Is Erle Montaigue decent?

[IronFist]

I've heard mixed things about him. Is his skill good? Is he a good teacher? Are his videos good?

I've got one of his dim mak encyclopedias and it seems pretty well written and informative.

Iron

[Braden]

For whatever it's worth, he's got my thumbs up on all accounts.

[OldFatBaldGuy]

He has a large, and devoted following, and many more times that number of detractors. I heard 2nd hand that Mike Sigman once made the comment that he didn't think much of EM's Taiji, but thought he would be an extremely difficult opponent to face. (If that's not true Mike, apologies!) Again, that was 2nd information from someone who knows Mike personally.

I've found Erle to be a genuine, caring individual who is very willing to share information and in spite of all the tapes he has for sale, he gives away a lot of info and products. I once ordered a tape from him, and he sent me another one to augment the training in the one I ordered at no charge. The down-side I've found is he is very highly opinionated and doesn't care who's toes he steps on.....say, he'd fit right in here!

I can't comment on his Taiji, but he gets my vote as a good, decent person.

Respectfully.

OldFatBaldGuy

"Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change."

[Losttrak]

"The down-side I've found is he is very highly opinionated and doesn't care who's toes he steps on.....say, he'd fit right in here!"

Lol What is martial arts w/o **** and vinegar?

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

[YMS]

I guess it depends on who you ask. I know somone who came from EM taiji after studying with him for several years and supposedly he didnt learn much. He was saying that he is real knowledgeable fellow but he held back alot and you would have to be with him for a very long time before he would give you anything you could really use.

Thats not my opinion but this is what i heard.

RaVeR

[Nexus]

I have seen many of his videos, and actually I have probably 20+ of them (hes a good mate) although I do not use his videos as my learning guide. Although he is one of the few if not the only person who has Yang Lu'chans old yang style on video with fa-jing movements and the jumping movements etc.

He also has a yang cheng-fu video (Worth learning first IMO) that includes basic qi gong.

He also has 4 qi gong video series, including advanced qi gong methods such as reverse breathing, and the top in, bottom out and vise versa etc.

Also he has san shou videos, push hands and such and all of these videos contain a quality that is certainly better then "Average" for taiji.

One must keep in mind that many of these videos he made in 1985-1986, and he has written most of his websites articles and info since then.

He may not have been necessarily a "master of 30+ years" when his videos were developed, but they do lay an excellent ground work and are incredibly detailed.

I would say they are some of the most detailed videos I have ever seen, in some cases too-detailed!! and it would be diffucult, if not impossible to not learn at least something from them.

I would recommend you getting his yang chengfu video as it includes basic qi gong and the ycf long form and is a good starter. That way you can get the feel for his video style and not need to pay for his common (4-video packages) which most of his more advanced techniques require. He has hours of great information.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[gazza99]

I have personally trained with Erle, as well as studied his videos and books. After years of hard work I am now one of his instructors.
I have never met a better martial artist, nor seen a better system. I have taught people that have been training twice as long as I have been alive, and they have thanked me for the enlightenment I have given them, that is all because of Erle.
I cant even express the gratitude I have for the things he has given me, if any of you are ever in Oklahoma city, Ill be glad to give anyone a free private lesson. Thus far I havent had anyone unimpressed with Erles stuff.
Regards
Gary R.

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[brassmonkey]

From skimming numerous posts by Earle's students on here and reading his free online book I've noted a few unique points(I've saved my commentary since I'm a beginner and know nothing but I'll let the readers draw theyre own conclusions):

1. His students will tell you that noone's else's tai chi looks like his for good reason. Earle is the sole inheritor of the true transmission of tai chi from Yang Lu Chan back to Wudang skipping Chen village contribution originally named Dim Mak.
2. There is 2 Tai chi forms:
a. Yin form: popularized by Yang ChenFu,
this is a chi kung form
b. Yang form: Yang Shou Hou's form, this is
the fighting form
3. Earle's tai chi system utilizes the mindset of
a reptillian brain
4. The attacks rely heavily on fa jing characterized by a violent twisting of the waist and a snapping sound created by the hand.
5. Internal Connections: I've read of none except if you count # 4.
6. In fighting there is no yielding but in push hands there is for some reason I can't recall?
7. The system is technique based with no emphasis on the classics.
8. Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much which makes you gain weight, I can't recall the posture that makes you lose weight, you can wade through Sam Wiley's, Gary's and Chris Mckinley's posts for more on this. Please correct me if im off on any of these points or expand on them.

[Braden]

Erle doesn't claim to be "the sole inheritor of the true transmission of tai chi," he only claims that his is a different transmission than what you generally see in the west. I've spoken with a couple other groups who claim similar lineage to Erle, but are unaffiliated with him, and are teaching essentially the same curriculum, including the old long form, the fast sanshou form, and the taiji short stick form.

Erle's methods use yielding in fighting. For example, his "Post" drills which he calls the single most important drills for understanding internal body mechanics are all about yielding. All he says is that you don't yield in the large-scale sense in real combat. You don't step back, you don't retreat, you don't dodge, you don't even yield subtley unless it's part of an attack. On a related note, he also says you shouldn't block.

"The system is technique based with no emphasis on the classics."

I'm not sure where you got this.

[brassmonkey]

"Erle doesn't claim to be "the sole inheritor of the true transmission of tai chi," he only claims that his is a different transmission than what you generally see in the west."
-He may not use those exact words but he certainly portrays it by using words like watered down and further watered down when talking of YCF's form then CMC's. He takes Chen village out of the equation altogether. So who's left? Well if Wu became more popular and could take $ out of his pocket you'd hear him downgrades those Styles.

"I've spoken with a couple other groups who claim similar lineage to Erle, but are unaffiliated with him, and are teaching essentially the same curriculum, including the old long form, the fast sanshou form, and the taiji short stick form."
-Its funny I remember reading somewhere on the net about a time Earle was claiming to teach a stick form originating from a famous Master until he found out the family of the Master had moved to the West and was refuting that theyre father ever taught such a form or had 1 but who knows with internet stories what is true like the 1 you'll hear on the BJJ forums about Renzo Gracie's visit to Australia.

"Erle's methods use yielding in fighting. For example, his "Post" drills which he calls the single most important drills for understanding internal body mechanics are all about yielding. All he says is that you don't yield in the large-scale sense in real combat. You don't step back, you don't retreat, you don't dodge, you don't even yield subtley unless it's part of an attack. On a related note, he also says you shouldn't block."
-I don't know what to make of this, first you say he does use yielding then you have a quote where he says you shouldn't yield at all in a fight. To practice yielding in practice but not use it in fighting makes little sense to me perhaps I'm missing something?

"The system is technique based with no emphasis on the classics."

I'm not sure where you got this.
-I think its pretty clear. Now care to comment on points 2,3,4,5,8?

[IronFist]

Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much which makes you gain weight, I can't recall the posture that makes you lose weight

Holy ****e, certain positions and forms make you gain weight? How is this? Do they mess with your chi and metabolism or thyroid or something?

That's messed up. There's a posture that makes you lose weight? Why don't they market it as a diet program?

Iron

[Braden]

"He may not use those exact words..."

No, he doesn't. It would be best to attack him for things he actually claims, rather than things you which you decide for some reason that he implies.

"...by using words like watered down and further watered down..."

You're right. He does have a generally low opinion of taiji in the west. So do I. He doesn't have a universally low opinion of practitioners of certain lineages (despite what you hear his internet proponents say, and despite what you hear his internent opponents say). In fact, he often teaches a YCF form himself!

However, it's pretty common for practitioners of one version of a style to attack practitioners of another version. In fact, isn't this what YOU'RE doing right now?

"Its funny I remember reading somewhere on the net about a time Earle was claiming to teach a stick form..."

He still teaches it, as do many others from that side of the Yang family. Sounds legit to me.

"I don't know what to make of this, first you say he does use yielding then you have a quote where he says you shouldn't yield at all in a fight. To practice yielding in practice but not use it in fighting makes little sense to me perhaps I'm missing something?"

Yes, you're missing something. I'll try to explain again. His idea is not that you shouldn't yield. It's that you shouldn't "yield, period." That is, yielding isn't in and of itself a technique, in his eyes; but still can be used as part of an offensive technique. For example, when you just yield, you may pull away from an attacker. In Erle's philosophy, he says this is just inviting him to attack again. On the other hand, you can yield as part of an overall attack. For example, if I am standing normally, and someone comes at me from the side with an attack (let's say he pushes my shoulder), what I may do is to ground the force into my structure while turning to face my attacker, using the energy he has 'given' me to adopt the basic bagua posture, which in itself becomes an attack. This is an excellent example of yielding (in fact, without ever making contact with the attack itself, I have made determined attackers fall over themselves using this method, through yielding alone). Yet it is not a 'yield, period', but rather, a yielding as part of a single offensive manouver. This is the sort of yielding Erle advocates. Do you understand now?

"I think its pretty clear."

No, it's not pretty clear. Where does he ignore the classics? Certainly, in lipservice alone he does not, for he avidly teaches the guidelines for practice. You could argue that he does not manifest them; however you'd have to argue something for it to be convincing. As for technique-based, again it would be nice to see an example of this allegation.

"Now care to comment on points 2,3,4,5,8?"

"2. There is 2 Tai chi forms:"

I've never heard him use that nomenclature before, but yes, he is fond of the idea of two taiji forms. So are the majority of taiji teachers outside of CMC. What's your point?

"3. Earle's tai chi system utilizes the mindset of
a reptillian brain."

Again, I wasn't sure what your point was. He's got some ideas about a different mindset for fighting and some ideas on how to train for that mindset.

"4. The attacks rely heavily on fa jing characterized by a violent twisting of the waist and a snapping sound created by the hand."

Yes, he stresses fajing. His fajing I've seen doesn't exhibit much external violent twisting of the wait, nor snapping of the hand, unless it hits something (except in the sense of the meat of the palm snapping in and out, which to my understand is an integral part of proper fajing).

"5. Internal Connections"

Again, you didn't make much of a specific critique, so it's kind of hard to respond to.

"8. Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much..."

I've never heard Erle claim this. Perhaps you could provide a reference.

[brassmonkey]

"He may not use those exact words..."
No, he doesn't. It would be best to attack him for things he actually claims, rather than things you which you decide for some reason that he implies.

-This is the vibe I have gotten from him I could be wrong but I dont think so.

"...by using words like watered down and further watered down..."

You're right. He does have a generally low opinion of taiji in the west. So do I. He doesn't have a universally low opinion of practitioners of certain lineages (despite what you hear his internet proponents say, and despite what you hear his internent opponents say). In fact, he often teaches a YCF form himself!

-He has a low opinion of taiji in the east also as I have read but this doesnt matter.

However, it's pretty common for practitioners of one version of a style to attack practitioners of another version. In fact, isn't this what YOU'RE doing right now?

-Well originally I only typed in points unique to his system and if you felt these points to be good ones then they would be compliments as I hear people knock my lineage for certain points I take as compliments I simply see the detractors in these cases as not understanding the why, so you should take my points as compliments to your style. Of course I interjected a few comments that makes it clear what I think. Personally I think he's on the same level as Sin The and Ashida Kim but my views can change.

"Its funny I remember reading somewhere on the net about a time Earle was claiming to teach a stick form..."

He still teaches it, as do many others from that side of the Yang family. Sounds legit to me.

-I wasn't referring to a Yang family stick form. If you can find some old archives of Jareks you can read the same story I read.

"I don't know what to make of this, first you say he does use yielding then you have a quote where he says you shouldn't yield at all in a fight. To practice yielding in practice but not use it in fighting makes little sense to me perhaps I'm missing something?"

Yes, you're missing something. I'll try to explain again. His idea is not that you shouldn't yield. It's that you shouldn't "yield, period." That is, yielding isn't in and of itself a technique, in his eyes; but still can be used as part of an offensive technique. For example, when you just yield, you may pull away from an attacker. In Erle's philosophy, he says this is just inviting him to attack again. On the other hand, you can yield as part of an overall attack. For example, if I am standing normally, and someone comes at me from the side with an attack (let's say he pushes my shoulder), what I may do is to ground the force into my structure while turning to face my attacker, using the energy he has 'given' me to adopt the basic bagua posture, which in itself becomes an attack. This is an excellent example of yielding (in fact, without ever making contact with the attack itself, I have made determined attackers fall over themselves using this method, through yielding alone). Yet it is not a 'yield, period', but rather, a yielding as part of a single offensive manouver. This is the sort of yielding Erle advocates. Do you understand now?

-No I dont. I'd probably have to see it. First it sounds like you root which is clearly not yielding and worse yet if that push was a punch I'd like to see you absorb that one into your structure. Then as if the person pushing after feeling you root is just going to keep doing the same thing after feeling this and allow you to deflect and turn. You also said by just yielding you may pull away from an attacker, read the classics and you'll probably find words like sticking along with a couple other useful ones.

"I think its pretty clear."

No, it's not pretty clear. Where does he ignore the classics? Certainly, in lipservice alone he does not, for he avidly teaches the guidelines for practice. You could argue that he does not manifest them; however you'd have to argue something for it to be convincing. As for technique-based, again it would be nice to see an example of this allegation.

-Well my last entry should be a start for you to think about. I think I've been talking about some of the principles throughout this without giving away too much what I emphasize in my practice, as I'm not teaching I wont comment further.

"Now care to comment on points 2,3,4,5,8?"

"2. There is 2 Tai chi forms:"

I've never heard him use that nomenclature before, but yes, he is fond of the idea of two taiji forms. So are the majority of taiji teachers outside of CMC. What's your point?

-My point being that its ridiculous calling YCF's form as being a chi kung form and not for fighting.

"3. Earle's tai chi system utilizes the mindset of
a reptillian brain."

Again, I wasn't sure what your point was. He's got some ideas about a different mindset for fighting and some ideas on how to train for that mindset.

-Only pointing out unique qualities of Montaigues system. I don't think its part of any traditional Tai Chi Chuan system but if he can improve it all the better for his students.

"4. The attacks rely heavily on fa jing characterized by a violent twisting of the waist and a snapping sound created by the hand."

Yes, he stresses fajing. His fajing I've seen doesn't exhibit much external violent twisting of the wait, nor snapping of the hand, unless it hits something (except in the sense of the meat of the palm snapping in and out, which to my understand is an integral part of proper fajing).

-I only go by what his students have wrote on here and what I read in his book and its always this type of shaking that some of the Tai Chi greats of the past admonished there students over...Chen Fake comes to mind. Maybe you need some private lessons from Earle himself as he says in the online book that the snapping cannot be fully explained in writing but in person.
"5. Internal Connections"

Again, you didn't make much of a specific critique, so it's kind of hard to respond to.

-I think its pretty self evident. His system relies on turning the waist and making a snapping sound with the hand...what this has to do with fa jing you tell me.

"8. Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much..."

I've never heard Erle claim this. Perhaps you could provide a reference.

-This is what 1 of his students claimed on here, wade through some of Gary's, Chris's and Sams posts. My post's here is simply for those who may think of studying Tai Chi Chuan and wouldn't want them to confuse it with what Earle does. Man I'm giving Sam Wiley a run for his money on the length of my post...time to practice for me. I hope I don't have to respond to many more of these it even got confusing for me on this one reading my comment to your previous post then your comment to my comment then finally me commenting on your last comment.

[Braden]

"Well originally I only typed in points unique to his system..."

And most of what you wrote was wrong. I was just clarifying.

"...so you should take my points as compliments to your style."

I should have mentioned, I'm not one of Erle's students.

"I wasn't referring to a Yang family stick form."

Well that's the only traditional stick form he has ever taught. I read the thread on Jarek's when it was posted, and Erle hasn't changed anything since then.

"No I dont. I'd probably have to see it."

Yes, you would. One of the main problems with discussing the more subtle skills.

"First it sounds like you root...as if the person pushing after feeling you root is just going to keep doing the same thing..."

Yes, it is rooting. To my understand, everything requires rooting. The reason the person pushing 'keeps doing the same thing' is because of the yielding. You root/accept their force, but you do it dynamically. They should never be able to feel your root in such a move. We may have some trouble connecting on this topic, as I am a bagua practitioner, not a taiji one.

"You also said by just yielding you may pull away from an attacker, read the classics and you'll probably find words like sticking along with a couple other useful ones."

I've read the classics and I'm familiar with sticking. But thank you for the advice all the same. I was trying to illustrate the difference between a pure yielding movement and yielding executed simultaneously with attack. To this end, I was using hyperbole. I apologize if it was misleading.

"...as I'm not teaching I wont comment further."

Of course that's your choice. I don't see the point in publically posting an attack on someone if you're not willing to explain it, let alone back it up with example though.

"My point being that its ridiculous calling YCF's form as being a chi kung form and not for fighting."

Could you provide a reference from where he said that? He DOES say that during practice of the form, you shouldn't be actively thinking of the moves as specific techniques. Do you disagree with that? Contrary to your assertion that he believes the form is not for fighting, he does teach applications from it. However, he does suggest that the sanshou form is more adequately suited to a more direct interpretation of applications than the long form. Do you disagree with that?

"His system relies on turning the waist and making a snapping sound with the hand."

Of course his fajing relies upon a shaking of the dantien. Yours doesn't? As far as overt violent twisting of the waist, of course this shouldn't be required for proper fajing. I believe Erle would agree.

I understand your problems with Erle. He is unfortunately surrounded by alot of sillyness.

However, when you break down your arguments, they all spring from "I heard on the internet that...", "I got the impression that..." and "I heard one of Erle's supporters say that..."; none of which is anything Erle could legitimately be held responsable for.

The man has publically posted quite a remarkable amount of information on his opinions. On his website, there is hundreds of pages on his throughts on everything from sex and what he eats, to his approach to martial arts. There was probably a couple hours of video clips showing him teaching, performing forms, etc. There are maybe 20 full length books publically posted. If you want to lay critique upon Erle there is PLENTY of first-hand information you can use to substantiate your arguments. He also religiously answers emails from complete strangers on any topic. I don't see any excuse to attack him based on third-hand information.

Here are some statements I would agree to concerning Erle:

-He has some inexcusably over-zealous supporters making ludicrous statements.
-He is eccentric, opinionated, and undiplomatic.
-He makes up funny names for stuff he teaches.
-He focuses heavily on certain, limited aspects of the arts he teaches.
-He markets some of his stuff too well, or too poorly, depending on your perspective.
-His history is overtly flawed.

However, I don't think any of these are ****ing faults.

I strongly believe in open forums to critique instructors, especially of the neijia, as it is so difficult for beginners to adequately judge their options.

However, especially on the internet, open forums rapidly disintegrate into witch-hunts based entirely on heresay. You can prevent this from happening by basing your critiques on first-hand information. In Erle's case, he has provided plenty of such information for us to base our critiques on.

[brassmonkey]

Well originally I only typed in points unique to his system..."
And most of what you wrote was wrong. I was just clarifying.

-Well I disagree but you make some valid points later in this post about what his students may say and what he does, my information was based not only on his 1 online book I read but also what his students say so I stand by what I wrote.

"No I dont. I'd probably have to see it."

Yes, you would. One of the main problems with discussing the more subtle skills.

"First it sounds like you root...as if the person pushing after feeling you root is just going to keep doing the same thing..."

Yes, it is rooting. To my understand, everything requires rooting. The reason the person pushing 'keeps doing the same thing' is because of the yielding. You root/accept their force, but you do it dynamically. They should never be able to feel your root in such a move. We may have some trouble connecting on this topic, as I am a bagua practitioner, not a taiji one.

-Well when I used the word rooting I was really talking about absorbing into the ground and not so much as a root to the ground.

However, when you break down your arguments, they all spring from "I heard on the internet that...", "I got the impression that..." and "I heard one of Erle's supporters say that..."; none of which is anything Erle could legitimately be held responsable for.

-Well alot of my arguments come from students of his whom he's authorized to teach. Maybe I go too far assuming that his senior students would be a accurate reflection of him, then again some of my points come straight from his book.

The man has publically posted quite a remarkable amount of information on his opinions. On his website, there is hundreds of pages on his throughts on everything from sex and what he eats, to his approach to martial arts. There was probably a couple hours of video clips showing him teaching, performing forms, etc. There are maybe 20 full length books publically posted. If you want to lay critique upon Erle there is PLENTY of first-hand information you can use to substantiate your arguments. He also religiously answers emails from complete strangers on any topic. I don't see any excuse to attack him based on third-hand information.

-Well his senior students and he himself is hardly third hand information. I'll see if I can find these other 19 books, to be fair perhaps what I have read of his methodology perhaps only a small part of the big picture of what he does.


However, especially on the internet, open forums rapidly disintegrate into witch-hunts based entirely on heresay. You can prevent this from happening by basing your critiques on first-hand information. In Erle's case, he has provided plenty of such information for us to base our critiques on.

-Agreed

[IronFist]

>>>>>Yang Cheng Fu died early because he became obese by practicing Repulse Monkey too much which makes you gain weight, I can't recall the posture that makes you lose weight

Holy ****e, certain positions and forms make you gain weight? How is this? Do they mess with your chi and metabolism or thyroid or something?

That's messed up. There's a posture that makes you lose weight? Why don't they market it as a diet program?

Iron <<<<<

[Stranger]

I don't know enough about internal Chinese Martial Arts to comment on much of what is going on but...

brassmonkey,

You claim you are not attacking Erle, just citing the unique characteristics of his style. Dude, you obviously have an ax to grind as just a couple of weeks ago you made a troll post wherein you begged for help from Erle's students because you claimed that you shot up from 130 lbs. to over 500lbs. doing Erle's forms. Funny, I think the claim of your new weight is absolute BS. I defy you to prove that you weigh that much now.
If you want to attack the system, then have the sack to say that you are. Don't come off like you are just talking about unique characteristics with no attacking intentions, when you post unprovoked trolling threads on this very forum.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Nutt'nhunny]

Bull****, bull****, bull****. Erle is not the real deal. He knows some stuff, but there are way, way, way better sources. Some that have another main style like. I would learn from mike patterson before I learned tai chi from erle. He doesn't have a clue, no idea of the big picture. Lots of dubious trivia. Like Yang Lu Chan fat from doing Repulsive monkey? I don't think so. Thats a nice kidney massage and gives you a killer solid stance for fighting, especially throwing wthich is what that movement is all about, but not in the obvious way its presented. Getting fat has to do with GAS general adaption syndrome. You get accostomed to your workout and gain weight.

[patriot]

Erle would be a lot more decent if he covers up his bare feet.

[gazza99]

WOW,honeysmacks just made the most intellegent arguement!! Thanks for the enlightenment! I bet after 5 min. of training with Erle or one of his instructors your story would be different...
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Fu-Pow]

Holding a Taiji posture cannot make you fat. Take it from me....B.S. in Biochemistry.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[joedoe]

I've heard mixed things about Erle Montague. Never met or trained with they guy so I can't really say.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[gazza99]

Honeysmacks you are a complete moron, have you ever trained with Erle?
"Erle is not the real deal"
Sorry but I know from personal experiance that Erle IS the real deal,
I suppose if you prefer david Caridine that is your problem. You have no right to speak so authoritativly about someone when you have such limited experiance yourself, Id wager Erle would wipe the floor with you and your sifu without having to put his morning coffee down.

So in summation go F##K yourself.

I appologize to everyone about the tone of this post im just a bit angry in general lately..
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Nexus]

Gary, if you are angry, it is probably an issue you are having internally (ie. the mind). Taiji balances many issues, but not all. I suggest you consult some form of compassion meditation, as anger is associated with the "liver" but also counteracted towards when one is giving attention to the heart (energy) center. If this problem continues, you may wish to to do some 3-centered meditation, (sitting) that is, as one should not neglect the sitting meditation by just doing taijiquan (standing) all the time.

Just a thought, hope everything goes well for you physically, emotionally, spiritually.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[dedalus]

Cheng Fu *was* a bit on the large side, but it was more likely from eating too many monkeys than from repulsing them.

[dedalus]

Incidentally, I doubt Erle would wipe the floor with anyone. For one thing he's too nice a guy, and for another he's already got children ;-)

[Guandi]

>Id wager Erle would wipe the floor with you and
>your sifu

I have not read anything from his sifu here in the forum, so I think maybe you should not expand your anger to his sifu. He has probably nothing to do with what honeysmacks is saying here.

Guandi

[gazza99]

Nexus,
you very right, I have been working entirly to much due to recent events and have negected my qi-gong.
Dedalus..Guandi, Of course Erle is to nice and would not consider it, I was just making a crude point.
But perhaps honeysmacks sifu does have something to do with it? It seems that teachers influence greatly how their students respect others. Well I suppose I can be an As##### at times, and ERle is totally nice, so your probably right :)
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Sam Wiley]

Repulse Monkey treats the liver and gall bladder, and as far as I know is in no way connected to weight gain or loss. The posture Erle associates with weight gain and loss is Fist Under Elbow. Done the way it is done in Yang Cheng-fu's form, it supposedly helps you gain weight, and done the way it is in Yang Lu-chan's form, it supposedly helps you lose weight. However, it is not the the qigong itself that will make you lose or gain weight, according to Erle. I'm not sure how to explain this, except to say that doing it YCF's way can make some people feel very yin and make them not want to do anything, and that doing it YLC's way makes you want to go out and take on the world. My theory on this is that YLC's way raises some yang energy and you want to go out and do something active, and that YCF's way either does not raise the energy or calms it so that you are less active. Having practiced both ways of doing this posture, I can say I do indeed feel like going out and doing something active after doing the posture YLC's way and I feel like lounging around after doing it YCF's way. The only sure way to lose weight and keep it off is to get up and exercise. There is no way doing a qigong is going to make you lose weight on its own.

Yang Cheng-fu himself did not get fat just because he practiced it the way he did. There had to have been other factors. And to my knowledge Erle has never said that YCF got fat because of that.

Nor has Erle ever claimed to be the sole inheritor of true Taiji or anything like that.

Iron Fist,
In answer to your question, Erle is extremely controversial, and because of that his system is as well. He has stepped on people's toes so many times that many people have grudges against him. There are even some out there who have grudges against me because of some of the things I have said. I have even gotten hate e-mails from people because of some of them. Erle is, however, a decent person, and very nice to boot. There are sometimes when I am simply astounded by his generosity. For instance, at his last seminar in New Jersey, although it was supposed to be on a few specific things, he took the time to demonstrate the first third of the Old Yang Style, and thus answered many questions, both asked and unasked, including some of my own. He didn't have to go over that form, the seminar was not on it, but he demonstrated it at its internal level to give people something more than what they thought they were getting. And he often gives tapes away to people, sometimes several at a time, and usually volunteering them himself. That may not seem like a big thing to many, but he makes money with those tapes and his books. He does it because he wants people to get some good information, even if he has to give it away for free. (Actually, he used to teach for free.) And these are videos he has put a lot of time and effort into, putting things down in very minute detail. I guess what I'm saying is that yes, he is a good teacher, and yes, his videos are good. And having seen what he can do first hand, I would say his skill is good as well. There may be better teachers out there with better info, but I have yet to find them. :)

*********

[RAF]

In one of the older volumes of Journal of Asian Maftial Arts, there is a comparision of Yang Cheng Fu's earlier postures and his latter. In his earlier postures, he was as skinny as a rail. Without an autopsy one will never quite know how he died but there is a good chance he contracted Hepatitus of some sorts and had a liver failure. It was also reported that Chen Fake (Journal of Chen's Taichi) that died of liver cancer which also can arise from a hepatitus infection. No matter what you play, infectious diseases are tough to rememdy.

I don't think Yang Cheng Fu's weight had much to do with his taijiquan.

[khinbu]

For all of you who want to know,

There are still TRUE descendants of Yang Shaohou Taijiquan. I will name one for all of you, Tian Yingjia, son of Tian Zhaolin (Tian Zhaolin was the student of Yang Shaohou) is still alive and well in China. I got this from very reliable source. And I will assure you that his teaching doesn't even close to what Erle teaches. FYI, Yang Shaohou's students are mystery in the west, but NOT in CHINA. So, anybody who follows Erle Montaigue, I hope all of you can go to China and see whether Erle Montaigue's teaching is even close to YSH TRUE descendant or not.

Wish for peace

[Braden]

Actually, there's a surprising number of Yang Shou-Huo taiji descendants in the west. For example in Vancouver one of the more famous taiji instructors was Tchoung Ta Tchen whose taiji came from Yang Lu-Chan -> Yang Shou-Huo -> Tian Zhao Lin -> Shi Tiao-Mei.

Despite having made significant alterations of his own to the forms he recieved, his curriculum is remarkably similar to Erle's, including the fast form and the stick form.

[khinbu]

Is his fast form similar to Erle's? And does Erle have any fast form set apart from what he calls Sanshou A&B which actually is not THE Yang Shaohou fast form (Kuaijia) which has the same way of arrangement with the common Yang form, e.g. Qi shi, Lan Que Wei, Danbian etc.? And do you know that there is still some claim in Southern China on the original Yang Luchan-handled-down set and practice methods?

About Shi Daomei, I know from very reliable resource that Shi only learned for about 5 years.

Wish for peace

[Sam Wiley]

Wish For Peace,
Those kind of responses are exactly what I am talking about. Don't make assurances to anyone about what his art is like when you haven't seen it yourself. And don't give second and third-hand information (ala, "I heard from a very reliable source," or so-and-so said"). Not only does that take the credibility out of the statement, it makes whoever made the statement seem immature in several areas.

A week ago, I had a Xingyi and Taiji practitioner come to me to see what the Old Yang Style I teach is like. That's the way to gather information: to get it from the source.

*********

[Braden]

"Is his fast form similar to Erle's?"

It is not the same arrangement as the 'common Yang form,' and he teaches a paired sanshou A&B form. I have not done a comparison of postures between his and Erle's forms.

"And do you know that there is still some claim in Southern China on the original Yang Luchan-handled-down set and practice methods?"

I didn't specifically know this, nor did I think otherwise, nor do I see how it relates to the current discussion.

"About Shi Daomei, I know from very reliable resource that Shi only learned for about 5 years."

If this is supposed to be a ****ing statement, I hope you're comfortable throwing out babies like Sun style Taiji and Cheng Ting Hua's bagua with that bathwater. And that's assuming you're right.

[diego]

and you have a crush or not :p

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[patriot]

Tchoung Ta Tchen studied with Shi Daio-Mei for only 2 years as a total beginner after a seriours illness. After he regained his health, he studied push hands with Cheng Meng Ching. Therefore Tchoung is hardly, or claimed to be, a representative or ackonwledged descendant of the Yang Shou Hou branch.

[IronKim]

I think Erle Montague is fraud. Get a hair cut dude!!!

"Right or wrong does not come from your personal judgement. Your personal judgement always favors you. Favoring yourself is not the right answer, the right road. Favoring the other side is not the right answer either. Right and wrong were their before you were born. Personal beliefs of right and wrong bring with them the confusion of your own thoughts. This is the worst way to make a mistake. "

-Grandmaster Iron Kim

[Braden]

Patriot - I'm just going with what was said at the memorial service for his funeral.