deadlifting question

[phoenixrising]

If I am regularly deadlifting, do I need to include a supplementary exercise (leg curls, stiff legged deadlift) in order to hit my hamstring development too, or does deadlifting cover it? If I alternated the deadlifting with squats, would that cover my hamstrings?

thanks-

[Samurai Jack]

Squats work pretty much all of the muscles in the legs in a natural movement that pretty well mimics the way your legs are designed to work. The deadlift does as well, some would say just as well as the squat, though more of the weight is taken by the back, which consequently means many people end up being able to deadlift slightly more than they can squat. In my opinion isolation exercises such as leg curls are unnecessary, and possibly counterproductive if you are training your legs with big compound movements like deads and squats.

There are two reasons for this. The first is that training your body with both compound and isolation exercises eats in to your ability to recover from the exercises (which is finite, although the amount of time needed to recover from heavy exercise varys amoung individuals).

Also, as I mentioned, the squat and deadlift are natural movements. Your legs are designed to work that way. Building up an unnatural level of strength in your hamstrings with unnatural movements (supposedly in an effort to crerate 'balance'), will actually create an imbalance. Your quads are supposed to be much stronger than your hamstrings!

The bottom line is this; As long as you are seriously deadlifting and/or squating you are doing all you reasonably can to build your hamstrings, using the two most effect weight lifting techniques known to man. Keep up the good work!

[phoenixrising]

Thank you for your response and your knowledge, Samurai Jack, it is appreciated.

Do you think squatting/deadlifting is inherently damaging to the lower back or one moreso than the other? I ask because since I started I feel a sensation in my lower back, its not really pain but more of a tightness or discomfort. I wonder if it isn't caused by the stress/compression placed on the lumbar discs by the act of deadlifting or the arcing of it.

I think my deadlifting form is OK as Pavel watched me and said it was good. He hasn't seen my squats, however, and I think my upper body bends forward 45 degrees or so when I squat (a good amount)- not sure how to get the ability or flexibility to do it with upperbody perpendicular to ground.

thanks again-

[Samurai Jack]

Too many people have sloppy form and do injure themselves with these lifts. Deadlifts work the lower back pretty hard. You should feel some muscular ache there as those muscles do thier job. You should minimize the amount of lean you allow yourself when you squat. It's not possible to be completly upright, but you should try to be. The deadlift is another beast, but I preffer Sumo style deadlifting because it keeps the spine more upright than other deadlift styles and lets you bear more weight with your legs. It's good you had someone coach you with your deads. Do yourself a favor and get some personal instruction from an experienced powerlifter* before you start going too heavy on your squats.













*Note I did not say personal trainer. :p

[_William_]

Three things to consider:

Recovery/Adaptation - is it too much too soon(underrecovery), are previous injuries or weaknesses impacting performance right now

Flexibility - hip flexors, glutes/hip rotators, ankles, hamstrings. If you are like most people, you will likely need more flexibility in all of these. However, it is best to evaluate your flexiblility to ensure that you are not in the dark as to what is tight in your body.

You can start here:
http://www.yourgolffitnesscoach.com/ModShow/ShowPage/14280/
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Posture.html
The test here for the hip rotators is very good as well:
http://www.drbackman.com/piriformis-muscle-stretch.htm

There are a whole slew of other postural and flexibility assessments out there... you should take a look if you are serious about performance.

Form - Also directly impacted by the above - are you keeping a neutral spine, and bracing the torso, staying tight, keeping your head up, not tucking the tailbone, etc?

For neutral spine you can take your shirt off and have someone watch you as it is often hard to tell on your own... especially the lower vertebrae.

[YouKnowWho]

If you want to build big muscle then dead lifting is fine. if you want to develop some CMA skill then there are better way to work on a double heads.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7251/doubleheadsqj5.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doubleheadsqj5.jpg)

You may be able to develop more skill by using single_head instead of double heads.

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9787/singleheadweightwo3.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleheadweightwo3.jpg)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2083/singleheadweightwi7.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleheadweightwi7.jpg)

[phoenixrising]

Welcome to my thread, (Shuai Jiao) Sifu John Wang, thank you for posting. I am not currently training shuai jiao so I have noone to train me in the ways and techniques of the stone weights, although I am planning on trying a class with your kung fu relative Dr. Mark Cheng soon.

Currently I play Zhaobao Taiji with Zhao Weidong. At the moment I play with the weights because it is fun and a good outlet for stress and good for health and it is good to be strong. Perhaps in the future I will 'marry' my weight training with my kungfu, however in my current style of Zhaobao I don't think they use weight training.

William, thanks for your response, I will take a look at those pages.
Samurai Jack, thanks again for your valued input. How would one go about finding an experienced powerlifter in Los Angeles?

[SevenStar]

If you want to build big muscle then dead lifting is fine. if you want to develop some CMA skill then there are better way to work on a double heads.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7251/doubleheadsqj5.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doubleheadsqj5.jpg)

You may be able to develop more skill by using single_head instead of double heads.

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9787/singleheadweightwo3.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleheadweightwo3.jpg)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2083/singleheadweightwi7.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleheadweightwi7.jpg)

1. deadlifting does not necessarily have to build big muscles. It's all about goals.

2. compound lifts are just as functional as the rock pole in the sense that they are training body coordination, as opposed to isolation. That said, the rock pole is more specific, but ultimately, deads would build more power.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

two words for hamstrings ... glute ham raises. jesus christ these things are killer. if you're repping out on ass to grass squatting along with some ghr's you'll have a difficult time walking next day no doubt.

but that said what are your goals. do you want to get big ... get strong ... or are you just trying to help your cma training? i love powerlifting, but honestly if you're trying to supplament your cma training i think you'd be better off focusing on the olys. you could then use the big 3 (bench, dead, squat) as accessory lifts forgetting isolation **** almost entirely.

the only drawback is that you really need somone to show you how the olys are done. while you can never replace a good trainer, vids and books can go a long way to help you with the powerlifts, but ollys are a lot more technical.

[IronFist]

Deadlift and squat both work your hamstrings. Your hamstrings don't just curl your heel up to your butt, but they also play a role in bending you backward at the hips. You might think that because when you squat and deadlift, you're standing up against a weight, that it's only your quads being worked (and your quads definately get worked), but your hamstrings also fire as well, just like they do when you do stiff legged deadlifts.

In fact, this phenomenon is called some paradox (I can't remember the name... the ______ paradox), because antagonist muscles do not usually fire together. But, for example, when you are sitting in a chair and then you stand up, both your hamstrings and your quads are working. Don't believe me, put your hand on your quad and stand up. Feel it contract? Now put your hand on your hamstring and sit up. Feel it contract? Weird, huh. The same thing happens when you're walking up stairs.

But note that this only occurs with quads/hamstrings. Doing biceps curls, for example, does not cause the triceps to fire.

edit - From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist_(muscle))


Lombard's paradox:

When you stand up from a sitting position, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time.

The Rectus Femoris biarticular muscle acting over the hip, when compared to the hamstrings has a smaller hip moment arm. But, the rectus femoris moment arm is greater over the knee, than the hamstring's knee moment. This means that contraction from both rectus femoris and hamstrings will result in hip extension, and knee extension. Hip extension will also add a passive stretch component to the Rectus Femoris, and will result in a knee extension force. This "paradox" allows for efficient movement especially during gait.[1]

[phoenixrising]

Thanks for responses.

'Sup GDA? Right now my goals in relation to weightlifting are to put on10-20+ pounds (I'm around 140 right now), to get stronger, to get healthier, to have fun. I intend to train in a safe, healthy, manner, even if that means only adding 5 pounds a week to my lifts (I have some injuries/issues). I'm not in a race to lift massive weights, not planning on competing, and even at 5 pounds a week that will be some pretty good numbers after a year. This also gives the tendons and ligaments ample time to strengthen and adapt. Basically, I'm doing it for fun, to get bigger and stronger, to cultivate my body to its highest potential, and as an outlet for stress.

In regards to Olympic lifts, they look cool but intuitively and from the bit I've read they seem to be inherently damaging over the long term. As far as my MA goes (Zhaobao taiji), I don't think there's too much weight training associated with it. When we strike we connect the shoulder to free the hand so the hand is almost acting like a whip allowing the hip/ground energy to travel through it.

[JDK]

I know this is Old School and few have the patience....but I have gotten better Leg and Overall Body Workouts from the Following than I ever did with Heavy Deadlifting

http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm

Want a real challenge ?????? Try these for 6 months

http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm

http://img358.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snakestanceax3.jpg

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/5958/snakestanceax3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



JD

[stricker]

actually ive got a question about deadlifting too if anyone can help...

from what i've read a 2x bodyweight DL is a good basic level of strength to aim for as a non-powerlifter. i like doing deadlifts sumo-style with my feet outside my hands as i feel it engages the other hip muscles more and takes some of the strain off the back. what percentage of a regular deadlift is roughly equivalent of the same weight in sumo style?

sumo deadlifts are awesome. not a question just thought id say it :)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Deadlift and squat both work your hamstrings. Your hamstrings don't just curl your heel up to your butt, but they also play a role in bending you backward at the hips. You might think that because when you squat and deadlift, you're standing up against a weight, that it's only your quads being worked (and your quads definately get worked), but your hamstrings also fire as well, just like they do when you do stiff legged deadlifts.

In fact, this phenomenon is called some paradox (I can't remember the name... the ______ paradox), because antagonist muscles do not usually fire together. But, for example, when you are sitting in a chair and then you stand up, both your hamstrings and your quads are working. Don't believe me, put your hand on your quad and stand up. Feel it contract? Now put your hand on your hamstring and sit up. Feel it contract? Weird, huh. The same thing happens when you're walking up stairs.

But note that this only occurs with quads/hamstrings. Doing biceps curls, for example, does not cause the triceps to fire.


edit - From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist_(muscle))

agreed, but i still like ghr's. they've given me an onion butt which girls seem to like.

[IronFist]

Oh, I know, GHRs are awesome. I'm just saying that squatting and DLing alone will still work your hamstrings, so you don't NEED another hamstring exercise.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Thanks for responses.

'Sup GDA? .... 5 pounds a week that will be some pretty good numbers after a year.

thats the neat thing about strength. with a good program and dedication you get strong quicker than you'd think. you should exceed 5lbs a week as a noob for a good while, but after a year or so 5lbs a week will be an incredible run you'll want to milk for all its worth. im just now starting to see that on the horizon and fast approaching myself.

heres a program that a lot of people have been raving about for beginers lately:
awesome write up on rippetoes starting strength program (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224)

this is the meat of it:


Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Power cleans

You train on 3 nonconsecutive days per week.

So week 1 might look like:
Monday - Workout A
Wednesday - Workout B
Friday - Workout A

Week 2:
Monday - Workout B
Wednesday - Workout A
Friday - Workout B


its a very basic program that will get you good at the lifts and you can subsitute the cleans for rows ... it even gets into that in the write up. maybe iron or ford or one of the other guys can give their opinions on it. (i have a feeling ford is gonna say its too much squatting though :) )


In regards to Olympic lifts, they look cool but intuitively and from the bit I've read they seem to be inherently damaging over the long term.

ill admit that i don't know what they do over long term. i know short term they've added almost 2 inches to my verticle jump in a month or two and im still terrible at them. they are awesome for explosiveness which is a tremendous benifit to pretty much any athlete. its helped in jiujitsu a lot as well. ive also noticed my joints getting a little achey which could be nothing or it could be a sign of things to come. in any event, while they might not be the staple of my training they have earned a permanent place in it and ill focus on them from time to time.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Oh, I know, GHRs are awesome. I'm just saying that squatting and DLing alone will still work your hamstrings, so you don't NEED another hamstring exercise.

agreed.

and if i didnt NEED random girls grabbing my ass i probably wouldnt bother with them as much as i do :) i may be attached, but ****it i still like the attention. in fact i've never had attention before so its doubely awseome.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I know this is Old School and few have the patience....but I have gotten better Leg and Overall Body Workouts from the Following than I ever did with Heavy Deadlifting

http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm

Want a real challenge ?????? Try these for 6 months

http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm

http://img358.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snakestanceax3.jpg

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/5958/snakestanceax3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



JD

pistols are great exercises too, but not the same type of strength.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

It depends on what kind power that you want to build and how you are going to use that power for.

If you want to develop

- Twisting power then it's better to twist a heavy object
- Pushing power then it's better to push a heavy object.
- Pulling power then it's better to pull a heavy object.
- Rotation power then it's better to rotate a heavy object.
- ...

Even in the simple push and pull situation, it's still better to work with an "free object" that you can add your footwork and body method into it instead of just work on the iron that most gym provided.

This way the power that you develop can be applied directly into CMA application and you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I don't like to separate my gym work out from my CMA training. May be I'm just lazy.


strongman training!

[phoenixrising]

Dang, GDA, I want an onion butt too! that all the girls can grab. Maybe I'll get one
from just squatting and deadlifting.

Today I tried overhead squatting for the first time with the bar (45 pounds). It was interesting but with my upper body at 45 degrees that bar was pretty far forward and seemed to put pressure on an upper back vertebrae. Think I'll stick to regular squats, deadlifting, upright row, lat pulldown, flatbench, incline bench, sidepresses, and farmers walks for now (on alternating days)/.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

why would you bend forward on overheads?

feet shoulderwidth or a little more narrow ... ass to grass ... head up chest out.

you may get a slight lean towards the end due to fatiuge, but it should be very slight and thats about the point you want to stop.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

2 examples of overheads:

185 for 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qtU2oJnoSc

crossfit girl doing nancy (a girl front squatting is hawt period)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHVom7IEPxU

i can see where you might think there's a foward lean, but its actually the hips moving back which is a lot different. youre not good morning'ng the weight up .... this starts to happen to the best of us due to exhaustion, but its not technichally sound.

[stricker]

some good info here, but no-one knows if you should be able to lift more or less sumo-style compared to regular deadlift??

[AndrewS]

Hey Jon,

check some EFS and t-nation for pulling per your body type- the short answer to your question is- it depends on how you're built.

Short arms, long torso- tends to pull better sumo style
long arms, short torso, short legs- ideal conventional pulling build, I believe (think lowland gorilla)

Phoenix,

ditch the upright rows- there are better ways to hit that motion without shoulder issues (clean and snatch pulls), trade the lat pulldown out for a pullup/chin variant if you can, and if you want to hit your hammies- RDLs are beautiful, as is high rep kb work.

Where'd you meet Pavel, anyway?

Andrew

[phoenixrising]

GDA,

I wasn't leaning forward intentionally, it just seems to happen- I guess a lack of flexibility somewhere.

Lately I'm really digging my farmers walks- like the way they feel. I'm up to 30 pounds/hand, working on 5 minutes, do some calf raises and shrugs during that time too.

Andrew-

Thank you for your input, its appreciated. I made a mistake, the exercise I do is not called upright rows, I don't know the name. You sit down and grab some handles attached to a cable and pull them towards your belly, kind of like you're rowing a boat. And as for chins/pullups, I have some elbow issues at the moment so I do the pulldowns so I can limit the weight/work with less than bodyweight (about the third or fourth bar at the moment)

Olympic lifting looks intriguing but I'm uncertain of its long term safety and I'd want someone to show me the ropes before I started doing it.

As to your last question, I'm sworn to secrecy!:D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

low cable rows.

[stricker]

Hey Jon,

check some EFS and t-nation for pulling per your body type- the short answer to your question is- it depends on how you're built.

Short arms, long torso- tends to pull better sumo style
long arms, short torso, short legs- ideal conventional pulling build, I believe (think lowland gorilla)
Thanks andrew, that makes sense. I don't suppose its anything to worry about too badly, but its nice having a target to aim for. you'll have an email coming your way soon...

[AndrewS]

Phoenix,

seated cable rows is the name for them- nice upper back exercise.

As to Oly lifting- learning pulls, overhead squats, and push-presses will give you most of the benefits of olympic lifting, while being a good bit safer and easier to learn than working on the full lifts which are pretty technically demanding.

As to where you met Pavel- you know a dude named Steve, also goes by Ajax- 6', 250s, beard?

Andrew

[phoenixrising]

Hey Andrew,

No, I don't know any Steve/Ajax. In regards to your post above concerning getting the benefits of Oly's from other lifts, when you say pulls to you mean deadlifts? When you say push-presses, do you mean military press and bench pressing?

I tried some light overhead squatting last week and both times it seemed to compress or make uncomfortable a vertebrae or disc between my shoulderblades- I can feel it days after and feels like I need a chiropractic adjustment.

[AndrewS]

Phoenix,

Pulls- the explosive 2nd pull of the olympic lifts done without the catch. You can pull from the floor or blocks, clean or snatch grip, and go for a preset height if so desired.

Push-presses- from a front rack position jump with the bar to drive it into the air, then lock out your elbows without re-bending your knees (rebend and you're doing a power jerk, go all the way down, squat-jerk, split to a lunge position, split jerk).

OH squats rock, but they need a lot of work. Starting with a broomstick is not a bad idea, then the bar for sets of 3-8, then add weight as you get comfortable with the lift. The stuff you're feeling in your upper back- probably some underdeveloped piece of lower trap or rhomboid protesting being put to work. Lie down on a medicine ball, resting on the affected area, and roll around some, that should help.

Andrew

[dougadam]

In my personal opinion squats would be much better than dead lifts. :)

[Samurai Jack]

In my personal opinion squats would be much better than dead lifts. :)

Why? Much better for what?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

In my personal opinion squats would be much better than dead lifts. :)

i dont mean any offence, but thats like saying dips are better than pushups.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Phoenix,


OH squats rock, but they need a lot of work. Starting with a broomstick is not a bad idea, then the bar for sets of 3-8, then add weight as you get comfortable with the lift. The stuff you're feeling in your upper back- probably some underdeveloped piece of lower trap or rhomboid protesting being put to work. Lie down on a medicine ball, resting on the affected area, and roll around some, that should help.

Andrew

i've also found that being able to put something against my chest and pulling towards myself helps stretch it out too. if that doesnt make sense let me know and ill try to explain it better. theres a doorway at work thats perfect ... i put my chest against the frame and grab on to a window ledge on either side and the stretch between my shoulder blades feels awesome.