Do you think Yue Fei really created Eagle Claw?

[ghostexorcist]

I haven’t seen any real historical evidence which supports the claim that Yue Fei created Eagle Claw or the more specific yī bǎi ling bā qín ná (一百零八擒拿 – “108 China Na”) techniques. As far as I know, it is not mentioned in his historical biography compiled in 1345 during the Yuan Dynasty (although this is not a definitive source on his life as it was written 200 years after his death and because it over exaggerates his military accomplishments). Nor is it mentioned in his fictional biography first written sometime between the years 1661-1735. This version was written from folktales that where popular among the common people for centuries. If Eagle claw was the sh*t during the Song, why wouldn’t it be mentioned in writing centuries later during the early Qing dynasty?

It seems the legend of eagle claw runs almost parallel with that of Xingyi. Both were supposedly created by Yue Fei, disappeared for a time and then reemerged to become popular styles in the Ming and Qing dynasties. (Of course a lot of people will tell you that it was Ji Longfeng or another Muslim master who created Xingyi but that is another thread.) I think there is a very strong chance that it was created centuries after Yue Fei’s death, but attributed to him to give the style some historical weight. (The same could be said with Yue Fei’s association with Fanzi boxing.) I have heard the story of how Monk Lai Chin later combined the 108 locks with Fanzi to create northern eagle claw. I’m sure joint-locking of any kind existed LONG before eagle claw and Yue Fei, so it could be possible, if he really existed, monk Lai Chin just combined a historic joint-locking set with fanzi to create said style. Show me some sort of Song Dynasty record or any kind of record prior to the Ming mentioning Yue Fei and the 108 locks in the same context. If you can, I would really like to have a look at it!

It seems he was constantly on the move during his tenure in the military, either fighting the Liao or the Jin empires. When would he have had the time to create the style? A lot of people think his archery teacher Zhou Tong passed along some "hand techniques" called “Elephant” from Shaolin which Yue Fei synthesized into the 108 locks, but there is no historical material that can prove Zhou Tong was even a Shaolin monk. Yue Fei’s historical biography does not mention Zhou Tong teaching him any kind of boxing styles, just archery! Also, please don’t quote from books by eagle claw master Leung Shum. His books, I think, have perpetuated the idea that Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk and that Yue Fei created eagle claw. I only want historical evidence. (Don’t be mistaken. I am not dissing master Leung, just the history presented in his books.)

Comments are welcome from people well versed in Chinese martial arts and history, preferably a mix of the two. I’m not trying to be a pr*ck, I’m just interested in finding the “true” history of this wonderful style and not perpetuating blind faith in martial legends.

[bodhitree]

I only stopped by to see if there was a "don't care" option.

[ghostexorcist]

I only stopped by to see if there was a "don't care" option.

Nope, sorry to disappoint you.

[Shaolinlueb]

as an eagle claw practioner.

i understand yue fie created 108 locking techniques.

monk lai chun put those 108 techniques together with fanzi to create the forms.

so did yue fei really create the style? yes and no. he created the 108 locking techniques. those techniques are the basis of the style and in which were used in all the routines. did he take the time to create all the routines, no. the monk lai chun combined them with a form of fanzi.

eric or julian will answer this better.

[ghostexorcist]

as an eagle claw practioner.

i understand yue fie created 108 locking techniques.

monk lai chun put those 108 techniques together with fanzi to create the forms.

so did yue fei really create the style? yes and no. he created the 108 locking techniques. those techniques are the basis of the style and in which were used in all the routines. did he take the time to create all the routines, no. the monk lai chun combined them with a form of fanzi.

eric or julian will answer this better.

Perhaps I should redefine my question. I have heard the story that Lai Chin combined the 108 locks with fanzi. Can you show me historical records from the Song Dynasty that mention the 108 joint locks? I practice eagle claw joint locking myself, but I’m I’m afraid there is nothing that supports Yue Fei created it.

[lunghushan]

Of course Yue Fei created Eagle Claw. And Santa's little helpers are busy putting together a Lamborghini for Santa Claus to put under my tree on Christmas night. ;)

[Sal Canzonieri]

First of all, 108 is a symbolic number in chinese, it means many, many, many.
Many CMA forms have 36, 72, and 108 movements.
On a folk level, you hear many Chinese say 36 to mean "many";
72 (36 + 36) means many more, 108 (72 + 36) means many many more.

Nowhere was it historically said the Yue Fei created these 108 locks.

In Shaolin, the eagle claw lock is ONE of many many many found in the Lohan forms.
The movements of this "eagle claw" techinique are very similar to the movements
of Pi, splitting in Xing Yi. They are done almost exactly alike in Shaolin Lohan and in XY. Photos of this were shown in past issues of Gene's Wushu Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine. The movements step by step was shown a few years back in one of their Shaolin issues that showed the Xiao Lohan form and others.
Both in XY and Shaolin Lohan the fist curves in and up with the pinky side up UNDER the Chin and then out, which makes a very effective join lock.

Sun Lu Tang attributed the origin of this XY movement to Yue Fei, which he said originally comes from Shaolin.

Whoever spread the story that Yue Fei's teacher learned from Shaolin, or learned Shaolin martial arts (not necessarily that he learned there), made people associated the techniques coming from Yue Fei. The general conjecture around the time of the Taiping Rebellion was that Fan Zi has it origins in Shaolin martial arts, and from it comes the legend that Zhou Tong was the founder of Fan Zi (or Ba Shan Fan as it was originally called). When legends developed that said Zhou TOng was Yue Fei's teacher, then all these techiniques that supposedly came from Zhou Tong's supposed Shaolin origin were attributed to Yue Fei as well.

I think that it was the person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s, who was ex-Taiping Rebellion Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.

According to what he was telling people, Fantzi and Chuojiao were ancient Sung Dynasty styles that influenced what the soldiers in Yue Fei's army practiced. Fantzi and the Yue Jia Quan that was derived from it spread all over China to Henan province. Yue Jia Quan was derived from Ba Shan Fan (Fantzi Quan) and Liu He Quan was derived from Yue Jia Quan. Over time this was forgotten and Yue Fei himself was considered the founder of not only Yue Jia Quan, but Liuhe Quan and which led to the legend that Yue Fei was the ancestral founder of Liuhe Quan, which led to Xingyi Quan, but also that Yue Fe became considered the founder of Fantzi itself, though it predated him, which in turn led to the legend that Yue Fei created Eagle claw, another style that was derived from Fantzi.

Fantzi Quan and Xin Yi Quan share many postures, movements, and martial theories, because the martial and legendary evolution from Fantzi to Yue Fei Jia Quan to Liuhe Quan can be traced in Henan Province showing that Fantzi was the ancestral root that influenced the development of Henan XinyYi Quan, ending with the story that Yue Fei was the founder of Xingyi Quan.

[ghostexorcist]

First of all, 108 is a symbolic number in chinese, it means many, many, many.
Many CMA forms have 36, 72, and 108 movements.
On a folk level, you hear many Chinese say 36 to mean "many";
72 (36 + 36) means many more, 108 (72 + 36) means many many more.

Nowhere was it historically said the Yue Fei created these 108 locks.

That is a very good point about the symbology of 108. I have read about this myself in my own studies.


When legends developed that said Zhou TOng was Yue Fei's teacher, then all these techiniques that supposedly came from Zhou Tong's supposed Shaolin origin were attributed to Yue Fei as well.

Zhou Tong was mentioned in Yue Fei’s historical biography compiled in 1345, but I understand what you are saying.

It just seems that Yue Fei did not create a single boxing style. He was just a superior general and was able to push his troops to victory. Because of this and his martyr’s death, many styles were attributed to him. However, I don’t doubt his troops were drilled in Shuai Jiao throwing and weapons, the regular military training of the day.

Yue Fei’s historical biography only mentions how good an archer he was--like drawing a bow of 300 catties (300 lbs +). I always thought the legendary grip of eagle claw could have originally come from training the hands with a strong bow. Pulling a bow of that weight would have asserted a superhuman strain on the fingers and forearms, creating a powerful grip. However, this is just a puerile fancy and chances are the 300 catty bow was just an over exaggeration of his martial skills. I’m not claiming any of this to be true.

I would also like to ask that everyone who votes on the poll leave a comment and visa versa.

[Wong Ying Home]

My only addition to the comments made thus far, is that the word or character translated as elephant boxing is probabaly incorrect and that the character should be read as imitation and not elephant.

An amount of research has allready been undertaken in Hebei province this year with regard to eagle claw and further will completed in 2007 :)

[ghostexorcist]

My only addition to the comments made thus far, is that the word or character translated as elephant boxing is probabaly incorrect and that the character should be read as imitation and not elephant.

An amount of research has allready been undertaken in Hebei province this year with regard to eagle claw and further will completed in 2007 :)

Just for clarification:

In Chinese, elephant is pronounced Xiàng (象). However, the same character can also mean "shape, form, or appearance". The elephant style in question is a mistranslation of xiang, which actually refers to Xiang Xing Quan (象形拳 - "Imitation Boxing"), a fighting technique which emphasizes the imitation of the offensive and defensive actions of a certain animal or person.

Any animal fighting style fits into this category (eagle, tiger, mantis, monkey, crane, whatever). I added the above to wikipedia's crappy eagle claw article some time ago.

If someone would like to read more on Zhou Tong (a.k.a. Jow Tong), Yue Fei's archery teacher, go HERE! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28monk%29). I wrote this page using many sources. But I don't consider it "definitive" in anyway. It's just a collection of the historic and fictional accounts of Zhou Tong's life.

[ngokfei]

Mr Henning has also done a brief intro to Yue Fei in the "Journal of Asian Martial Arts Volume 15, Number 4 (now on the newstands)

I don't think you'll ever find evidence that you are looking for regarding Yue Fei's Martial Arts background. It just wasn't important to the biographers of the time.

Look the USA is just over 200 years old and still there are alot of facts missing about the "founding fathers".

IMO the style is a mix of many different martial arts teachings bridging from pre Sung Dynasty to the modern period.

Sal has done intense research as a martial artist and historian to unearth facts as well as theories and opinions on the origins of said styles and how they fit into todays existing styles/systems.

Its all good. I've devoted 10 years of research into the styles history, lineage and I think that has been enough time (wong ying can confer;) ) so my time is better put into understanding the founding principles and theories of what we have to day which has been given the name "Ying Jow Pai/Moon".

[Sal Canzonieri]

What I have come away with after researching Yue Fei is that
whatever is attributed to Yue Fei is actually better said
as Yue Fei Jia Quan, the Yue Fei FAMILY of martial arts.

It's pretty clear to me that Yue Fei Jia Quan evolved from military martial arts of the Song Dynasty.

These martial arts, when you look at Yue Fei Jia Quan techniques,
appear to be derived from Fan Zi / Chuo Jiao, eventually Fan Zi/Yue Jia Quan ideas (5 elements, etc) attached themselves in Henan province to 6 Harmony Xin Yi Quan.

For you Eagle Claw people, I will post later today my notes on who exactly in the early days of the style did what to bring in the idea that Yue Fei was the founder.
It's been a game of telephone. I spent a lot of time tracing it, so enjoy the valuable information to your style's history.
Bear in mind that we are talking about Hebei province Eagle Claw from the Liu (Lao) family, not the ancient Eagle Claw that is still done at Shaolin, which has a distant relationship to Hebei Fanzi Eagle Claw far far back.

[SifuAbel]

You need to add a third option to the poll.

3. I don't care.

[lkfmdc]

I guess it's time to fess up, I used my "way back" machine to go back in time and I am the one who created it.....

ANd since I like elephants, that is what I named the style :p

[ghostexorcist]

You need to add a third option to the poll.

3. I don't care.

It's a yes or no poll. If you don’t care, don’t leave a comment.

[ghostexorcist]

I guess it's time to fess up, I used my "way back" machine to go back in time and I am the one who created it.....

ANd since I like elephants, that is what I named the style :p

SWEET! Can you do me a favor? Go back to the Song era and punch Qin Hui (秦桧) in the throat for me.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What I have come away with after researching Yue Fei is that
whatever is attributed to Yue Fei is actually better said
as Yue Fei Jia Quan, the Yue Fei FAMILY of martial arts.

It's pretty clear to me that Yue Fei Jia Quan evolved from military martial arts of the Song Dynasty.

These martial arts, when you look at Yue Fei Jia Quan techniques,
appear to be derived from Fan Zi / Chuo Jiao, eventually Fan Zi/Yue Jia Quan ideas (5 elements, etc) attached themselves in Henan province to 6 Harmony Xin Yi Quan.

For you Eagle Claw people, I will post later today my notes on who exactly in the early days of the style did what to bring in the idea that Yue Fei was the founder.
It's been a game of telephone. I spent a lot of time tracing it, so enjoy the valuable information to your style's history.
Bear in mind that we are talking about Hebei province Eagle Claw from the Liu (Lao) family, not the ancient Eagle Claw that is still done at Shaolin, which has a distant relationship to Hebei Fanzi Eagle Claw far far back.

As promised, for the Eagle Claw practioners/historians, my notes:

In Hebei Province, Liu Dekuan, a Liuhe Quan practioner went to Beijing and while holding a post in the imperial palace studied Yue Style San Shou and other things with Liu Shijun of Xiong County, Hebei. Shijun's spear methods were excellent, Dekuan continued the tradition, also mastering the big spear, for which he is famous. Another of Liu Shijin's students, Liu Chengyou, taught Yue Fei San Shou style to Chen Zizheng, who later combined the punching and kicking from Shaolin Kung Fu along with the techniques of Ba Fan Shou (grabbing and controlling, pressure point attacking, dianxue) and developed a new style of martial art. This art was then known as Yingzhao Quan (Eagle Claw). He also gathered Yue Shi San Shou techniques and Fan Zi techniques, creating thus two new taolu (forms) which are called Shi Lu Xing Quan (10 ways of moving punch) and Wu Shi Lu Lian Quan (50 ways of continuous punch).

THUS, Liu Chen You is the actual creator of Ying Zhao-Fantzi style, since Liu Shijun and Liu Dekuan practiced only Yue Fei San Shou (and Liuhe Quan). Even though Liuhe Quan and Yue Fei San Shou and Fantzi were already related to each other.

The Liu family developed their own styles of Eagle Claw, Liu He Quan (Six Harmony boxing), and Yue Jia Quan (Yue Family boxing).

Li Guanming becomes the first generation Cangzhou, Hebei province representative of Liuhe Quan (6 Harmony boxing).
Concerning Li Guanming's teacher, there are three references: Cao Peng, Shi Jinke, or Chu Wentai.
Li Guanming taught Li Fenggang, Tong Cun, Wang Dianchen, and Liu Yuting.

Tian Chungui and Li Fenggang taught Liu Dekuan (Big Spear Liu). Li Fenggang also taught Wang Zhengyi (Big Saber Wang Wu) and others.

Liu Dekuan went to Beijing and while holding a post in the imperial palace studied Yue Style Sanshou and other things with Liu Shijun of Xiong County, Hebei.

1. Li Quan, of the Ming Dynasty, mastered the essentials of the Yue-style Quan. Li taught the style to Monk Fa Cheng who later passed it on to Liu Shijun of Xiongxian County in Hebei Province.

2. Three years later Liu left his master to travel alone. Liu Shijun served as martial arts instructor at the barracks of imperial guards in Beijing during the Qing Dynasty and taught Liu Dekuan (1826-1911), Ji San, Ji Zixiu, and nephew Liu Chengyou.

3a. Liu Dekuan's learned Yueh Style San Shou (also called Yueh Style Eagle Hand or Yueh Style Connected Fists). He learned this from Hebei Xiong County Liu Shijun. De Kuan first studied with Shijun's student Xu Liu and then later he studied with Shijun. Shijun's spear methods were excellent, Dekuan continued the tradition. He also used the big spear, for which he is famous.

So, at this time, the style was still called Yueh style San Shou and not Eagle Claw (Ying Zhao).

Many of Liu Dekuan’s students created some new routines and called them “Fanzi Quan”.

Liu De kuan was drawn into Bagua System through the Cheng Style, and assisted Cheng Tinghua in expanding Bagua System everywhere. Liu De Kuan
also contributed to the Bagua System. Cheng Style Bagua students train the Six Lines of the Halberd. This comes from Liu De Kuan.


3b. Ji Zixiu, (of the third generation, student of Liu Shijun) kept the original style of Ba Fan Shou. He was known as “Iron Arm Ji”, famous for having a full wagon load of rice run over his arm without causing harm. He was also a major student of Yang Lu Chang, the founder of the Old Style Yang Taiji. Ba Fan Shou was a hard style and Taiji is a soft style. Ji Zixiu combined them, making a new style of Ba Fan Shou. In the early 19th Century, Wang Xin Wu studied Ba Fan Shou and Yang style taiji from Ji Zixiu, Xu Yusheng and Wu Jian Quan (founder of Wu’s style taiji). Wang then taught Hao Xueru, Shen Zi Rong, Ma Yeju, etc. CHEN JUNHAO studied Ba Fan Shou from Mr. Hao Xueru and Shen Zi Rong.

3c. Liu Chengyou (of the third generation, student of Liu Shijun) passed it on to his sister's grandson Chen Zizheng (1873 - 1933), who went to teach the art in northeast China, Shanghai and Guangzhou.

4. Chen Zizheng combined the punching and kicking from Shaolin Kung Fu along with the techniques of Ba Fan Shou (grabbing and controlling, pressure point attacking, dianxue) and developed a new style of martial art. This art was then known as Yingzhao Quan (Eagle Claw). The essence of Eagle Claw is to hit the enemy while grabbing and controlling when your hands move backwards to your body. He gathered Yue Shi San Shou tecniques and Fan Zi techniques, creating thus two new taolu (forms), which are called Shi Lu Xing Quan (10 ways of moving punch) and Wu Shi Lu Lian Quan (50 ways of continuous punch).

THUS, Liu Chen You is the actual creator of Ying Zhao-Fantzi style, since Liu Shijun and Liu Dekuan practiced only Yue Fei San Shou.
Even though Yue Fei San Shou and Fantzi were already related to each other.

[Shaolinlueb]

Sal

awesome post, but all those names confused me. could you like rename them like mark and john? :D

ok that was good. so what are the origins to the eagle claw at shaolin? now you got me interested. you can't mention it and not write about it :p

-Adam

[lunghushan]

Honestly, does it really matter where the eagle claw techniques came from?

You ask 10 different teachers, you'll probably get 10 different answers as to lineage, unless they're from the exact same lineage.

[ghostexorcist]

Honestly, does it really matter where the eagle claw techniques came from?

You ask 10 different teachers, you'll probably get 10 different answers as to lineage, unless they're from the exact same lineage.

It matters a great deal. I'm just trying to dispel the myth that Eagle Claw is a 900 year old style. This doesn’t mean it’s not an effective combat style. I believe that all styles should try to find their true origins. I realize that technique is more important to masters than their style's origins, but I’d rather see a master tell their student the truth than perpetuate a martial legend. But I’d say most modern masters do not know the real truth and are complacent with the origins they were given as a student.

Here is one good example of “blind faith” in martial legends (I apologize in advance to anyone I might offend). I was looking up info about General Yue Fei’s army and I came across an eagle claw page that said the following:


The Eagle Claw System can be traced back to the end of the Southern Sung Dynasty (about 1250 A.D. ). At this time, China, under the rule of the King Go Chung, was being invaded by Mongolian "Golden Soldiers". Ngok Fei was the Sung General in charge of resistance to the "Golden Soldiers". Training his soldiers in fighting techniques he had learned from a Sil Lum monk named Jow Tong, Ngok Fei continuously defeated the Mongolian invaders and, on several occasions, almost succeeded in capturing their general. As a result, Ngok Fei and his fighting techniques acquired quite a reputation throughout China.

If anyone does not know the history of General Yue Fei, He lived from 1103-1141/42 CE (depending on Chinese or western calendars). So the estimate of “about 1250” is way too late. Also, it wasn’t the “Mongolians” who invaded china at the time, it was the Jurchen tribe from what would become Manchuria. (The Jurchen were the ancestors of the Manchus who would later found the Qing Dynasty. The Mongolians would actually run the Jurchens out of China about 100 years AFTER Yue Fei’s death).

That having been said, I wrote a very respectful email to the site about some of the inaccuracies and they wrote me back a few days later. Part of their reply read, “That is what it says in my master’s [Grandmaster Leung Shum] book”. They were very kind and thanked me for writing. The person was willing to overlook actual documented history because they were satisfied with the tale their master told them. I’m not. That’s why I dig for the truth and so does Sal. I can't say I agree with all of his theories but he approaches the subject with a scientific eye and a solid background in martial arts.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Eagle Claw chin na techniques were around in Shaolin for an unknown length of time.

The present day Eagle Claw system that is at Shaolin today dates back to the Qing dynasty and was created by Monk Shi De Yin, who codified all the loose techniques into forms, called Vajra Fists.

What all the other Eagle Claw systems in the USA, Hong Kong, Europe, Australia, etc., (anything outside of Shaolin temple today) practice comes out of Hebei Province and is a derivative of movements from both Fantzi Quan and from Yue Fei Jia Quan, which essentially are the same thing in theory, if traced far back enough.

By 1980, there was no one anywhere in China that was still practicing Hebei Province Eagle Claw, it was spread outside China and killed off during the Cultural Revolution, according to Leung Shum's books on Eagle Claw style (USA), but clearly Eagle Claw, whether of Shaolin or Hebei origin is found all over China and into the rest of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Vietname). There are many very acrobatic modern wushu forms based on the Eaglel Claw style today in China as well.

The Eagle Claw that Henan Shaolin does is very distantly related to the Eagle Claw that originated in Hebei province.

Bits and pieces of Hebei province Liu family Yue Fei Jia Quan trace back eventually to military martial arts (chin na techniques and Fanzi/Chuojiao techniques), maybe back to the Song Dynasty. But essentially this now well known Eagle claw style was invented and developed in the 1800s by Chen Zizheng, before him, it was essentially still Yue Fei Jia Quan style.

Shaolin eagle claw traces back to animal imititating martial arts that developed between Song dynasty and late Yuan/early Ming Dynasty.

[Ben Gash]

But not caring is a significant and valid position in this case, as what difference does it really make? You may as well sit here and debate wether Gee Sim, Wu Mei and Fong Sai Yuk originated Guandong Sil Lum styles. It's not that important.
ANYWAY, if you look at Fanzi, Xingyi and Chuojiao (and probably Tong Bei as well) you could say with a fair degree of certainty that they share the same martial ancestor. Now Xingyi, which has the smallest syllabus and the most basic external appearance (which would lead you to suspect it's the least changed) contains characteristics which would imply that it's derived from long spear fighting, and so you could make a case for these styles evolving from the Song dynasty military, which would lead back (directly or indirectly) to Yue Fei.
However, this is inductive reasoning, and with 800 years, 3 invasions, 3 civil wars and the cultural revolution I'm afraid the chances of any hard evidence being found are slim.

[Wong Ying Home]

Sal

I am sorry to say that your statement re by 1980 there were no practioners anywhere in china of hebei eagle claw, is Totally innaccurate !.....

I am quite surprised you made that statement and would ask you to kindly state how you arrived at that conclusion.

Thank you in advance

[ngokfei]

ghost....
The website is quoting the 1st eagle claw book written in english by Master Shum Leung of NYC from 1980. yes alot of inaccuracies exist as do in many if not all the books produced during that time period. Finding individuals who could translate martial arts texts accurately into english is still a problem even to today.

Pt. the new edition of his book from 1998 uses the the term Jurchen now.

carry on with your research. You probably have alot of work on your plate with the innaccuracies in the histories of the majority of TCMA in existance today. Look forward to your findings and publishing of your work as well.

Ah, you got there before me Wong Ying. I know my sifu had made a comment in 1986 when he visited china and couldn't find an active teacher of Eagle Claw. I'm not surpised as he was part of a gov't tour and he had no connections in China. A quick trip to the Lau Village or the Shanghai Chin Woo would have been of benefit.

as an ending comment, I think researchers are explorers. Sure I've read alot of books but it wasn't until I actually traveled the the place of my subjects origin did alot of info become available. From what I see today very few actually do field work.

[ghostexorcist]

From what I see today very few actually do field work.

Field work is expensive! I would LOVE for my college to sponsor me, but that probably wouldn't happen until I was either working on or after I achieved my doctorate in Chinese history. The closest I've ever come to China is when I served in the U.S. Army 82nd Airborne Division. My platoon flew into an "undisclosed" area in the Middle East in support of “Operation Iraqi Freedom”. (The operation name does not denote my former location). I’ve also got Chinese friends who currently live or were born in China, but that doesn’t really count. I’ll get there someday.

[Wong Ying Home]

Eric,

Does that mean as an explorer I get my Star Tek Badge for Boldly Going Where none have gone before !:D

My reserach/field trips are/is self funded

[ngokfei]

Yes ensin Dale but remember if you are going to drink the local water make sure your bring your hypospray:p

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal

I am sorry to say that your statement re by 1980 there were no practioners anywhere in china of hebei eagle claw, is Totally innaccurate !.....

I am quite surprised you made that statement and would ask you to kindly state how you arrived at that conclusion.

Thank you in advance

Ooops! I am missing some lines.
I forgot to to type at the end "according to Leung Shum's books, but clearly Eagle Claw either of Shaolin or Hebei origin is found all over China and Taiwan and Hong Kong, into the rest of South East Asia (Malaysia, Vietnam)."

thanks for pointing that out.

[ghostexorcist]

Pt. the new edition of his book from 1998 uses the the term Jurchen now.

Does the new edition still say "about 1250"? It should say "circa 1130".

[Shaolinlueb]

sal

im going to throw you another question.

shangdong eagle claw, where are its origins? and how come it looks so different form lau family style ;)

[Sal Canzonieri]

sal

im going to throw you another question.

shangdong eagle claw, where are its origins? and how come it looks so different form lau family style ;)

There are other Eagle claw styles that are not related to old Shaolin nor Hebei / Lau family style.
Other Eagle Claw styles come from other ideas and sources, animal imitation martial arts.

If a style's Eagle Claw forms are based on Yue Fei Jia Quan and Fanzi Quan (almost the same thing) then it is related in some way to Lau family Eagle Claw. Especially if it comes out of the Ching Mo school.
Keep in mind that a lot of the forms that the Lau family teaches today as eagle claw are Eagle Claw VERSIONS of forms from various styles (such as their tai tzu form, hong quan forms, gong li quan, Ba bu Lian huan form, and many more.). Only a few of the forms are distinctly eagle claw forms that go way back.

Shandong arts generally often descend at some point from Tai Tzu Quan / Tai Tzu Hong Quan. There is some connection to the Song Dynasty, when eagle claw chin na technique was popularized in the military.
More than likely Shandong eagle claw comes from the Jin Gang style, which has eagle claw forms, also a 13 Claw form.

There is also Goldern Eagle style (southern eagle claw), there is Black Eagle Claw style, among others.

[Shaolinlueb]

Sal

you are a wealth of info, can you tell me more about these other eagle claw styles when you get time?

thanks
Adam

[ngokfei]

still awake this Christmas Eve. The kids are asleep so now the work begins:D

Just getting my thoughts together.

Yue Fei obtained the status of a general/field marshal. As I believe was required for officers of any Dynasty particular skills were required (kind of like west point here in the states)

horsemanship, Archery, Weapons (spear/lance, sword), Wrestling, Physical fitness (weights, running, etc). So if this is considered the standard then he would of had to of learned these from one of his teachers (zhou tong and Chen guang).

Also stated in various texts is that he trained his troops personally and that after his death they left the service? One name that comes to mind is Niu Gao who appears both in the Xing Yi legend as well as in Shaolin's Yijinjing research as well.

any how here is some notes I've acquired:Taken from the website www.chinafrominside.com authored by jarek.

Song Dynasty general Yue Fei, who is said to create Xinyiquan. Yue Fei’s manuscript was found 500 years after his death by Ji Longfeng in Zhongnan Mountains in Shaanxi Province. Ji, famous for his spear skills, changed the spear movements into barehand techniques using principles from the Yue Fei’s manuscript,

There is another story about Dai Longbang’s teacher that can be found in some books published during republic period (1911-1949). In these books Dai is said to have studied Yi Quan (Mind Boxing) with Niu Xixian in Kaifeng. Niu’s ancestor was Niu Gao, one of Yue Fei’s officers and disciples! True or not, the story brings the name of Yue Fei as the creator/exponent of Xinyi Quan back again.

Some time later I had a chance to have a look at a very interesting book - "Secret Methods of Xingyiquan Basic Practice" (Xingyiquan Jiben Xinggong Mifa) written by Gao Jiangheng and published in 1935. In his book Gao Jiangheng recorded stories told by his teacher, Jia Dajun (Guo Weihan's disciple) as well as described basic practice methods of his style. The contents of the book was different from anything I had heard about Guo Weihan's system before.

1.Historical part of the book sheds completely new light on the early history of Xinyiquan as well as relations between Dai Longbang, his sons, Guo Weihan and Li Laoneng (this issue however will be further discussed in one of the next articles on this site).

According to Gao's book (chapter on "Origins") Guo Weihan was nephew of Dai Longbang's wife - although in the light of new "discoveries" this relation does not seem to be true but this question will be briefly discussed below - and learnt his martial art from Dai Longbang. In 1838 he went to Henan's Shijiadian together with Dai Wenliang and Dai Wenxiong to help in managing the inn Dai Longbang ran there and learn martial arts. In 1841 Niu Xixian (Niu Xixian was Niu Gao's descendant; Niu Gao was one of the general's in Yue Fei's army and Yue Fei's disciple) came to Shijiadian and Guo Weihan and Dai brothers became his disciples and learnt martial arts from him. Gao Jiangheng also mentions that there was an oral transmission of Dai brothers and Guo Weihan learning from Li Zheng while in Shijiadian.
In the generation chart in his book Gao places Guo Weihan on the same level (same generation) as Dai brothers, below Dai Longbang and Niu Xixian, but above Li Luoneng and Dai Wuchang, Dai Liangdong, Wen Laoliu, Jia Dajun (Gao's teacher) and others.


Monk Dao Ji/Toa Gai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****ao

Returning Home
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/qing_1/ho_1976.280b.htm

16 lohans
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/eac/ho_1985.227.1.htmTaken from the book “Spring Autumn of Chinese Martial arts – 5000 years” by Kang Gewu

1122, the 4th year of Emperor Xuan He of the Northern Song Dynasty.

Folk Wuyi (martial artist) Yue Fei joined the army to fight against Jin. In his younger days he learned shooting (archery) from Zhou Tong and then Qiang (spear) practice from Cheng guang. Withhis invinciple wushu he made outstandinga chievents in the war against Jin. The later generations of Wushu specialists named him as the initiator of “Xingyi Quan, Yue Shi San Shou and Yue Jia Qiang as a way of paying respect to his Wuyi and integrity.

Around 1870 “the 9th year of Emperor Tong Zhi of the Qing Dynasty”

Liu Shijun, a native of Xiongxian, Hebei Province went to the Capital in Beijing where he taught Yue Shi San Shou. He himself said that he learned it from Monk Fa Cheng. This Quan (form) has only 9 movmenets (consisting of 3 techniques at 3 levels: upper, middle and lower). Later it was rearanged by his student Liu Dekuan into “Yue Shi Lian Quan (linking fist).

1911 “the 3rd year of E,mperor Xuan Tong of the Qing Dynasty”

Liu Dekuan passes away. Also known as Jingyuan, he was born in Canzhou, Hebei Province. In the beginning he learned Da Qiang from Xu Liu and then later studied Ji Fa (hooked lance) with a person called Shangguan. Towards the end of the time of Emperor Tong Zhi (around 1868) he went to Beijing to learn Bagua Zhang from Dong Hai chuan, Taijiquan from Yang Luchan and later Yue Shi San Shou from Liu Shijun. Through study he achieved a deep understanding of the art and was inspired to created the 8 routines of Yue Shi Lian Quan. This Quan is compiled by him on the basis of Yue Shi San Shou. He also took Bagua Zhang San Shou as a basis to create Si Shou (64 hands) Bagua Zhang (aka the Liu Style), which is widely practiced today.

1933, July

Chen Zizheng, a native of Xicongxian, Hebei Province died.
He created Ying Zhao Fanziquan based on Yue Style San Shou, Fanzi Quan and Ying Zhao Gong.

[ngokfei]

some further points regarding military training during the song dynasty.

From Spring Autumn of Chinese martial Arts by Kang Gewu


960, 1st year of emperor Jian Long Northern Song dynasty.
Northern song and at the same time Liao, the orthern qidan/khitan polical power also existed. … january and july they would go hunting, hold competions and train in martial arts. The weapons used included bows and arrows, long and short qiang spear, the fu, yue and chui.

962, the 3rd year of Jian Long
Emperor Taizong held military traininga nd troop inspections in the capital….. reviewed the troops sparring and shooting.

1043, the 3rd year of Qing Li
Establishmet of military schools for training military personnel.

1070, 3rd year of Xi Ning
Bao Jia system set up with 11 wuy training grounds….. later it spread to the villages…promoted the spreading of wuyi among the people.

1078, 1st year of Yuan Feng
The edict of “examination of different kinds of Wuyi in the Capital” laid down the standards of military training and the examination of wuyi skills… The issue of “regulations of testing the shooting and riding skills of the officials” stipulated the standard for recruiting military officers.

1079, 2nd year of yuan feng.
“teaching Methods and Illustrations” provided the 1st written material and illustrations on standup shooting,s hooting from horseback, practicing Qiang/spear on horseback, sparring on horseback and infantry fighting.

[ghostexorcist]

horsemanship, Archery, Weapons (spear/lance, sword), Wrestling, Physical fitness (weights, running, etc). So if this is considered the standard then he would of had to of learned these from one of his teachers (zhou tong and Chen guang).
...

Folk Wuyi (martial artist) Yue Fei joined the army to fight against Jin. In his younger days he learned shooting (archery) from Zhou Tong and then Qiang (spear) practice from Cheng guang.

Chen Guang was not Yue Fei’s spear teacher. His name was not mentioned in either Yue Fei’s historical or fictional biographies. In the 28th chapter of the Qing Dynasty book Er Wang Shi (鄂王事), it states, “岳飞及冠时,外祖父姚大翁聘请当时的枪手陈广教授岳飞枪法。"


“When Yue Fei reached the conferring hat period, his maternal grandfather, Yao Daweng, hired a spear expert, Chen Guang, to teach Yue Fei spear fighting."*

As far as I know, one of the earliest mentions of Chen Guang was in the Qing Dynasty work Tanyin Xian Zhi (湯陰縣誌 – “Tangyin County Record”). I've heard some people speculate that Chen Guang was a famous spearplayer in the Qing Dynasty, so they inserted his name into Yue Fei's history.

*Conferring hat is an ancient way of saying ‘20 years old’. I’ve heard Yue Fei joined the army at the age of 19, so 20 would be a little bit too late to start learning the spear.

[Shaolinlueb]

so this is what confuses me.

if the eagle claw style as we know it today was created in the 1800's... 1900's then

im confused

in shums book it goes

ngok fei --> lai chin --> toa jai --> far shing --> lau shu chun --> lau shing yao.

here it splits up to chang tzi ching, to ng wai nung to shum leung

other side

to lau kai man to lau fat mon to ng wai nung to shum leung.

im confused with sal's use of mandarin names and the use of cantonese names in leung shum's book.

lau shing yao is Liu Chengyou ???

cause it makes sense. i have noticed things very the same between shum's forms and the lau's but some details are different in each one. im trying to match up the mandarin names with the canto ones. i understand everything about the different styles that sal talked about.

[ngokfei]

ghostexer.

As a researcher I think you have to get away from making absolute comments "yes or no".

All you can state is that you have not come across any documents that lead you to a particular conclusion or statement.

As you stated your research is limited to what you have obtained outside of the country of origin of your research.

so shaolinlueb what are you confused about.

here is some cantonese to mandarin to help you out.

Jow Tong = Zhou Tong
Ngok Fei = Yue Fei
Lai Chin = Li Quan
Toa Gai = Dao Ji (aka Shi Tao & zhu ruanji)
Lau Shu Chun = Liu Shi Jun
Lau Dook Fuin - Liu Dekuan
Lau Shing You = Liu Cheng You

[lunghushan]

So Christmas day has come at last and Santa's little elves failed to make my Lamborghini. Either that or Santa failed to deliver it. Either that or I've been a bad boy.

Or maybe B.S. legends aren't true and Yue Fei didn't really create Eagle Claw after all.

[ghostexorcist]

ghostexer.

As a researcher I think you have to get away from making absolute comments "yes or no".

All you can state is that you have not come across any documents that lead you to a particular conclusion or statement.

As you stated your research is limited to what you have obtained outside of the country of origin of your research.

Your book on China's military history, it mentions Chen Guang right? See if the info is cited and find the book in the bibliography. Then try to look the book up on the internet to see when it was written. If it wasn't from this book, please tell me where the material came from.

I’m sure you are tired of me relying on Yue Fei’s “historical” biography written in 1345, but Chen Guang’s name is not in it. There are two versions of Yue Fei’s “fictional” biography; one was written in between the 17th-18th century and the second was written in the late 19th century. Why isn’t Chen Guang’s name mentioned there? Two different versions of this book completely overlook Chen Guang’s name. I’m not saying you have to believe me, but you shouldn’t necessarily believe what is written in your source either. If you would like to see Yue Fei’s historical biography, see HERE! ( http://www.yifan.net/yihe/novels/history/songshiytt/sshi365.html). You can read for your self that Cheng Guang is never mentioned.

I don’t think field work would help me out too much since the myths of Yue Fei’s life are so wide spread. Even the historical biography mentions the flood and the magical peng who lands on the roof (hence the given name Fei – “fly"). Take the Yellow River flood for example. Just about any person who has heard the story will tell you that Yue Fei’s father died. But Yue Fei’s historical biography says he survived. Also Tangyin county, Angyang prefecture is NOT sitting on the Yellow river, its actually well to the west of it. There is a distributary of the Wei River (the largest tributary of the Yellow River) that runs either right by or through the county, which is the most likely culprit. Several months ago, I read how a tourist recently drowned in this same distributary in Tangyin county.

However, I would like to travel to China to take a look at there archives regarding Yue Fei. I’ve corresponded with Honorable Sir T.L. Yang (the modern translator of Yue Fei’s fictional biography) and Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming in regards to Zhou Tong and even they couldn't answer all of my questions. Sir Yang looked at the original Chinese version and said Shaolin was never mentioned. Dr. Yang told me the info about Zhou Tong in his books came from a library in China. He said he would look it up for me the next time he is in China (but I wouldn’t hold him to it since he’s a busy man). I contacted Sir Yang through his publisher and Dr. Yang through his association's website.

Apart from legend, very little is known about his life (besides the 1345 biography) before he entered the military. If you want to find out more about the subject, I suggest that you go to an actual history forum like the China History Forum (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/) for instance. You should speak with “Wujiang”, a forum leader and moderator. This person will tell you that neither biographies are worth much (as I have stated the historical biography drastically over exaggerates Yue Fei's military prowess), but I’m sure he will set you straight on what is what and who is who. I wouldn’t say he is THE expert on the subject, but he knows a great deal more than me at the moment. I can’t compete with native speakers/readers of the language who grew up studying this stuff their entire lives. As I’ve stated before, I don’t claim to know everything.

I also wanted to tell you that I finished my description of Zhou Tong’s character in Yue Fei’s fictional biography. It made that section drastically bigger. I could have written amore detailed version, but I just wanted to make it as short and to the point as possible. See HERE! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28monk%29)

[Shaolinlueb]

yue fei's tomb is in hangzhou and i rode past it in a bus. i never got visit it. i feel so mad at myself. please it was 100 ft in front of me and i was like oh, that girl lied she said it was far away. **** her. i was mad i would have loved to visit it. next time. its around the west lake in hangzhou. which is 2 hours southwest of shanghai by train.

so lau shing you created what we know to be modern eagle claw style then it explains why chang zhi ching and lau kai man can have different stuff, sorta. blah im drunk and its christmas i shouldnt be posting :p :)


edit*
but arent all of china's heros exagarated in their bios? look at guan yu and zhang fie for instance. i think they mare great but both were very confident which in turn many believe led them to their defeat.

[ghostexorcist]

Despite it’s supernatural elements, I would like to note Yue Fei’s historical biography is volume 365 (biography 124) of the History of the Song [Dynasty] (宋史), which is one of the Twenty-Four Histories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Four_Histories) of China. Click the link for more details. It is one of the Three Historiographies of the Yuan Dynasty (元末三史). Altogether, I believe this work has 496 volumes. It was compiled by Yuan Dynasty Prime Minister Toktoghan (脫脫) in 1345.


yue fei's tomb is in hangzhou and i rode past it in a bus. i never got visit it. i feel so mad at myself. please it was 100 ft in front of me and i was like oh, that girl lied she said it was far away. **** her. i was mad i would have loved to visit it. next time. its around the west lake in hangzhou. which is 2 hours southwest of shanghai by train.

That is going to be my first stop in Hangzhou. I would also like to see the carving of Monk Putai in the side of that cliff or mountain. I don't exactly know where it's at.

[ngokfei]

For a copy of the book you can order it from
www.plumpub.com
direct your inquiry to Ted Mancuso as he would be able to tell you if the original Chinese Text Book has a Bibliography,source list in the book or even better you can write directly to the author Professor Kang Gewu and ask him the source of his Chen Guang statement.

The sources you site are both Fantasy Novels and Gov't documents which while helpful are just one individuals opinions as they also do not contain sources for their materials as well.

Checking various sources on Chinese Military it can be presumed that Yue Fei would have obtained much more training than what his Folk Wuyi teacher Zhou Tong (who may have been in the military or even a shaolin person) could teach him.

and yes the chinese history forum is a great site, been a member for a couple of years.

also another source of info you may want to seek is exponents of Yue Jia Quan, there are quite a few books out today but yes they are in Chinese

There are many styles of Chuan named after General Yue Fei of the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1279) These include

Yue-family Chuan of Hubei, Henan and Anhui provinces,
Yue-school fist plays of Hunan and Sichuan provinces,
Yue-family martial arts of Guangdong Province,
Yue Fei Sanshau
Yue-style chain of fist plays.


Yue-family Chuan practised in Huangmei County of Hubei Province is simple and uncomplicated and has a close relationship with the Yue family. his sons, Yue Zhen and Yue Ting, and his subordinates.
They taught the arts of Yue-family Chuan in Huangmei, Guangji, Qichun in Hubei as well as the southeastern part of the province. This style of Chuan has been practised by 20 generations over about 800 years. It is recorded that General Yue Fei had been to Huangmei twice, and Yue Zhen accompanied his father and stayed in Huangmei. After Yue Fei was framed and secretly killed by treacherous officials of the Imperial Court, Yue Ting went to join Yue Zhen in Huangmei. The Yue's practised the Chuan and trained their army men in an attempt to avenge their father's death until the Song Dynasty perished. However, the Yue-family Chuan was passed down from generation to generation.

The Yue-family Chuan now practised in Henan Province is said to have been passed on by a person named Fan from Tangyin in Henan, who followed Yue Fei in his expedition against invaders from the Jin Dynasty in the north. When Fan returned to his native town, he taught the Yue-family Chuan and weapon plays to his offspring, including Fan Ju who mastered the arts and continued to pass them down.

In Anhui, the Yue-family Chuan is called King Yue Chuan. Fang Yinglong, a native of Shandong Province, learned the basics from his grandfather and then followed Ji Qingshe to learn the Yue-style hammer play. Fang served as a martial arts instructor in the army of warlord, Feng Yuxiang. Before the establishment of the People's Republic of China, he went to Bengbu to teach the Yue-style hammer Chuan. Some of Fang's disciples were also found in Guangxi.

There are two theories about the evolution of the Yue-family Chuan in Sichuan Province. One is that Zhang Tianhu of Hebei taught the Yue-family Chuan in Sichuan in the middle of the Qing Dynasty while Tao Rujie of Shuangliu County taught the arts in Chengdu and other places. The other says that Wu Daoren of Hubei Province passed it on to Sichuan in the late years of the Qing Dynasty.

In Emperor Daoguang's reign (1821-1850) of the Qing Dynasty, martial arts instructor Liu Shijun of Hebei taught a nine-move Yue-style fist play in the barracks of Beijing garrison. His disciple Liu Dekuan developed the style to make it an easy-to-learn, well-linked style of unarmed play. Thus it is called Yue-style linked Chuan.

According to the remnants of the manuscripts of Yue-Family Chuan by Huang Chunlou, this style of Chuan was spread to Guangdong Province when Huang taught it in Meixian County in the late years of the Qing Dynasty. Because most local people referred to it as "discipline," this style of the Yue-family Chuan came to be called the Yue-family discipline.

[ngokfei]

you can get further research material from this "martial arts" books. Would make sense to refer to books claiming Yue Fei's involvement in their Martial Art then an entertaining novel or a Historical Gov't Source.

[ngokfei]

here's 2 more

[ghostexorcist]

For a copy of the book you can order it from
www.plumpub.com
direct your inquiry to Ted Mancuso as he would be able to tell you if the original Chinese Text Book has a Bibliography, source list in the book or even better you can write directly to the author Professor Kang Gewu and ask him the source of his Chen Guang statement.

I don’t want to buy the book, I would just like to see the source of this professor’s info. Is the book you quoted from in English? It sounds like the version you have has no bibliography at all.

I see that this professor is a martial researcher. Does he hold any kind of academic degrees? I've looked around and I think actually contacting this person would be like chewing my arm off at the elbow. I've contacted the "Plum" people before and they only reply if I'm pricing books. They never reply with answers to questions. However, I will contact this Ted Mancuso person. But if the professor's info comes from the Qing (which mine does regarding Chen Guang), it won't stand up against the claim he lived in the Song. I hope I am proven wrong.


The sources you site are both Fantasy Novels and Gov't documents which while helpful are just one individuals opinions as they also do not contain sources for their materials as well.

Why would these sources, written centuries apart and by different people, neglect to mention Cheng Guang? Then he appears all of the sudden in material from the late Qing and forward. Where was he and where did he come from?

I’ll admit that the supernatural elements do take away from the biography’s ‘scholarliness’, but historians use the “Twenty-Four Histories” as their sources. There is no need for the government to state where they got the info. I won’t even begin to pretend to know where all of the material for the “History of the Song” came from. But because of its great size (496 volumes), I'm sure more than just one person gathered the information.

Just in case you meant the English Wikipedia article for the ‘histories’ didn’t quote it’s sources (meaning I read too much into your statement), here is the Chinese Wikipedia page: Clicke here! (http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%8C%E5%8D%81%E5%9B%9B%E5%8F%B2) It gives sources at the bottom.


Checking various sources on Chinese Military it can be presumed that Yue Fei would have obtained much more training than what his Folk Wuyi teacher Zhou Tong (who may have been in the military or even a shaolin person) could teach him.

Are you saying you believe that Yue Fei gained his training in the military? That is what I believe.


also another source of info you may want to seek is exponents of Yue Jia Quan, there are quite a few books out today but yes they are in Chinese

I wouldn't trust any info given to me from any person who practices martial arts attributed to Yue Fei since they’ve no doubt been fed martial legends regarding the origins of their style. And I don't trust any martial arts book which presents the same trumpt up legends.


and yes the chinese history forum is a great site, been a member for a couple of years.

I realize that forums are not the best place for factual information, but ask around and tell me if you can find any kind of a source written prior to the ming that Shows Chen Guang being Yue Fei’s spear teacher. Or that which can show Zhou Tong was a Shaolin Monk.

Thanks for showing me those books.

[ngokfei]

lets get back to the title of the thread.

Yue Fei was a military man. Oldest documents have him as a student of Zhou Tong for archery alone. Later works have him also studying spear techniques either with zhou tong or Chen Guang.

His career has him at various positions/posts varying from a lowly cadet to a field marshal/general. He is known for his superbly trained and disciplined troops obvious from the many battles he won fighting bandits and the Jin/jurchen.

Since he was a military man he would have definetly been trained in the military arts at the time which included hand to hand combat.

Ying Jow Pai's history is based on a Lai Chin/Li Quan who is said to have been a martial artist of the Fanzi system who also obtained training in techniques/skills that were attributed to Yue Fei.

Could these skills have been from yue fei? Of course. There exist various Yue Jia Quan systems today (some with direct links to Yue Fei through his soldiers or through his 2 sons)

All that can be said is the Yue Fei is an Ancestor of today's Modern Eagle Claw System.

Takin Sal's method of comparing Actual Skills/Techniques I've seen many similarities between other systems that also claim Yue Fei as their ancestor as well.

That's good enough for me.

Now getting into the splinter discussion proving who yue fei's teachers were will always be left to speculation as there exist no documents (to my knowledge) focusing on him as a martial artist outside of Martial Manuals written by exponents of said Systems crediting him as their founder.

enough said, no lets get back to Martial Arts.

ps: Thanks Ghostexorcist for your thread and research. Keep us informed of your future findings.

[Shaolinlueb]

but eric i want to know more about the other eagle claw styles too :(