Myth of the CMA forum

[Yao Sing]

Rumor has it there's an Internet forum that's all about Chinese Kung Fu and discussions center around all forms of Chinese martial arts.

Some say it's related to a hardcopy magazine. Anyone know where this fantasy forum can be found?

All I can seem to find is MMA round and round discussions. :(

[TaichiMantis]

Heh....same thing's happening at dragonslist. Face it, they won't be satisfied until they achieve world domination.


BWAHAHAHAHA!:cool:

[bodhitree]

i agree, the debates are tired, very very tired. I don't practice CMA anymore but don't feel the need to argue why I don't.

[SPJ]

The myth about a forum is to clear things or "demyth" myths.

oops. My tongue stuck.

MMA or not. Any martial arts require practice overtime. Any skills take practice overtime to get good. Well they are Kung Fu.

whatever style, MMA=MT+BJJ is also a style and Kung Fu.

MT from Thai boxing, several hundred years old or older.

BJJ 3 generations or more and then from Japan--

Are they new?

--

:)

[bodhitree]

you are contributing to the tired debate.

[Shaolin Wookie]

From what I've heard, MMA is just another front for Scientology....

They're out to get us, man. They'll stop at nothing. You see, the IRS, in league with the English banks, means to keep us thrall to Intergalactic Warlord, Lord Xenu's vicous body thetans.....

Wait....who's that knockin' at my door?

Oh ****!!!!!!!

*crash* *boom* *clang*

Take that, you MMMutha****a!!!!!

[Ravenshaw]

A debate of CMA v. MMA is still about CMA. I mostly see this here in the General forum. I go to the Southern or Shaolin forums for other aspects of CMA.

A few years ago, I completely avoided the General forum because I felt threatened by the CMA critics. Now that I'm somewhat more open-minded, I find it helpful to keep my training under constant scrutiny. Just take it all with a grain of salt.

[street_fighter]

The fact that 90%+ of these discussions has not been initiated by an MMAer should speak volumes on the issue.

[SifuAbel]

The fact that 90%+ of these discussions has not been initiated by an MMAer should speak volumes on the issue.

Actually, that would make no sense. "these" discussions? what part of your anus did this brain **** come from?

Boy, you are the embodiment of whats wrong with this forum. WTF, does an upstart 17 year old BOY know? Not a whole heck of a lot, thats what.

The LAST thing we need is another whining mimi kid coming in here regergitating the same old BS he learned on the 1nt3rn3tz trying to look cool in front of his friends.

[omarthefish]

Rumor has it there's an Internet forum that's all about Chinese Kung Fu and discussions center around all forms of Chinese martial arts.

Some say it's related to a hardcopy magazine. Anyone know where this fantasy forum can be found?:(

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi#xing

:D

[lunghushan]

You are a very sad, frustrated man, arent you.

Yeah, it is pretty pathetic to pick on somebody just because they're young. I have to agree having argued with Golden Arhat about life after 20, that considering he's only 16, I probably shouldn't have entered into a debate about that, but just because somebody's 17 doesn't mean they don't know anything.

When I was younger, I used to hang around with a lot of young people who at 13 had a lot more experience in some areas and a better handle on some things than many adults.

[SifuAbel]

Pft, Both of you are idiots.

[lunghushan]

Pft, Both of you are idiots.

Whatever, dude. :)

[GeneChing]

That's a shame, really. Our focus at KungFuMagazine.com is CMA, first and foremost, but this is a forum, open to all comers. It wouldn't be authentic if we were to eliminate those outside of CMA. To remain vital, CMA must exist in context of modern times. While many think this is new, some backlash from MMA perhaps, if you study history, you know that all traditional martial arts have been grappling with issues of validity for the past several centuries. MMA poses less of a threat than the personal firearm did.

A part of me wants to blame the recent rudeness on our forum on MMA phenomenon. Don't get me wrong - I love MMA - but it's rampant commercialism has brought about a general loss of etiquette in the martial arts. That's the real sacrifice and something we'll all have to deal with in the future. But truth be told, I don't really think that's what's at fault here. It's more the insecurities of the traditionalists, and I say that as a traditionalist. In general, traditionalists are too easily sucker-punched by the ol' MMA 'real in the ring' debate.

We crossed a critical landmark when we topped 10,000 members (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44045). Since then, we've been receiving about two to three dozen spambot membership applications a day. We filter that, of course. But along with the increased traffic, we've been getting more newbies. Here again, there's been a drift towards rudeness at the newbies. I think this is a result of the current state of netiquette along with fallout from the trolling. It's a shame too, because if you think about it, you wouldn't treat a beginning student so rudely. Everyone is a beginner once. When we get rude to beginners for no other reason than knee-jerk reaction, we start to lose sight of the future.

OK, that being said, Yao Sing, I echo Ravenshaw here. This is a large forum. There are plenty of great CMA thread if you poke around. If you spend all the time stuck in CMA vs. MMA debates, that's really your fault. You're just looking in the wrong place.

[Chief Fox]

Yao Sing just got the virtual crotch kick! POW!:eek:

[lunghushan]

I think this is a result of the current state of netiquette along with fallout from the trolling. It's a shame too, because if you think about it, you wouldn't treat a beginning student so rudely. Everyone is a beginner once. When we get rude to beginners for no other reason than knee-jerk reaction, we start to lose sight of the future.


I just get tired of being called a troll.

You try to debate some issue, people don't like it, so they call you some troll instead of trying to reason for themselves.

I have to admit that I think my posts have gotten more rude recently as a backlash against that.

The MMA vs. CMA thing is a perfect example of that because everybody seems so stuck with their view. They don't really seem to want to think about the other side -- they'd just rather attack.

Perhaps this phenomena is because some people aren't getting enough fighting outside the forum -- I don't know.

But it's not just the forum -- it's also driving and life in general. As life is getting harder people don't take the time to reason -- they'd rather just attack.

[PangQuan]

if you feel somone is posting/responding, soley with the intent of arguing/insulting....ignore them.

you dont HAVE to debate anything.

trying to convince others that your point of view/training is the correct way is near pointless.

you will find that 90% + of the people on this forum are set in their ways.

you are the master of your domain.

[hung-le]

From what I've heard, MMA is just another front for Scientology....

They're out to get us, man. They'll stop at nothing. You see, the IRS, in league with the English banks, means to keep us thrall to Intergalactic Warlord, Lord Xenu's vicous body thetans.....

Wait....who's that knockin' at my door?

Oh ****!!!!!!!

*crash* *boom* *clang*

Take that, you MMMutha****a!!!!!



ha ha ha !!! oops fell off my chair

[Knifefighter]

Actually, that would make no sense. "these" discussions? what part of your anus did this brain **** come from?

Boy, you are the embodiment of whats wrong with this forum. WTF, does an upstart 17 year old BOY know? Not a whole heck of a lot, thats what.

The LAST thing we need is another whining mimi kid coming in here regergitating the same old BS he learned on the 1nt3rn3tz trying to look cool in front of his friends.
He is much more well informed than you are. If you look back over the various threads, you will find that MMA people generally start few threads and don't post on threads that aren't either about some portion of MMA or that include some ill informed comment about MMA by a CMA guy who doesnt' have a clue about MMA or grappling.

I doubt you will see any MMA interjections in the threads about axe fighting, CMA teachers' bios, dedicated CMA students, 5 animal 5 element forms, refinishing a drum, James Cama Teaching Southern Praying Mantis at Chinatown Sports Club, Cha style long fist, EBMAS, Kungfu in San Diego/ South Orange County, Falun Gong, Kungfu in San Diego/ South Orange County, 18 Daoist Palms System, James McNeil's Iron Palm training, Yue Fei really creating Eagle Claw, or any of hundreds of other threads about kung fu.

It's hard not to comment when some clueless rube talks about how he would poke Chuck Lidell's eyes out.

[couch]

It's hard not to comment when some clueless rube talks about how he would poke Chuck Lidell's eyes out.

It's hard not to comment, but that person still has to walk their path.

There are plenty of us kickin it on the forum, talking about pressure testing...and hopefully the nubes will catch on...but it's all up to them.

There are many more "traditionalists" around than any other CMA practicioners. They can have their piece of the pie!

...and if I got Chucky coming after me...maybe a poke in the eyes as he sniffs a rail isn't such a bad idea.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Yao Sing]

In all honesty this was pretty much a joke thread. I don't take much of this place serious anymore. I'm surprised it went beyond one page. I expected a couple of oddball comments and then it disappears.

Just shows you the state of conversation on this forum. A shining example of why I don't take this place serious.

Personally, I don't mind the MMA participation as long as it's technical discussion. The insulting comments and wide generalizations that CMA techniques don't work etc. are just a waste of time.

If you think something doesn't work then explain why. Offer a better way if you have one. If someone prefers to stick with what works for them then respect their choice instead of claiming they're clueless and in fantasy land. It's obvious there's an 'us vs them' undertone to half the threads here.

Merryprankster is a good example of discussing CMA from a MMA perspective. Knifefighter is the worst, mostly taking jabs and provoking.

Maybe give people the benefit of doubt. If I say I've used a certain technique with success why do I need to provide video and affidavits from eyewitnesses? Take it with a grain of salt if you want to don't call me a liar.

And you're right about the recent trend of rudeness. It seems to have hit an all time high around here. That's what happens when people can't have a civil conversation. It all devolves.

[SifuAbel]

A part of me wants to blame the recent rudeness on our forum on MMA phenomenon. Don't get me wrong - I love MMA - but it's rampant commercialism has brought about a general loss of etiquette in the martial arts. That's the real sacrifice and something we'll all have to deal with in the future. But truth be told, I don't really think that's what's at fault here. It's more the insecurities of the traditionalists, and I say that as a traditionalist. In general, traditionalists are too easily sucker-punched by the ol' MMA 'real in the ring' debate.



Wow, 1998 called, they want thier realization back. Recent rudeness? There's nothing recent about it. CMA has been a whipping dog on this site for nearly a decade. I remember a time here where If you weren't fellating Royce Gracie's effigy you were taken out back and shot.

[SifuAbel]

I
Maybe give people the benefit of doubt. If I say I've used a certain technique with success why do I need to provide video and affidavits from eyewitnesses?

Because He is a wanker...........

You do realize its all small man syndrome. You know, " if you can't make yourself bigger, then try your best to make everyone smaller." God forbid we lowly CMA guys bite the doggy treat off our noses before the "mazta" says so.

[unkokusai]

CMA has been a whipping dog on this site for nearly a decade. .

The master of whining-fu shows his 'form' :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Sure there's been CMA detractors all along. That's to be expected. And the CMA vs. MMA argument is been replayed over and over, like a bad youtube vid. However, over the last few months, there has been a recent trend towards exceptional rudeness on the main forum in particular. Despite Yao Sing's 'joke thread' comment, obviously this touched a nerve. And clearly it's not the only thread to address this issue here lately. Perhaps because we haven't had a good banning run in a spell. Perhaps it's fallout from the holidays. I'm hoping it passes. Should it be taken seriously? Well, the forum, like any community, especially a martial community, has its share of *******s. If we banned all the *******s, well, that's just unnatural. At the same time, there are plenty of interesting members here so I still enjoy the discussions. And I take my enjoyment very seriously. :)

[lkfmdc]

Gene, there is an obvious answer. Anyone who mis-behaves should be temporarily banned AND be forced to post for a few weeks over at the BFP forum :eek:

:D

I'd normally say Happy New Year, but the real one isn't here yet ;)

[hung-le]

Wow, 1998 called, they want thier realization back. Recent rudeness? There's nothing recent about it. CMA has been a whipping dog on this site for nearly a decade. I remember a time here where If you weren't fellating Royce Gracie's effigy you were taken out back and shot.

yep, I second that, I rememeber those days

[hung-le]

The master of whining-fu shows his 'form' :rolleyes:

You got to be kidding… you are one of the biggest advocates of CMA shagging here. With over 1500 post to your name and about 90% of it anti CMA, just like I asked Knife fighter…why do you continue come here?

I don’t post much, yet I’ve been here since the days of Ralek. I don’t think I’ve read anything that you have posted that is decent or tuley positive about a Chinese martial art.

[hung-le]

Sure there's been CMA detractors all along. That's to be expected. And the CMA vs. MMA argument is been replayed over and over, like a bad youtube vid. However, over the last few months, there has been a recent trend towards exceptional rudeness on the main forum in particular. Despite Yao Sing's 'joke thread' comment, obviously this touched a nerve. And clearly it's not the only thread to address this issue here lately. Perhaps because we haven't had a good banning run in a spell. Perhaps it's fallout from the holidays. I'm hoping it passes. Should it be taken seriously? Well, the forum, like any community, especially a martial community, has its share of *******s. If we banned all the *******s, well, that's just unnatural. At the same time, there are plenty of interesting members here so I still enjoy the discussions. And I take my enjoyment very seriously. :)


This explains a lot……


What planet are you on?

There are about six guys with the names of “Mr jujigatme”, “Mr shime waza,” “trangle.4you”, “Stickfighter,” “ChokeUout” and “SubmitUhard.” (obviously …not their internet names ) that have a MMA vent and have hijacked this news group from time to time.

I truly wondered if their was a moderator…Now I understand….

[Knifefighter]

You got to be kidding… you are one of the biggest advocates of CMA shagging here. With over 1500 post to your name and about 90% of it anti CMA, just like I asked Knife fighter…why do you continue come here?
We have so many posts because we only post under one name, rather than pretending to be several different people.

[hung-le]

We have so many posts because we only post under one name, rather than pretending to be several different people.

This is the best u got? ..to claim I have multiple names… no honestly, hung le is my only name.


You and the other of your ilk......have no defense …thousands of posts crapping on CMA ….at a site dedicated to CMA..


How lame is that…?

You got a life? You got a job? You got a girl.....?

I’m home on vacation… what’s your excuse day after day after day….of posting nothing but crap designed to feed your ego….

Please explain. I would like to hear this….

[hung-le]

You sound like your near forty...how are you acting mature?

[lkfmdc]

hung-le, I think you should challenge Knifefighter now..... don't just leave us all hanging :D

[hung-le]

hung-le, I think you should challenge Knifefighter now..... don't just leave us all hanging :D

lol... That is their answer to everything isn’t it……...

[Chief Fox]

MMA people and Kung Fu people are different.

MMA people are agressive and want to win at any cost.

Kung Fu people are more into history, tradition and respect.

MMA is real popular now so I bet there's more agressive and rude behavior on all martial art discussion boards.

It's pretty simple really.

I remember a few years back when I used to post on Bullshido. I read a post about one guy who said that he was going to stop visiting Bullshido because it had affected his behavior. He started to have the "if you don't have it on video, then it didn't happen" and the "STFU NOOB!" attitude at work. Life became more about "being" right, rather than doing what was right.

I really think that the general MMA/UFC/PRIDE fan attitude is agressive and rude.

Take a look at all of the in-fighting over at Sherdog. It's ridiculous.

I could be wrong.

[MasterKiller]

MMA people and Kung Fu people are different.

MMA people are agressive and want to win at any cost.

Kung Fu people are more into history, tradition and respect.

So where does that leave the Kung Fu MMA people like myself?

[Chief Fox]

So where does that leave the Kung Fu MMA people like myself?

That's easy. You're a person who respects tradition agressively. :D

Actually, my first explaination was over simplified and very much a generalization.

There is crossover. I think the crossover is part of what makes this forum unique. We have people that are very much into Kung Fu. Then we have people who are into MMA but with a Kung Fu twist and every shade of gray inbetween.

There is a problem in Kung Fu/CMA. There are too many fakes. Too much BS. Too much mystery and unbelievable stories. Kung Fu has been around for a long long time but this MMA revolution comes along and they are calling us out.

Kung Fu/CMA is at a crossroads right now. I believe that something needs to change. Look at Cung Lee. There's nobody left for him to fight. No up-and-comers. So he's moving over to MMA. Will he dominate there like he has in San Shou? I think he'll do ok, but he won't dominate.

All this rude/agressive talk is Kung Fu's wake up call. MMA isn't coming. It's here. And it looks like it will be here for quite a while.

So to answer your question. Where does it leave the Kung Fu MMA people like Master Killer. I think it leaves people like you as the future of Kung Fu. Hopefully, myself and many others will be there with you.

[GeneChing]

I don't think Cung Le (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=263) is moving from San Shou to MMA because he's run out of people to fight. I think it's more for the long green. Exactly how much $$ can you make fighting san shou? And how much in MMA?

I agree that martial arts is at a crossroads of sorts, but not just CMA. CMA might not be the best in the MMA world, but it still offers plenty that MMA doesn't offer. Money isn't one of them, though.

[Chief Fox]

I don't think Cung Le (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=263) is moving from San Shou to MMA because he's run out of people to fight. I think it's more for the long green. Exactly how much $$ can you make fighting san shou? And how much in MMA?

I agree that martial arts is at a crossroads of sorts, but not just CMA. CMA might not be the best in the MMA world, but it still offers plenty that MMA doesn't offer. Money isn't one of them, though.
I admit, that I was reaching with the whole why Cung Le is leaving San Shou assumption but even that articel hinted that he's the best in the game. Leading to your point, a game with very little $$.

I also agree that CMA has a lot to offer that MMA doesn't. But I think that there must be a reason as to why CMA has been left out of the MMA equation.

CMA is hard to test. There are so many styles. And to place credit where credit is due, your Chin Woo special edition got me thinking this way.

Basically, we are being called Sick Men of CMA by MMA.

I believe that CMA needs a revolution, needs to be united. So many different styles, in my opinion make CMA weak.

Sick Men of CMA UNITE!

[The Xia]

We all know that there is a lot of B.S. masquerading as TMA. This came about because of many factors but that's another thread. Then we have MMA. It started as a venue and developed into a style that picks parts of a few different arts and combines them (Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, Wrestling, and some Judo). If you notice, there is nothing new about those styles but they weren't plagued with the amount of B.S.ers as other arts. So the new style of MMA combined aspects of those styles into one system that responds to the needs of these up and coming NHB ring fighters. The facts are that realistic venues have existed before the UFC. It's just that all the point sparring tournaments obscure their memory. The other fact is that real life and death fighting is found in TMA history. However, the B.S. made people forget real TMA and when the UFC and the MMA craze came along some people developed a sentiment of "This new style, MMA, is the ultimate in combat and everything else is one big joke." Some TMA people that hear this take offense and verbally spar back and forth ad nauseam. Perhaps the most devastating weapon in the MMA side's arsenal is, "Well why don't you see TMA winning the UFC?". In reality this isn’t so big and bad an argument as some would have you believe. I feel the answer lies in the fact that most TMA people don't care what some MMA people that go on a campaign of bashing TMA (which seems to me to be more of an internet thing anyway) think about them. TMA stylists that want to fight generally gravitate towards other venues (such as San Shou for CMA) then the ones that MMA stylists go for. That’s just the way of things. Another thing that is important to remember is that the ring isn't the street. There aren't multiple opponents, weapons, and no rules as to what techniques you can or can't use on the streets. TMA is tailored for the streets. Many of the techniques won't be used in the ring if a TMA stylist competes. For example, a Choy Lay Fut trademark is the panther fist. That won't be something a Choy Lay Fut guy will use in San Da, but he may use it on the streets. I’m not saying that the ring has no value. I’m saying that it isn’t the streets and that TMA developed for the streets. Martial arts have a lot to offer. For those not interested in the full package, all this stuff probably never crosses the mind. For serious practitioners, you have to find your way. My advice is to find a good, legit teacher(s) and learn a style(s) that suits you. If you have this, who cares what some MMA people say. Develop as a martial artist and be wary of the B.S. (If you are educated, you can spot it). Another point I'd like to touch upon is how people say that TMA has to "evolve" and "modernize". The way I see it, the B.S. isn't traditional, because real traditional martial arts are effective systems. So instead of modernizing, TMA should go back to its roots. This leads to the question of how to do that. Well, good TMA is already there. It's the B.S.ers that aren't. The next logical step is how to remove the B.S. That, my fellow KFM posters, is yet another thread. Lastly, with the increasing popularity of MMA, it seems inevitable that the MMA mcdojo will rear its head. That seems like the logical evolution of things.

[GeneChing]

And B.S. is very traditional in the Chinese martial arts. Just take a small glance at our extant literature. You can find authors calling B.S. on TCMA going back centuries. I think the real problem is that the West thinks there shouldn't be B.S. in the martial arts. That's what puts most westerners up B.S. creek without a paddle. What amazes me is that few people see the B.S. in MMA. That's kind of funny. Any industry with that much moolah behind it has their fair share of B.S. Think about it.

There's nothing wrong with B.S. Like cyberbullies and trolls, B.S. is just a fact of life. Now it's exacerbated by modern mediums like web forums. You learn to cope with it. The real problem is that some people get personally offended by B.S. I think that's the ego - that's people saying "there's no B.S. in my life. I'm too good for B.S. My B.S. don't stink." Sure, those dogmatic B.S. followers are bothersome, but calling them names isn't going to help. There are better ways to reduce B.S. When there's too much B.S. some people yell and scream "B.S! B.S!!!" Others get some toilet paper.

[Chief Fox]

Xia, use paragraphs for crying out loud! :mad: :D

[Knifefighter]

CMA might not be the best in the MMA world, but it still offers plenty that MMA doesn't offer. Money isn't one of them, though.
Unless one is selling DVD's of super secret, deadly techniques and conditioning programs.

[Knifefighter]

The facts are that realistic venues have existed before the UFC.
The UFC was the first venue to make all ranges of fighting available for everyone to see.



TMA stylists that want to fight generally gravitate towards other venues (such as San Shou for CMA) then the ones that MMA stylists go for.
And that is the small subset that can actually fight.


Another thing that is important to remember is that the ring isn't the street. There aren't multiple opponents, weapons, and no rules as to what techniques you can or can't use on the streets. TMA is tailored for the streets.

Develop as a martial artist and be wary of the B.S. (If you are educated, you can spot it).
The whole training for the street thing is where all the B.S starts.


The next logical step is how to remove the B.S.
Get rid of the training for the street B.S.

However, let's leave room for the possiblity that "training for the street" is actually not B.S.
Describe how one would train that in his real kung fu training.

[Yao Sing]

However, let's leave room for the possiblity that "training for the street" is actually not B.S.
Describe how one would train that in his real kung fu training.

I'll probably regret getting involved in this but I've made this analogy in the past.

I carry a firearm (not ALL the time) and my practice is limited to range practice shooting targets. The goal is to hit where I'm aiming.

Now, I'm fairly confidant if needed I could shoot someone. But by MMA standards that's not enough. Apparently I have to practice 'live' and actually shoot someone to 'know' I can do it (and you still never know for sure because each situation is different).

That's pretty much the same as saying if you don't gouge eyes and break arms in practice you can't do it in a real fight. The answer is that to train dangereous techniques you train all around the actual move and train attributes needed to successfully execute the move in a live situation.

Others have said basically the same thing (only worded much better) and it still doesn't satisfy the MMA purists. My first Kenpo teacher used to practice eye pokes by light sparring with us and tapping our eyebrows with his fingers. Yep, probably a bit of a kook. So could he use it in a fight? Don't know but I'm sure the practice increased his chances of success.

So, with the gun analogy maybe CMA is like range shooting and MMA is paintball. Paintball is more 'live' but without the exactness of a real firefight, just a closer approximation. And the firing range gives you real hands-on experience with the actual gun but in a safer environment.

Something like that.

[The Xia]

Xia, use paragraphs for crying out loud! :mad: :D
Thanks for the tip Chief. I'll keep that in mind for next time. How'd you like the content?

The UFC was the first venue to make all ranges of fighting available for everyone to see.
All ranges of fighting? Not even close. You forgot multiple opponants, weapons (both improvised and non-improvised), and don't forget that many techniques aren't allowed.

And that is the small subset that can actually fight.
People do TMA for many reasons. Some do it for health, fun, etc. However, those that take it seriously get all that and learn how to fight. So serious practitioners learn how to fight. Period.

The whole training for the street thing is where all the B.S starts.

Get rid of the training for the street B.S.

However, let's leave room for the possiblity that "training for the street" is actually not B.S.
Describe how one would train that in his real kung fu training.
Techniques are like bullets and the tools to apply them are like guns. You can have all the high caliber rounds you want but if you don't have a gun that can shoot them then they're useless when you need them. Another words, in order to be able to use something like the aforementioned panther fist, you have to understand the technique and undergo proper conditioning and drilling.

[Knifefighter]

All ranges of fighting? Not even close. You forgot multiple opponants, weapons (both improvised and non-improvised), and don't forget that many techniques aren't allowed. In the first three UFC's all technqiues except for eye gouging and biting were allowed, although eye gouges still happened.

Ranges = outside striking range; inside clinch/striking/takedown range; groundfighting range.
Weapons and multiple opponents are not ranges.

As far as multiple opponents and weapons, groups like the Dog Brothers have taken the MMA model and added to it to include these things... what they are doing is pretty much still MMA.


Some do it for health, fun, etc. However, those that take it seriously get all that and learn how to fight. So serious practitioners learn how to fight. Period.
Not sure what you mean by "serious".



Another words, in order to be able to use something like the aforementioned panther fist, you have to understand the technique and undergo proper conditioning and drilling.
... and full contact sparring.

[The Xia]

And B.S. is very traditional in the Chinese martial arts. Just take a small glance at our extant literature. You can find authors calling B.S. on TCMA going back centuries. I think the real problem is that the West thinks there shouldn't be B.S. in the martial arts. That's what puts most westerners up B.S. creek without a paddle. What amazes me is that few people see the B.S. in MMA. That's kind of funny. Any industry with that much moolah behind it has their fair share of B.S. Think about it.

There's nothing wrong with B.S. Like cyberbullies and trolls, B.S. is just a fact of life. Now it's exacerbated by modern mediums like web forums. You learn to cope with it. The real problem is that some people get personally offended by B.S. I think that's the ego - that's people saying "there's no B.S. in my life. I'm too good for B.S. My B.S. don't stink." Sure, those dogmatic B.S. followers are bothersome, but calling them names isn't going to help. There are better ways to reduce B.S. When there's too much B.S. some people yell and scream "B.S! B.S!!!" Others get some toilet paper.
Of course B.S. accompanying martial arts is nothing new. A researcher like you would know this better then most. Then you also may know that back in old China the B.S.ers had to watch themselves more so the number is reduced. It also makes you think that the B.S.ers back then were probably more clever then they are today since they were taking a bigger risk. However, who remembers those B.S.ers? Can anyone even name one? Wong Fei Hung, Sun Lu Tang, Wang Lang, Dong Hai Chuan, etc are all remembered. Who remembers the B.S.ers? They've faded into obscurity. The ones of today will likely do the same. However, I still believe that there is probably more B.S. today then in the past due to the violence that occured back then.
I wouldn't call the B.S. traditional martial arts. Martial means pertaining to war (or we can take it to mean combat in general in this case). So martial arts are arts of combat (in our case both armed and unarmed). Traditional means that they aren't anything new. So B.S., being that it isn't a combat art, cannot be called a martial art. I guess you can call it a con art though. Or if you want to turn it into a euphemism you can call it an art of deception. You like that one Gene? :D

So if you want less of a chance of offending anyone, you can call the next B.S.er you see a true master in the arts of deception. It almost sounds like a ninja! :p

[The Xia]

In the first three UFC's all technqiues except for eye gouging and biting were allowed, although eye gouges still happened.

Ranges = outside striking range; inside clinch/striking/takedown range; groundfighting range.
Weapons and multiple opponents are not ranges.

As far as multiple opponents and weapons, groups like the Dog Brothers have taken the MMA model and added to it to include these things... what they are doing is pretty much still MMA.
I guess it depends on what you define as a range of fighting. It doesn't really matter though, the UFC isn't the first realistic venue the world has ever seen. Check out the full-contact, bare knuckle tournaments that Chan Sau Cheung's fighters competed in. Not to mention the real fighting that happened on the streets throughout MA history. As far as I know about the Dog Brothers events, I thought they did FMA, not MMA.




Not sure what you mean by "serious".
Someone that takes it seriously and wants to really learn his/her chosen martial art(s). Not someone who is only interested in getting a bit or a workout or having something to do on Friday nights, etc.





... and full contact sparring.
I don't deny the usefulness of full-contact sparring.

[Knifefighter]

Check out the full-contact, bare knuckle tournaments that Chan Sau Cheung's fighters competed in.
I'm pretty sure those tourneys didn't have ground fighting.

BTW,
What is your training background and where do you get your information on CMA?

[hung-le]

There's nothing wrong with B.S. Like cyberbullies and trolls, B.S. is just a fact of life. Now it's exacerbated by modern mediums like web forums. You learn to cope with it. .


You learn to cope with it?...Nothing wrong with cyberbullies and trolls?

Your acting like there is free speech on the internet…… If I were your boss you would have been laterally moved long ago….

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this web site is designed to promote the magazine you work for…

A magazine the promotes (mainly…traditional Chinese martial arts)

Have I got that right?

How is letting a group that doesn’t represent anything that your magazine does, except maybe sport fighting…. take over and highjack the main forum….

These guys haven’t come on and posted once or twice…or even ten times....there posts are up in the thousands!

It’s the same crap over and over and over on this forum for about two years now…

Hence…………….” MODERATION”………….



I’m talking economics; I’m talking Business 101…who’s more likely to buy your magazine? Keep you employed…and keep food on your table…..A guy who comes here and talks TMA or a guy who comes here just to shag the guy who talks TMA

The answer is obvious…

Who's your Boss? I'm wondering if he feels that same as you? (in reference too how you promote your magizine on the internet?)


To whomever else is reading this…

I’m not shagging sport fighting nor am I advocating no one should talk about it. What I am saying is … when you got guys with thousands of posts (generated from multiple years of coming here) doing nothing but crapping on what this magazine promotes…the course of action should have been obvious years ago......there are other websites designed to talk about sport fighting….

[Ray Pina]

The truth of the matter is MMA doesn't care about CMA.... no how many times I've heard the word "kung fu" while training at Renzo Gracies the past 5 months? .... ZERO times!

The gym hosts world-class fighters who are winning at the highest level of competition (Master Renzo, George St. Pierre, etc., etc). Do you honestly think anyone of them care about snake or monkey kung fu?

If anything it is the other way, kung fu guys explaining how they'd destroy these world class fighters if only they could get their hands on the outside of the ring.

Everyone involved -- the MMA stylist, the CMA person writing it and the CMA guy reading it -- know it isn't true. They know the person has never fully fought and wouldn't... never mind against a very skilled and experienced pro fighter.

I don't think this is news. I just think it's an unwelcomed reality.

Accept it or change the reality by changing the way you train and then go do something.

[hung-le]

Ray….. I totally agree with you (fighting is fighting and where you train, guys are learning to fight.) Style is not the issue…we all know this….

What I’m talking about is akin to Ford Motor Company setting up a web site that promotes “Ford Racing.”

Along come a group of guys who set up camp (I.e. post everyday …for years) do nothing but shag Ford products and promote GM Racing.

How long do you think that would last?

If anything its about business…(who’s paying for this web site?)

[Knifefighter]

Your acting like there is free speech on the internet…… If I were your boss you would have been laterally moved long ago….

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this web site is designed to promote the magazine you work for…
Many websites are set up so that they benefit based on the number of hits they recieve. If this site is set up this way, controversy is a great thing and those of us who stir the pot are potentially very beneficial. If this site is not set up this way, it should be.

[Knifefighter]

How long do you think that would last?
If anything its about business…(who’s paying for this web site?)
Hopefully, the advertisers are at least subsidizing the site. They are most concerned about how many people are visiting, how many hits the site receives and, ultimately, how many people are reading their ads and buying their products and services.

Hmmm... maybe the advertising sales guys should look into having MMA advertising here. They already do it in the magazine.

[Knifefighter]

The truth of the matter is MMA doesn't care about CMA.... no how many times I've heard the word "kung fu" while training at Renzo Gracies the past 5 months? .... ZERO times!
The gym hosts world-class fighters who are winning at the highest level of competition (Master Renzo, George St. Pierre, etc., etc). Do you honestly think anyone of them care about snake or monkey kung fu?
If anything it is the other way, kung fu guys explaining how they'd destroy these world class fighters if only they could get their hands on the outside of the ring.
Exactly...
I often check out other MA sessions without ever mentioning that I train. Without exception, the TMA guys ALWAYS relate what they are doing to MMA (usually talking about how what they do is much more realistic than what those UFC guys do)... I never initiate this conversation but they always begin it.

[Ray Pina]

Now, I'm fairly confidant if needed I could shoot someone. But by MMA standards that's not enough. Apparently I have to practice 'live' and actually shoot someone to 'know' I can do it (and you still never know for sure because each situation is different).


You are absolutely right!

Pulling off a "kung fu" move against a willing classmate is similiar to shooting a target at leisure.

Fighting a skilled fighter who is fighting back is like being in a shoot out... their are consequences and pressure.

These are different scenarios. Which is why the weekend skeet shooter is often a fat slob and a Navy Seal is a well conditioned warrior. This is also why your average CMA player is soft and lacks the inner agression needed to win in a hand to hand confrontation while a fighter loves it.

Again, this is no secret.

[Ray Pina]

Ray….. I totally agree with you (fighting is fighting and where you train, guys are learning to fight.) Style is not the issue…we all know this….

What I’m talking about is akin to Ford Motor Company setting up a web site that promotes “Ford Racing.”

Along come a group of guys who set up camp (I.e. post everyday …for years) do nothing but shag Ford products and promote GM Racing.

How long do you think that would last?

If anything its about business…(who’s paying for this web site?)

If Ford Motor Company had cars and drivers that were out there driving well on a regular basis they wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves against outside attacks. They would know they're involved in a very competitve endever and people will win and people will lose and people will talk but they're doing it the best they can. Win and lose.

This is different than setting up a martial art website devoted to a style that, let's be honest, hasn't proven effective in creating martial artists... people who can do form: yes! ... people who can do esoteric exercise: yes!. But people who can compete in hand-to-hand combat with their contemporary counterparts .... no way!

The problem is this group feeds itself the belief that they are doing something ancient and they must keep it that way. The fact of the matter is, these people are not training like warriors of old China. They are training like opera players of old China and have similiar skills and folklore. This is not martial arts.

It's up to the members here whether or not they are going to fix their engine, get in and drive fast and dangerously. They are stating to be racing car drivers.... I want to see cars... I want to see high speed laps.... the occasional crash. Evidence that what is being said is.

I haven't seen it here from a CMA standpoint. Have you?

[Ray Pina]

Exactly...
I often check out other MA sessions without ever mentioning that I train. Without exception, the TMA guys ALWAYS relate what they are doing to MMA (usually talking about how what they do is much more realistic than what those UFC guys do)... I never initiate this conversation but they always begin it.

Oh I know:rolleyes: I've been involved in the CMA world, the NYC Chinatown thing, for some time now. This eventually drove me out.

Not only were they better than everyone else... not only was MMA stupid sport or fixed... but when I went out to try to compare I was then told I was dumb, low level, shouldn't go represent, etc., etc., etc..... of course none of these people would compare with me.

Truth me told, I was low level. And truth further be told, compare me to a pro MMA fighter I still am. Those guys bring a level of war that you have to be in it everyday -- eat, sleep and **** your training --- to be at that level.

Just until recently (had two cysts removed) I was training very near that level and realised, "I'm getting pretty good but still get submitted.... can still get my face broken."

I realised that no matter how good I get there's always someone younger, stronger, hungrier.... it will always be that way. So know I have found solace in just training for training's sake and the by product is I have a six pack for the first time in my life. I know how to eat now. I know about my body. And I can **** up a Puerto Rican if he gives me hell in the line up when I paddle out in 3 weeks.

That's it. Seeing things as they are and knowing one's place.

[GeneChing]

The Xia: It's hard to say if there's more B.S. today, but my inclination is to agree with you. There's certainly more noise, and less challenge matches, both would seem to foster B.S. But at the same time, we don't have traveling jianghu like the daze of old, and many of them were clearly full of B.S. Anyway, you've been on this forum long enough to know my soft spot for ninjettes. ;)

hung-le: Our focus at the magazine is CMA, but it would be a grievous error for us to ignore the MMA phenomena. In all honesty, that's where the most money is in the martial arts now, not in terms of selling product (although many of the other mags have gone very deeply into MMA to increase their newsstand sales). The real money in MMA is promotion as entertainment. More people pay to see it than do it. Unfortunately that's not our business or I'd be driving a new car.

That being said, there's no way I'm going to ban people for talking up MMA. That's just absurd. The MMA vs. CMA debate is very relevant to KungFuMagazine and Kung Fu Tai Chi. The only real problem is that most of the people debating are nitwits and haven't advanced the argument very much beyond more derogatory remarks, which is really too bad because there's a lot more intelligent discussion that could be made.

I'm sorry that you feel cyberbullied by the MMA crowd, but remember, it takes two to tango, especially in a flame war. If it really bothers you, try implementing the ignore function.

[Yao Sing]

The only real problem is that most of the people debating are nitwits and haven't advanced the argument very much beyond more derogatory remarks, which is really too bad because there's a lot more intelligent discussion that could be made.

My sentiments exactly. We need more meat and potatoes and less insults in these discussions.

[Knifefighter]

My sentiments exactly. We need more meat and potatoes and less insults in these discussions.
People don't want that... just look at the non-responses to my thread about multiple opponents.

Either that, or they aren't training the way they claim to train.

[hung-le]

The Xia: It's hard to say if there's more B.S. today, but my inclination is to agree with you. There's certainly more noise, and less challenge matches, both would seem to foster B.S. But at the same time, we don't have traveling jianghu like the daze of old, and many of them were clearly full of B.S. Anyway, you've been on this forum long enough to know my soft spot for ninjettes. ;)

hung-le: Our focus at the magazine is CMA, but it would be a grievous error for us to ignore the MMA phenomena. In all honesty, that's where the most money is in the martial arts now, not in terms of selling product


Loved the Meaningless fluff of a response


One more time.......Who do you work for? PRIDE, UFC or Kungfu Magizine?


I was going to comment on your response but as someone with only 130 posts with little time invested here .....

why bother...


Gene..."marketing" might what to look into it...

[Ray Pina]

We need more meat and potatoes and less insults in these discussions.

Discussions will never settle this. This conversation changes when someone from X-family fist, Y-Pai or Z-animal style goes out and starts doing something.

Talk in the kwoon or online, what someone has done in the past or plans to do in the future is irrelevant.... how does CMA compare right now? We all know the answer to that, there's no need for discussion.

What all of you CMA folks should be discussing as a whole, or privately amongst your own clans is what are you going to do to get better?

This is a discussion I always have with myself. I learn what I need to learn. Now me and my students have a mix of E-Chuan stand up and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu ground fighting. I did what I had to do to get what I needed to stay relevant. It works and keeps getting better. We are open to compare and learn and continue to grow.

Anyone who is a teacher and not instilling this principle into their students is doing them a diservice. Without that mind set one can not be a martial artists.

[GeneChing]

Ha! Bring it on, hung-le.

I wish we worked for Pride & UFC. We could use the advertising $. If you really want to support Kung Fu Tai Chi, subscribe (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html). If you want to keep trolling me, bring it on, xiaoren. :p

[Ray Pina]

Loved the Meaningless fluff of a response



What do you want him to do, tickle your balls and tell you everything is fine?

This topic is actually starting to annoy me because it represents the thing that bothers me the most: people living in a fog-like state, seemingly purposely oblivious to the fact that their actions and choices create their outcomes.

Let's cut the $hit!

There's a reason a person joins a school that wears gold silk uniforms and swings fake swords instead of one that has a cage built into it and everyone is strong, fit and healthy.......

There's a reason why people choose to go to a point sparring tournament instead of going to a Throwdown....

Do you know how rediculous it is to hear people complaining about MMA having too many rules when CMA tournaments are a ****ing joke! You can't even strike the front of the face? You can't capture kicks and slam someone. You can't even pull off a combo without the action stopping. Give me a ****ing break .... the last place these people want to find themselves is in a cage with one of Matt Serra's students.

Everyone here knows this. Now, either accept it or change it. But don't insult people who have extensive experience in both traditional Japanese, Chinese and modern hybrid styles with nonsense like Ralph Macheo's character is going to destroy Chuck Lidell with an eye gauge when he can barely survive point sparring.

[Knifefighter]

Gene..."marketing" might what to look into it...
Gene- care to comment on the "hits" concept?

[lkfmdc]

What do you want him to do, tickle your balls and tell you everything is fine?


Easily Ray's best post of all time, and a candidate for top post ever here... someone must make this a sig line!

[lkfmdc]

Who do you work for? PRIDE, UFC or Kungfu Magizine?




Pride MMA event
http://ftpnews.homei.net.ua/uploads_old/1145736069_Pride%20FC%2031%20cd1%20of%202%20Frame5 8065.jpg
notice audience

your typical Chinese martial arts tournament
http://www.stlukeparish.org/stluke/images/extracurricular/Gym.jpg

[hung-le]

Ha! Bring it on, hung-le.

I wish we worked for Pride & UFC. We could use the advertising $. If you really want to support Kung Fu Tai Chi, subscribe (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html). If you want to keep trolling me, bring it on, xiaoren. :p

Lol……lol…..Xiaoren?…lol…lol…..

Resorting to name calling and from the moderator of all people…Nice…I see where the problem stems from…..


Xiaochou……did I hit a nerve? Try a little fanxing next time…….

[SifuAbel]

Ta ma de!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this one is my favorite madarin insult:

Wo xi wang ni man man si, dan kuai dian xia di yu!

[Yao Sing]

Huh huh, you said wang.

[GeneChing]

And everything is fine. But no tickling. That's just not my style. :p hung-le, if you think there's a problem with this forum, why do you stay? I'm certainly not keeping you here. Especially with no tickling. But if you wish to keep trolling me, please do. I'm at your service. :)

Knifefighter, I'd love to comment on that, but I'm not clear on the comment. ""marketing" might what to look into it..."?? I'm going to assume that 'what' means 'want' and take it from there. First of all, CMA isn't really big enough to support us having a marketing department. We're hoping that it grows to be so someday. To get more on topic, surely a lot of people are put off by the trolling here. Fortunately, our website doesn't rely solely upon the forum traffic. Our moderators do the best they can to keep things maintained, as do we administrators, but frankly, trolls are like weeds. Most eventually exhaust themselves and move on, but new ones will replace them. I suppose you could argue that we should spend more time tending the garden here, and I'll concede that might make our magazine look better if we only had supporters and subscribers on the forum, but it wouldn't be much of a forum then, would it? We once discussed only offering the forum to subscribers, but I think that would kill the golden goose, frankly. If we can't take a little negative criticism, even from web trolls, that doesn't speak very loudly about our character.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter, I'd love to comment on that, but I'm not clear on the comment. ""marketing" might what to look into it..."?? .
That was someone elses comment. I was assuming you already were doing marketing and had revenue coming into the website based on traffic here.

[GeneChing]

Most of the income that funds this forum comes from www.MartialArtsMart.com (http://www.MartialArtsMart.com), of course. We do have some outside advertisers, which you'll see under our KungFuMagazine.com navigational bar, but those don't appear on the forum and they are inexpensive (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/advertise.php), so they don't really account for that much of our budget (although every little bit helps). Our topmost banner we sell at about $100+ a day and at that price, the only takers have been major film and game promoters for the debut week of their product. That being said, we don't really market website advertising. It markets itself. That's the thing about the web - viral marketing is the most powerful means for web marketing.

[unkokusai]

You got to be kidding… you are one of the biggest advocates of CMA shagging here. With over 1500 post to your name and about 90% of it anti CMA,.

That is a lie.

[Shaolin Wookie]

That is a lie.:D

[unkokusai]

That is a lie.:D

Shaolin Wookie. That is an idiot.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This is a c0ck: <=====8

[BlueTravesty]

I like the multiple perspectives on this board myself.

Granted it would be nice to see less of the "CMA people don't know how to AAAARGH!!! Fight because they don't GRRRRRRRRR train MMA. ARGH REALITY GRR ARRGH DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWN CHOKEOUT RAAWWR!!" stuff on here, but at the same time, this would be quite a boring forum if all we talked about was whose made-up lineage/history is more/less valid than the other made up lineage/history.