Bruce Lee: One of a kind martial artists

[rogue]

Bruce is the man!!!

Any guy that can invent a totally new and unique martial art, become the master of Wing Chun and kali, invent cross training, invent MMA, be able to defeat 3 of the most feared fighters ever (Norris, Wallace and Lewis) in the ring, turn Joe Lewis into a champion, credited by everyone including a certain Brazilian family as being the ultimate most feared fighter, become a master thespian and renowned philosopher gets my respect.

Props to you BL, where ever you are!:)







The Real Original Lucky Louie

[Fuzzly]

Bruce Lee, like William Shakespeare and Albert Einstein, never existed.

[Ray Pina]

I love Bruce Lee movies, I'm a fan.

However, I wouldn't call him a "Master" of Wing Chun (I believe he studied less than 5 years) or Kali. Also, are you sure he faces Chuck Norris in the ring? I don't believe Bruce Lee ever fought in a sanctioned event.

My feelings on Bruce Lee is that he helped popularize MA in the west, and for that I'm thankful. But Bruce Lee was just the first Van ****, the first Seagal the west seen. I wouldn't put any of them in the top 5 or 10... and if I really took the time, studied tape and footage, not even the top 50. No way.

Pretty much you have the present and most recent past UFC champions. Present and recently past Pride Champions... all of them light years ahead in unarmed combat.

Gene LeBell and folks like him.

Hell, a whole new generation of MMA stylists, including myself, I think would school Bruce Lee. I've seen actual footage of him sparring in tournaments (with lots of gear)...looked like black belt level karete sparring.

No disrespect to the man. I just wouldn't label Stalone a great military warrior or boxer just because he portrayed one on screen. John Wayne could ride horses and own and shoot guns.... he's not getting on the back of a bull in Madison Square Garden.

Don't believe the hype.

[kwaichang]

Man you are dillusional, You would have not even touched Bruce, remember the movies are make believe and NOT REAL, also as far as the current MMA Fighters are concerned , give, anyone the best anabolic steroids and a dose of hard headedness and you can fight in those things. KC

[rogue]

No one ever schooled Bruce. He was a champion of many roof top fights, he created one of the greatest ring champions that will ever walk the earth, he fought, defeated and made students of all the greatest legendary fighters. If Bruce was alive today he would have progressed way past what the so called "ultimate" fighters are doing and still be making students of them. Not a master of Kali? Then how come all of the leading Kali men are students of Bruce. All of them. And all the current Wing Chun masters know who was the real deal when it came to that art, and it was Bruce Lee.

When it comes to Bruce Lee, there just isn't any hype.



The Real Original Lucky Louie

[hjt]

theres no doubt that bruce lee would get beaten today by an MMA, but definitely not by ray (please stop being full of yourself) bruce lee would get beaten due to age factor and with the help special vitamins. then again if he was still alive he would continue training as he did and he was known to be a cardio freak and trained for hours.

he was the forefather of MMA, he started like most fighters started with traditional chinese martial arts, but realized that you need more than just one style to be well rounded, he began to study western boxing, judo, catch wrestling, TKD, jujitsu, and silat. this sounds familiar, wait this is the foundation for MMA.

alot of fighters have given credit to bruce lee for getting them into martial arts. one thats funny alot of "so-called" martial artist come down on CMA because they say it isnt effective, yet they came from a CMA background, isnt martial arts the proccess of learning, evolving and becoming better?

here is bruce lee's on his challenge match against wong jack man.

"Bruce Lee's description of the fight was that Wong Jack Man challenged him to a duel over his decision to teach non-Chinese students. Bruce Lee accepted the challenge. Many who witnessed the fight believed Lee had won the duel, however Wong disputes this. Lee later took the view that the fight took "too long" because traditional martial arts techniques were too rigid and formalistic to be practical in scenarios of chaotic street fighting. Perhaps as a result of this fight, he decided to develop a system with an emphasis on practicality, flexibilty, speed, and efficiency."

[SPJ]

some sighted Bruce was talking to Elvis on the strip in vegas.

I said well that probably some other people dressed and impersonated them.

One dressed in yellow as Uma in "kyll bill" and the other dressed in white with some sparkles.

:eek:

[Vash]

For two things . . .

1. This isn't in the JKD section

2. The "BL" is not a reference to bloominglotus

Also, if you recall, The Norris' loss to Bruce Lee is a product of the single greatest feat in special effects history.

[Ray Pina]

I've seen actual fight footage -- not sparring, not movies ... Bruce Lee "fighting" in a karate type tournament.

I'm not thinking about the posters, the flying kicks, the screams... I'm thinking about a smaller, lighter Chinese man with the skills I saw. I feel in my heart I could beat that man that I saw.

I don't care either way. If people want to make more of Bruce Lee that's great.

I would not want to study Kali under someone who claimed Bruce Lee as their only instructor in the art. Who taught Kali to Bruce Lee and for how many years?

If anything, I'd study under Bruce Lee's student, Isontano, who appears to have put more time into that art.

Also, just because you say it's true does not make it true. When and where did Bruce Lee fight in a sanctioned ring event?

And if you seriously believe the kick boxing of the 70s and 80s (I was studying Issin-Ryu at the time and my sensei's son was a pro kick boxer, saw Suger Foot Wallace fight on the same car at the Garden) is at the same level of MMA today there's nothing really to discuss.

Who has Bruce Lee seriously fought (not sparred, taught or played with for publicity) and beat? I know he practically got ran out of NYC by a crew of Southern Mantis folks.

I'm not full of myself ... and I also have a brain and don't get caught up in media and self promotion. Bruce Lee was an actor first and foremost. If he was a fighter, he'd be like a Chuck Lidell.... a fighting champion who makes movies.

Can you please answer the bolded questions of who trained Bruce in Kali and for how long to make him a master in that art... also, when and where did he fight in a sanctioned ring event making him one of the best ring fighters of all time.... and outside of the ring, who of note did he really fight ... and beat?

I'm open to have my mind changed if evidence can be presented.

[mickey]

Serious question,

Didn't Gene LeBell school Bruce Lee? It is not talked about much; yet, people will carol over the match with Wong Jack Man.


mickey

[Ray Pina]

give, anyone the best anabolic steroids and a dose of hard headedness and you can fight in those things. KC

1) Do you really think it's that easy? DO you think if you juiced you would miraculously have the skills, balls and ability to beat Chuck Lidell?

2) What you say is an insult to everyone who trains hard to develop their structure, mechanics and skill.

I used to think that way when I was doing form and studying Hung Gar. Than I thought would would it take for me to fight at that level, even amatuer. It wasn't steroids. It was training harder and more realisticly.

[Ray Pina]

he was the forefather of MMA."
This is a nice thing to say, and perhaps someone who doesn't know how to think, research and find answers for themself (perhaps this describes you, I don't know) would buy that and then repeat it as gospel over the internet and at tea parties.

Have you ever heard of the chariot, the bow-n-arrow... these are two ancient weapons developed in Eygpt a loooong time ago. Guess what? The Romans thought it was a good idea and incorporated it.

I guess you don't even know your own CMA history... how many styles are a mix and match of multiple styles.

Use your brain before you make a general, assanine coment. Also, before you start attacking me personally about a thread that has nothing to do with me... consider if you're willing to get your ass kicked by me. I'm in NYC for 4 more weeks and occasionally you like to jab at me.

We met once at a Throwdown. You've seen my handwork and I'm sure there's no doubt in either of our minds of what the outcome would be like. So why not be nice?

[kwaichang]

Bruce Lee fought in high school in the ring. He fought "street fights" mostly as a thug in Hong Kong I dont think they were sanctioned?? Also some of the baddest dudes do not fight in these so called MMA tourneys. Also the fights of the 70,80 's had different rules but there are those of that time that would have given Liddel and others a good run for their money. I fought during that time and if the MMA were going on at that time I would have done it. Those guys are filled with enhancing "vitamins" and other things that enhance their performance I am sure much like Lance Armstrong but at that level it is hard to detect. To compare the MMA fighters with Kick Boxers of that era is ludicrous apples and oranges. KC

[hjt]

This is a nice thing to say, and perhaps someone who doesn't know how to think, research and find answers for themself (perhaps this describes you, I don't know) would buy that and then repeat it as gospel over the internet and at tea parties.

Have you ever heard of the chariot, the bow-n-arrow... these are two ancient weapons developed in Eygpt a loooong time ago. Guess what? The Romans thought it was a good idea and incorporated it.

I guess you don't even know your own CMA history... how many styles are a mix and match of multiple styles.

Use your brain before you make a general, assanine coment. Also, before you start attacking me personally about a thread that has nothing to do with me... consider if you're willing to get your ass kicked by me. I'm in NYC for 4 more weeks and occasionally you like to jab at me.

We met once at a Throwdown. You've seen my handwork and I'm sure there's no doubt in either of our minds of what the outcome would be like. So why not be nice?

ray

throwdown? i m actually getting pretty annoyed with you calling me and others out when they criticise or challenge you on the forum. its show your intelligence level.

i seen your hand work and i have nothing to say regarding that, but if you wish to continue this matter please PM me, because i dont wish to continue this discussion in this thread nor forum.

hjt

[hjt]

Serious question,

Didn't Gene LeBell school Bruce Lee? It is not talked about much; yet, people will carol over the match with Wong Jack Man.


mickey

he did schooled him, but after that bruce started training judo under gene. thats what has been written

[laugarkuen]

Use your brain before you make a general, assanine coment. Also, before you start attacking me personally about a thread that has nothing to do with me... consider if you're willing to get your ass kicked by me. I'm in NYC for 4 more weeks and occasionally you like to jab at me.

We met once at a Throwdown. You've seen my handwork and I'm sure there's no doubt in either of our minds of what the outcome would be like. So why not be nice?

That's a wondrously thuggish thing to say and oh so mature. Disagree with me and I'll pound you.

Just cause you hit someone does not make you right or deserving respect. That last post makes you sound like a bully.

Michael

[Ray Pina]

To compare the MMA fighters with Kick Boxers of that era is ludicrous apples and oranges. KC

I agree with you.

I'm not saying Bruce Lee was a kook. I'm saying he was a small, light man. A ripped man at 130lbs. still aint going to compare with a seasoned fighter of 225lbs... which there were plenty of in his day.

This isn't an attack on Bruce Lee. Its an attack on people who can't let go of what they want to believe and look at the reality of the matter.... perhaps, because once they do that it may change the way they have to look at the way they've been looking at things.

I'm not talking about comparing then vs now. That's no question. But to me, equally of no question is comparing Bruce to others back then.

What ring fights did he fight in high school? Any records of that, or does just saying that help you. Street fights? What healthy young boy/man hasn't been in one.

Even if he beat everyone he fought in Hong Kong... who where they? Do you really think he was able to beat the Russian, UK, US heavy weight boxing champions of the time?

Do you think if he could, with his ego, he wouldn't have... and promoted the hell out of it?

[rogue]

And if you seriously believe the kick boxing of the 70s and 80s (I was studying Issin-Ryu at the time and my sensei's son was a pro kick boxer, saw Suger Foot Wallace fight on the same car at the Garden) is at the same level of MMA today there's nothing really to discuss.

You have to look back to the fights of the 60's and 70's where people were being maimed and killed all of the time. Those men were fighting at a much higher level than most of those who fight now. I think one reason for the fighters of Bruce's time being more deadly was that they were closer to the original training methods, now things are watered down. Have you ever heard of Count Dante? He was the one man that might have defeated Bruce Lee, but no matter what the winner of that fight would have been crippled. Those men were serious about fighting as the Dojo Wars of the 60's and early 70's proved.


And thank goodness the Gracie family came up with a very safe martial art that even children can do safely. Rorian single handedly saved the martial arts from itself.

The Real Original Lucky Louie

[kwaichang]

He just fought one ring fight to my knowledge a no body just another boxer. At that time people who fought on the street did not end it with a gun as they do now. It was mano a mano. You continually want records or something all I have is the 1st hand story of an eye witness who saw Bruce hit a man with a 1 inch punch the man was a foot ball player who wighed 225. he knocked the man six feet into a pool and bruised the mans heart. the man was hospitalized for a day or so. CAN YOU OR LIDDELL DO THAT ? I would say no. also this was through a phone book approx 2 inches thick. It may look like a trick until you received the impact. Physics, velocity X mass = one he// of a punch. If you want to do grappling given Bruce may have been beaten if you could get a hold of him and to compare a 225 seasoned fighter to a 135 pound fighter is wrong. again the mass overcomes the velosity especially when there is no room to move.
Also steroids play a major role in the MMA matches of today , Let me think die at 45 from cancer or live to 85 practising a CMA I wll do the CMA also the MMA fighter is also a ring fighter as well so they have limitations as well KC

[lkfmdc]

You have to look back to the fights of the 60's and 70's where people were being maimed and killed all of the time.



it's true! I was killed twice, maybe three times, back in those days

[BruceSteveRoy]

but i never knew that UFC fighters juice. I have seen a lot of people that do and i cant think of any UFCers that have the tell tale signs. (the excess of cord like veins in the amrs, bacne, premature baldness etc.) i don't know anything about pride or any of the other MMA organizations or their fighters but if anyone would care to point out some cases in point i am curious. i am not saying they don't mind you. i don't know one way or another but i would be curious to look a little more critically at who is supposedly injecting steroids.

[hjt]

actually some fighters have tested positive for steroids, randleman, bonner, beltford, and there was a documentary on tv about steroid use and this unknown fighter took steroids. but just because a small factor of fighters do use steroids doesnt mean that all do.

as for 60's and 70's full contacting fighting, i read an interview with chuck norris, about how he was in a tournament and a riot broke him, superfoot, joe lewis and i think the man himself Benny Urquidez got into a brawl with the audience.

[Ray Pina]

Like I said, I was involved in Issin-ryu in 1978. Started comepting shortly there after. Was at all the Don Negle tournaments, all those legend's tournaments. It was all point sparring with some light face contact allowed for men adults.

As for these murderous school wars.... when and where? Something like that would be in the paper, right?

But to keep it simple, just Bruce Lee's involvement?

As for one-inch punch... I've learned to produce KO power from touching... zero inches. If you'de like proof I can get video for you.

However, I have seen even more incredible things on video with my own eyes (never mind from first hand accounts). Just a few weeks ago we had an "old school" master who could throw his students around from a distance get his a$$ beat embarrasingly easily by a no-name, smaller, practioner.

I'm not going to argue this point anymore. Bruce Lee is the best martial artists of all time.... even though he's never competed against professional fighters of his same weight (never mind bigger) and we have no proof of him beating anyone remotely famous in a real fight. What we do have is one account of one fight in which both sides claim victory but somehow afterwards Bruce Lee was injured.

Funny, this one fight (which he may have lost) was given so much lip service by him... you'd think you'd hear about others if there were some, especially against well knowns. But maybe that's just me.

I'm also electing Stalone as the greatest military war hereo this nation's ever had... even though he dodged the draft. I saw him shoot a viet cong out of an elevated fox hole with an arrow... he single handely attacked a prison camp, endured electric shock torture, etc.

Pat Tilman, an American who gave up millions to go fight and die for our country. No, he couldn't compete with that. Just like men who aren't rich, train night and day, through injury, go fight regularly and have the results posted for the world to see.... they can't compete with Bruce Lee's 1-inch punch. No way.

[Knifefighter]

he was the forefather of MMA, he started like most fighters started with traditional chinese martial arts, but realized that you need more than just one style to be well rounded, he began to study western boxing, judo, catch wrestling, TKD, jujitsu, and silat. this sounds familiar, wait this is the foundation for MMA.
Carlos and Helio Gracie were the forefathers of MMA. They were fighting MMA before Bruce was born.

BTW, Bruce never studied Silat and his FMA was just a few sessions with Dan.

[Knifefighter]

Also the fights of the 70,80 's had different rules but there are those of that time that would have given Liddel and others a good run for their money. I fought during that time and if the MMA were going on at that time I would have done it. Those guys are filled with enhancing "vitamins" and other things that enhance their performance I am sure much like Lance Armstrong but at that level it is hard to detect. To compare the MMA fighters with Kick Boxers of that era is ludicrous apples and oranges. KC
I am also an old f@rt who fought during that time and I believe the fighters of today are light years ahead of those during those days- especially if you are talking all ranges, including the ground.

[hjt]

Carlos and Helio Gracie were the forefathers of MMA. They were fighting MMA before Bruce was born.

BTW, Bruce never studied Silat.

if its true, i stand corrected, but at the same time they didnt study striking until the ufc days, even then their striking wasnt up to par, i know they were trying to show their style BJJ, and the only gracie that was well rounded was rickson during that time.

actually wikipedia has him as studying silat, i may be wrong since wikipedia is known to be incorrect.

anyway, bruce still thought outside the box during his time, and believed that training various style would make him a complete and effective fighter.

[rogue]

it's true! I was killed twice, maybe three times, back in those days

I've finally gotten to the third video in your series (I had to watch Battlestar Galactica and Firefly first) and I noticed that you were using the old hidden techniques and giving the secret hand signals from the Dojo War days. ;)


I am also an old f@rt who fought during that time and I believe the fighters of today are light years ahead of those during those days- especially if you are talking all ranges, including the ground.

Maybe on the West Coast but east of the Mississippi things were different, more deadly. I've heard that Bruce Lee kept a lid on things over your way.

[Knifefighter]

if its true, i stand corrected, but at the same time they didnt study striking until the ufc days, even then their striking wasnt up to par, i know they were trying to show their style BJJ, and the only gracie that was well rounded was rickson during that time.
They were never great strikers... although they did practice it to some degree.

There was a rivalry with the Lutra Livre guys (who were more striking oriented) in Brazil for quite some time before the first UFC in the States. There were many matches between the Gracie camp and the Lutra Livre fighters before the UFC.


actually wikipedia has him as studying silat, i may be wrong since wikipedia is known to be incorrect.
Nobody in his circle had been introduced to Silat while he was still alive. Dan picked it up several years after Bruce's death.



anyway, bruce still thought outside the box during his time, and believed that training various style would make him a complete and effective fighter.
Very true... although his grappling training was very limited.

His grappling was probably about as good as the Gracie's striking.

[kwaichang]

In high school there was a guy who wrestled at 132 pounds he often beat others at 180 pounds and above. He was built alot like Bruce Lee. in arm wrestling he was undefeated by anyone and much heavier opponents. You guys try to compare a 200 # MMA that probably juices against a guy who weighed 132#at his max and just trained very hard. That is rediculous. No one can prove Bruce would have lost, remember he worked very hard and developed phenomenal skill even at his size and look at what he could do. I do not see the same level of skill in any of the people you have compared him to. KC

[Wood Dragon]

Have you ever heard of the chariot, the bow-n-arrow... these are two ancient weapons developed in Eygpt a loooong time ago. Guess what? The Romans thought it was a good idea and incorporated it.


The Roman Army was infantry-centric, from day 1 until well into the 4th Century AD. They never ever used chariots on the battlefield.

To be precise, it was not until the early 4th Century AD that the actual Roman Army formed dedicated cavalry units. Prior to this, most cavalry units were auxilii, formed from allied and client states/tribes.

Chariots were, in fact, obsolete by the early 4th Century BC, as they could not crack phalangite infantry formations.

Military archery is thought to have developed in Mesopotamia, not Egypt.

[rogue]

What about Ben Hur Mr. Smarty Pants?

[BruceSteveRoy]

fine i'll agree that bruce lee was awesome but he was no bruce leroy.

[PangQuan]

i have seen that footage of bruce "sparring" in gear.

i believe that was a sparring demonstration, done with one of his students.

i dont think it was a real match as much as it was in correlation with bruce lee showcasing his new kicking methods.

anyway i know this event, which i believe is the ONLY footage of bruce sparring in pads, was the same event where he showcased his new kicking methods, one inch punch, power kicks, ego, etc...

i dont think i would use that event as a direct show of bruce lees fighting ability, anymore so than i would one of his films. as i dont believe it was him actually "fighting" to his max.

I go up and down with bruce lee.

he was good at what he did, anyone who ever trained with him will tell you that, thats more proof to me than anyone calling him down based on video or hypothosis.

however, he was still just a man, no god or super hero. i dont believe he was "the best", but i do believe he was good.

what he WAS the best at, was world wide promotion of martial arts as a healthy interactive lifestyle.

many of us owe our exposure and eventual studies to people just like bruce lee.


props up to bruce lee, AND all the others out there who have dedicated as much of their lives to the promotion of martial arts.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The man got owned by Gene LeBell, a man who wears a pink gi.


mickey

[lkfmdc]

The man got owned by Gene LeBell, a man who wears a pink gi.


LeBell would own pretty much everyone here, and many others. Even at his age he's still a scary dude

[hung-le]

Greetings,

The man got owned by Gene LeBell, a man who wears a pink gi.


mickey


PWNED!! he did ....indeed!!

Gene Lebell was a bonified bad azz (something all to unclear about Bruce Lee)

Has anyone ever seen Gene Lebell's daughter..Talk about Hot babe!

[Wood Dragon]

What about Ben Hur Mr. Smarty Pants?

Notice the big arena they were racing in?

Called a Hippodrome.

Not a military use.

[rogue]

What the heck are you talking about? They were Romans using horse drawn chariots and there wasn't a hippo or even a pygmy rhino in sight.


LeBell would own pretty much everyone here, and many others. Even at his age he's still a scary dude

So you've seen him with his pink gi top off.





I can't believe I got three pages on this rehashed post from 2001.:D

[Wood Dragon]

What the heck are you talking about? They were Romans using horse drawn chariots and there wasn't a hippo or even a pygmy rhino in sight.


Har har. Very funny.

[iron tiger]

Just my 2 cents...But I think Kato would've kicked Bruce Lee's a**.

And I have several of Kato's fights on vid...can't find nothing similar of Bruce. I do remember what Chuck Norris had to, er, not say as far as his assessment of Bruce's "fighting mastery." Anyone else happen to read that?

Fwiw, though, bit of "inside info": there is a new bio on BL in the works (very early stages) by a Seattle writer.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Who cares if he could fight as well as legends say?

He made kick ass movies. Hell, Jet Li made kick ass movies--and he's a wushu guy. (But he's probably fast enough to whip people his size--that is, five feet tall, 130 lbs.;) ).

Fighting ability does not = good movies. Good movies do not = fighting ability.

I think Tony Jaa has made the 2 best martial arts films in the last twenty years or so, but I still wouldn't rank him as any kind of fighter.

Know of any UFC fighters making legendary films? Not me--they all suck when it comes to film entertainment, because there's no excitement to throwing punches and 'rasslin (unless you splice in the soap opera storylines of the WWF:rolleyes: ). But they can duke it out in the octagon just fine.

What Bruce Lee had was personality. His sponsorship of MA--all MA's--helped make their study more popular and widespread. There's schools in backwater towns all over the country. It's because of people like him than most citizens can get a little Eastern training, even in the dreadful Bible Belt.

And please don't talk about Bruce vs. Lidell. This is purely ridiculous. Even in tournaments and UFC, there's weight classes. Stick a 130 lb. MMA'er vs. lil' Brucie, and I'd bet on Brucie every time.

He had blinding speed and remarkable power (for someone his size).

And as for the issue of juicing....there's plenty of MMA'ers juicing. Not all. But plenty of amateurs---all you have to do is ask....

[iron tiger]

What Bruce Lee had was personality.

And ego. Oh--and ego.

Did I mention ego? Great star quality, though.

Why'd Yip Man & him part ways again? (Oh yeah...ego.)



His sponsorship of MA--all MA's--helped make their study more popular and widespread. There's schools in backwater towns all over the country. It's because of people like him than most citizens can get a little Eastern training, even in the dreadful Bible Belt.

In some opinions, he was the best thing to happen to the MA in decades. And the worst.


Stick a 130 lb. MMA'er vs. lil' Brucie, and I'd bet on Brucie every time.

Depends what rules you're using...But generally speaking, I'd take that bet every time!

:D


He had blinding speed and remarkable power (for someone his size)

He had good speed and decent power. Even for someone his size.

Tung Shen Chang had truly blinding speed & absolutely remarkable-to-the-point-of phenomenal power (as well as superlative technique). Even (in fact, especially) for someone his size.

Bruce wasn't even really in the ball park. Fun watching him leap (off those springboards) across the big screen, though!

[Shaolin Wookie]

From what I've read, it was partly his ego which got him teaching to non-Chinese.

Ego can sometimes be a good thing.:D

[iron tiger]

it was partly his ego which got him teaching to non-Chinese

Wasn't he born in San Francisco?


Ego can sometimes be a good thing

It can. Sometimes.