Sparring equipment.

[syn]

Not sure if this goes here or training but anyways.


Basically I'm planning on buying some sparring equipment with some money I hopefully receive this christmas. I was wondering, since you guys have a combined intellect with squishes mine, which sparring equipment do you enjoy most? Which kind is most compatible with Kung Fu (Boxing gloves aren't very much so)?

I'm kinda sorta looking for durability, padding but not pillows, and the most important thing would be that it allows kung fu to sort of keep it's edge by allowing movement of the fingers and so on and so forth. Also maybe some leg padding even though I haven't seen many of those would be good as well. :p

I'm off anways to search on google right now, but I would take your opinions over google.

[MasterKiller]

gloves:
http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf.aspx?ID=22292

shin pads:
http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22561

headgear:
http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22621

[SanHeChuan]

Agreed :cool:

Stay away from foam, go with a vinyl or leather products.

If your not doing full contact, or close to, you don't need shin pads. :rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

You should probably find out what they use at your school, and buy that.

Otherwise there could be some incompatibilities.

[SanHeChuan]

If your school only wants you to buy a certain kind of gear, it's because they want your $$$. No matter what they say or how reasonable it sounds, it's about $$$. :o

I use my own gear and I get funny looks and off hand remarks, but whatever.

They like to pull that you have to use our gear at tournaments, and then they promptly point you to the vendor table.

[lunghushan]

It's not all about money, it's also about level of contact and type of gear.

For example, if everybody spars with closed faced gloves, you probably want to buy closed faced gloves, etc.

If nobody wears sparring shoes, you probably don't want to either, etc. But it's your personal preference if you want to fit in or be a whacko.

[lkfmdc]

If your school only wants you to buy a certain kind of gear, it's because they want your $$$. No matter what they say or how reasonable it sounds, it's about $$$. :o

I use my own gear and I get funny looks and off hand remarks, but whatever.

They like to pull that you have to use our gear at tournaments, and then they promptly point you to the vendor table.

OR

1) people are f-in cheap and will find some piece of crap that will be unsafe both for themselves and those they are working with

and

2) people are lazy and won't go out immediately to buy their gear, so they'll show up at class without the gear they need, want to borrow stuff and will be a pain in the arse

So any smart instructor sells the gear they need and sells it to them when they join.....

[lunghushan]

It just seems like you should buy the gear that your school uses in most cases.

Unless of course they don't use good stuff, in which case then why are you going there anyway?

If it's a good school that doesn't overcharge on stuff, then by buying the gear there you're supporting the school. Schools that don't overcharge are usually just breaking even anyway, so some support wouldn't hurt.

And if you don't like your school or they overcharge or they use crappy gear then you probably shouldn't be training there anyway.

[David Jamieson]

www.canbox.ca

nice gear. I like the Boes stuff myself, but there's plenty of comparable stuff out there.

[syn]

My sifu is a very traditional since he grew up training under Lee Yat Ming, so he has some old padding but generally our sparring isn't full contact, and we won't use pads because he likes to emphasis having enough control to touch the sking but apply no force. But the other day I was doing full contactish sparring with a buddy of mine who does wrestling, and we both beat eachother up pretty bad, so I think it might help having some padding.

Also I suggest most CMA guys to spar with grapplers because it really helps your imrovisation alot being that it's a whole new element. I still get my but kicked in grappling but I've improved and my friend went to state last year so I don't expect to do to well to him.

[syn]

So I don't mean to sound cheap, but think you have any of those gloves with a similar design but not so pricey? I'm not sure I can afford all of that x2 really. I'll probably have to even then end up buying only head gear and gloves. That's the essentials though so that should be good.

[SanHeChuan]

I sorry were you typing something? because all I read was $$$ $$$$$$ $$ :eek: J/k :p

If you are doing San Shou style fighting or some other serious contact fighting then sure gear would be an issue.

If your doing the kind of lightish rappy tappy sparring that most of the places that i've seen do. For Point sparring or even light continuous sparring, then gear is a non-issue.

My personal belief is that the gear used for that only creates the illusion of safty, when all it really protects you from is some minor bruses. Anyone could still seriously injure you if they were trying to. I prefere to start with out any gear at all, so instead of newbs throwing sloppy crap trying to get the "point/hit", they learn to use control and good technique because they don't have the illusion that they can just let fly.

I broke this guys nose a couple of weeks ago, because he charged me and literally ran into my "fist". Technically it was my forearm/elbow, I was soft and barely felt the contact, it was is own momentum that broke is nose. A face cage could have saved him, so would some caution, which is something you can learn faster without gear on.

Syn,

You can find boxing style head gear at walmart maybe or a sport store for around $30. :o

what city are you in anyway?

[MasterKiller]

Spend the $ on good gear now and save $ on medical bills later, imo...

[syn]

I'm in Dallas. I don't go to Austin much, but it seems like the cooler town of Texas really.

I would take it your implying san shou as in full contact with intent? (A guess)

Anyways yeah sparring without gear I'd be fine with but some of my TKD friends (we're friend through school not MA :p) don't like sparring without gear because they're used to having the gear at their school.

*EDIT: Also I'll probably head to Academy and see what they have.

[lunghushan]

Well, since this is the KF mag boards, there is of course www.martialartsmart.com (check out the link at the top of the page). They have some cheap stuff.

BTW if Gene ever reads this, my friend's son is in TKD, and they all use Tiger Claw gear, including uniforms. (With shorts). LOL

You don't have to get top of the line. You can search around and find some lower priced stuff.

But bottom line is sparring gear doesn't provide 100% protection (depending upon the strength of your partner, a lot less, like 20% or something) and you still have to be careful.

[SanHeChuan]

While I revel in any opportunity to make fun of TKD, in the Olympic style you are suppose to make hard contact now. I guess they figured they had all this gear they might as well put it to use. :cool:

If your not sparring hard, the tell them to SUCK IT UP!:eek:

Not that they turn their hips over enough to get real power out of their beloved roundhouses anyway. ;) :D

[lunghushan]

While I revel in any opportunity to make fun of TKD, in the Olympic style you are suppose to make hard contact now. I guess they figured they had all this gear they might as well put it to use. :cool:

If your not sparring hard, the tell them to SUCK IT UP!:eek:

Not that they turn their hips over enough to get real power out of their beloved roundhouses anyway. ;) :D

Yeah, TKD is ... well ... let's just say kid's TKD is even more watered down than Olympic TKD if such a thing were possible. But then again, they're just kids, and they seem to have fun. :)

The thing that I was doing for a while was going to TKD places and telling them they just do Shotokan. Their reactions were pretty funny, "No, this is an ANCIENT korean martial art more than 3000 years old." Right...

Then point them to the articles about how their founder was a Shotokan BB, and how similar their katas are to Shotokan, and watch the looks on their faces.

[MasterKiller]

Well, since this is the KF mag boards, there is of course www.martialartsmart.com (check out the link at the top of the page). They have some cheap stuff.

BTW if Gene ever reads this, my friend's son is in TKD, and they all use Tiger Claw gear, including uniforms. (With shorts). LOL

You don't have to get top of the line. You can search around and find some lower priced stuff.

But bottom line is sparring gear doesn't provide 100% protection (depending upon the strength of your partner, a lot less, like 20% or something) and you still have to be careful.

OK, while I support the forum when I can, please...PLEASE...why would you buy gear for sparring that has this disclaimer???? (see hilighted pic).

[syn]

OK, while I support the forum when I can, please...PLEASE...why would you buy gear for sparring that has this disclaimer???? (see hilighted pic).

Man I just lol'd so hard.

[lunghushan]

Man I just lol'd so hard.

That's so funny. I suppose they need a disclaimer for liability. Anyway another source is Kim Pacific (www.kimpacific.com). But I'm not a good one to ask about quality stuff because I haven't bought any gloves for almost 10 years now.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The thing that I was doing for a while was going to TKD places and telling them they just do Shotokan. Their reactions were pretty funny, "No, this is an ANCIENT korean martial art more than 3000 years old." Right...

Then point them to the articles about how their founder was a Shotokan BB, and how similar their katas are to Shotokan, and watch the looks on their faces.

Wow. Now THAT seems like a VERY productive use of time. I bet you showed them, huh? Maybe we'll make a badge for you, TKD-K (TKD-Killer) and you can take it upon yourself to visit schools all over the country and tell everyone all the things YOU think they should know about their martial arts, their training, gear, etc., as it appears you fancy yourself such an expert. :)

Neil/Lunghushan and whatever your other names are, you are truly an angry and bitter individual. I read your posts, and rarely, rarely, do you even try to offer any meaningful contributions to this forum. It appears from your posts, that you don't even study MA (anymore at least). Why do you bother? LOL

Maybe Santa will bring you a little cheer this year and you will stop being such a Grinch.

[Pork Chop]

get the gloves at the very least
i've always found gloves are the one area where trying to save a few dollars can really make a big difference (in a negative way).
Those mma gloves are about the best in the business for allowing you to transfer a good amount of force without cutting your partner to ribbons.

I've never been cut not wearing headgear & personally don't like it much.
having a tub of vaseline on hand to prevent cuts to the forehead, eyebrows, and nose should be enough.

shin guards are helpful if you're putting a lot of shin into your kicks and/or blocking with your shins a lot. I'm not sure you'd be doing this a whole lot, as i believe hung gar is more about the sidekick.

[monkeyking168]

i would recommend checking w/ your school prior to buying any type of sparring gear as they may or may not have any requirements on gear selection or check out what other people in your sparring class are wearing. i know at our school they do not allow the mma type gloves that are fingerless. alot of gear out there & it will basically end up w/ what you like & don't like. alot of trial & error in figuring out what will work for you & your style of sparring. i originally purchased a set of gear by sparmaster & as time went on, now my stuff is hodge podged together, as i have changed shin guards, hand protection, etc... as i have found my personnal preferences based upon my style.

oh... by the way don't forget to buy a groin protector & a mouth guard, it will save you alot of grief & not to mention pain... :D

cheers & happy holidays,
mk

[syn]

get the gloves at the very least
i've always found gloves are the one area where trying to save a few dollars can really make a big difference (in a negative way).
Those mma gloves are about the best in the business for allowing you to transfer a good amount of force without cutting your partner to ribbons.

shin guards are helpful if you're putting a lot of shin into your kicks and/or blocking with your shins a lot. I'm not sure you'd be doing this a whole lot, as i believe hung gar is more about the sidekick.

Yeah I definitely throw more side kicks than anything else.

So being that I have to buy two sets of gloves and money issues I've found two that I'm looking at:
http://www.martialartsmart.net/10x030.html
http://www.kimpacific.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/46 (click the picture to enlarge it)

Now the kim pacific for only +10 dollars I can upgrade from vinyl to leather which is apparently more durable. Also the kimpacific doesn't have the disclaimer "not for full contact" or whatever, so I was thinking of just buying two leather sets of theirs, and once I get more money I'd probably buy some head or shin gear. I'd say our sparring isn't rough enough though to need body gear, and it's borderline needing head gear.

Lama Pai Sifu: I agree it isn't the coolest thing going from place to place trying to make fools out of people, but attacking him you can't expect to be anymore productive than he was in the past.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Y

Lama Pai Sifu: I agree it isn't the coolest thing going from place to place trying to make fools out of people, but attacking him you can't expect to be anymore productive than he was in the past.

You are right. I am not really trying to attack him, although I have been attacked BY him in the past. I'm just really hoping that maybe, just maybe, he'll read something and see that from time to time, he acts like a (insert adjective here).

He probably has some good things that he can add to these posts, but he has continually trolled (under more than one name) and called myself and many others names, and attempted to make fun of their respective styles. He disappears for a bit, then starts posting 10+ times a day, and 90% of the time, he's just acting like a 'tard.' We had a good thread about lineage going, but it got locked when he started with his antics.

Trolls, or troll-like behavior is just baaaad for the forums.

Happy Holidays to all!

[syn]

Happy Holidays to all!
Happy holidays to you too!

Also Monkey King, our school isn't kean on sparring equipment because (I probably already said this) our sifu emphasis us having enough control to just barely touch the skin or cloth and still pull back. It's one thing to be able to land a strike, it's another to decide how much force you put into it.

[Eddie]

i still find it funny that people wear shin guards :cool: . Shins are easy to condition. Rather spend your money on gloves and maybe head gear. Or get two different types of gloves. MMA gloves and boxing gloves. this way, you can get the feel for both types.

How about a chest protector?

[Eddie]

sorry, I didnt read your post properly. Only now saw what you said about head gear and body gear.

If your school doesnt allow full contact, why do you want protective gear? Spend your mopney on somehting like the San Da dvds pwerhaps? ;)

[lunghushan]

Yeah I definitely throw more side kicks than anything else.

So being that I have to buy two sets of gloves and money issues I've found two that I'm looking at:
http://www.martialartsmart.net/10x030.html
http://www.kimpacific.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/46 (click the picture to enlarge it)

Now the kim pacific for only +10 dollars I can upgrade from vinyl to leather which is apparently more durable. Also the kimpacific doesn't have the disclaimer "not for full contact" or whatever, so I was thinking of just buying two leather sets of theirs, and once I get more money I'd probably buy some head or shin gear. I'd say our sparring isn't rough enough though to need body gear, and it's borderline needing head gear.

Lama Pai Sifu: I agree it isn't the coolest thing going from place to place trying to make fools out of people, but attacking him you can't expect to be anymore productive than he was in the past.

Actually in a school a long time ago they had us buy those same Kim Pacific gloves (which is why I mention it) and they seemed to do just fine for sparring even with pretty hard contact, but I didn't use them for more than 6 months.

Lama Pie whatever ... LOL I went to a lot of schools, trying to find something decent, and TKD is, well, let's just say ... SAD ... so when they pulled out the TKD is so great, TKD is the best, TKD is 3000 years old, TKD's round kicks can kill anybody, that's when I broke out the Shotokan.

But it's okay. Obviously you are the greatest. LOL

[Eddie]

Actually in a school a long time ago they had us buy those same Kim Pacific gloves (which is why I mention it) and they seemed to do just fine for sparring even with pretty hard contact, but I didn't use them for more than 6 months.



they used to use those type of gloves in the Kuoshu association down here. Not a good idea since they used those head gears with the mask on. Your front knuckes are exposed and many fighters had serious injuries and cuts to their hands as a result of the limited protection.

But seriously, if you're not going to make contact, is it really needed?

[syn]

sorry, I didnt read your post properly. Only now saw what you said about head gear and body gear.

If your school doesnt allow full contact, why do you want protective gear? Spend your mopney on somehting like the San Da dvds pwerhaps? ;)

It's not that they don't allow it, no one really does it often (occasionally) , but it's outside of school with other friends that I spar and that's where I'll be using them.

Also Lungshushan was there any reason you didn't them for another 6 months? Or you just never really picked 'em up?

[lunghushan]

they used to use those type of gloves in the Kuoshu association down here. Not a good idea since they used those head gears with the mask on. Your front knuckes are exposed and many fighters had serious injuries and cuts to their hands as a result of the limited protection.

But seriously, if you're not going to make contact, is it really needed?

We used a slightly older model of that version for karate without any head gear or mouth guards, just cups and foot pads.

I never had any problems with the cuts but we didn't have a mask. Your front knuckles are exposed so of course you have to be a little careful, but if you make a fist, that pulls them back.

If you get sloppy, yeah, you could get hurt but you have to keep in mind that the glove isn't 100% protection anyway. You also still can't go all out or you'll hurt your partner.

We also used them in harder contact tournament sparring, with no problems. But again, no masks.

[lunghushan]

It's not that they don't allow it, no one really does it often (occasionally) , but it's outside of school with other friends that I spar and that's where I'll be using them.

Also Lungshushan was there any reason you didn't them for another 6 months? Or you just never really picked 'em up?

I bought them for that school, and for sparring at that school. I still have 'em (I've got one on right now). When I moved from that area after about 6 months, I didn't use them.

I think I might have used them a couple of times since, just for random sparring, like I think I brought them to some local Shotokan classes, but you know, most schools have their own type of gear.

The thing I really like about these gloves is the backfist protection. It's got a lot of padding on the backfist, so you can really nail people with a backfist.

Not so much protection for front fist, though. You kindof have to roll your hand over when you hit them otherwise there's not that much padding.

They have some grabbing ability, but grabbing is still a bit awkward with them.

[syn]

they used to use those type of gloves in the Kuoshu association down here. Not a good idea since they used those head gears with the mask on. Your front knuckes are exposed and many fighters had serious injuries and cuts to their hands as a result of the limited protection.

But seriously, if you're not going to make contact, is it really needed?


I'm trying to explain this to you. In school we don't really make contact or at least anything near neading equipment, BUT outside of school we do much more contact (I wouldn't say full) and I think it warrants at least some gloves, also we're mainly just doing grabs and punches (with a fist) so the front knuckles, while they could be a danger, won't be as bad as without gloves.

[lunghushan]

I'm trying to explain this to you. In school we don't really make contact or at least anything near neading equipment, BUT outside of school we do much more contact (I wouldn't say full) and I think it warrants at least some gloves, also we're mainly just doing grabs and punches (with a fist) so the front knuckles, while they could be a danger, won't be as bad as without gloves.

You know, putting this glove on and trying out the surfaces, I think the reason my sparring partners used to complain a lot about excessive force is because it really doesn't cushion that much except for the backfist.

Shuto style strikes, ridge hand, and straight punches there's just not that much padding with these gloves.

Oh, well. They had the same style gloves. LOL

[Eddie]

I understand. ;) Best would probably be the MMA type gloves then.

just a question... why do we wear gloves? is it for protection of the hands, or to soften the blow to your partner... or both? :cool:

syn - for HG, Im sure even boxing gloves will be ok.

[syn]

They're just complainers I guess. :p

[lunghushan]

They're just complainers I guess. :p

Actually, hitting myself in the torso with these things, I think they might have had a point. I wasn't really paying attention then. In a front fist strike it really doesn't have much padding there at all.

I think the problem is I came to that school from World Oyama in NYC, which is pretty hard core karate. They practice for full contact kumite there no padding or anything, so they are pretty brutal with each other. Like they had one drill where they line up into two lines and you go down the line and you just pound on your partner's torso for a while. Even the chicks do it!!!

[syn]

Eddie: Well it won't just be HG people using the gloves, my brother does 7* mantis and it'd be a lot harder for him to use boxing gloves :p

Lung: Are the ones you have the vinyl or leather? Also it seems that they don't have labeled the actual measurements of each size, so I"m 16, and most of the people using the gloves could be any where from 15-21, would you say medium or large gloves?

[lunghushan]

Eddie: Well it won't just be HG people using the gloves, my brother does 7* mantis and it'd be a lot harder for him to use boxing gloves :p

Lung: Are the ones you have the vinyl or leather? Also it seems that they don't have labeled the actual measurements of each size, so I"m 16, and most of the people using the gloves could be any where from 15-21, would you say medium or large gloves?

I have the vinyl ones. In six months of sparring and a tournament, they came out unscathed, but we didn't go very hard.

It's too hard to say for sizes because it depends upon your hands. If you wear a large or medium standard glove, you'll probably want to go with that. If you can't find any gloves to check, you could buy some for a couple of dollars in the grocery store, like the kitchen gloves to check the sizing.

[Eddie]

how big is your hands? Ive seen some pretty big 16 year olds :eek:

those mma / billy blanks taebo gloves should be fine for you

[lunghushan]

You know, Syn, I have to say, if you're a teen and all that, not to be a spoilsport, but you probably want to find a good school and do your sparring there, not outside of school.

Because outside of a school people can get pretty stupid and accidents can happen worse than inside a school. Especially if people don't have a lot training.

[syn]

My hands are about 7" long and 4" wide. Where could I pick up the billy banks mma gloves?

I guess I might as well as head over to google.

[lunghushan]

My hands are about 7" long and 4" wide. Where could I pick up the billy banks mma gloves?

I guess I might as well as head over to google.

Yeah, I think you'd be a large size glove.

But seriously, you probably would be better off doing sparring in a school. If your Hung Ga school doesn't do much sparring you could always take TKD or something where they do more.

The thought of a bunch of teens sparring is a bit, well, heck I was a teen, and we used to mess around a bit, even my friend last week was telling me about how we used to spar after class (I had totally forgotten that).

But without somebody around to correct you, especially if you're working with somebody without much training, accidents can happen.

You're probably better off doing it in a school.

[syn]

You know, Syn, I have to say, if you're a teen and all that, not to be a spoilsport, but you probably want to find a good school and do your sparring there, not outside of school.

Because outside of a school people can get pretty stupid and accidents can happen worse than inside a school. Especially if people don't have a lot training.

Hmm well while of course I'll take your advice I can't say it'd stop me from sparring my friends, probably mainly because I think it'll help my training encountering other styles. Now I do have pads (really a bunch of old matresses) for us to spar on, and it's not really full contact but it's enough to bruise you up a little, anyways thanks for trying to keep me from being killed. :p

[lunghushan]

Hmm well while of course I'll take your advice I can't say it'd stop me from sparring my friends, probably mainly because I think it'll help my training encountering other styles. Now I do have pads (really a bunch of old matresses) for us to spar on, and it's not really full contact but it's enough to bruise you up a little, anyways thanks for trying to keep me from being killed. :p

There was a teen killed a while back when sparring with some friends. They were just hitting him in the torso and stuff with gear but he died from it. There was even a video of it.

So I'd be remiss in not telling you to be careful. Because people can get out of control in sparring -- not just doing stupid things but also angry, and without an adult or somebody to pull them off, they could do damage.

[syn]

I honestly when sparring don't get angry, mainly because I'm expecting to be hit, and so it's no suprise when I am. Also there are kids who walk to school trip and die. :p

Me and my friends who I'm willing to spar with know how far to take it generally, and if people start showing signs of anger then it's best not to spar with them at that time.

[lunghushan]

I honestly when sparring don't get angry, mainly because I'm expecting to be hit, and so it's no suprise when I am. Also there are kids who walk to school trip and die. :p

Me and my friends who I'm willing to spar with know how far to take it generally, and if people start showing signs of anger then it's best not to spar with them at that time.

In sparring there always people who when they get hit a few times they tend to get aggressive and upset. So it's better if you don't know the people that well (haven't sparred with them much), to see how they respond.

In a class situation that type of person has much more peer pressure to behave better, and the instructor can pull them off if they get out of control.

Anyways, they've done studies that teens self preservation part of their brain isn't very well developed, so of course you probably won't listen to any advice. :)

Let's just hope your parents are paying attention to what you're doing. :)

[syn]

Don't worry about me. Now excuse me while I go jump off my house and land on my head. :p

[Pork Chop]

Yeah I definitely throw more side kicks than anything else.

So being that I have to buy two sets of gloves and money issues I've found two that I'm looking at:
http://www.martialartsmart.net/10x030.html
http://www.kimpacific.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/46 (click the picture to enlarge it)

Now the kim pacific for only +10 dollars I can upgrade from vinyl to leather which is apparently more durable. Also the kimpacific doesn't have the disclaimer "not for full contact" or whatever, so I was thinking of just buying two leather sets of theirs, and once I get more money I'd probably buy some head or shin gear. I'd say our sparring isn't rough enough though to need body gear, and it's borderline needing head gear.



I'd still just get the 1 pair of the blue MMA gloves from CSI.
that should be all you need, maybe a 30 dollar pair of everlast bag gloves if you don't want to use those on the bags.

Those CSI gloves are nice, about the perfect level of protection to land as solid as you need to with a reasonable amount of injury avoidance for your knuckles & your partner. Technology-wise, they're on a whole other level than the links you posted. no offense to Gene, but i absolutely despise those karate chop gloves like the kim pacifics.

[GeneChing]

As for the disclaimer, I know, it's absurd, but such is our legal system. Of course, there's a converse effect, if you sit and think about it. If you get injured using some other brand of gear, no matter what the quality, you have my permission to sue the pants of them. ;)

[syn]

Pork: Like these?
http://mmamuscle.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=1841
http://www.gungfu.com/cart-htm/training_gear_gloves_fingerless_combat_sports.htm (first ones on top for that site, but they're almost too cheap looking)
http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf2.aspx?ID=22292

[Pork Chop]

These are the only ones I recommend:
http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf2.aspx?ID=22292

Take this with a grain of salt though, coz as a boxer i generally think mma guys are insane for sparring with harbingers.

[syn]

Alright, I think I'll be able to afford those.

What do you mean harbingers?

[Pork Chop]

http://www.amazon.com/Harbinger-Glove-WristWrap-Black-Large/dp/B00074H7K0/sr=1-13/qid=1166741559/ref=sr_1_13/105-7255684-4008411?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods

i have a pair, they're harder than any bag glove i've ever owned & bag gloves aren't made for sparring...