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The Black Tiger
12-28-2006, 11:12 PM
How long can you guys hold a horse stance.

DaveTart
12-29-2006, 03:39 AM
17hrs, 14mins, and 27.5 secs...
(ok that might be a lie)

What sort of horse stance? high horse, low horse, etc?

generally: As long as our instructor makes me. Feels like hours...

Donkwoon
12-29-2006, 09:14 AM
The Wa Lum manual says from 5-30 min. I must admit though the most that I will go is about 5 min. For a normal class warm up 2-3 min is fine. During warm up I think that it's ok to start up high in stance and sink lower as you get more flexible.

The Black Tiger
12-29-2006, 04:05 PM
Legs parallel to the ground, feet strait or mostly strait ahead, back strait, and hands chambered.

IronWeasel
12-29-2006, 04:27 PM
Legs parallel to the ground, feet strait or mostly strait ahead, back strait, and hands chambered.



At normal (70% body height) about 55 minutes...it was during a lecture in class.

At thighs parallel...5 mins was the most I've been timed at.

Ravenshaw
12-30-2006, 01:05 AM
Legs parallel to the ground, feet strait or mostly strait ahead, back strait, and hands chambered.

I wouldn't recommend pointing feet straight ahead if thighs are parallel to the ground. That's a lot of stress on the knees.

I've only done about 15 minutes in a normal horse. But even that's sort of a waste. There are much better things to do with practice time.

David Jamieson
12-30-2006, 06:38 AM
lol.

sit in horse stance.

yes, I suppose i have done it, to get used to the shape.

good to do it to strengthen, better to do it gradually and with mobility to seal the strength that grows as you grow your kungfu.

becoming a statue with any of the postures of kungfu will give you the ability to pose like a statue. :p

in the beginning, this is a good effort, but after you learn your abc's start making words, then sentences, then paragraphs, then grammar checks, then...write that novel. :)

CLFNole
12-30-2006, 10:15 AM
Agreed CLF doesn't promote sitting in sei ping ma for extended periods of time. We are more concerned with a lively horse and practice moving in and out of stances more. We do some holding but nothing over the top. A live horse is more important than a dead horse.

Ravenshaw
12-30-2006, 05:49 PM
A live horse is more important than a dead horse.

I like how you phrased that.

lunghushan
12-30-2006, 06:54 PM
I like how you phrased that.

You might find if you can ride a live horse, you can sit in on a dead horse.

Seriously, why would you want to sit in horse stance for hours unless you are a complete and total martial arts nerd? We used to have horse stance parties, where we would sit in horse for an hour, but why would anyone want to sign up for such abuse?

You probably have better things to do with your time, like chasing chicks and/or drinking.

Ronin maximus
12-30-2006, 07:41 PM
lol.


in the beginning, this is a good effort, but after you learn your abc's start making words, then sentences, then paragraphs, then grammar checks, then...write that novel. :)


Well put!

But I like to liken it more to music...
You learn notes, then scales, then songs and interpret the songs, then you
learn to improvise:D

David Jamieson
12-30-2006, 09:16 PM
horse stance parties?

wtf man. :p

lunghushan
12-30-2006, 10:00 PM
horse stance parties?

wtf man. :p

My room-mates and I were taking Shotokan, and they invited over some people from the school to do horse-stance for an hour.

Unfortunately after the first two times we had one guy pass out from the pain, so we didn't have many takers after that.

Ravenshaw
12-31-2006, 02:25 AM
Wouldn't you just collapse before that point?

qiphlow
01-01-2007, 02:09 AM
Wouldn't you just collapse before that point?

only if you're a pu$$y...:D
just kidding! i've done 3 min and it fu<kin' hurt like hell, but i'm pretty amazed at how fast your legs get strong and how quickly you can progress with regular practice...

Asmo
01-01-2007, 02:50 AM
If you really want to do training like this, I'd recommend doing it along with something like iron palm training. You'll get something useful out of it as well then, especially in the later stages when your hitting the bag for at least 30 minutes ;)

lunghushan
01-01-2007, 03:26 AM
Wouldn't you just collapse before that point?

We had one guy who had problems. After about 30 minutes, I think, his legs started giving out, and our fearless leader (not me) got behind him and kindof propped him up and coached him. He lasted (in a lot of pain) for about 15 more minutes and almost passed out.

He never came back.

The thing is, it wasn't like we started out doing an hour. We started out doing it for like 15 minutes or something, watching movies, and then after a while, somebody had the great idea to make it an event and do it for an hour.

The guy who had problems was new, although he had done martial arts before, I don't think he'd ever spent much time.

Bottom line is we quit -- I think the other guys who had been there a while, an hour wasn't a big deal for them anymore, plus after the guy passed out (actually I think he did basically pass out), we didn't get anybody new coming.

Also, I don't remember how deep we went. It definitely wasn't thighs parallel to the floor, but it was enough so that guy who didn't have a lot of experience had his legs give out.

lunghushan
01-01-2007, 03:54 AM
If you really want to do training like this, I'd recommend doing it along with something like iron palm training. You'll get something useful out of it as well then, especially in the later stages when your hitting the bag for at least 30 minutes ;)

One of guys that did it with us went from Shotokan to some Shaolin class, and said they had some beaters and some drills, so they'd sit in horse and do like a 3-star drill and then beat their body and arms with some sort of beater.

I didn't really pay much attention to it at the time but those guys were kindof hardcore. He was showing me his arms afterwards because he was trying to get the lumps out and I showed him the massage we used to do for the lumps that build up on the shins after Kyokushin kicking drills. His arms were totally beaten up -- like not just bruises and black and blue but lumps and cuts and stuff. I haven't seen anything like that since.

Asmo
01-01-2007, 04:08 AM
Hmm, with the danger of steering this topic off-topic: proper iron palm wont damage your hands in that way. But again, I was just suggesting to put such time in good use if you really want to stand static for so long, and not letting this topic go off-topic :)

lunghushan
01-01-2007, 04:31 AM
Hmm, with the danger of steering this topic off-topic: proper iron palm wont damage your hands in that way. But again, I was just suggesting to put such time in good use if you really want to stand static for so long, and not letting this topic go off-topic :)

The entire static standing in horse for a long time is, IMHO, a bad idea.

Static standing and putting the muscles like that seems to build up lactic acid without clearing it out. The lymphatic system requires muscle movement to move it like a pump. Also, the blood in the legs requires the same mechanism.

Given what we know now about blood clots and keeping the body in one position for a long period, such as flights, I really don't recommend extended time spent in horse.

Asmo
01-01-2007, 05:04 AM
Personally, I think during IP I would change stance about every 5 minutes to keep my focus on the palms instead of the strain in the leg.

Static training is also bad from the point of view of range of motion the muscles will be worked on, besides all the other points mentioned in this thread.

Ravenshaw
01-01-2007, 03:57 PM
If you're practicing iron palm, I wouldn't recommend sitting in a low horse. If you're struggling with the horse, you're not focusing on the striking.

ginosifu
01-01-2007, 04:23 PM
My teacher is an older student of Wing Lam. He started training with him back in the 60's here in Cleveland. We still practice old school horse stance:

Thighs paralell with a staff laying across. Arms out and finger point upward with a staff on them. Neither staffs can role either forward or backward. Start with 30 seconds for a month then 1 minute etc etc. Take this training as far as you can. Usually 3 - 5 minutes should be sufficient.

Iron Palm training should focus on hitting, not on stance. However, I rotate 5 minutes in mid level horse, then bo, then shifting etc etc. Focus on hitting your bag and not sitting in a low stance.

Ginosifu:p

David Jamieson
01-01-2007, 07:27 PM
The entire static standing in horse for a long time is, IMHO, a bad idea.

Static standing and putting the muscles like that seems to build up lactic acid without clearing it out. The lymphatic system requires muscle movement to move it like a pump. Also, the blood in the legs requires the same mechanism.

Given what we know now about blood clots and keeping the body in one position for a long period, such as flights, I really don't recommend extended time spent in horse.



there is no such thing as a static stance. you are constantly adjusting always changing, rasing slightly, lowering slightly, small muscle motions are always happening, energy is always flowing.

you can be still, but if you are alive, you are never "static".

as for your comments about lactic acid and flushing etc etc. You are incorrect about it. I wouldn't worry too much about it and maybe you guys should all chip in and buy a 360 xbox or something, it's way more fun than training incorrectly on your own. :)

Ravenshaw
01-01-2007, 07:36 PM
Gino,
Since you mentioned Cleveland, then I'm going to guess that your teacher is John Ervin, right? I met him a couple times on visits he made to our Sifu's school. Nice guy.

lunghushan
01-01-2007, 08:09 PM
there is no such thing as a static stance. you are constantly adjusting always changing, rasing slightly, lowering slightly, small muscle motions are always happening, energy is always flowing.

you can be still, but if you are alive, you are never "static".

as for your comments about lactic acid and flushing etc etc. You are incorrect about it. I wouldn't worry too much about it and maybe you guys should all chip in and buy a 360 xbox or something, it's way more fun than training incorrectly on your own. :)

?? We did that 12 years ago, numbnuts. They didn't make XBox 360s then.

You might want to educate yourself about the lymph system, anaerobic glycolysis, and the valves of the veins of the legs before talking again.

IronWeasel
01-01-2007, 08:47 PM
?? We did that 12 years ago, numbnuts. They didn't make XBox 360s then.

You might want to educate yourself about the lymph system, anaerobic glycolysis, and the valves of the veins of the legs before talking again.


Jeez!

Stop typing mean words and get back in your stance.

brothernumber9
01-02-2007, 11:24 AM
The most I've ever done parallel is 7 min. In order to learn weapons, I had to do 5min, so If I could do 7, then I could do 5. It was extremely difficult for me. My flexibility is not good so my knees didn't push out very far, so my stance put even more strain on my quads.

The excercise is very mental, of course there are physical limitations, but there is an aspect of tolerance that is part of such excercises. I personally beleive it helped to improve my stamina and endurance around that time.
When I competed in tournaments and the like around that time, gettting through all the events was relatively easy, it reminded me of wrestling tournaments in highschool. Certainly that wasn't solely or even mostly because of horse stance training, but I beleived it helped. Most recently (6yrs ago) I really felt the effects of lactic acid build up after just a couple events. I hadn't trained like in the years before. I could certainly be wrong, since I didn't do any study at all on variables of training between different times, but I honestly beleive that static horse stance training (not parallel mind you) positively influences endurance and stance structure in particular. It was much easier to move in the "live" horse as stated.

I just think that until clinical or experimental data or presentation, even from a simple personal workout level is presented, that static horse conditioning should'nt be understated.