Seeking Help with translations

[Minghequan]

I have a large number of Texts in Chinese on White Crane and seek help in having same translated into English. Can anybody help or steer me in the right direction?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I have translated the quan pu in most of Wong Hon Fan's books on 7* Praying Mantis. Examples can be found at Mantis Quarterly and one or two at this site. Look under Mooyingmantis posts.
Perhaps I could help. PM me for more info.
Richard A. Tolson

[David Jamieson]

a translation company is your best bet. You will have a hard time having someone just translate entire texts for free for you and anyone willing to do that would beg the question regarding accuracy.

better to pay a fair wage for the work and get the kind of job done that you need to have done.

alternately, you could spend a year or 2 learning to read chinese and then you don't have to worry about it. :)

[omarthefish]

I was going to post earlier and ask if this was charity work being sought or actual paid work.

I'm totally into translating old MA texts but I only do largish projects for free when it's related to my Shifu or at least to our style.

p.s.

lol@ spending "a year or two learning to read Chinese...." make that a double lol.

I have spent roughly 12 years learning to read Chinese and I still sometimes need help reading those sorts of things. Since old MA stuff is my specialty, I don't tend to need it often but in any case, I'd say it takes about 10 years before you are qualified to translate old Chinese stuff solo. I was doing magazine articles about 3 or 4 years ago and at that time it was still pretty painstaking work.

Chinese can not be picked up in "a year or two". Even people who live hear only get basic conversational skills in that time.

[lunghushan]

Chinese translating for martial arts is hard because CMA uses a specialized vocabulary and average Chinese people and translators just don't know it.

I've gone to plenty of Chinese people asking them 'what does this mean', and they have no clue at all.

So going to a translation service probably isn't your best bet. Your best bet would probably be paying somebody like Richard or Omar or Joseph Crandall or somebody who has spent time in it to translate the works.

Or better yet learning yourself. Although that will probably take a lot of work.

Anyways, I'll PM you the info about somebody locally who is not only a paid translator, but also a MAist. Perhaps she can help you.

[David Jamieson]

alright, i suppose it will take longer than a year or two, but like anything, ability to learn depends on a lot of factors.

and yes, chinese is a weird language that most that may be able to speak do not necessairly know how to read and write due to the...well, thousands of characters/ideograms used to write.

conversational chinese can be learned in less than a year though really, the refined act of reading and writing does take as long as it took you or I in our native languages I suppose although i think a willing and wanting adult can and will likely learn something, anything, at a quicker pace.

but, perhaps i was being a little liberal with my timeline to learning chinese. considering it is one of the most highly complex and befuddling languages available to our human tongues. and as you say, people who have done it all their lives don't always have the greatest grasp, certainly not for translation or writing. The same is true of english, but not at the level of complexity as is chinese.

I can utter and understand rudimentary level stuff, barely read a few characters and hardly have any idea at all of how to read freeform written chinese more often than not.

still, a translation company is not really that bad of a suggestion is it? the better the company or translator, the better the results.

[lunghushan]

still, a translation company is not really that bad of a suggestion is it? the better the company or translator, the better the results.

It's not a bad suggestion except for the fact that I've brought martial arts Chinese to native speakers many times and they didn't have a clue as to what it said.

Each time they said something of the nature of that Chinese has specific vocabulary for specific things, like medicine, martial arts., etc., and if you don't know the specific vocabulary you will have a hard time translating.

A translation company might have martial arts specializations. I don't know about that.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

It's not a bad suggestion except for the fact that I've brought martial arts Chinese to native speakers many times and they didn't have a clue as to what it said.

Each time they said something of the nature of that Chinese has specific vocabulary for specific things, like medicine, martial arts., etc., and if you don't know the specific vocabulary you will have a hard time translating.

A translation company might have martial arts specializations. I don't know about that.

Lunghushan is correct. Even in English with have a differentiation in technical language. I work in the medical field, we have our own terminology. My wife is a school teacher, her field has terminology that most would not recognize unless they were also in that field. Chinese martial arts texts are the same.
I cannot speak Chinese. However, over the years I have developed some ability in translating Chinese quan pu (fist songs) by translating the Lam Sai Wing (Hung Gar) and Wong Hon Fan (Seven Star Praying Mantis) books. Though I am limited to quan pu and struggle with written conversational Chinese.
My actual college studies dealt with translating the Hebrew text of the Bible. So I am not unfamiliar with the art of translating foreign languages.
I do not charge. I have always been interested in the White Crane style, so I thought that I would offer.
Richard

[omarthefish]

...conversational chinese can be learned in less than a year though really, the refined act of reading and writing does take as long as it took you or I in our native languages I suppose although i think a willing and wanting adult can and will likely learn something, anything, at a quicker pace.


This is an argument I have fairly repeatedly. The common consensus is that CHILDREN learn languages more quickly. It is virtually impossible to find an adult learner of Chinese who becomes anywhere near as fluent as a native speaker. Now I personally actually am NOT in agreement with this idea that children are natural lanaguage learners. The fact is there have been numerous studies pointing out the more elastic nature of childrens brains and the terrifying speed that they acquire vocabulary in those early language learning years. Despite the wealth of scientific information suggesting that they are organically better suited to language acquistion, I have become 100% convinced that it is a chicken/egg thing and that when you look at the extreme minority of adults who are truly successful at learning Chinese you will find the same sort of brain plasticity, formation of new neural connections and astonishingly fast vocabulary acquisition. The REAL reason children learn quicker is the VASTLY higher level of immersion and real world pressure to learn.

When you learned your native language there were no dictionaries to translate baby gurgling into English and none to translate English into baby speech. What's more, if you could express your meaning you didnt' eat/get a changed diaper/toys/etc. It has been pointed out that children who move to other countries at an early age also develop flawless second languages with no accent. I challenge anyone to find ANY adult who undergoes the same level of immersion as those children. An American child in China will be in a Chinese school 8 hours a day learning history, math, science and playing games with other Chinese kids and KIDS do not avoid correcting your pronounciation in order to save you face.

The real thing is what you just said though, "...about as long as it took you to learn your own language..." How many 10 year olds have "mastered" English? They have the literacy of ...a 10 year old.

You can't expext to learn as fast as you learned your own language because you won't spend the kind of time and effort on it that you spent on your native tongue and think how long THAT took to learn. . .

[lunghushan]

Omar,

I've met plenty of adults who were immersed in a foreign language, especially those coming to the U.S. from other countries -- especially China, India and south American countries.

However, none of those speak without an accent. Why? I have no idea why, but one pattern that seems common is a reticence to completely immerse themselves in the language. They seem to use the parent language as a crutch, and usually converse with those who speak their native tongue, especially by calling home or hanging out with those who speak their native tongue.

Is it possible for an adult to speak a foreign language without an accent? I've never met ANY adult who speaks the foreign language without an accent. So I don't know if it is possible or not.

Edit ... there are those actors who fake foreign accents and some of those seem almost authentic, especially Australian actors doing American English, but I'm not sure it's possible with foreign languages.

Given research in neuroscience on language and the development of the brain in children as to compared to adults, (especially given ablative experiments in cats and adults who have had strokes), it would seem that adults cannot develop native language skills as well as children.

Ablative experiments and observations from stroke victims would suggest that as adults become older their brains become more fixed and they just cannot develop the same way as children.

[Minghequan]

MonkeyKingUSA,

Please check your PM.

I cannot afford to pay for any translations but full credit would be given and of course one could keep the translated items.

I am interested in using such translations in magazine published articles and on my web site.

Regardsn

[lunghushan]

MonkeyKingUSA,

Please check your PM.

I cannot afford to pay for any translations but full credit would be given and of course one could keep the translated items.

I am interested in using such translations in magazine published articles and on my web site.

Regardsn

BTW, I've run into you somewhere before. LOL Hell, just learn Chinese yourself. It would give more credibility to your 'institute' anyways.

[omarthefish]

Omar,

I've met plenty of adults who were immersed in a foreign language, especially those coming to the U.S. from other countries -- especially China, India and south American countries.

They don't immerse HALF as deep as children do. What adult goes to school 8 am to 4 pm in America studying English intensely in every class? What adult gets picked on and teased for "talking funny" basically from the moment he leaves the house in the morning to the moment he gets home at night? What adult doesn't have a circle of friends who speak his native tongue, read books in his native tongue and in most cases even chills out with movies or TV in his native tongue? Just doesn't happen. Adults learn language in their free time. Children do it in every waking hour.



However, none of those speak without an accent.

Not true. Almost none speak without an accent. Those who truly commit to losing their accent....do. It's NOT a biological impossibility. Even someone like me has already less of an accent in mandarin than just a Chinese speaker from the south or with a less than high school occupation and the accent that I DO have is less American than Shaanxi. There are also variout TV and radio personalities in China who speak flawless Chinese. Accent free. For evey one that is famous on TV for it, how many more just among the population doing non-media related work?

They seem to use the parent language as a crutch, and usually converse with those who speak their native tongue, especially by calling home or hanging out with those who speak their native tongue.

That's my point. It's more diffifult for an adult because of SOCIAL reasons. If you are willing and able to immerse completely enough and to not get lazy when you speak "good enough", you can learn just as well as the kids.


Is it possible for an adult to speak a foreign language without an accent? I've never met ANY adult who speaks the foreign language without an accent. So I don't know if it is possible or not.

You have most likely met several but didn't know it because they were speaking with no accent and you didn't even know that English wasn't their native tongue.



Edit ... there are those actors who fake foreign accents and some of those seem almost authentic, especially Australian actors doing American English, but I'm not sure it's possible with foreign languages.


Of course it is. It just takes a LOT of work. That's the level I am studying Chinese at right now. I speak completely fluent Chinese but you can still hear it's not my native tongue. It's extremely eazy to get complacent at this level because communication is already not an obstacle and all you get is praise for speaking such awsomely good Chinese. No one stares at you in confusion trying to understand what you are saying anymore so you tend to sit on your laurels. Lucky for me, my GF is BRUTAL in her criticism pouncing on my every missed tone or American style grammatical residue. (like tending to always say "4:00 in the afternoon" instead of "afternoon, 4:00") To get rid of the accent you need to do specialized training beyond grammar and vocabulary. You need a language coach. As a kid, that would be your classmates. Kids, I have decided, are not the best students. They are the best TEACHERS. I have gotten far more thorough, clear and emphatic corrections from my students (12 and 13 years old) than from any teachers. They also laugh and make a big deal out of it. It burns an impression on you but is not mean. Kids are awsome that way. Nothing like a room full of 50+ kids laughing hysterically at your mispronounciation to drive the point home.



Given research in neuroscience on language and the development of the brain in children as to compared to adults, (especially given ablative experiments in cats and adults who have had strokes), it would seem that adults cannot develop native language skills as well as children.

I am aware of that research. I just believe the cause and effect is mixed up. The brain is pretty elastic. My final "proof" is that adults who set out to immerse themselves in a foreign langauge and REALLY go for it can develope just as much fluency and literacy, more even, than native speaking kids can in the same time period. Compare a talented adult learner who has lived in China for 10 years to a Chinese 10 year old child. I have only lived here for 6 years, almost 2 years of that (added together) spent visiting home. Basically 4 years studying in a school in America + 4 years of continuous immersion but with only 1 year of that spent in school studying. My 8 years of study can easily stand up against an 8 year old native speaker in terms of literacy. My accent is not so great but give me another couple years of work and that will dissapear too.



Ablative experiments and observations from stroke victims would suggest that as adults become older their brains become more fixed and they just cannot develop the same way as children.

Perhaps not the same way but certainly just as effective. Again though, I believe the cause and effect are mixed up. Take an adult and place him in COMPLETE immersion, no dictionaries, no native language TV or radio, no book, no contact whatsoever with his native language and see how fast he learns and what his accent is like.

Our drawback as adult learners is not our brains. It's our lives.

[lunghushan]

Omar,

It would be a lot better for stroke victims if what you said was true, but neuroscience research would suggest otherwise.

BTW, mixing up 4:00 in the afternoon with afternoon @ 4:00 is pretty basic, accent is not those things.

I've spoken 'Spanish' (really Mexican) with local hispanics and they say they think my accent is just fine, but really, I can't speak to save my life, they're just being nice. Pero la diferencia entonces doce y media y media y doces es estremamente basica. Accent is much more difficult than basic grammar.

Anyways, to translate Chinese texts you don't need accent.

[Minghequan]

Lunghushan


BTW, I've run into you somewhere before. LOL Hell, just learn Chinese yourself. It would give more credibility to your 'institute' anyways.

Hey thanks for the advice. I could always ask my Sifu and his assistant in China.

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan

Hey thanks for the advice. I could always ask my Sifu and his assistant in China.

Yeah, I ran into you somewhere before -- I think some karate forum or someplace they were dissing you. If you learned Chinese and could prove you studied with a good sifu that would really negate their arguments, especially if you had published works.

[Minghequan]

Hi Lunghushan,

Best wishes .... please check your PM.

People are always dissing someone on the Internet. Such is the nature of the beast! It is their politics, not mine. It only goes to say something about their character (or lack of it). It says more about them and their insecurities than I ever could.

I have a good Sifu and we are working together in promoting the values of his wonderful art. I am also learning Chinese in order to make my communications with my Sifu easier but as you know such a process takes time.

[omarthefish]

Omar,

It would be a lot better for stroke victims if what you said was true, but neuroscience research would suggest otherwise.

Adult learners of foreign languages are not brain damaged. ;) It's a dangerous self-fullfilling prophecy. Don't believe the hype!



BTW, mixing up 4:00 in the afternoon with afternoon @ 4:00 is pretty basic, accent is not those things.

It's not only accent that pegs you as a foreign speaker but also basic habitual ways of expressing yourself. There are numerous other things that are not grammatically incorrect in Chinese but just sound "foreign". There are ways of forming thoughts that are characteristic of different languages. I can't think of examples off hand because THAT is really difficult but it comes up from time to time here with my GF especially when she corrects little essays that I write for practice. Often she will say that a sentence I wrote is not "wrong" per se but just not typical Chinese speech/writing pattern. Same thing when I, as an ESL teacher, try to correct my students. LOT's of times things are perfectly grammatically correct but just ....not the way we say it in America. Stuff pegs you as a foreign speaker.

just thought of one. The other day I told me GF that my stomach was just "itching" for a particular food. She thought it was hysterical but completely understood that I meant "craving" because in Chinese you often say that your hands or feet "itch" to do something. When I am anxious about not having trained well I say that my hands itch. But it was still funny because Chinese people just don't say that their stomach itches. OTOH, she felt it showed real grasp of the language because I was intuitively using it to humourous effect.


Anyways, with that comment I was trying to say that REALLY learning a language is more than grammar, even in the written form. Often second language learners are MORE precise in their grammar than native speakers and just don't have the right sensitivity to when you can break the rules and how.



Anyways, to translate Chinese texts you don't need accent.

But you DO need an intuitive grasp and a feel for not only denotation but also connotation of words especially with old Chinese where the grammar is vague and there are no articles or other grammtical type words to establish syntax. You sometimes need to understand something of the pop culture behind the text or the historical allusions, the cultural context.

You can make mistakes translating text just as funny or ironic as in speech. That's why the best translation are always done by people working in teams with native speakers of each language represented. When I tackle difficult material I always run a lot of stuff by my GF or my co-workers here in China. We run the difficult passages back and forth between English and Chinese until we agree that we both agree on the precise meaning and the connotation in both languages.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, Spanish has that, for example, to say you don't like something, you say no me gusta, which means, it doesn't like me.

But those things are very basic. That's not accent. If you're still running into those things you're a basic language student -- you haven't even gotten to the accent yet.

[omarthefish]

If you're still running into those things you're a basic language student --

Don't be silly. The kind of mistake you make grammatically has virtually nothing to do with what level language student you are. Often it is just laziness. Some of the most simple mistakes are the very LAST things to be trained out of your system like Chinese speakers who are graduates at American Universities who still tend to make mistakes with countable and uncountable nouns or other first and second year issues. Some people speak with very little accent at all but are still very low level speakers. They are all just different skill sets and are not necessarily developed in any particular order.

Broades categories are:

expressive - speaking and writing.
receptive - listening and reading.

Speaking can also be broken down into:

- fluency
- accuracy (grammar, vocabulary, sentence construction)
- pronounciation (accents)
- ?

You can be really good at any of those 3 I listed and still suck at the others. I have tended to excell at fluency form the get go but really lagged with grammar and pronounciation. They have caught up quite a bit but since I have tended to learn in more informal enviroments and in a task based, communicative fasion, my practical use of the language really accelerated while certain basics lagged behind. I have met people with far more precise pronounciation than me or better grammar who nonetheless has far weaker listening and comprehension skills than me and more difficulty expressing themselves funtionaly in an enviroment of native speakers.

I've also met FAR better writers who could hope to keep up with me in colloquial conversation.

Here's me, a "basic language student" according to the standard you proposed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjfE14k70C4

(shameless self promotion. :D )