The myth of the standing arm break...

[Knifefighter]

Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

[PangQuan]

i think, depending on the situation, the opportunity may present itself.

against a trained fighter? no. not very likely.

some drunk fool, who has his hands on you. there is a possiblity.

not all battles will be against a strong and skilled adversary.

though i agree that trying to impliment these types of techniques in an even match is very risky and foolish, that is not to say i believe all matches to be even.

my philosophy:

when presented with possible options for engagement and reaction, the most simple option, is more often the correct choice to utilize, as its chances for success increase dramatically compared to very detailed, advnaced and involved techniques.

so with that being said, even if i felt positive i could break some fools arm, i would not try it.

[Mas Judt]

Not a myth. I've done it.

However, a really skilled stand-up grappler is very unlikely to get caught in it, or for it to be effective as a break.

Perhaps you just aren't very good at it or don't understand how to make it work.

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps you just aren't very good at it or don't understand how to make it work.
.......LOL!!!!!

[Mas Judt]

I do agree that the simpler the usage, the more likely you will suceed. Although there are a great many skills that are simple. Often to me when people talk 'complex' they are really referring to 'unrealistic scenario'.

It's the legacy of the waiting lunge punch from JMA and KMA. The reality of the energy of a fight, the lines of extensin and reaction are much more important to understand than trying to stop a 'dead' arm.

There are things I consider simple that others view as complex, but it is a matter of familiarity. It goes the other way too. I see good fighters who do stuff I consider complex, but to them it is simple.

But then there are the fantasy pajama pants crowd. Which I think you are rferring to.

As a side note, I've noticed Muay Thai guys are the easiest to arm bar (due to thier emphasis in training - and of course, not ALL of them) and wrestlers and (good) tai chi guys are virtually impossile to establish a standing arm bar/break.

[Mas Judt]

I know KF, it's always humerous to tout ones shortcomings, but you really should give yourself more credit...

[Golden Arms]

How dare you imply that Knife isnt skilled in something..I was under the impression he knows and can prove wrong personally even material from martial arts that he has never practiced...Hell I am pretty sure he can prove the entire system of Baguazhang doesnt work just by watching a clip of it on youtube. You are dealing with an expert here.;)

[Ray Pina]

I have broken ribs on two seperate opponants, one was a TKD blackbelt instructor with his own school in NY, the other a 275lbs with over 15 years of Kali, Wing Chun and JKD training. Oh, and most recently the nose of a BJJ purple belt.

I have never broken an arm on an opponant and God knows I have tried. The arm is very easy to pull back into a strong and secure structure, it can also be saved by using the very mobile waist to change position/relationship.

Very uncool and unnecessary to attack someone who: a) posted something true, practical to know and relevant and b) who has more practical experience than most here.


The best way to get a break while standing is to scoop the others arm to where their elbow rests inside your elbow and swing like an uppercut and drive off the foot. Someone posted an awesome video of this being pulled off in Japan I think during an MMA event.

[PangQuan]

do you have a link to that video by chance ray?

that would be interesting to see

[WinterPalm]

Never say never...just because you don't train it or don't see it...doesn't mean it won't work. If you apply a proper hold and are sensitive and can feel where the person is going in their resistance, then I think you can restrain someone in a standing position and if you so desire, break their arm from that position. Several things come up though: putting them to the ground is a much better place to control them. When one resists it is easier to apply a hold than if they are loose and flow with the movement. In a full out fightin situation, striking is much preferable from my perspective. IN a sudden self-defense situation, using restraints can be a good option and surprise followed by breaking limbs can be implemented...a shoulder break, an elbow break, etc.

That said, why do you want to break someone's arm? Is it not enough to restrain them? I suppose the situation would dictate the course of action but I think it is possible to break someone's limbs standing up.

[lkfmdc]

you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance



glad at least you used a modifier :D


http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=5165845489798734503&hl=en

By the way, Aoki has sick takedowns and still jumps guard and jumps arm bar

[Chief Fox]

My old sifu broke one of his students arms. I saw it. It was one of the bones of the forearm. Sifu was demonstrating a hammer fist technique. The student raised his arm to block and got his arm broken. It wasn't severe but you could tell that something was wrong with his arm the way he instantly protected it. The next class, there he is with a cast on his arm.

Would you guys say there is a difference between a bone break and a joint dislocation? That video was very impressive but I would say that all of his techniques were joint dislocations and not bone breaks.

Flying armbar is cool!

[PangQuan]

glad at least you used a modifier :D


http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=5165845489798734503&hl=en

By the way, Aoki has sick takedowns and still jumps guard and jumps arm bar

nice vid man.

KF check the 5:05 point....

[PangQuan]

My old sifu broke one of his students arms. I saw it. It was one of the bones of the forearm. Sifu was demonstrating a hammer fist technique. The student raised his arm to block and got his arm broken. It wasn't severe but you could tell that something was wrong with his arm the way he instantly protected it. The next class, there he is with a cast on his arm.

Would you guys say there is a difference between a bone break and a joint dislocation? That video was very impressive but I would say that all of his techniques were joint dislocations and not bone breaks.

Flying armbar is cool!

definately dislocate. but still. if you can get the leverage to dislocate a pro fighters arm in a match...a break isnt far off.

[YouKnowWho]

Simple example,

- Your opponent uses single leg shooting and trying to get your right leg.
- You spin your body to your right and use your left knee to strike at his right elbow when his right hand has touched your right leg and his right arm is fully extended.

Please don't argue that this move won't work against a skillful shooter (I know some of you guys do like to argue). Try to repeat this move 100 times with your training partner and see what kind of "successful rate" that you have and then draw your own conclusion. Just something for you to try by yourself.

[SifuAbel]

nice vid man.

KF check the 5:05 point....

Oh well, so much for that arguement. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Simple example,

- Your opponent uses single leg shooting and trying to get your right leg.
- You spin your body to your right and use your left knee to strike at his right elbow when his right hand has touched your right leg and his right arm is fully extended.

Please don't argue that this move won't work against a skillful shooter .



I won't. I'll argue that that is veeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy unlikely to work against anyone.

[Ben Gash]

Dislocating an elbow takes much more force than breaking a radius, and has a MUCH more catastrophic and immediate effect.
As for impossible? Breaking/dislocating the arm is relatively easy, it's getting into a postion that is difficult. This requires a fairly high level of sensitivity training, and again, if your opponent has an equally high level it will be very difficult, but if your opponent has a skill level very close to yours ANYTHING will be difficult.
As I always say, if he's better than you then he's going to beat you.

[Fu-Pow]

I think dislocation would be easier to pull off than a "break". Usually, the arm is restrained at the wrist and pressure is applied to the back of the elbow causing a dislocation.

There is an easy way to do a dislocation as well. If someone tries to restrain one of your arms with a cross hand grab, you grab their hand and "roll" your elbow over there arm behind the elbow and now all you have to do is twist and you have a dislocation.

Its true that a skilled fighter is not going to try to restrain you with cross hand grab. Using the extremities is a poor way to control people if you don't have some kind of leverage at the joint. Striking and throwing seems to be easier to pull off.

[rogue]

Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

Thanks for telling me. It's a little late as I dislocated a guys arm in a fight about 25 years back. And it was easy.

[SifuAbel]

........... but if your opponent has a skill level very close to yours then ANYTHING will be difficult.
As I always say, if he's better than you then he's going to beat you.

You'd think this would be obvious.

[Becca]

I won't. I'll argue that that is veeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy unlikely to work against anyone.

This works just fine for me. Don't know what it has to do with breaking bones... but the technique is sound if a bit tricky on the timing if you're one of those people who don't see the point practicing it thoroughly once you think you’ve “got it.”
:)

[Ben Gash]

You'd think this would be obvious.

Apparently not if you're a hardcore JKD/MMA guy :rolleyes:
Anyway, this is the response I use when students come up with endless, increasingly improbable "what if"s

[David Jamieson]

Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

Bull**** KF, I've busted a guys arm from a standing position. I've also dislocated a guys shoulder from a standing position.

Yep, you can do it lying down as well I suppose. I've choked out a couple of guys on the ground.

Being up or down is irrelevant.

[YouKnowWho]

I'll argue that that is veeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy unlikely to work against anyone.
I wish I can say that any moves that

- Work without training are valid moves.
- Require training are moves "unlikely" to work.

This way CMA needs no training and only need common sense.

[unkokusai]

I wish I can say that any moves that

- Work without training are valid moves.
- Require training are moves "unlikely" to work.

This way CMA needs no training and only need common sense.



???????????????????????????????

Once more in English?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

Where does this guy get his generalizations?

Whose facts? What data can you provide? Do you have enough proficiency in Jujutsu, Aikido, Chin Na or Shuai Jiao to know this? Why should we consider you an "expert" on any area of the martial arts, MMA or otherwise?
Richard A. Tolson

[YouKnowWho]

Once more in English?
- Understanding the opportunate,
- Catching the right timing,
- Move your body in the right angle,
- Apply the correct amount of force,
- Remain proper balance,

Just don't come without hard training.

To thorw a basket ball into a basket from 40 yards away may sound impossible for none basket ball players but for professional basket ball players, their "successful rate" may be higher than 80%.


Where does this guy get his generalizations?
Because KF believes that "If it's not MMA then it won't work".

[hung-le]

Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

Knife: I’m assuming you are talking about “traps and grabs” fictional chin na...as I call them……which lead into stand up arm breaks which are prominent inside some CMA forms.

Yea, I would say on the surface that u would be correct, but then that would assume that the creator of the art (s) didn’t understand this very fundamental effectual truth. In Quanshu (a term I like use for reality based Chinese arts...) appearance and intent plus application are usually not what they appear to be

I’ll cite an example from my old art.

In a series of moves, "on the surface" it appears that with a circular movement using an out stretched left hand, I block in incoming strike to my right side, then come up underneath my left arm with my right hand I grab the attacking punch then I kick.

What’s the odds of that happening?…..slim and next to none. Who can snatch a punch out of mid air? Or break/dislocate the arm of a skilled opponnet standing up?

What that series of movements actually are: is an inside to outside scope underneath the opponent’s armpit with the left arm, (quite doable from any number of scenarios…) then using a piercing palm to strike to the opponents throat with my right, concluded by grabbing the trachea area and pulling back toward me while kicking the opponent center mass/groin area … away from me (i.e. trying to get a shearing effect) There is a head butt in there too...lol

would this work...who can say...point being..... its not what it looks like

To people who don’t know what they are looking at say “yea right…! BS! ” thinking the form exemplifies grabbing a punch out of mid air, then kicking the guy while holding his arm..... Chuck Norris style...!!

In most Quanshu: from what I've seen .....the real intentions are what usually follows those type of techniques (i.e. those that are supposed to grab, trap or break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

if its real Quanshu it should be something really nasty.

[Flying-Monkey]

i wonder when Richard Dawkins is going to write The Kung Fu Delusion book.:rolleyes:

[qeySuS]

I'd say it isn't impossible to break an arm standing (as proven by Aoki, possibly one of the best MMA'ers today). But it is a lot harder to get the leverage to do so when your opponent is free to move. Your options of pinning your opponent down and limiting his escapes are severely diminished when you are standing.

Plus the same really goes for this technique as for any other technique that you wouldn't do on your training partners (unless you're a douchebag), it will never get trained and thus very seldomly get used in any kind of real situation (let alone made to work). You fight how you train, and straight out breaking someones arm isn't something that you can train (and yes it's quite different from training joint locks i'd say, since there's really no intermediate stage where your opponent can tap since he feels the pressure/pain).

[Knifefighter]

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=5165845489798734503&hl=en
LOL @ that being a purposeful arm break. He simply was moving into a Russion two-on-one tie up- something you will see multiple times in most wrestling tourneys.

As I said, most standing arm breaks will be accidental, as was that one.

[Knifefighter]

i wonder when Richard Dawkins is going to write The Kung Fu Delusion book.:rolleyes:

Exactly...
Why am I not surprised at all the the kung fu internet warriors jumping out of the woodwork claiming to have broken people's arms?

[lunghushan]

Exactly...
Why am I not surprised at all the the kung fu internet warriors jumping out of the woodwork claiming to have broken people's arms?

I had a sifu almost break my arm once in practice, just showing me one simple arm break technique because he didn't let go soon enough, so I'd have to say it's probably possible at least with the technique he was doing. I've never done it, though.

[Knifefighter]

I had a sifu almost break my arm once in practice, just showing me one simple arm break technique because he didn't let go soon enough, so I'd have to say it's probably possible at least with the technique he was doing. I've never done it, though.
Of course you can do it on a complying partner who is giving you his arm.

[Knifefighter]

Simple example,

- Your opponent uses single leg shooting and trying to get your right leg.
- You spin your body to your right and use your left knee to strike at his right elbow when his right hand has touched your right leg and his right arm is fully extended.
Bwhahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!
Ah, another deadly "combat" technique.

[Knifefighter]

Dislocating an elbow takes much more force than breaking a radius, and has a MUCH more catastrophic and immediate effect.
As for impossible? Breaking/dislocating the arm is relatively easy, it's getting into a postion that is difficult. This requires a fairly high level of sensitivity training, and again, if your opponent has an equally high level it will be very difficult, but if your opponent has a skill level very close to yours ANYTHING will be difficult.
As I always say, if he's better than you then he's going to beat you.
Dislocating the elbow takes more force than breaking the radius?
Um, I don't think so. It's exactly the opposite.
That's why most arm bars dislocate the elbow and don't break the radius.

[lunghushan]

Of course you can do it on a complying partner who is giving you his arm.

Actually, no, at the time I wasn't giving him my arm. I was telling him that I thought what he was doing with a technique wouldn't work, so he said, Okay, Resist ... resisting actually made it worse and to top it off because he was trying to prove it would probably work he tweaked the thing and my joint popped.

I think if he had moved about 2 more inches it would have snapped.

And no, it wasn't the usual chi-na aikijitsu crap.

Anyways, KF, I'll give you that probably most standing arm breaks in most MAs probably won't work against people with training, but this particular arm break doesn't rely on that. Particularly vicious and easy to do, so I won't even state the technique except it's not a chi-na or usual aikijitsu technique.

[Knifefighter]

Actually, no, at the time I wasn't giving him my arm. I was telling him that I thought what he was doing with a technique wouldn't work, so he said, Okay, Resist ... resisting actually made it worse and to top it off because he was trying to prove it would probably work he tweaked the thing and my joint popped.

I think if he had moved about 2 more inches it would have snapped.

And no, it wasn't the usual chi-na aikijitsu crap.
Ok, I'll bite... explain the technique.

[lunghushan]

Ok, I'll bite... explain the technique.

Nope. It's way too vicious and easy to break. It doesn't rely on the usual forcing the elbow the wrong way.

[Knifefighter]

Nope. It's way too vicious and easy to break. It doesn't rely on the usual forcing the elbow the wrong way.
Bwhaqhahahahahaah!!!!
Oh, now, in addition to the deadly kung fu "combat" techniques that can't be practiced against a resisting opponent, we now have the vicious and easy to use "super-secret deadly kung fu combat technique" that cannot even be talked about.....

Just when I think kung fu cannot get any more ridiculous.

Now the techniques are too lethal to talk about.

Bwhwhahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!

[hung-le]

Knifefighter Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Simple example,

- Your opponent uses single leg shooting and trying to get your right leg.
- You spin your body to your right and use your left knee to strike at his right elbow when his right hand has touched your right leg and his right arm is fully extended.

Bwhahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!
Ah, another deadly "combat" technique


can someone actually spin thier body faster than thier opponent's forward momentum?

And if they got close, seems like they would get tangled in a heap and go down anyway....

maybe this would work if the shoot or take down was done poor

[lunghushan]

Bwhaqhahahahahaah!!!!
Oh, now, in addition to the deadly kung fu "combat" techniques that can't be practiced against a resisting opponent, we now have the technique that cannot even be talked about.....

Bwhwhahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!

It's just too easy -- honestly I wouldn't want it getting out and people using it on me.

You know, KF, I used to post inflammatory posts as well about techniques, thinking people would spill information, but I don't think you'll get much information that way.

If your only reason for posting is just to inflame, or argue CMA is ineffective, then I guess you're succeeding.

[Knifefighter]

can someone actually spin thier body faster than thier opponent's forward momentum?
Oh, yeah. The deadly "combat" SJ guys can do all kinds of techniques that mere mortals who practice their "safe" techniques against resisting opponents cannot do.

[Knifefighter]

You know, KF, I used to post inflammatory posts as well about techniques, thinking people would spill information, but I don't think you'll get much information that way.
Yeah, I sure am missing out on all those deadly and easy techniques that no one can talk about.
I am sooooo disappointed.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, I sure am missing out on all those deadly and easy techniques that no one can talk about.
I am sooooo disappointed.

No reason to be disappointed. Whatever you're doing seems to be working fine for you.

[hung-le]

Oh, yeah. The deadly "combat" SJ guys can do all kinds of techniques that mere mortals who practice their "safe" techniques against resisting opponents cannot do.

well If you cop any cool super secret whip azz techniques...let me know...till then....I think I'll stick to my sprawls, snapdowns and old school wizzers etc etc...

[SifuAbel]

Wow, KF has turned into the ultimate attention *****.

:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

- Understanding the opportunate,
- Catching the right timing,
- Move your body in the right angle,
- Apply the correct amount of force,
- Remain proper balance,

Just don't come without hard training.




I have done more and harder training in regards to takedowns than you are ever likely to do in your life. That is why I can say that defending a single by trying to throw a knee at the opponent's elbow is unlikely.

[unkokusai]

This works just fine for me. Don't know what it has to do with breaking bones... :)



You might want to read his description again...

[unkokusai]

Nope. It's way too vicious and easy to break.



Ah, that was a joke right?

[YouKnowWho]

I have done more and harder training in regards to takedowns than you are ever likely to do in your life. That is why I can say that defending a single by trying to throw a knee at the opponent's elbow is unlikely.
If you spend time to train it then it may work for you some day. If you don't then it will never work for you.


Bwhahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!
Ah, another deadly "combat" technique.
It may not be "deadly"" but won't be a pleasant one ant that's for sure.

Have you seen anybody died from a broken arm? I haven't.

[unkokusai]

If you spend time to train it then it may work for you some day. If you don't then it will never work for you.

You're missing the point. But, please feel free to keep thinking that whatever you can pull off against the McDojo spaz is realistic. :rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

If you spend time to train it then it may work for you some day. If you don't then it will never work for you.


It may not be "deadly"" but won't be a pleasant one ant that's for sure.

Yeah, my arm was sore for a couple of weeks after that.

I don't know what KF is so on about with breaks since even BJJ and Judo have a ton of breaks. That's why they usually tap, because if they didn't, something would break. (Duh).

[Knifefighter]

If you spend time to train it then it may work for you some day. If you don't then it will never work for you. You guys just love to argue before even giving yourself a chance to try it.

I'd say we've got better things to do that spending inordinate amounts of time on B.S techniques.

Let's see, I can spend my training time practicing proven techniques that have been shown time and time again to work... or I can do hundreds of repetitions of your questionable "combat" techniques. Hmm, wonder which route I will choose.

Tell you what... submission tourneys are open to all and all of these techniques are legal in them.

How about you enter one of these and show the video of you actually making this stuff work against a resisting opponent?

Then we can take your "combat" techniques more seriously and give ourselves "a chance to try it."

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, my arm was sore for a couple of weeks after that.

I don't know what KF is so on about with breaks since even BJJ and Judo have a ton of breaks. That's why they usually tap, because if they didn't, something would break. (Duh).
Have a problem with reading comprehension, do you?

Go back and read my original post about how you can purposefully break someone's arm.

[lunghushan]

How about you enter one of these and show the video of you actually making this stuff work against a resisting opponent?

Then we can take your "combat" techniques more seriously and give ourselves "a chance to try it."

Because honestly we don't care what you think, and don't want to share the breaks. It's pretty much that simple. :)

I calmly concede defeat at your debating hands, that you are the better person, most awesome fighter and only your BJJ and Judo sport fighting are any good. :)

[YouKnowWho]

I calmly concede defeat at your debating hands, that you are the better person, most awesome fighter and only your BJJ and Judo sport fighting are any good. :)

That will also be my last words. Long live MMA, BJJ, and Judo. :)

[Knifefighter]

That will also be my last words. Long live MMA, BJJ, and Judo. :)
Yeah... God forbid you would actually go into an open grappling competition and show this working against other grapplers instead of hypothesizing behind your keyboard and with your compliant partners

[Water Dragon]

I showed a couple breaks from Shuai Chiao to some of the Judo guys. Pretty much everyone with 15 or more years experience knew them, none of the other guys did. One was a basic arm break, the other was a leg break. Not only does this stuff exist, it exists in multiple grappling arts.

So much like Santa found out about he M&M's, they're real, they do exist!

[msg]

i dont think its that hard to break an arm standing or on the ground when i was traning kuntao/silat a lot of things we did was to break everything you touch . and bones are not that hard

[unkokusai]

a lot of things we did was to break everything you touch . and bones are not that hard



...................................:rolleyes:

[Wood Dragon]

Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.


I've done it. More than once.

Strike them in the face (or other handy soft spot), as this tends to make uke more cooperative, then execute something on the order of a standing ude-hishigi-juji-gatame (Cross Armlock, for you uncultured Speedo types).

More commonly, a detainee (in my case, suspected AIF's) will attempt to break an armlock, resulting in a dislocation at the shoulder.

[Ben Gash]

Most classical limb destructions focus on dislocation over fracture because A) you get a consistently reliable result (bone behaviour can be REALLY surprising) B) it is much more disabling, and C) you can train it safely and know the technique is working.
I work in an emregency department, and I can assure you that yes indeed, bones break VERY easily. As I will guarantee that I've seen more broken bones and joint dislocations than the rest of you put together, trust me on this one.

[Ray Pina]

Actually, no, at the time I wasn't giving him my arm. I was telling him that I thought what he was doing with a technique wouldn't work, so he said, Okay, Resist ... resisting actually made it worse

I've experienced the same thing many times. Yes, I was resisting once the technique was put in place. But could that position be gained and that technique applied while I am striking with full intention.... usually, I would say an adaptation or a change to a different technique would be needed in almost every case.

[Knifefighter]

I showed a couple breaks from Shuai Chiao to some of the Judo guys. Pretty much everyone with 15 or more years experience knew them, none of the other guys did. One was a basic arm break, the other was a leg break. Not only does this stuff exist, it exists in multiple grappling arts.
So much like Santa found out about he M&M's, they're real, they do exist!
Sure they "exist".

However, you won't see people being able to do them on purpose against a resisting and standing opponent like you will on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

Most classical limb destructions focus on dislocation over fracture because A) you get a consistently reliable result (bone behaviour can be REALLY surprising) B) it is much more disabling, and C) you can train it safely and know the technique is working.
I work in an emregency department, and I can assure you that yes indeed, bones break VERY easily. As I will guarantee that I've seen more broken bones and joint dislocations than the rest of you put together, trust me on this one.
Of course you see a lot of breaks... you are seeing the results of all the crazy things people do like hurl themselves from roofs. Working in an ER will give you a skewed reality.

Bones might be easy to break from falls from motorcycles, buildings, bikes, skateboards, etc... but they are very hard to break from a standing position with another human being trying to do the breaking.

[Knifefighter]

I've experienced the same thing many times. Yes, I was resisting once the technique was put in place. But could that position be gained and that technique applied while I am striking with full intention.... usually, I would say an adaptation or a change to a different technique would be needed in almost every case.
Exactly... of course the break can be finished once the lock is in place, regardless of resistance. Getting to that position is the reason they are so rare from a standing position.

[Knifefighter]

i dont think its that hard to break an arm standing or on the ground when i was traning kuntao/silat a lot of things we did was to break everything you touch . and bones are not that hard
Ah, yes, the Silat crowd... just as,or maybe even more, delusional than the kung fu crowd.

[Fuzzly]

KF always manages to make me smile. <3 to him.

[Ben Gash]

You really make me laugh Knifefighter. What's becoming increasingly apparent when I read these threads is that many submission guys are just as delusional as many kung fu guys, just about different things. People have their arms, legs, skulls, necks, ribs, sternums etc broken, people are killed by single punches, people are KTFOd as they shoot in EVERY DAY BY COMPLETELY UNTRAINED OPPONENTS. The delusion of many kung fu guys is they fail to appreciate how dangerous groundgrappling could be, but equally many submission guys appear to completely underestimate the dangers posed by striking, thinking they'll see and anticipate every strike and be able to react appropriately. "I'll close in and take them down before they get a chance to hit me" is every bit as delusional as "they'll be seriously ****ed up by the time they get close enough to try and take me down".
The truth is that if you engage in combat then you are risking death and serious injury. Training is effectively just playing the numbers to your favour. If you believe that no-one could ever hit you, or no-one could ever take you down, you're living in a dangerous fantasy world and will sadly find yourself bleeding to death in an alley somewhere.

[Knifefighter]

The truth is that if you engage in combat then you are risking death and serious injury. Training is effectively just playing the numbers to your favour. If you believe that no-one could ever hit you, or no-one could ever take you down, you're living in a dangerous fantasy world and will sadly find yourself bleeding to death in an alley somewhere.
LOL... since I regularly mix it up with other skilled, conditioned and resisting opponents in a variety of competitive settings, I think I have a pretty good idea of what can and cannot happen. Of course I can be hit or taken down... happens all the time to me and others. These things also can be trained so that one can make them happen on purpose as a regular occurance.

However, there are some things, that while they CAN happen, are very rare occurances and almost always happen by accident. Standing arm breaks are one of these things.

As I mentioned before, submission grappling tourneys allow any standing arm break that you can think of. How about one of you deadly kung fu (or silat) guys, who have all this history of breaking people's arms this way, entering one of those competitions and getting back to me with the video to prove me wrong?

[Wood Dragon]

However, there are some things, that while they CAN happen, are very rare occurances and almost always happen by accident. Standing arm breaks are one of these things.

May have something to do with the fact that few people go around attempting to break other people's arms....

The people who do practice limb-entanglement techniques (LEOs, Military, security, psych, etc) are focused on restraining the subject.

[Knifefighter]

Strike them in the face (or other handy soft spot), as this tends to make uke more cooperative, then execute something on the order of a standing ude-hishigi-juji-gatame (Cross Armlock, for you uncultured Speedo types).

More commonly, a detainee (in my case, suspected AIF's) will attempt to break an armlock, resulting in a dislocation at the shoulder.
What job do you have that allows you to regularly break people's arms and dislocate their shoulders without getting fired?

[Wood Dragon]

As I mentioned before, submission grappling tourneys allow any standing arm break that you can think of. How about one of you deadly kung fu (or silat) guys, who have all this history of breaking people's arms this way, entering one of those competitions and getting back to me with the video to prove me wrong?


And how often do arm breaks occur in ground fighting?

Not all that often either.

Dislocation (caused by uke attempting to manuever out of the lock) and elbow/wrist (cuased by too much force/torque being placed on the joint by tori) injuries, maybe.

I'm guessing you do not compete much?

[Knifefighter]

May have something to do with the fact that few people go around attempting to break other people's arms....

The people who do practice limb-entanglement techniques (LEOs, Military, security, psych, etc) are focused on restraining the subject.
Well, let's see then... who would have a more realistic perspective on whether or not it happens on purpose or, occasionally, by accident?

The people who never really attempt to do it on purpose because their job is just to restrain and control?

Or those of us who actually try to do it on a regular basis?

[Knifefighter]

And how often do arm breaks occur in ground fighting?

Not all that often either.

Dislocation (caused by uke attempting to manuever out of the lock) and elbow/wrist (cuased by too much force/torque being placed on the joint by tori) injuries, maybe.

I'm guessing you do not compete much?
LOL @ me not competing. I have had over 200 matches. I compete regularly.

Of course breaks don't occur that often on the ground... people tap before the break occurs.

[Wood Dragon]

What job do you have that allows you to regularly break people's arms and dislocate their shoulders without getting fired?

I don't do it regularly. It's happened a few times. Cost of doing business.


At the time I was a Rifle Platoon Leader (and, later, I lead a Weapons Platoon). Now, I'm a Company XO.

When you used a buzzsaw or sledge hammer to break peoples doors and then ransack their daughter's room looking for mortar rounds.....they can get a little excited (and Arabic culture does not produce many phlegmatic people, to begin with). Be rude to shoot them, hence the restraining holds. Sometimes, the result of forcing a restraining hold on a resistant subject is.......you guessed it, an arm break or shoulder dislocation. Other times, it was intentional, to neutralize a dangerous subject when they made their play for the upper hand.

[Wood Dragon]

LOL @ me not competing. I have had over 200 matches. I compete regularly.
.

The you know all that has been said, and are trolling.

[Knifefighter]

The you know all that has been said, and are trolling.
If debating with delusional people is trolling, then I guess so.

[Ben Gash]

Is your arm somehow less broken if it's done accidentally?
Why on earth would you want to enter a competition specifically to break the arm of another human being? That's not normal behaviour. People also tap standing up, so your last couple of counters have been complete nonsense.
Explain to me again why you come to a kung fu board to just talk trash about kung fu? The world and it's dog has lept up and said "BS, I've done it", which is fairly believable considering the numbers and mix here (I've never done it, I tend to work on the shoulder or wrist (or just wrestle) when I'm standing grappling, again my job would be somewhat upset if I started using a legally questionable technique on people, however I have used the hold for restraint effectively AND against a weapon), and you just accuse everyone of lying, you've also employed other troll-like activities such as ducking the main thrust to nit-pick a minor point in this thread.

[SifuAbel]

Stop feeding the attention *****..................

[Knifefighter]

however I have used the hold for restraint effectively AND against a weapon),
The "hold"?
I don't think a specific hold was being discussed here.
However, I am open to hearing the specific hold you are talking about.

[Fu-Pow]

i wonder when Richard Dawkins is going to write The Kung Fu Delusion book.:rolleyes:

LOL! I just finished reading the God Delusion. :D

[WinterPalm]

Richard Dawkins also wrote something called the Selfish Gene or some title to that extent...the intro with his outline for that book is mostly garbage...I read the jacket for the God Delusion and although I agree with many points, trying to put logic onto supernatural belief that all people everywhere have in one or another form, is just stupid.
I'd put him with Chariots of the Gods author and many other sensationalistic pseudo-scientific nonsense.

I think we should all bow to Knifefighter because he knows everything.

[FatherDog]

Standing arm breaks are very possible.

The problem is that it is next to impossible to fully control someone's body standing, without a wall or a floor to pin them against. This means that inherently, their body is free to move away from the force you are applying to the joint, nullifying it. This is why a standing wakigatame (for example) is an excellent "come along" technique for a bouncer to escort someone out the door, but using it to actually break the arm usually results in your opponent spinning around away from your force.

In order for a standing arm break to work, you must be applying the force faster than your opponent can move away from it, something that they will instinctively (ie, even if they are not trained) do to relieve the pressure. Therefore, standing arm breaks typically work only if you are either significantly faster than your opponent, or catch them by surprise.

Since in a streetfight situation, you cannot rely on either of the above being true, I consider standing arm-breaks not to be a worthwhile use of training time.

I would think that CMA guys, who put such an emphasis on training techniques that you can still use as an old man, wouldn't be so high on techniques dependent on speed, which is one of the first things to deteriorate with age.

[Mas Judt]

Father Dog, you've left out when you've stolen the other persons balance or position. That's what makes it functional. Otherwise it is easy, especially for a very strong person to escape.

[Knifefighter]

Is your arm somehow less broken if it's done accidentally?.
No, but it should affect how one approaches training.



That's not normal behaviour. People also tap standing up, so your last couple of counters have been complete nonsense.
Really?
From a standing arm lock?
Point me to some examples.

[Flying-Monkey]

Richard Dawkins also wrote something called the Selfish Gene or some title to that extent...the intro with his outline for that book is mostly garbage...I read the jacket for the God Delusion and although I agree with many points, trying to put logic onto supernatural belief that all people everywhere have in one or another form, is just stupid.
I'd put him with Chariots of the Gods author and many other sensationalistic pseudo-scientific nonsense.

I think we should all bow to Knifefighter because he knows everything.

You don't fully understand Dawkins.

[FatherDog]

Father Dog, you've left out when you've stolen the other persons balance or position. That's what makes it functional. Otherwise it is easy, especially for a very strong person to escape.

Give an example, please.

[WinterPalm]

You don't fully understand Dawkins.

Because I disagree?
I have spent a good time studying genetics from a historical perspective and a current up to date journal perspective...this is including evolutionary theories from across the spectrum including divine purpose, law of physics purposes, and natural selection, even including abstract purpose of genetic variation and development.
Sensationalistic writing and tv programming do kill most valid science in the eyes of the public because the actual studies represent very different and often skeptical perspectives that would not sell books.

In the selfish gene, of which I have only read his intro where he outlines his major theories and line of thinking, all I have seen is that he is outlining a psycho-biological affinity that carries over to socio-cultural expressions and determinants in terms of human behaviour and driving forces behind action and reaction. It is irresponsible to suggest that the purpose of variation, genetic change, and natural selection is to benefit the individual...this argument was done away with early last century...if a mutation does not benefit the individual in a way that benefits the group, the species will die out, and every species exists to an extent to reproduce and carry on the life of the species.

The individual is only really given a full appreciation under cultural ideologies and those vary across the span of the human species from idol worship of individuals, to selfless agrandizment and group mentalities where individual benefit is abhorred and social custom dictates the social good.

Thus, I see Dawkins very much wrapped up and clouded by a cultural ideology that he is using to benefit his argument and skew his science. Without a doubt, biology plays a part in human cultural expression and diversity, but it does not determine nor does it dictate those expressions and ways of life.

That said, I will be reading the full book.

Please tell me how I do not understand what he is saying and possibly fill in what I may have left out.

[hung-le]

Because I disagree?
I have spent a good time studying genetics from a historical perspective and a current up to date journal perspective...this is including evolutionary theories from across the spectrum including divine purpose, law of physics purposes, and natural selection, even including abstract purpose of genetic variation and development.
Sensationalistic writing and tv programming do kill most valid science in the eyes of the public because the actual studies represent very different and often skeptical perspectives that would not sell books.

In the selfish gene, of which I have only read his intro where he outlines his major theories and line of thinking, all I have seen is that he is outlining a psycho-biological affinity that carries over to socio-cultural expressions and determinants in terms of human behaviour and driving forces behind action and reaction. It is irresponsible to suggest that the purpose of variation, genetic change, and natural selection is to benefit the individual...this argument was done away with early last century...if a mutation does not benefit the individual in a way that benefits the group, the species will die out, and every species exists to an extent to reproduce and carry on the life of the species.

The individual is only really given a full appreciation under cultural ideologies and those vary across the span of the human species from idol worship of individuals, to selfless agrandizment and group mentalities where individual benefit is abhorred and social custom dictates the social good.

Thus, I see Dawkins very much wrapped up and clouded by a cultural ideology that he is using to benefit his argument and skew his science. Without a doubt, biology plays a part in human cultural expression and diversity, but it does not determine nor does it dictate those expressions and ways of life.

That said, I will be reading the full book.

Please tell me how I do not understand what he is saying and possibly fill in what I may have left out.


ohhhhh MY GOD!!

Now this is what I call a verbal backhand!

my eyeballs are stinging just reading this retort!

[Yum Cha]

Hey Knife,

Still on holidays, and popped in in a spare moment and found all these threads on standing arm breaks.

That story I told you about the standing arm break really got under your skin I can see. Must have really got you thinking to put so much effort into this latest flurry of threads.

Come on, you really want to believe, I can tell....give up the Mr Grumpy antics and come on over to the Yang and Yin side. Why be a groupie when you can be the real thing? With your training, you'd get good really quick, probably just a few years, training twice a day, 5 days a week like you do....

I'll one up it now, last year three of my guys defended themselves on the street.

One broke the guys arm, wrist and jaw, (the story I've related a couple of times) the other broke the guys knee, and the third broke ribs before a KO. All live action, on the street, in self defense. One ended up in court, the other two just left the scene before any reprecussions.

Gee, my work here is done. The sliver of doubt... You really want to believe I'm BS'ing, but you know I'm not.

For the record, as anybody who knows Pak Mei will confirm, we have a form that trains standing arm breaks: Saam Mun, 3 gates. But of course, training forms is worthless and weak, right?


BTW, Happy New Year guys. Health, wealth and happiness to ya'all!

[TAO YIN]

:D Shiot, I posted this on the wrong thread a while ago.

Don' forget, George St. Pierre, DID NOT kick Matt Hughes in the groin twice, and Krocop DID NOT pop Silva in the eye twice...



Extra, Extra, Read all about it...Extra, Extra, Read all about it...

-Joe, went to his local 18 hole golf course to take up golf. After talking with the Club Chump at the Pro Shop, Joe was very excited and remembered to take down everything the Club Chump had told him. After being screwed by The Chump for his new set of Ping Irons and Titleists, Joe went and bought some instructional videos, some gimmicks and gadgets, and the like...

Joe practiced and practiced, and played and played. On one spring day, he took a lesson from the Club Chump as they played a round. The Club Chump asked Joe, "Why do you want to learn golf so much?" Joe said, "Because I want to be a professional golfer." To which the Club Chump replied, "Oh, well, we have wasted so much time here then. I'll get you signed up for a pro am next week. You need to be competing." And to which Joe replied, "Man your good. I see why you are a club chump. Why aren't you playing on tour and beating Tiger???..."


-Man says to local community college baseball pitcher. "You got a good arm, why ain't you been recruited?"

-And as for the hustler at the bowling alley, the pool hall, and the swap meet...???


You decide??? Oh, oh that's right! Sport fighting is fighting, and fighting is instinctual and much less structurally complicated than all the above.


New MMA student, formerly a TCMA forms junkie, asks his Coach just before his first fight...

"Can I punch him in the eye?"

Coach says, "Yeah, try to work his eyes with your jabs."

Student replies, "But I can't finger strike him in the eye?"

Coach says, "No, it is impossible to finger strike someone in the eye. You can only punch someone in the eye."

Student replies, "But if I keep my hand open, and stick my fingers out and bend them a little like I always do during walking, and well, just most day to day activities, I've got more reach than if I just close my fist, right? And these gloves, they are giving me even more support!"

Coach says, "Punching someone in the eye is a gross motor movement, but finger striking someone in the eye is not. See, as you walk along during the day, you dont really notice it, but you are constantly clinching your fists."

After confusing the student for many many more minutes, especially about Matt Hughes getting kicked in the groin, out of no where a TCMA Sifu walks up and joins the conversation. He listens for a minute and says...

"MMA Coach I challenge you!"

MMA coach says, "Ok."

They fight for a good while and in the end...One got his finger and arm broke, the other one got his eye fuucked up, but neither of them went to fight Chuck. In the end of it all, as long as Tito Ortiz and Jenna Jameson make the Fighting Fuucker of the Universe....The world will find Utopia forever and there will be no more problems whatsoever. Speaking of which...

Did you ever hear about the man who thought he was good at sex? He couldn't make it in porn...Ha.:eek:

[Knifefighter]

Still on holidays, and popped in in a spare moment and found all these threads on standing arm breaks.

That story I told you about the standing arm break really got under your skin I can see. Must have really got you thinking to put so much effort into this latest flurry of threads.
Nope... wasn't you. I already know your stories are B.S.

The arm break thread was in response to the SJ thread where we got into it about "combat" throws.

[Wood Dragon]

Because I disagree?
I have spent a good time studying genetics from a historical perspective and a current up to date journal perspective...this is including evolutionary theories from across the spectrum including divine purpose, law of physics purposes, and natural selection, even including abstract purpose of genetic variation and development.
Sensationalistic writing and tv programming do kill most valid science in the eyes of the public because the actual studies represent very different and often skeptical perspectives that would not sell books.

In the selfish gene, of which I have only read his intro where he outlines his major theories and line of thinking, all I have seen is that he is outlining a psycho-biological affinity that carries over to socio-cultural expressions and determinants in terms of human behaviour and driving forces behind action and reaction. It is irresponsible to suggest that the purpose of variation, genetic change, and natural selection is to benefit the individual...this argument was done away with early last century...if a mutation does not benefit the individual in a way that benefits the group, the species will die out, and every species exists to an extent to reproduce and carry on the life of the species.

The individual is only really given a full appreciation under cultural ideologies and those vary across the span of the human species from idol worship of individuals, to selfless agrandizment and group mentalities where individual benefit is abhorred and social custom dictates the social good.

Thus, I see Dawkins very much wrapped up and clouded by a cultural ideology that he is using to benefit his argument and skew his science. Without a doubt, biology plays a part in human cultural expression and diversity, but it does not determine nor does it dictate those expressions and ways of life.

That said, I will be reading the full book.

Please tell me how I do not understand what he is saying and possibly fill in what I may have left out.


___
{o,o}
|)__)
-"-"-
O RLY?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Are we talking hyperextending joints, or actually breaking bones? CMA dudes often talk about "breaks", but it's a misnomer. It's simply hyperextending a joint. This is not that hard to do when dealing with infighting. Hell, you can do it by punching the air too hard or kicking too hard with too much extension. It takes considerable effort to actually push through a hyperextension to force a break, though--more than the usual "breaking" motion actually puts out--so I'm just looking to clear things up.

But as for actually breaking the forearm, etc....I'll agree that it's unlikely. Not impossible under very improbable conditions, but unlikely unless you're fighting a newbie.

But if you're talking about simple hyperextensions---it's not that hard, and it will keep someone from using that arm for quite a while.

[SifuAbel]

Shaolin wookie dropkicks the correct into a low earth orbit.

[Ford Prefect]

glad at least you used a modifier :D


http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=5165845489798734503&hl=en

By the way, Aoki has sick takedowns and still jumps guard and jumps arm bar

It's funny how one video that is clearly included in KF's example makes people scream and yell. That wasn't a purposeful arm break. It was accidental when moving into a 2-on-1 to complete a throw.

If you have a video if a guy in a full contact match actually executing a technique which has a primary purpose of breaking an arm, then I'd be happy to see it. Until then, I agree with KF.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

Do accidental breaks happen while controlling opponents on the ground? Yes. Do they negate the applicability of purposeful breaks? No. Does Kung-fu teach simple joint locks? Yes. If you continue some joint locks is it really that difficult to force a break? No. Can you apply the same locks on the ground? Yes. Does that make them more or less effective? No. Is Knifefighter losing this argument? Yes. Will he admit defeat and run to Unkosuckysucky5dolla! for comfort? No...(at least to the first half of that question....)

Most breaks are facilitated by using the body to get the correct force and leverage--and this often happens while grappling during infighting. If you can get your arm around someone elses with proper body position, you can break their arm. There's plenty of techniques--you just can't force them. When you see the opportunity, you can then exploit them. Surely you've heard of the figure 4? You call it accidental---nope...but it might not have been the original technique you went into the fight to exploit. If it's there, you can do it. As a consequence of this occuring during grappling, you can't aim to do this without some foreplay. Just like I can't whip out my c0ck, aim it at a chick across the room, shout "Go! Go! Gadget Go!" and expect to get nailed with anything but a lawsuit....

[hung-le]

It's funny how one video that is clearly included in KF's example makes people scream and yell. That wasn't a purposeful arm break. It was accidental when moving into a 2-on-1 to complete a throw.

If you have a video if a guy in a full contact match actually executing a technique which has a primary purpose of breaking an arm, then I'd be happy to see it. Until then, I agree with KF.


I agree....


IMO.... KF main argument is not that they don’t work if set….(of course they do…)

But they (standing arm bars etc..) are highly unlikely to get applied in a realistic setting against a skilled opponent. (same thing could be said about trapping limbs also)

How can this be argued?


However....IMO, To say a standing arm bar don't work would be saying that a submission doesn’t work? Do not submission guys set locks and bars one after another? Isn’t it if you slip out of one it lands you in another? Are submissions not used as threats and attacks to set up the opponent? In my day.. standing arm bars, throws and sweeps were used in conjuction with strikes and kicks to institute that same effect.


I’ve certainly applied standing arm bars in sparring (no breaks or dislocating of joints) against what I would call skilled opponents. (They knew standing arm bars were in my repertoire)

But I always had to initiate something(s) first within my skill set.

The higher the skilled opponent, the more you will have to work other attacks and defenses into the mix…

That goes for applying any technique not just a standing arm bar.

[Fu-Pow]

It is irresponsible to suggest that the purpose of variation, genetic change, and natural selection is to benefit the individual...this argument was done away with early last century...if a mutation does not benefit the individual in a way that benefits the group, the species will die out, and every species exists to an extent to reproduce and carry on the life of the species.

Its been a while since I've read the selfish gene but I'm pretty sure he never contended that at all. His point is that the basic unit of biology, the gene, is selfish. It's only purpose is propagating itself. If I recall there are several game theory models that he presents where sometimes propagation is benefitted by an individual organism's selfishness and sometimes by altruism but eventually the "system" reaches some sort of equilibrium.



The individual is only really given a full appreciation under cultural ideologies and those vary across the span of the human species from idol worship of individuals, to selfless agrandizment and group mentalities where individual benefit is abhorred and social custom dictates the social good.

Thus, I see Dawkins very much wrapped up and clouded by a cultural ideology that he is using to benefit his argument and skew his science. Without a doubt, biology plays a part in human cultural expression and diversity, but it does not determine nor does it dictate those expressions and ways of life.

Biology is a driving force but manifests itself differently in different cultures. Built "on top" of genes are "memes" or ideas. When you have a critical mass of memes you have a culture. However, memes must not violate the propagation of genes or you won't have memes anymore. In other words, you can have genes without memes (which is true of most of the living world) but not vice versa.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Oh yeah...well my Quantum Physics could kick the crap out of your lamebrain Biology any day!!!!


Bring it on Darwin-Boy!!!!!


Just kiddin'.....:o

[Knifefighter]

But if you're talking about simple hyperextensions---it's not that hard, and it will keep someone from using that arm for quite a while.
Hyperextensions are easier than breaks, but they are both hard to get on a standing, resisting opponent. Like breaks, hyperextensions are mostly accidental. when standing.

[Knifefighter]

It's funny how one video that is clearly included in KF's example makes people scream and yell. That wasn't a purposeful arm break. It was accidental when moving into a 2-on-1 to complete a throw.
Exactly... of course most of these people probably have no idea what a 2-on-1 is and that it is pretty much the real world application of what really happens when you get into the position to do a "standing arm bar" and that it almost always leads to a control position or takedown setup. Any break or hyperextension that occurs from there is accidental.

[Knifefighter]

I’ve certainly applied standing arm bars in sparring (no breaks or dislocating of joints) against what I would call skilled opponents. (They knew standing arm bars were in my repertoire) [/B]
For all you guys who are getting these standing arm locks, hyperextensions, etc, how is this happening?

Are your training partners tapping out when they are standing?

Or are they constantly having to recover from hyperextension injuries or broken arms?

Just curious as to how you are working these.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Okay....I see where you're going....

How do we know they work if we don't follow through?

Well--hyperextending a joint is easy. I've seen it done when some stupid kid didn't tap out on a routine hold put on him by a newbie. I've seen it when a friend whiffed a kick in a soccer game.

I've felt excruciating pressure that numbed my arm for a good ten minutes when sparring with a 3rd degree BB used a breaking motion (didn't follow through--but I knew he could)...

In my school, we tap out when it's applied effectively in an actual hold (very rare). But to be honest, it's usually so quick (and doesn't involve actual grappling) that there is no tap out. Straight punches and jabs are the most susceptible to this (mine was a jab). It was quick--I didn't leave it hanging, and he didn't have a lot of time to move. He just had to be faster, and get the right angle. But that's all a part of the "sensitivity" training you don't believe in. Will it work against anyone anytime? Maybe not....but on some blue moon....

When I got shocked by it, it was just *pop* and me flailing around for a minute like a Ace Ventura hit by poison darts....and then me nursing a really sore joint for a week. He just trapped the elbow between two hands at the right moment, and *pop*

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm not sold on their all-around effectiveness either, KF...

I've only actually seen that one applied the way it's mainly taught in form/drill...and that guy has a wicked fighting rep in our school.

But if he can do it, it can be done. You just have to be willing to sacrifice a guinea pig (in that case, me...:o )....

But against a boxer or cage-fighter---I don't really see it happening any time soon. It works best against controlled punches (on balance, less forward momentum, or straight leads). But since it has to involve two hands, or so much focus on one arm, it's unrealistic in match fighting--i.e. what if you don't get the right angle?

On that point I agree with you.

It's more what you'd use against Joe Schmo who can't fight at your level---just to let him know what's up.....

[Knifefighter]

Certain techniques are considerably more effective and efficient than others. A sure sign that a technique may not be that efficient is that it rarely works against fighters of the same caliber. Arm manipulations done on the ground vs. standing are one example of this. A person might be able to use standing arm breaks or hyperextensions against a complete slob on the street, but good luck trying to use them if you happen to come across someone who is not completely clueless. Trying to go for standing arm breaks and hyperextensions is a good way to give the opponent a chance to pound you.

[rogue]

Out here the army of the clueless out number the army those in the know. Just because it won't work against Tito's little cousin doesn't mean it's not a good technique against the average thug or bozo. You can what if any technique into the scrap pile just by creating adversaries that are better than you. I've used it, it worked, I'll keep it, and just avoid ****ing off any UFC guys.

[lkfmdc]

this thread is starting to burn out but let's ask a few more questions

KF, what do you think about arm bar initiated standing but end up on the ground

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/photo/vol03/02.jpg

I have a very good friend in the Judo world who had to have major surgery on his arm as a result of that variation

[SifuAbel]

LOL @ KF's assumption that all techniques begin the moments before you make initial contact.

I.E. standing in plain view.

As if someone is just going to reach out and try to grab out someone's guard hand. Instead, of this being a set of techniques, like any other, that are enacted in the correct context of movement and timing.

I.E. opponent already well in motion committed to his own attack.

Or do you never extend your arm for anything? :rolleyes:

The only thing left for you to do is to scour your UFC library and show us all the precedence you are talking about. WHEN have you seen this attempted and thwarted? If the answer is none, then you have only assumptions behind your logic.

The root word there is ass. As in , where this comes from.

Its obvious people's experience with this isn't enough for you.

Preach on, Reverend.

[Ironpig]

Yes, I trained to break legs, with Kicks. Its not an uncommon occurrence in KyokushinKai Tournaments that a leg is broken by a Mawashi Geri (round kick) SP? too many years now.

Never broke anyones leg. I used to be able to break a Louisville slugger, probably not that awesome to you guys.

Breaking bones is possible. Probably not that common. Dislocation of joints is much easier to obtain.

Limbs are less likely to break than the small bones in hands and feet, as well as face, teeth.

Sloppy grappling in bar fights probably resulted in more broken arms by simply falling on each other than purposeful attack on the 'street'.

Thinking about it, probably more people fell after the fight on the way to their car and broke arms than even that.

[matt]

I have broken ribs on two seperate opponants, one was a TKD blackbelt instructor with his own school in NY, the other a 275lbs with over 15 years of Kali, Wing Chun and JKD training. Oh, and most recently the nose of a BJJ purple belt.

ribs are pretty easy to break and training dont make you a good fighter just more knoledgeable about things you could do just like a degree in college doesnt make you an athority

I have never broken an arm on an opponant and God knows I have tried. The arm is very easy to pull back into a strong and secure structure, it can also be saved by using the very mobile waist to change position/relationship.

thats what chin na is for you control not let them

Very uncool and unnecessary to attack someone who: a) posted something true, practical to know and relevant and b) who has more practical experience than most here.

as always im a newbe but this post is inaccurate


The best way to get a break while standing is to scoop the others arm to where their elbow rests inside your elbow and swing like an uppercut and drive off the foot.

this is horrible and not correct! the best way to attack joints is to make a point in the middle of the joint and draw and x moving at forty five degree angles to the joint. On the elbow that would mean about 2-3 inches above or below the joint. Than you would strike into the joint this causes the bones to break. If you go elbow to elbow you might get a dislocation but never a break. You can however break the bone out of the flesh from a sever dislocation witch is not a real break but same result. If you apply the method of moving into the joint from the 45 degree angle im sure you might have more success


Someone posted an awesome video of this being pulled off in Japan I think during an MMA event.

have a nice day and keep working thats all we can do !!!

[FatherDog]

He just had to be faster,



Therefore, standing arm breaks typically work only if you are either significantly faster than your opponent, or catch them by surprise.

Since in a streetfight situation, you cannot rely on either of the above being true, I consider standing arm-breaks not to be a worthwhile use of training time.

I would think that CMA guys, who put such an emphasis on training techniques that you can still use as an old man, wouldn't be so high on techniques dependent on speed, which is one of the first things to deteriorate with age.

It seems we do not disagree on facts, merely on our reaction to those facts.

[FatherDog]

Out here the army of the clueless out number the army those in the know. Just because it won't work against Tito's little cousin doesn't mean it's not a good technique against the average thug or bozo. You can what if any technique into the scrap pile just by creating adversaries that are better than you. I've used it, it worked, I'll keep it, and just avoid ****ing off any UFC guys.

The thing about that is that techniques that will work on "UFC guys" will pretty much always work on the "army of the clueless". So you could train techniques that work on UFC guys /and/ the "army of the clueless, or just train techniques that work on the army of the clueless and /hope/ the next guy in a bar that thinks he hears you hitting on his girlfriend isn't a "UFC guy".

I don't think I have to say which path I consider a more efficient use of your time.

[rogue]

Whoops, I forgot that the Gracies have all the answers to street violence. My bad. In a street situation the last place I want to be is tied up with some frightened or pizzed off thug, standing or on the ground.


So you could train techniques that work on UFC guys

So you could take Tito or Chuck in a street fight? Cool.

[Knifefighter]

The only thing left for you to do is to scour your UFC library and show us all the precedence you are talking about.
The UFC people figured out years ago that this stuff doesn't work. Generally, they stick with stuff that works. People who try to use these types of techniques in a live venue quickly learn that they really can't be made to work in a purposeful manner.


WHEN have you seen this attempted and thwarted?
Quite often at the Dog Brothers gatherings, where fighters come from a variety of FMA and IMA backgrounds. FMA and IMA both include many standing breaks, hyperextensions and dislocations. However, as these fighters quickly find out, these things don't really work when you try to do them for real.

[Knifefighter]

this thread is starting to burn out but let's ask a few more questions

KF, what do you think about arm bar initiated standing but end up on the ground

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/photo/vol03/02.jpg

Same as the others. Any break that will occur will be accidental.

The main problem with that technique is getting to that position in the frist place... really doesn't happen unless you competely outclass your opponent. The closest you are likely to get is the same Russian 2 on 1 that was discussed earlier, which is more of a control technique to set up a takedown.



I have a very good friend in the Judo world who had to have major surgery on his arm as a result of that variation
Accidental, just like the time I broke my arm in a wrestling match from the referee's position. It happens, but not on purpose.

[Knifefighter]

In a street situation the last place I want to be is tied up with some frightened or pizzed off thug, standing or on the ground.
It's nice to have that as option, so you can choose that if you need to.

Much better than only having the standup option with no grappling or groundfighting ability.

Of course, some people like to believe that their standup skills will ensure that they never be in a grappling or groundfighting situation... which is kind of ironic considering that attempting standing arm breaks is exactly where that leads to.



So you could take Tito or Chuck in a street fight? Cool.
Nobody's saying they could beat Tito or Chuck.

However, why not train as if you are going to go against one of them?
Why train for the lowest common denominator?

[MasterKiller]

Whoops, I forgot that the Gracies have all the answers to street violence. My bad. In a street situation the last place I want to be is tied up with some frightened or pizzed off thug, standing or on the ground..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WtGyZdZ6zE

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform 'on purpose' will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing." (Knifefighter/Dale Franks)


***ABOUT 95&#37; TRUE. But I can tell you about one particular catch wrestling move that can break an elbow/arm/shoulder because I personally did it to someone once while rolling (ie.- ripped up his shoulder). Didn't quite appreciate how dangerous the move can be at that time...and have since handled it with extreme care whenever it comes up.

Remember the double wristlock (DWL) that Sakuraba pulled off on Renzo Gracie - and broke his elbow? (Some people refer to it as the kimura, as you know).

It started from a standing position and ended up as a finish on the ground.

The move I'm talking about is very similar: starts from a standing position while you are off to his side a little bit and almost facing him....you then turn completely into him and literally throw him over your hip (the one that corresponds to your arm that's directly on his wrist/hand area - and NOT the hip that corresponds to your arm that's snaked around his arm)...and you throw him while also cranking the double wristlock up and over the top.

Or you can do this by literally spinning/falling down in front of him and let him fly over your bent knees which are now in the air (he completely somersaults)...while you crank the lock.

You'll wind up in cross chest position (side control) - and his arm/shoulder could be kaput by the time you even land on top of him.

[rogue]

It's nice to have that as option, so you can choose that if you need to.

I fully agree with you. The more usable options the better.


Much better than only having the standup option with no grappling or groundfighting ability.
I fully agree with you. The more usable options the better.


Of course, some people like to believe that their standup skills will ensure that they never be in a grappling or groundfighting situation... which is kind of ironic considering that attempting standing arm breaks is exactly where that leads to.
While I agree with the first part the standing arm bar technique does not have any ill mental effects on the user. Now if you want to say that trying to use a technique at the wrong time and to continue to try to get said technique to work after failing instead of moving on is stupid, then I agree.


Nobody's saying they could beat Tito or Chuck.

However, why not train as if you are going to go against one of them?
Why train for the lowest common denominator?

Why spend time training to go against people I stand very little chance of meeting much less fighting? I might as well train to fight against ninjas and Bruce Lee as well. While I get what you are saying, I'm on a very limited training schedule and just don't have the time or to be honest the interest in spending that much time shooting for those goals.
What are we considering is the lowest common denominator and what makes you think that's who I train with?:confused:

[Knifefighter]

ABOUT 95% TRUE.[/B] But I can tell you about one particular catch wrestling move that can break an elbow/arm/shoulder because I personally did it to someone once while rolling (ie.- ripped up his shoulder). Didn't quite appreciate how dangerous the move can be at that time...and have since handled it with extreme care whenever it comes up.

Remember the double wristlock (DWL) that Sakuraba pulled off on Renzo Gracie - and broke his elbow? (Some people refer to it as the kimura, as you know).

It started from a standing position and ended up as a finish on the ground.

This is a common takedown and is exactly in agreement with what I am talking about.

You have to finish it on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

While I get what you are saying, I'm on a very limited training schedule and just don't have the time or to be honest the interest in spending that much time shooting for those goals.
Seems like you would want to spend your limited training time working the highest percentage techniques.

[Knifefighter]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.

[WinterPalm]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.


In training and in theory I would agree with this in terms of demonstration and execution in a training environment. You must have these in order to maximize an arm hold done to the point of breaking. However, unlike in training, an actual execution does not have to involve all of these. One needs to have control of an extended arm just enough to drive a very hard strike into the elbow to create a break. I"m not saying this is easy or that it can be pulled off 100&#37; of the time, but you can't neglect explosive application with no intent but to seriously hurt.
I'm familiar with some literature on Jiu-Jitsu that stresses you quickly get into position but then apply the pressure slowly so as to not hurt your opponent. That is what we do in Kung Fu. To break an arm or shoulder, you have to really crank it and blast into it full force. By applying gradual pressure you will need the above requirements, but to just give er, that can mean not having to have your list in place.

[rogue]

Seems like you would want to spend your limited training time working the highest percentage techniques.

Highest percentage in what regard, just beating the snot out of the other guy? Outside of training the only thing that has come within 100 miles of a fight for me this past year was two minor incidents with drunks at neighborhood parties. Both were handled very discretely with what you would call low percentage techniques, with no one hurt and nobody embarrassed except for being a dolt while drunk. Putting a Kimura or a choke on somebody or taking them to the ground would really have started situations that would be bad for everyone. So with my limited time I choose to train at least half my time for the highest percentage of what I will face given where I live and my lifestyle, which in itself takes care of most things. The more extreme things that can happen get trained also but I'm realistic about my chances of what I'll run into and appropriate response.


Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Can I ask what you are using for a reference? I've seen people hyper extend their elbows as a result of vigorous air punching, and I've been of the giving and receiving end of techniques that have resulted in hyper extended elbows with only one of the 3 items on your list.

[SifuAbel]

The UFC people figured out years ago that this stuff doesn't work. Generally, they stick with stuff that works. People who try to use these types of techniques in a live venue quickly learn that they really can't be made to work in a purposeful manner.


Quite often at the Dog Brothers gatherings, where fighters come from a variety of FMA and IMA backgrounds. FMA and IMA both include many standing breaks, hyperextensions and dislocations. However, as these fighters quickly find out, these things don't really work when you try to do them for real.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, if no video ,then its BS. Assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume.

[SifuAbel]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Nope. Try again. Not even close.

[lunghushan]

You know, I've had it with this thread and all of you in particular.

KF if I ever get down to SC I'll show you a couple of standing arm breaks since you're so adamant about it.

Sure if you're fighting somebody with a lot of training, it's hard, but stop dissing CMA.

You might want to get out more.

[rogue]

Wow, those last two posts were very insightful and really helped further the conversation. :rolleyes:

So for those of us the believe that standing arm breaks/hyper extensions work, when is the best time to use one?

[rogue]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
A Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
B Control of the opponent’s body.
C Isolation of the arm.
D A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.

In a way the above list is half right (A can be dropped IMO), you generally do need items B & C in some form or other. How much control of the opponent's body is needed can be argued, but I'm guessing that KF is referring to a trained, strong opponent who is as aware of your skills and what you are going to try to do. So his list is accurate for how he is thinking his fight will happen. Now if that's the only kind of encounters that will be faced then a standing elbow dislocation will probably not work. Of course those are not the only kind of encounters that can happen so...

[truewrestler]

Not sure if these were posted yet. This is one of the best grapplers in MMA Shinya Aoki who has pulled off a standing armlock in MMA.

Fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

Instruction for this standing armlock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uQGIbm1hiw

[Knifefighter]

You know, I've had it with this thread and all of you in particular.

KF if I ever get down to SC I'll show you a couple of standing arm breaks since you're so adamant about it.

Sure if you're fighting somebody with a lot of training, it's hard, but stop dissing CMA.

You might want to get out more.

Tell you what... if you can pull off a standing arm lock on me, I'll pay your plane fare.

[Knifefighter]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Nope. Try again. Not even close.

LOL @ clueless Abel, a guy who has probably never pulled off an arm lock against a resisting opponent in his life, telling me I am "not even close".

Bwhwhahahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!

[PangQuan]

So for those of us the believe that standing arm breaks/hyper extensions work, when is the best time to use one?

IMO

when you outclass your opponent/assailant, the moment presents itself, you have the confidence with your technique, if this type of bodily damage is required to end a situation/match.

strict requirements for techniques strictly governed by low success rate.

IMO the outclassing of your opponent is the key factor, next to training.

[hung-le]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WtGyZdZ6zE

this is great!

it even happens at the school level.... lol

Take me to the ground, so you got no place to run(crawl) , to escape. Makes it easy for my posse to pull a train on your azz.

a quote from " your average gang banger"...

[lunghushan]

this is great!

it even happens at the school level.... lol

Take me to the ground, so you got no place to run(crawl) , to escape. Makes it easy for my posse to pull a train on your azz.

a quote from " your average gang banger"...

And yet, if you argue that this is the reason CMA doesn't like grappling around on the ground, people say you're stupid. :rolleyes:

Honestly I think all you BJJ nutriders gotta get a clue. You're half pint short of a cup.

[hung-le]

And yet, if you argue that this is the reason CMA doesn't like grappling around on the ground, people say you're stupid. :rolleyes:

Honestly I think all you BJJ nutriders gotta get a clue. You're half pint short of a cup.

As someone who lives in Detroit

I agree...

last time I checked, thugs run in packs

[Shaolin Wookie]

I know how to end this thread. We've haven't seen the pink elephant in the room...and it's really obvious....

Knifefighter, you'll appreciate this...haha....

We practice "breaks" because they're part of the forms we learn. They might not be widely applicable, but since they're in the forms, they're practiced. It's called application. Like many of our occultic "secret tactics", they're not that good for most people. We all know what you think of forms, so we need not even ask what your opinion is of an unreliable tactic contained in a form. To you, it's all hogwash. But I can say this--at least we're practicing something, rather than just dancing...haha...

But here's the skinny of it. Reliable or not, useful or not. Some Chinese dude in the past was good at breaking arms. So this was obviously a good tactic for him. Some other dudes got good at it. They broke a few arms. They put it in their forms. They broke some more arms. Most likely, these dudes primarily fought in kung-fu matches, against kung-fu practitioners. Hence, these tactics are good against kung-fu practitioners. Maybe not against MMA'ers, but the UFC wasn't around back then. Maybe we're suckers for bad tactics.:p

Sorry guys, I'm feeling kind of generous today. Happy birthday, Knifefighter.:D

CMA guys won't like this answer. But it's the straight dope. Knifefighter wins. Forms do contain some unreliable solutions. But who knows, maybe someday you'll throw a lazy jab and someone will prove you wrong.;)

Forms are traditional. Learning all applications is part of the tradition. MMA doesn't really care for tradition. It cares about effectiveness. Personally, I like the traditions. Even the useless ones. I find them useful. There's something deeper in learning from the past. Just like in science. You can learn everything "true" from today's best minds, but you won't know how those minds were able to achieve what they have without knowing how the mathematics and sciences of the past functioned in order to prep the way. You've gotta know your geometry and algebra in order to chart the latest supernova, or to guage interplanetary movement. You've gotta know your geometry and algebra in order to understand your Calculus. It's all syncretic, dude.

To paraphrase an old kung-fu proverb: You're looking at your c0ck, Knifefighter. You've missed the heavenly glory.....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

So have at it hot shot!!!!;)

[hung-le]

Tell you what... if you can pull off a standing arm lock on me, I'll pay your plane fare.

lol...lol... that's like saying " I bet you can't punch me in the face" using the following rules.. you only get one punch and I say when and where you get to punch from...


It just dawned on me .......I'm wondering how would you find the time for this.

With over 200 MMA bouts under your belt…That about four years worth (fighting every weekend as I see it.) Your ongoing hardcore mma training: to include being a master with stick(s): master with the knife(s): personnel friend of Dan Inosanto, confidant to the Dog Brothers, and oh yea… being a "professional Kungfu online commentator”...with almost 3000 posts here on kungfu online…that’s a lot of post every day.



Are you sure you got the time…?

[Knifefighter]

this is great!

it even happens at the school level.... lol

Take me to the ground, so you got no place to run(crawl) , to escape. Makes it easy for my posse to pull a train on your azz.

a quote from " your average gang banger"...
LOL @ thinking the same guy couldn't have done the same thing with a sucker punch from behind while the guy was standing and exchanging with his opponent.

You guys are truly clueless.

[SifuAbel]

Your description of how one does a technique like a struggling weakling is humorous.

[Knifefighter]

lol...lol... that's like saying " I bet you can't punch me in the face" using the following rules.. you only get one punch and I say when and where you get to punch from...


It just dawned on me .......I'm wondering how would you find the time for this.
With over 200 MMA bouts under your belt…That about four years worth (fighting every weekend as I see it.) Your ongoing hardcore mma training: to include being a master with stick(s): master with the knife(s): personnel friend of Dan Inosanto, confidant to the Dog Brothers, and oh yea… being a "professional Kungfu online commentator”...with almost 3000 posts here on kungfu online…that’s a lot of post every day.
Are you sure you got the time…?
I normally train every day... I'm sure I could fit him into a session.

BTW:
200+ matches (not all MMA- learn to read)/25 years = 9 matches per year.
Stickfigting and knife work for 25 years = somewhat of a high level.
Trained with Dan for 8 years = know him pretty well.
Dog Brothers gatherings 7 or 8 years: no confidant, though.
3000 posts = much wasted time at work over too many years wasting much time arguing with idiots = idiot myself.

[Knifefighter]

Some Chinese dude in the past was good at breaking arms.
The fact that it is supposedly in a form has nothing to do with whether or not some Chinese dude was good at breaking arms.

[SifuAbel]

The fact that it is supposedly in a form has nothing to do with whether or not some Chinese dude was good at breaking arms.

Isn't it!?!?!? Form follows function. It didn't just "come to me in a dream". You still seem to be under the impression that this stuff was created in somebody's back yard the day before a tournament at the local high school.

Thats may be your history, but don't peg that crime on everybody.

There are just so many of these technoques, in so many different ways, it seems hard to fathom that they were all "invented" for show.

[SifuAbel]

Tell you what... if you can pull off a standing arm lock on me, I'll pay your plane fare.

Now you're confusing standing arm locks with a break. Your paradigm is shrinking, or is that your *****, oops.

[rogue]

The fact that it is supposedly in a form has nothing to do with whether or not some Chinese dude was good at breaking arms.

Poor misinformed Knifefighter. Don't you realize that if our Grandmaster pulled off a standing arm break 150 years ago we TMA people automatically get that ability just by doing forms or kata? A trick that you MMA fighters haven't learned yet.;) ;)

[Knifefighter]

Isn't it!?!?!? Form follows function. It didn't just "come to me in a dream". You still seem to be under the impression that this stuff was created in somebody's back yard the day before a tournament at the local high school.
Most of it was probably created over a long period of time based on what theoretical fighters thought should happen when fighting, rather than what they actually did... because they probably weren't fighting much. Real fighters have figured out it doesn't make sense to try to put things into forms.

[Knifefighter]

Now you're confusing standing arm locks with a break.
Either one- lock, break... the offer still stands.

[Knifefighter]

Poor misinformed Knifefighter. Don't you realize that if our Grandmaster pulled off a standing arm break 150 years ago we TMA people automatically get that ability just by doing forms or kata?
Oh yeah... how silly of me.

[lkfmdc]

Doo Wai and the white tigger style is now selling a DVD on 1001 effective standing arm breaks....

[hung-le]

LOL @ thinking the same guy couldn't have done the same thing with a sucker punch from behind while the guy was standing and exchanging with his opponent.

You guys are truly clueless.

lol.....man you must love being a pit fighter...

[hung-le]

I normally train every day... I'm sure I could fit him into a session.

BTW:
200+ matches (not all MMA- learn to read)/25 years = 9 matches per year.
Stickfigting and knife work for 25 years = somewhat of a high level.
Trained with Dan for 8 years = know him pretty well.
Dog Brothers gatherings 7 or 8 years: no confidant, though.
3000 posts = much wasted time at work over too many years wasting much time arguing with idiots = idiot myself.

You understood the context of my post. Wow, I am impressed

I think I’ve been coming here longer than you (not sure…though) I remember Ralek. I currently have 130 posts to my name.

You have almost 3000 posts denouncing **** near everything CMA on a site dedicated to CMA. Why?

Why would someone with your martial experience waste that kind of time and mental energy? I can’t comprehend this.

You can’t tell me that you haven’t walked away from your computer ticked off at what’s been said here…

Do you really care that much what unknown people (interment personalities) think about you or your words?

Does it matter that much that you had to post 3000 posts expressing your thoughts and beliefs?

I can see posting 3000 times if you are sharing good times and “no **** there I was stories” but you don’t.

Either you don't have the experience that you say you do or....you are pretty messed up in the head (.i.e. Priority wise …on what’s important )

and got no life....

[laugarkuen]

I do not practice standing arm breaks (dislocations, locks, whatever) because I go into fights intending to use them. I do not train punching because I intend to hit people.

I train punching because I MAY have to punch someone and I train standing arm breaks because the opportunity may present its self in a fight. If someone is daft enough to leave their arm extended and hanging then it would be rude not to.

I do not train for fighting a specific opponent (sp) as people rarely give you a vid of them fighting to study before they mug you. I try to cover all area with my training and in my experience standing arm breaks occur.

I have used a standing joint break on the street when I was attacked with a knife. Luckily they weren't an MMA cage-fighting gorilla.

Who honestly goes into a real fight (except security peeps) with the intention of any outcome other than winning? I say except security as the onus may be on restraint. Who honestly starts a fight and expects to finish it with one predetermined technique?

[PangQuan]

Who honestly starts a fight and expects to finish it with one predetermined technique?


i believe this is where the debate realy stems.

no one in thier right mind would enter a match, or if attacked try to pull of specific techniques. you do what you can, when you must, to the best of your ability. or you freeze and get MDK.

sometime it just so happens that the training for breaks/dislocations actually may come into play.

its an innevitability of statistics really.

now if we are talking premeditated standing arm breaks....not bloody likely, unless, as i have said before, you extremly outclass your opponent.

[Knifefighter]

YWhy would someone with your martial experience waste that kind of time and mental energy? I can’t comprehend this.

It's kind of like gambling. You know you're not going to win, but you waste a bunch of time doing it anyway.

I wonder if there is a 12-step program to stop arguing with idiots on a CMA forum.

[Knifefighter]

I have used a standing joint break on the street when I was attacked with a knife. Luckily they weren't an MMA cage-fighting gorilla.
Wow! There sure are a lot of CMA guys who have broken arms on the street. And quite a few of them who have done it while being attacked with knives... not only that, but they never seem to even get cut. I guess those Filipino guys who specialize in knives really don't have a clue when they say that most people will get cut when encountering a knife wielding opponent. Of course, they have probably never seen a deadly kung fu knife disarm that allows all these guys to inflict massive damage without getting scratched.

One teacher even seems to specialize in having students who are attacked by thugs on the street and breaking their bones with brutal techniques learned only in forms. One of his guys even broke the arm, the jaw, and the ribs - all while being attacked by a knife wielding opponent... and this vicious barrage was all completed before the opponent even hit the ground.

I am surely impressed with all the deadly kung fu killers walking around... I guess they are better than those lowly sport trained guys afterall... boy have I been wasting my time with that stupid MMA type training.

[rogue]

Now you know why I don't worry about getting into a fight with Tito, he's afraid to leave his house.:eek:

[hung-le]

It's kind of like gambling. You know you're not going to win, but you waste a bunch of time doing it anyway.

I wonder if there is a 12-step program to stop arguing with idiots on a CMA forum.

find it..... get it ...do it....

because you sound insecure......

[hung-le]

Now you know why I don't worry about getting into a fight with Tito, he's afraid to leave his house.:eek:

Now this is cool..

Knifefighter.... I didn't know you had a side kick.

[hung-le]

or...

Rogue do you prefer to be called wingman...

just let us know...

[Knifefighter]

because you sound insecure......
Of course I am insecure. I've been bombasting kung fu and I've just figured out there are all these deadly kung fu fighters out there who are probably going to break my arms, even if I try to fight them off with knifework- all while standing and fighting off all my MMA and BJJ cohorts who cannot harm them because they will remain standing (and of course they cannot be sucker punched from behind while attacking me) with all their superior rooting and mobility that comes from practicing their myriad forms techniques.

[PangQuan]

dont forget KF, you wont be able to cut us either :p

[hung-le]

Of course I am insecure. I've been bombasting kung fu and I've just figured out there are all these deadly kung fu fighters out there who are probably going to break my arms, even if I try to fight them off with knifework- all while standing and fighting off all my MMA and BJJ cohorts who cannot harm them because they will remain standing (and of course they cannot be sucker punched from behind while attacking me) with all their superior rooting and mobility that comes from practicing their myriad forms techniques.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........................zzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........................

Did u say something?

[laugarkuen]

Wow! There sure are a lot of CMA guys who have broken arms on the street. And quite a few of them who have done it while being attacked with knives... not only that, but they never seem to even get cut. I guess those Filipino guys who specialize in knives really don't have a clue when they say that most people will get cut when encountering a knife wielding opponent. Of course, they have probably never seen a deadly kung fu knife disarm that allows all these guys to inflict massive damage without getting scratched.

Wow! Your right Kf(c), it was dishonerable of me not to blood his knife for him. I tried to perform Seppuku that night but the knife just wouldn't cut my chi belly.

If I am not cut I am lucky, nothing more, no special skill, LUCKY! I was lucky then. That is all.

[rogue]

Of course I am insecure. I've been bombasting kung fu and I've just figured out there are all these deadly kung fu fighters out there who are probably going to break my arms, even if I try to fight them off with knifework- all while standing and fighting off all my MMA and BJJ cohorts who cannot harm them because they will remain standing (and of course they cannot be sucker punched from behind while attacking me) with all their superior rooting and mobility that comes from practicing their myriad forms techniques.

Finally you've come to your senses. Our job is done.

[SifuAbel]

Most of it was probably created over a long period of time based on what theoretical fighters thought should happen when fighting, rather than what they actually did... because they probably weren't fighting much. Real fighters have figured out it doesn't make sense to try to put things into forms.


For the life of me, I have never read anything more arrogant. Nobody but you and the people on your little block "fight much". :rolleyes: And obviously EVERYBODY here must be lying because YOU haven't been given the golden goatse of submission.

Yes, of course, everything was peaceful until YOU were born. People only "thought" about fighting until you came along.

I nominate Dale Franks the Whiniest Cheerleader of 2006. For here on out, anyone reading his posts must do so out loud in a high pitched, nya nya, up and down, ****y voice.


ROFL!!!

[Knifefighter]

Actually, you are right.
I need to revise that post.

People who fought for real probably did develop forms.
It would have been a great way for them to milk unsuspecting suckers. Tell them that the forms contained all their secret fighting techniques and would make them become good fighters.

[SifuAbel]

bwahahahahha

You write prissy cheerleader so well!!!

Thanks for answering 1&#37; of my post.

[unkokusai]

bwahahahahha

You write prissy cheerleader so well!!!.



but not as well as you, punk.

[SifuAbel]

LOL @ yukookiethighs typing "tough". :rolleyes:

[msg]

it looks and sounds like you are a master at the art of the keyboard and clicking of the mouse kungfu MR.sifuabel

[SifuAbel]

Another drippy noob............... :rolleyes:

[msg]

another drippy noop i dont understand what you are saying

[SifuAbel]

obviously.............. :rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Actually, you are right.
I need to revise that post.

Naw, you don't have to do that. We already know what you're going to say every time you make a post. There are about ten words in your vocabulary, and all of them are anti-CMA. The question is--how cool are you dude? You claim CMA guys are weak and unskilled because we don't fight, yet talk to us about fighting. No offense....wait, I forgot who I was talking to.............*Ahem*....let me start that sentence over again.

**** you.:D

Seriously, why are you even here, man?

Oh yeah.....on the UFC forum, nobody can spell correctly, and they're all braindead from bruisings they've taken from metrosexual speedo-totin' assjockeys. (Again, just kiddin').:p

Enlighten us KF....are you just here to "Flame On!" (refer to above paragraph concerning metrosexual speedo-totin', banana hammock wearin' assjockeys) or do you ever plan on actually contributing something of substance to the KFM forums, rather than playing the part of the Eternal Detractor (should be your new personal description)?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Actually, my own personal Jimmeny Crickett is right.
I need to revise that post.

I loooooooovvvvveeee you, baby!:p

[Shaolin Wookie]

HAHAHHAHA

Those two posts were purely demonstrative. They represent KF's argumentative tactics, which consist of flames/partial retractions.