Martial Arts Accreditation and Governing Bodies [Archive]

David Jamieson

12-19-2006, 04:55 PM

If you are talking about creating a venue that can be governed and evaluated then yes, this would fall under combat sports such as ufc, wbc, wbf, various amateur sportive combative organizations and so on.

For styles, there are so many that you can't have a blanket group that covers them all. It becomes moot quickly. But for venues that produce a result through competition, well, that's doable because then everyone is under the same rules.

But individual arts very often have a lot of components that go beyond even the cumulative information that a commitee could have.

wing chun cannot judge choy li fut cannot judge shaolin cannot judge wutang cannot judge hung kuen cannot judge omei and so on and so forth. None of them individually have everything required to judge each other and very few within each subset have the ability to fully understand and judge only their own.

ergo, if it is not under the exact same ruleset to be judged, then it is usually just a way to get someone to pay cash to get a piece of paper that says they are this or that.

Which means nothing in comparison to what's really in your hands... so to speak. :)

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 05:06 PM

Yeah, I think there should be standards:

a) Physical safety standards.
b) Safety standards for disease especially blood borne diseases.

So instructors should be forced to have basic CPR and first aid education, so they can give medical care if somebody gets injured, and the school curriculum should be designed towards safety.

And there should be standards and education about diseases such as hepatitis-C, staph infection, etc., which can easily pass from person to person in the school. There should be standards on protective gear against blood spattering such as requirements towards shoes and clothing, especially in regards to sparring, standards of non-porous mats, standards of cleanup, etc.

Of course, none of that is going to happen because nobody wants to worry about it.

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Yeah, I think there should be standards:

a) Physical safety standards.

And who would determine those? Would the same standards apply to Muay Thai that apply to Tie Cheese push-my-hands groups? Sorry to be so sarcastic, but the standardization you bring up belongs solely in the competitive venues... Otherwise training will devolve to the lowest, safest denominator (which would make my training pretty darn boring...).

b) Safety standards for disease especially blood borne diseases.

Again, primarily an issue in competitive venues, but as a business consideration it certainly bears consideration... A teacher should know something about bloodborne pathogens and how to isolate any biohazardous material. I'm lucky - my senior instructor is an RN, and 3 of our students are all surgical techs...

So instructors should be forced to have basic CPR and first aid education, so they can give medical care if somebody gets injured, and the school curriculum should be designed towards safety.

First, I disagree with "forced" CPR training. "Strongly recommended" for responsible teachers, but not forced.

Second, how do you design a fight training curriculum where nobody ever runs the risk of getting knocked around and/or injured? That's the whole point - learning to defend against an attack that would (not "could") injure you if you fail to deal with it appropriately.

And there should be standards and education about diseases such as hepatitis-C, staph infection, etc., which can easily pass from person to person in the school.

Or the student can simply read the liability waiver and realize that they're going to be in close physical contact with people they really know little or nothing about. It's a risk you take, like getting ringworm while wrestling/grappling, just worse.

There should be standards on protective gear against blood spattering such as requirements towards shoes and clothing, especially in regards to sparring, standards of non-porous mats, standards of cleanup, etc.

That will, most likely, eliminate 99% of martial arts teachers starting out... MAists are notoriously poorly funded, and I doubt anyone first opening a school has the kind of ready cash to bleed out for things that are mostly unnecessary (and were unavailable during the "not-so-good ol' days" of yore).

Of course, none of that is going to happen because nobody wants to worry about it.

You sound like someone with an axe to grind. Martial arts isn't knitting class. People get hit, thrown, bumped, bruised, and occasionally they bleed on you. It happens. Either deal with it, find a way to cope, or quit and find someplace safer to spend your free time. Dangerous pastimes carry potentially dangerous consequences. If you aren't prepared to face them, you shouldn't play in the first place.

Just my 2 cents. Mileage may, and quite likely will, vary.

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 05:26 PM

You sound like someone with an axe to grind. Martial arts isn't knitting class. People get hit, thrown, bumped, bruised, and occasionally they bleed on you. It happens. Either deal with it, find a way to cope, or quit and find someplace safer to spend your free time. Dangerous pastimes carry potentially dangerous consequences. If you aren't prepared to face them, you shouldn't play in the first place.

Just my 2 cents. Mileage may, and quite likely will, vary.

Yeah, so I don't go to those schools where there is hepatitis and other risks. If there is an ax to grind, yes, I think that most all schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students.

I've met many, many, many more people injured in martial arts than on the street. Such that I think martial arts the way it is taught most places is a hazardous practice that should not be engaged in to learn self defense.

So every time I go to a new school that looks like it might be interesting and see the instructors not knowing CPR, not knowing basic medical knowledge, not protecting their students, not cleaning the mats, it is a bit irksome.

It would be so easy to have some standards but instead they don't want to do it.

That, IMHO, is just criminal and stupid.

That's my 2 cents. :)

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 05:53 PM

Yeah, so I don't go to those schools where there is hepatitis and other risks.

That'd be pretty much all of them, don't you think? How do you know if your training partner, sweating and breathing all over you, isn't infected with something?

If there is an ax to grind, yes, I think that most all schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students.

There may be some, but I think saying "most" is over-generalization... I saw an RBWI class years ago where the instructor threw the student, who landed poorly and quite likely broke a toe as a result, and the instructor didn't give a second's attention to it... He walked away, and another senior student berated the injured student for not jumping up promptly to train.

However, though I realize the development of fighting spirit, the ability to continue on through pain and injury, is a vital component of martial training, that was a poor showing by the instructor... I'd say a better showing would be for the instructor to tape the toe (if he knew how), and then berate the student if he didn't at least make an attempt to continue training (whether he actually succeeded or not is something else entirely...)

I've met many, many, many more people injured in martial arts than on the street. Such that I think martial arts the way it is taught most places is a hazardous practice that should not be engaged in to learn self defense.

I'd counter that there are far, far fewer people engaged in "street" encounters than KOMO4 or any of the other reactionary news stations here locally would have us believe... Martial training, by its very core nature, is violent and dangerous. It is simply an integral part of training. If your training doesn't risk your injury, then it's nowhere remotely close to "realistic," is it? You wouldn't be learning to defend against a violent attacker, but a safe, non-threatening classmate, and that's something entirely different, don't you think?

So every time I go to a new school that looks like it might be interesting and see the instructors not knowing CPR, not knowing basic medical knowledge, not protecting their students, not cleaning the mats, it is a bit irksome.

Perhaps... Then again, what are your CPR and medical certifications? Do you hold yourself to the same standards of training that you expect from these schools? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just asking... I'm an EMT-B, I'm BLS-Healthcare and Instructor certified, and I'm also a trained massage therapist (for what that's worth), my senior instructor is an RN and a Nurse Anesthetist, and, as stated before, at least 3 of our students are surgical techs, and another is a Nurse Anesthetist as well...

Though, as a counter-point, in 21 years of training I've seen or otherwise directly experienced no more than a half-dozen nosebleeds, cut fingers (during weapons work), smashed fingers (again, weapons), and only 2 or 3 KOs. That's pretty safe, considering the amount of contact we use...

It would be so easy to have some standards but instead they don't want to do it.

There's the trick of enforcing such standards... Given that our local government up here in WA can't handle oh-so-many things as it is (the recent windstorm is one that springs to mind, as is the "crippling" effects of only an inch or two of snow), I can't see how it can spare the money nor manpower to police the mostly slap-and-tickle schools in the greater Puget Sound area...

SevenStar

12-19-2006, 05:58 PM

And who would determine those? Would the same standards apply to Muay Thai that apply to Tie Cheese push-my-hands groups? Sorry to be so sarcastic, but the standardization you bring up belongs solely in the competitive venues... Otherwise training will devolve to the lowest, safest denominator (which would make my training pretty darn boring...).

First, I disagree with "forced" CPR training. "Strongly recommended" for responsible teachers, but not forced.

to be certified as a coach in judo, you MUST be cpr certified. If I recall correctly, you cannot run a club under the usja unless you have at least one coach, meaning at least one person with a cpr cert. Fitness centers that have MA classes sometimes require a cpr cert as well.

Naturally, the governing bodies would vary from art to art, no taiji and muay thai would not be regulated in the same way. But, that is not to say that they won't both require certifications of some sort.

Second, how do you design a fight training curriculum where nobody ever runs the risk of getting knocked around and/or injured? That's the whole point - learning to defend against an attack that would (not "could") injure you if you fail to deal with it appropriately.

that's not what he said. He said it should be centered around safety, not that nobody should ever get hurt. try this test - have students spar full contact, full speed and power - like they would in a ring - with no pads. Then try it with pads. Then try it with pads and only about 80% power, etc. note the injury level changes.

Here is another test. Full speed randori (judo sparring) on a hardwood or concrete floor. Then try it on mats. This is really just common sense...

That will, most likely, eliminate 99% of martial arts teachers starting out... MAists are notoriously poorly funded, and I doubt anyone first opening a school has the kind of ready cash to bleed out for things that are mostly unnecessary (and were unavailable during the "not-so-good ol' days" of yore).

why? the school doesn't have to provide the gear, just let students know what they must purchase. And in a contact school, such things are not unnecessary at all.

You sound like someone with an axe to grind. Martial arts isn't knitting class. People get hit, thrown, bumped, bruised, and occasionally they bleed on you. It happens. Either deal with it, find a way to cope, or quit and find someplace safer to spend your free time. Dangerous pastimes carry potentially dangerous consequences. If you aren't prepared to face them, you shouldn't play in the first place.

Just my 2 cents. Mileage may, and quite likely will, vary.

you can get hit, thrown and bruised up all you want - and you can do it with safety provisions. I find it somewhat ironic that a muay thai and judo guy is having this discussion, but knowing and seeing the damage that can be done on a mat and with pads, I also know the greater damage that can be done without them.

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 06:18 PM

to be certified as a coach in judo, you MUST be cpr certified. If I recall correctly, you cannot run a club under the usja unless you have at least one coach, meaning at least one person with a cpr cert. Fitness centers that have MA classes sometimes require a cpr cert as well.

Granted... But the judo governing bodies are organizations sanctioning training for a competitive arena. You can certainly train judo while outside the auspices of such an organization. The comment from lunghushan was that "most schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students," which my experience shows to not only be the case, but rather the complete opposite. The schools in my area (down by Fort Lewis, where lunghushan is in Seattle) are almost overly concerned with the potential for injury, to the degree that most of them hardly resemble fighting arts at all! :D All the schools that deal with throws/falls/ukemi/etc. have more than adequate mats/protective flooring, and the schools that actually make contact (there aren't many from what I've seen) have fully adequate provision for pads/gloves/etc.

As for lunghushan's concerns about pathogenic contamination, it's a valid concern, but one that has to be dealt with individually. Even mats that are scrubbed/mopped with bleach will still manage to transmit ringworm. It happens. If a person doesn't want the risk, then they can choose not to participate in that particular art/style/sport.

Naturally, the governing bodies would vary from art to art, no taiji and muay thai would not be regulated in the same way. But, that is not to say that they won't both require certifications of some sort.

That doesn't appear to be what the Aussies are doing. They have a Governmental body that somehow manages to license or otherwise sanction all and sundry. I don't care enough to research it far enough to debate every point of their process; I don't believe MA need to be Governmentally controlled, period.

that's not what he said. He said it should be centered around safety, not that nobody should ever get hurt. try this test - have students spar full contact, full speed and power - like they would in a ring - with no pads. Then try it with pads. Then try it with pads and only about 80% power, etc. note the injury level changes.

That goes without saying. I took lunghushan's generalization to imply that this basic safety consideration doesn't exist where he's at (which simply can't be true in as broad a scope as his post implies).

Here is another test. Full speed randori (judo sparring) on a hardwood or concrete floor. Then try it on mats. This is really just common sense...

Again, I don't debate this. This is good common sense, but as lunghushan seems to imply, it simply isn't the case up in Seattle... I doubt this to be true for the MA community at large, but then I avoid Seattle like the plague...

why? the school doesn't have to provide the gear, just let students know what they must purchase. And in a contact school, such things are not unnecessary at all.

The school is going to expect the students to bring mats along with? What about kick shields? Sure, they can buy their own marshmallow helmets, mittens, and footies, but following lunghushan's outline, the school should pad every firm surface... ;) That's gonna cost moneys. :D Seriously, though, he said that instructors should "protect their students." I guess that means something different to different people.

you can get hit, thrown and bruised up all you want - and you can do it with safety provisions.

In our school, we don't wear headgear, gloves, booties, mouthpieces or cups. You learn to defend yourself, or you get hit. It's good incentive to get the hell out of the way.

I find it somewhat ironic that a muay thai and judo guy is having this discussion, but knowing and seeing the damage that can be done on a mat and with pads, I also know the greater damage that can be done without them.

Are you implying that I'm a Muay Thai and/or Judo guy? I'm not... I train in Yiliquan and Modern Army Combatives (we don't wear pads there, either, and often train outside in the grass, on the dirt, etc., as opposed to in the gym on mats), and I've trained in karate, Modern Arnis, and other arts in the past.

Bottom line - it's training to learn to fight. There are inherent risks that should be mitigated somehow (be it mats, pads, or just plain old-fashioned proper training), but they can't and won't be avoided entirely. Those wishing to see arts trained in a 100% incident free environment are deluded, as zero-tolerance environments often create potentially injurious situations in their quest for zero-tolerance... :rolleyes:

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 06:24 PM

That'd be pretty much all of them, don't you think? How do you know if your training partner, sweating and breathing all over you, isn't infected with something?

That's why I severely limit my training partners.

There may be some, but I think saying "most" is over-generalization... I saw an RBWI class years ago where the instructor threw the student, who landed poorly and quite likely broke a toe as a result, and the instructor didn't give a second's attention to it... He walked away, and another senior student berated the injured student for not jumping up promptly to train.

I can't name one place that I know of that uses non-porous mats, cleans the mats after every class, has an instructor that knows CPR and basic first aid, and makes students wear protective gear for every physical contact.

I can't name a single place.

However, though I realize the development of fighting spirit, the ability to continue on through pain and injury, is a vital component of martial training, that was a poor showing by the instructor... I'd say a better showing would be for the instructor to tape the toe (if he knew how), and then berate the student if he didn't at least make an attempt to continue training (whether he actually succeeded or not is something else entirely...)

Yeah, broken toes are part and parcel of training. It would be hard to avoid broken toes.

I'd counter that there are far, far fewer people engaged in "street" encounters than KOMO4 or any of the other reactionary news stations here locally would have us believe... Martial training, by its very core nature, is violent and dangerous. It is simply an integral part of training. If your training doesn't risk your injury, then it's nowhere remotely close to "realistic," is it? You wouldn't be learning to defend against a violent attacker, but a safe, non-threatening classmate, and that's something entirely different, don't you think?

Right, there are very few people who get assaulted on the street. As for learning aggression, that's not what I'm really talking about here.

Perhaps... Then again, what are your CPR and medical certifications? Do you hold yourself to the same standards of training that you expect from these schools? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just asking... I'm an EMT-B, I'm BLS-Healthcare and Instructor certified, and I'm also a trained massage therapist (for what that's worth), my senior instructor is an RN and a Nurse Anesthetist, and, as stated before, at least 3 of our students are surgical techs, and another is a Nurse Anesthetist as well...

That's good for you. I'm not an instructor. I've had basic CPR training several times, and got my merit badges in the boy scouts. LOL. But I'm not an RN or anything.

Though, as a counter-point, in 21 years of training I've seen or otherwise directly experienced no more than a half-dozen nosebleeds, cut fingers (during weapons work), smashed fingers (again, weapons), and only 2 or 3 KOs. That's pretty safe, considering the amount of contact we use...

In 20 some years I've come across more broken, smashed fingers or toes than I can keep track of, 2 broken arms, several dislocations, a few knockouts, several people hitting themselves in the eyes with sticks or getting jabbed in the eye, a detached retina, and plenty of blood everywhere not always cleaned up, which I didn't think was a problem until somebody educated me on hep-C.

There's the trick of enforcing such standards... Given that our local government up here in WA can't handle oh-so-many things as it is (the recent windstorm is one that springs to mind, as is the "crippling" effects of only an inch or two of snow), I can't see how it can spare the money nor manpower to police the mostly slap-and-tickle schools in the greater Puget Sound area...

Yeah, how lame is that. I can't believe how slow they were getting electricity restored. There are still a ton of places they haven't even gotten to yet. I think the only reason we got power back after 24 hours is we're on the same line as a police station and city offices.

I was joking to somebody that if they fixed the electricity as fast as they fixed the roads, it wouldn't all be up for a week. And about 5 minutes later on the radio they said to expect not everybody would be back up for a week.

A lot of that though is due to the Seattle work ethic. 10% work. 20% coffee breaks, 30% meetings and 40% chatting.

SevenStar

12-19-2006, 06:29 PM

I'd counter that there are far, far fewer people engaged in "street" encounters than KOMO4 or any of the other reactionary news stations here locally would have us believe... Martial training, by its very core nature, is violent and dangerous. It is simply an integral part of training. If your training doesn't risk your injury, then it's nowhere remotely close to "realistic," is it? You wouldn't be learning to defend against a violent attacker, but a safe, non-threatening classmate, and that's something entirely different, don't you think?

at your school, what do you do that supposedly makes it any more or less realistic?

Perhaps... Then again, what are your CPR and medical certifications? Do you hold yourself to the same standards of training that you expect from these schools?

I know you weren't talking to me, but I am indeed cpr certified. It's not required where I teach muay thai, but I feel it would be helpful all the same. The gym I lift at wants me to start teaching there, and they DO require a cert.

Though, as a counter-point, in 21 years of training I've seen or otherwise directly experienced no more than a half-dozen nosebleeds, cut fingers (during weapons work), smashed fingers (again, weapons), and only 2 or 3 KOs. That's pretty safe, considering the amount of contact we use...

in judo and bjj, I've seen broken collarbones, torn ligaments, unconsciousness, severe bruises, countless broken toes, broken ribs... Where is the difference in our levels of contact? In muay thai, I've seen broken ribs, nosebleeds, muscle strains, sprains and KOs. I've seen some badly jammed fingers in all three.

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 06:33 PM

SevenStar

12-19-2006, 06:41 PM

Granted... But the judo governing bodies are organizations sanctioning training for a competitive arena. You can certainly train judo while outside the auspices of such an organization. The comment from lunghushan was that "most schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students," which my experience shows to not only be the case, but rather the complete opposite. The schools in my area (down by Fort Lewis, where lunghushan is in Seattle) are almost overly concerned with the potential for injury, to the degree that most of them hardly resemble fighting arts at all! :D All the schools that deal with throws/falls/ukemi/etc. have more than adequate mats/protective flooring, and the schools that actually make contact (there aren't many from what I've seen) have fully adequate provision for pads/gloves/etc.

Gotcha.

As for lunghushan's concerns about pathogenic contamination, it's a valid concern, but one that has to be dealt with individually. Even mats that are scrubbed/mopped with bleach will still manage to transmit ringworm. It happens. If a person doesn't want the risk, then they can choose not to participate in that particular art/style/sport.

that's true. We scrub and mop after every class, but ringworm still occurs.

The school is going to expect the students to bring mats along with? What about kick shields? Sure, they can buy their own marshmallow helmets, mittens, and footies, but following lunghushan's outline, the school should pad every firm surface... ;) That's gonna cost moneys. :D Seriously, though, he said that instructors should "protect their students." I guess that means something different to different people.

I can see your point there. There are cheaper options, though. Before we got tatamis, we had some really nice wrestling mats that were donated from a local high school, as they were about in the process of getting new mats. My first judo club also trained on donated wrestling mats.

In our school, we don't wear headgear, gloves, booties, mouthpieces or cups. You learn to defend yourself, or you get hit. It's good incentive to get the hell out of the way.

sure it is. It's also a good way to KO someone if they don't move. I have broken someone's ribs from a kick while wearing shin pads. without one, it may have been worse. nosebleeds and such happen while wearing gloves and headgear. When you spar a lot and with decent level of contact (and you guys may - I don't know) you are increasing your chance for injury by sparring with no gear. When I was training longfist, we were sparring with no gear and I broke a guy's nose with a roundhouse. he was a higher rank than me, but when you spar, things like that happen. even though he was higher ranked, he couldn't evade ALL the time.

Are you implying that I'm a Muay Thai and/or Judo guy? I'm not...

Nah, I was referring to me. it was ironic that I was replying.

Bottom line - it's training to learn to fight. There are inherent risks that should be mitigated somehow (be it mats, pads, or just plain old-fashioned proper training), but they can't and won't be avoided entirely. Those wishing to see arts trained in a 100% incident free environment are deluded, as zero-tolerance environments often create potentially injurious situations in their quest for zero-tolerance... :rolleyes:

no disagreement there.

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 06:56 PM

That's why I severely limit my training partners.

Maybe I'm insufficiently concerned, but I'd rather have lots of training partners than live in fear of cross-contamination. There are so many potential vectors for the spread of infectious disease that there's almost no possible way to avoid them all... Something's going to get you eventually... ;)

I can't name one place that I know of that uses non-porous mats, cleans the mats after every class, has an instructor that knows CPR and basic first aid, and makes students wear protective gear for every physical contact.

"Every physical contact?" Please elaborate... It'd be darn hard to train while wearing a body condom or HAZMAT suit... :D

Yeah, broken toes are part and parcel of training. It would be hard to avoid broken toes.

I'm either misinterpreting sarcasm, or you misunderstood my comment. I meant to say that the broken toes were avoidable, and the instructor showed far less than adequate concern. Of course, knuckle-head was the one that executed a ****-poor fall (that's also the instructor's fault, as their skills are mediocre at best), so he actually hurt himself if you choose to look at it that way...

Right, there are very few people who get assaulted on the street. As for learning aggression, that's not what I'm really talking about here.

I getcha...

That's good for you. I'm not an instructor. I've had basic CPR training several times, and got my merit badges in the boy scouts. LOL. But I'm not an RN or anything.

We're required in our style to learn first aid for a number of conditions, CPR, and at higher levels we are required to document formal training in one of a number of healthcare modalities, both "traditional" and/or "modern." The point is, you need to balance "hurt" with "heal." We recognize that, and incorporate it into the doctrinal fiber of our training.

In 20 some years I've come across more broken, smashed fingers or toes than I can keep track of, 2 broken arms, several dislocations, a few knockouts, several people hitting themselves in the eyes with sticks or getting jabbed in the eye, a dislocated retina, and plenty of blood everywhere not always cleaned up, which I didn't think was a problem until somebody educated me on hep-C.

You've either had some killer training, or you've been playing with some folks who need adult supervision! :D :D :D Even when I did Arnis I only suffered a few minor "self-inflicted" stick hickeys and one or two fingers that got in the way of an errant stick.

Yeah, how lame is that. I can't believe how slow they were getting electricity restored. There are still a ton of places they haven't even gotten to yet. I think the only reason we got power back after 24 hours is we're on the same line as a police station and city offices.

I was joking to somebody that if they fixed the electricity as fast as they fixed the roads, it wouldn't all be up for a week. And about 5 minutes later on the radio they said to expect not everybody would be back up for a week.

A lot of that though is due to the Seattle work ethic. 10% work. 20% coffee breaks, 30% meetings and 40% chatting.

I love Washington, and I plan on retiring here after I get out of the Army (5 more years!), however it seems that the "leadership" of WA (if you can call it that) would like to spend more time talking about how jacked up things are than actually doing anything about it. The news stations would have you believe that there are murderers around every corner and pedophiles packing every school playground. My favorite was how KOMO4 played up the DC Sniper by leading every news segment about his "expert marksmanship" (which is complete BS, as the longest shot he took was well under 200 meters, which is only the "50 yard line" for our rifle qualification and nowhere near the 400 meter mark real snipers fire at regularly...) with his supposed connection to the Army via his stint at Fort Lewis over a decade earlier...

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 07:10 PM

at your school, what do you do that supposedly makes it any more or less realistic?

Y'know, to be perfectly honest, I don't know how I could honestly answer that... Once upon a time, as a young student, I probably could have. Now, with my exposure to the "realtime" training of grappling (via judo and MACP), I think the only "more realism" bit we bring to the party is the fact that when we "spar" (I hate that word), you're as likely to get smacked or punched in the head, as you as to have your legs swept out from under you, as you are to have chin na done fast and hard enough to send you flying into a good face plant. We don't "spar" in the sense that we circle each other, throwing tons of techniques; we face off, and one person attempts to take advantage of a perceived opening, and then either dusts the other guy or gets dusted for his troubles.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I am indeed cpr certified. It's not required where I teach muay thai, but I feel it would be helpful all the same. The gym I lift at wants me to start teaching there, and they DO require a cert.

When I taught at my teacher's school, there was no issue as he was always present and new far more about first aid and TCM than I would have had exposure to at the time. When I taught at another school (a TKD place that wanted us to offer training with them), I was already Red Cross CPR certified due to my hospital job. Later, I was in the Army and taught at the post gym. Again, already CPR certified, so not an issue (in fact, it was a deciding factor in their accepting the contract). When I taught at a civilian health club, they wanted no end of personal liability insurance, first aid/CPR training, liability waivers, etc. So I've dealt with the whole gamut. I've pursued "medical" training for my own reasons, though, moreso than a feeling of responsibility (though if I'm teaching I do feel responsible for the welfare of my students).

in judo and bjj, I've seen broken collarbones, torn ligaments, unconsciousness, severe bruises, countless broken toes, broken ribs... Where is the difference in our levels of contact? In muay thai, I've seen broken ribs, nosebleeds, muscle strains, sprains and KOs. I've seen some badly jammed fingers in all three.

We've had "water knuckles" from makiwara training, the occasional sprain due to hyperextension (and occasionally a subsequent fall, which is always entertaining :D ), bruises from strikes (especially the "vital point" striking training and training with someone going through Iron Palm training), etc. We're not injury free by any means, but I can't really recall anything that was terribly, terribly, terrible either.

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 07:11 PM

Maybe I'm insufficiently concerned, but I'd rather have lots of training partners than live in fear of cross-contamination. There are so many potential vectors for the spread of infectious disease that there's almost no possible way to avoid them all... Something's going to get you eventually... ;)

Yeah, well, honestly I don't like a ton of training partners. It's annoying dealing with new training partners anyway because they all want to do things their way.

It's annoying, but honestly I don't really want to do things their way either, so we're kindof at a stalemate. :)

I used to do a lot more, but I don't anymore. Getting older, I guess.

"Every physical contact?" Please elaborate... It'd be darn hard to train while wearing a body condom or HAZMAT suit... :D

Well, honestly after all the outbreaks of ringworm, staph and herpes, herpes which doesn't ever go away and staph which can kill you, I think that people should wear gloves and at least a rash guard whenever they do partner practice. That's just my opinion.

I'm either misinterpreting sarcasm, or you misunderstood my comment. I meant to say that the broken toes were avoidable, and the instructor showed far less than adequate concern. Of course, knuckle-head was the one that executed a ****-poor fall (that's also the instructor's fault, as their skills are mediocre at best), so he actually hurt himself if you choose to look at it that way...

Yeah, I guess I'd be more concerned with both if I hadn't have broken my own toes so many times in MA practice. The thing that ticked me off is that my health plan doctor wouldn't even set the fricking toe, saying, "Toes don't need to be set" the first time with one of them, so it never set straight so it's caused a lot of problems.

But yeah, they should be more careful, and break a toe you should take care of it.

We're required in our style to learn first aid for a number of conditions, CPR, and at higher levels we are required to document formal training in one of a number of healthcare modalities, both "traditional" and/or "modern." The point is, you need to balance "hurt" with "heal." We recognize that, and incorporate it into the doctrinal fiber of our training.

Yeah, I'm not so much into the healing aspects. But basic health training in scouts and explorers covered first aid, tournaquets, splints, direct pressure, CPR and all of that, so I haven't really ever had much of a problem.

You've either had some killer training, or you've been playing with some folks who need adult supervision! :D :D :D Even when I did Arnis I only suffered a few minor "self-inflicted" stick hickeys and one or two fingers that got in the way of an errant stick.

What can I say. In my youth, I used to always look for the hardest core place I could find. I quit the place with the sticks in the eyes though after that because they were out of control. But the broken arms were just from Judo. Twice it happened, at different schools, because the person resisted the throw, and the person underneath got squirrelly. #1 rule of Judo IMHO is once they have you (once you've lost it), DON'T RESIST.

I love Washington, and I plan on retiring here after I get out of the Army (5 more years!), however it seems that the "leadership" of WA (if you can call it that) would like to spend more time talking about how jacked up things are than actually doing anything about it. The news stations would have you believe that there are murderers around every corner and pedophiles packing every school playground. My favorite was how KOMO4 played up the DC Sniper by leading every news segment about his "expert marksmanship" (which is complete BS, as the longest shot he took was well under 200 meters, which is only the "50 yard line" for our rifle qualification and nowhere near the 400 meter mark real snipers fire at regularly...) with his supposed connection to the Army via his stint at Fort Lewis over a decade earlier...

Well, he's an expert marksman, I guess, compared to the average citizen. But those real snipers are pretty scary.

But yeah, they do spend a lot of time around here in political correctness and freaking out, and analysis paralysis. They can never seem to get any major project underway like the viaduct or whatever because they're always talking about it endlessly.

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 07:18 PM

Well, he's an expert marksman, I guess, compared to the average citizen. But those real snipers are pretty scary.

Yeah, but to us military folks were pretty peeved about the whole "former Fort Lewis expert marksman So-and-So..." Two-hundred yard shots are cake! It's quite literally one of the two easiest shots on the entire range! Talk to me about "expert" when you're pegging 300 meter targets (which look all of about an 1/8 of an inch tall from your firing position over open sights) with regularity, and even then you are a far cry from "sniper" level... :rolleyes:

But yeah, they do spend a lot of time around here in political correctness and freaking out, and analysis paralysis. They can never seem to get any major project underway like the viaduct or whatever because they're always talking about it endlessly.

I don't want this to imply my personal politics (being a Soldier, I don't really get much say), but Democrats would rather do nothing than something, and Republicans would rather do something than nothing (regardless of the appropriateness of what they did in the first place...).

Yao Sing

12-19-2006, 07:39 PM

"In our school, we don't wear headgear, gloves, booties, mouthpieces or cups. You learn to defend yourself, or you get hit. It's good incentive to get the hell out of the way."

My feelings also although we seem to be in the minority. Nothing teaches the importance of blocking like a shot in the giblets.

Personally I think all the padding makes you careless. But I would argue for a mouthpiece since you will get hit there.

I think the best would be one padded the other not so one could work on full contact aggression while requiring serious concern for the reality of getting hit. Then switch.

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 07:51 PM

My feelings also although we seem to be in the minority. Nothing teaches the importance of blocking like a shot in the giblets.

I guess my take on things is that "back in the old days" there weren't advanced plastics, space-age polymers, etc., to make protective gear out of. There was "armored" and "unarmored." Somehow, the old guys managed to survive training just fine...

Just because technology advances and provides neat new toys, that doesn't mean training methodology has to change along with it. Sure, sure, don't keep doing things the old way if there's a new, more efficient way, but I don't see that vinyl-dipped foam padding is necessarily such a great addition that I should start using it... Sure, you can get rocked, but it's not the same kind of pain, not the same kind of "motivation" to make the other guy miss...

Personally I think all the padding makes you careless. But I would argue for a mouthpiece since you will get hit there.

I've learned to at least pay attention to keeping my mouth shut... I've bit my tongue and had my teeth smacked shut enough times to realize that a clenched jaw is better than a slack one...

SPJ

12-19-2006, 07:57 PM

What are your thoughts on the need (or not) for Martial Arts Accreditation for martial arts instructors and the need for Governing Bodies?

each style/school may form a loose association with memberships extending to teachers, students and hobbyist or supporting members etc.

each style may form a committe from substyles or regions, countries etc.

the committee will form forums to "unify" some common training methods, some common "forms" or technique sets, variants and derivative are allowed in each school.

from there; "common" "requirements" set for advancements. Duan or belt systems or just beginner, intermediate, and advanced curricullum and training methods etc.

again variants from the common "bases" are allowed.

thesis, research work on theory (principles) and practice (moves/techniques, biophysics or body mechanics etc) are required for the advance levels.

peer or committee reviews and accreditation to the "original" author etc.

however, this may work against the free flow and dynamics of a style by "systemizing" or dragonian the style.

--

you can't have the candy and eat it, too.

--

:eek: :cool:

Fuzzly

12-19-2006, 07:57 PM

I think padding is important on different levels to different people. I am kinda fat (one of the reasons I've gotten into MA, give me credit for improving myself, lol), and to be honest most chest protectors are way too small and uncomfortable. I could buy my own, but that would take money I don't have. I would rather have some bruises and the air knocke out of me than be chaffing.

But I'm a college student, I am OK with feeling beat-up the next morning. But what about the businessman who is doing this as a hobby? I'm sure the day that he spars he'll want a chest protector or shin guards, because his non-ma life is more effected.

I do think basic CPR is a skill everyone should have, no matter what.

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 08:11 PM

But what about the businessman who is doing this as a hobby? I'm sure the day that he spars he'll want a chest protector or shin guards, because his non-ma life is more effected.

Maybe I'm a purist, but...

If you want to be a motocross racer, do you get yourself a suit that resists dirt and mud, and a bike that is padded, with extra shock absorbing materials, etc.? That wouldn't really be motocross, would it?

If you want to be a rock climber, do you limit yourself solely to climbing indoor rock walls made of high-impact plastic and resin, complete with industrial strength, professionally installed pitons and nice, thick pads to fall onto should you lose your grip? That wouldn't really be rock climbing, would it?

If you want to be a weigh-lifter, do you only ever lift weights that are comfortable and require no strain, following a program that never really leaves you limping and tender to the touch the following day? That wouldn't really be weight-lifting, would it?

If you want to be a martial artist, and you limit your training only to that which will never endanger you, never expose you to actual contact with a partner (be it percussively during striking training, or body-to-body during grappling training), and never require you to "hit or miss" with your technique, that isn't really martial arts training, is it?

If the business man wants to wear fancy PJs, shout "haiiiii-YA" over and over again, while breaking a single inch of dry pine, then he's not really doing martial arts. If he gets into a school that leaves him sore the following day, then at least he knows he did something worthwhile the evening prior...

SevenStar

12-19-2006, 08:28 PM

My feelings also although we seem to be in the minority. Nothing teaches the importance of blocking like a shot in the giblets.

Personally I think all the padding makes you careless. But I would argue for a mouthpiece since you will get hit there.

I understand your take, but whenever I hear people say it, I have to question what they are calling hard contact. If I can KO a person with gloves and headgear on, I could do worse to them with no gear at all. When you have hundreds to thousands of hard strikes thrown at you nightly, the chances of you getting hit are greater and greater. If we wore no pads, we would have no training partners.

SevenStar

12-19-2006, 08:32 PM

I guess my take on things is that "back in the old days" there weren't advanced plastics, space-age polymers, etc., to make protective gear out of. There was "armored" and "unarmored." Somehow, the old guys managed to survive training just fine...

it's also no secret that a lot of schools didn't spar.

Just because technology advances and provides neat new toys, that doesn't mean training methodology has to change along with it. Sure, sure, don't keep doing things the old way if there's a new, more efficient way, but I don't see that vinyl-dipped foam padding is necessarily such a great addition that I should start using it... Sure, you can get rocked, but it's not the same kind of pain, not the same kind of "motivation" to make the other guy miss...

the dipped point gear sucks. However, that pain is sufficient motivation, as there is still the risk of getting KOed.

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 08:34 PM

I understand your take, but whenever I hear people say it, I have to question what they are calling hard contact. If I can KO a person with gloves and headgear on, I could do worse to them with no gear at all. When you have hundreds to thousands of hard strikes thrown at you nightly, the chances of you getting hit are greater and greater. If we wore no pads, we would have no training partners.

I'll admit we don't punch each other straight in the teeth often; we usually make head contact with slaps and only the occasional punch, usually to the back or side of the head (not face).

We do a fair amount of 70% power body contact (+/-), and it can result in the "hit-ee" at least taking a knee, if not outright resting for a few minutes to recover. We kick pretty hard to the outside of the thighs, the inside of the thighs, and about 50 - 70% power to the body.

I don't say, nor have I ever said, this is necessarily the same as all-out, full-on, 1000 punch berserker attacks. I've done full contact work with pads, and I admit that having headgear is handy. I'll also say, though, that after the first dozen hits or so, you gain confidence that the hits aren't going to take you out, whereas minus the helmet you're going to go take a seat for more than a couple minutes... Again, the motivation factor is higher without the gear.

But you guys know that. I'm not talking to dummies here, I know that. Seems that we're all heading in about the same direction, more or less, except for the fear of disease vector on lunghushan's part... ;)

Fuzzly

12-19-2006, 08:39 PM

Maybe I'm a purist, but...

If you want to be a motocross racer, do you get yourself a suit that resists dirt and mud, and a bike that is padded, with extra shock absorbing materials, etc.? That wouldn't really be motocross, would it?

If you want to be a rock climber, do you limit yourself solely to climbing indoor rock walls made of high-impact plastic and resin, complete with industrial strength, professionally installed pitons and nice, thick pads to fall onto should you lose your grip? That wouldn't really be rock climbing, would it?

If you want to be a weigh-lifter, do you only ever lift weights that are comfortable and require no strain, following a program that never really leaves you limping and tender to the touch the following day? That wouldn't really be weight-lifting, would it?

If you want to be a martial artist, and you limit your training only to that which will never endanger you, never expose you to actual contact with a partner (be it percussively during striking training, or body-to-body during grappling training), and never require you to "hit or miss" with your technique, that isn't really martial arts training, is it?

If the business man wants to wear fancy PJs, shout "haiiiii-YA" over and over again, while breaking a single inch of dry pine, then he's not really doing martial arts. If he gets into a school that leaves him sore the following day, then at least he knows he did something worthwhile the evening prior...

There are varying levels os soreness and injury. I agree with your statements, but only if the person is doing those activities as a career. Someone people have hobbies, and hobbies don't require you go "all-out". Yes, most everyone is going to be sore after they train hard, but the mother of 3 lady who trains 3-4 hours a week dosn't need to leave class beat up or so sore she can't move the next day. People have varying levels of dedication, and I don't see it as a bad thing.

I don't see the need to make the guy who is working 40+ hours a week feel like crap. If he wants the extra protection, give it to him.

I do see where you are coming from, and maybe you are a bit of a purist. =)

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 08:41 PM

it's also no secret that a lot of schools didn't spar.

Very, very true. Which would lead to it's own tangential thread of "how did the "old masters" get so allegedly deadly without sparring?" But that's another debate entirely...

If I'm doing stick work, then I want headgear. Catching a stick upside the noggin is no pleasure cruise. For that matter, I want gloves, too. I type for a living, and I'm not keen on having pain every instant of the day. That having been said, when I trained with a friend of mine from Japan while I was in Korea, he brought gloves and headgear, and we went full on for about 45 minutes... The headgear bought me a false sense of security, as I knew the punches I was sucking up weren't going to hurt me, and my timing was jacked because of the weight and size of the glove... Granted, if I trained with them more often, I'd be able to compensate. Fine. But what would that do to my bareknuckle technique? How would it reverse-affect my timing?

the dipped point gear sucks. However, that pain is sufficient motivation, as there is still the risk of getting KOed.

Amen.

When I went through Level 1 Combatives certification, we had to do the "Clinch Drill," which basically consists of the biggest guys in the battalion putting on 16 oz gloves and trying to take your head off your shoulders. You get a mouthpiece and a vinyl-dipped helmet, and that's it. The drill ends when you achieve one of 3 allowed clinch positions, all of which pretty much require you to eat no less than a dozen headshots on the way in. The point of the drill isn't the clinch; it's that you can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'." Still had an ache in my brain pan even with the headgear... :D

YiLiQuan1

12-19-2006, 08:53 PM

There are varying levels os soreness and injury. I agree with your statements, but only if the person is doing those activities as a career.

Why does it have to be a career? The difference isn't in how they do the activity, but rather the amount of time and effort they put into getting good at it...

I can ride a motocross bike/motorcycle once a month on a weekend. Am I a motocross cyclist or not? Well, as long as I'm doing it like "the pros," then I am, but it's just a hobby. If I'm half-assing the endeavor, then I'm just a poseur on a motocross bike.

I can rock-climb once a month on a weekend. Am I a rock-climber or not? Well, as long as I do it "right," then I am, but it's just a hobby. If I'm wearing the most expensive, over the top gear, but climbing no higher than 6 feet off the ground, and even then only with the most advanced pulley system preventing me from coming anywhere near bumping my tender bottom on the mats, then I'm just a poseur with expensive toys.

I can weight-lift once a month on a weekend. Am I a weight-lifter or not? Well, as long as I make an attempt at proper form, proper technique, etc., then I am, but it's just a hobby (and certainly will go absolutely nowhere). If I'm wearing big, baggy pants, a cut-off sleeveless t-shirt, expensive (though barely used) weight gloves, walking around the gym drinking my designer whey shake while barely breaking a sweat lifting only the lightest weights (and then only for a scant few reps), then I'm just a joke who ought to invest in another hobby...

And it's exactly the same with martial arts.

Someone people have hobbies, and hobbies don't require you go "all-out". Yes, most everyone is going to be sore after they train hard, but the mother of 3 lady who trains 3-4 hours a week dosn't need to leave class beat up or so sore she can't move the next day. People have varying levels of dedication, and I don't see it as a bad thing.

Then they're not doing martial arts. They're doing fancy aerobic dance minus the cool, toe-tapping tunes. They're also kidding themselves if they think they're developing anything other than their ego and fitness. If they think they can fend off an attacker intent on taking their money (at least) or their life (at most), then after they've died and passed on to the afterlife, they can examine in retrospect the validity of the work they did...

I don't see the need to make the guy who is working 40+ hours a week feel like crap. If he wants the extra protection, give it to him.

But the point is "what does he/she think he/she is actually doing?" If they think they're training to fight, and they wear layer upon layer of pads while never making anything amounting to real contact (or for that matter, never learning what receiving real contact feels like), then the teacher is actually doing a severe disservice to the student by "protecting" him or her...

It's important to hit things full bore. It's also important to inure yourself to a certain degree of pain, otherwise that first, mind-numbingly painful hit is going to stun you so badly that no matter the number of padded hours of sparring you clocked in, you're still going to end up hamburger...

The more we sweat in peace the less we bleed in war. Or something like that... But remember, I'm a Soldier, so my current motivations for training are a little different than your everyday Joe.

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 09:09 PM

Yeah, but to us military folks were pretty peeved about the whole "former Fort Lewis expert marksman So-and-So..." Two-hundred yard shots are cake! It's quite literally one of the two easiest shots on the entire range! Talk to me about "expert" when you're pegging 300 meter targets (which look all of about an 1/8 of an inch tall from your firing position over open sights) with regularity, and even then you are a far cry from "sniper" level... :rolleyes:

I don't want this to imply my personal politics (being a Soldier, I don't really get much say), but Democrats would rather do nothing than something, and Republicans would rather do something than nothing (regardless of the appropriateness of what they did in the first place...).

Yeah, some of those shots that snipers make are pretty amazing. Somebody was telling me hitting a quarter from 500 yards was about average.

I'm not for either party. IMHO it's a false dichotomy designed for those who can't reason. They're both run by big business. But try to talk sense into anybody about that, it's nothing doing.

I will say that given the past 20 years or so of history, I think we need a new party. One where we pay our bills, support our citizens, and don't sell out to big business. But instead we like focusing on abortion or guns.

Fuzzly

12-19-2006, 09:52 PM

I see what you are saying Yili, but I don't agree. Just because they wear pads dosn't mean they aren't doing martial arts. The more pads you have, the less injuries you take, the longer you can train.

Also, it's easier to use "full power" for people if their opponent is wearing pads, at least at first.

I think our disagreement comes from us disagreeing whether or not people can "do" martial arts if they are not %100 committed.

lunghushan

12-19-2006, 10:13 PM

Well, anyways, it is possible that standards will be forced upon the martial arts community by way of lawsuits.

Already herpes gladitorum outbreaks are on the rise, they're checking students at BJJ tourneys for ringworm and herpes outbreaks, they're testing MMA fighters for hep-C, HIV, etc.

So all it will probably take will be a couple of high profile cases, and the standards will be enforced.

Already a lot of teachers are modifying their training regimes at the request of insurance carriers, so we will likely see some more standards in the future.

SevenStar

12-19-2006, 10:32 PM

If you want to be a weigh-lifter, do you only ever lift weights that are comfortable and require no strain, following a program that never really leaves you limping and tender to the touch the following day? That wouldn't really be weight-lifting, would it?

being nitpicky here, but yes, it would be. Proper strength training does not have to leave you sore. In fact, it's rare that I'm sore, but you can check my blog on the fitness forum to see what all I do. Certain types of training will indeed lead to some soreness, though not all of it has to.

If the business man wants to wear fancy PJs, shout "haiiiii-YA" over and over again, while breaking a single inch of dry pine, then he's not really doing martial arts. If he gets into a school that leaves him sore the following day, then at least he knows he did something worthwhile the evening prior...

that's life, nonetheless. A guy working in the marketing department for a major IT company will have several meetings weekly, if not daily with upper management. Visible bruises would be frowned upon and can endanger his job.

Yao Sing

12-20-2006, 07:39 AM

I understand your take, but whenever I hear people say it, I have to question what they are calling hard contact. If I can KO a person with gloves and headgear on, I could do worse to them with no gear at all.

You're looking at it from an aggressor viewpoint. The usual argument for protective gear is so you can hit without having to pull punches. That's true and it benefits the aggressor.

It's detrimental from a defensive POV because it gives a false sense of security. You're more likely to shrug off a shot that would have floored you without the gear.

It's similar to the problem with point fighting where the other guy doesn't 'respect' your technique (acknowledges a light tap to the head COULD be a knockout punch).

I'm a yin/yang kind of guy, I believe too much yang (aggressive) is just as bad as too much yin (passive).

I suggested alternating the padding so you get to both hit hard and learn to deal with the reality of getting hit.

Everyone seems to be concerned with the guy that spars light contact in class and doesn't learn to go full out and gets beat in the street because he can't up his game.

What about the guy that's used to the padding and gets into a fight and finds out he can't take a kick to the ribs like he does in class?

Fighting with gear all the time is just as bad as fighting without gear all the time. Spar without a cup and you WILL protect your groin.

SevenStar

12-20-2006, 03:13 PM

You're looking at it from an aggressor viewpoint. The usual argument for protective gear is so you can hit without having to pull punches. That's true and it benefits the aggressor. It's detrimental from a defensive POV because it gives a false sense of security. You're more likely to shrug off a shot that would have floored you without the gear.

I'm looking from the standpoint of both. I've been KOed with gloves on. It really doesn't feel any better. Wearing pads doesn't give me a false sense of security. I still make every attempt not to get hit, unless I am doing something that may require me to get hit in some form or fashion. However, I've done that with no pads as well.

It's similar to the problem with point fighting where the other guy doesn't 'respect' your technique (acknowledges a light tap to the head COULD be a knockout punch).

not really. We spar hard enough that a hard punch will rock your bell. you have to respect it. you only run the possibility you mentioned while sparring lightly. We were sparring with pads when I broke the guys ribs I mentioned earlier.

I'm a yin/yang kind of guy, I believe too much yang (aggressive) is just as bad as too much yin (passive).

no disagreement there.

What about the guy that's used to the padding and gets into a fight and finds out he can't take a kick to the ribs like he does in class?

I can guarantee you, that's not an issue if you are sparring hard contact. the padding doesn't remove as much pain as you think.

Fighting with gear all the time is just as bad as fighting without gear all the time. Spar without a cup and you WILL protect your groin.

I would disagree there as well, of for nothing else than the fact that people tend to hit even harder with gloves on, as they think the impact is lessened by the big gloves. As I stated before, in a tag game, it's difficult to respect the strike, as you don't really feel it. If you are sparring hard contact, that is not an issue. you WILL feel it.

Fuzzly

12-20-2006, 06:13 PM

I think the amount of protection pads offer can be party based on your opponent's skill level. With beginners, I can have a chest protector on and take the shots easy, but against some of my kung-fu brother, I might as well not even have one on, for all the good it seems to do me.

Galadriel

12-21-2006, 07:54 AM

What are your thoughts on the need (or not) for Martial Arts Accreditation for martial arts instructors and the need for Governing Bodies?

I belong to the Martial Arts Industry Association MAIA (http://www.maia.com.au/) and the International Martial Arts Alliance IMA (http://www.martialartalliance.com/). These organisations both offer accreditation for the martial artist.

Your thoughts?

Here in Ireland, they recently started a coaching course which is government accredited and designed by "NCTC - National Coaching Training Centre" in Limerick and IMAC (Irish Martial Arts Comission)

They designed this coaching course for various sports (football, hurling, equestrian, etc..) and recently started teaching the Level 1 course for Martial Arts. Its four days of teaching with all MA's mixed up, going over topics like

safety
design of class
teaching children
sports psychology
stretching/flexibilty/strength
record keeping
etc...
and then a final modul that is art specifc, so that is broken down in Kung Fu, Kickboxing, Tai Chi, Karate, etc...
On top of that you need a First Aid certificate, attend a "Code of Ethics" course and attend a class of a different MA and write up on it.

And at the end of that, you get your Level 1 certificate, which would be assistant coach.
They are currently working on level 2 for MA, but that might take a while and somewhere in the future Level 3 MA.

Gagalina

Knifefighter

12-21-2006, 10:53 AM

If you want to be a motocross racer, do you get yourself a suit that resists dirt and mud, and a bike that is padded, with extra shock absorbing materials, etc.? That wouldn't really be motocross, would it?
I'm guessing you don't ride dirt bikes. Other than the padded bike, that is exactly what motocross racers do. You can drop major bank on all the protective equipment used in that sport.

If you want to be a rock climber, do you limit yourself solely to climbing indoor rock walls made of high-impact plastic and resin, complete with industrial strength, professionally installed pitons and nice, thick pads to fall onto should you lose your grip? That wouldn't really be rock climbing, would it?
If one is bouldering, he does, indeed, use pads if he is doing it with any seriousness. Otherwise, most climbers use ropes and very sophisticated safety systems.

If you want to be a weigh-lifter, do you only ever lift weights that are comfortable and require no strain, following a program that never really leaves you limping and tender to the touch the following day? That wouldn't really be weight-lifting, would it?
Competitive lifters have spotters and use racks. They lift on matted floors and use rubber encased plates so they can let the weights drop if they lose control and are at risk of injury.

Knifefighter

12-21-2006, 11:00 AM

"
My feelings also although we seem to be in the minority. Nothing teaches the importance of blocking like a shot in the giblets.
Personally I think all the padding makes you careless. But I would argue for a mouthpiece since you will get hit there.
I think the best would be one padded the other not so one could work on full contact aggression while requiring serious concern for the reality of getting hit. Then switch.
The paradox of protective gear is that it allows one to be able to take increasing levels of punishment because it allows your opponent to hit harder.

The fighter who trains with protective gear will almost always be able to take more punishment than the one who trains with no gear.

Knifefighter

12-21-2006, 11:05 AM

I guess my take on things is that "back in the old days" there weren't advanced plastics, space-age polymers, etc., to make protective gear out of. There was "armored" and "unarmored." Somehow, the old guys managed to survive training just fine....
"Back in the old days" they weren't sparring hard contact at all or very often... at least not if they weren't using any protective equipment.

Just because technology advances and provides neat new toys, that doesn't mean training methodology has to change along with it.
Sure it does, and smart people evolve training methodologies that take advantage of technology.

MMA gloves allow you to punch, as well as you grip with your hands. One can now practice both striking full contact and grappling at the same time.

Full face head gear, along with elbow pads means you can now work elbows at full force without cutting each other's faces up.

Mats allow you to do full amplitude takedowns and throws.

Groin protection lets you practice that type fighting.

Throw on some protective goggles and you can practice eye gouging.

Get custom top and bottom mouthpieces and you can even practice biting.