Personal students or closed door student

[5fistboxing]

Personal students or closed door student.

How did you become one? share your story. Did you ask etc.

[John2004]

Personal students or closed door student.

How did you become one? share your story. Did you ask etc.


easy. just find a teacher and a sucker with money. charge the sucker $30K to
become a lifetime disciple. tell the sucker you are getting the close door version and
not the public version., and then set up the Bai-Si ceremony to make the sucker
feel special.

Sad thing is the sucker will never learn the entire system.. in fact can't even
spar.

[anerlich]

1. Personal student: Easy. Paid for a few private lessons. Have even given a few myself.

2. Closed door: if I WERE one, I wouldn't be allowed to tell YOU.

Anyone who offers a "closed door" relationship in MA in the 21st century is deluded or a charlatan. Anyone who accepts one is an idiot. IMHO of course, though I'm unlikely to be Robinson Crusoe.

[Paul T England]

Come on guys it should be very sensible! (at least in my view)

Private student - Ask the teacher for privates, learn more technical stuff but not a certainty to improve much without the hard class type training unless the teacher will teach the privates like that. I am very selective of who to teach privates to as the time drags if they don't have the right qualities.

Closed door student - I think of this as learning from a teacher who has either retired or does not teach professionally/Commercially.

In door / Deciple - Bai Si Ceremony. Not all teachers do them and some that do should not in my opinion. How can a teacher take deciples if he was not a deciple (like many of the wing chun people out there!

I have been fortunate to have privates and classes with many of my teachers. I have not done a bai si but hope that the long relationship with my teachers means they can trust me and that I have learnt something.

Merry Christmas
Paul

[Liddel]

Personal students or closed door student.

How did you become one? share your story. Did you ask etc.

5fistboxing - Many have a bad POV of closed door students these days because teachers motives in this area have more often than not being more money orientated.

I trained with my Sifu for 6 years paying annual fees as a student. During this time i practiced hard mentally and physically, meaning i asked more than my fare share of questions about theory while going out trying things out and returning with more questions.

After about six years ( it was a while ago now ) Sifu asked me to become his follower/ disciple. I did the Bi Si ceremony, sifu drank the tea and i payed a lifetime fee which was a little more than one years fees as a 'student'.

At first i was sceptical - but i thought about it and i intended to train for many more years so i did the math and realised if i trained for more than two more years the lifetime fee would be worth it.

Subsequently i relised sifu now saw me as his son, and not only would he teach me kung fu but if i wished to learn the chinesse language, chinesse medicine as well as other skills sifu had like chinesse caligraphy, all i had to do was ASK.

Five or so years later my "lifetime payment" is def paying off - ive learnt more of everything and i pay nothing but respect !

Ive had such a great experience after doing the Bi Si ceremony i feel sorry for those that come here with the story of feeling ripped off but the problem lies with thier master not the the idea/process of becomming a so called "closed door student".

It seems there are more greedy people out there than those with sound morals.:rolleyes:

In terms of cost - to a large extent VT has always being expensive. In the late 1950's when my master begun trainning under Sifu Lok, VT cost upwards of 20 dollars a month. Some reading may think thats cheap but compare it with the majority of other styles at the time that were 2 and 3 dollars a month and you see it always was an expensive endeavour.

Then when he learnt from GM Ip to refine his base skill he had to pay more - but that was thier tradition which is why i believe westeners resist a little more - were not used to it.

[Liddel]

I just wanted to share my experience because all i here is BAD versions on these forums and IMO if you find the right Master for you who isnt after "worshipers" but really wants to impart thier knowledge and skill it can be a great thing. :)

[anerlich]

Actually, I guess I become a "personal" student with my first instructor.

One of the guys in my office (public service in Canberra AUS) said he knew a guy upstairs who taught Kung-Fu, and he (the guy in my office) was trying to arrange a group to train together.

Dave came down and talked to us as a group shortly thereafter, he said he'd charge us $1 each for a training session in the park across the road from work at lunchtimes. He told me later that he thought it would probably amount to nothing and he might as well just get a nominal fee so it didn't turn out to be a total loss. He dispensed with the fee once he saw we were serious and in it for the long haul.

About twelve guys were there the first day, after a month it turned out to be Dave, me, a guy from my office who already did JJJ, and another guy from Dave's office. The guy that set it up made two sessions - but I owe him for it.

I ended up sticking with this for about 18 months. The majority of times it was just Dave and me. Occasionally he'd get guys along he'd trained before, when he had classes at a university, but for some reason he was between locations there. I trained with him in his backyard, one of his senior's backyards, and at various parks around Canberra. He set up a class in a local sports centre eventually. I moved away from Canberra - I loved KF but hated the place - but kept in touch with Dave.

He remains one of the best and most knowledgeable KF guys I've ever met; he could have gone to the US and charged gigabucks, pumped out videos and DVD's by the truckload and got rich teaching fulltime - he got several lucrative offers to teach various police units, etc., but was quite happy to keep working as a public servant and teach classes 2-3 times a week.

Dave took early retirement a few years back - he still teaches quite actively though. He's always been friendly towards other stylists.

He and I always try and get together if I go to Canberra (my brother lives there) or he comes to Sydney.

I remain a personal student of Dave's, though I now refer to myself as a student of Rick Spain's.

I'm proud to also be a friend of Dave. He'd roll his eyes and laugh if I told him I wanted to Bai Si.

Looking back, I remember those days vividly and with great fondness. Lots of days out on the green grass, sun overhead, kicking, punching, learning a form, sparring. FAN - F****** - TASTIC.

[Dave P]

A Personal student, is a student for a teacher to abuse
A closed door student, is a student locked out of the classroom....:D

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I consider myself to have been quite lucky as my Sifu have all been very open and friendly with me. My concept is that Wing Chun is a family and we all have our place. I consider my instructors as friends and would do anything I could for them, as they would do for me. I was fortunate enough to live in the home of one of my Sifu for a few years as part of his family and will always cherish the memories of those times. However, just like a regular family we have had our falling outs and in some cases I have lost touch with my previous Sifu. Yet, each one treated me fairly and openly taught me what they could.

Does this make me a personal student?? I am not sure but I am apt to think I have been blessed with good instructors who accepted me as their student and friend.

[FooFighter]

I can only see this from a fitness industry's perspective, there is a big difference learning in a group setting and a private setting. I am not jaded by the cost of learning a skill from a qualified person or a qualified person making a living from teaching. Just take a look at group fitness class goers and a "few" who invest in private training. I am not saying one is better, but those who get private instruction get more personal attention and guidance. In martial arts, if you have the means to get private lessons from a qualified and morally centered instructor, than do it. If you cannot, then be hard working enough to research and apply what you understand. From my experience, martial artists who received private lessons have a better understanding of the system than those those who simply attend seminars. However, on the other hand, I have known martial artists who never had private sessions who were excellent martial artists. They had the right stuff such as talent, high learning curve, curiousity, passion, character, and etc. Oh yeah, maybe it is the American in me, but if you are paying for private lessons from a martial artist and aren't getting any better or getting your goals, than you have the right to stop paying for it. Just my two cents.

[Ultimatewingchun]

During my days with Moy Yat he had two kinds of students: regular students and SPECIAL students. (No...I'm not kidding. There was actually such a thing as the Moy Yat Ving Tsun Special Students Association).

There basic difference between the two was that the SPECIAL students had the privilege of paying him more money. :D

[Matrix]

During my days with Moy Yat he had two kinds of students: regular students and SPECIAL students. (No...I'm not kidding. There was actually such a thing as the Moy Yat Ving Tsun Special Students Association).Victor,
As we all know the meaning of words can shift over time. For example, there was a time when "gay" meant "happy", now it has a totally different connotation..... not that there's anything wrong with that.
By the way, were you a "special" student of Moy Yat?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes I was.

[couch]

Yes I was.

My understanding of this SSA was that these students learned more about Kung-Fu Life and were taught more VT as a part of it. I have read, however that the fees were quite a lot higher than the other students were paying.

Correct me if I'm wrong...I wasn't there.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Matrix]

Yes I was.I thought so.
Thanks,

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes, the fee was much higher. Basically it was the ticket to getting "closer" to Moy Yat so that he might teach you more than if you weren't a Special Student...and he had no hesitations about telling you that directly.

But in fairness to the man - it wasn't only about the money. He truly enjoyed having people around him who would be like family. (At least that's what he hoped it would turn out to be like when you joined his Association).

[couch]

Yes, the fee was much higher. Basically it was the ticket to getting "closer" to Moy Yat so that he might teach you more than if you weren't a Special Student...and he had no hesitations about telling you that directly.

But in fairness to the man - it wasn't only about the money. He truly enjoyed having people around him who would be like family. (At least that's what he hoped it would turn out to be like when you joined his Association).

A + and a -, very nicely written, Vic!

It's cool to hear about some back-in-the-day stories.

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Phuc Carem]

Close them all into the closet LOL hahahehe just a joke. Check out the Wing Chun Fight Club sometimes it is getting better.

[Paul T England]

It appears Ip Man did not take disciples (at least accordng to what I have been told) Did Jiu wan take disciples? Or did Chan Wah Soon take disciples?

Paul

[CFT]

It appears Ip Man did not take disciples (at least accordng to what I have been told) Did Jiu wan take disciples? Or did Chan Wah Soon take disciples?Really? I was recently told that Lun Gai sifu does not take disciples - I can't remember if this was because the original Foshan students were not disciples or whether for the above reason. I'll ask Derek again when I next see him.

[Paul T England]

Yeah Sifu also told me that Lun Kai said Yip Man did not take disciples. I am just wondering if Chan Wah Soon took disciples (I remember Yip Man was the last student of Chan Wah Soon and probably finished most of his training with his elder kung fu brother)

Also I wonder if the Bai Si tradition exists in Yuen Kay San line or other families.

LOL, I might have to switch teacher just to do a bai si!!!

From a Chinese point of view is it ethical for a teacher to take disciples if he was not a disciple?

Paul

[CFT]

From a Chinese point of view is it ethical for a teacher to take disciples if he was not a disciple?I really don't see it as an ethical problem - especially if you can consult your own teacher and get their approval. If it is about preserving tradition, and your lineage doesn't do discipleships then there is nothing to worry about.

Maybe there is more significance to discipleship that I do not understand beyond the public statement of kinship. Is there perhaps a kind of unwritten statement that accepting disciples you somehow are "setting up your own house"? But how does that square with lineages that do have discipleships?

In my personal life I have been sounded out about becoming an elder godbrother ("kai gor" in Cantonese) to a younger friend; since we do not have a tradition of this in my immediate family I felt very uncomfortable about going down this road so suggested just remaining good friends.