YESSSS!!! Dog Boxing....

[mickey]

Greetings,


Found on youtube.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcPlwAOkl6I


Enjoy,

mickey

[MasterKiller]

So what it proves is that the most advanced ground fighting style CMA offers operates under the assumption that the other guy will not follow you to the ground.

[omarthefish]

I could have told you that without the video.

It doesn't really "prove" it but it's still true and old news too. (for some of us anyways)

Last time I saw any of this stuff was from a Chinese retired army dude. His "groundwork" all was based on the assumption that your opponent had a bayonet.

[Juan Nowon]

So what it proves is that the most advanced ground fighting style CMA offers operates under the assumption that the other guy will not follow you to the ground.

I'm curious as to where "Dog Boxing" was claimed/ assumed to be the most effective CMA ground fighting style? Maybee I'm missing something here.

I havn't read, anywhere, that "Dog Boxing" was the most effective CMA ground fighting style. Maybee someone can help me out here.

Thank you in advance.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i dont even know what to say about that.

ill watch it again tomorrow from work, but i have a feeling my opinion wont change.

[Ray Pina]

Read a lot about Dog Boxing and now that I have seen it I can go back to feeling completely unthreatened by CMA.

[Knifefighter]

I sparred some "dog boxers" a while back... definitely not much when compared to BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, or Judo.

[Yao Sing]

I fail to see the purpose in some of them and most are just playing into the hands of a grappler.

Why jump and pull a guy into your guard then push him away with both feet? I don't get it.

[lkfmdc]

I fail to see the purpose in some of them and most are just playing into the hands of a grappler.

Why jump and pull a guy into your guard then push him away with both feet? I don't get it.

I was going to write and ask why KNifefighter didn't comment on that, I mean, a guard jump in TCMA... as for the idea, I'd have to look at the clip again, but if after he slib down the legs he also grabbed teh ankels then the "kick" could be used as a sweep to get a top position....

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Read a lot about Dog Boxing and now that I have seen it I can go back to feeling completely unthreatened by CMA.

Aww, you got to give them SOME credit! There are a few good things there, from a straight self defense point of view...

But as far as from a 'combat' perspective, ...not really.

[Knifefighter]

There are a few good things there, from a straight self defense point of view...
What parts would that be?

[lkfmdc]

What parts would that be?

Kicking up from the ground is a perfectly reasonable and applicable skill, especially when they hook the ankles like they are doing there... in principle similar to some of the guard tactics used to set up sweeps even

Falling to the ground and kicking up to the groin is also a workable technique

TMA or TCMA is just like old school Japanese Jiu Jitsu, some of the tactics/tricks are fine, but if you don't train properly HOW to use them, they can be silly

[Yao Sing]

Wah Lum has a lot of those moves but some are just plain silly. Like slipping through the guys legs and kicking his butt. Why bother? Leave that stuff for the Jackie Chan flicks.

And I don't think he was grabbing the ankles on the one I mentioned earlier. He just pushed him away.

I'll watch it again myself but a lot of them look like they could easily take a turn for the worst.

[Ray Pina]

It wasn't so much the moves -- a child on his back knows to kick his feet up when an adult standing over them is being a pain in the a$$ -- it was the lack of intent, the hoppy, flippy, ungrounded, undisciplined structure and mechanics that tells me.... this guy can't fight.

Now, I understand it could be just that guy. So I imagined a guy my size or even larger spending his training time doing the same form but with intent... and then came to the conclusion that if that is how he's spending his time, if doing that form or forms like it ranks high in the styles training priorities, I should lose sleep over it.

[mantis108]

Wah Lum has a lot of those moves but some are just plain silly. Like slipping through the guys legs and kicking his butt. Why bother? Leave that stuff for the Jackie Chan flicks.

I understandt that Wah Lum has a lot of those moves. I don't know if they taught applictions to those moves though.

You would notice that much of these applications as show in the clips depend on an element of surprise. Basically, the intent is to through your opponent off. I believe the one that in the clip (2:58) through the leg in the clip would have been part of a Chin Na technique serie, which involves the opponent turns and tries to bent pull your leg (the lead) and you fell on your back but you kick his butt literally with your other leg before he can "seat" on your lead knee (sort of a knee bar) but the Dog boxing guys are doing the entry from the front in the clip. So they break things up and introduced some element of surprise.

Some of those techs that involve falling face down to the side or whatever is indeed dashing for objects or may be even a weapon available on the ground. Imagine there is a dagger, bayonet, a rock or a broken bottle that's there "up for grabs" to increase your chance of survival. Imgine in a stick fight you somehow dropped your weapon and you "wish" to pick it up from the ground for you don't want to fight empty hand. We can debate whether it is wise to do so but you can see it's not totally unresonalbe. Some of these moves are more training or conditioning drill oriented. Some of the techniques resemble Ju Jitsu and MMA sweeps from the ground also.


And I don't think he was grabbing the ankles on the one I mentioned earlier. He just pushed him away.

That's just what is in the form. You do need to "tweak" it a bit for true effectiveness. This is the "secret thing" BS in the TCMA that people don't understand. It is often the little details that the Sifu either intentionally or unintentioanall left out. Kung Fu is in the details. You left out the detail you make the move a lot less effective. So the Sifu's "wisdom" will still be needed. His rice bowl is safe. Unfortunate, but that's just how things were/are for the most part.


I'll watch it again myself but a lot of them look like they could easily take a turn for the worst.

It's true that most of them are pretty risky. But not unreasonable. So... It's it effective? Well, it depends on the person and how it is taught and trained really. So...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SifuAbel]

I sparred some "dog boxers" a while back... definitely not much when compared to BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, or Judo.

Really? tell us more. I didn't know this style was even in the states.

[Yao Sing]

All the ground fighting in Wah Lum is the typical CMA type. It's not grappling, as in BJJ. Mostly defensive although there are some aggressive ground moves.

CMA ground fighting (my understanding) is primarily how to deal with being 'grounded' while creating an avenue to get back on your feet. If you do find yourself there you need to defend and regain your footing.


I believe the one that in the clip (2:58) through the leg in the clip would have been part of a Chin Na technique serie, which involves the opponent turns and tries to bent pull your leg (the lead) and you fell on your back but you kick his butt literally with your other leg before he can "seat" on your lead knee (sort of a knee bar) but the Dog boxing guys are doing the entry from the front in the clip.

See, if that's the case why don't they just show that instead of showing some oddball maneuver like diving between the legs? Peeps like Knifefighter will have a field day with that kind of crap and it makes CMA look like a joke. That kick is realistic in your explanation but not in the way they showed in the clip.

How about the one where kick defense was to dive to the ground and do a roundhouse kick to the groin? What advantage does going to the ground give you over other standing moves? Just think of the energy expenditure dropping to the ground and getting back up every time you do a move.

I understand the 'tweaking' and do it all the time but these apps go way beyond that. I'm not saying it's all crap but some of it is just plain nutty. I say don't go to the ground unless you plan on staying there to fight.

[Knifefighter]

See, if that's the case why don't they just show that instead of showing some oddball maneuver like diving between the legs? Peeps like Knifefighter will have a field day with that kind of crap and it makes CMA look like a joke. That kick is realistic in your explanation but not in the way they showed in the clip.
Can't have a field day unless they are doing stupid stuff... which they were on some of the stuff.

On the other hand, some of the things they were doing were not as stupid as some of the movements you see being done in forms.

Some of it is actually potentially pretty functional, although one would have to sort through the stupid stuff first.

[SifuAbel]

Well, I'll give you an "A" for effort for actually seeing beyond the two techniques people are fixating on.


Some people here don't know what they are looking at.

However, "were not as stupid as some of the movements you see being done in forms. " Needs better back up. Like what? For instance?

[SevenStar]

See, if that's the case why don't they just show that instead of showing some oddball maneuver like diving between the legs?

actually, that dive looked like a set up for a fireman's carry, until he dropped to the ground.

[Knifefighter]

Stupid stuff:
- The dive into the low double leg takedown.
- The dive between the legs.
- Jumping to guard after clearing the hands from the neck only to push the opponent away.
- Giving the opponent potential knee bars at a couple of points.
- Diving head first under the leg kick.

Questionable, but with potential:
- Some of the leg sweeps.

Add some decent ground fighting into the mix and some of the other stuff would be OK. As Ross mentioned, kicking from the ground can be a pretty good strategy.

[lunghushan]

Actually this is some pretty good stuff compared to most stuff coming from China these days.

Not a lot that seems most modern people would do, but an interesting counter against the leg grab from the kick.

[lunghushan]

- Jumping to guard after clearing the hands from the neck only to push the opponent away.

Is it just a push? LOL

[Knifefighter]

Not a lot that seems most modern people would do, but an interesting counter against the leg grab from the kick.
Except for the fact that he feeds the opponent a knee bar.

[Knifefighter]

Is it just a push? LOL
Whatever it is, it would be much more effective by holding the ankles.

And why jump to full guard in the first place when you just open yourself up to being slammed and having your opponent trap your legs so you can't free them to do the technique?

[lunghushan]

Except for the fact that he feeds the opponent a knee bar.

Ahh, yes, the grappling. LOL

[lunghushan]

Whatever it is, it would be much more effective by holding the ankles.

And why jump to full guard in the first place when you just open yourself up to being slammed and having your opponent trap your legs so you can't free them to do the technique?

??? who knows.

[Knifefighter]

Ahh, yes, the grappling. LOL
That's the thing about going to the ground. One pretty much opens himself up to grappling by going there.

[mickey]

Greetngs,

I agree with mantis108 in that not everything is shown in that clip and much "tweaking" needs to be done. For example, the technique shown at 1:37 the left leg should kick first in order to take advantage of the opening and to protect the groin.


mickey

[Yao Sing]

Again, I'm not saying they're all bad. Quite a few are part of the style I studied and I'm familiar with how they're used.

I just don't see the point in portraying an app incorrectly as some of you seem to be saying. Why show it wrong? Why the need to 'tweak'?

I believe in 'tweaking' to make a different app or adjust for different situations but the main app shouldn't need any. If you need to 'tweak' your moves to make them work then you learned them wrong.

Especially if you're showing the apps with a partner. Then they should be exactly how they're used in a fight. You don't show it wrong and expect others to adjust it correctly.

Like I asked before what is the advantage to going to the ground on some of these?

And I'd also like to hear someone address Knifefighters list. Obviously these are meant to be used against non-grapplers.

[Ray Pina]

Let's also not forget that these fantastic moves are being performed against the air in an unfurnished room. The "C" in Could and the "D" in Did are a lot further apart than they appear.

[Yao Sing]

Hey Ray, did you not see the 2 man apps part of the clip?

[Ray Pina]

Apparantly not, it was loading slow and I thought I had seen enough. I'll have to go back in and look I guess.

[Knifefighter]

Hey Ray, did you not see the 2 man apps part of the clip?
If that is as far as they go with that stuff, that is almost as worthless as only doing it in the air.

[Knifefighter]

For example, the technique shown at 1:37 the left leg should kick first in order to take advantage of the opening and to protect the groin.

You are suggesting kicking with the left leg while the right leg is trapped and being held up by the opponent?

[Knifefighter]

I just don't see the point in portraying an app incorrectly as some of you seem to be saying. Why show it wrong? Why the need to 'tweak'?
If that is the case, that's exactly the thing that makes so much CMA completely stupid. All that does is ensure that many of the techniques being passed on are non-functional. Hiding techniques so that they have to be tweaked out to determine how they are supposed to be used- you can't get much more inefficient than that.

[Ben Gash]

So what it proves is that the most advanced ground fighting style CMA offers operates under the assumption that the other guy will not follow you to the ground.

Just to quickly address that point, if we were in a fight to the death and I threw you, I wouldn't follow you to the ground as such. It's less risky and more effecient for me to kick you (or stab you) while you're on the ground, which is pretty much the type of attacks that Guoquan deals with. Technical ground grappling is typically the province of civilian developed martial arts (even classical JJJ doesn't emphasise it that much).
As for the rest of it, I love the fact that you guys are somehow assuming that this is the pinnacle of Guoquan practice :rolleyes: This guy is very obviously average at best (and I'm being generous). The White Crane guys here do a couple of ground boxing forms, and to a man they're better at them than him. Most of the applications are obviously inneffective, but believe it or not, there are lots of teachers in China who can't do kung fu application. Remember, TCMA were already in decline in 1900.

[Knifefighter]

Just to quickly address that point, if we were in a fight to the death and I threw you, I wouldn't follow you to the ground as such. It's less risky and more effecient for me to kick you (or stab you) while you're on the ground, which is pretty much the type of attacks that Guoquan deals with.
Assuming it's one-on-one and additional opponents are not a consideration, it's more efficient to follow the person down where you can shut down his options and control him, rather than giving him the space he needs to regroup, defend and possibly mount an offensive after the takedown.

[Ben Gash]

Who said anything about giving space? Anyway, time spent getting down to grapple with them is time not spent hitting them, and by definition you're giving them an opportunity to grapple with you. Most fatalities in fights occur when the standing party lays into the fallen party, and it's substantially less effort than grappling. Hence the skills practiced in dog boxing have martial merit.

[SifuAbel]

Apparantly not, it was loading slow and I thought I had seen enough. I'll have to go back in and look I guess.

Oh lord.......... :rolleyes:

[mickey]

Hi Knifefighter,

The guy does not kick with the left leg while he is standing. As soon as he hits the ground he immediately should kick with the left leg; then with the right as demonstrated. The opening is definitely there to do so, as well as the time. Kicking with the left first will support the thrusting movement of the right leg when the left leg is withdrawn. The target would be the groin.

mickey

[Ray Pina]

Both of these went to the ground: http://youtube.com/watch?v=6DkBWuUGa_k

In my experience, if you're not concerned about others, you immediatedly follow them man to the ground, the momentum of the throw or strike will lead you there automatically if its done with intent. It actually takes more effort to reverse.

Anyway, if you hit the man well or throw him so he lands painfully, you are sure to get a good position on him. If you have hurt or injured a man already, then get a dominant position on his you should finish.

To not go down, not even talking about retreating and giving him the option to stand up, pull a weapon, but just standing over him and stomping, he can create room with his hips, grab a hold of your clothing, sweep you, and now he can get position on you.

[Ben Gash]

he can create room with his hips, grab a hold of your clothing, sweep you, and now he can get position on you.

What, like in dog boxing? :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

I guess if you want to play that way we can say "in dog boxing theory" ... unless of course you have footage of a dog boxer engaged in non-cooperative battle..... or, we can turn to the countless hours of MMA or BJJ actually putting that into practice in such venues.

[Yao Sing]

If that is the case, that's exactly the thing that makes so much CMA completely stupid. All that does is ensure that many of the techniques being passed on are non-functional. Hiding techniques so that they have to be tweaked out to determine how they are supposed to be used- you can't get much more inefficient than that.

I'm going to have to agree with you here. You need to at least start out with the move done correctly, then you can tweak and see what else can be done with them.


Assuming it's one-on-one and additional opponents are not a consideration, it's more efficient to follow the person down where you can shut down his options and control him, rather than giving him the space he needs to regroup, defend and possibly mount an offensive after the takedown.

The last part is exactly the goal of CMA groundfighting. Which is fine if you find yourself on the ground. I just question why you would go there intentionally (I mean non-grapplers)? Guess maybe it just doesn't fit my way of fighting.

[SevenStar]

Who said anything about giving space? Anyway, time spent getting down to grapple with them is time not spent hitting them, and by definition you're giving them an opportunity to grapple with you. Most fatalities in fights occur when the standing party lays into the fallen party, and it's substantially less effort than grappling. Hence the skills practiced in dog boxing have martial merit.

you are obviously giving space of some sort, if nothing else than my hands, head and elbows are now further from your body, as I am standing and you are not. You don't have to spend time getting to the ground with them if you threw them or took them down with a double or a single - momentum leads it's hand to you already going there. You use that to your advantage by being in a dominant position on top of them. there is also the additional impact of my body landing on top of yours. There is much less effort required for me to continue thr throw and fall than there is for me to stop my momentum and stand back up. And while I am doing that, I am losing striking time.

Do you have any stats about the fatalaties? Specifically in one on one situations?