what do you think of wutan?

[blahblah]

Hi I was just wondering what people's thoughts of the wutan school of chinese martial arts is?
I found this vid on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnNar4wsBQI

[MasterKiller]

Since when is Mantis a Wu-Tang art?

[baji-fist]

Masterkiller,

The term Wu-Tan used for the school should not be mistaken for Wudang Shan. Sounds similar but different charecters.

Wu-Tan was founded by GM Liu Yun Qiao to promote Chinese martial arts. Styles such as tanglang, xingyi, long fist, Chen taiji, etc where taught because GM Liu encouraged his students (some of whom where already skilled martial artists prior to seeing Liu) to also teach. Wu-Tan is primarily known for bajiquan/piquazhang and yin shi bagua (gong bao tian line).

[golden arhat]

it isnt wu tang but it does look pretty good

[ChinoXL]

it is wu-tang; i've use to go to their school in new york in queens their curriculum is usually like this:
tan tuei 12 road
MANTIS
baji
piqua
etc.. chen tachi etc.. lots of weaps

[golden arhat]

no it isnt
simple fact

if they were a wu tang school this is likely what they would teach
wu tang quan or wudang taiji
and maybe other internal forms

mantis is exactly that MANTIS look up its history its shaolin
tan tui is a long fist system ive studied it
chen taiji comes from chen village not wu tang
the sword form demo'd in that video wasnt wu tang either
baji and pigua arent shaolin or wu tang they are grouped with stuff like tong bei

[samson818]

As previously mentioned, Wutan is the group created by GM Liu Yun Qiao.

Their major style is bajiquan, you can see its influence in most of their forms/movements.

Cant speak for all the groups, considering they are spread throughout the world....
But the East Coast group is pretty solid.
Big on foundation.
Solid training.

[ChinoXL]

HOW U FIGURE!? im just stating that they DO teach it at their curriculum; it may not be their art but they teach it; the wu-tang kind of teach forms from every mantis; ie. plum flower, 6 harmony, 7 stars, 8 step, and also secret gate (1-2 forms).

look at the site man they have mantis in their curriculum www.wutangusa.com tell me that's not wu-tang

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Masterkiller,

The term Wu-Tan used for the school should not be mistaken for Wudang Shan. Sounds similar but different charecters.

Wu-Tan was founded by GM Liu Yun Qiao to promote Chinese martial arts. Styles such as tanglang, xingyi, long fist, Chen taiji, etc where taught because GM Liu encouraged his students (some of whom where already skilled martial artists prior to seeing Liu) to also teach. Wu-Tan is primarily known for bajiquan/piquazhang and yin shi bagua (gong bao tian line).

Tony Yang (North Canton, Ohio) was a direct student of GM Liu. I first met him 20 years ago and have had contact off and on with him since then. He and his people are excellent martial artists. Sifu Yang trained in several styles of praying mantis before he trained with GM Liu. Every year Sifu Yang holds a tournament in memory of GM Liu.
As for Ba Ji, I don't care for it, but that doesn't mean it is not an effective martial art. It is just not my cup of tea.

[omarthefish]

Since Liu Yunqiao made it part of his curriculum. "Wu-tan" in this case refers to the international martial arts organization that he founded but ALSO refers to the mountain.

Baji-fist,

No. It is actually the same exact characters as in "Wudang Shan". That mountain is what the name refers to. Since master Liu's primary training is all in Wudang arts, Baji, Taiji, and Bagua, he named his school after the legendary source of them all.

Mantis was added because of his defeat at the hands of a Mantis master even after he had been going around the country feeling pretty invincible beating all comers for some time. Then this old Mantis dude schooled him and he decided to add Mantis to his curriculum.

[Royal Dragon]

Where does his Tai Tzu Chang Chuan fit into this?

[Sifu Darkfist]

A couple of issues here Number one Gm LIU trainrd Six harmonies with a friend and not because of defeat. The remainder of the huge amount of praying mantis used in Wutan (and there is alot) comes from the Mantis King who is a member of Wu Tan and a disciple of GM liu, GM Su Yu Chang www.pachitanglang.com.

WuTan is an association that consists of the best of Northern CMA to complete its original goal of Defending those that need defended. Praying Mantis is one of those styles but is not the only style taught in Wutan or Wutang.

The fact that Gm SU and his Mantis is part of this curriculum is proof that the acceptance of excellence is the goal of this wonderful organization. GM Liu was a Baji, Xing Yi, Mizong, BaGua, Tai Ji, and Six Harmonies expert along with other styles, however one must remember that GM Su who has compiled all 5 major substyles of mantis into one house was his student.

THat should be enough to answer the questions on the quality of the system.

Also, the Taiwanese government was satisfied with the training provided by Wutan for its bodyguards and military forces,

And if you go into our history you will find a long line of bodyguards and famous (as well as infamous) Martial arts masters.

Our association is also known for its tight brotherhood and although many of the famous masters affiliated rarely speak out on this forum they are reading and are aware of the overall temperment of the CMA community.

Also let it be known that i am a young member of this organization and only speak from the knowledge i have attained up until this date.

[omarthefish]

3 questions.


What's your source on his reasons for taking up PM? I read about the challenge fight from his own personal accounts.

Also, what is your relationship to Tony Yang? Your reffering to him as "grandmaster" suggests he is your teacher's teacher but then again, maybe you are just trying to give him additional respect and he is only your teacher.

Lastly, what specific authority do you have to represent Master Yang in public? I am not directly related to the Wu-tan organization but am still pretty curious.

edit:
lol. I just posted that that wasn't Tony Yang but I was looking at the dude in the chair. The young man standing behind Liu is probably the youngest looking Tony Yang I have ever seen. :)

Just from the title, I assumed the pic was you and "grandmaster Yang" and didn't recognize the people in the pic.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Well I am a disciple of Yang Xiao Dong. to start with. Also i am aware that Gm Liu Sparred with friends and as i said before i am not a definitive source but i do know that combatitively as in real fighting, he really faced few obstacles in the martial arts world.

I can, do far more research and i also intend to. However the learning Six Harmonies from a freind is correct this i have gotten from the words of my master as well as other masters who would have no reason to lie.

I Use GrandMaster to show the deepest level of loyalty and respect toward my master. In my understanding to hold one as a grandfather figure even if he is your father ist show you feel his wisdom has gone beyond his years.
i am sorry if it bothers you.

The implcation that GM Liu "Needed" PM to complete his martial arts was the specific problem i had with your quote. Any man can lose any where at any time to any one, i should know the first several years of my martial arts life were painful as well as humbling. However to question the completeness based upon this world wide truth would be unfair also.

However, if you have an account that states of a defeat i am a historian and i would love to examine it.

Something about your method of writing leads me to believe that i spoke to you in the past am i mistaken?

[SPJ]

Wu Tan means the place or platform for MA.

1. there is a CMA promotion and development center in Taipei.

2. university chapters: they consist of Kuo Shu club in universities and colleges.

3. oversea branches: former students going to different countries and start schools of their own.

The idea is to preserve and promote CMA to the college students and general public. The other aspect is to learn from each other and research and development.

styles:

1. Baji/Pi Gua from Li Shu Wen to Liu.

2. Yin Fu Ba Gua from Gong Bao Tian to Liu.

3. 6 harmonies mantis, Ding Zi Cheng to Zhang Xian Shan and Liu.

4. Tan Tui from Hang Ching Tang to Adam Hsu.

--

each student brought a style/styles and learn other styles etc.

--

So if you attend one of the affiliated schools, just pick a style and start some basics and go from there. nobody is expected to learn everything over nite. Some would take a life time just to practice and learn one style. LOL.

Best of luck.

:)

[omarthefish]

Well I am a disciple of Yang Xiao Dong. to start with.

In the interrum, I managed to get your profile up and visited your website. Very nice. Was a bit confused at first as I only know your teacher as "Tony Yang". Never heard his Chinese name before. Was kind of checking because although he has many students, only a couple are officially authorized as his representatives even among disciples. I am not clear specifically who those people are but I do know that discipleship is only an entrance and not really a "graduation" so I wanted to check. I also posted this question on another board to Robert Figler who also posts here as RAF and who you should know if you are a disciple under Tony yang. I know him personally and understand that he is a kind of a "media rep" for master Yang. As a general rule I tend to defer to him on issues of master Liu's history. I don't remember clearly but it is entirely likely that I heard the story of the duel from him or from one of the articles he has sent me for translation or just among the materials he has shared with me over the past few years.

However the learning Six Harmonies from a freind is correct this i have gotten from the words of my master as well as other masters who would have no reason to lie.

That doesn't necessarily conflict with the story I heard. The way I heard it was just that early on he hooked up with Li Shuwen and after that, there was really little in the world to impress him gongfu-wise. Later on, largely from pressure from his elder "brother" Zhang Xiangwu, he started studying internal stuff. Zhang Xiangwu, my own Shiye, introduced him to Gong Bao-tian and most likely was the one to teach Liu the Kun Wu sword and quite possibly Yang style Taiji although the Taiji is harder to trace. I really don't know where the mantis came in. Just heard that Liu pretty much thought he had it all wrapped up for a while with Baji and Bagua untill an old Mantis dude kicked his ass. Where specicifically he learned his mantis I never heard so your version could be perfectly correct.

I Use GrandMaster to show the deepest level of loyalty and respect toward my master.

Just checking. "grandmaster" doesn't really correlate to anything specific in Chinese so it's always a guessing game to see what people mean by it.

The implcation that GM Liu "Needed" PM to complete his martial arts was the specific problem i had with your quote.

I actually didn't mean to imply that at all. I was just relating a story I had heard and didn't mean anything beyond that. I don't even train Mantis myself. I am only tangentially related to the Wu-tan organization, mainly through friendship with many of it's members and out of a deep respect for the friendship and fellowship that our respective grandmasters (Liu and Zhang) shared.

However, if you have an account that states of a defeat i am a historian and i would love to examine it.

Best to pm RAF about that.

Something about your method of writing leads me to believe that i spoke to you in the past am i mistaken?

I had the same feeling but I can't place it. That's why I actually posted the question on emptyflower. I was hoping someone would connect the dots for me.

[onyomi]

Since Liu Yunqiao made it part of his curriculum. "Wu-tan" in this case refers to the international martial arts organization that he founded but ALSO refers to the mountain.

Baji-fist,

No. It is actually the same exact characters as in "Wudang Shan". That mountain is what the name refers to. Since master Liu's primary training is all in Wudang arts, Baji, Taiji, and Bagua, he named his school after the legendary source of them all.



This is wrong. The mountain is 武當 (wu3 dang1), GM Liu's organization is 武壇 (wu3 tan2).

[Sifu Darkfist]

[QUOTE=omarthefish;728344]Well I am a disciple of Yang Xiao Dong. to start with.

In the interrum, I managed to get your profile up and visited your website. Very nice. Was a bit confused at first as I only know your teacher as "Tony Yang". Never heard his Chinese name before. Was kind of checking because although he has many students, only a couple are officially authorized as his representatives even among disciples. I am not clear specifically who those people are but I do know that discipleship is only an entrance and not really a "graduation" so I wanted to check. I also posted this question on another board to Robert Figler who also posts here as RAF and who you should know if you are a disciple under Tony yang. I know him personally and understand that he is a kind of a "media rep" for master Yang. As a general rule I tend to defer to him on issues of master Liu's history. I don't remember clearly but it is entirely likely that I heard the story of the duel from him or from one of the articles he has sent me for translation or just among the materials he has shared with me over the past few years.

[QUOTE]
Fair Enough,

Here is the definitive proof that i am authorized
http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/instructors.html

Also to clear the air, i am very much a specialist and not a all knowing all prophetic student.
For instance, i am a student of chinese history specializing in the Manchu rule and how it relates to military and martial arts but i do not have even half the answers.

As for martial arts RAF and James Finley are the authority under my master with the broadest knowledge of all the styles.

My speciality is focused on open handed applications of the combat and the sport fighting aspects of the systems. My innovative ability only plays a part as the applications of the Wutang system play into modern hand to hand combat.

I take traditional martial arts and apply them to the ring and the street period.


in other words i try to keep my repretoire current and simple.
i am not interested in knowing everything only what i do best to the fullest.

As my master has instructed me that simplicity is the key to success. I train Baji pigua bagua for the properties that they lend to the overall Wutang effectiveness not to know the entire styles. I train Praying mantis to hold a profound knowledge of its mechanics and strategies not to know every form.
I grew up around guys that knew a hundred forms and couldnt kick an old ladies rear end.
And then there are men like the Late GGM Li Shu Wen that trained 2 styles and linited his number of forms and never tasted defeat.

and even though i train weapons at the order of my master it only ends up being a mere 10th of my training (guns being the exception i train them heavily).

90 percent of my students (myself included) focus on the basics until they drop, with drills in higher level moves increasing with experience.

So the short of it is that I do as i am told in teaching and i take no credit for the achievements for myself, end of story.

[Sifu Darkfist]

the words 武 　搪 Wu tang and their meaning.
I have heard the meaning as the altar for which the martial arts is placed.

the literal interpretation according to the word processors and books is Wu military or boxing skills tang = evade ward off, defend, or secret.

Lets see what the real experts have to say on this subject
SPJ has already agreed with the altar or platform
i would like to hear from translators as well as the authorities.

[omarthefish]

This is wrong. The mountain is 武當 (wu3 dang1), GM Liu's organization is 武壇 (wu3 tan2).

heh. lol.

I never noticed that. Just checked Tony's website. I guess you're right. :o I always thought it was just typical Taiwanese non-pinyin type romanization.

I stand corrected.

Darkfist,

You checked the wrong character. Take a second look at the one in "Wu-tan". It means a kind of a pavillion. A place to meet and learn kind of like the way Socratese used to hold classes outside in any convenient open space. It's the same character as in the name of the street I live on in Xi'an, "Tian tan xi lu". In fact, I think it's even the same character as in "lun tan" (论坛) but I am not sure because I know the character in simplified. Anyways the Wu-tan one has a little "earth" radical on the left. The one you cited has an "arm" on the left and a "roof" over the top with a "sugar" inside.

[onyomi]

Omar is right about the character. 坛 is the simplified for 壇. It originally means "altar" or "ceremonial hall" (like Tiantan in Beijing=Temple/Altar of Heaven), but also comes to mean like "forum." Therefore, you might translate Wutan (GM Liu's organization) as "Martial Forum" or something like that.

The confusion arises (and I've seen it arise like five times on various forums now...) because of that funky Taiwanese Romanization in which the final "n" and "ng" are switched as compared to PRC Hanyu Pinyin. I really can't figure it out because it's not Wade-giles, Yale or Tongyong Pinyin, but it seems pretty common in older Taiwanese Romanizations. Actually, my friends and I jokingly called it "suibian pinyin."

[Sifu Darkfist]

heh. lol.

I never noticed that. Just checked Tony's website. I guess you're right. :o I always thought it was just typical Taiwanese non-pinyin type romanization.

I stand corrected.

Darkfist,

You checked the wrong character. Take a second look at the one in "Wu-tan". It means a kind of a pavillion. A place to meet and learn kind of like the way Socratese used to hold classes outside in any convenient open space. It's the same character as in the name of the street I live on in Xi'an, "Tian tan xi lu". In fact, I think it's even the same character as in "lun tan" (论坛) but I am not sure because I know the character in simplified. Anyways the Wu-tan one has a little "earth" radical on the left. The one you cited has an "arm" on the left and a "roof" over the top with a "sugar" inside.

excellent that is the type of advice in translation i am seeking thank you

玄 拳

[RAF]

Yes, Jimmie is indeed a disciple and has his own branch. He does a very decent job of training and drilling students for the ring.

Chinese is a complex language for a bunch of blue collar guys (I include myself---I even did my dissertation as a field case study of coal miners and productivity---3 years in the coal fields.). Growing up outside of Pittsburgh, I only knew of one Chinese person and his family had a laundry mat--he is now a professor but that is what I knew of the Chinese. Parents in the late 50s and early 60s told children to finish their plates because, "there were people starving in China." Its only recently (teaching an international business course with an emphasis on China) that I figured out this was a reaction to the starvation resulting from China's Great Leap Forward during the 1950s. I had my first Chinese dinner, 1970, fried rice and thought that was all they ate in China--Iron Rice Bowl, right? China was virtually of no interest since it was closed from the West during that time period. Ohio similar to Pittsburgh area. Grab a disc on the old 1950s TV series, Fu Manchu, and you see what parents of the 50s thought of China and the Chinese (you can get them in Dollar Tree for about a $1.00.

When Yang Xiao Dong arrived here in Ohio in 1980, Chinese was not a popular language or art for study. Praying mantis was virtually unknown let alone baji. Bruce Lee and the TV series Kungfu reigned throughout the area. Taekwando or karate was the art of choice. Initially, they mistranslated his name as Shu Ton Yang in an article in the local paper (we still keep the article for it was a good introduction to him) along with many other terms. Tony did not speak English at that time so it wasn't easy to learn and write the "refined" language of the art---you simply trained and drilled the basics--which is what Jimmie is doing at his branch up towards Cleveland.

Wutan got mistranslated on our 1980 banner but it was too late to change it---we get mistaken for Wudang Shan and also the Wutang Clan (although the latter ain't so bad lol).

As you can well imagine, a lot has changed over these decades and the changes continue.

Liu has been dead since 1992---there is no unified Wutan---there is a great deal of variation out there so the question really needs refocused: Do you mean, "What do you think of the martial arts of the late Liu Yun Qiao? or his idea of the Wutan Martial Arts Development Center?" Or perhaps you are thinking about a particular branch or association?

My teacher, Tony Yang, left Taipei in 1980 after spending 8 years with Liu on a daily basis (no college or formal job other than martial arts). Since he left a lot has changed and there are a lot of branches, associations and people teaching the material of Liu Yun Qiao.

When I speak of Wutan, I think primarily of Liu's material baji/pigua, bagua, six harmony mantis, mizong yi, and the lesser areas of tai zu quan and his yang's taijiquan. Others may have a different slant.:cool:

[SPJ]

Growing up in the 60's and 70's. I heard a lot of stories.

yes, the great leap forward did "ruin" or turn upside down the economic on mainland. the farms were not producing enough food. everyone lived in the cities had to have rations. the tickets for everything, cooking oil, rice, vegetables, there were no meat or eggs.--

During cultural revolution from 1966 to 1976, many city people were banished to learn or re-educate from the farmers. many were dislocated in far off places. everyone belonged to a production brigade. The bare foot medics attended the medical needs. Temples and universities were closed or destroyed. ---

There were hungry masses exidous to Hong Kong in waves. even during the hardest hardships, Deng and Zhou still kept the water and food supplies to Hong Kong going. It was the only conduit or link to the world or the west. HK had to be stable.--

In Taipei, there were meetings upon meetings. Since the US decided to be involved in Vietnam. All plans to go back to mainland were abandoned in the mid 60's.--

As a result, there were movements to recover Chinese culture. including CMA. in the bigger picture, Wu Tan was part of the movement for the renaisance of Chinese culture in Taiwan.--

Even before Wu Tan, there were meetings/gathering among CMA people or enthusiasts regularly either in the parks, or private homes already.--

I was told that GM Liu used up all his pension to fund the Wu Tan mag. That alone already spoke a lot.--

--

:)

[onyomi]

Growing up in the 60's and 70's. I heard a lot of stories.

yes, the great leap forward did "ruin" or turn upside down the economic on mainland. the farms were not producing enough food. everyone lived in the cities had to have rations. the tickets for everything, cooking oil, rice, vegetables, there were no meat or eggs.--

During cultural revolution from 1966 to 1976, many city people were banished to learn or re-educate from the farmers. many were dislocated in far off places. everyone belonged to a production brigade. The bare foot medics attended the medical needs. Temples and universities were closed or destroyed. ---

There were hungry masses exidous to Hong Kong in waves. even during the hardest hardships, Deng and Zhou still kept the water and food supplies to Hong Kong going. It was the only conduit or link to the world or the west. HK had to be stable.--

In Taipei, there were meetings upon meetings. Since the US decided to be involved in Vietnam. All plans to go back to mainland were abandoned in the mid 60's.--

As a result, there were movements to recover Chinese culture. including CMA. in the bigger picture, Wu Tan was part of the movement for the renaisance of Chinese culture in Taiwan.--

Even before Wu Tan, there were meetings/gathering among CMA people or enthusiasts regularly either in the parks, or private homes already.--

I was told that GM Liu used up all his pension to fund the Wu Tan mag. That alone already spoke a lot.--

--

:)
Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing those experiences.

GM Liu was from an extremely wealthy family in Shandong. That was how his family was able to retain the best teachers for him. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he used up much of his family fortune on the organization and mag, especially considering Wutan Magazine had no advertisements.

I certainly admire his idealism and devotion to CMA. I've never trained at a Wutan school, so I can't say whether all schools under that banner maintain quality as high as GM Liu's, but from what I've seen of video clips and whatnot, it looks very good. I definitely appreciate Liu and his organization's dedication to preserving and spreading authentic northern CMA.

[RAF]

Just a minor point, his family was in Cangzhou, Hebei although GM Liu traveled throughout the area, especially Shandong and also spoke with a relatively thick Shandong accent (according to my teacher--he was able to understand Liu quite well since Yang Xiao Dong's father was from Jinan, Shandong).

Unfortunately I don't think Liu's money or family followed him to Taiwan. Until the 1990s, before Liu died, no one knew had a first wife along with a son and daughter. I suspect he never spoke of them for fear that the communists would kill them for their assocation with Guomindang. When he returned to China prior to his death, he was informed that his son and daughter were still alive. However, it was later during his trip that he was informed his son had died years ago. I believe his daughter lived in Beijing and am not sure if she ever met him or wanted to meet him. According to some, his health deteriorated relatively fast after the trip---although he may have been ill prior to the trip.

By most accounts he was a very decent human being.:)

[golden arhat]

HOW U FIGURE!? im just stating that they DO teach it at their curriculum; it may not be their art but they teach it; the wu-tang kind of teach forms from every mantis; ie. plum flower, 6 harmony, 7 stars, 8 step, and also secret gate (1-2 forms).

look at the site man they have mantis in their curriculum www.wutangusa.com tell me that's not wu-tang

its not wu tang
pretty simple really

[omarthefish]

Try to keep up dude.

Not been reading any of the posts but your own last one maybe?

It IS Wu-tan(g). You're still confusing terms on account of similar romanizations. Grandmaster Liu Yun-qiao's martial arts organization is called "武坛". Since Liu Yun-qiao established his organization in Taiwan, the name doesn't follow any particular standard romanization format. Technically it should be called "Wu-tan" but since people from Taiwan tend to have really really ****ty pinyin, it is just as often romanized as "Wu-tang" even though that's technically wrong and confusing because it sounds like the most typical romanization of 武当, which is the name that refers to Taiji, Xing Yi, Bagua and other non-shaolin, more daoist type arts as categorized by the Nanjing National Martial Arts Acadamy established in 1928 which is where we get these catergories anyways. THAT "wu-tang" actually should not be romanized "Wu-Tang" anyways and should be called Wu-Dang.

So in short:

1. Master Liu's organization which DOES include northern Mantis as part of the standard curriculum is called Wu-tan or Wu-tang or in Chinese 武坛。

2. The mountain in northern China and also the general category for arts traditionally associated with that region and with Daoist philosophy is called Wu-dang or Wu-Tang or in Chinese 武当.

Mantis is part of the first category but not the second.

All clear now?

p.s.


...baji and pigua arent shaolin or wu tang they are grouped with stuff like tong bei

Wrong. I can't speak for pigua but Baji is absolutely 100% considered "wu tang" in BOTH ways. It is both core to Liu's establishment AND considered to be associated with other "wudang" arts like Taiji or Bagua. That's why it was taught in the "wudang" department at the Nanjing Acadamy. Within China it is traditionally considered to be "wudang pai" (武当派)

[ChinoXL]

www.wutangusa.com that's not wu-tang? lols wutever u say kiddo; point proven

[RAF]

If you want to see a very large inclusive set of many things that comprise the "Wu Tan Curriculum" the check out Mike Martello's clips here regarding the auxilliary training:

http://www.wutang.be/wutang.eng/ssp/idx_sspevents.html

Flash Technique Galleries:

Techniques Conditioning
Basic Body Conditioning


Techniques Conditioning
Basic Hand Conditioning
See 17+

Also Techniques Shuai Pole

Techniques Zhan Zhuan

_____________________________________

Throughout the galleries are technieques from pigua, baji, and other systems of praying mantis.

Of course there is more, especially with regard to breathing and intention. For example, under Techniques Standing Stretching clips 80-the end is one of the baji yi qi exercises called reversing the spine---there is a coordinated breathing required in its execution.

There are tons of little gems on those clips!

Many of these would be part of Liu Yun Qiao's teachings, however, many come from other systems such as praying mantis and Liu would not have taught that. More likely Su Yu Zhang brought them in and were considered a part of the curriculum. Adam Hsu also brought in his share of material.

Not every branch or associated Wu Tan School would teach everything posted by Mike. However, a good school would have a fairly good sample of each. Any school without having access to baji/pigua jiben gong is not likely to be Wu Tan in content and only Wu Tan in name.

Thank you Mike for posting!