Double tok sau

[yat_chum]

Can anyone tell me some applications for the double tok sau movement from the dummy form?

[Ultimatewingchun]

And...."tok" sau is translated as what, exactly?

[AmanuJRY]

In LTWT, I was told it translated as 'lifting' or 'raising', but based on the charachter they used translates more as 'to support with the hand'.

In SLT, it's in the fourth set after the double jum sau's, before the double jut sau's and biu jee sau's.;)

[Matrix]

Can anyone tell me some applications for the double tok sau movement from the dummy form?Imagine that the end of the dummy "arms" are in fact an opponents elbows. :)

[Nick Forrer]

One application could be against a double standing throat grab...raise your enemys arms together by pushing up on the elbows to break free....

However the fact that you are training both arms togther in the form does not necessarily mean you apply it that way for real.....it just makes the form more economical....just as in SLT you train double jut and double biu....doesnt mean you do it that way for real (in fact it would probably put you at a disadvantage to do it that way in reality)...although of course you can do it that way (as Gary Lam shows).

BTW, Tok is to pushing what jut is to pulling...both travel along the same 45 deg gradient just n opposite directions. It is a useful action. Some people refer to this as Dai Jeung (lower palm) as the fingers point down when executing it. The other 3 palm actions (as found in SLT) are Jing Jeung (fingers point up), Wang Jeung (fingers point to the side) and Che Jeung (fingers pointed down at an angle). All three are used in combination with one another to form the Po Pai actions in the fourth section of the dummy.

[Nick Forrer]

In SLT, it's in the fourth set after the double jum sau's, before the double jut sau's and biu jee sau's.;)

FWIW, In WSLVT its the action after the bong and then tan at the end of SLT....but it doesnt really matter as long as its in there

[AndrewS]

Tok is a way to get underneath someone's force and break their balance. If you can go forward, it's not so sensible to do ('cos you open the guy middle and low, which leaves your head open if you take the what's there with hands without stepping), though it can be used as way to open someone for a kick, or a step in with a punch in that context. It seems most sensible and effective when used either without stepping or when stepping back as you can generate a good bit of force at weird angle/timing to break someone's forward progress, and the space you get from the tok tends to leave them right in a nice pocket for you to do some work.

Andrew

[AndrewS]

And, of course, you can always use this as an entry to shoot a double or single.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now that I know what's meant by "tok" sao...actually, in TWC's Advanced version of SLT (where there's some footwork) - this move is part of what's used to defend a grab from behind - as in a rear bear hug that also captures your arms.

But keep in mind that two of the moves are done in reverse, ie.- the sequence of the first two moves in the section of the form that I'm about to describe are reversed when done in the actual self defense application against the bear hug.

In the form: double gum sao, (which has nothing to do with what follows - as gum is explained as having to do with a different application - and not against a bear hug)...okay...double gum sao...rear double jut....front double bil jee saos (as AmanuJRY calls it - LOL)...followed by the "raising hands" tok saos....

and then a lift of the knee, leg, and foot into a full 120 degree sidestep backwards (so as to get you leg back down on the floor behind his leg)...and then the swinging movement of the arms downward and back up into a fut sao motion.

In other words: in the actual application - the double bil jee saos are done first while hitting him with your back to loosen his grip a bit while lowering your stance - then quickly reach behind with the downward double rear jut saos - which are actually reverse palm strikes to the groin (which I like to turn into a grab and squeeze of the family jewels)...followed by bringing the arms to the front once again to perform the double lifting tok saos (to prevent his arms from returning to the bear hug - or possibly to prevent his turning the bear hug into a rear naked choke (by quickly attaching the double tok saos to his arms with a double a fuk sao-like movement...(ie.- like hooks) - as TWC fuks have the hand and fingers pointed diagonally down and toward the inside of the arm...followed by the 120 degree sidestep backwards ending with the fut sao as a way of throwing him over your leg and onto the floor flat on his back.

HOWEVER...it must be kept in mind that the double rear downward jut/reverse palm strike is ONLY used if his grip is still very tight after your first move (double bil jee saos) - because if he loosens up at that point and you put your hands and arms behind for the jut/reverse palm strikes - HE WILL GET THE CHOKE ON YOU.

[Mr Punch]

I find it very difficult to get live on a double handed throat grab, because mostly people will grab with enough slack in their arms to shake you like a pitbull shaking a rat. If you can get a good enough angle you can push their elbows up and in to lock them, but I think it's pretty low percentage.

Against a double throat grab, we practice to punch somebody in the face, maybe repeatedly. If you can you get the rising palm heel to the chin and follow through with a head control, which can be helped by letting them push you into a good wound-up rooting position/against a wall etc.

Against a single armed somewhat extended grab to your lapel/clothes the tok works nicely, and same as most double moves in SLT I don't think it's necessarily designed to be done as a double in application. Although, having said that, I have used it as a double in grappling when someone has been half-arsed with their grabbing for me.

As a double action it works well against a simple scooby-doo schoolyard shove if you're coming forward, and that's a nice set-up for Andrew's suggestion of a tackle.

[AndrewS]

FWIW,

someone pretty good showed me single tok as a counter to someone getting greedy going for an underhook. The timing is tight, and you need good mechanics, but it seemed like something well worth working on when looked at in that light.

Vic,

I've seen similar rear bearhug apps. Here's what I got out of the ones that work

-make yourself bigger (drop and expand)
-lead him off his base to prevent the slam
-turn inside the space you just made
-if both arms are around your body, get a 2 on 1 and threaten a standing kimura to open

Andrew

[k gledhill]

in the line of thinking I follow there are no 'applcations' , although everything can be made to do something in martial arts....just depends on the mind and its guiding fingers...
tok sao is after what ?....jut....we are never doing two hands together fighting as slt /chisao....[ unless we create a situation where we can 'apply' the sequence to compliant attackers...? ].
so in chumkil....when we do jut on tan sequence, to train a jut force against a hitting force [missing the dummy at this early stage] with elbows in aka 'tan'sao...we do the same affirmation of 'force' and 'elbows' after jutsaoing the dummy arms....
the 'elbow sequence' we are training is to;

hit/interuption/jut/hit....hit/interuption/jut-hit.....dont look at the chumkil as an application but rather an instilling of the slt in unison with other actions including motion...

or hitting elbow in on the outside gate while flanking [aka tan] meets incoming...jut it , then bring elbows in to train the concept of slt ...elbows in ...lin sil di dar...block with forearms while blitzing the flanks until opponent rendered harmless or chnges mind.

elbow in - aka slt ~ little idea ...slt. we do jut saos' from....tansaos then we hit from jutsaos to train hitting from jutsao...simple

then we take this simple action and add chum kil jut ON tan to develop what...? THE JUT in JUT sao , the sharp neck-jarring /whiplash with little movement of the elbow then hitting again...back to the guiding finger "overwhelm with 2 against one" so hitting interupted jut and hit jut turns back to hitting 2 against one again...

the dummy is reaffirming the slt~chumkil .... the tan is always the prehitting position for full follow through using the centerline as the starting point ....the jut allows the elbow to leave but must be trained to return to center when about to hit again..or one hits from elbow out after jut sao...thereby blocking our own attacking line. theoreticly ! then sods law takes over.


some do 'elbow breaks' using the 'application' thinking ...not wrong just not hitting the head 'thinking' so it can be what you make it...
the root action is jut [sharp jerking action] trained ontop of elbow in tan.....

simple thinking. the main fighting action in a forward attack....if blocked.

my 2 c

double tok is only part of the double jut ...look at chum kil for attacking not just defence....all attacking

and double 'tok' go forwards not up, like hitting.

[anerlich]

Victor,

Tok sao was explained to me as the series of upward palms in Chum Kil in the first section, and the final movement in the first dummy set (double upward palm on both arms) - it also appears in the bon sao section of SLT after the low palm strike, and in other places in the dummy as well.

I like your thinking on the SLT application.

Nick,

In TWC the jut is done as a push, rather than a pull, some people might call it chum instead. Not to say your way doesn't work or isn't effective. As Kevin said with tok, just about everything in TWC goes forward, including the tok.

Against a double throat grab, we'd prefer a step back and pivot with a couple of fingers in the throat, or swinging the arm over the top (fut sao's from CK) with a pivot to trap his hands in your armpit and break the grip. Tok sao would work before he got the grip on, probably not after once he'd got the grip on and tensed up, though if he gets that far (grab and tense) you've messed up. Countering a two arm choke at this point is like trying to escape an armbar once the guy has it just about on, i.e. the counter is much easier early in the piece.

A fairly standard wrestling counter to the double neck tie (a better two hand grabbing option than the "Frankenstein choke" IMO) is to grab both triceps near the elbows (so you can feel if he lets go to hit), and hold his arms in place as you change levels and attack his legs (double leg, etc.) That's something like a double tok. I've seen the similar tactic used in conjunction with pulling him overhead with both legs used as a counter to a neck crank / can opener attempted by a guy inside your closed guard.

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS:

Yeah...I like that bearhug scenario as you describe it also. And from the catch point of view, getting the double wristlock (standing kimura) is a great/often used move when he grabs from behind. (Sakuraba vs. Renzo) Can be done on the ground also if you're belly down on your knees and he's on top and reaches out to seatbelt you - or as you're trying to get up from your knees and he's behind...btw...the way you describe using tok against an attempted underhook is very similar to a wrestling move known as a "salto" (spelling?)...to stop the underhooks from developing in the first place or to take advantage of double unders before they get completely locked in. (You can actually lock him up and threaten his elbows - and especially the nerves in the back of his arms near the elbow but not quite at the tricep yet). It's painful and can seriously limit his movement - setting him up for a throw, a sweep, or a knee to the groin.


Andrew Nerlich:

Now I'm confused again. Tok means "upward palm strikes"?

[Tom Kagan]

Can anyone tell me some applications for the double tok sau movement from the dummy form?

Uh ... did you consult with your teacher and classmates?

Still, how about you just try to use it? Whatever you think "Double tok sau" is, try it as a response to almost anything for three weeks or so. You might get lit up for a while, but you also truly "get" your answer instead of reading words.

Regardless, I'd say as a general rule, if you can make whatever you try work the majority of times in the majority of the scenarios, find better partners and try again. Otherwise, you will, most likely, get the wrong idea about your training - just as you might if you formulated your ideas for application based mostly on what others suggest.


(I really don't care for questions like this. Excuse me if I sound brusque. Lack of sleep tends to make me even more curt than I usually am.)

[Matrix]

(I really don't care for questions like this. Excuse me if I sound brusque. Lack of sleep tends to make me even more curt than I usually am.)Tom,
I was thinking that Santa must have left a lump of coal in your stocking. ;)

[Tom Kagan]

Tom,
I was thinking that Santa must have left a lump of coal in your stocking. ;)


I am Santa.



... and on the other 364 nights of the year (365 on leap years), I pretty much hate everyone. So, seriously: if you annoying kids don't stay the hell off my lawn, I'm gonna turn the hose on the whole lot of you.


;)