How can i tell between good/bad instructor?

[stubbs]

My kungfu instructor teaches the class some qigong every now and then, but i want to do it more regulary, the are several tai chi classes around me and i was wondering how i can tell a good teacher from a bad one or doesn't it matter?

when i was deciding what kungfu teacher to go with it was easy, i sparred them, looked at their forms, concepts, and how i got along with them.

but with tai chi, for me it seems harder because a tai chi/ chi kung(qigong) technique is designed to work for you internaly, rather than externaly on an opponant.

any suggestions?

thanks in advance.
stubbs

"satisfaction loses,and humility gains"

[les paul]

It's the same in internal gung fu.

Provided that your humble......If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side.

This could be good or bad, depending on what your looking for.

Paul

[Chris McKinley]

Hi stubbs,

RE: "...but with tai chi, for me it seems harder because a tai chi/ chi kung(qigong) technique is designed to work for you internaly, rather than externaly on an opponant." That's partly incorrect. Internal "techniques", postures, etc. are certainly designed to work internally on you, promoting qi flow, balancing the meridians, increasing reserves, etc. However, Taiji's movements do not ONLY have qigong applications. They are designed to work quite well as combat applications against an opponent. So it's not really a case of "either/or", but rather "both/and".

At the VERY least, ask to see a demonstration of the combat applications of several Taiji postures. If the instructor is unable or unwilling to provide such a demonstration, I suggest you look elsewhere. Normally, it is quite common for legitimate instructors of various Kung Fu styles to refuse giving a demo of their stuff to people who aren't yet students, perhaps even the norm in some places. Taijiquan is somewhat of a special case in this regard, though. Even with millions of daily practitioners of Taiji worldwide, relatively few know or even know about the combat applications of the art.

In my experience, the few instructors with legitimate knowledge of Taijiquan as a fighting art are usually more than happy to demonstrate it to you, since they are aware that they are "competing", in a sense, with the multitude of watered-down instructors out there. Best of luck! :)

[This message was edited by Chris McKinley on 09-09-01 at 12:00 PM.]

[GLW]

"Provided that your humble......If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side. "

What a BS generalization of any art.

Why should anyone cross hands with a person who just walks in off the street?

I have visitors come to my class - my teacher's class as well and ask such questions.

When I am in MY class, my time belongs to me or to my students. To take away from that to try to impress or convince some prospective new student who has made NO committment to me is a waste of my time and cheating my students.

Should a visitor press this point, I may show them something but I would probably never accept them as a student. More rude people without patience I do NOT need.

In my teacher's class, it would be the same. they may get their a$$ handed to them on a platter..but they would never be allowed back in the door as well.

Watch a class, ask questions, but remember you are a guest and visitor. As a guest, I extend hospitality to you. As a visitor, you do not abuse it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I would have to agree with GLW, If a person walks in off the street and asks to spar or play hands with the sifu, they are looking for nothing more than their ego to attepmt to be inflated. further more is shows great dissrepect to challenge some one with whom you are looking to teach you. Try walking into a resturant and tell the chef you want to see how good he cooks, you would have a better chance.
One way to tell is by his posture , fluidity of movement and his creditability or teacher! I would be more persuaded to learn from a chinese or a person with a chinese teacher! please do not take this the wrong way but closer to the source is always better!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kumkuat]

knowing some "fighting application" is not the true test if the instructor knows anything. Many people that knows "fighting applications" do it externally. So you have to find someone that will "show fighting applications" with internal strenght not external strength.

[Shooter]

In finding a good teacher, you shouldn't concern yourself with their abilities. What they can do with their skill has nothing to do with their ability to empower others with the skill.

I don't think you'll be able to discern much from their showing techniques found in the postures anyway. That's just crazy.

The only way to know if someone has good teaching skill is to spend the time and gain the experience of having them give you regular lessons. It's a win-win situation as long as you keep an open mind.

If you're looking for combative skills in the art, look for a teacher who claims to have that covered in their curriculum. They should be able to show you something right there, on the first day. It should be simple and effective and not require weeks or months to have proficiency with. If what they show is a complicated sequence with any kind of set-up, then they're teaching combat on a theoretical level.

As advised by a number of respected TCMAs teachers, if there isn't a bin full of well worn gloves, head-gear, etc, somewhere in the kwoon, if there isn't a heavy bag and some kind of training mat, then the likelihood of learning practical fighting skill is minimal. That doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained though.

Ultimately, Tai Chi is a hand-to-hand fighting art. Real H2H can't be demonstrated in a sterile environment. The training might include lessons outside in a park, parking lot, alleyway, anywhere. Lessons should also cover 'eclectic' weapons recognition, acquisition, and retention, as well as countering the attacker's weapon/s.

A big plus is if the training addresses the emotional stressing involved in all violent encounters and covers post-event strategies to help relieve the stresses one inevitably is left to deal with after such an encounter.

That isn't to say that the instructor should have a PHD in some branch of psych-science. They should however have a practical knowledge of what's involved with the mental processes of pre and post-fight stress.

We don't live in a perfect world though. You have to make the best of what's available. Good luck.

[bamboo_ leaf]

You are not in a position to judge anything.
With out some basic knowledge you won’t understand what you are really seeing.
Many people talk of fighting, this to me is very funny, as most people cannot even meet the basic requirements of really relaxing to play TC.

As for internal strength again most people haven’t felt it to really know the difference.
There are much more basic requirements to meet before you could even address this.

My advice would be to see how you feel about the teacher and the class. Talk with the students and see how they like it. If your overly concerned about fighting you probably won’t get it anyway and will not be able to learn it because your to filled with the idea of opposition. (fighting)

When you stop thinking of fighting then maybe you will meet some one who can wants to teach you.

I occasionally have people ask me about my TC in the parks; some want to learn and ask to try different things with me. Usually I push them out or make them fall. Even if I wanted to teach them which at this point I wouldn’t they wouldn’t be able to learn anything because their mind has to much in it all ready.

A famous teacher (linage) is not always good either as you might not have the skill to learn the things that he/she is teaching. Being Chinese is no guarantee of anything.

So again I would look for something that felt good, wait a couple of years or until you have a basis’s for understanding then decide if the teacher / class meets your expectations.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[les paul]

Provided that your humble......If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side. "

What a BS generalization of any art.

Why should anyone cross hands with a person who just walks in off the street?

I have visitors come to my class - my teacher's class as well and ask such questions.

When I am in MY class, my time belongs to me or to my students. To take away from that to try to impress or convince some prospective new student who has made NO committment to me is a waste of my time and cheating my students.

Should a visitor press this point, I may show them something but I would probably never accept them as a student. More rude people without patience I do NOT need.

In my teacher's class, it would be the same. they may get their a$$ handed to them on a platter..but they would never be allowed back in the door as well.

Watch a class, ask questions, but remember you are a guest and visitor. As a guest, I extend hospitality to you. As a visitor, you do not abuse it.


End quote......From GLW




Sorry, I don't buy the car without a test drive!!!

And I don't recomend anyone else do either.

Including my students !!!!

Please....... In my twenty years of doing martial arts....If I had a dime for every fake, drunk, wannabe with no actual experience in a real fight, that I'd seen teaching martial arts, I'd be rich!

The only time I would ask to cross hands with an instructor is if I questioned their martial prowess in the first place. Second, I'd approach in the most humble manner(yes, I've have walked into a place and requested a match, but it was after a class) I was refused, I figured I was right in my original assuption and departed with no bad feelings by all.

Please...... I think your taking to much offense in my original post. I can only assume someone came into your school questioned someone (maybe you or your students) and did ask for a demo which you probably refused and figured you some how lost face.

If you feel that way fine, However....

The particular time I asked to cross hands, I wasn't even refering to the head instructor, I said anyone would do. This would help me gauge
the skill of the school

I'm not going to go into how to tell a legit school when you see one, that's for another post and another day.

However...

It doesn't take long in the world of martial arts for someone to be able to tell an alpha male from a beta male....


If you suspect an instructor's prowess, I can't think of a better way of finding out if your assumptions are correct other than by crossing hands with him or one of his top students.



What's the worst that can happen? You get your butt stomped, oooooh like that hasn't happened to us all before in some way or fashion. (if you haven't had your ass stomped before, don't bother responding to the post, it would speak volumes of your training!!!!!)

If you get stomped, then you get in line with everyone else, fully confident that your new instructor is legit.



Now if the reverse happens! You will think you did right in asking to see the goods prior to payment.

By the way, I do teach and I give time to people who questions my methods or my prowess.

I got nothin to hide......

That doesn't mean they get an immediate one on one. I tell them stand down till the end of class then will talk.

I figure I don't know it all and if someone walks through my doors and can hand my ass to me on a silver platter then I better be in his class the next day! Come hell or High water!!!!!


"This is my perspective on the matter, doesn't mean it's right, it's just my perspective."

Paul
Michigan

[HuangKaiVun]

Read Nigel Sutton's book "Applied Tai Chi", stubbs.

[GLW]

"Please....... In my twenty years of doing martial arts....If I had a dime for every fake, drunk, wannabe with no actual experience in a real fight, that I'd seen teaching martial arts, I'd be rich!"

And challenging a teacher when you are a guest prevents this HOW?

"The only time I would ask to cross hands with an instructor is if I questioned their martial prowess in the first place. Second, I'd approach in the most humble manner(yes, I've have walked into a place and requested a match, but it was after a class) I was refused, I figured I was right in my original assuption and departed with no bad feelings by all."

A begginner is in no position to know what to ask. If you question their prowess, why bother in the first place. Move on and find someone else. You will be a lot happier and you WILL have applied a basic principle of Taijiquan in the process.

"Please...... I think your taking to much offense in my original post. I can only assume someone came into your school questioned someone (maybe you or your students) and did ask for a demo which you probably refused and figured you some how lost face."

Talk about a ladder of inference...

Not at all. I have had students who disrupted my class with such attitudes and had to almost hurt them. It is a waste of my time, unnecessary, and disruptinve to everyone else.

I have also had friends who met such challenges only to have their school subjected to arson, drive bys, their car vandalized...all because they won. For the teacher, it is a total no win situation.

Such students are also almost always approaching with a full rather than an empty cup.

In Taijiquan, I have had such people come in, I have also had them come in and want me to teach them advanced things from the start. To date, NONE have had even the start of decent basics.

Again, I view it as a waste of my time. I don't need to sell what I do. I will answer any questions but beyond that, I can't be bothered. NO SINGLE STUDENT is worth the hassle just off the street. Once I know a student, I will bend over backward for them...that is like family...but not just in the door. Face doesn't enter into it. It is just a waste of time and energy.


"I'm not going to go into how to tell a legit school when you see one, that's for another post and another day."

Yet, that was his original question.

"However...

If you suspect an instructor's prowess, I can't think of a better way of finding out if your assumptions are correct other than by crossing hands with him or one of his top students."

Why bother. If you have such suspicions, move on. It is faster and probably more correct 80% of the time. To cross hands in such an instance is like saying "This food tastes like it is spoiled. Let me take another bite and see"


"What's the worst that can happen? You get your butt stomped, oooooh like that hasn't happened to us all before in some way or fashion. (if you haven't had your ass stomped before, don't bother responding to the post, it would speak volumes of your training!!!!!) "


Been thrown across the room on my ass, picked up and trown back six feet from a punch....etc...all it told me was that I needed to train...it told me nothing about the teacher except that they knew more than me. That is a far cry than telling me what depth their knowledge really was.

"That doesn't mean they get an immediate one on one. I tell them stand down till the end of class then will talk."

I don't care to waste my time there. I teach till late and have a day job. I am not willing to give up my personal time on matters of someone else wanting to test me. I simply tell them..."Oh, you may be right, look elsewhere" Of course, this is a far cry from them starting trouble. In that case, the end result for them is not pleasant.

[Nexus]

It usually only takes about 6 months before an instructor is comfortable responding to pretty much whatever martial request you have. Usually they want to make sure you are commited, and willing to learn and practice the methods they show you. Honestly, if you find a teacher you think has what you are looking for, but you are lets say, 80% sure, give them 6 months to show you that 20% thats lacking, and by then you should also be able to ask them to show you what you want to see, if of course you are ready for it. It is pointless in the internal arts though for a teacher to explain things that will go right over your head, especially if you are not serious about the art enough to practice it as they once had to/do now.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[les paul]

I just gotta ask.....

With around a 1000 posts to your name and being on-line for around 24 months, making the average number of posts per month to be around 41, how do you do it.

I'm sorry, just gotta ask!

Where do you find the time to teach, let alone part your deep wisdom onto your students?

With 41 posts a month, "hell that's alot time spent at a desk"

You must have a day job at a computer, "Yes, it must be how you do it."

Hmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmmmm???????


Somehow I got the feeling your going to tell me you pratice and teach Yang style taijiquan.


Not that I think there's anything wrong with that.

And.......

Not that I think somethings not right with you either, but since your wisdom is so heavy (heavy enouph to say that my comments were BS)

You must be a somebody!

You should have let me know just how important you are from the start. he he he he he

I bet all your students know just how important you are? right?

Then I could of hung my head in shame right from the start.


"I need to learn better time management, then I could post more often like you.

Got any advise on managing time?

I'm having trouble working and teaching and training myself, oh yea, I left out occasional tournaments I and my students do on the week-ends.

[GLW]

Spanky or is it NOT TO CALL YOU,

your tone is one of accusation. You obviously have not thought much about how to ask a question to get a valid response.

"With around a 1000 posts to your name and being on-line for around 24 months, making the average number of posts per month to be around 41, how do you do it.

I'm sorry, just gotta ask!"

I use this board to turn my work off a bit. I report to my job at 7 AM, I work 11 hour days, I then report to my classes at 7 PM and drag my butt home around 11 PM every day.

I have Friday afternoon off for personal time.

I teach 3 days a week and I train with my teacher 3. In my classes, I am in the front line doing the drill first and then checking out my students. It IS about time management.

I TRAIN with my students. When they do Tan Tui, I do Tan Tui. When they stand in horse, I stand in horse....except for a few moments of correction.

I answer at times that are lulls. For example, when developing software, you have to design first....so I consider the design...then I browse a bit while it solidifies, then I write it down. It is NOT at all uncommon for my computer to have a minimum of 5 or 6 windows open in which I am doing REAL work. I manage a team of 10 developers and am responsible for the design, testing, implementation, and support for all of the software for a small (350 people) company.

You can't do that unless you think fast, type fast, manage your time, and KNOW what you are doing.

I have degrees in Engineering, Psychology, and a minor in English... I would pursue the MS and PHD in engineering but it would require me to give up training. I also teach Taijiquan at my office to around 15 people twice a week at lunch - then I pick up my sandwich and eat while I work at my PC or in meetings with my staff. That is an hour of basics and leg work for me...and an hour of learning for those in the class.


"Where do you find the time to teach, let alone part your deep wisdom onto your students?"

This is a tactless thing to say. How long have you been involved in CMA and such? I have been doing this stuff since 1974.

"With 41 posts a month, "hell that's alot time spent at a desk"

And how much time did you spend researching me to make such a point over a difference of opinion? 41 per month...hmmm...that is about 1.3 posts a day. I write more documentation than that for software in a morning. I only read those posts that interest me. A T-1 line helps too.


"You must have a day job at a computer, "Yes, it must be how you do it."


Yes it is.... It pays the bills nicely. I use the web to clear my mind while solving tech problems. If I were to do Qi Gong, it would be misconstrued as something else - like sleeping - my predecessor was narcoleptic and slept at his PC.

"Somehow I got the feeling your going to tell me you pratice and teach Yang style taijiquan."

Zha Quan, Wing Chun, Northern shaolin Long Fist, 24, 32, 42, 48 Taijiquan, Yang style, Sun Style, other Taiji weapons. Long weapons - The Ma Dao is my favorite...two handed straight sword, etc... and lots of basics. I DO NOT do wimpy Taijiquan...if you don't have leg strength and good body alignment in my class or my teacher's you do not last long.


"Not that I think there's anything wrong with that."

BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY DO. If you can't argue the point of a post without attacking the person posting, then you have nothing to say anyway. As I said, I do not waste my time in class...other places...maybe...but not in class.

"I need to learn better time management, then I could post more often like you."

A bit of self respect and respect for others wouldn't hurt either. Your original idea of crossing hands with a teacher was BAD advice if the teacher is a traditional Chinese teacher. That is what I said was BS.

"Got any advise on managing time?

I'm having trouble working and teaching and training myself, oh yea, I left out occasional tournaments I and my students do on the week-ends. "

Try working, teaching, training, JUDGING at competitions, and being active in trying to make the CMA community grow. Try my schedule and then add in things like showing up to be a head judge at a national level tournamnt an hour before the competitors and leaving 2 hours after the event is over. If you have competed using USAWKF rules, you have seen some of the things I have helped write over the years. Doing with around 5.5 hours of sleep a night helps too.

Excuse me if I stepped on your toes but You have NOT exactly displayed an open mind. I don't know where you live but where I am, some of the things you advised can get you shot, sued, or both.

I have known many traditional Chinese masters both in the US and met many in China. NONE of them would accept a student who came in the way you suggested. If the student were in the class for a while, as someone else suggested, that is a different story.

Time management...first lesson is if you have doubts, go with them and walk. It saves time and you are right 80% of the time. An 80-20 solution in engineering is quite good.

To go furhter on this is a waste of my time... Saijin

[Sum Guye]

I don't think 'Don't-c-m-Spanky' meant:
"challange a teacher" WHILE their teaching a class. That would be arrogant and rude.

And if you're not willing to do a little friendly sparring with someone- you've got no business teaching a MARTIAL ART. (and if you can't handle yourself when a jerk comes in to do some non-friendly sparring... you're in the wrong line of work, chum.


Observe a class.
Take note of how students respond to a teacher.
Take note of how/what the teacher teaches.
Does he/she have something you'd like to learn.
(if an IMA class has mats and teaches applications for the form's movements- that's a good sign.)

It's all a progression.. you may find one teacher you are certain is great... you learn alot, then you stumble across another teacher and realize the frist teacher was just mediocre etc. etc. etc. The most important thing is that you build on your own knowledge/skill in the process.

it's that simple.
Good teachers are patient, through, affordable and kind.

Peace, Love and AppleJacks.
Sum Guye

[les paul]

That is exactly what I meant and he knows it!


GLW, What do you mean by me not being open minded?

Are you not the one who put my words in quotes and then commented on them?



Here in metro Detroit, most schools have open nights. Let me give you a few off the top of my head (these are mostly the ones I have visited in some way or another)

Kronk's Boxing:

(Many champions found here)

Tripp Academy;

(Best jujitsu and Judo in the Midwest, Dan "the Beast" Sevrens trained out of here for his return trip to the UFC, which he won)

Detroit San Shou:

This gym houses some of the best San Shou and Muai tai fighters in the mid-west. Plenty of champions here also.....

Any Issinryu Karate in the metro Detroit area

"Hell they will drag you off the street because they love to spar so much...

Any Koi-kan Karate Dojo:

Sensei Frost and Co: Bogo amour or no Bogo amour......"nuff said here"

Berkley Kook Soul Won (Korean jujitsu): home of some very fine fighters like Mike Fox and Co..

Woodward Shaolin Kung Fu:
Nice!.......

Sterling Hts Aiki-jujitsu: I can sum up them in two words..."be prepared!!!!!"

My list could go on and on and on,

All have open nights..........

Any of these places you could go in and in a respectful friendly manner ask to spar after class or come back on their open night. This is done for a couple of reasons.

Just as you said Sum Guye "it's part of the business and comes with the territory"

No, I wasn't talking about going in a starting a fight. GLW you couldn't have thought I was saying that. If you did, you should have asked to me explain my statement further, instead of shooting off like I'm some kind of troll.


To see if a school is legit, you go down and get on the deck and mix it up with some of the students or the instructors on open night etc

Common knowledge...after all it is martial arts were talking about isn't it?

GLW if you have been around as long as your bio say's you knows this.

Why are you so tick off at this notion?


I teach my Xingyiquan with the same intensity of most external schools listed above: I can't say that I'm a better teacher than those listed above because there are some great teachers at these schools!!! Nor do I dare put myself in the same league with some of them either.

But...

I can say that the local Yang or Wu style Taijiquan schools are not of the same caliber of the schools listed above, nor do they have an open night. And they suffer greatly from their lack of compitition

It's like they are oblivious to what is actually out there! (And most of their students are of like mind i.e. blind following the blind)

My Xingyiquan instructor would walk away from them saying whatever...... whatever....... "Have a nice day........ As did I, after experiencing what they had to offer.

That isn't saying they are bad (as I said in my original post) But if you want to know if a school is legit (in a martial sense, not in a health sense) and you can't tell, then I recommend you cross hands with someone before spending money or worst yet valuable time on that school! Money people usually have or can get...it's time that is truly valuable...


Yes, some others have stated it is better to stick around for a while before you make up you mind about an instructor. These opinions have real merit.



Since the original post was about an internal art, and I feel differntly about how to tell if an instructor is legit, I figured my first post was saving that guy some valuable time!!!!!!

And GLW!

No! My first post wasn't BS and no I didn't give bad advice.

But, I might have given advice that is bad for a few teachers out there that I know...

We are just going to have to agree that we disagree and move on. (at least I am)

[EARTH DRAGON]

hang on a second you posted this?
And if you're not willing to do a little friendly sparring with someone- you've got no business teaching a MARTIAL ART. (and if you can't handle yourself when a jerk comes in to do some non-friendly sparring... you're in the wrong line of work, chum.
I have been a sifu of ba bu tang lang and shyun tai chi chuan for over 7 years now and never has someone walked in to my kwon and disspresected me by asking me to spar them to see if I was a good teacher! that is a horrible thing you said that if teachers dont do this they have no business teaching martial arts! I would think that a teacher that stoops to the level of sparring a person off the street has no business teaching! what kind of sifu would accept an obvious no win situation simply to impress a young eagar not yet student! I find that teachers like that are just showing off to inflate their own egos and nothing more! and again martial arts is about discipline and respect, what kind of role model teaches those theories but does not live by them?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[les paul]

Earth Dragon

I can't believe you think Yang Lu-chan sucked!

He welcomed anyone into his Kwoon that wanted a match!

I can't believe you think Chen Fa-ke sucks.
Heck, by all accounts he went looking for matches at other Kwoons

Wang Shu Jin: he would accept a challenge just about anytime....in class out out of class, it didn't matter..

I guess you think he sucked also!

How about Chen man-ching? Didn't Robert Smith write about Master Chen accepting a sparring match from a Karateka? on a moments notice.

I guess he was a man of low integrity also.....


I could go on and on.....with examples like this

Here is a modern example:

We wouldn't know about Gracie BJJ if they didn't accept people comming into the dojo and asking to sample the goods ("granted... I think they took this to the extreme....but Gracie BJJ!!! nuff said)


If anything, the Chinese masters I listed above had that same mentality that the Gracie's have.

This is the mentality I was talking about, this is the mentality of a good teacher.

Chances are if an instructor or one of his senior students will spar with you (being new to a school) they got something you want and they have nothing to hide.


Most of the time you know right when you walk through the door if an instructor is legit. Most of the time you can tell by his/hers students (because they are a direct reflection of the instructor) However, we are talking about internal arts and sometimes it hard to tell who knows what.

Lots and lots of fakes and frauds abound in the internal arts.


It seems to me that this fighting mentality is the same mentality towards martial arts you and GLW put down as low integrity teaching or "BS"


I personnaly (as with a few other instructors) don't have a problem answering a question in a physical nature to people new to my methods.

There is nothing wrong with this, nor is it somehow ego inflation either...

If anything it's enlightenment!

As with GLW we also are going to have to agree to disagree on this matter...

[EARTH DRAGON]

first: never did I ever say that anyone sucks! so lets get that clear!
second: the master and people that you posted are not living in todays soceity! if you want to get technical in the olden days one could not open a kwon with out fighting every scool owner in the surronding area first! they would burn a candle in the window to tell of a match the next day of a new sifu/new school and a old sifu/established school. If his fighting was worthy he was allowed to open!
this is modern day and with law suits and insurance claims, (that one has when they are a school owner) it is hard legally to strike a person off the street that has not signed a silly waiver, how ever without the obvious leagal problems you have more to lose than just money! to be a school owner you are asking for trouble to hit some person that walks in to your place of business just to show them how tough you are!
your point of view is not from a point of owning a business so please be a little more liberal in you comments! also If someone feels that they need to prove something by challenging me then my school is not the place to show them my abilities, but out back in the alley I would lock, break, rip, pull and tear.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Earth Dragon, you type very well for having such an extreme mental disability. You quoted what I said verbatim- but then ranted on about something I never said... it's kinda funny. (D-C-M-Spanky
seems to suffer a similar affliction... reads one
thing, takes it to a ridiculous extreme).

What I said was... "if you're not WILLING to do a little friendly sparring you've got no business
teaching a MARTIAL ART." (I'm not suggesting every teacher should FIGHT every student, nor that
every student should FIGHT every teacher at all.
'Willing' and 'Martial' are the opperative terms
in my sentence).

When I first got into Martial arts... I wouldn't
have asked anyone to spar. But now, I would not bother to study with someone who couldn't surpass me in skill. (by 'friendly sparring' I didn't imply doing serious damage to anyone nor threatening anyone). Someone with MARTIAL skill understands that.... too bad for your students you do not. (in 7 years you've never felt good enough to do a little sparring with someone you
don't know... wow... are you sure you're doing 'martial arts'?)

If someone states they teach 'Tai Ji forms and Chi Kung' then you know what to expect... forms and breathing skill lessons. But if someone states they teach Internal Martial Arts... then they are calling themselves martial artists and should be WILLING and able to spar IF asked.

If I went to your school (or Kwon, I'm American so I use English terminology like 'school' and 'teacher' rather than Chinese or Japanese terms)... and I watched you teach a class, and thought 'hmmmm this guy seems pretty good'. I would speak with you after the class and ask if you'd mind if we could do a little push hands for a few minutes to see if you can throw me.

If you said "no I don't spar" I wouldn't mind.
I but wouldn't return to learn from you.

If you said "okay" and couldn't pull off a clean throw. I wouldn't mind... I wouldn't return to learn from you.

I don't understand how you can see that as disrespectful. I wouldn't embarrass you in front of your students.. you would do that yourself.

Peace, love and good grub
Sum Guye

[EARTH DRAGON]

may I ask wherein my post I said this?

Someone with MARTIAL skill understands that.... too bad for your students you do not. (in 7 years you've never felt good enough to do a little sparring with someone you
don't know... wow... are you sure you're doing 'martial arts'?)

I never said that! now you are taking what I said out of text! who has an extreme mental disability?
and yes I'm sure that I am doing martial arts I trained under a chinese grandmaster going on 19 years now how about you? are you sure you understand my point of view. I would not mind having hands with anyone of my students but to any tom dick or harry that walks into my place of business and asks me to touch hands with them obviously needs something more than class times and costs! after they become my student and are now someone I put my time into then they can ask what ever they want for now they mean something to me!
one time I made the mistake of showing my freinds an iron palm break, since then every time someone new comes around they ask me to show their freind how I can break a brick with a slap. I then always answer come to my school and I will show you , this never happens and I like that , why should I show off to someone who is looking to be impressed!!!!! do you understand my point yet?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[neptunesfall]

since you asked about a good instructor - not a good fighter.....watch a class and see how they treat their students. does the instructor yell or treat them unfairly? does he seem to favor one or two students above the rest? does he correct on a student by student basis? also....when the teacher is demonstrating a form or drill, etc. watch to see if they correct their feet and footwork. a sifu who has to look down and see his feet to correct them and/or constantly has to correct them is not someone who has mastered what they have been taught

[Sum Guye]

My but you have a hard time understanding things.

I suggest you re-read the entire thread
(after a good cup of tea!) and discover
why you're being thick headed.

If you still don't understand, let me know- I'll
return from a trip next week and will gladly lay it all out for you again, in simpler terminology.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I understand quite well, but arguing my opinon is a bit ridiculous, I run my school very well and have many happy students, So I guess what I'm doing works well. And that is the way I feel , but your probably going to tell me how I feel is wrong so enjoy your vacation and have fun!
P.S push hands known as TUI SAO never has throwing techniques! the goal is to offset your opponents balance or in competition form push them out of a circle shaped ring. So never could you get off a clean throw as you stated! just wanted to clear that up. thanks feel free to visit my web site and check out me and master Lin Muo Hao cheif trainer and national coach of the Chinese national tui sao (push hands)team of taiwan R.O.C

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kevin Wallbridge]

So if its bad form to cross-hands with someone off of the street, what about the person that comes to you with genuine concerns about your skill level? How can you enlightened fellows spend so much effort trying to make gross generalizations about broad issues?

One of the problems with the internals is that you must touch to really guage a person's level. The beginner with absolutely no structure, unsure of the ends of his own limbs, may be the exception, yet I've seen people who look full, but are empty and vice versa.

"Can I feel it?" is not too confrontational and a legitimate request. At the same time an instructor who is reluctant is not necessarily a sham either, perhaps there are good reasons to be cautious. Maybe we need to consider whether or not we are talking about any extenuating circumstances.

All unusual variables aside, my bias is towards the instructors who will touch you. My usual response to "can you really use this stuff?" is the reply "sure, do anything..." Thats been enough for most people. So far, no-one who has come for instruction has either been an idiot or my superior. That isn't to say I haven't met the odd upper-body meathead who just wanted to play so-you-think-you-are-tough. The difference between these types of people has, to this point, been clear and unambiguous. Where is the problem?

I 'll go do some deep breathing now, someone has to. ;)

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[bamboo_ leaf]

"can you really use this stuff?"

i smiled as i read this. it was exactly the question I asked one of the students of my first TC teacher’s class.
I was promptly bounced off a wall with a press movement.

My first teacher was a man called Sam Kakina in Hawaii, many called what he was teaching outlaw TC. As he taught the combative aspects of the art. He was always happy to show his art.

Most teachers including myself that I’ve met are very happy to show and demonstrate the usage part of TC. In doing this I am always sure to illustrate a qualitative difference between what TC is and what it is not.

I would look at the quality of movement and understanding of the teacher’s student’s maybe more so then the teacher. Some people may be able to do but can’t pass it on. Others may not quite have it but can develop it in others.

So the most famous teacher may not always be the best, a lot depends on your level and natural ability. If you find some one you can call teacher, and he / she fits what you want and expect this is very good. I only hope that you can be the student that any teacher would be happy to have. luck in your journey.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Sum Guye]

Earth Dragon,

At least we agree that arguing your opinon is a bit ridiculous!

[EARTH DRAGON]

you are right my opinon is wrong you are better and smarter than me! you win are you happy now?

dear kevin, You said how can I distinguish between some one with genuine concerns about my skill level? I would think that if they are genuinely interested in learning from me the last thing that would do would be to challenge me! I have always been taught respect in my years of training but obviously not everyone has, but any way would you question your proffesor before you take a class to see if he is smart enough to teach you? maybe its a little different but still you get my point. I have many black belts of other styles that walk into my school based on my reputation and word of mouth so I dont think it is neccesary to walk in off the street and say show me! however as "sum guyes" dont understand that is not the case after they have joined my school and begin to learn from me, then if they question my skill level I show them! but the argument was that a good/bad instuctor will have hands with anyone that walks into his or hers school! I again do not beleive that to be true for that is not a test of a good instrutor but rather a pompus one! but as I said before that is my opinon but as "sume dumb guye" said my opinon is wrong! http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Dirt Dragon,

I was happy long before you announced that you believe I am smarter and better than you. My happiness has nothing to do with you...but thanks anyway!

I never stated your opinion was wrong- only that you were giving opinions on something that was never stated. (it was Stubbs, the person who started this thread, who originally said
he 'sparred with external teachers' to see if they were good. Then DCMSpanky agreed, then you and GLW went wild, arguing like fired up b*tches about things that neither Stubbs or DCMSpanky had posted.)

Assuming some of your students can read and have access to this website -you sure haven't shown any sense of respect,honor, patience, discipline nor even the ability to comprehend what you read.
That may make them wonder how that plays into other aspects of your knowledge and teachings.

Frankly, I abhor bickering... and usually refrain from getting into squabbles with hens. I'm not sure why I thought this would be useful but I'm glad to see it's over. (I'm pretty sure Stubbs has gotten the answer he was looking for)

For the record, I do think your opinion is wrong. And I believe you are a Commartial Artist rather than a Martial Artist. (that was a play on words... Commercial blended with Martial... it's really rather witty) It sounds like you have no interest in anyone until they've paid you to be interested. That works for some folks, but for me, that's the type of teacher I avoid.

(And yes, if I was going to seriously study under a professor in some speciality field, I would ask him a few questions to confirm my hopes he was able to deal with them. If he said "Not until you've paid me for the class" I would not be interested... but again, that's just me.)

I'm looking forward to reading future posts from you and your wacky little ultra interpretive mind.

Peace, Love and Frankenberries
Sum Guye

[EARTH DRAGON]

well again you are looking at things from a students point of view and I am looking at things from a teacher/business point of view. It kind of hard not see my side being as how you are not a school owner, but I assure you that I am far from a commercial school,actually just the opposite, but I do have the interest to make money to pay bills and support my family, So I dont bother to try to impress any one that walks in off the street looking for a fight. My tuition costs are month by month any way but as far a business owner if I take time away from my paying students to impress some guy off the street then I can not give my students the attention they deserve that how things are!
again I shouldnt have to explian my self to you but I feel like I must, and please dont tell some one their opinon is wrong! you do not have the right to say that!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

if you think I am picking on you I am not so please dont get mad, and I did not intend for this thread to be filled up with nonsense so back to the topic

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[gazza99]

As a teacher I agree with Earth dragon on this one, it is disrespectfull for a potential student to challenge a sifu. A better solution is to let them spar with one of the students if the students wants to. This will help gauge the styles effectivness a bit, but also the teaching ability of the sifu, which is the central issue anyhow. The teacher could be the next bruce lee, but if he cant teach worth anything then why learn from him?
I also believe that giving a free lesson or two could take the place of such a sparring match or challenge. After a good demo, or class it should be obvious to you if the school is worth your time. This way even if you dont like the style or the sifu you didnt walk away short any $$ or blood!
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Sum Guye]

Read through the thread and you'll
see that Dirt Dragon and GLW were the only folks brash enough to tell others their opinions (which the two had misunderstood to begin with) were 'wrong', 'horrible' and 'disrespectful'.

You'll also notice, that only Dirt Dragon and GLW mention 'fight' and 'challenge' (even going to the ridiculous extreme of suggesting that someone might "challenge a teacher during class"). They jumped to the conclusion that a skilled martial artist asking a potential teacher to "DO A LITTLE FRIENDLY SPARRING" was some sort of a death duel challenge.. to be taken up in the back alley rather than the school. And, I believe it was Dirt Dragon who said someone who did such a thing just wanted to inflate their own ego... comical, to me.
It's useless trying to clarify what's going on when Dirt Dragoober keeps reverting back to arguing stuff that only exists in his vacuous head.

But again I will state:
I believe anyone who considers themselves a Martial Arts Teacher should be WILLING to do a little FRIENDLY sparring with an interested, willing person if asked respectfully (not during a class, dimwit) AND I believe anyone who makes their living TEACHING A MARTIAL ART should be able to handle themselves in the absurd chance some creep comes in and tries to initiate non-friendly sparring.

(call me crazy, but I think a 'mechanic' should be able to fix an engine; a writer should be able to write paragraph; a doctor should be able to diagnose; a musician should be able to play music... and if someone is considering spending time and money to learn that skill from any of them asking for a small sample is in no way disrespectful.)

Having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent has gotten old. I'm tired of trying to explain the thread to Dirt Dragoob and I can't think of any other way to explain it so he can understand what was actually said.

Peace, Love and avoid money grubbing teachers,
Sum Guy

[EARTH DRAGON]

WELL SUM GUYE YOUR OPINON IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[les paul]

You wrote;
First: never did I ever say that anyone sucks! so lets get that clear!


No that's not right.... not right at all. You where referring to people who questioned other peoples skills as being somehow wrong and egotistical. Right?

And since the masters I cited did the very things you say are wrong and egotistical, we can only deduce from your comments that you did indeed thought they sucked!

Yea. I'm stretching on this and I know I sound ridiculous.....but this is how you sound to me when you think it's not right for someone to question someone’s skills (if that person is new to a school)


You wrote:
Second: the master and people that you posted are not living in today’s society!

What do you define as today's society????

Wang Shu Jin died in the early eighties and I think Chen Man-ching died slightly before him. As far as I know the Gracies are alive and kick’ in


You wrote:
if you want to get technical in the olden days one could not open a kwon with out fighting every school owner in the surrounding area first! they would burn a candle in the window to tell of a match the next day of a new sifu/new school and a old sifu/established school. If his fighting was worthy he was allowed to open!

True.... true.... but According to my Sifu they also just showed up at your door and demanded a match if they thought you weren't legit.

You wrote:
this is modern day and with law suits and insurance claims, (that one has when they are a school owner) it is hard legally to strike a person off the street that has not signed a silly waiver, how ever without the obvious leagal problems you have more to lose than just money! to be a school owner you are asking for trouble to hit some person that walks in to your place of business just to show them how tough you are!
your point of view is not from a point of owning a business so please be a little more liberal in you comments!

Wait......hold up..... Didn't you respond to my post first? Hmmmmmm..... seems you have a case of sellected memory also.....


You wrote:

also If someone feels that they need to prove something by challenging me then my school is not the place to show them my abilities, but out back in the alley I would lock, break, rip, pull and tear.

Again and again and again and again......I wasn't talking about the "old school, hey you suck! I'm going to kick your ass mantality"
Was I?


No I wasn't!

Seems you and GLW are parinoid that someone is going to come into your school and show you up.

Which will never happen if you have developed proper relationships with your students.


I understand what you are saying about running a school. Yes! In a business sense you have to watch how you proceed, but again I wasn't talking about starting a fight with someone off the street, and if you have to defend yourself in your school I don't think that there is a court of law that will find you gultiy for defending yourself at your place of buisness


By not taking the time to investigate or understand where somebody is coming from... You (yes You!!!!!! show how narrow minded you are_

heck.... your orginal response shows this.....


Let's really take a look at your argument.

You wouldn't spar with someone new who just came into your kwoon asking questions. Right?

Right! Ok now

What if he/she had a lot to offer you (as a new student, he/she was highly motivated, but needed a little proof) you would have just lost him/her to another school.


You might ask "well how am I to know if that student is motivated or not?"

That's just it, you don't!

What if that person was highly skilled and was capable of showing you things you haven't seen before?

You just lost out again! "big time"

All because of what?


I get hit by my students all the time.... they know I'm no superman.

To me martial arts are about honesty and realism, two things a true martial artist can not do without.

Also, Sum Guye Yea.... I was streching responses to my post. I was trying to take their arguments to the point of breaking. I think it was a failed attempt.


They just don't get it, and never will.

Your last post is exactly what I would have written.

Thank you for writing it. Sum guye

[Braden]

I've gotta say I'm with Sum Guye and Spanky on this one.

One of the problems here is that their opponents (read: EARTH DRAGON) are wildly exagerating what they said. They never suggested a stranger walk in off the street in the middle of the class and immediately start trying to beat the crap out of the instructor. Everyone here agrees that is completely inappropriate. All they are saying is that, as a provider of a commercial service, the onus is on you to demonstrate some level of competence in that service. For internal martial arts, this will typically require some level of contact.

Contrary to what was asserted here, this is exactly how things work in every aspect of our society. The only real difference is that many other 'commericial services' are standardized, and we put some faith into that process that alleviates some of our need to personally test the individuals we meet. In martial arts, there is no such standardization, making it all the more important to test a potential instructor!

In fact, this kind of testing is so pervasive in our society, that it occurs even outside of commercial interaction. For example, if you are a pre-graduate student seeking your supervisor for PhD or MSc works, you are likely to spend a long time 'testing' your potential supervisors. In science, the 'unit of proficiency' is the journal article. Serious pre-grad students spend a long time reading up on the journal articles to determine the skill level of their potential advisors. How many are there? In what publications? Are they included in major review papers? What is the quality in each article? This is a very good analogy to martial arts instruction, as (in the west) you work like an apprentice to your supervisor, leaning him by copying him (more or less); the teaching process is very similar to internal martial arts. However, there's one difference: the supervisor is paying YOU! Yet you still test him! Well, the 'unit of proficieny' in martial arts is being able to defend yourself. So it seems like some sort of test of this IS appropriate in our society.

What this entails depends very much on the situation. Obviously, it's very important for both parties to go about this in a polite, even friendly, and mutually conveniant manner. (ie. showing up in the middle of a class and demanding satisfaction won't cut it) Also, the skill level of the prospective student is very important. An intermediate level student should be able to get a good sense of the instructor's skill level through push hands or a similar exercise. An advanced student may, I think, legitimately ask for something more. There are people with 30+ years of martial arts experience still looking for new teachers (I hope to be one of them some day!). A beginner on the other hand, would probably have no idea how to judge internal martial arts proficiency. In past threads, I've suggested (and others have elsewhere) some simple tests that a beginner can conduct on a prospective teacher to at least determine of the teacher has some skill. I think that, not only would this be appropriate, but that it would impress most good teachers, as it would show you've done your homework and you're legitimately interested in what s/he's doing.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Im just about sick of trying to make my point with the one tract thoughts and the one sided veiw in a many point of view subject! all of you have told me that the way I conduct my business is wrong so why bother? In my 19 years of training have I never heard of such disreseptful allegations to challenge some ones skill level by walking into a school and think you have the right to say; before you teach me can you put up your hands to let me know if youre good enough! If some one said that to my master he would laugh, smile and say come back tomorrow to busy today! that would be his humble way of denying that person from learning anything!Im from the old school where you had to prove your worth to be taught! its not about $ its about character
Again this is the way I was taught and the way I feel and no one on this board can tell me that I am wrong! so again you dont have to agree but why tell some one that what the do is not right just becuse you dont agree! frankly I could care less if you thought I was good or not! But asking to play before you pay is never good business! and I say that from a business and school owners point of view! braden, sum guy, spanky do you have schools? If you dont than you cant understand where Im comming from so why bother?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Earth Dragon is tired of talking to one track minds that can't see another side of the issue? You break me up man, do you read your own responses?

I make a point of not being harsh in this forum, but you display as closed a mind as any I've seen in this place. Hippocracy is bad Wu De, especially in a pedagogue. You have an opinion that you flog relentlessly and far more narrowly than the people you argue with. You seem to feel that any question of qualification is a challenge, an opinion you have elevated to the level of doctrine, leaving no room for inquiry. I said "genuine concerns" and you extract "challenge," odd. I for one just can't see the world as so monochromatic. There is some middle ground between blind trust and throwing down the gauntlet. Does it cost so much face to acknowledge that compromise is even possible? It doesn't mean that you have to give up your opinion, just make room for another one. I tried to make some space for you in that light in my first post.

As for you question about professors, I did, in fact, interview professors during my university education. I'm not spending that kind of money and just trusting them to all be equally qualified. I chose teachers who had good lineages (philosophy from a student of Bertrand Russel, and anthropology from the son of Oliver Keesing, founder of the anthro department at Stanford university and collegue of Margaret Mead and Louis Kroeber). I was polite and respectful and took no bull**** from them. No-one seemed offended by my questions, yet any of them had the power to make my studies at that university very uncomfortable. Life is to short to waste on mediocraty.

Cheers Bamboo Leaf, glad it brought a smile.
Well said Braden.
Sum Guye, I sure hope I don't draw your satire any time soon. Peace.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Sum Guye]

Thanks for seeing through all the B.S. and reading what was happening in this thread.

[This message was edited by Sum Guye on 09-19-01 at 12:34 PM.]

[Sum Guye]

in your last post you stated:
"all of you have told me that the way I conduct my business is wrong so why bother? "

Where did anyone post anything in anyway close to that? I can't find it.

In answer to your previous post;
"...please don't think I'm picking on you, don't get mad" all I can say is, even if you weren't so comical in your delusions of adequacy I wouldn't get mad. Heck, you couldn't pick on me if your life depended on it.

I travel to your area from time to time, one of these days I'll observe a class and if you seem to have any skill at all (which, at this point, I find hard to imagine) I will ask you to push hands after you've finished with your class.

I'm looking forward to it.

[blacktaoist]

Im with don't call me spanky and sum guye on this subject. I see nothing wrong with testing an martial art instructor after they teach they class. To my knowledge, this is the best why to find out if the instructor have any real martial art skill. I live and teach BAGUAZHANG in New York City Harlem.(up town)I have people from all kinds of styles come see me, some are good fighters, some are not! Im not a BAGUAZHANG master, but i am a fighter that teach BAGUA combat. So when people come to me, they come to learn and train combat Bagua, not new age bull****!!
Most of the time i push hands and even spar with these people, some are very good friends of mines now. My opinon is you know if a person is out to hurt you or make you lose face.
You should be able to feel they intent. Expand your field of awareness(subconscious awareness)These are senses that all real internal boxers have, senses which allow you to perceive a person intent.(metaphysical)
My BAGUA TEACHER always told me,search out a skilled man with natural ability, a good teacher fighting ability is not shown in forms and many arrange techniques like people teach today. If a martial art teacher just show you forms and techniques and can't apply it free style, then my friends he is a fraud.(bad teacher)Correct instruction makes for practicing true martial arts. Real martial art teachers don't mind to compare or show they maritial skills with other people or experts. Bottom line try to avoid frauds,god knows there are a lot of them out there.
Earth Dragon, in one of your post, you said there is no throwing in push hands. No disrespect to you,but there is throwing and even sweeping in Tui shou(push hands)There are many different levels of training in Tui shou, not just off balance your opponeent. The purpose of Tui Shou is to cultivate the sticking and listening energy needed in self defence. What a person is trying to do is conden electromagnetic energy into they body's electrocellular membranes in order to make they body a living magnet. Tui shou is some deep ****!(LOL)Any way when i learn push hands from william c.c. chen, he teach controlling and locking , throwing and sweeping, even single and double arm striking. Any way don't mean to get off the subject, but one thing i can say i saw with my own eyes, and know of good fighters from other styles that have came to William C.C. Chen to test his skill and he beat them all. Bottom line real teachers with skill don't mind if a person come to test or compare martial skills.
They have nothing to hide.

When you see righteousess it should make you brave. You should be benevolent, but not be humble.-BAGUAZHANG Master SUN XIKUN
Always keep the tao real-BLACKTAOIST

[EARTH DRAGON]

In regards to your post saying "Earth Dragon, in one of your post, you said there is no throwing in push hands. No disrespect to you,but there is throwing and even sweeping in Tui shou(push hands)There are many different levels of training in Tui shou, not just off balance your opponeent. The purpose of Tui Shou is to cultivate the sticking and listening energy needed in self defence. What a person is trying to do is conden electromagnetic energy into they body's electrocellular membranes in order to make they body a living magnet. Tui shou is some deep ****!(LOL)Any way when i learn push hands from william c.c. chen, he teach controlling and locking , throwing and sweeping, even single and double arm striking"
Not meaning to start an argument, I have had to many this on this thread already, but anyways I would just like to point out that I have never heard of throwing or sweeping or locking in tui sao.
But to help me make my point Here are the offical rules of tui sao.

All push hands competitors must wear short-sleeved shirts. One match consists of two 60 second rounds with a 15 second break in between rounds. Opponents face each other and each places their foot on the center mark. When prepared to begin, they make contact with the back of the right or left wrist. The referee gives the command to begin at which time the competitors are required to perform a a minimum of 2 revolutions before initiating any techniques. Time is suspended while the referee calls for a point and verification and announces their decision and for consultation or emergency situations. Points are awarded to the competitor whose opponent has made an error or committed a personal violation or a serious personal violation. Points may be awarded for technical violations.

Attack areas: Attacks may be made within restricted areas of the body: from below the base of the neck to above the groin or bladder area. Pushing the neck, head, bladder area, hip joint, or leg is illegal.(which makes sweeping impossible)

Stepping: Competitors may take a step or steps forward or backward, with either the front or the back foot, but may not reverse the stance, i.e., the front foot must stay forward. Competitors must keep to the orientation of the center line; they may not step to the side to defend or gain an advantage in pushing.

Violations: Points are awarded to the opponent of the competitor who committed the violation. However the opponent will receive 2 points if one commits a serious personal violation. Disqualification may be enforced for one serious violation and must be disqualified for 2 serious violations. The referee in consultation with the judges may disqualify a competitor.

Errors: Loss of balance and endangering oneself.

Personal Violations
1. Using techniques excessive in strength
2. Grabbing the opponents clothes
3.Double grabbing (gripping with both hands)
4.Holding on to prevent loss of balance
5. Attacking an illegal target area
6.Reversing the stance to gain advantage
if you look at #3 you will find that you can not grab with two hands therfore how could possibly throw a person with one hand?

Technical Violations
1.Not following instructions of the referee
2.Not completing the mandatory revolutions
3.Receiving coaching during the round
Serious Personal Violations
1.Striking, hitting, punching
2.Using the head to attack
3.Using the legs, knees, or feet to attack
4.Twisting the joints (grappling or chin na)
5.Using pressure points
6.Pulling hair or beard
7.Attacking the groin area
8.Using any technique determined to cause injury
9.Unsportsman-like conduct

Points are awarded to the opponent of the competitor who committed the violation. However, the opponent will receive 2 points if one commits a serious personal violation as listed above.

Disqualifications: Competitors may be disqualified for one serious violation and must be disqualified for 2 serious violations. A competitor may also be disqualified by the referee in consultation with the judges.


Moving Push Hands

The competition area will consist of 2 circles. The inner circle will be 15 feet in diameter while the outer circle will be 21 feet in diameter. Marks in the center of the circles will indicate the starting point, which will be the same as for the restricted step push hands.

After 3 revolutions with the hands, each competitor may begin moving and proceed until told to stop by the referee. There will be one round of 90 seconds PUSHING TIME. The clock will stop when the referee stops to obtain scoring from the judges.

Score will be awarded based upon infractions or mistakes from an opponent. Points will be awarded for the same infractions as with the restricted step push hands expect, of course, competitors are now allowed to move at will.

1 point: Awarded when one's opponent loses balance, uses excessive force, forcefully holds on, double grabbing and all other infractions listed in the restricted step push hands. The referees and judges shall especially watch out for holding. In addition, points are also awarded when one's opponent steps or is forced out of the circles.

2 points: Awarded when the opponent steps ON or outside the inner circle.

3 points: Awarded when ANY part of the body touches or falls outside these circles.
The same scoring procedure as for the restricted step push hands shall be used. As with restricted step regulations, the referee shall stop the match upon seeing struggling by both competitors and no points are awarded.
so agin with reading what I have posted It would be illegal to sweep or lock and impossible to throw! unless you can throw someone with one hand and without grabbing!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[HuangKaiVun]

Don't study with any instructor who would disrespect another professional martial artist the way people here are - no matter how good he THINKS his skill is.

We all have different methods, which results in different techniques. It takes a lot of skill and training to truly appreciate that.

It is the hallmark of a NOVICE INSTRUCTOR who would call another professional martial artist "mentally deranged".

[Braden]

Earth Dragon - I think he was referring to push hands as a training tool, rather than push hands as a competition format. The former is for learning about fighting, the latter is for... I guess entertainment. At advanced levels, all manner of techniques can become incorporated into it's practice. As a side note, there are plenty of throws that don't require grabbing, let alone two-handed grabbing, eg. aikido's iriminage.

[Shooter]

This just keeps getting better...or worse...

Earth Dragon, your last post hints at the reason why Tai Chi Chuan is losing its fighting heritage. All these ideas as to what is "official," "orthodox," "auhtentic," Tai Chi. Ridiculous...More pedantics and politics...arrrgh

Tai Chi is learned by beginners as a grappling system. Albeit, a very 'soft' grappling system. Just because the official rules that you recognize are written as such, doesn't mean that's the extent of how one should train. I've been saying for years that push-hands isn't much different than the stand-up phase of Greco/Roman and freestyle wrestling. At least that's how I was taught and how I train. Our jacketed push-hands isn't much different than Judo/BJJ. We learn to fajing in real-time against resisting partners during our push-hands, and sometimes, we even go to the ground *GASP* Our Tai Chi san-shuo (free-sparring) is identical to Vale Tudo.

When I have visitors come in "off the street" to check it out, myself and my students don't miss a beat. We just train the way we always train and when it comes time to spar and push, our guest gets to see what Tai Chi TRAINING is like (they don't get the REAL, and I don't show it off). The sparring is more than most people can handle. We have an inside joke among our regular members...non-MAs visitors who want to see what these wimpy Tai Chi guys are doing last about an hour and almost always ask what time it is about 10 minutes before they leave. We usually never see them again. :)

I have BJJers Judo players, kickboxers, wrestlers, NHBers, etc. visit my school all the time. Many of them attend our regular Sunday open-door training sessions. We're the only NHB training facility for 300 miles in any direction. I'm not trying to sound like a badass...I don't even like the sport, but I'm glad its there and my school has hosted 3 tourneys in the past. It's a necessary extension of the training though and if my students want to compete, they're entirely in their element when they do because they train like that constantly.

I tell my students that they can play games all they want. If they want to stop playing games and learn Tai Chi Chuan for what it is, they have to internalize the training through learning and practicing form, and acquiring good Chi Kung skills. They have to soften their push-hands and refine their sensitivity. They have to keep their shoes on and wear their street clothes when they spar and train. They have wrap their mind and awareness around what it is they're doing and why they're doing it. They have to train outside on concrete, gravel, grass, ice, in the rain, snow, blah blah blah.

If I see someone directing people to their website to view the photos of them putting a steel wire through their leg as a demo of their advanced Chi Kung, I would think they'd be very receptive to demonstrating their lesser skills of fighting and their understanding of the combative elements of their art. If anything, I'd say that behavior echos your own comments about being a show-off.

As for "people off the street,"... They're always easy to get along with. Sometimes a little exuberant, but never a problem as far as attitude goes. I think a lot of it has to do with the way people are treated. If you meet their request with a defensive demeanor or as a superior, you create barriers. It's only human nature to test the resolve and extent of those barriers. If you greet them receptively and accomodate their choices as to what it is they'd like to explore, an environment of mutual effort makes for a fun and productive training session.


As always with Tai Chi, no easy answers. Any system that affords its practitioners such latitude and freedom is bound to contrast greatly from one player's ideas to the ideas of another. There is no right way and no wrong way. Just the way that works for you. One need only look at the JKD guys and how they're unable to define the idea that they base their own training on. It has definition, but it eludes the ability of any one person to fully define it.

Tai Chi's founding masters weren't without this conundrum when they wrote their respective treatises and songs, and we're blessed through their efforts to do so. Every word is essential.

Peace

[Sum Guye]

*on the third or fourth rotation
*I can throw you with one hand,
*while only stepping forward or backward.
*(I'm not sure of the size of the ring,
(I only need to step as far as you'll back up).

Those rules don't say anything against throwing, you'd eat some EARTH DRAGON.

If you only study competition rules push hands, you'll never be able to handle and active opponent who just keeps coming back from your pushes.
AND IF THAT'S ALL YOU'VE FIGURED OUT IN 19 YEARS, I CAN'T WAIT TO PUSH HANDS (competition rules are fine by me) WHEN I PUSH HANDS WITH YOU

[EARTH DRAGON]

if you read the rules you can plainly see that it would be almost impossible to throw unless of coarse you can throw without grabbing or lifing your feet without a sweep! but then again we are talking about sum guye! maybe its different for you! you say you live in LA but you travel to bffalo a lot, would you consider stopping by my school so I can show you "in a freindly way" what I have learned in 19 years!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

again you misunderstand what you read (you're amazing!)

I can throw you without grabbing your legs or sweeping your feet.

I do live in L.A.... I travel to your area "from time to time"..... if it were "alot" I would've said "alot" or "often" or "frequently"

your offer to visit comes after my offer to drop by sometime... and yes, again, I look forward to seeingin a "friendly" way what you've learned in 19 years.

read a little slower... maybe that will help.

[EARTH DRAGON]

could you please explain how you can throw someone without grabbing them. our system has the art of shui chiao (chinese wrestling) and in all the 40 throws there is not one that does not require you to grab or have a hold of your opponent, and if you read the post correctly it is not say grabbing the feet as you stated. So please explian the technique in which you would use.PS if you live in LA please feel free to stop by my masters school grand master Shyun Kwan Long, and ask him about me,he can give you a little history and maybe then you wont think Im such a bad guy! 25461 alicia pkwy suite B laguna hills LA

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Braden]

ED - Depends how you define throws. Alot of people think of throws as picking someone up and tossing them. However, martially, the definition of throws tends to include a wider variety of techniques. Technically, any technique where you steal the balance of your opponent, misalign his structure, then project him to the ground can be seen as a throw. There are a multitude of ways of doing this that don't require grabbing.

One example would be 'fierce tiger leaps from cave' from bagua. Imagine I am standing normally. Opponent facing me throws a "my left"/"his right" jab to my floating ribs area. I extend my right leg to the forward and right corner, while extending my right arm up to contact the underside of his arm with the top of mine, aligning my elbow to direct his force to my rear right corner. As I shift my weight forward onto my extended right leg and into a bow stance, my right forearm rotates up so that the upper arm stays where it is, my elbow is sunk, my fingers and hands point to the heavens, and my palm faces me (ie. shifting weight, rotating waist). My opponent will be twisted to the side, misaligning his shoulders and hips, and giving me his "my left"/"his right" outside door. I prefer to do this technique very close, at body-to-body distance. From here, I can execute a smooth shoulder stroke (or indeed, push) and send him tumbling to the ground.

Another example is the hip displacement (see 'effortless combat throws' by tim cartmell - which you should see anyway, since it's awesome). Which is very similar to iriminage from aikido which I mentioned earlier.

[Sum Guye]

you said 'Please' and you weren't the least bit snotty. (I never thought you were a bad guy,
just terrible at comprehension)

I could explain several throws that don't require grabbing- (the rules said "no two hand grabbing" clearly, grabbing with one hand is okay according to the rules you listed, with exception of grabbing to maintain ones own balance.)- but I'd rather show them to you when I make it out to your city...don't worry, my travel schedule is booked through the end of the year, but one of these days I'll pop in to say hello.

(If on the occasion of my visit, you request 'no grabbing' at all; since it's your school, I'll abide by your rules.... I know a couple of throws from Tai Ji that use no grabbing, which are more difficult to achive... but the fall they cause are equally more difficult to take.

As long as you are under 280lbs I can throw you (cause your body to meet the floor) without two handed grabbing...without sweeping...and without causeing you any harm (provided you know how to break-fall) and only stepping forward or backward. If you're over 280lbs you're likely to hurt yourself during your fall... and with someone of that size I may have to circle step which seems to be against those silly rules.

Thanks for finally showing some civility.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Before I add to this I have to say that I find the idea that Tuishou is competative is not high-level and is the second greatest drag on internal arts today. To elevate a drill intended to test structure and sensitivity and make it into a sport is to take these arts and lower then to the level of Tae-Kwon-Do and Sport Karate.

Throwing without grabbing is not too difficult. When you are connected many opportunities arise to take advantage of people's natural instinct to flinch. When a person is taken to the point that they cannot comfortably receive force they tend to lock-up their tissue and begin to struggle to save themselves. They become very vulnerable if the joints they hold onto are shoulders or hips. Simply turning your structure and spiralling the arms often sends these people flying, or you can simply load and release before you spiral. Their stiffnes provides the levers needed. You don't need to grab a simple level to move it, you only need to apply pressure on one side.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[EARTH DRAGON]

I agree to an extent but hear me out! in tai chi there are many applications that you simply lower your center of gravity move into your oppnents higher center of gravity and simply stand up or open your arms and shift your weight forward which causes your opponent to lose his balance and fall, using nothing but your legs or your trunk! however when playing pushing hands it is very very hard to exucte this or any technique since your opponent is keeping aware of his center and not giving you an opening. It is hard to stay relaxed and move quicker than your opponent and still not allowing him an opening in your defense. May be I have not pushed hands as many times as all of you but I find it hard to stay defensive while Im trying to be offensive, which makes throwing almost impoosible. granted as braden said their are many techniques that use a throw without grabbing we have plenty but trying to throw while pushing hands seems out of the question when both parties are so rooted.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[blacktaoist]

Earth dragon, the rules you post are push hands Tournament rules. My post reply to you was about real Tui shou training, not sport push hands. From 1995 to 1998 i used to participated in push hands Tournaments, fixed step and moving step push hands, I was push hand champion at the 2nd pan american wushu championship in Toronto, canada. the organizing chairman was sifu sunny tang.
I know the rules very well, most of the time people that follow them so called rules, end up wrestling trying to keep they root or trying to stop the other person from pushing them from out the circle. Sport push hands have nothing to do with real martial push hands. There are no rules on the streets!!!
Martial push hands have throwing and sweeping, controlling and locking, in BAGUAZHANG push hands (Kun Shou) many BAGUA students follow the Eight fighting abilities, if they are I-Ching lovers(lol)
The eight abilities are the characteristics and personalities of the I-Ching which can be used when push hands or fighting....they are:
throwing,sweeping,hooking,pushing,thrusting,pullin g,twisting and knocking.
Martial push hands training develop a combination of striking, locking and throwing to maximize the BAGUA and TAI CHI student fighting potential.
Like i said there is more to Tui Shou then a Tournament rule book. Most people that participated in push hands competition that i been to never get hurt,they are having fun wrestling LOL. PEACE BLACKTAOIST

[EARTH DRAGON]

My fault I thought we were talking about competition. I teach mantis so I dont know that much about fighting with other styles. I would love to be able to fight using my tai chi but dont feel confident enough to rely on it! I feel much more comfortable using mantis Ive been doing it for a long time. I was only aware of tui sao when My shr fu invited the national tawinese tai chi team from taipei to my city for a demonstration, it was tournamet style so That is what I was talking about, as far as push hands goes.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Guitarius]

I have had the privilege to be a student of more than a few martial arts instructors. Even a couple of really good ones! I've also been a teacher, and taught music lessons, etc so I feel like I can definitely add to this post.

A good teacher is one who teaches students to teach themselves. If said teacher can instill a sense of inspiration, and impart a thirst for knowledge, I think everything else will work itself out.

A good teacher isn't afraid to restate the obvious, and be truthful to his students, even if it's something they don't want to hear. A good teacher will be insistent upon helping his students build a solid foundation wherein they
can explore wherever their interests take them.

A bad teacher is someone who knows it all. Someone who isn't a student themselves, will likely not be such a great teacher. Of course, who am I to judge?

By the way Shooter, I've been having nightmares of you and me going at it in a Grande Prairie leisure center parking lot! Possibly fueled by the rumors of a couple of guys with swords in the parking lot the other week! hehehehehe

[GLW]

Guitarius,

is that Grand Prairie, Tx....?

[Sum Guye]

just for all the folks who've followed this thread, here's what Earth Dragon posted yesterday in response to someone who said "check out this site, it seems cool to me"

Earth Dragon's reply:
"what about this site do you find good? it costs money to be a member and you cant simply veiw the contents of the site! may be after you pay money you get something, but I dont see a lot of people paying money before you can view the material. just my opinon"

[Vasanth]

You said:
"I have been a sifu of ba bu tang lang and shyun tai chi chuan for over 7 years now and never has someone walked in to my kwon and disspresected me by asking me to spar them to see if I was a good teacher! that is a horrible thing you said that if teachers dont do this they have no business teaching martial arts! I would think that a teacher that stoops to the level of sparring a person off the street has no business teaching!"

You're dead wrong. This is how it has been done in China for AGES, and this is how its still done. It has nothing to do with respect. You open up a school in China, you'll be challenged by the local masters. It's customary.

I dare you to open up a school in China.

No.. really.. I DARE you.

That's why you don't have lame hacks in silly chinese pajamas teaching Kung Fu. They all get their asses kicked from the onset, and thus don't have a chance to pollute with their wannabe martial art.

It's too bad things aren't the same in North America. I think you'd see the quality of martials arts take a sharp increase, and a few schools would certainly close down.

*cough* ;)

[Kaitain(UK)]

if some guy walks in off the street and wants to test my instructor why would he bother? He has nothing to prove to someone he doesn't know..

After 3 months Taiji training I started sparring with my instructor and he knocked down in about 3 seconds - he could have done that to me when I walked in but I needed to earn his respect before he would spar with me - he has too much to risk to be fighting every wannabe that walks in. In this age of 'comebacks' even a victory guarantees nothing - slashed tires, assault on students etc. If the purpose of sparring is to convince a student that it works then that's fine - if it is to prove to a stranger that it works then I see little value in it.

I've seen some drugged up guy stagger in to the childrens class and run at my instructor when his back was turned - he threw the guy on his backside and the guy ran away. He could have really hurt him but he didn't need to. The kids learned that temperance/control is vital to proper martial skill and useage. I learned the same.

I don't have a problem either way with teachers - as long as they have something to teach me then I will study.

The usual argument is - do you learn boxing from the guy who can knock you out or the guy who trains good fighters? I don't see being able to batter someone as any sort of validation of their ability to teach those skills.

Equally if they don't demonstrate skill in the class environment then you should probably move on - any good instructor can demonstrate what he is teaching.

I think it is beneath an instructor to 'prove' his art against just anyone who walks in - is that teaching any sort of 'way'?

Internally speaking I have no problem with someone coming in and asking to push hands to 'feel' what is on offer - I would expect it to be with a student first. If the student is easily dominated (through correct principles) then the instructor should push with them. If he is dominated then he has proven superior skill in pushing hands. I would say that this carries more weight internally than externally - after all the skills are meant to be timeless.

It's a hard one to judge tbh - my instructors are all of the opinion that they have nothing to prove. They aren't interested - and it isn't through lack of ability, just lack of interest.

As a last point - I know some of you are aware of what our arts are actually for. Sparring is great for building skills at sticking and closing etc - but it isn't the real thing. How then do you prove your art effectively without seriously injuring the questioning person - can they understand that the light slap to the neck and the elbow touching their chest are indicative of crippling hits? You certainly can't afford to use them properly...

I don't know if it's the same in Chine or not - it'd be great to walk into every lame-ass Taiji school that has 'taiji joy/think of a rainbow QiGong' and smack the crap out of the instructor. Shows how far I have to go spiritually :)

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[EARTH DRAGON]

You're dead wrong. This is how it has been done in China for AGES, and this is how its still done. It has nothing to do with respect. You open up a school in China, you'll be challenged by the local masters. It's customary.

Do you live in china? have you ever been to china? or are you speaking from something you have heard from somebody else? I thought so.

I dare you to open up a school in China.

No.. really.. I DARE you.

No really I dont live in china why would I open a school there? have you also heard what they do in texas? lets get real here

That's why you don't have lame hacks in silly chinese pajamas teaching Kung Fu. They all get their asses kicked from the onset, and thus don't have a chance to pollute with their wannabe martial art.

Are you saying this about me? I hope not for you dont even know me!!!! nor have you been to any one of the schools across the US that are in our federation! so dont fly off the handle and get yourself into something that you might regret!
just for the record I teach (ba bu tang lang chuan) a very highly respected praying mantis system with direct lineage to me. and also Wu stlye tai chi chuan also with direct lineage to me, the founder Wu ching Chan exchanged entire systems with my shrfu's shrfu master Wei Xiao Tung may be youve heard of him? So I hope your not saying that 8step praying mantis is a wannabe art! for that would show true ignorance on your part and agin prove that arguing with someone that has little knowledge of what there talking about is a complete waste of time.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[gazza99]

"It's too bad things aren't the same in North America. I think you'd see the quality of martials arts take a sharp increase, and a few schools would certainly close down"

So you would rather have laws that allow others to assault people freely? Id rather let the fakes have their Mcdojo's -and ignore them.
Kaitain has already made every point I was goint to make, so perhaps you should re-read his post and give it some thought. If someone goes around challenging instructors eventually they are going to get killed/hospitalized or win a nice prison sentence.
Regards,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[EARTH DRAGON]

kaitian where have you been? I have tryed and tryed to point out to these people that it is a no win situation all by myself, and with one arm tied behind my back until I was blue in the face! thank god for gary who also feels the same way but up until now my argument fell on deaf ears. I am just glad to hear that some one out there understands what is right and what is not so right, maybe now they will understand! thank you

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Stubbs who started this thread by saying:

"when i was deciding what kung fu teacher to go with it was easy, i sparred them, looked at their forms, concepts, and how i got along with them"

is headed for the hospital or prison time?

In my opinion, no one who agreed with Stubbs on 'sparring' with a perspective teacher sounded like thugs who want to hurt anyone. To me, they all sound like folks who want hands-on verification that a perspective teacher has better skill than them.

It's simply two different ways of thinking. If any one ever asks you to spar- you'd say 'no' they'd say 'ok' and they'd leave. But in your heads you've built this innocent request into some death struggle duel to the end... you guys crack me up.

And Earth Dragon, I owe you an apology. In this thread it does appear that I cast the first 'personal attack' by stating that "you type very well for having such an extreme mental disability"
I was frustrated by your persistence at reading something horrid into something simple and jumping all over it as if your opinion is the only opinion that could possibly be correct. It was rude of me, I apologize. It is still frustrating but also wildly amusing.

Personally, I'm not a violent person.. not even a physically imposing person, but if/when I decide to persue another teacher we will spar before I spend a dime on them. But don't worry, it wont be you, gary or kaitain... (no need to freak out with one hand tied behind your back till your face turns blue)... you've made it painfully obvious that would be a waste of my time.

Stubbs, I'm dying to know what you think of all this.

[Kaitain(UK)]

John Ding and Ip Tai Tak don't need to prove anything to some putz who walks in off the street - I'm sure they'll lose sleep over the loss of such an open-minded and objective student

Have you ever sparred a complete stranger? I have - some self-proclaimed kickboxer came into the gym and asked to spar - he ended up losing it and charging me in blind rage - I had to hurt him to protect myself. He never came back and I felt like **** for having to do it.

So I wouldn't do it - however they appear to be you know nothing about them. Do they have self-control? Can they protect themselves at all? What are they hoping to learn?

So if you walked into my school and asked my instructor to spar he would tell you no - he'd explain why and he'd explain that you can watch him spar with his students. Then he'd explain that sparring isn't remotely representative of the art and show you applications on a student attacking at full pace. It's then your choice if you choose to join or not - he's shown you:
a)he spars his students
b)he thinks sparring demonstrates nothing about the art
c)he can teach and demonstrate the Yang side of the art

That's what I saw when I joined, and that's why I stayed.

You seem to misunderstand the point - you know what you want to get out of the encounter. But the person you ask to spar doesn't know that, does he? You know it isn't a life threatening death-fight - but how does the person you want to spar know that?

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kaitain(UK)]

"when i was deciding what kungfu teacher to go with it was easy, i sparred them, looked at their forms, concepts, and how i got along with them.

but with tai chi, for me it seems harder because a tai chi/ chi kung(qigong) technique is designed to work for you internaly, rather than externaly on an opponant."

So try not to misrepresent someone eh?

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

you've got to be joking!
That's all blag. Blagitty blag, blag.

That only shows that Stubbs had a misunderstanding of what 'internal martial arts' are about... but rather than clear THAT up... it's all been a pecking fest over the 'sparring' he mentioned doing with his perspective External teachers.
And your summation that sparring demonstrates nothing about the art shows that you (and/or your teachers have the same misunderstanding).

There's nothing to argue and nothing to prove.
We have different philosophies about life and paths of learning.

However, I beg you to show where I misrepresented anyone... and I'll break it down for you in simpler terms so you can more easily follow the flow of the thread, eh. I haven't misquoted nor misrepresented anyone in the slightest, eh. :rolleyes:

[Sum Guye]

Would John Ding and Ip Tai Tak study under a teacher tomorrow without first testing that teacher's skill? (as I've said all along, I'm talking about good ol' fashioned FRIENDLY sparring... even just non-cooperative push hands)

Go ask them and let me know.

[Kaitain(UK)]

sparring is not full contact - it shows nothing about the art itself

if you watch someone sparring you don't see what the art is for -

The art is used where I learn it like this (simple scenario):

a throws punch combination, right lead jab; b sticks to first punch with ward off, takes outside left line (preventing any follow up from other arm), strikes neck with right cutting palm strike (usually knocks you out if done properly), elbow strike to ribs with left, right elbow strike to chest. Knee or Low line front kick to face as he falls. Fight is over. I haven't covered the kicks to the knee on the way in or what you'd do to someone on the ground if necessary. It's all nasty.

You can't do that in sparring. Hence sparring demonstrates nothing - it teaches a lot in terms of sticking and so forth but it shows nothing.

Stubbs misrepresentation etc etc

You took part of Stubbs' post that supported your argument and neglected the part that said 'but in taiji..' which showed that Stubbs thought of the two areas as different. Sure it shows that he misunderstands the internal arts - but that doesn't negate the fact that it puts different meaning to his post.

"There's nothing to argue and nothing to prove." - all you do is argue, I've yet to see you debate your view on a single thread. The point of a forum is to discuss - you seem fixated with shouting people down and insulting people and their teachers.

Last of all - you consistently fail to address one of my points - I don't think anyone here is a thug - what I'm saying is that the prospective instructor doesn't know what their disposition is and as such there is no onus on whether or not he spars with them. So I'm not attacking the people who want to do this - I'm defending/justifying the instructors who refuse to do it.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kaitain(UK)]

JD is 1st disciple of ITT who is 1st disciple of Master Yang Sau Chung - Yang style

If they were to go elsewhere it would be fascinating as it would be outside of Yang style - I'll ask John Ding but I know his answer "I can see what they have". He wouldn't need to push hands or anything. Just by watching the form they can tell what is and isn't there. The form is the source of everything else - if that is incorrect then nothing else matters.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

and how, exactly, does the paragraph containing his misunderstanding of internal arts make a different meaning to his post?

[Kaitain(UK)]

without explicitly excluding taiji as seperate to Kung-fu the meaning comes across as

'When I looked for a kung-fu school it was easy - I sparred, watched their forms etc etc' - Kung-fu is an all encompassing term for CMA, so Taiji is implicitly included in that statement

when you specifically exclude Taiji it sounds more like:
"When I looked for an external CMA school it was easy because I sparred, watched forms etc etc - but with Taiji it isn't so easy as there is more to it than just external (visible) useage/application"

Hence I felt it was misrepresenting Stubbs as someone who walks into any Kung-fu school and wants to spar the instructor. When he was asking advice because his belief appears to be that that is no way to find a good taiji instructor.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

I thought he was saying:

"when I studied external... it was easy, I sparred, looked at their forms... how I got along with them... But Tai Ji seems different because it is designed to work for you (the practicioner) internally... and not(work) against an opponent"

My take on that was; Stubbs thought external is for fighting... Internal is only for happy organs and longer life...not fighting, so how does one (stubbs) know when a teacher is good or not.

Then someone replied that there's not really a difference... meaning external arts AND internal arts are both 'martial' (designed to work against an opponent).... and that a good teacher probably wouldn't mind sparring.

Then, Earth Dragon and GLW went wild taking that guys opinion way out of context and starting this whole mess, which you and I are continuing right now (2:18am my time).

Me- I believe Internal arts are for fighting.
I believe a skilled internal artist can pull off techniques in sparring (I do it regularly).
And I know how to ask a teacher if we can spar without him/her worrying about one of us ending up dead/hospitalized or in prison.

I guess I'm special like that.

Good night.
Sum Guye

[EARTH DRAGON]

first apology accepted! again I do not wish to get into a ****ing match by stating each others opinon.
It was dont call me spanky that said If an instructor won't cross hands/sparr with you, walk away.....most of the time they are not teaching the martial side.
then chris mickinny said At the VERY least, ask to see a demonstration of the combat applications of several Taiji postures. If the instructor is unable or unwilling to provide such a demonstration, I suggest you look elsewhere.

then after some other posts you came back with !!!!!
!Earth Dragon, you type very well for having such an extreme mental disability. You quoted what I said verbatim- but then ranted on about something I never said... it's kinda funny. (D-C-M-Spanky
seems to suffer a similar affliction... reads one
thing, takes it to a ridiculous extreme).
What I said was... "if you're not WILLING to do a little friendly sparring you've got no business
teaching a MARTIAL ART." (I'm not suggesting every teacher should FIGHT every student, nor that
every student should FIGHT every teacher at all.
'Willing' and 'Martial' are the opperative terms
in my sentence).

so you see why this was uncalled for to? thats why I got so mad at you. I dont mind disscussing peoples different views, thats what makes the world unique! what I do mind is when some one jumps into a thread and says things like your stupid and your opinons is wrong! do you now see how bad that sounds?
but yet you said this to katian
However, I beg you to show where I misrepresented anyone... and I'll break it down for you in simpler terms so you can more easily follow the flow of the thread, eh. I haven't misquoted nor misrepresented anyone in the slightest, eh.
you seem to think that people are not as smart as you! from your words you belittle people by saying if you cant understand it it will talk baby talk! do you now see how that makes you sound? again this is not meant to sound harsh but if you read over your posts again maybe it will shed a little light on the subject and you can understand where Im comming from. you can excersize your opinon without personal attacks on people and they will take you more seriously and your opinon will be listen to more closely! thank you again for your apology it meant a lot!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

"-then after some other posts you came back with-"

it's all the 'stuff' contained in those 'other posts' posts that lead to me realizing you have a mental disability. I was frustrated at your inability to comprehend clearly what you read. Maybe I should word that differently; your ability to read offensive suggestions where none have been made. (I've been reading your posts for a LONG time before ever even signing up on this board... it's not just in this thread, you do it often). You take offense where not is intended and it got me riled when you turned your ineptitude towards my opinion being stated to someone else.

The thing I find funny about it is that my suggestions to Stubbs for checking out a new teacher were exactly as follows:
*Observe a class.
*Take note of how students respond to a teacher.
*Take note of how/what the teacher teaches.
*Does he/she have something you'd like to learn.
(if an IMA class has mats and teaches applications for the form's movements- that's a good sign.)

Did I suggest sparring or challenging a teacher?
Nope. But I did, however, say that a martial arts teachers shouldn't be affraid to do a little friendly sparring with anyone who's eager and willing to spar.... or else they should drop the 'martial' from their title and just call themselves Internal Artist. That's my opinion... which YOU jumped all over. It wasn't my suggestion for Stubbs or anyone... just my opinion about how someone handles themselves in a particular line of work.

Get over it, chum.

[stubbs]

wow!!! thanks for all the replies, lots of valid suggestions and arguements.

i consider myself as a mixed martial arts, and i do them because of:

1) The fitness and health side of the arts.
2) Because i realy enjoy them.

i dont nessissarly (sp?) do martial arts because they help me to win fights, fights don't happen that often unless your looking for them (well that does depend on where you live!) and no matter how hard you train you can never say i can win every fight, 100% of the time. Alot of street attacks also happen before you know whats going on. that one of the most irritating thing i find in martial arts. unless you can say your invincable, stop the arguments, different styles have different methods of fighting, whether or not all their methods work is irrelavant, no martial art is complete so we should just accept every style as they are. thats why i mix my martial arts, different arts tend to emphasise on different methods of defence, so i try to pick up these and try to add them to my toolbox of skills. as i suggested from my oringinal post i wanted to tai chi for the internal sides of the art ( at the moment my toolbox is lacking some internal skills). i didn't realise that the martial application was so integrated into the art, i thought is was mainly health/energy exercises that touches on the pratical applications the same way my art emphasises on the practical side and touches on the internal side. you have proved my wrong and have given me a greater insite to the art and i thank you all for that. i now know that tai chi has alot more to offer to my toolbox ( i know i keep refering to the imaginary toolbox but it's the easiest way i can describe how and what i aim to get from martial arts, i hope you all understand the picture i'm tryining to get across).

there are many ways people here have described that i can use to tell between a good/bad instructor. i might spar them, i might not, but i dont consider sparring someone a challenge, if they accept then great but if they don't, then i tend to wonder why, if i approach them in a good way, not someone thats just come off the street looking for a fight, then i dont see any reason not to, i haven't got anything to prove, i do it because i enjoy, and if they have something they can teach then i'm willing to learn.

a couple of things that i will definately keep in my mind when participating in class is:

* stability, strength, and fluidity of forms, this only comes with time so i see this as a good judgement.

* teacher/student interation.

* class size, if they have very large classes then they're there for the money and can't pay much attention to individuals.

* general health of the teacher, i think this might be the most important side for me, i want qigong/tai chi to provide good internal health which can be seen on the outside.

* i they spar then great, if not then there might still be alot more i can learn from them.

* i'm going to give this time, i wont be able to decide this in one night.

i'll tell you how i get on, if anyone has anything else to add, or anything that you think i might have missed then feel free to add them.

thanks again to everyone thats posted.

"satisfaction loses,and humility gains"

[Braden]

Whoa...

First of all, it's clear the original post was written in a way that suggested a misunderstanding of the internal arts. Re: "external arts work externally, internal arts work internally."

Second of all, (as has been pointed out several times previously) no one in this thread ever suggested trying to beat the crap out of the teacher. Sparring is just a word for certain kinds of drill work. Advanced push hands is sparring, advanced bagua joining-arms is sparring. All that was suggested here was some method of hands-on-contact, the specifics of which would vary drastically depending on the situation (see my last post).

What's with this issue of "so-and-so not having to prove anything to a common joe off the street." Since when are martial arts instructors, even good ones, even lineage holders; since when are they gods? They're just normal folk like you and me. In fact, all of the "big names" I have ever met personally have been much more down-to-earth than "common joe" rather than less so - and very willing to sit down and eat dinner, watch a movie with, and get their elbows dirty with the rest of us mortals. Which includes showing us physically what they're talking about verbally. Is this them "proving something to us" or is it simply "good teaching practice." I don't know, and I don't think it makes much difference.

I know this getting off topic, but also, the idea that a good martial artist (or again, lineage holder) would never want to seek out an instructor is ridiculous. Even staying within your own family and style, there is a wealth of wisdom out there no matter how much you currently know. You can even learn alot from people with alot less experience than you - because they may have spent their years focusing on things you never focussed on. Historically, this has been very true, with all of the historical "big names" being renowned for searching out other martial artsits to learn from. Sun Lu Tang, for example, kept learning from every talented martial artist he met. Surely that's a good example to follow?

This leads into (again, as was pointed out before) the idea of advancted practitioners seeking out new instructors. Whether or not your teachers are doing this - it does happen. If someone like John Ding wants to get some more 'brain food' for his practice, and he encounters another promising-looking Yang stylist... I won't say "is he entitled to being able to test this individual" (as that phrasing causes the thought process to be a bit too subjective); but put it this way: Is it in everyone's best interests that Mr. Ding get some hands-on-contact with this individual before taking on the responsability of learning from him? Surely the answer is yes. Is there something special about Mr. Ding that makes him worth more than the rest of us mortals? Qualitatively (and I don't mean this with even the tiniest bit of disrespect), I would say no. Quantitatively, of course his expectations and his ability to understand would be different than ours - and so the nature of his contact with the prospective teacher would be different - as was allready discussed.

Finally, consider the alternative. It takes a long time of dedicated practice to get skill in the internal arts. You can't do it for a week then make a judgement call on whether or not the methods are working for you. You have to put alot of faith in the teacher. If the culture says it's acceptable for a teacher to never have to physically show himself (to one degree or another), what kind of abuses does this open up?

I think reality has allready answered that question for us.

[Water Dragon]

Challenges insure integrity.

Real CMA must be felt to be learned. Mimicking the teacher provides only limited learning.

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[EARTH DRAGON]

not to sound nit picky but this was what you said
originally on page 2.......

What I said was... "if you're not WILLING to do a little friendly sparring you've got no business
teaching a MARTIAL ART."

however now on page 5 you are claiming that you said

But I did, however, say that a martial arts teachers shouldn't be affraid to do a little friendly sparring with anyone who's eager and willing to spar.... or else they should drop the 'martial' from their title and just call themselves Internal Artist. That's my opinion... which YOU jumped all over. It wasn't my suggestion for Stubbs or anyone... just my opinion about how someone handles themselves in a particular line of work.

The 2nd part doesnt sound anything like the first part becuse in the first part you were telling someone they have no business teaching martial arts unless they are willing to do a little freindly sparring.
do you see the difference? it all about wording and the phrases you choose. again I dont mean to lay it out for you but felt obligated to point out why I thought you shouldnt have said that and the reson I jumped all over you.
you wouldnt tell a car salesman YOU SHOULDNT BE SELLING CARS THEN if you didnt agree with what he had to say..... just say YOU SHOUDLNT BE SELLING HONDAS

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

No- I don't see any difference at all. Maybe if you try another way of explaining your delusions they will become clear to me.

I should point out that in your feeble attempt to quote my first post and compare it to my last post to reinforce why you are an idiot: I paraphrased what I had posted(which is why it wasn't in quotation marks) so that you (a dullard) could grasp what had been said, since you (a dimwit) were unable to comprehend what was said on pages 1-5, which you still, on page 6, have missed...yet you continue to argue bitterly like an embattled blind man in an empty room, swinging wildly hoping you'll hit somebody who isn't there.

While I laugh at your efforts, I admire your tenacity.

If I went to a car lot and the salesman said he wouldn't sell to me until I paid for a car (which I couldn't test drive or start) - and/or- suggested that I should watch him haggle with one of his regular customers to see how he sells a car.... I'd think he's in the wrong line of work... and if he was an a**hole (like you) in the way he went about avoiding a simple sale to me, a respectful, eager, willing customer, I very well might say to him "you have no business calling yourself a salesman!"

It's very hard to tell if you're serious or not.
You are either a comic genius or a complete moron. Your bizarre associations and misspellings are so extraordinary they seem intentional...but that thing about "not selling Hondas" cinches it.

You keep picking your nits and I'll keep playing along. You are the most entertaining thing I've encountered lately.

Cheers,
Sum Guye

[This message was edited by Sum Guye on 10-04-01 at 10:51 PM.]

[Kaitain(UK)]

you misundestand me

1)I don't believe an instructor should never display his skills - I just don't believe he should do it for anyone who comes in off the street and queries his ability. A student has every right to query what is on offer - I disagree that Joe Nosey off the street has any right at all.

2)Sparring a stranger is dumb - you have no idea if he is capable of pulling blows or taking them. In my personal experience I had to defend myself against someone who appeared at first sight to be a rational and calm MA.

3) Not sure where I said John wouldn't look at anything else - what I said was that the form is more important than pushing hands and therefore he judges on the basis of someones form. I'm not John Ding so I can't speak for what he would or wouldn't do. I know that my instructor has 20 years Wado-Ryu behind him and that John Ding loves training with him. I don't believe I said John Ding was closed-minded about other arts - I just said that (AFAIK) he wouldn't need to spar or push with them. He is part of the Yang family and he has trained with all three disciples until he found the one he wanted, who he is 1st disciple of - so he searched for what he wanted. I'll be sure to ask him what he looked for. I would assume that he pushed hands with them after studying with them for a time - but he recognises that there is more to internal art than pushing hands skill.

4) I'm not sure if you are trying to denigrate John in your final statement or you are talking about other people - hopefully the latter. John has no problem demonstrating what he can do to his students - he has absolutely no interest in showing it to people he doesn't know. He teaches his students what they are ready to learn and doesn't show them what is ahead until they are ready to learn it. He strongly believes that his students are a reflection upon him - as such he doesn't teach more advanced form practice (nuance of posture etc) until he is ready.

Incidentally John runs seminars and courses throughout the world and I'm sure he displays all sorts of stuff to the people that attend - because he knows that they are there to learn Taiji.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Braden]

Kaitain -

"you misundestand me"

Quite possibly. But alot of what I spoke about IS a prevalent attitude, and worth addressing even if it's not your opinion.

"A student has every right to query what is on offer - I disagree that Joe Nosey off the street has any right at all."

I guess what the question is, is what's the difference between a student and Joe Nosey? If you replace 'student' with 'potential student' I would agree. The problem with saying that only a student has any right to evidence is that the strict definition of 'student' is someone who's allready handed over their cash and presumably rescheduled his life for a serious commitment. At which point the scam artist has allready won, so getting evidence at all is moot.

"Sparring a stranger is dumb."

I'll reiterate once again that I never specified sparring, only some kind of contact. In fact, I specifically specified NOT sparring for many cases.

"Not sure where I said John wouldn't look at anything else..."

Earlier you said "If they were to go elsewhere it would be fascinating as it would be outside of Yang style" which I took to mean that they would never try to learn anything from another Yang stylist as they're allready 'the man' there, and that they wouldn't need anything outside of Yang style (based also on some of your other comments), so therefore wouldn't study anything.

"what I said was that the form is more important than pushing hands"

I'm not sure I agree completely. There is certainly alot of knowledge to be gained by watching someone do the form. On the other hand, I've met people who have absolutely wretched looking forms who were nonetheless excellent internal martial artists. Are there people with the ability to percieve the skill through ugly form work? I imagine there are. Should we approach customs in regards to teaching assuming that this is the norm? I don't think so.

"I'm not sure if you are trying to denigrate John in your final statement."

No, definitely not. I'm sorry I left that impression. I have no experience with Mr. Ding, and have no reason to believe he is anything but an excellent practitioner and instructor.

"He teaches his students what they are ready to learn..."

I understand and relate strongly to this point. My teacher is the same. Everything is very progressive.

Just to clarify in case you misunderstood, as it seems your exagerrating my position, I never meant to suggest teacher's showcase their talent or share advanced material with someone off the street. When someone is a potential student they might just wonder what you're about. Obviously, how you approach this depends entirely on the individual in question. But certainly a beginner can be shown "hands-on" some of the introductory concepts of the art, so that he has some idea what he's wading into (as we all know it is a huge commitment). I think this is just sound teaching practice. I'm not sure how the illusion that this was inappropriate got into the martial arts culture. As a complete no-name beginning undergraduate studies, I approached a world-class professor asking him about his work. He spent a couple hours with me explaining various aspects of it. At a big-name concert I happened upon one of the performers after the show and asked him about his effects set up. We spent about an hour talking shop. And these men had much less reason to share anything with me than a potential instructor. I have found this to be the norm in fields outside of the martial arts.

One of the things I have recommended in the past to absolute beginners is that they ask a potential instructor about being able to root force (eg. press against your outstretched arm and not move it, but when you suddenly remove the press, the outstretched arm doesn't bounce back because you did not use tension to resist it). This is something that is easily verifiable, is a basic principle of the internal arts (ie. no giving away advanced material), a beginner can easily understand, any proficient internal martial arts instructor will know immediately what the person is talking about, and anyone without real skill in the internal martial arts would be extremely confused about. Do you think it would be wrong for a potential student to ask your instructor about this?

[Kaitain(UK)]

I wasn't exaggerating your position - I was just rambling about John and his teaching methods :)

I understand the quandary of how a potential student can know he's getting the right stuff before parting with his cash - it isn't easy. The 'parlour tricks' that impress people are usually basic principles that a 3 month student could replicate. I appreciate there is a difference between a novice and someone looking for a different school - I think in the latter case a simple push-hands demonstration is in order after an initial qualification of the student (i.e. a chat to get an idea of where he thinks he is).

When I talked about John looking elsewhere as being fascinating I definately meant outside of Yang family - he knows who is who in the family and i would guess he'd go to the relevant peop[le depending what he wants - but I really can't speak authoritavely about these things beyiond the information I get from my instructor. I would be fascinated to see what he wanted to look at - he was orignally a White Crane stylist who moved to Yang, so I'd be interested to see which way he headed.

With regards to form vs pushing-hands - I believe that pushing-hands is born from the form and as such the form is critical. I think what I was trying to get across is that John can see what you have by watching your form - I can watch different people train the form and can tell (at a basic level) if they have anything. If the form was ragged I think you could still see the principles within it. I'm uncomfortable talking about what John would or wouldn't do beyond that - assumptions get taken as fact and I don't want to misrepresent him or his academy.

The way my teacher gets around the issue is to give a free class to all beginners - noone is allowed to just sit and watch, they take part. QiGong is done for a short time (5 minutes) and then explained. A senior student will show them part one of the form and then teach them the first few postures. The instructor will then show some basic applications of those postures whilst iterating that an application is merely an example of what can be done. Some of the class may then do some pushing-hands (fixed,free,fixed-step,free-step). At the end everyone does a structure strengthening exercise with a partner - the beginner might be paired with one of the senior women students to show that strength is negligible - they can't break their structure down. At the end of the lesson the instructor will talk to the visitor and answer their questions and then they leave.

When we have people who have trained elsewhere in Yang style, they follow a similiar route but there is far more conversation with the instructor throughout the lesson - he likes to meet other stylists and ideas. So far every one of these people that comes has stayed - their eyes have been opened to what Yang style could and should be. When other stylists come in (no internal artists so far :() they fall into two categories - those that want to train an internal art, and those that want to prove that it is worthless.

Our method for the latter is this - one of the smaller guys will hold a focus pad and the visitor hits it, believing he can hit hard. Then they swap and the small student hits it - harder. This is where character comes into it - the visitor either wants to learn this or their ego can't deal with it and they leave.

Gotta stop writing these essays...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[toddbringewatt]

A good teacher is the one who is willing to be your friend and teach you without a whole lot of bowing and saluting hoopla.

Perhaps an unfair generalization but one that has a fair measure of workability I believe.

A bad teacher has something to hide. ALWAYS. If you put attention on this general "flow" -- i.e. is he hiding something/seem creepy somehow, etc. -- you'll be able to percieve it.

That's not to say that some good teachers have something to hide also and that that something just has nothing to do with the value of their martial arts or their ability to teach it. Maybe they're on the run from the IRS or something silly like that.

Wow, that all kinda came out of left field.

Anyway, a bit of a strange piece of advice but something I think you'll be able to think with and use. Good luck. Hope it helps.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

[EARTH DRAGON]

well I thought I would give you the benefeit of the doubt, but again you have proved to not even be worthy of my breath! you continue to call names like a school child who has not gotten his way, I think for a smart as you think you are your words and logic show signs of complete ignorance, It better to say nothing and have people just think your ignorant than to open your mouth and prove it!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Eart Dragon, you just posted this:
"I think for a smart as you think you are your words and logic show signs of complete ignorance."

I don't understand what that sentence means.

Then, you tried to quote Mark Twain with:
"It better to say nothing and have people just think your ignorant than to open your mouth and prove it!!!!!!!!!" (aside from leaving the 's off of It's... making yourself look ignorant, I wonder if you'll ever grasp how much that statement applies to you and all you've posted on this thread)

You point out that I'm not worthy of your breath... are you breathing on your keyboard or talking to your monitor? Again, it doesn't make much sense in a text environment. Comic Genius or
Complete Moron.... hmmmmmm.

Is it you in those nifty pictures on KungFuUSA? The photos of the guy grimacing while doing those graceful applications... and pointing fingers at some guy's neck to heal his back pain from a distance? (I hope so... because that would make your postings doubly entertaining).

While I can't fathom where or how you'll continue this thread with your next post... I'm anxious to see what you come up with.

[EARTH DRAGON]

How can you tell the difference between good /bad instructor? A great example of a bad instructor is sum guye's teacher! he has shown that not only has he NOTt learned to respect others and other teachers but has also learned how to show dissrespect for a lot of people includingmy students my shrfu and myself!
If I ever heard such bitter childish flamminng from one of my students I would have their head! sum guye fails to realize that the people he has offended are MY students, and with his mouth running so wildly he has failed to realize that he has not just dissrepected me as a person and my knowledge but also my shrfu's knowledge for he doesnt even understand qi-gong but yet laughs and makes fun of a boy who was crippled and paralized from the neck down due to a car accident and has shown great improvement due to his weekly qi-gong treatments, so with this sick a**hole that has hit such a strong place in my heart due to posting things about a 17 year old kid I have no other choice than to publiclly challange him! so I am hosting a challenge if you are man enough to say these things to my face! I will pay for your return home ticket when you make it here you tell me when you are comming and I will cancell class and we can fight in my school with just you and me with the door locked! no pads best out of 5 rounds if you fail to respond then you will have to pay my way home from you for I plan on finishing this the only way that is left!please do not make fun of this or try to avoid getting beaten down becuse if you call your self a man and say these things within the comforts of your home then you should back them up on the street

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

my shrfu lives in LA and I fly out there about 6 times a year I usually stay with my freind who lives in temple city on baldwin ave. right by the san anita race track so If you have some BS excuse that you dont have the money or time I will come to you but again I will pay for your return flight and I dont think you would have the smae courtesy !!!!! Pss I am also a drummer such a shame that we cant be freinds but this was your choice! you made fun a paralized kid and my abilities to heal him. you should have a little more resepect for people and not shoot your mouth off.lets let the hatred be towards terrorist's and not with americans as you and I

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[gazza99]

Will sum guye get his ego destroyed by angry Earth Dragon?....................................

Or will he continue to insult venerable Earth Dragon and remain an annonymous coward?

..........the saga continues.............

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Guandi]

>A great example of a bad instructor is sum
>guye's teacher!

I do not think that Tim has ever posted here so you should restrict you attack to the people who are responsible for writing here in this forum. So you are doing the same what you think that sum guy has done to you -- degrading his teacher.

Guandi

[EARTH DRAGON]

you are right I shouldnt have spoke about his teacher in a negitive way, but it seems as though sum guye has neglected to learn respect and dicipline on behalf of his learning a martial art. I in know way mean to say that tim doesnt teach these aspects of martial arts just that sum guye has not learned them.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Guandi]

you are not the first one who is commenting on this. BUT I really do not think that it is the duty of a ma trainer to educate his students in morality, wude or however you name it. Probably all of Tim's students are adults and it is imho not Tims responsibility how his students behave.

I would not teach my students who they should behave. That would imply that I am further on this path than my students. I think this assumption would be arrogant. I can teach them ma, but I would not teach them how they should behave. That is up to them.

Guandi

[Sum Guye]

Earth Dragon,

So you posted exactly:
"laughs and makes fun of a boy who was crippled and paralized from the neck down" and
"...has hit such a strong place in my heart due to posting things about a 17 year old kid I have no other choice than to publiclly challange him!"

Then my reply is: If you can show exactly where I made fun of and/or laughed at a paralyzed kid, I will not only accept your challenge, I will pay your round-trip airfare, a 4 star hotel (2 days stay) and will even give you 2 free drum lessons and an unabridged dictionary while you're visiting.

Show me the quotes (using "quotation marks") and prove to everyone that I made fun of a paralyzed kid.

When you prove that I did such a thing consider your challenge accepted.
(if I did such a thing, I do deserve a good beating...you might want to bring a few friends along)

I see no need for best out of 5 rounds. We'll go till someone can't continue. (rounds are for competition... what you're suggesting doesn't sound like a competition to me).

Peace, Love and proof positive is all you need,
Sum Guye

[EARTH DRAGON]

Is it you in those nifty pictures on KungFuUSA? The photos of the guy grimacing while doing those graceful applications... and pointing fingers at some guy's neck to heal his back pain from a distance? (I hope so... because that would make your postings doubly entertaining).

I do not find this or any other of your posts entertaining! I am not here to entertain you. In the pictures on our web site I am treating a spinal cord injury that you made fun of by doubting my abilities.
So this is simple you either stand up and be a man and accept my challenge and come to me or you are full of s**t and your words and half witted opinon mean nothing to me or anybody else on this board!
please do not threaten me by saying that I have to bring freinds for I grew up on the streets my freind and I am perfectly capable of handling my self in any situation.
So do you want a piece of me or what? my challenge your trip!
as you said its simple
your next post is either YES OR NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

I do feel like part of teaching is not only teaching them techniques but how and when to use them. Martial arts is self defense, and when a teacher shows a student any tecnique (child or adult) he should tell them that they should only use their skills to defend themselfs if attacked. So in reality you are instilling correct ways of mental behavoir. Also when you teach people to shoot a gun you must teach the responsible rationing that goes along with carrying such a weapon. This is also true with kung fu as it is a weapon and if we do not teach or instill morals and responsibility when teaching how to harm others then we have not taught our students correctly, this leads to bullying and irreponsibile actions from people who claim to be a martial artist but show nothing more than a would be untrained loud mouth like that of sum guye.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

please dont make me laugh for this is a serious matter.
although our veiwers should stay tunned to listen how sum guye weasles his way out of comming to me and say some thing like its to far but you can come to me crap so I will ask for his contact info to get a hold of him when I go to see my teacher in the very very near future and I will let you know what excuses he uses that time!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Zhin]

Hmm.

Without taking sides, since I really don't give a crap, I'm going to have to say that in reading this, I don't think SG ever made fun of a paralyzed person.

How exactly was he supposed to know that the person in the picture you are healing is paralyzed? I couldn't tell.

This whole thing is dumb.

What's up with the complete loss of the use of the English Language when you are ****ed off? Makes me think that you can't actually speak, just grunt and gesture with a banana.

[Sum Guye]

ED

Once you show where I made fun of a paralyzed kid,(the act which you say left you no other alternative than to publicly challange me), then you already have my answer. You said that is what you want to 'beat down' me over... I simply asked for verification of your facts. Provide my quotes to support your accusations and I'll handle all the arrangments.

I'm trying, as I have in every friggin post directed towards you, to get you to understand what you read. Just show me where I made fun of a paraliyzed kid and I gladly accept your threat. (and I'll also cover all the expenses as I stated in my most recent post).

Otherwise, you're just being a nut and I'm not interested in fighting a nut, muchless going out of my way or to any expense to fight a nut.

(sorry if you can't see the humor I see in someone who misunderstands everything and then freaks out angrily over things that was never implied.. I find it hugely amusing... movies get made about people like that).

[Nexus]

Two things...

Sum Guye, why are you wasting your time even responding to these accusations? Nobody thinks besides ED that you made fun of a paralyzed kid, so just dont bother responding, and we wont bother reading ED accusations either.

Earth Dragon, I don't think it was his intention to make fun of a paralyzed person, and I have a strong feeling to say that you are using that as an excuse to vent your personal frustration at Sum Guye. If you actually have a problem with him, then its your problem, not some excuse of what he said. If that is the case, go do some qi gong meditation, go do your martial arts, but don't make challenges and accusations that lead nowhere, and will prove to be a waste of time in the long run, for you and for all of us reading. Perhaps you will think I am stepping in where I do not belong, that this is between you and him, well if that is the case, then take it to email and stop causing us to read your petty quarells with other martial artists on a public forum where we are trying to learn "How can I tell between a good and bad instructor" not "How do I issue a challenge match after my feelings get hurt or my ego gets squashed."

- Nexus

[Sum Guye]

I agree... the personal stuff should stop... would've stopped long ago... but I had too much fun playing along. Stuff like this tickles my funny bone.

My appologies to all who've suffered through these stupid posts.

I've had some great laughs on this thread... I hope some of you have too....but as I said 4 pages ago... I'm done. :cool:

[les paul]

Having been the one to start this agruement, I guess I can give this advice.

Both Sume Guye and Earth Dragon!

I think its time to sheath your mental swords.

You both have been hacking at each other for 90 posts. Are not you both tired of swinging at each other?

At what point do you look down and notice that your swords are chipped and dull?

At what point do you notice that you both have given each other fatal wounds?

Agree to disagree and avoid each others post, it's a big news group.

Sum Guye I'm totally in support of your posistion However, unproductive time waisted on Earth Dragon is fruitless at best!


Earth Dragon what can I say? I guess nothing I already haven't said or that you would want to hear.

[gazza99]

Sum guye, I think the first paragraph on ED last post to you was your quote? I think he just forgot the quotations..
Earth dragon:
I understand your anger here, and my appologies , but a little levity is a must I believe, If i took every insult here seriously I would be flying all over the country hurting people, and possibly even getting hurt. Many people here are ignorant, disrespectfull,egotistical, and overall lack an open mind. But hey- its the internet, and until one of these As#holes wanders into my school im not going to sweat about it. As Id bet most of them would not dare speak the way the do here in real life, no matter how much the type to convince you otherwise.
We should just let it slide and have the intelligent discussion we came here for to begin with.
Kind Regards,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[EARTH DRAGON]

OK I apologise to everyone who has suffered through this..... sorry

sum guye, you did not directly make fun of someone you did not know, however you did make fun of me whom you did not know and also doubted my abilities. Of coarse you did not know the condition or reason why I was healing him with qigong but indirectly you made fun of him by what I was doing by pointing at his neck as you say becuse of lack of kindness towards others.
but now you know the truth and you feel like an a**hole and are backed into a corner that you have been challenged to fight your way out of!
You continue to avoid showing the least bit of respect for anyone (I have read all you posts) and its time to put up or shut up!

PS I much rather continue this conversation via email but he is one of those blank profile jerks who hide behind their true idenity so they can shoot their mouth off with out worry of repercussions!
sum guye are you know willing to give me a way to get a hold of you when I come to LA becuse its obvious that you are afraid of comming to me! lets see if your afaid to let me come you!!!! whats your name? who are you ? where can I find you ? phone #? address? shcool you train at? anything?
again Im sure that most of you know my posts are sincere and to help people on this forum, it was a freind of mine who started this board in the first place so I take personal pride in its growth but trolling, flamming, and negativity have no place here, this is for martial artists and people with a love for talking about martial arts not for people to make fun, ridicule and dissrespect others. So again my apologies

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[gazza99]

"so I take personal pride in its growth but trolling, flamming, and negativity have no place here, this is for martial artists and people with a love for talking about martial arts not for people to make fun, ridicule and dissrespect others. So again my apologies"

Earth Dragon, you should post this as a new thread, it sets a good tone that this board really needs currently!

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[GeneChing]

I don't even know what this thread is about. It just came up when I searched 'apprentice'. I'm hijacking it for this:


Sichuan tai chi master scolds his apprentice for trying to give him a gift of a million yuan in cash (http://shanghaiist.com/2015/08/09/a_million_for_master.php)

http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2015/08/master-1.jpg

At a tai chi ceremony in Chengdu one apprentice, with his family's support, decided to show his appreciation for his venerable master with a small gift of a million yuan in cash.

The master—who apparently is no disciple of kung fu hustler Shi Yongxin—scolded his student for the exorbitant gift.

http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2015/08/master-2.jpg

As soon as the tai chi master Li Guangjin found out that an enormous amount of stacks of cash were piled up on his table, he began criticizing his apprentice. The master said that his goal is to pass down his wisdom to his apprentices, not attain material wealth.

http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2015/08/master-3.jpg

Besides, he added, he doesn't need the money. It's not like he could buy a longer necklace, anyway. The apprentice shamefully scooped back up all the cash.

http://shanghaiist.com/upload/2015/08/master-4.jpg

So much honor!

By Lucy Liu

[Images via China News]