DIM MAK question..

[Tim Plunkett]

I was talking to this Kung Fu practioner today and he mentioned that Dim Mak takes 3 life times to learn. One life time to learn the anatomy of the body, another to learn the strikes, and the final to be able to use it effectively in combat.

He also said it was one of the hardest styles to learn but also is the most effective.

Since you guys are experts in Kung Fu, what do you think?

[brassmonkey]

Dim Mak, dim sum, this is kids play. Better to learn kong jin(empty force) you wont have to touch the opponent to throw or strike them.

[Kung Lek]

I think he was speaking figuratively and metaphorically.

Anantomy definitely will not take you a lifetime to learn. Nor will a "system" of strikes and using it effectively will only be determined in the moment of experience.

This can all be achieved in less than a single lifetime, or the duration of a single lifetime.

The quote "3 lifetimes to learn all" is related to the Kung Fu systems that were accumulated at the shaolin temple over a period spanning greater than a thousand years.

hundreds of styles, hundreds of exercises, thousands of forms. Indeed, all logic points to the fact that it would be impossible for any human given their relatively short lifespan in comparison to the needed hours of study to know all these things that require x amount of time to learn each.

Dim Mak is only one thing. But those who do learn some of the methodologies and finer points definitely have spent a long time getting fundamental knowledge of a style before being introduced to the theories and concepts behind it.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[dedalus]

Has someone seen an expert?! :eek:

I completely agree with that last point Kung Lek made, but I'll put it another way.

The trick to learning dim mak for application is not to learn it in theory, but to learn it implicitly by studying forms that contain it. Taiji's pauchui, for instance, contains tonnes of dim mak that you can't help but practice if your postures are correct. In other words, you learn your techniques and *then* the dim mak, you don't try to learn points and then devise ways to hit them.

[tigerking]

Can somebody please explain the proper meaning and applications of Dim Mak to me?

I've only seen it in "Bloodsport" when JCVDamme breaks the bottom brick after slapping the top one. - if that's accurate? and possible?

[Martial Joe]

If something takes 3 life times you must be really stupid to even try...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[Xebsball]

I dont know man, enlightment takes more than 3 lifes generally. And its not a stupid thing, you know.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[gazza99]

Dim-Mak (death touch, or death point striking) is reffering to striking to pressure points along the accupucture meridians (of course there are "extra and new points"to create a desired effect, ranging from vomiting, to headaches, to KO , and of course resulting in death :eek: .
Some believe that you can utilize Qi to adversely effect the points to a higher degree than just the basic phsyiological reaction.For EX.- You can use the root, and draw power from the ground through the bubbling well/spring point. known by meridian designation of Kidney 1. (see my point diagram charts on my website for exact location)
All in all "Dim-Mak" works very well, even if one is not versed in internal methods. But a general prerequisite is you must know HOW TO FIGHT WITHOUT IT. It cannot be learnt in and of itself for defence.
Hope that helps,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Martial Joe]

baseball my friend...If that was true then no one could have ever declared they have reached enlightenment durring their life on earth...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[Sam Wiley]

They say "three lifetimes" just to get the point across that it takes a long time to master and you just can't get around that. Dim-Mak includes more than just killing points. It also includes other things like healing points, massage, qi disruption, meridian massage (the opposite of qi disruption), etc. There are so many things to learn that most don't even want to try. And the thing is that, no matter how long you've been learning, there's always something new to learn, so you never stop learning.

I went through the applications for the first qi disruption form (Penetration Form) with my main student yesterday, showing him how each move can be used to penetrate an on guard stance or attack to get in and strike and dominate, and struck him very lightly on the back of his neck at the base...and I nearly knocked him out. It was completely accidental, and I hit very lightly. What I realized was that if this strike works well with little pressure and without having the disruption done, then with the disruption it is pretty **** nasty. And I only got to the forceful neck grab part when I struck him, not even the main strike for the method. Also, I realized that that method of gaining entrance is from the 10th of the 12 Circular Palm Strikes from Taiji, though I never realized until yesterday that it could be used as a strike in and of itself. I also learned to be very careful.

*********

[Chris McKinley]

Gary pretty much nailed it. Just FYI, Dim-Mak is not a style. It is a subset of certain styles, most notably, the Taoist arts such as Taijiquan, Xing Yi Quan, and Baguazhang. Over time, other arts have adopted certain portions of the knowledge of it as well.

Perhaps it might help to think of it this way: in China, if a sick person went to a Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor, he/she would be diagnosed as to imbalances in the body's various meridians. Then, acupuncture, acupressure, tui na, an mo, herbs, diet and qigong might all be prescribed to help correct any imbalance. By contrast, in Dim-Mak, one seeks to CAUSE an imbalance in one or more of these meridians as well as execute a strike for mechanical damage.

[gazza99]

Sam,
Im sure you have done Wudang kata 9? A local instructor in goju (Gayland J.-he moved away about a year ago) was a big Erle enthusiast. He was persistant about me trying out the qi disruptions on him.

I did the one from number nine on him twice in a row, because he didnt feel any drainage the first time, probably because I used NO follow up strike EVER. He felt a bit drained after the second one, but it was subtle, and I thought he may just be humoring me so as not to hurt my feelings.

What I had forgotten was the disruption lasts around 3 days. 2 days later he phoned and begged me to come over and do the "fix it" points. He said he had no energy, and could not even get out of bed the first day. In disbelief I went over and did the points Erle has said would be a remidy. He started to feel a bit better, and phoned again the next day to say he was fine.

Before this I was not totally convinced in the Qi-disruptions, and even less convined it was within my power to do them. I know better now, so I try not to mess around with them much.
Later,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Xebsball]

The thing is when you become enlightened you remember all your past lifes.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Tim Plunkett]

Today the same guy started talking about takedowns. He explained to me how effective this one particular technique was. Basically he'd grab your heel while driving his forearm in slightly above the knee. I told him that would never work on a wrestler and he replied that it would if you had the timing right.

I then cooperatively let him apply the technique and I went down. He showed me it again but this time I just simply cross faced him. That frustrated him so he says, "I'd just strike your thigh with my forearm and break your leg." I told him to try it but he refused stating that it was too dangerous.

What do you guys think? Is this guy full of **** or are his techniques really that dangerous?

[Martial Joe]

x~That is incredible...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[Chris McKinley]

If you cross-faced him successfully, he would not be in a mechanical position to break your leg. In addition, he'd have to deal with all of your follow-up strikes and/or the fact that you'd basically sprawled him and are quickly going to take his back.

[Chris McKinley]

All in all, Mr. Plunkett, this has been a very effective troll. Nice and subtle, to an extent. Plus, it's allowed some of us to practice some of our pat speeches as well. :)

[Kung Lek]

Fighting can be like comedy in many situations, it's all in the timing. :) and sometimes no laughing matter.

a learning environment is not a fighting environment although you can learn from a fight if you recognize what is happening and what has happened.

demonstration in a learning environment neither proves nor disproves the effectiveness of a motion, it merely points it out and is drilled so that it will be effective in a fighting situation.

confusion of either can get you hurt in both environments.

when you fight, fight like the devil with all the tools you have in your arsenal, be merciful and use only what is required to achieve your objective.

your objective should be the retention of your own well bein without forfeiting to much of the well being of your opponent.

sometimes fights get dirty, so fight dirty. Restraint and the ability to control the situation without bringing to much harm to yourself or your opponent is the hallmark of good skill.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Grappling-Insanity]

Dont worry about Dim Mak its pretty much to hard to use realistically. I mean has any one actually seen pressure points work in sparring/fighting??

[chokeyouout2]

There are better ways to troll this board.You suck.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Crimson Phoenix]

This is not Dim Mak per se, rather a category of "grasp muscle/tendons" Qinna, but I managed to get out of some ground sparring by grabbing and squeezing real hard the area of the pectoral muscle (I put the thumb a lil bit under the armpit and claw the front part):it usually either forces your sparring to let go, or numbs his arm if he's pain-resistant...of course, I also got tapped pretty often since I do not train ground much...but I came to think that Dim Mak (that is "vital/painful points striking", not talking about the "delayed death" thingie) can be used in fights or sparring...it's like everything else, it just requires dedicated and serious training...
Just my opinion...

[brassmonkey]

Chris if you like his trolling, how'd you like my counter trolling? Well now that I'm done patting myself on the back I didnt do too good of a job considering how many reply's I got to my shot.

[Water Dragon]

I then cooperatively let him apply the technique and I went down. He showed me it again but this time I just simply cross faced him. That frustrated him so he says, "I'd just strike your thigh with my forearm and break your leg." I told him to try it but he refused stating that it was too dangerous.

Of course you did, you knew what was coming. He should've double legged yo A$$ while you were standing there waiting for him to push your knee.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Turiyan]

3 lifetimes is a literal term. Besides, one can become enlightened simply by just meditating on zen koans r-i-g-h-t?

You know how many PHD's in accupuncture there are in the world? About 400. My mothers teacher is just one of them.

I'm learning some interesting things from him vis-a-vis my mother. Like how innacurate the charts are. "extra" points that NOBODY knows about except these china taught PHD's..

Also an interesting statement: It doesnt matter where you put the needle. It doesnt have to be that exact. It works or it doesnt. It cant do bad only good. Its the herbs you have to be careful about. They can actually make things worse.

So where does dim mak fit in all this context?

Can dim mak work on geometric thinkers like myself? Nope. The fallacy of western and eastern cosomology is the creation of an illusion of chaos, and the price for true believers is order, peace and good health.

Thinks like hexagrams and points and time are falsehoods. Hexagrams dont exist in 3D material existence AKA the real world.

Its simply the rotation of a cube to give the illusion of clockwiseness.

http://believit.freeyellow.com/pics/hexsquare.jpg

Now, how impossible is it to have a flow of the five elements within a 3D structure?:

http://believit.freeyellow.com/pics/hexstar.jpg

Here's a directed graph following the same idea of the creative cycle fallacy:

http://believit.freeyellow.com/pics/directhex.jpg

Now let me show you how us non-linear babel builders think:

http://believit.freeyellow.com/pics/directriangle.jpg

Its just a triangle rotated to be viewed base on, to created a distorted viewpoint. Thus is the limitations of sense. The star pattern creates a hexagram in the middle, its still made up of triangles, but unequal triangles.

Symmetrey is the natural law. Creation is based on points. Destructive cycles are still cycles, they are based on time, space and points. Structure exists. Existence exists. There is no creator. Only destruction.

In order to destroy something, you must first have structure. Creation seeks to create nothing from nothing. But as you can see, perhaps even they fail, as all of their models and theorys are based upon equal structure, but they present a distorted viewpoint to align people to the cause and effect world they create.

What you call chaos is really order. Sorry for destroying your gods. Sorry for making sense.

Zencrafters, total enlightenment, in about an hour.

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan
"A Brahmin, coming into existence, is born as the highest on earth, the
lord of all created beings, for the protection of the treasury of the
(natural) law. Whatever exists in the world is (by right), the
property of the Brahmin; on account of the excellence of his origin
(primogeniture and eminence of birth) The Brahmin is, indeed, entitled
to it all" --C1V99-V100 The laws of manu

[Sam Wiley]

Hey Tim, are you talking about using the elbow on the front of the thigh just above the knee and pulling the foot forward? I've seen that done before. I wouldn't try it on a wrestler, but it's funny to see. The guy just falls on his butt. I'd imagine you'd have to surprise or distract him before getting that one on.

Gary,
I used to live with a friend of mine who let me try the disruptions on him any time I wanted, and I did. I don't remember which ones exactly I did, but I believe I stuck to the first 4. Anyway, about two months after we started doing this to test my "advancement," he started having uncontrollable nosebleeds, his gums started bleeding, and he would bruise at the slightest touch. He was diagnosed with Aplastic Anemia, a disease for which the doctors could find no apparent cause and could not treat with any success with drugs. He ended up being hospitalized after several marrow samples were taken, and the last I heard there was still no acceptable donor found. Our friendship had already ended because of other reasons, but I still feel that somehow I am responsible.

In any case, yes, I practice the 9th form now as well, but I have only done the 9th disruption one time. And it was on someone who deserved it. Two days later, I heard he had fallen very ill. About that one I have no guilt. I never tried this one for a test because the last few are extremely dangerous, and this one drains the jing from the spine. In other words, it puts them on the brink of death. Just not a good one to play with.

*********

[Sam Wiley]

Turiyan, try a dodecahedron, a three-dimensional, 12-sided figure in which each face has 5 edges. Or simply a 5-sided three dimensional figure.

In any case, remember that there are 2 Fire meridians, so you are actually looking at a 6-sided figure, the interaction of whose sides is determined by the interplay between 5 elements.

Just for the sake of curiosity, Turiyan, what is the maximum no. of right angles a right triangle can have in Euclidean Geometry? In Non-Euclidean Geometry? Whay are the numbers different? And why does a runner travelling at maximum velocity along the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle reach point C from point A faster than a runner travelling at the exact same velocity from point A to point C through point B, when both distances are exactly the same according to standard geometric equations? In addition, what bearing does my question about the maximum no. of right angles a triangle may have, have on aerial methods of global intercontinental travel?

*********

[Crimson Phoenix]

Turyian, Turyian...you always amaze me...have you never considered that the greatest wisdom can often be said in simple, childlike words? I guess this realization needs an evolution that your endless sophism blinds for you...
Let me quote you: "Can dim mak work on geometric thinkers like myself? Nope". Really?? Don't you have balls? Chest? Coccyx? Neck, Arteries? Don't you crap or pee?? If you answered yes to all of these, and I bet you did, then Dim Mak can take you out, simple...it doesn't matter what type of thinker you are (if any): if you live, you can die.
Don't be sorry for making sense, you haven't...don't be sorry for destroying my Gods, they need much more ferocious and accurate attacks to crumble...
You have thee guts to take down concepts that have been born from chinese culture milleniums ago and challenge them with your pseudo-scientifico-philosophical blattering, the blattering of a young guy whose nose sheds milk when pressed?? Let me laugh, you say trigrams do not make sense in the 3D world and blah blah shi@t?? Then why did Leibnitz consider them as a marvel since he saw in them the first sound representation of binary numbers from 1 to 64, way before this concept ever touched a mind in western worlds? Oh, maybe you're better than Leibnitz...ahahahahah...you know, you're a big joke, you're just venting air, all your diagrams and pseudo-intricate concepts are here to unsuccessfully hide your emptiness...maybe you can pull out a diagram to shed that one too for all us :rolleyes:

SAM SAM!!! I know...uuhhh..In Euclidian geometry it's only one...in hyperbolic Gauss-Lobachevsky space it's one too, but the other angles can be more than 90 degrees, in Parabolic Rhiemann space it can climb up to three right angles...he goes faster on the hypothenuse just because it's shorter than the sum of the two other sides and the only relevance I see with traveling is that the earth is grossly round heheheheheheeh
Did I get it right??? :D

[Sam Wiley]

Spoiler. :p I wanted to see Turiyan's answer before someone else's since he's a "geometric" thinker. Your answer's good enough for me. To explain a bit for Turiyan, although they teach you in high school that a right triangle can have only one right angle, those equations are based on two dimensional math. By bending a right triangle around a sphere, we can have a right triangle with up to three right angles. Now, as for travel, if you were to fly from New York to London, you would not fly a straight route, you would fly an arc because it's shorter. Looking at the side of the globe and drawing a line between NY and London does not draw the simplest route. It draws the longer route. Now, if you look down at the globe from above and draw a line between NY and London, you have the shortest route, since you are looking at the top of the map now, as opposed to the side as is commonly shown in 2D maps.

My point with all this irrelevance is that sometimes the shortest distance between two points is not a straight line as you know it. And just because you believe something does not make it fact. To give you an example, western archaeologists opened Tutankhamen's tomb, ignoring the warning of the curse, simply because they did not believe in it. They died anyway. Just because someone does not believe in Dim-Mak does not mean it will not work on them.

*********

[prana]

Crimson

I actually think Turiyan is a well-read person, and extremely intelligent. I used harsh words against him because I think he is actually quite able to see beyond words.

He really does suprise me sometimes :) But I gotta admit, some posts actually have a great hidden meaning behind it, after you filter out the hasrh words that he also uses....

Perhaps I am actually much more chaotic (lunatic) than Turiyan. I only wish he would have a decent conversation with us instead of continually using harsh and coarse words against us....

[gazza99]

Thus far I have only learned a bit about 3-dementional Geometry. Oh, and that either Turiyan is much smarter than I, or he's just full of hot air. Either way makes for interesting reading. ;)
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[honorisc]

°

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chen Style Taijiquan
Chen's Second Lu, or Pao-Chui

Beginning of Pao-Chui
King-Kong nailed fist
Grasp sparrow's tail
60% open and 40% closed
Single whip
Deflect downward, intercept and punch
Guard the heart punch
Side walk and twist step
Attack waist, press elbow and punch
Wells down punch
Plum flowers swept by wind
King-Kong nailed fist
Hidden body punch
Chop opponent with fist
Cut hand
Sleeves dance like turning flowers
Hidden hand punch
Flying step and elbow
Waving hands like clouds
High pat on horse
Waving hands like clouds
High pat on horse
Machine cannon 1
Machine cannon 2
Machine cannon 3
Ride unicorn and face back
White snake sticks out tongue 1
White snake sticks out tongue 2
White snake sticks out tongue 3
Turn flower under sea bottom
Hidden hand punch
Turn body and six coincides
Left firecracker 1
Left firecracker 2
Right firecracker 1
Right firecracker 2
Animal head posture
Cut frame
Sleeves dance like turning flowers
Hidden hand posture
Subdued tiger
Color eyebrow red
Yellow dragon plays water right
Yellow dragon plays water left
Turn body and kick left
Turn body and kick right
Turn flower under sea bottom
Hidden hand punch
Sweep ground with leg
Hidden hand punch
Left rush
Right rush
Insert on opposite direction
Turn flower under sea bottom
Hidden hand punch
Seize upper arm 1
Seize upper arm 2
Machine cannon
Fair lady works at shuttles
Four heads cannon
Chop opponent with fist
Twist elbow
Submissive elbow
Elbow through heart
Embraced cannon
Wells down punch
Plum flower swept by wind
King-Kong nailed fist
Conclusion of Pao-Chui


19990903 J Wave Dynamics Corp.

Dim mak is not pressure point striking soley.

Where is the ppstriking in the p c form?

That pyramid has Five sides and five vertexes (points~), some might say.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Sam Wiley]

No_Know,
He means the Yang style "pauchui," the Large San Shou form.

It would be pretty much impossible to type out Dim-Mak applications for all those postures, but if a few will do, and provided that they are the same as the same postures in the Yang style, I will give it a go.

Hidden Hand Punch Block to a right punch on open side with right hand on top of left arm, striking Heart and Lung points on the inside of the wrist. Right Hammer Fist strikes to St9, left downward driving punch strikes to GB24. The action of the waist should make your hands jerk his arm a bit, pulling him slightly off balance.

High Pat on Horse Either block a high right punch with the left hand in from the outside and then drag it down and to the right, or simply block a low right punch from the inside with the back of the left wrist. Either way, the hand will end up dragging down the inside of the right arm a bit, setting up St9 for the right palm to strike straight in.

And if I remember right, I have a magazine where a Chen style master demonstrates Elbow Through Heart, and it looks like he's elbowing someone who came from behind with his right elbow into their solar plexus, which would be CV14.

More than likely you have been taught applications in which you could find Dim-Mak strikes, and may have even been told precise anatomical locations, but simply weren't told the acupuncture points to which those locations correlate. Dim-Mak points are sometimes used in wrist and elbow grabs and locks, in kicks, in pretty much everything, so there's always something there.

*********

[dedalus]

No_Know, that certainly is a post for sorting out the men from the boys :cool:... only it looks like you cut'n'pasted (making you a boy) :p

Personally I couldn't rattle out the posture names in the correct sequence for both the A side and B side, let alone the dim mak applications by posture name; moreover, I'm a Yang stylist and don't have a clue about the Chen applications (though I'm sure they're there). I know a few generics I could work from if I performed the postures (such as the fact that most temple strikes are to GB 3 and most sternum strikes are to CV 14) and I could probably figure out some of the set-ups to heart/lung/stomach points etc, but my main point was that you don't really have to know them to practise dim mak - you just practise the pauchui!

Anyhow, I'm on record as being a student. :D

I'm sure my teacher would tell me more if I could just sit still for long enough...

[dedalus]

Heya Sam! There you go, I guess ;)

[shog]

Externalist say similar things as well, as to how long it takes to learn a style...some say two lifetimes...one to learn the technical aspects and the second one to master yourself. Which in reality is impossible, for to master something it must not change, nor can the participate change. It is the dynamics of the human condition that make it impossible to actually master something...so I would agree that the "3 lifetimes" is just something one would say to remind those that to master the Martial Arts simply cannot be done in a lifetime.

The rest of the thread is decent.

Dim Mak works when done in the proper manner.
If it does not work, then it must not have been done right.

Breaking bricks/board is not Dim Mak...it is about striking properly with follow-through.

Tim P...If you are the person having the technique done on them, then that is what you do. If you know Japanese training - it is when Uke does their part, and only their part and Tori does their part and only their part...it is about teamwork...if you know something is coming, indeed it makes it easier to defend, but that does not mean you do it...

Sometimes even I forget to just go with it, but when I fight a technique being used on me, I am the one that usually gets hurt...

Dim Mak is the accurate version of targeting your strikes. In the external arts for example we are taught to strike in the general area of(sometimes right on it):

Top of the head Temple
Center of forehead Ear
Between nose and upper lip Base of neck
Chin Between shoulder blades
Larynx Small of back
Solar plexus Kidney
Base of ribs Coccyx
Elbow Back of knee
2 inches above navel Achilles heel
Wrist Hair
Groin Fingers
Knee
Between thumb and index finger
Instep Behind ear
Bend of elbow
Nose

These are the large targets, some with multiple strike points in the region. Some of the targets are just painful setup zones to a more deadly strike. So it becomes apparent that with striking arts in general, (those not that do not use Dim Mak specifically) are in essence striking to points as well, just not in Dim Mak fashion.

Which is why it is so baffling to hear many externalist (kungfu and karate) scoff at Dim Mak when they themselves are striking points, though at rudimentary level.

It is when you add the Internal Aspects of qi and fa-jing(and others I am sure) along with better knowledge and accuracy that make it more of an actually subset to a style and thus can be referred to as Dim Mak.

But again, I am just an Externalist new to learning Dim Mak and Taijiquan as they are meant to be learned...so much of the Internal points I have mentioned might be not quite right...

Chris B.

Where the External Learns to Be Internal (http://www.shogerijutsu.freehosting.net)

[honorisc]

Thank you Sam Wiley. That shows you hitting points using T'ai Chi Ch'uan postures/techniques. While knowing pressure points can be nice and T'ai Chi Ch'uan doesn't require a knowledge of hitting areas as specific as accupuncture points. Maybe accupressure points. But even then, it seems that basics of effective T'ai Chi Ch'uan is push/pull which does not require Dim Mak.

It seems that whatever you all are doing applies Dim Mak to T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Yet that T'ai Chi Ch'uan does not contain Dim Mak. External styles require accupressure point principled strikes/techniques because they have no substance if there is not an good purpose to connecting with the specific areas in the techniques. But T'ai Ch' Ch'uan does not require this as it is sgnificant without it.

Dedalus, thinks for me! Dedalus determined all on dedalus' own that I was trying to pass off the cut and paste of information as info that came from me. Dedalus, put that Opinion back in your hat with the rabbit you pulled out of it. It was my comprehension that you put in type~ that the form consisting of the techniques I posted was a lot of Dim Mak to it. Yet that is a form you claim to not know, as it is not your System of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

"...but my main point was that you don't really have to know them to practise dim mak - you just practise the pauchui!"

Put this way you seem to say that a person does not need to learn the Dim Mak points to learn dim Mak. And that the pauchui has the Dim Mak in it so just learn the form and you will automatically get the Dim Mak. A Yang form that you knew more about might have been better to make your point.

Some-such-ish

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[dedalus]

I was just kidding about the boys and men ;)

I'll post the first of many coming objections to the notion that taiji is primarilly about pushing and pulling. It exists in some training methods (eg in push hands), but opinions aside, isn't the pauchui objective evidence that stiking is very important at a high level?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "...but my main point was that you don't really have to know them to practise dim mak - you just practise the pauchui!"

Put this way you seem to say that a person does not need to learn the Dim Mak points to learn dim Mak. And that the pauchui has the Dim Mak in it so just learn the form and you will automatically get the Dim Mak.
[/quote]

You understand me perfectly. I might just add that having dim mak to use might not be the same thing as *knowing* what you've got there. I cite myself as a case in point :)

[Sam Wiley]

No_Know,
Actually, there are no pushes or pulls in Taiji. I'm afraid that these things are mistranslated that way. In our style, we tend to call them "positive and negative strikes."

You see, many who pretend to have great internal power use the push to demonstrate their power, often times shoving someone clear across the room. But this is not a demonstration of internal power. It is simply a demonstration of a good push. Also, some people like to say that pulling is a big part of Taiji as well, demonstrating supposed fighting techniques such as Da Lu, pulling the opponent past you and behind you instead of actually doing something to him. But this is not a demonstration of internal power, either. It is simply a demonstration of how to get your ass handed to you in a real fight.

There is no martial art based on pushing or pulling. How can there be, when these things are not effective in a real fight? Sure, we have names for training methods like "push hands" and "carefully pull the goat forward," but these names do not necessarily mean that we push and pull a lot. Pushing hands exercises do not teach you to push, nor does the "carefully pull the goat forward" teach you to pull. Pushing hands teaches you to use explosive body power from a short distance, to turn technique into reflex action that will automatically manifest in a fight, and some other things, but not to push. And "carefully pull the goat forward," does not teach you to pull, it teaches you to violently jerk the wrist to hurt your opponent's neck.

While it is true that Dim-Mak can be applied to many martial arts, if not all, it was an actual system of martial art first. It had to be. A simple list of points and how to strike them does not do anyone any good without them seeing it. What we are talking about here is a book versus technique. And the thing is that, they had to have the technique to write the book. So it had to have been systematized somehow.

While all martial arts know at a basic level how to strike the major vital points, this is not real Dim-mak. Hell, anyone knows that you can kill someone if you hit them on the solar plexus hard enough, because their heart is located there.

But there is a much more complicated system than that. There are set-up points, neurological shut down points, and even points we strike to tear tendons without external damage, points to make someone sick, or to affect a specific organ, etc. There are even techniques which do not involve touch that can still affect them, if you will believe that, though they will not kill them.

What we have been handed down in our style of Taiji is no mere list. We have training methods that ingrain on our subconcious minds the locations of points and their relevant set-up points so that we do not have to think about them. We also have what we call "non-techniques" which are movements and methods we train in that will automatically be used in a fight without thought as well, as they become reflex actions. In addition, we have been given power generation methods that are not in most styles, that provide us with maximum power even at minimum distance. These are just a few of things we are lucky enough to still have nowadays. Many styles have either lost them or never developed them.

In any case, there are those of us who argue that Taiji evolved from a system of acupuncture point striking that was discovered by Chang San-feng and practiced on Wudang Shan. That Dim-Mak as a system evolved there may or may not be true. But what we know is that strikes we have been taught within our own martial art, from both forms and training methods, correspond exactly to acupuncture points, and that these combinations and strikes work remarkably well. We also know that the training methods produce fighting skills based on reflex action and utilizing maximum power with little effort. True, Taiji as a martial art does not necessarily need Dim_Mak, as it can do very well without it. Nor does any other system necessarily nee Dim-Mak. But Dim-Mak is a sort of equalizer. What happens when your opponent doesn't respond to pain, cannot have his joints manipulated, is too big to be thrown or swept from his feet, or is much stronger than you? You lose. Unless you have something that can at least give you a better chance in this worst case scenario. And that would be Dim-Mak, since perfect technique is nearly impossible to maintain in a real fight.

Anyway, maybe one day you will have the opportunity to train with one of us and pick up some of this stuff. It's my belief that Dim-Mak became ingrained in all styles, but that many of them lost all but the most obvious points. Maybe you can work backwards, uncovering which points are to be used for which technique in your own style, and rediscover an interesting and powerful tool for self-defense.

*********