How Important Is Lineage? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Lama Pai Sifu

12-17-2006, 12:54 PM

Everyone claims that there teachers is/was the best! It's only normal. Everyone likes to think that they are learning material from someone who could really use and understands/understood it well.

But how really important is this?

First of all, EVERYBODY'S teacher cannot be great. Within every generation, there a lot of bad ones, a group of good ones and a few great ones. The funny thing is, I never ever hear about the guys who weren't very good. Where are they? Where are the worst students (of a supposedly good teacher) who are now teaching? Everyone is always, the first student, (which they work the angle that they got the 'best' stuff) or the last student (which they work the angle of being the last one 'in' to bet the best stuff), etc.

Where are all the sucky students who decide to teach? We know that there are sucky students that trained with all our teachers when we trained (we - meaning everyone reading this). How did all the 'not-so-goods' start teaching and suddenly get good?

Additionally - so what if you trained with a famous martial arts, or for example, your teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher was a top student of Wong Fei Hung? What does that make you? Why does everyone think because they learned from someone who was (or was not) good, does that make them 'entitled' or automatically better than everyone esle?

Case in point; I think my teacher Chan Tai-San was a very good martial artist and fighter. I have met many people who have witnessed his fights and heard many cool stories about him (the best one's came from other people). I trained with him for quite along time. But what does that make me? Am I automatically good because my teacher was good?

I think my teacher was good, as I compare what he has taught me with what I have seen from other martial artists or sparred/worked out with other martial artists. THAT is why I think he was good. I actually didn't think he was amazing for the first couple of years, because I didnt' expose myself to a lot of other martial arts/artists to compare. I thought everyone learned all the same things. :) Plus, my teacher, in all honesty, wasn't a good 'teacher.' It took a lot of work on my part and my classmates together, to interpret our lessons. I have seen lots of people who trained with my teachers, some for several years, and still they arent' very good. So where does that leave us?

And it is not JUST the fact that he taught me the actual applications to movements. Many people learn to apply specific techniques. It IS however, a skilled CMA that can show you how and when to use it against others REALISTICALLY. We could probably agree that many teachers of CMA are out of touch with (or never there to begin with) the reality of actual combat. And if goes without saying that even some of the people who beleive that they are the few that 'get it', alas, may be some of the people that don't!

But still, what does that make me? Granted, I may have been privy to some cool insight and his approach/perspective of martial arts, and in many ways it may have been quite different from the average teacher (being tha CTS has actual COMBAT experiences - fighting in WWII, The Cultural Revolution, etc) and most teachers, even old Chinese of today, didn't. But does that make me better than the guy who studies with an unknown?

I was given a 'vessel of knowledge' (not to get all Kwai Chang Kain on you all) but it is up to ME to train and develope and create (yes, even create. Every generation creates, that is how we have come to have so many styles and tech. today). It is up to US, as martial artists to get better than our teachers (or the legends of those past - because some of the past is quite a bit of hype), to fight, to train, to teach and to work harder each and every day to become our best.

We seem to ride the coat tails of our teachers and our teachers before us (teachers of TCMA in general). And when we do, some people criticize. But then when someone talks about there own accomplishments, the same people often criticize and say that they are bragging or not giving enought respect to their lineage? Quite the double edged-sword in my opinion.

So why do we do it? Is there really a point in talking about one's lineage as it relates to their skill? Is anyone really priviledged because their teacher's teacher may have been skilled? And if he was, does that mean we are automatically 'skilled' as well, by association?

What do you think? My apologies if my thoughts are all over the place, I thought about a topic and then it took a life of it's own. But I am interested in hearing others thoughts...

Sidebar:
I find it refreshing that in the MMA community, no one really talks about their lineage. They don't talk about many things that we in the TCMA community, bicker and argue about. I wonder what that tells us?

IronWeasel

12-17-2006, 01:33 PM

SPJ

12-17-2006, 01:42 PM

Everything is relative.

the first student may stay with the teacher the longest time, therefore have more "lessons".

the last or youngest student will outlive the teacher and the first student, he or she has the responsiblity to pass on more "refined" stuff.

good or suck is all relative, too.

Dong Hai Chuan had so many students. each took the style "differently",

Yin Fu was good with Tan Tui, Shaolin fist: Luo Han Shou,. so his Ba Gua had a lot of strikes and kicks.

Cheng Ting Hua knew Shuai Jiao, so there are a lot of throws.

They both had a lot of students. So they are well known.

Shi Ji Dong hosted Dong at his late life. Shi taught most of his stuff to Liang. Liang also learned some finer stuff from Dong. And Liang Zhen Pu was the final student.

my point is that even though people pay more attention to the first and last student.

However, who ever propagate the style more or have more students will be most known.

Fan and Ma are less well know however, they had good students,too. Ma had Wang Pei Sheng who was also well known for Wu Tai Chi.

lineage is only a reference point that where your stuff came from or learned from.

how you take the art/style from that learning is entirely up to you.

--

:)

ginosifu

12-17-2006, 03:24 PM

Lineage may be important to some people, this is obvious by these threads.

Lets examine why you would or would not look at someone's lineage.

If someone's lineage is famous or plays an important role in which style you chose. Like in Hung Gar: Would you want to study under Lam Tsai Wing or Tang Fang Lineage. Some people like they way Tang Fang forms move. Some people like the power in Lam Tsai Wing Forms. In the end... if both styles teach the principles and theories of the system, there really is no difference in lineage. Just what flavour you like.

Now what if a master of a true kung fu style, and they possess great skill and mastery of their system, but their style is a small unknown family style. How would you research his lineage? You really can not.

What would it matter if your teacher's teacher's teacher was the sucky Chef or gardener? Lineage is not as important as the amount of love or enthusiasum you have for the given style. Thru out history of all or any styles, sucky student teach. Eventually a sucky student's, student's student was somebody famous. This may not be a great example but Northern shaolin master Ku Yu Cheong's teacher was Yim Kai Wan... really not a well known for anything spactacular.

When you look it closely, if you are happy with your sifu or instructor, lineage does not matter. (I understand about frauds... let say they are not.)

Ginosifu

ginosifu

12-17-2006, 03:32 PM

Frauds have been making up styles for ever!! I am not talking about those individuals. Frauds will take advantage of naive students no matter what you do.

I am talking about legitimate kung fu styles and teachers. If there was an unknown small family style teacher who's lineage can not be verified, would you study with him or her? What if this teacher is really the chef that has watched from the back room for the last 20 years. He has all of the system info but he's the sucky one?

It comes done this fact - If you can not verify someones lineage will you study with them?

I say that lineage is not the thing you should be looking at. Naive students need to get to know the instructor and see if there philosophy and your are alike. Advanced students need to train or practice with the teacher, see how they move and teach... do you like what they are doing?

I have been practicing / teaching for almost 20 years now and I tell how a person moves just by watching walk or perform. If they have kung fu, I can pretty much tell during the first few moments.

BTW kal, I read the article... http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Dave%27sF/Confess.html. It deals only with fraud. Fraud is a whole other thread.

I am saying lineage of honest peeps, do you really need to see there lineage if you love their style?

Ginosifu

kal

12-17-2006, 03:41 PM

No; lineage does not automatically mean you are any good. But this is not an excuse for frauds to make up their own rubbish and pass it off as being genuine kung fu.

Here is a fantastic article about this whole phenomenon which also shows why the whole "I only care if it works" argument is flawed.

http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Dave%27sF/Confess.html

The article was written with regard to Japanese martial arts, but that doesn't matter. Everything he says about koryu (classical Japanese arts, as opposed to the modern budo) is applicable to genuine Chinese arts as well.

Yao Sing

12-17-2006, 05:11 PM

I'm kind of split on this issue. On one hand it's important if you intend to pass on the system or your primary interest is in learning an ancient art.

On the other hand it doesn't really matter if you're just looking for a good workout or your primary focus is on fighting (sport or self defense).

By providing references to the source of your training you can conclude that what you have to learn/teach is actual/authentic/traditional martial arts, and not a sequence of movements that have been 'made up'.

I still have a bit of an issue with this 'made up' concept. It's all 'made up' so where do you draw the line? How many years or generations have to go by before a 'made up' sequence of mevements is acceptable?

kal

12-17-2006, 05:19 PM

I still have a bit of an issue with this 'made up' concept. It's all 'made up' so where do you draw the line? How many years or generations have to go by before a 'made up' sequence of mevements is acceptable?

Good question!

I have a simple policy: making up stuff and being honest about it is acceptable; making up stuff and LYING about where it came from is not!

(Personally I can't understand why people would want to make up their own so-called CMA when there are so many genuine ones in existence. Why reinent the wheel? But that's just my taste. I don't really have a problem with people who make up their own stuff, as long as they don't claim it is something it's not. Such systems should stand or fall on their own merits. I do have a huge problem with liars though. )

SPJ

12-17-2006, 05:44 PM

here is the lineage of the day or du jour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZm2Cm4TXR0&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AasSPOOWWRc

:D :)

ginosifu

12-17-2006, 06:19 PM

I think you guys are a bit hung up on frauds. Yes I think we can all agree that frauds are out there they make up junk bla bla bla bla bla.

Lets get back to the original thread. Take away the fraud and see if there is any good or bad comments about lineage. Why should we look at lineage? (besides fraud)?

Do you use lineage to decide which style of hung gar (lam tsai wing or tang fang etc etc)? Does lineage help you to use teacher A or teacher B of a given system. What does lineage do for you?

Ginosifu :p

samson818

12-18-2006, 02:00 AM

I really like this thread Sifu Parrella,

I totally agree, even under just one school, there are skilled students and not so skilled students.

This depends on many things and there are too many variables to formulate a justification on which lineage/teacher produces "better" students.

There are constants that seem to show themselves in good kung fu groups, but no one formula.

Even within your school, I am sure some of your students are more gifted or harder working than others. And I'm sure you dont hold back from them...
For some, kung fu is a number one priority, for others its simply a leisurely activity.

I've learned to first meet and touch hands with the man, and ask him lineage questions after.

5Animals1Path

12-18-2006, 05:04 AM

I could really care who someone's studied with. I care a whole lot more about whether or not they're any good, and if they can teach me to be any good.

This isn't to say I don't like hearing my Sifu's stories about being trained, but to me, they're just cool stories. Maybe he's embelleshed, maybe he hasn't(Cause I know for a fact he likes to screw with me). Don't spend too much time thinkin about it though, cause it's got jack-all to do with whether or not I'm learning how to kick some butt.

mantiskilla

12-18-2006, 06:43 AM

it just gives you an idea of the persons hands. sh!t teachers will create sh!t students no matter how hard the students try. good teachers can also have sh!t students, BUT only good teachers will make good students, so lineage at least gives you an idea. But JUST an idea. There is a lot of crap out there that is tied to good lineage...maybe they just were not good students, maybe they didnt get all of the material, maybe they just cant fight no matter how well they know the material. There are too many factors for lineage to be a decisive answer.

"Quote:
I find it refreshing that in the MMA community, no one really talks about their lineage. They don't talk about many things that we in the TCMA community, bicker and argue about. I wonder what that tells us?"

BTW, i dont believe this is true at all. I always hear on UFC, "so and so trains with this *insert name*camp", "so and so trains with so and so"...what is this? Sounds like the same thing to me. The Gracie's are obviously another lineage people point out all the time...give it another 50-75 years and MMA will be talking about the same crap, BUT the difference between them and most kung fu is that they get in and prove it.

__________________

BruceSteveRoy

12-18-2006, 07:36 AM

wow good thread. i think lineage is one of those things that people look at as a verification of credientials. its like the way you go to your doctor's office and he has his diploma on the wall. it reassures you as the patient that he is legit. of course he could have had one forged just like so many people insert themselves into lineages that they have no business being in. does being in a given lineage make you a good fighter? of course not. does it make you a good teacher? again no. just like having your MD diploma on the wall doesnt make you a good doctor. but as a patient you can go to a doctor and know if you are getting better. you can feel if you are getting the desired result. as a MA student you should be able to tell the same things. i don't think many of us are foolish enough to think we can fight when we can't. we may not admit it but we know whether or not we know how to apply techniques and if after knowing how we can actually do it. but before i get off topic does lineage matter? not really. ooo unless you can summon the spirit of past masters to come down and do your fighting for you. if you can i want to see it bc that would be bada$$.

the other thing i wanted to say is that the point about looking at lineage to help a student determine which branch of a given style suits them best is a very good point. the problem is people that are in a given branch tend to say theirs is better than the others. i'm not going to say they are wrong but i will say i disagree. a technique is a technique. it is a thought. it has only as much use or power as the person doing it. so a lineage's way of doing it will suit different people. and each lineage will have its stars and its bad students.

djcaldwell

12-18-2006, 11:44 AM

There are obviously many views on lineage and it's impact on ones training. Personally, and from what I've read and agree with is that it bears no impact on ones ability. Lineage defined is the line of descent from an ancestor to a person or family. That's all it is nothing more, nothing less. A method of tracking where the information came from. The quality of the information and it's dissemniation from one generation to the next changes. In some instances it may improve and be expanced upon while in others it may loose all of its intended value. Regardless, being heir to a line doesn't mean that the person holding the lineage is any good at all.

One thing that has molded my view on lineage is the change in civilization as a whole. When lineages were "key" to the survival of the family it was something that was passed down to few. Families passed along their "secret techniques" their systems only to their family (by which this often meant an entire village) members. In a world where they fought on a regular basis for survival this was imperative not to have ones weaknesses / strengths exposed for the whole world to see.

As the generations have passed and times change we arrive at today. Martial arts are widespread. The "martial" aspects of it in most systems has been all but lost as there is no need for weekly and daily battles for survival. Challenges everywhere except on forums are all but non-existent and the orginal intent of the art being passed is not the same. So where as say 200 years ago you looked at a student from so and so's family and they said - forget it those guys will kick our arsce - because it was that they were all taught to fight and their line was reknown for same. Now 200 years later with the dillusion of MA and no disrespect intended, but the caliber of practitioners having changed by nature - you can't look at the same line and say that because unless their fighting all the time...you just don't know.

Before anyone uproars, I'm not saying that core content in every system is lost as it is not. But the intent by means of our society and way of life is not the same. As for the content, it does and MUST change. Recently, I had the honor of having dinner while in HK with Lau Kar Leung and Lau Kar Wing who we all I trust agree are phenominal martial artists first and foremost. They expressed something which I guess I didn't expect and that was that Kung Fu has to change to survive. Keep the core, you need that but EXPAND ON IT.

Kung Fu is alive it is a living thing which must grow and change or else it will die. Lineage is already dead so to look back on it and presume to know that in this day and age someone is good because of something that another person may have done 100 years ago is ridicuouls. Look at what you have now - how good your skills are, your teachers skills are and are you able to take that core and apply it to what you need to do TODAY.

Just my two cents.

SevenStar

12-18-2006, 12:02 PM

One reason that lineage is important is that it establishes the credibility of your material.

By providing references to the source of your training you can conclude that what you have to learn/teach is actual/authentic/traditional martial arts, and not a sequence of movements that have been 'made up'.

Esoteric martial art forms can be useful, but some people may give names to these 'forms' and try to pass them off as part of a traditional system.

shouldn't the product of your teacher's instruction provide more credibility? If I am faced to train at either a place who has a very credible lineage but has problems turning out fighters, or training at a shaolin do school known for the quality of the fighters it produces, then I'm going to the shaolin do school.

SevenStar

12-18-2006, 12:17 PM

"Quote:
I find it refreshing that in the MMA community, no one really talks about their lineage. They don't talk about many things that we in the TCMA community, bicker and argue about. I wonder what that tells us?"

BTW, i dont believe this is true at all. I always hear on UFC, "so and so trains with this *insert name*camp", "so and so trains with so and so"...what is this? Sounds like the same thing to me. The Gracie's are obviously another lineage people point out all the time...give it another 50-75 years and MMA will be talking about the same crap, BUT the difference between them and most kung fu is that they get in and prove it.

in mma and muay thai, those are far more rare. In bjj, you see them quite a bit, but not to the depth that you see them on cma forums. However, even in these discussions, certain skill levels generally aren't assumed because someone trained under a certain lineage or is affiliated with a certain person. More common are school names - through competing, you start too see certain schools which always do well, and they establish a rep as being good. So someone ask's where you train and they say "SevenStar's bjj," then they are either like "hmm... never heard of them - do they compete much" "I rememver them, they suck," or "yeah, that's a pretty good school". Overall, lineage is looked over. The gracies (sticking with your example) have just as many crappy students as they do good ones.

SevenStar

12-18-2006, 12:20 PM

ooo unless you can summon the spirit of past masters to come down and do your fighting for you. if you can i want to see it bc that would be bada$$.

are you a "shaman king" fan?

lkfmdc

12-18-2006, 12:32 PM

I waited a while to post on this thread, to consider what I really believe... after years of doing this stuff, I finally think

LINEAGE MEANS NOTHING

Far too many people live off their lineage. If their lineage had great fighters in the past, the must be a fighter. If their teacher was great, they must be great.

CTS was a great man with some great lineages, not all my classmates are created equal, some have very minor skills.

As for the "those who learned crap"... If you learned crap and are still doing it, that says a lot about YOU. Most who learn crap move on, or at least add to it.

I really think that lineage obsession is one of the many diseases plaguing CMA today

cjurakpt

12-18-2006, 01:03 PM

I agree with the perspective that just cause you studied with a "great" (read: well-known") teacher doesn't mean a great deal in terms of one's own abilities;

where it can be of interest is in terms of the archeological aspect of tracing back where your "stuff" came from, why it's the way it is, etc. etc. - nothing to do with fighting though...

for example, my teacher's taiji lineage is a very uncommon one: we trace directly to Yang Lu Chan, but not through any of the established lines; this is of relevance because of a) how we do the form, in terms of what moves are still in it versus ones that were deleted later on for various reasons; b) why we tend to view the form from a taoist alchemical perspective, as opposed to just physical health or martial usage; knowing our lineage and the people in it, their background, training, perspective etc. helps to tease out the "truths" about what has come down to us; again, very little to do with fighting per se

so lineage has its place, it's like a map on which you orient yourself - but it's not the map itself that's going to save you from the wilderness...

omarthefish

12-18-2006, 02:13 PM

... it's like a map on which you orient yourself - but it's not the map itself that's going to save you from the wilderness...

That's roughly how my own teacher described it's "importance". It just desribes relationships. It's really important to us because from a CULTURAL perspective, ignoring it would be....uh...."unfilial"? We pay close attention to our own as a matter of respect and to re-inforce the idea that (for those of us actuall in it) we do not simply represent ourselves. We represent our teachers. Where people get it wrong and what I think lkfmdc is on about is how people reverse that last part and go around thinking that their famous teachers represent THEMSELVES. I think that was confusing so put another way:

NOT

- My teacher was great so you can expect I am great

BUT RATHER

- I am great so you can expect my teacher was too.

That second thing is what lineage implies. If you are representing a lineage then you must never forget that it's the lineage that will be judged by YOUR actions, not the other way around.

p.s.

It's kind of like just this old Chinese thing of not being willing to directly take credit or accept praise. You always deflect the credit upwards toward your teacher or school or somewhere else.

Shadow Skill

12-18-2006, 02:36 PM

I think knowing your lineage is important, to me it's like knowing who your parents are. And if you are going to teach it's just something you should know.

But sometimes a lineage that is well known can bite you in the a$$ if you have no hands. Lets say you train w/ monk Pai mai and he's great. People would have an an expectation of you. Good teach good student theory you may have more people who want to test your kung fu. What if you are that 1 guy in class that just sucks ( we all know at last one of those) and you get your a$$ handed to you. You look bad, Teacher looks bad, School looks bad, Style looks bad.

On the other hand it may keep you out of situations. I met this guy and he actually was dumb enough to challenge my Sifu while he was teaching (short version of the tory) and got busted up. (this happened before I met him). I met this guy at a friends house and someone told him I know kung fu. At first his attitude was like 'lets see what you got' and he asked me what style I told him and instantly his tone of voice changed and he was like your sifu is so skilled blah, blah blah, I have so much respect for him blah, blah, blah. then he said something after that. He said Man I would never fight one of his students I know how he trains you guys I would never fight any of you. Now what if I was that sucky student my teaches name would've saved my a$$.

Truth is the only thing that matteres is when it comes down to it, can you or can't you do it

MonkeyKingUSA

12-18-2006, 02:52 PM

Friends,
I have never considered lineage to be very important.
In the 60's when I first started training in CMA it wasn't considered proper to ask. By the 80's I had realized that most of the lineage stories were more fiction than fact. So I learned to take the stories I heard with a grain of salt. I am quick to tell my students "this is the legend of our style".
Besides, I have changed what I have learned to fit myself and my students. I think many instructors do this. Is this fraudulant, or just being practical?
I have always felt that the best way to judge an instructor is by his students, not his teacher(s).

TaiXu

12-18-2006, 02:52 PM

The bad teachers...
(About 20years ago) My father and his friends learned from a bad teacher. They thought the stuff they were being taugh was pretty good. They were at a bar and everyone was dancing. Their teacher was goofing off and doing some martial arts stuff and someone started a fight with him. He got beat really badly. After that they picked up another style(wushu) and found it way better. They picked it up quickly considering they didn't want to be like that guy. Later my dad taught me wushu.

My teacher won't teach people who have learned animal styles or animal mimicry unless under special circumstances. He thinks animal styles may be useful in combat, but they will never know the Tao.

The bad students...
They're out there. I mean there are a few ways of saying "bad student." One who never works, one who never studies, or someone who does bad things with his style. I've seen some at martial arts tournaments. Most who are bad won't even compete though. I've met a lot of good fighters who are hot heads and just have to show off to the lesser skilled. To me that is a bad student.

Makin' stuff up...
For newly established schools it can be kinda hard to get established. This can be for a few reasons. Some schools don't have many students, some are evil, and some are good (but they have to prove it). As someone else said "some people just make up some stuff." Some other people just borrow things from this school and that school and they end up with 5 different schools mixed up. Not to say that their practice is bad, but it isn't pure. Some people go to the mountains for many years and come back and they know kung fu. Even the experts will say he is quite skilled, but he can't teach anyone what he knows. He may not think he's good enough to teach or maybe he can't talk well.

Well known...
Shaolin. Ever hear about an unskilled Shaolin student? I've heard of lazy Shaolin, I've even heard of some going rogue and becoming bad later, but never an unskilled. It takes a lot for a good school to become low. I've heard before the Cultural Revolution there used to be way more schools. They were everywhere. So many people wanted to know. There are still a lot, but I wonder how good they were.

IronWeasel

12-18-2006, 09:54 PM

shouldn't the product of your teacher's instruction provide more credibility? If I am faced to train at either a place who has a very credible lineage but has problems turning out fighters, or training at a shaolin do school known for the quality of the fighters it produces, then I'm going to the shaolin do school.

This is important as well. I was only speaking of the material taught. If I join a Mantis school, I want to be sure that I can learn Bung Bo, and not just 'Tom's Cool Mantis-looking Form' that he made up last Monday. While Tom's may be just fine, and chock full of cool moves...I want the authentic instruction as well.

The authentic material might not serve you as well with a poor instructor, as you say. "What do you teach, and how well do you teach it?", sums up the search for a good instructor.

SPJ

12-18-2006, 10:03 PM

To the outsider, the grouping of schools into Liu (Ryu) Pai is for categorization and association.

Hei, what do you practice?

"Tai Chi" oh what substyle? "Chen"

--

For insider of the style, then you start to be more specific.

my teacher's teacher learned from Chen Fa Ke's father etc.

--

the conversation only says about where you learned your practice.

that is it. there is no saying you are good or sucky.

--

:D

lunghushan

12-18-2006, 10:05 PM

Lama Pai Sifu

12-19-2006, 07:03 AM

Your lineage (Lama Pai) is your selling point.

If your teacher wasn't so badass as everybody thinks, and there weren't more stories about him, then you would have to come up with other methods of talking people into spending so many $$$ for training and spending so much of their lives learning arcane forms.

So as somebody who banks on lineage, it is a bit ironic that you would ask the question.

First of all, coming from me, an instructor who has been teaching the public for almost 19 years, I can tell you one thing; ALMOST NO ONE COMES INTO MY SCHOOLS (OR ALMOST ANY FOR THAT MATTER) AND SAYS THAT THEY HEARD ABOUT YOU AND YOUR LINEAGE AND WANT TO TRAIN WITH YOU. It just doesn't happen. People train with you because they respond to an ad, they meet one of your students, they see a demo or they walk/drive by and see your school. Barring some other variants of these, THAT IS IT. Very few people if any, walk through my doors each year looking for Lama Pai or Choy Lay Fut, not to mention Chan Tai-San. That is just the hard facts. If you had a school, I'm sure you would know that.

Secondly, you sound like you have some kind of axe to grind with me as well? What exactly is YOUR problem, buddy? I talk people into spending their money? If it wasn't for my teacher, I would need a different way to talk them into it? Get real. Do you know what I tell prospective students when they enter my schools? NO,...so why don't you just STFU and participate in the conversation like an adult and not a little girl trying to be a comedian.

Banking on lineage? Lineage a selling point? Hardly. Maybe for the small school that has 20 students, and who THINK that lineage has something to do with it. No, it actually takes hard work and lots of time to run a successful school. You have to study business, teaching, science, etc. It would be neat however, if all I had to do was hang a sign that said who my teacher was and people would hand me money.

Maybe if some schools focused less on what their teachers could do and focues more on what they could do for the prospective students, more KF schools would be successful. :)

Not to mention that I and my classmates talk my teacher on this forum, and probably no where else. My Sifu is not really a topic of discussion in my schools. He comes up occasionally, but most of my students probably don't know who he even is.

Now, why don't you finish trying to be cute and start playing nice with the grown-ups?

And I remember you from the needle in cotton thread, trying (and succeeding) to be a tool. Are you a teenager? How old are you actually? And please, please don't start making this thread about YOU. There is a poinent discussion taking place on this thread, which happens rarely as it is here, try not to muck it up with 6 posts per day of dribble. :)

samson818

12-19-2006, 07:16 AM

Actually, I dont think 90% of the population training in martial arts schools know their history or lineage.

There are a few martial arts nuts, such as the ones on this forum, who really learn about their style history, lineage, stories, etc.

lkfmdc

12-19-2006, 07:53 AM

Mike, to fully enjoy the forum you must remember one basic rule

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS

Be well, happy holidays, happy festivus

Ray Pina

12-19-2006, 08:05 AM

This is one of those common sense things:

I wanted to learn Ba Gua (internal). I hunted out a man who I kept hearing was a good fighter, a guy who beat a lot of guys in the 70s, 80s and 90s. A guy who in his 60s still accepted people.

I found. I saw he could use his skill. I was stoked. Later I learned about his lineage and in Ba Gua, it's about as good as it could get. Same with Hsing-I. Taiji, not so much so but the other two really boosted the former.

I wanted to learn BJJ. I went to Renzo Gracie's school. Not only does the head instructor compete professionally -- and wins -- but his students do to. I knew that going in, and was not let down... only pleasantly surprised but how easy going everyone is.

Can you get quality instruction from a nobody? Yes! I think my students do and I'm going to miss them when I move.

I have no reputation, but I have learned good stuff from good people and have tested it. It works. Not always... because sometimes the other guy is better. Sometimes they bring more. That's why we train. That's why it's a lifetime.

Honestly, I believe any adult knows inside if their training is not pointing them where they want to go. Some rationalise it by warping a blend of where they are going, where they want to be and some idealized version og chi/karma and will get good by taking it easy. Others are comfortable with where they are going even though it is not towards real combat proficiency.

One thing though, one has to understand relativity: there's good in point sparring, there's good in demonstration and then there's good in for real against unknowns, be it in full out competition of against an agressor on the street.

SPJ

12-19-2006, 09:01 AM

Agreed. people may or may not check your reference or teacher.

but people would definately check YOU out before joining your school.

it is you that establish yourself with hardwork over the years.

--

:)

Lama Pai Sifu

12-19-2006, 09:32 AM

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 11:06 AM

Secondly, you sound like you have some kind of axe to grind with me as well? What exactly is YOUR problem, buddy? I talk people into spending their money? If it wasn't for my teacher, I would need a different way to talk them into it? Get real. Do you know what I tell prospective students when they enter my schools? NO,...so why don't you just STFU and participate in the conversation like an adult and not a little girl trying to be a comedian.

...

And I remember you from the needle in cotton thread, trying (and succeeding) to be a tool. Are you a teenager? How old are you actually? And please, please don't start making this thread about YOU. There is a poinent discussion taking place on this thread, which happens rarely as it is here, try not to muck it up with 6 posts per day of dribble. :)

I've got nothing against you at all. I'm just saying it is a bit ironic to call yourself 'Lama Pai Sifu' (Lama Pai being your lineage), and then ask how important lineage is. Obviously it is very important to YOU.

As for the teenager, I've followed enough of your posts on here and the rest of your Lama buddies, and your posts with Doo Wai and Bak Fu Pai, that it is also a bit ironic to be calling somebody else a teenager. LOL You and the BFP guys carried on like a bunch of ... :)

The Willow Sword

12-19-2006, 11:15 AM

It was and still is important to me because it gives a record of the transmission of viable and tested tried and true information. Sure that this information can be expanded on and changed, it evolves with the times, but the fact remains that the foundations of what we as martial artists learn is poured and set by those who came before us and created the lineage. SOme may feel that lineage is not so important because lineage in of itself does not make one a better fighter, What lineage DOES accomplish is that at least one is getting a legitamate source of material from with to draw from and evolve to ones own ability.

Lineage at SD was important to me in the begining because i wished to make a career out of teaching martial arts, and naively i thought that what i was learning was something that had legitamate ties and a background, because in the world of buisness reputation is everything. This may seem like ego but this is America, and ego abounds, as does mine in the realm of legitamacy in what i was learning and wanting to teach to others.

Doing the research that i did and listening to the good people who opened my eyes to certain "realities", i was able to see a truth not very well caught, because we seem to want the quick fix in our instruction, or we want that grand glorious story that makes us feel grand that we are learning something from a legit source.
Of course we all realize now that legitamacy in martial arts doesnt make one a better martial artist or a better fighter, it just makes us "credible".
My efforts to have the questions i seek have yet to be answered and i patiently await those answers, should they never come, then i will keep the mindset i have about it all.
I think that i am fortunate in that now being a rogue that does seminars from time to time and who creates from what i have learned in the past, be they from credible and respected sources or not, i can discern for myself NOW what is and what is not credible. True i have moved on to the healing arts now but the healing arts have their own lineage and credability, and thankfully where i am at is very much so respected and regarded as such. Which makes it better for me as one who wishes to have his own buisness and have a good background.

SO i say that if you dont care about the history and the lineage, dont discount those of us who do make it a priority, because i think i am correct in assuming that those of us who DO Make lineage a priority do not base our skills on just lineage alone if at all.

Peace and have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, TWS

Shaolinlueb

12-19-2006, 12:11 PM

its semi important i guess to me.

i like to know where my stuff comes from. but who teaches me it doesnt really matter. that person just has to be good.

i tell people who my teachers first teacher was and most masters are former students and ignore me, or some just walk away. so is it important to me? not too much.

ginosifu

12-19-2006, 01:07 PM

First of all, coming from me, an instructor who has been teaching the public for almost 19 years, I can tell you one thing; ALMOST NO ONE COMES INTO MY SCHOOLS (OR ALMOST ANY FOR THAT MATTER) AND SAYS THAT THEY HEARD ABOUT YOU AND YOUR LINEAGE AND WANT TO TRAIN WITH YOU. It just doesn't happen. People train with you because they respond to an ad, they meet one of your students, they see a demo or they walk/drive by and see your school. Barring some other variants of these, THAT IS IT. Very few people if any, walk through my doors each year looking for Lama Pai or Choy Lay Fut, not to mention Chan Tai-San. That is just the hard facts. If you had a school, I'm sure you would know that.

I agree with Lama Pai Sifu. I have the students join after they have seen an ad or was refferred by one of my students etc etc.! 99% of the time perspective students have no clue what a lineage is or even if it is something they need to think about.

Advanced students with some training in CMA or JMA or KMA, etc etc. they may want to switch styles and may look at your lineage only because they know that there is a desicion to be made by looking. What I am mean is this:

If you have 2 different flavours of Northern Shaolin (Wing Lam Lineage and Lai Hung Lineage) and both of the schools are within driving distance to you... which do you chose? One teachers forms look a certain way and the other looks just a bit different?

A) chose the lineage that produces the best fighters?

B) chose the lineage with the flavour / style forms you like?

C) chose the lineage with the teachers philosophy that you agree with?

D) chose the lineage that may or may not teach religion with thier martial arts?

E) chose the lineage that is closest driving wise to you?

There are probably other reasons to chose but, for naive / newbs they do not need lineage. For students well versed in CMA, lineage might important to some people. Not for me... I need to sit down and talk with the Sifu or watch how they move or do a trail or introductory class to check out there stuff.

Good thread
Ginosifu:p

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 01:13 PM

I agree with Lama Pai Sifu. I have the students join after they have seen an ad or was refferred by one of my students etc etc.! 99% of the time perspective students have no clue what a lineage is or even if it is something they need to think about.

It still seems like you'd have a harder sell if you didn't have a sales pitch. Every school I've been to had a sales pitch.

Aikido sells itself as the non-violent martial art from Japan where O-Sensei was a bad-ass.

Karate usually sells itself as the kick-ass martial art from Japan (ironically, considering it didn't even come from there) where Oyama or Funakoshi or somebody was a bad-ass.

Hung Gar, Lam Sai Wing or whoever.

Even USSD has Steve Demasco and Shaolin, etc.

If you had a school without any lineage, unless you could prove yourself through fighting or competition or something, you'd have to make up quite a good story to get people to study there, I would think.

Look at it this way. How many schools with great lineage can get away with little to no fighting applications? How many schools are there which actually have no lineage? Learned on the 'street'?

ginosifu

12-19-2006, 01:32 PM

It still seems like you'd have a harder sell if you didn't have a sales pitch. Every school I've been to had a sales pitch.

I have NO sales pitch. I teach a traditional Chinese Martial arts class whether for kids or for adults. Everyone.... and I do mean everyone found a flyer / saw an ad / drove by the school and ask me how much for KARATE lessons (no Pun intended). I have i big sign on my door thta states CHINESE KUNG FU !!!

If you own a martial arts school, you will know that the lay people do not have a clue about any lineage / style / chinese or japanese & 99% of what's being said on this thread.

Every day somebody calls me and says "I drove by your school today, how much are lessons" Thats it..... no lineage no who's your teacher... why style do you teach... NOTHING.

And as far as a sales pitch... I give a trial course let them see what I am about. If they like me, they will join if not.. that's ok too.

Ginosifu:p

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 01:37 PM

I have NO sales pitch. I teach a traditional Chinese Martial arts class whether for kids or for adults. Everyone.... and I do mean everyone found a flyer / saw an ad / drove by the school and ask me how much for KARATE lessons (no Pun intended). I have i big sign on my door thta states CHINESE KUNG FU !!!

If you own a martial arts school, you will know that the lay people do not have a clue about any lineage / style / chinese or japanese & 99% of what's being said on this thread.

Every day somebody calls me and says "I drove by your school today, how much are lessons" Thats it..... no lineage no who's your teacher... why style do you teach... NOTHING.

And as far as a sales pitch... I give a trial course let them see what I am about. If they like me, they will join if not.. that's ok too.

Ginosifu:p

Really? Every school I've ever gone to had a sales pitch. Or maybe it's because I've asked them about what they're doing.

But no, I don't own a martial arts school. I can't think of anything more boring than teaching idiots martial arts for a living.

BruceSteveRoy

12-19-2006, 01:39 PM

so are you calling everyone here (including yourself) an idiot?

lkfmdc

12-19-2006, 01:40 PM

I can't think of anything more boring than teaching idiots martial arts

I'm sure that's exactly what your instructor is thinking.....

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 01:41 PM

so are you calling everyone here (including yourself) an idiot?

If you assume a bell curve, and the vast majority of people are of limited intelligence, with some falling more on the side of idiocy, then if you open a school and let anybody in, then you'd be teaching a fair percentage of mediocre people and idiots.

That would be pretty annoying, if you ask me. Trust me, I've been to a lot of schools and I don't think I'd have the patience for that. There's a reason most older instructors have their senior students do most of the teaching.

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 01:48 PM

I'm sure that's exactly what your instructor is thinking.....

Yeah, this coming from Mr. Chipmunk himself. LOL

Actually one of my instructors said that his teacher went out searching for people to teach. He didn't teach for money, so he was extremely selective. He found you, not the other way around.

But most martial arts teachers these days are no better than the average working slave.

BruceSteveRoy

12-19-2006, 01:48 PM

if you assume a bell curve the majority of people are of average intelligence. so what you mean to say you don't want to teach people of average intelligence?

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 01:59 PM

if you assume a bell curve the majority of people are of average intelligence. so what you mean to say you don't want to teach people of average intelligence?

I wouldn't want to teach anybody who didn't have an aptitude for more complicated forms and techniques. Let's put it that way. Besides, most people drop out of martial arts within a few years anyway so it would get pretty boring.

BruceSteveRoy

12-19-2006, 02:02 PM

to each their own.

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 02:05 PM

to each their own.

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of people I've met who seem fine with teaching the same thing over and over again, and not progressing either in their lives or having their students progress much. They seem to enjoy teaching the same form over and over and over again to a new crop of students every year.

Those people are probably better suited to running martial arts schools.

Lama Pai Sifu

12-19-2006, 02:26 PM

I've got nothing against you at all. I'm just saying it is a bit ironic to call yourself 'Lama Pai Sifu' (Lama Pai being your lineage), and then ask how important lineage is. Obviously it is very important to YOU.

But most martial arts teachers these days are no better than the average working slave.

What is with this guy?

What's with you and the 'sales pitch' stuff? I don't 'pitch' my lineage. How do you think that I 'pitch' my lineage because I use my style in my screenname?? How do you make any sense of that? Silly rabbit, if you knew any better, you'd know that I don't even teach the Lama style to my general student body, they learn Choy Lay Fut. I teach Lama to them after a few years of training in CLF or they learn some Lama through seminars or clinics along the way.

A screen name, just identifies you amoungst your fellow poster...how you get 'sales pitch' out of that, is beyone me. A sales pitch, would be 'a unique selling position, which one might 'present' to a prospective student, in order to demonstrate the benefits of training at my school.' Still, I hardly see that a screenname could possibly qualify as such. Not withstanding the fact that I ALREADY mentioned in a previous post that most students have no prior knowledge of the style we train in here...

Now if I named myself after all the dead teachers in my family lineage as part of my screenname, THEN one might think that it's important (as you said), but it still has nothing to do with a sales pitch. :confused:

And although you say you don't have a problem, you sure sound like you do. Many of your other posts were poor attempts to make fun of the Lama style, commenting on swing arm movements and and ape and crane b.s. But the way you said it, you were obviously trolling and trying to make fun.....