assistance from White crane system

[byond1]

Dear sirs,

My partner and i are working on 2 historic Wing chun projects. They are seperate and stand on there own. The first is a Wing chun encyclopedia. The second is a research institute into the origins of the wing chun system.

In the wing chun encyclopedia, we would like to include information also on our Parent system White crane. We would like to include some historical information, and White crane Kuen Kuit , so they can be compared by the public with the Wing chun Kuen kuit.

Second, we would like White crane practitioners to assist with the Research work, that is working twords proving that Wing Chun is a child of White crane. And that wing chun is a hybred style, incorporating a second Snake fist system. This is going to be a Visual comparing and contrasting, of Physical shape of movements, Form sequence, and Jing Manefestation.

We are searching for some of the older school white crane systems like are found in Taiwan, Possibly Liu family. But would be willing to work with all white crane systems/practitioners.

Also anyone who was in the Taiwan convension, of the white crane masters, willing to work with us would be most appreciated.

If anyone is interested in this historical work, please contact me at

Deadletter6@yahoo.com

B

[Asmo]

Second, we would like White crane practitioners to assist with the Research work, that is working twords proving that Wing Chun is a child of White crane. And that wing chun is a hybred style, incorporating a second Snake fist system.

It seems you already determined the results of the research...

Other then that, good luck on your project :)

[yat_chum]

Hi byond1, check out this thread

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40240

[brianlkennedy]

Most recently Lion Books has released a six volume boxed set of reprinted Crane Boxing manuals.
Hope this helps. That sounds like a great project.
Take care,
Brian

[Asmo]

And that set is available 'in the west' from Plum Publishing. It has quite a bit of gems: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/lionbks/bk_whitecraneboxed.htm

PS, I love your book on ancient training manuals and am recommending it to anyone Brian. Not just alone for the historic survey, but also for your clear personal view on shaolin and chi.

Hope you will write something like this for Hunggar someday =D (/me points to other thread)

[byond1]

Hi all,

Thanks for the great responce Brian. I have been planing on getting the 3 dvd from plum on the Taiwan meeting. And the 6 book set is real nice.

Asmo--:D You are correct. I know the YKS system has Old school ancestral white crane in its foundation. BUT, im not an expert on Crane , and so want to do the research along side my fellow Crane brothers and sisters.

Ancestral White crane, wasnt organized into Forms. It was small San Sik sets. Just like certain kinds of Old school wing chun.
Each san sik was a Jing Pattern, with concepts and principles attached to it. Hence you could than use the Jing and concepts anyway your imagination can. Gradualy the San sik got linked into sets. Other sets were expanded on certain ideas. And than finnaly the Crane system was reformed at one point, and the general system took its current manefestation, with longer forms.

Hence Ancestral Red Boat Wing Chun, in my opinion, is related to Ancestral White crane. Its commonly accepted in many WHite crane circles that Wing chun is a child of the Crane art. We just had a non crane Father.:)

Our oral tradition in YKS and Cho Family WCK, is that a 5th generation female master taught a Male Lay monk of the name Miu Shun (not the shaolin similar name). THis was in the area of Emie Mountain range. Miu Shun practised a very soft Internal Art that used Snake like motions. Miu Shun Combined his boxing with that of the White crane, and created the original WCK system.

Still preserved in Cho Family writings, is that on Miu Shuns death bed, he admited to his only diciple, Yim Yee that his art that he had just learned, is not the White crane system, but a hybred system.

Several generations later, the system continued to evolve on the Operatic Red Boats. The Leader of the troup was a known White crane master of the name Lee Man Mao. Who lead the opera troup in the Tai Ping rebelion. Opera was banned by the Chings, and several WCK opera stars taught there skills to the next generation which included Leung Jan, Fok Bo Chuen,Fung siu ching and the Cho Brothers.

This generation further passed down the art and it evolved further, and at this time we see the standard 3 hand forms emerge. Than by the mid 1900s that was evolved even more, when the WCK system was taught openly to the public, for the first time.

I can see how, if one would only use Yip man/H.K WCK as a comparison, it isnt as obvious. But if you look at Old school WCK, our forms are simply linked JIng patterns, with concepts and principles attached to it.

White crane gave us our Centerline theory, Chuen Jing or Inch force, 5 element Hand method, Po Pai Application, and as a friend of mine likes to point out, "The Sun Potential". And this is the Tip of the iceberg

We also have San sik that are very much like the Ancestral White crane San sik that still exist today linked into small 10 or 12 movement sets.

We even have san sik called"Pok yik Jeung / Flapping wing palms"
or" Bok Hok Kum Wu / White Crane captures the Fox".

The Pok Yik Jeung are a Horizontal Jing, that is thrown by the waist. Its old school purpose was to uproot, and knock someone off of a boat. Ive actualy seen the exact motion in crane, but i think its called Horizontal Flying wings.

So, the idea is to dig to the center though, and compare and contrast it side by side with written, pictoral and possibly DVD.

Thanks everyone

B

[canglong]

Our oral tradition in YKS and Cho Family WCK, is that a 5th generation female master taught a Male Lay monk of the name Miu Shun (not the shaolin similar name).byond1,
What makes your oral tradition Better than all the rest. Ng Mui from Shaolin is conveyed more often by more families than Miu Shun so how then does the oral legend of Mui Shun in your mind become the chosen "more than likely" scenario in this case study.

[The Great Sage of HU]

Brian,

As you know oral stories are mainly to motivate the students.
And you probably also know the "telephone game", showing that all stories will change in time.
So how are you going to tell who's version is right.
You can do an overview, but in the end it may cause more problems than solve things.
So would it be more logic to just present your own version of the style and it's history (so your lineage)?

[byond1]

Aye. Everyone, lets not project your thoughts onto what i am doing.

Obviousy Mr. Jacobs--Ng Mui is the source, in our research. She passed the art down to someone who further modified it. But Again Ng Mui and Miu Shun may not actually be people. They may be methaphors for Systems of combat. The goal isnt to prove they existed. Thats irrelavant. And honestly i dont like your tone. THis isnt "My Oral Tradition"--I have publicaly expained the organization i represent, and the work we are doing and why.
THis research has nothing to do with Non Ng Mui systems of wing Chun.

I understand that everyones referance point in america is that , A Group will take oral Tradition, than use it to suggest they are the oldest and the "Most" Original. Tie there tradition to the old "Shaolin Money Machine" Then Sell books, videos, make Money, host seminars. Than will add a Lineage of Ancestors that cant be Traced. Than Cant offer Technical expanations of why, their said Oral Tradition was true or their system is the oldest, nor can explain why there system contains modern inovations.
This isnt the case Here. So everyone. Relax......Ommmmmmm.
If you feel threatened by the Research, perhaps you need to do some soul Searching about where your insecurities come from.

I agree Oral Tradition in itself is no better than anyone elses.
At this Point, the AWCKRI doesnt dispute WCK coming from Shaolin or not. I dont Know and Dont care at this point.

What i am saying is that out of 16 Major WCK lineages 10 of them name Ng Mui as an ancestor. 3 of those include Chi Shim also. 2 Others suggest only Chi Shim. Out of the remaining 4, 2 trace the system to Tan Sau Ng and 1 to a Totaly unknown Monk and 1 from Vietnam mixes and matchs info from all sorts of various traditions..
We are simpling showing that the Ng Mui , if not an actualy person, is a metaphor relateing to the White Crane system. And that the White Crane System is the Ancestor to at least 12 major Wing Chun Lineages. The other 4 "Non Ng Mui version" system are non of my buisiness.

Now Where does the WHite Crane Sysem come from?? Again. i dont have a Clue. Shaolin??? I dont know. Written records from Weng Chun County, suggest it was created by using 18 Lo Han fist, with Crane Movements. It didnt contain anyforms. Was completly San Sik based (Just like several very old Wing Chun SYstems), and could be trained in 2 man Sets, on the JOng or with Knives. The system was Jing Based as well as conceptual. Exaclty like Cheung Bo, Mai Gai Wong, WOng Jing, Pan Nam, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Kay, Kulo, Non Chan wah Shun- Leung Jan lineages from Foshan, ect

For the first time, in the History of the Wing Chun system, we are Actualy Proving, in a "More likely than not senario", that one of Wing Chuns parents , is The Ancesral White Crane System. By Proving i mean, we are doing a Technical breakdown, with comparing and contrasting the 2 systems. And show by the Engine, Concepts, Principles, Physical Shape/structure, and Kuen Kuit.

The Oral tradition found in All WCK branchs, has never been substantiated. This will be the first time. The Organization that is doing the Research is differant from any to exist. There are No schools attached to the Research facility. There fore, NO rice bowls to protect. This is a Multi national based organization.

The group is made up of 20-30 people currently, from EVERY major WCK lineage. The only Criterion for joining is you have to have a Provable/Traceable Lineage. Your System, also must be found In China, or Taiwan. So for example if you are a system of Wing Chun, that states you are the oldest system in the World, and yet you are only found in America ,That doesnt cut it. If you state you are found in China, but your Super Secret and Noone knows where your hidding, that doesnt cut it. If you have a list of Ancestors, and cant provide any proof of their existance, that doesnt cut it.

Let me give a concret example. Yuen Kay shan had 2 Sifu. The Town/Government documents, in Foshan document this as well as his fathers buisiness. Its also substantiated by His Grandson, as well as his Only Diciple Sum Nung, as well as by 15 grandstudents. He has his lineage preserved in China, as we can go to Guangdong or even H.K and find his art still being taught. We know YKS had interactions with several other famous Kung Fu masters , one from Northern Mantis. The Chin Wu preserve his system via a student of Sum Nung.

Or Lets take Chu Chong Man. Easy To trace. He owned a buisness. His Sifu, Master Dong, was a well known Florest, that numerous WCK masters knew as well as Other Kung Fu masters. And there is physical proof of him being a Wing chun Sifu. Photos of Him doing the Jong and Pole. Chu hanging out with other Wing Chun sifu like Yip Man. Again, his decendents are still teaching in China, H.K and even in the USA.

So...Relax and remember

"We are the Seeds of Fire, Blowing in the Wind"

[Eric Ling]

Hi byond1

“For the first time, in the History of the Wing Chun system, we are Actualy Proving, in a "More likely than not senario", that one of Wing Chuns parents , is The Ancesral White Crane System. By Proving i mean, we are doing a Technical breakdown, with comparing and contrasting the 2 systems. And show by the Engine, Concepts, Principles, Physical Shape/structure, and Kuen Kuit.”

Interesting that you should single out Ancestral Crane as the guilty party. Just wondering if this is because you take “Ancestral” here as meaning the “oldest”?

Comparing principles and concepts, imho, is probably the best way to go about your project.

I do a little of Crane arts and have access to details/materials from other lineages.

If you like, we can communicate off-line.

My email white88crane@yahoo.com

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[canglong]

originally posted by beyond1
Hence Ancestral Red Boat Wing Chun, in my opinion, is related to Ancestral White crane. Its commonly accepted in many WHite crane circles that Wing chun is a child of the Crane art. We just had a non crane Father.I guess that sound we heard was made by the facts and contrast and comparisons going out the window to make room for your opinion

originally posted by beyond1
Our oral tradition in YKS and Cho Family WCK, is that a 5th generation female master taught a Male Lay monk of the name Miu Shun (not the shaolin similar name). THis was in the area of Emie Mountain range. Miu Shun practised a very soft Internal Art that used Snake like motions. Miu Shun Combined his boxing with that of the White crane, and created the original WCK system.
Still preserved in Cho Family writings, is that on Miu Shuns death bed, he admited to his only diciple, Yim Yee that his art that he had just learned, is not the White crane system, but a hybred system.
So something preserved in writing about a man that may or may not be an actual man but could possibly be a system is now proof positive that is a very interesting development indeed.

If you feel your research is being threatened you might want to do a little more research.

[byond1]

Actually Mr.jacobs you are the one that needs to do more research. You trip over your own feet, when something might possibly substantiate something Hendrik believes. Someone you would do anything to disprove since he puts your Sifu and His groups rice bowl, under attack.

Facts and Contrast and comparisons will still only amount to a "More likely than not senario'--which is from a group of researchers im part of, I have my own opinion on things ALSO. Hence the differance, and hence i have honor and stand by my own thoughts seperate from those of the research groups, when im speaking for myself, i always STATE : MY OPINION, if i refer to the groups research, i state ACCORDING TO OUR FINDINGS< A MORE LIKEYLY THAN NOT SENARIO IS..... Obviously your comprehension skills need more refinement, as i would assume one like yourself that obviously thinks he is smarter than everyone else, would have grasped that side of my character.

Perhaps you might want to put up or shut up. Obviously someone who wants to spend time simply being a Internet warrior, argueing symantics, needs a life. I think a good policy for you, would be to stear clear of me. As you dont see me posting on your Posts, attacking you, and making an anoyance of myself.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr.Ling--Please allow me to Clairify.
When i made the statement "Ancestral White crane" i wasnt refering to the lineage, that calls itself Ancestral White Crane. I was specificaly refering to Pre reformation White crane. Prior to the existance of the longer sets with flowery poetic names. Back when the art was San Sik Based. I understand , and agree with the Lineage called "Ancestral White crane" isnt older than other lineages of Crane.
I look forward to talking with you.

[Eric Ling]

Hi byond1,

Hendrik is in your group ?

Yes, I thought you might be refering to the "single postures" days.

And likewise, I look forward to talking to you too..

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[canglong]

Facts and Contrast and comparisons will still only amount to a "More likely than not senario'--Then how could you ever jeopardize anyones "rice bowl". Common sense is a good thing Brian I suggest you find yours. People that use the term "internet warrior" should stand as close as possible to the mirror and say the words out loud. The only thing about your character I grasp is ego.


Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed,
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is the primal union.

He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honor and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man.


Reach higher my friend...