Scooping the Moon from the bottom of the Sea...

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Would anyone care to discuss/give their interpretaion of the application for this technique? I know that the name may apply to more than one technique in the various lineages of bagua so let me explaing...
It is the one when the one drops the stance to a tiger riding stance...and the hand follows the foot down...
Hmm...not the best description. Hopefully someone will understand what I'm talking about...

[Braden]

Can you describe the posture any better? What's a tiger-riding stance? We don't have any posture by that name in our form, but maybe it's what we call 'pheasant throwing wings'?

The legs are like a bow stance, only you drop lower to thrust the unweighted leg back a bit further, and you turn so that you're facing the unweighted leg a bit; the palm on the same side as the unweighted leg follows the force to slap down so it's sort of parallel to that leg; the other arm is pointing in the direction of your weighted leg, elbow sticking out, fingers pointing towards your waist; head turned so eyes watch the active hand.

Yes? No?

[Waidan]

Our terminology is a bit different, but I think I know the movement you are describing.

My teacher has shown me applications where the lead hand is used to push against the opponent's hip, or even better their knee (attempting to hyperextend the joint and force the opponent to the ground). The movement is used a lot in our forms as a directional change, and I've always seen it as "slipping a high punch/attack from the rear, and countering with a strike to the forward knee".

Also, at extremely close range (right where you ought to be, I suppose) I could see the lead hand and foot slipping between the opponent's legs and performing a "fireman's carry" style throw (perhaps your rear hand is grabbing their wrist).

My co-worker simply refuses to let me throw him around right now, so I can only visualize the techniques for the moment :)

[thumper]

"Would anyone care to discuss/give their interpretaion of the application for this technique?"

The only thing I'll say is there is more than one application and you may want to start by looking at what the upper half does alone, disregarding the stance movement. Use your feet anyway you think they will make the scooping moon work on an opponent. Free yourself from the form-way it is practiced and embrace the concept behind the movements.

"it's all about the basics"

[razakdigital]

Eight,

No matter what move you learn make sure it's realistic in it's application. It's a good move for stretching. (I use it for stretching) What you see in books and video is great but you have to use common sense in your choice of tactics. We sometimes get caught up with all of these fancy "names". Again, I ask (and I ask myself this all the time while I'm training) can I use this move in a real fight? You have to spar to really see if it works. That's how you know.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Well, I'm glad everyone got what I was talking about. I don't really know the name for this technique, but I've seen it called this in Park's book and just used it. In any case... The reason I asked is, to be quite honest, I can not see any practical application for this technique. I asked for other's ideas because I thought I may be missing something.

Razak, I feel the same way...
By the way, you OK? WTC and all?

[razakdigital]

Thanks for asking. I'm ok it's crazy out there!!!!

[TheBigToad]

Scooping the moon from the sea bottom was called sparrow skims the lake's surface in my system, not a big deal but just some of you might know it as that.

As for the hyper extension of the knee and hip I'd be really careful on that you have to have some serious power to do that and just very, very few I could conceive of doing that.

You could use it as a "jamming" of the leg into the knee if they where kicking high (how rare is that)? But your best bet is to use it as a fireman's carry set up and again I just don't see many people strong enough or have the balls enough to do that and to carry it out to full fruitration, sorry.. but thats just honest.

As my teacher taught it was all that plus a more useful method of swooping in low and fast and jamming the testicles and if you can grab on and rip the attacker to or off the ground with them.

I am trying to get a hold of a MPG of me using Beng Chuan (wood) in similar fashion swooping right below a kick boxers knee and you can see him go into a drop dead buckle and hit the ground and fight over. It is an effective method but you have to make it so. Razak you interested?

-Kevin

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[razakdigital]

Hello Kevin... I would love to see a MPG of you doing a BENG to someone trying scooping the moon on you. Myself, I would a Hsing-I entry kick right in their face ....

The bottom line is realistic movements...we sometimes get to caught up in the classical pictures and words of someone with these exotic moves...fighters in 2001 and a lot more knowledgable then the fighters in the 1900 and 1800's....think realism....

[blacktaoist]

In Yin BAGUAZHANG that movement is known as Sparrow skims the water. If you use this move, it must be used quickily since you are vulnerable to a real life ass kicking if you stay in it for long. The move can be use to attack the prostate gland or testes. Too use this technique a person need speed and timing,for both offensive and defensive of this movement. Usually a smaller person has a advantage with this movement then a taller person. A smaller person is closer to the ground and can maneuver more quickly. A taller person, because of his ****her distance to the ground and his actual physical weight, would be slower then his smaller counter-part. So for a tall person this movement is not that effective for offensive, but for defensive if you have good reaction time able to be quick, get in and out.
Then i feel sparrow skims the water is a effective technique for neutralize and simultaneously counterstrike, like when an opponent attacks, you protect your center line, turn your body and intercept and simultaneously counterstrike low, attack the testicle or the tip of the coccyx. All movements in BAGUAZHANG are for striking fatal points, you just have to put the time in (practice)to understand how to apply them in a real fight, and my friends thats going to take time and real training. Man i love BAGUAZHANG!!!PEACE-BLACKTAOIST

[blacktaoist]

In Yin BAGUAZHANG that movement is known as Sparrow skims the water. If you use this move, it must be used quickily since you are vulnerable to a real life ass kicking if you stay in it for long. The move can be use to attack the prostate gland or testes. Too use this technique a person need speed and timing,for both offensive and defensive of this movement. Usually a smaller person has a advantage with this movement then a taller person. A smaller person is closer to the ground and can maneuver more quickly. A taller person, because of his ****her distance to the ground and his actual physical weight, would be slower then his smaller counter-part. So for a tall person this movement is not that effective for offensive, but for defensive if you have good reaction time able to be quick, get in and out.
Then i feel sparrow skims the water is a effective technique for neutralize and simultaneously counterstrike, like when an opponent attacks, you protect your center line, turn your body and intercept and simultaneously counterstrike low, attack the testicle or the tip of the coccyx. All movements in BAGUAZHANG are for striking fatal points, you just have to put the time in (practice)to understand how to apply them in a real fight, and my friends thats going to take time and real training. Man i love BAGUAZHANG!!!PEACE-BLACKTAOIST

[thumper]

...take away the stance movement, and work on what the upper body does. It's true, you need to be really swift at this move, if doing it in a tiger stance, because you can very easily catch a kick to the face. But that's is when you do it in a tiger stance. And if you DO do it in a tiger stance, what if you start the movement when the opponent is kicking
I'll repeat.....embrace the CONCEPT of the movement. You don't need to drop into tiger stance and scoop all the way through to be doing 'scooping the moon'. Play with it. Change it up. You have to work it to make it work. Practice it enough, and you will come to realize the concept of the movement. I doubt Park would have it in his books if it were useless.

"it's all about the basics"

[thumper]

...take away the stance movement, and work on what the upper body does. It's true, you need to be really swift at this move, if doing it in a tiger stance, because you can very easily catch a kick to the face. But that's is when you do it in a tiger stance. And if you DO do it in a tiger stance, what if you start the movement when the opponent is kicking.
I'll repeat.....embrace the CONCEPT of the movement. You don't need to drop into tiger stance and scoop all the way through to be doing 'scooping the moon'. Play with it. Change it up. You have to work it to make it work. Practice it enough, and you will come to realize the concept of the movement. I doubt Park would have it in his books if it were useless.

"it's all about the basics"