chen wangting theory

[PlasticSquirrel]

why would anyone believe a theory based soley on the following verses in the chen family chronicle:

"life consists in creating actions of boxing when feeling depressed"

"chen wangting was the originator of the bare-handed and armed combat boxing of the chen school"

these verses point more towards the chen family pao chui than taijiquan. if chen wangting was the originator of taijiquan, and if his descendents had practiced it for hundreds of years, then why is it not said anything about in the book?

even the two historians who came up with this theory admit that they could have been mistaken, and accept criticism now, saying that as more facts become public, they need to revise the conclusions that they made in the past.

:eek:

[EARTH DRAGON]

I was told be my teacher and lead to beleive that the Tai chi chuan originally called Wu tang boxing was created at the end of the Sung dynasty by a monk named chen sen feng who then taught it to Chang Sun Chi.At this point the art consisted of only three techniques with many fighting applications and was called Lao San Dao(old three cuts)Chen then taught Wang Tsung Yueh who eventually changed the art by developing into 13 posture's,The modified forms were taught to Jiang fa,who lived in the nearby Chen Village.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kumkuat]

So the southern transmisson theory is a better theory you think?

[mantis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Geogarphically speaking, Chen style is considered being one of the southern schools of neijia quan. It is south of the Yollew river within the Henan province. Neijia styles, which are many, where active around Ming dynasty and are recorded in some documents. They are most active in the Hebei (north of Yellow River) and Henan (south of Yellow River). It is believed that Chen family had quite a few servicemen in the military up to officier grades, meaning they are literates. It is not far fatch to link the possibility of military training curriculum (most likely Tai Tzu Changquan at Ming's time) was used as a blue print combined with the Neijia principles that are popular within those regions and became what is now known as Taijiquan. We are now often forget the fact that many of the Chinese people back then couldn't not read or write. It's all orally passed on. When a tale gets tell over time it will become a myth. It's not linear. It is always twisted and intervined.
Chinese history is very complicated. Just the military practices of each dynasty along can cause huge headaches.[/quote]

I believe that CWT was said to have retired from the military and returned to farming. When the farm was busy, he helped out. When it's quiet (after harvest or at night as entertainment), he would practice martial arts. I think the word used was "jold" which could mean practice, learn, create, manifacture, etc... In the old days (especially in villages in Canton), the village would gather at night at the ancestoral hall and practice KF. After KF they would have night snack which usually is congee (a soup like dish that is make with rice.) That's how the term "have eaten congee at night" is used to describe someone who knows Kung Fu.

I would think it is quite possible that the southern transmission have a hand in the creation. Just that we don't know how big a role. But it is important enough that the Cheung San Fung myth is kept among most of the Yang and Ng lineages. I know style cross training doesn't fly with a lot of people, but in the Taijiquan's case, we certainly need to explore it.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[This message was edited by mantis108 on 09-09-01 at 05:10 PM.]

[Repulsive Monkey]

I perspnallt would never believe that Chen Wan-ting created Taiji, becasue he didn't, FACT! There are (tenuous maybe, yet obviously slight too)lineages that maintain teachings from Chang San-feng supposedly today in existence. This I can believe, as I'm sure (just with the Yang family too) that there is a degree of family politics involved in the Chen's need to propogate the Chen Wan-ting idea. My understanding was the Chang San-feng to Wang Tsung-yueh to Chiang-fa to Chen Chang-hsing to Yang Lu-chan (as far as Yang style is concerned) theory. I cannot see anything wrong with that. All the history surrounding the route of true lineage seems to be held covertly and to some degree with a sense of nebularity too. I expect there is no one single person alive today that can put hand on heart and tell the real truth. Although my ears are open if that person wants to speak up!

[RAF]

For years I thougt the the Zhang Sanfeng mythology was it. It added such a mysterious air about the art and the other explanations seemed so dry and boring. Then I saw a citation to this article on another board and read it (I had subscribed to the Journal but never bother to read this article) After reading it. the Zhang Sanfeng explanation seems even less plausible than Chen Wangting (who integrated principles). I guess we all have to grow up and accept a less magical thinking world (of course bagua is ripe for picking).

Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan
Stanley Henning

The Journal of Chen Style Taijquan Research Association of Hawaii, Autumn/Winter 1994. Vol. 2, No. 3 pp.1-7.

"The Zhang Sanfeng legend evolved out of during the Ming period (1368 - 1644), based on the close association of early Ming rulers with Taoism and Taoists priets, whose prophesies had supported the founder of the dynasty. Little is known abut Zhang except that he described as an eccentric, iternerant hermit with magic powers, who died once and came back to life, and whose life, based on varying accounts, spanned a period of over 300 years. Emperor Chengzu (1423-1404) spent considerable funds to reconstruct the wartorn monasteries on Mount Wudang, Zhang's favorite haunt and it is said that a 13 year search he initiated to find Zhang was acutally part of an elaborate cover story for a more urgent effort to locate Emperor Jianwen, the victim of a coup staged by CHengzu. Neither Emperor Jianwen or Zhang were ever found, but finally, . . . Emperor Yingzong canonized the elusive Zhang in 1459. Throughout this formative phase of the Zhang Sanfeng legend, there is no mention of zhang's involvement with martial arts (Seidel, Anna, "A Tosist Immortal of the Ming Dynasty: Chang San-feng," in WT de Bary & The Conference on Ming Thought, eds., SELF AND SOCIETY IN MING THOUGHT (NY: Columbia University, 1979) concludes hsi biographies and legends lack even the faintest allusion to his being a boxing master). THis lack of comment is significant as it was common practice to include this type of information in dynastic history biographies.

The earlies reference to Zhang Sanfeng as a boxing master is found in the EPTIAPH FOR WANG ZHENGNAN (1669) composed by Huang Zongxi, (1610 - 1695) but, as I pointed out in my 1981 article, the real significance of this piece at the time lay out not so much in its reference to boxing but in its anti-manchu symbolism. (p, 2)

He goes on to show how the dichotomy of internal (wudang) v external (shaolin) evolved out of the politics (non martial arts) during that time.

What put the icing on the cake for me is when Jou Tsung Hwa, founder of the Zhang Sanfeng Festival, admitted to me personally that Chen Wangting founded taiji and the festival was a way of uniting internal martial artists. Also Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Cheng Fu's right hand man, in one of his last articles fully acknowledged that Yang Lu Chan got his martial arts from the Chen Village without ever making any reference to Zhang Sanfeng and its mythology (although other disciples of Yang Lu CHan and Yang CHeng Fu makes this reference).

Every article supporting Zhang Sanfeng rests on the assumption that he existed. Regarding an individual developing the art, why is it any less feasible that Chen Wangting (after a military career of sorts) invents the art than an individual such as Zhang Sanfeng? Politics can work the other way: Yang lineage admits learning Chen taiji but then takes the wind out of the Chen family by saying they really didn't invent it. This provides the Yang Lineage with a greater sense of authority and an explanation as to why there public forms appear different from the Chen forms. The speculation can go on forever.

There are many more citations and articles but Zhang Sanfeng just doesn't seem to add up although ti would be great material for movie like Croucing Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

I think Jou had the best idea about celebrating him as the mythical wudang founder of the mysterious art of Taijiquan. Look how bane the alternative is: A dried up old garrison leader, approaching death and depressed invents a martial arts system that revitalizes the 20th/21st Century. Naw, wouldn't work. No potential movie script and no magic. Who is going to believe that?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Two points:
1) I too am and Yang stylist and the only truth I know is that I can trace my lineage to Yang Cheng-fu, and then back to his Grand father(of course!). I do agree with some of what you said. I'll only go as far as to say that Cheng Chang-hsing taught Yang Lu-chan, I wont romanticised anything before that (as far as solid truth/fact is concerned).

2) I take it that when you refer to the Late Jou Tsung-hwa that he DIDN'T get this information from his Yang style days. He was not an accepted disciple of Prof. Cheng Man-ching, and was in fact taught the short form by one of his senior students not directly by the Prof. himself.

[RAF]

Yang style was my first love and you never forget her. I studied Jou's earlier version of Yang taijiquan under a student by the name of Tom Phillips and later went to the Farm for a number of summers. I still think its fantastic even though I don't fully believe the Zhang SangFeng mythology. The principles that Chen Wangting may have integrated had to come from some daoist base, so Zhang Sanfeng only symbolizes the daoist roots.

Sometimes you need a mythology to make it useful. I was thinking about some of Yang Cheng Fu's students like Zheng Manqing and others who attribute the Yang style to Zhang Sangfeng.

[EARTH DRAGON]

The history of tai chi has been handed down from generation to generation for thousands of years and also through traditional writings of tai chi which are collectively referred to as the "classics" according to legend tai chi was created at the end of the Sung Dynasty by a Shaolin monk named Chang Sen Feng, a shaolin disciple.Chang left the temple because he felt the fighting techniques became to harsh and strength oriented, in order to find a suitable Martial art for himself and other monks he journeyed to the Wu tang mountain and spent many years there as a hermit .He observed the habits of Long lived animals such as turtles and cranes, learning and adapting these natural movements to the mechanics of the human body and connecting them with the principles of Taoism Chen Sen Feng he developed this grand ultimate system called Tai Chi Chuan. Eventually Chen returned to the shaolin temple were his new Martial art that was often called (wu tang boxing ) was taught to Chang Sun Chi.At this point the art consisted of only three techniques with many fighting applications and was called Lao San Dao(old three cuts)Chen then taught Wang Tsung Yueh who eventually change the art by developing into 13 posture's,The modified forms were taught to Jiang fa,who lived in the nearby Chen Village.He then taught Chen Wang Ting who lived In the Shan Dung province and became an accomplished martial artist. He returned to the Chen Village in1644 and began to take the Wu Tang boxing methods learned from Jiang fa and refine & perfect them, he added postures from Sung Tai Tzu Chuan and various Shaolin forms.Then combined the internal health theories of passages of blood,air flow and energy, and this new art became Chen Chia Chuan , now called Chen Tai Chi Chuan.For generations the art of Chen Tai Chi was a secret heritage of just a small number of family members. Almost exclusively parent passed the knowledge onto the children.During the 1700's Chen Wang Ting's stlye had developed into the five routines of Paoi Chuoi , a 32 and a 108 posture Tai Chi form, also Duan Da ( short strike) form. By the end of the century the art had been passed down to Chen Chang Shing who untied and simplified the various routines.Word began to spread of about Chen's martial art and in the early 1800'S reached Yang Lu Tsan (1799 to 1872)Yang was a master of Hung Quan Shaolin stlye,and became fascinated with stories of a new internal art and its health benefits.Eager to learn Yang travel to the Chen Village to seek instruction from Chen . Officially no one other than family members were taught so he was forced to learn in secret. He became the janitor of the Chen Village, and secretly observed as they practiced in the middle of the night. Yang practised continuously repeating one movement 1000 times a night. 20 years later Yang moved to Beijing were he began teaching tai chi ,he noticed that the Chen style was very difficult to learn for the average practitioner So he modified it for health, and ease of flow,this new style he called "Yang style"it is still the most common of Styles practiced today. Yang's top student was a man named Wu Ching Chan (1831-1902) an accomplished master of the swai chiao style, Wu began to build on the foundation of Chen Tai Chi.He added throwing & grappling techniques and focused on protecting ones body,while retaining its soft natural characteristics. This resulted in a new and improved style,thus named Wu stlye. He passed this art onto his son Wu Ching To (1872 to 1972) and in 1928 moved to Shanghai. There he met Wei Shao Tung (1896 to 1982) Grand Master and third generation of Ba Bu Tang Lang (8 step praying mantis) Grand Master Wei and Wu, both being leaders of their arts, taught each fully holding nothing back.Master Wei moved to Taiwan, The history of tai chi has been handed down from generation to generation for thousands of years and also through traditional writings of tai chi which are collectively referred to as the "classics" according to legend tai chi was created at the end of the Sung Dynasty by a Shaolin monk named Chang Sen Feng, a shaolin disciple.Chang left the temple because he felt the fighting techniques became to harsh and strength oriented, in order to find a suitable Martial art for himself and other monks he journeyed to the Wu tang mountain and spent many years there as a hermit .He observed the habits of Long lived animals such as turtles and cranes, learning and adapting these natural movements to the mechanics of the human body and connecting them with the principles of Taoism Chen Sen Feng he developed this grand ultimate system called Tai Chi Chuan. Eventually Chen returned to the shaolin temple were his new Martial art that was often called (wu tang boxing ) was taught to Chang Sun Chi.At this point the art consisted of only three techniques with many fighting applications and was called Lao San Dao(old three cuts)Chen then taught Wang Tsung Yueh who eventually change the art by developing into 13 posture's,The modified forms were taught to Jiang fa,who lived in the nearby Chen Village.He then taught Chen Wang Ting who lived In the Shan Dung province and became an accomplished martial artist. He returned to the Chen Village in1644 and began to take the Wu Tang boxing methods learned from Jiang fa and refine & perfect them, he added postures from Sung Tai Tzu Chuan and various Shaolin forms.Then combined the internal health theories of passages of blood,air flow and energy, and this new art became Chen Chia Chuan , now called Chen Tai Chi Chuan.For generations the art of Chen Tai Chi was a secret heritage of just a small number of family members. Almost exclusively parent passed the knowledge onto the children.During the 1700's Chen Wang Ting's stlye had developed into the five routines of Paoi Chuoi , a 32 and a 108 posture Tai Chi form, also Duan Da ( short strike) form. By the end of the century the art had been passed down to Chen Chang Shing who untied and simplified the various routines.Word began to spread of about Chen's martial art and in the early 1800'S reached Yang Lu Tsan (1799 to 1872)Yang was a master of Hung Quan Shaolin stlye,and became fascinated with stories of a new internal art and its health benefits.Eager to learn Yang travel to the Chen Village to seek instruction from Chen . Officially no one other than family members were taught so he was forced to learn in secret. He became the janitor of the Chen Village, and secretly observed as they practiced in the middle of the night. Yang practised continuously repeating one movement 1000 times a night. 20 years later Yang moved to Beijing were he began teaching tai chi ,he noticed that the Chen style was very difficult to learn for the average practitioner So he modified it for health, and ease of flow,this new style he called "Yang style"it is still the most common of Styles practiced today. Yang's top student was a man named Wu Ching Chan (1831-1902) an accomplished master of the swai chiao style, Wu began to build on the foundation of Chen Tai Chi.He added throwing & grappling techniques and focused on protecting ones body,while retaining its soft natural characteristics. This resulted in a new and improved style,thus named Wu stlye. He passed this art onto his son Wu Ching To (1872 to 1972) and in 1928 moved to Shanghai. There he met Wei Shao Tung (1896 to 1982) Grand Master and third generation of Ba Bu Tang Lang (8 step praying mantis) Grand Master Wei and Wu, both being leaders of their arts, taught each fully holding nothing back.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[PlasticSquirrel]

i remember in a thread from awhile ago that sam wiley posted a translated snippet out of one of yang chengfu's books. it was a transmission from yang lu-chan that included the entire lineage from zhang sanfeng to chen changxing. maybe he can post that again.

[RAF]

The problem with those lineage trees is that none of it can be indepently documented.

Thats why I prefer to see what the historians have found. The Henning article has reasonable citations from historical sources other than the oral history of martial arts families.

As far as I can tell, there has yet to be an objective documentation of Zhang Sanfeng. Accoring to the Yang lineages, everything stands or falls on his existence. There is a oral history of Jiang Fa which completely contradicts what was posted by Earth Dragon. So the arguments and speculation go on.

Fu Zhong Wen, who was the lineage inheritor of Yang Cheng Fu, to my knowledge has never made the link of Zhang Sanfeng to the Yang style although Zheng Manqing has done this. Ben Lo continues this line of thought and it is found throughout Douglas's Wiles Touchstone.

Again, everything hinges on whether Zhang Sanfeng existed and if he was tied to the martial arts. Every piece of evidence supporting the linkage that I have seen is based strictly on oral tradition. I have never seen him cited as a shaolin monk but always as a daoist monk so the previous post came as a surprise.

[EARTH DRAGON]

first: I would like to apologize for the doubled history I copied the same section twice.
second: The history has been told to me by my sifu who speaks broken english, also before him there was no english translation of our lineage. But all I have to go by is what he has told me and as RAF said oral translations from many many years. But to the best of my knowledge that is the history of Tai Chi Chuan. I'm sure other lineages have differences in their family trees and I would love to hear them, but for now I can only believe in what my sifu has told me.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Repulsive Monkey]

I wonder if Fu Zhong-wen's ideas were voiced at the same time as Prof. Ceng Man-ching's? I always heard that Fu Zhong-wen was always critical of the Prof. It was either he or Dong Ying-jie who claimed that the Prof. was only a) an average student, b) not really a disciple of Yang Cheng-fu and c) only with him for 6 months. This of course is rubbish and was probably perpetuated by the Yang politics of the time as Cheng was caught getting lessons from a Taoist monk at the time, which some say was the true foundation for his Push-hands skill.

[Royal Dragon]

The founder of my style was the same Emperor that founded the Sung Dynasty in 960 AD. (Chao, Kuang Yin also known as Sung TAi Tzu). He is credited in developing the original 32 Long Fist form of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan style.

Now, HE was a direct student of Chen Po, Founder of Li Hu, Ba Fa (Six Harmonys, Eight Methods). My perticular line comes from the Emperor's direct family, and contains a "Closed" door internal system, semmingly based on Li Hu, Ba Fa and Taoist Natural fist. WE have the 8 original Taji Postures and a 64 move form suposedly descended from the Emperor himself. We also have a 37 move form, but I suspect it is newer addition by the family.

Now, if you go to Wai Lun Choi's web site, he claims Chen Zhan Feng was a second generation student of Chen Po's teachings. I also found another site claiming Chen Zhang Feng was a fourth generation student of Chen Po's teachings.

Now, it seems funny to me that TWO students of Chen po's line (Chao, Kuang Yin, founder of Tai Tzu AND Chen Zhang Feng's descended lines) have Taji systems with virtually identical cores. Both line were suposed to be seperate evolutions, right? so why do the contain the same technology and movements?

I submit, that Chen Po, founder of Li Hu, Ba Fa is either the REAL founder of Taji Quan, or the oldest single most root of it's transmition to ancient and modern times.

Yang Jwing Ming claims in his Taji Quan book that Taji Quan like forms are DOCUMENTED as far back as 600 AD. with 37 and 64 move forms already existing.

Also, It has always been stated that Taji is based in the theorys of the I Ching, right? that book is like 2000+ years old. It stands to reason that they MUST have had the core movement,or else how could they have realised the theory enough to put it in a book?

Coments anyone?


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