Low standing posts

[lloyd]

I know that there are styles where standing posts are practised very low. For instance a post where the hip and knee are on the same level and 80% of the weight is on this leg.
At first most people cannot even assume this position while keeping the back straight and head up. It is even harder to hold positions like this for long periods of time.
This kind of practise requires the bigger muscles to work with the stabilisers and I can't imagine that someone could stand in positions like this several times a day and for an hour or so.
Probably they start much higher, easier and never work up to an hour. Those who do have probably dedicated their whole live to it.

[honorisc]

I'm getting the image of what some might call a cat stance.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I invite you to check my web site and click the photos button and check out the mantis stance picture, Is that what your talking about? the hip and knee parallel, I can give you some great excersises to practice strenghtening your legs to do this

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Zhin]

I would say no, since having the back straight greatly increases the difficulty of holding a one legged stance with the thigh parallel to the ground. It's tied to the center of gravity.

[Fu-Pow]

What is the point of spending your whole life so that you can hold one stance for an hour? Not easy to do, but no point. There is no reason to be that rooted.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[lloyd]

Thanks for the link EARTH DRAGON!

Do you hold this low mantis stance like a standing post or do you just freeze in it for several breaths during form practise?
I know that holding postures for a bit longer during forms practise is quite common.

As for holding stances for an hour, I have never been able to do it so I can't tell the benefits.
I know that both internal and external arts used to have their students first holding stances for a very long time before they taught anything else.

[RAF]

http://www.greatlakeswushu.com/stance.html

Interesting Piece.

[Braden]

If you're going to copy the stances in the link Earth Dragon gave you, be sure NOT to copy the way that practitioner ignores knee-foot alignment. Not only will this prevent you from ever being properly rooted, it will also give you miserable arthritis when you get older.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I'll back Braden up on this.

If you are going to do a deep stance you must still obey the structural demands of the knees. If the long bones of the legs are out of alignment with the foot then the knee will have to bear weight (its a weight transference joint not a weight bearing joint) on one of the side ligaments (lateral or medial).

What is very common, sadly, is that people go below the strength range of the interior thigh muscles. Because these muscles are stressed beyond their range they shorten up, causing a closing at the hip and bringing the line of the long bones inside the angle of the foot. This forces the interior ligament of the knee to bear the body's weight. This always leads to degenerative knee problems. Its just physics.

Internal martial arts requires a kind of radical honesty with yourself and your progress. Cut the bull**** and don't lie to yourself. If you aren't strong when you go that low then you need to be stronger or be higher. To have a photo taken of yourself making a fundamental error of structure and exposing a basic weakness to the world while you act as if you have high skill is just hubris. Thumbs down to the Babu Tanglang club. :rolleyes:

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[lloyd]

I have seen that knee-foot alignment is a big problem when it comes to stretching stance (pu bu) and also horse stance training.

The problem isn't always lack of strength, but also the flexibility of the ankles. Low stances, esp. stretching stance, require great ankle flexibility, when done properly (the sole completly in contact with the ground and good knee-foot alignment).

I am still interested, does anyone practise or has heard of standing post done this low (maybe it is appropriate to call it lower basin practice?).

People do stances this low during forms and freeze in stances like this, but as I asked before, has anyone heard of STANDING POST WITH HIP AND KNEE PARALLEL.

[blacktaoist]

LLOYD if you practice this kind of stance training , both your tendons and ligaments should be completely streched and open. it is better to have higher stances, with the knees barely unlocked because it will be easier for the chi to sink down. In the lower stances, your chi will be blocked, if you have not developed the strength to be able to relax within a lower structure. Only gradually as you boild up strength, can a person go lower. The hip joints have to be completely relaxed also, in order for the chi (energy) to be able to sink down into the feet, only then can grounding and centering of a person torso occur.
LLoyd i have seen the pictrue of the guy doing snake creeps down on Earth dargon web stie, no disrepect to him, but a lot of the lower stances they knees are overextended this is not correct. WHY??
LLoyd when a person knees are over extended, a person hips will not be even. If one is higher then the other, it shows a curvature of the spine. This creates an inefficient structure whiich demands excessive energy form a person to maintain.
LLoyd stance training is just a form of the most basic body conditioning that many martial styles develop rooting and strength of the legs, in BAGUAZHANG we practice low stance to produce power, but it is necessity to have a substantially developed structure.(body mechanics)You have to practice high standing, like the Wu chi stance long enough to develop an integrated structure. IF you go practice lower basin(sitting stance) and your structure is broken or not complete at any point, the chi during training will become trapped in that area. Most breaks occur in the joint areas due to insufficient development of the tendon structure. The result will be chronic bursitis or artritis. No matter what stance you practice, just practice correct body mechanics-PEACE BLACKTAOIST

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What is very common, sadly, is that people go below the strength range of the interior thigh muscles. Because these muscles are stressed beyond their range they shorten up, causing a closing at the hip and bringing the line of the long bones inside the angle of the foot. This forces the interior ligament of the knee to bear the body's weight. This always leads to degenerative knee problems. Its just physics.
[/quote]

Great reply Kevin!!! So is it of benefit to keep the knees "open" so that you are resting bone on bone and not putting your weight on the ligament?

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[lloyd]

Thanks for the input Blacktaoist! I am theoretically aware of the conditions for internal practice. I have read about Bagua's internal practise requirements, which leave no room for guesswork. The descriptions are pretty detailed.

The requirements are the same, but...
What are the methodological differences between practising low or high?

[blacktaoist]

LLoyd, holding postures low or high is not the complete method,it is an exercise of mind and spirit. The most important aspect of stance training is not how low you can hold a posture, but obtaining the right presence of mind. What i learn from my sifu is, the mind must remain in the present moment. A person must have the mental preparation which precedes the actual stance practice is as important as the postures themselves, low or high!!
Merely holding a low posture means nothing if a person can;t integrate they mind , emotion, and spirit into the postures. This is the true purpose of stance practice, to take what is considered by most kung fu practitoners as a physical exercise(low stance)and transform the approach and the presence of mind so that it becomes an exercise of spirit.
But many kung fu practitioners cannot conceive of stance training beyond the plane of physical existence because they are too wrapped up in the physical action. They rarely concern themselves with the quality and feeling of the postures.

Kung fu practitioners today are paying so much attention to how low they can hold a posture or how good they postures look, and thus awareness and spirit are lost.
Before i learned BAGUAZHANG Static postures from my sifu, he said to me the purpose of stance training is to Establish a strong body structure and powerful fighting spirit. SO what i learned there is more to stance training then holding low or high postures. Stance trining is more an exercise of mind and spirit, with this in mind practice your high or low postures by first forming a foundation based on development of the spirit.
NO matter what fighting system you practice, if you don't have your mind and spirit in your actions be it, static postures,forms,chi-kung or even free fighting you have nothing!! peace blacktaoist.

[blacktaoist]

LLoyd, holding postures low or high is not the complete method,it is an exercise of mind and spirit. The most important aspect of stance training is not how low you can hold a posture, but obtaining the right presence of mind. What i learn from my sifu is, the mind must remain in the present moment. A person must have the mental preparation which precedes the actual stance practice is as important as the postures themselves, low or high!!
Merely holding a low posture means nothing if a person can;t integrate they mind , emotion, and spirit into the postures. This is the true purpose of stance practice, to take what is considered by most kung fu practitoners as a physical exercise(low stance)and transform the approach and the presence of mind so that it becomes an exercise of spirit.
But many kung fu practitioners cannot conceive of stance training beyond the plane of physical existence because they are too wrapped up in the physical action. They rarely concern themselves with the quality and feeling of the postures.

Kung fu practitioners today are paying so much attention to how low the