Let's Be Real

[JDK]

Question.........

I love the Traditional Martial Arts

The discipline, health and self-defense ability are invaluable.

Is there a thread or forum that you know of that discusses WHY no Traditional Masters have been successful in the UFC Competitions??????"

"I mean, I realize the UFC is all-inclusive and most of the winners are Great Grapplers who can Strike...but is there no Traditional Master or Senior Student who can challenge them ???? Are Iron Palm and Iron Body useless against the animal-like aggression in the UFC ???"

Why wont one Traditional Master enter, much less win a UFC Event to give credibility to the Traditional Arts ?????

Please dont give me the TWO cop-out answerS " Well thats not what true martial arts are about...or They dont permit eye gouging or groin strikes, so it not really no holds barred

Come on now guys....with the Ego's that are out there in the Kung-Fu Community
someone would have stepped forward years ago and defended the credibility of Kung-Fu by now....in my opinion.

Comments please...and remember..I LOVE THE TRADITIONAL ARTS:o

JD

[SifuAbel]

Who exactly do you suggest should enter the UFC?

There has to be some kind of interest first, don't you think? Whats in it for them? Not much.

I'm not interested in UFC. Its not that important in the long run. Most people couldn't tell you who Liddelll is. If they do its because he's champion and on TV now. They most likely couldn't tell you anyone elses name. To most its just another horse and pony show. Sure there are the fans that could recite the entire history's roster backwards while playing trumpet on a unicyce but that is a very small minority.

Ross was once a CMAer, ask him if he wants to enter UFC now. Probably not.

Or any number of aging "masters". How about them? You think they need to be on UFC to fill thier schools? Probably not.

[Fuzzly]

Maybe cause the people who have the egos don't have the skill, and the people with the skills necessary to win a UFC event don't have the ego.



Wow, now I want some waffles.

[Ironpig]

Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is still descended of Japanese Jiu Jitsu, and still a traditional system, founded upon traditional concepts and practice.

It only takes one generation to become a 'tradition'.

As a family system, passed down to the sons of the family, Gracie Jiu Jitsu certainly has stepped up to the plate and played across the globe.

Sadly, the word 'traditional' has become synonymous with 'outdated'. Tradition means 'passed down'. I bet that the dictionary says something just like that. Outmoded practice becomes irrelevant.

[Ravenshaw]

*sigh*

Probably the most "real" reason is that our training methods aren't geared towards competitive fighting. That's not an excuse, just an explanation. For those schools that do practice for competitive sparring, there isn't an excuse.

You can try to guess why they don't try till you're blue in the face.

[street_fighter]

Because 99% of CMAers are not anywhere near the skill level of ufc guys. No exageration. Think what you want as to why this is the case (ie, kung fu attracts nerds, cma schools on average don't train right at all etc.).

[Ravenshaw]

Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is still descended of Japanese Jiu Jitsu, and still a traditional system, founded upon traditional concepts and practice.

My understanding of BJJ is that the practice is different from traditional JJ, with more focus on sparring and competition.

If a CMA version of Kano came along, we might be in better competitive shape.

[lkfmdc]

If the UFC had been around in the early to mid 80's I'd probably have been interested in it. But I'd also have to have faced the same problem I had with everything I competed in. For the most part, my teachers didn't support my competition and being in TMA I wasted a lot of valuable time doing stuff that had nothing to do with fighting. That's why I don't waste my students' time with stuff that is not functional and why, if they want to compete, I support them as best I can

[lkfmdc]

If a CMA version of Kano came along, we might be in better competitive shape.

it's called San Da.....

[Royal Dragon]

Because Kung Fu guys go to San Shou, and Kuo Shou

[street_fighter]

Because Kung Fu guys go to San Shou, and Kuo Shou

May be true, but not at high levels, that I know of.

[The Xia]

If you think about it, MMA started as a venue and developed into a style. This style picks pieces of Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco-Roman Wrestling, BJJ, and maybe some Judo every now and then, and puts them into a blender. If you notice, there is really nothing new about those styles. However, the manner in which they are combined and standardized is. You'll also notice that those styles weren't plagued with the vast number of BSers that you see masquerading as JMA (with the exception of Judo) and CMA. It would seem that they lumped the good (and as far as I'm concerned, the real) JMA and CMA guys with the crap and decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So this leads to the question of why don't the good TMA guys step up and show the MMA world that what they have is valuable. I feel the answer is that most stick to the venues associated with their styles. Kung Fu stylists that want to compete will likely enter San Shou. Karateka have their own tournaments. Not to mention, I don't know how large a percentage of good TMA guys care (or even know) what some MMA guys think of them. Most MMA guys probably don't even think about CMA or JMA all that much anyway. I would guess that this whole "MMA vs. TMA" war is mainly an internet thing. After all, have you ever been to a MMA gym where the main topic of discussion is "Kung Fu suxxors!"? Basically, who cares about if Kung Fu stylists enter the UFC or not? Do you practice good, effective martial arts? Do you like your teacher(s)? Do the style(s) suit you? If all of these are a yes, who cares about the negative opinions of some person on an internet forum.

[SifuAbel]

May be true, but not at high levels, that I know of.

WTF? Not at high levels? What, not enough youtube videos for you kids to drool at?

bwahahahahahahahaha

[SifuAbel]

For the most part, my teachers didn't support my competition and being in TMA I wasted a lot of valuable time doing stuff that had nothing to do with fighting.


Its always been funny to me that something like the above is always followed by something like this:


I am a disciple of the late Chan Tai San, a true master of Chinese martial art.

[SifuAbel]

Because 99% of CMAers are not anywhere near the skill level of ufc guys.

99% of MMAers aren't at the skill level of UFC either. NEXT!!!

[lkfmdc]

I'm glad you are so easily amused :rolleyes:

Much of what CTS taught was fantastic, but stuck in TMA mode, he also taught a lot of worthless time wasting stuff.... that's exactly the problem with CMA, good stuff wrapped up in bad stuff, and often people can't tell the diamond from the coal

[SifuAbel]

It must be nice not having to answer to anyone anymore.

Inventing your own system, doing what you feel like, like a vacation. :cool:

So what was the "bad stuff" your teacher wasted your time with?

[lkfmdc]

It must be nice not having to answer to anyone anymore.



I must have missed the fine print that said "study Chinese martial art and you become a slave"?




Inventing your own system, doing what you feel like, like a vacation.



I didn't invent anything. CTS taught San Da, if you want to call it "fighting" that is on you really, he was a military hand-to-hand (san da) instructor. That he taught forms, weapons and other TMA things didn't change that. And that I simply focus on the other aspect is no big deal...

[SifuAbel]

I must have missed the fine print that said "study Chinese martial art and you become a slave"?
I doubt that your teacher felt like he was wasting your time with what you call "fluff". Unless of course he thought you a rice bag at one point too.




I didn't invent anything. CTS taught San Da, if you want to call it "fighting" that is on you really, he was a military hand-to-hand (san da) instructor. That he taught forms, weapons and other TMA things didn't change that. And that I simply focus on the other aspect is no big deal... Again, I doubt he felt they were a waste of time.

[Ravenshaw]

it's called San Da.....

Yeah, it was kind of dense of me to overlook it. But my experience with san shou is that it doesn't always have to do with CMA. My coach is a Cung Le student, so none of the techniques I practice in that class come from CMA. We just spar with the Chinese rules.

[lkfmdc]

someone in your family line probably believed the world was flat at some point, or that the earth was the center of the universe, does that obligate you to hold those views

[JDK]

Because 99% of CMAers are not anywhere near the skill level of ufc guys. No exageration. Think what you want as to why this is the case (ie, kung fu attracts nerds, cma schools on average don't train right at all etc.).

Thank you streetfighter.

It is sad that a 17 year old is the only one brave enough to state the truth.:cool:

I was hoping someone would state the truth...[]bWhen The UFC first started somwtime around 1993 it quickly showed the ineptness of most Traditional MA
when it came to real no-holds-barred fighting.[/b] I thought it would put alot more Karate Schools out of business than it did.

The few TMA fighters that entered the early UFC matches were slaughtered.
I remember watching one particuliar Tai Kwan Do guy get knocked to the ground in about 45 seconds of the first round....the look of surprise and embarrassment on his bloodied face made me sad. Thankfully the Striker fighting him ended it quickly before the poor guy got seriously injured.

A Hsing I "master' also got knocked out in the first minute of the first round.

Soon....the combination of Gracie's dominance and the obvious failure of TMA
put an end to the TMA artists or masters even entering the Event.

Alot has changed as the UFC has progressed...the fighters of today would kill the fighters of the early 1990's.

I say this with sadness, because I really hoped a Gene Chicione, John Allen, Don the Dragon Wilson , or Benny the Jet Uriquees would step up and show that TMA was as effective as Octagon Fighters.

But , like everything else....life evolves and changes.

Its like if we were able to have the 1968 Greenbay Packers play last Years Pittsburg Steelers.....can you imagine the outcome ??????

JDK

[Ravenshaw]

So... you're making the argument that because none enter, any TMAist would lose?

[Shaolinlueb]

If you think about it, MMA started as a venue and developed into a style. This style picks pieces of Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco-Roman Wrestling, BJJ, and maybe some Judo every now and then, and puts them into a blender. If you notice, there is really nothing new about those styles. However, the manner in which they are combined and standardized is. You'll also notice that those styles weren't plagued with the vast number of BSers that you see masquerading as JMA (with the exception of Judo) and CMA. It would seem that they lumped the good (and as far as I'm concerned, the real) JMA and CMA guys with the crap and decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So this leads to the question of why don't the good TMA guys step up and show the MMA world that what they have is valuable. I feel the answer is that most stick to the venues associated with their styles. Kung Fu stylists that want to compete will likely enter San Shou. Karateka have their own tournaments. Not to mention, I don't know how large a percentage of good TMA guys care (or even know) what some MMA guys think of them. Most MMA guys probably don't even think about CMA or JMA all that much anyway. I would guess that this whole "MMA vs. TMA" war is mainly an internet thing. After all, have you ever been to a MMA gym where the main topic of discussion is "Kung Fu suxxors!"? Basically, who cares about if Kung Fu stylists enter the UFC or not? Do you practice good, effective martial arts? Do you like your teacher(s)? Do the style(s) suit you? If all of these are a yes, who cares about the negative opinions of some person on an internet forum.

good post. plus, when kung fu enters the ring, it all becomes the same as what those guys study. kicking, punching, applying stuff on the ground.

many kung fu teachers dont teach fighting methods anymore either. very few infact teach how to fight and keep up the spirit of the fighter. there are those pioneers out there that are trying to save the reputation of kung fu fighters. sifu ross's gym, sifu lee siu hung and joe keit's people, bak shaolin eagle claw people, all these groups are trying to keep the fighting and skills in kung fu. these are only the few i can think of.

[unkokusai]

There has to be some kind of interest first, don't you think? Whats in it for them? Not much. .



That's just the kind of cop out the thread starter asked to avoid.

[unkokusai]

I'm not interested in UFC.



LOL! "not interested"! That's funny.

[lunghushan]

We've had this argument a LOT. It's tiring by now.

Bottom line is if you want to fight UFCs, why don't YOU go fight UFCs?

[unkokusai]

Maybe cause the people who have the egos don't have the skill, and the people with the skills necessary to win a UFC event don't have the ego.
.

That's another cop out.

[lunghushan]

That's another cop out.

You know, unkokusai, I assume you're a pathetic troll.

The reason I call you a pathetic troll and not just a troll is you don't really put forward anything you can be attacked on. You just attack others.

How about contributing something to a discussion for once, instead of just dissing others?

[lunghushan]

To be perfectly REAL, I've gone and checked out the training of the UFC/MMA fighters. We have at least one guy here locally (Ivan Salaverry) who used to train (maybe still does) in Kirkland, at AMC Pankration.

What they do is kickboxing, boxing and grappling.

There are people there who are just average martial arts geeks, if you will. In fact, there were guys there that I ran into at wing chun and silat class.

And then there are the guys who compete.

The only difference seems to be, that the people who compete, a) train for competing, meaning they spend more hours and they train with people who compete, and b) they're a lot more buff. They seem to work out a lot more and have a LOT more muscle mass.

[SifuAbel]

How about contributing something to a discussion for once, instead of just dissing others?

Ha! And expose himself for the outright loser that he is?!?!?! It will never happen.

This boy is a mental patient.

[lunghushan]

Ha! And expose himself for the outright loser that he is?!?!?! It will never happen.

This boy is a mental patient.

Well you notice he is kindof smart in that way, don't you? He never leaves himself open for attack. He only attacks others.

I have no idea why he's here, though. He must have some interest beyond just attacking others because he could do that anywhere. (Unless he just happened to pick this board for some unknown reason).

[unkokusai]

You know, unkokusai, I assume you're a pathetic troll.


Well, that's certainly something coming from you...

[lunghushan]

Well, that's certainly something coming from you...

Let's play a little game, unkokusai. How about you tell us your opinion about something? Anything, beyond just attacking people.

Like why do you think that CMA doesn't do well against MMA? And make it, say, 250 words or so. Or even 100 words. Or even 50.

[unkokusai]

Ha! And expose himself for the outright loser that he is?!?!?! It will never happen. .



You on the other hand have made an art out of exposing yourself for the outright loser that you are.

[unkokusai]

Like why do you think that CMA doesn't do well against MMA? .



Its not that CMA doesn't do well against MMA, it doesn't do anything against MMA.

[The Xia]

You didn't answer the question.

[The Xia]

Thank you streetfighter.

It is sad that a 17 year old is the only one brave enough to state the truth.:cool:

I was hoping someone would state the truth...[]bWhen The UFC first started somwtime around 1993 it quickly showed the ineptness of most Traditional MA
when it came to real no-holds-barred fighting.[/b] I thought it would put alot more Karate Schools out of business than it did.

The few TMA fighters that entered the early UFC matches were slaughtered.
I remember watching one particuliar Tai Kwan Do guy get knocked to the ground in about 45 seconds of the first round....the look of surprise and embarrassment on his bloodied face made me sad. Thankfully the Striker fighting him ended it quickly before the poor guy got seriously injured.

A Hsing I "master' also got knocked out in the first minute of the first round.

Soon....the combination of Gracie's dominance and the obvious failure of TMA
put an end to the TMA artists or masters even entering the Event.

Alot has changed as the UFC has progressed...the fighters of today would kill the fighters of the early 1990's.

I say this with sadness, because I really hoped a Gene Chicione, John Allen, Don the Dragon Wilson , or Benny the Jet Uriquees would step up and show that TMA was as effective as Octagon Fighters.

But , like everything else....life evolves and changes.

Its like if we were able to have the 1968 Greenbay Packers play last Years Pittsburg Steelers.....can you imagine the outcome ??????

JDK
So do you believe that the UFC and similar venues are the be-all end-all to fighting? Do you believe that if you don't see it in the UFC, it has to suck? If that's what you believe, how do you account for TMA guys that fought for their life on the streets and what about tournaments, that were far more brutal then the UFC, that TMA guys fought in? What do you make of that?

[lunghushan]

You didn't answer the question.

I had to go back about 5 pages in his post history to find a post that didn't seem like just a one or one-two attack combination.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=713896#post713896

In this case it was a 1-2-3 attack combination.

[unkokusai]

You didn't answer the question.



See post #36

[Mr Punch]

Is there a thread or forum that you know of that discusses WHY no Traditional Masters have been successful in the UFC Competitions??????"Er, let me assume you haven't had the internet until now. These arguments have dominated MA forums for maybe more than ten years now.


it's called San Da.....If you're even suggesting san da is even comparable in terms of innovation, training paradigms or even brutality I suggest you start by rereading your friend Mark Tripp' s history and any other histories of judo/jujutsu you can find.


99% of MMAers aren't at the skill level of UFC either. NEXT!!!LOL :D Very very true!


Thank you streetfighter.

It is sad that a 17 year old is the only one brave enough to state the truth.:cool:
And it's sad that you, with '25 years training, 18 years of marriage and 2 kids' sound just like a seventeen year-old. The one single truth he has stated is surprise surprise, something you agree with and that you started this already mummified thread with the intention of eliciting.

BTW, since karate is obviously so useless perhaps you can explain why a lot of kyokushin guys still do very well over here? And again, as somebody mentioned, JJ...? Or boxing, there's an art that's nearly as old as wing chun kung fu and seems to do pretty well in the cage...? Muay Thai anyone? All as parts of a healthy balanced diet! :D It's a no-brainer, incidentally.


...can you imagine the outcome ??????
JDKDid you have a point? Or was it all just rhetorical questions? Don't bother with an answer!


You didn't answer the question.

Yes, he did, but it was only 18 words, not 50 or whatever. It didn't go into too much depth though!
Its not that CMA doesn't do well against MMA, it doesn't do anything against MMA.LOL. True that.

[The Xia]

See post #36
You reformed his question with a new angle and made it a statement. That's not answering the question lungushan asked you.

[The Xia]

Ok let's try this again. This time try actually answering it instead of taking the question and changing it into a statement with a slightly different twist. Here is the question. Why don't you generally see CMA in MMA venues?

[unkokusai]

You reformed his question with a new angle and made it a statement. That's not answering the question lungushan asked you.

I can't make you less stupid. Just keep reading it over and over until the point comes to you.

[unkokusai]

Why don't you generally see CMA in MMA venues?



Well, that's not the question he asked. As for your question, it sure seems likely that there are not enough CMA folks who honestly feel they have a good chance at winning in that venue.

[The Xia]

I can't make you less stupid. Just keep reading it over and over until the point comes to you.
unkokusai throws out another insult. What a surprise! :rolleyes:

Well, that's not the question he asked. As for your question, it sure seems likely that there are not enough CMA folks who honestly feel they have a good chance at winning in that venue.
You know what he meant poop-stink. As for your answer, what leads you to believe that? Please elaborate. Try giving out a well thought out, lengthy post for once.

[lunghushan]

As for your question, it sure seems likely that there are not enough CMA folks who honestly feel they have a good chance at winning in that venue.

That's a start ... a start.

[JDK]

So... you're making the argument that because none enter, any TMAist would lose?

WITHOUT A DOUBT.
But please remember, my question was WHY DONT they enter...

JD

[JDK]

So do you believe that the UFC and similar venues are the be-all end-all to fighting? Do you believe that if you don't see it in the UFC, it has to suck? If that's what you believe, how do you account for TMA guys that fought for their life on the streets and what about tournaments, that were far more brutal then the UFC, that TMA guys fought in? What do you make of that?

No...the UFC is not the end-all, be all to fighting.
They are however one of the closest things to testing ones fighting ability, with as few rules as possible, and clser to a street -fight-attack than any sparring session in most ( not all) TMA Schools.

I had the privilage of watching an a couple old Video's of a former teacher of mine fighting in an underground Match ( and yes....they do exist) over seas in another Country.
I and a few other students watched in amazement as our teacher took and dished out punishing no-holds-barred strikes, kicks, throws and eventually some ground fighting.( not much...both Master's quickly got to their feet so as to avoid
being killed while on the ground.

The Video ended with my teacher winning the fight with a groin/ throat slash combo.
Fortunately the other fighter couldnt continue due to a broken voice box and extreme pain in his groin that knocked him unconcious.

I the other Video...and I hate to recount this....my teacher was "challenged" to a fight with weapons...which at first he refused.
The younger fighter insisted on insulting him until he agreed to fight him.

The "fight" lasted less than 30 seconds...the young, brash challenger got his head cut off with a single Broad Sword strike.:eek:

I am not embelishing or lying...I watched it with my own eyes, and we were all
sworn to secrecy and that is why Imhave avioded names and exact locations.

So....what tournaments are you referring to that are more brutal than the UFC?
I have watched many with much punishment being dealt out because of boxing gloves and rules that gave hurt fighters standing eight counts and round limits...
but noe as real as the Early UFC's before the public outcry and they softened up the fight with rulses, rounds , and judges.:rolleyes:

JD

[JDK]

That's just the kind of cop out the thread starter asked to avoid.

Thank you SifuAbel.

Is there Anyone here with the objectivity to admit the the obvious?

JD

[JDK]

*sigh*

Probably the most "real" reason is that our training methods aren't geared towards competitive fighting. That's not an excuse, just an explanation. For those schools that do practice for competitive sparring, there isn't an excuse.

You can try to guess why they don't try till you're blue in the face.


Thank you for your honesty and logical reasoning Ravenshaw.:)

PS
Not much guessing need though...the competitive sparring schools tried early on and got killed...today they know better than to step inan Octagon with Liddel,
Ortiz, Tim Silvan or...even a Tank Abbot a few years back.

JD

[JDK]

To be perfectly REAL, I've gone and checked out the training of the UFC/MMA fighters. We have at least one guy here locally (Ivan Salaverry) who used to train (maybe still does) in Kirkland, at AMC Pankration.

What they do is kickboxing, boxing and grappling.

There are people there who are just average martial arts geeks, if you will. In fact, there were guys there that I ran into at wing chun and silat class.

And then there are the guys who compete.

The only difference seems to be, that the people who compete, a) train for competing, meaning they spend more hours and they train with people who compete, and b) they're a lot more buff. They seem to work out a lot more and have a LOT more muscle mass.

Good post lunghushan....
The training is vastly different for the student who decides to enter a UFC -Like Event.

JD

[JDK]

Er, let me assume you haven't had the internet until now. These arguments have dominated MA forums for maybe more than ten years now.

If you're even suggesting san da is even comparable in terms of innovation, training paradigms or even brutality I suggest you start by rereading your friend Mark Tripp' s history and any other histories of judo/jujutsu you can find.

LOL :D Very very true!

And it's sad that you, with '25 years training, 18 years of marriage and 2 kids' sound just like a seventeen year-old. The one single truth he has stated is surprise surprise, something you agree with and that you started this already mummified thread with the intention of eliciting.

BTW, since karate is obviously so useless perhaps you can explain why a lot of kyokushin guys still do very well over here? And again, as somebody mentioned, JJ...? Or boxing, there's an art that's nearly as old as wing chun kung fu and seems to do pretty well in the cage...? Muay Thai anyone? All as parts of a healthy balanced diet! :D It's a no-brainer, incidentally.

Did you have a point? Or was it all just rhetorical questions? Don't bother with an answer!



Yes, he did, but it was only 18 words, not 50 or whatever. It didn't go into too much depth though! LOL. True that.

I apologize if this is a worn-out topic...I didnt mean to start insults and post-fighting.

I hoped I had missed something....I hoped someone had a Master who entered the UFC and won a fight or two.
Not win the whole thing...just beat a few of the mediocre opponents.

Seems like It was wishful thinking

JD

[JDK]

The stark reality is that the UFC exposed the flaws in most Traditional Martial Art Schools.

Make all the excuses or cop-outs you want...bottem line ?

In the past 13 years the UFC has opened its doors to all comers
No TMA Practitioner or Master, or Young strong Senior Student of a Master
has won or even came close to winning.

Therefore, like my analogy with football....2007 is different than the Ming-Dynasty Era or othe time perods in huma history.

Todays top UFC athletes have the advantage of all the knowledge of the previous Martial Arts Masters, superior Nutrition, personal trainers, Weights,
hours and hours of grappling and Combat Jujitsu practice...among other trainging
Tools and a heavy emphasis on Cardiovascular training.

Its really not fair to compare.
Like I said...todays steroided up Monster Football Teams would kill the best teams of the 1960's and 70's. The Game has changed.

So has fighting in the 21rst Century.

I will continue my practice of traditional trainng because I love it, and it will allow me to keep a reasonable degree of good health, flexibility and ability to defend my self against most untrained streetfighters and everyday Joe's..in the unlikely event I am forced to fight.

I am blessed with a natural strong striking ability, and my TMA training has only enhanced and made me better.

Again..I apologize for stirring up a hornets nest...I am New to this site and was just seeking differnt points of veiw.

JD...Traditionalist, and proud of it~

[Royal Dragon]

Umm, I thought TCMA guys DID fight in MMA?

Didn't Shooter have his Taiji guys fighting MMA, and hasn't Asia from Bullshido fought in MMA?

I was under the impression a lot of guys do that stuff, with varying results.

I think it's just the majority prefer to fight in our own venues.

Why should we go to UFC, for example, where the striking seen there is pretty lack luster, when we can go to Sanshou and face tougher striking competitors?

I have just lost the whole "MMA (especially UFC) is the superior method" perspective some time ago. I don't see that they are any better than any other fighting venue. UFC suppporters like to ask "If your so good, why won't you play with us", and the answer is because the UFC isn't the be all end all. it just "Thinks" that it is.

You don't see UFC guy go fight in K1, or Sanshou, why not? because they'd get thier clocks cleaned;. Why you ask? Because UFC guys have crappy stand up. And when one of our guys DOES go fight UFC, (Cung Le) they do remarkably well. Which is expected because they are going up inferior competition.

UFC supporters would rather stay in thier little "Grappeling" dominated world, and not really explore tougher opponent. They just want to "Think" they do, because they are delusional. Deep down they know though, and that is why we have all these UFC nut riders allways going on and on about how TCMA suck (yet are afraid to come to our venues and fight). It's like if they say it enough, it will become true, and they can then feel all comfortable in their "Mock" superiority.

So basically they all have no credibility with me anymore.

[Samurai Jack]

The few TMA fighters that entered the early UFC matches were slaughtered.
I remember watching one particuliar Tai Kwan Do guy get knocked to the ground in about 45 seconds of the first round....


It's such a very dead horse, but I can't help pointing out that in the early UFC traditionalists actually did very well. I recently watched the first four UFCs on DVD. I saw a Tae Kwon Do guy beat a man almost a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier to a bloody pulp. Watched a Kempo guy floor an enormous Sumo wrestler.... a Savate guy beat a giant wrestler as well, and of course Jujutsu was a dominating force...

As far as I can tell, things started going downhill for traditionalists in that vaunted venue when the rules began to encourage fighters to mix grappling and striking, and developed rules and weight classes for the new sport. There's nothing wrong with that, but the whole competiotion changed from "lets test our styles" to "lets develop a new sport."

At any rate, it's grossly inaccurate to say "TMA...were slaughtered" in the early UFC.

[Ray Pina]

They don't enter because they won't win.

If they would win they'd do it in a heart beat because the promotion and recognition would be huge... right now these men are willing to make fools of themselves selling all kinds of stupid $hit (like magnets) in the magazines. If they would drop someone with confidence in the UFC they'd do it in a heart beat.

Why you won't see them:

No matter how much you train your iron palm against a non-resisting bag and use jow, you can't iron palm your own jaw bone. You have to be VERY comfortable with being struck at.... when was the last time you witnessed a "traditional master" fight with anyone? Not a student. Not a demonstration.... full out fight against someone who wants to beat them?

You haven't seen it because it doesn't happen. And the one or two times I've seen a self appointed "master" fight under more open style rules they were humiliated (one brokem arm ... another turns and cowards in a corner).

Now, with that said countless people will step up on here and say they're not interested for whatever reason. No $hit! Just like I'm not interested in surfing 100 foot Jaws. I would if I could (and live) but I can't so I'm not interested.

Honestly, do you see a 40 year old, out of shape "Monkey master" stepping up and beating Chuck Lidell?

Yea. Ok.

[Samurai Jack]

I wonder if Chuck Lidell will be competing in MMA when he's elderly?

[unkokusai]

I wonder if Chuck Lidell will be competing in MMA when he's elderly?



I'll bet he'll be willing to fight some elderly 'forms' master (if the $ is right) when he's elderly.


And the other guy will still find some excuse not to.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We choose paths for differing reasons.. some to improve their health, flexibility, and chances to survive the standard street encounter.. others to refine fighting arts to its highest level of punishing violence.. What is at issue is being honest with one's self and others.. I've trained in quite a few styles, including ground fighting.. but, NO, i won't survive in the UFC or Cage matches (i'll use my age, 56, as an excuse).. but, in reality, even in my prime, i wouldn't have fared well against such brutes as play the game today.. Now, for the mouthy punk in the bar or the snippy little thugs taking advantage of defenseless people, i feel secure enough to deal with it.. even a blade doesn't bother me too much (unless i see some decent skill behind it).. but, again, i haven't chosen to go in the professional fighter direction (i tried it in the late '60s, 11-4, and the "4" really hurt!!).. currently, i am exploring internal arts for the potential i have experienced..

I know it's been asked before, but.. why must every dialogue end up with some MMA guy spewing crap about CMA/TCMA.. the obvious is just that, OBVIOUS.. let it go.. Ray nailed it:

If they would win they'd do it in a heart beat because the promotion and recognition would be huge...Simple as that. Now, let it go.. we all know it.. some of those that hold on to the notion that TCMA is "too deadly" still know they wouldn't be the same after mixing up with Tito or Liddel or Hughes.. and, those that have seen UFC know it, too.. it's like screaming to everyone that the fire is hot, we already know it, what's the point.. better yet, get back to your training.. endless hours have been dedicated to stating the obvious..

TCMA players get what they are looking for.. just like MMA players get what they are looking for.. So, get back to what you're looking for..

Be well...

[Ben Gash]

Why don't more TCMA guys enter more MMA events? Certainly in this country limited opportunity, especially the lack of any kind of decent amateur circuit. This makes it very difficult to break into. If your first competitive match is going to be at a semi-pro event it's somewhat off-putting (if you can even get on the card).
Of the amateur events that are around in this country, too many of them are geared towards Gi styles and make you wear one (so this costs you extra, and you have to fight in an uncomfortable, unfamiliar outfit), have stupid rules about striking (I won't fight in a stand up event that doesn't allow face punching, I'm certainly not going to do an MMA fight thus hamstrung), or are about pushing an association agenda (I once tried to enter a supposedly "open" event, only to find that their "open" event required you to have association mambership, at $120!!!)
If I could find a safe, well run open amateur event I would have no hesitation in taking my students there, but they seem to be few and far between.
As for why TMAists don't do better? A) think about it, why doesn't someone who trains in a TMA not beat someone in a sporting format when their opponent trains solely for that sporting format? B) really the track record isn't as bad as it would appear. The vast majority of TMAists (indeed stand up fighters) in the early UFCs were either has beens or nobodies, fighting guys at the top of their games such as Gracie, Shamrock, Taktarov etc.
As for why doesn't some master jump in and fight for the honour of TMA? Largely because the term master implies that you're somewhat over 20, and have a little perspective on things :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

As for why doesn't some master jump in and fight for the honour of TMA? Largely because the term master implies that you're somewhat over 20, and have a little perspective on things :rolleyes:



'Perspective' = afraid to get beat to hell by a younger figher and blow your image and the income you make off it.

[Ben Gash]

Perspective = realising that in the grand scheme of things it's simply not important enough to take the time out to do the extra training required for 6 months to make a pretty meaningless point that all the MMA people will ignore or dismiss anyway :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Perspective = realising that in the grand scheme of things it's simply not important enough to take the time out to do the extra training required for 6 months to make a pretty meaningless point that all the MMA people will ignore or dismiss anyway :rolleyes:



MMA people would niether ignore or dismiss success. They have every motivation to do just the opposite.

And if say, a Hung-gar man were to acquit himself well in competition (not beat EVERYONE, just do well consistently at a high level) the publicity and surge in enrollment would make him rich and respected and improve the lot of all Hung-gar teachers and students.

[Ray Pina]

Keeping things in perspective:

I train at Renzo Gracies, a premier BJJ academy in the US.... of the hundreds (probably thousands) of people that train there ... of all belt levels.... only a very small handful, less than 3 percent, have any interest in fighting.



There are many underground venues that will allow you to fight under rules that you like. There is an article about a recent event I was invited to in today's (or yesterday's) NY Times Metro Section. There are also Throwdowns and any number of contacts you can create yourself using the internet


Most MMA events, even those with heavy rules, are FAR more advanced and cover more stages of fighting that karate, TKD and Kung Fu tournaments. For those that have an interest there is no excuse. For those that don't, there's no excuse needed. It's very simply: fighting is dangerous and can hurt... at best.

This is why I take martial arts practice seriously. It's like that old modeling commercial... be a model or just look like one. You might not want to go fight, but you should train as if you are. That's martial arts.

[Knifefighter]

Generally, TMA “masters” have too much to lose to fight publicly. Occasionally you will see a match like the San Soo vs. MMA or the aikido vs. Karate/BJJ purple belt that was making the rounds a few weeks ago.

Usually the TMA guy loses badly and then loses all his business. It’s much better, in terms of keeping the $$$$ rolling in, just to keep up the mystique of being a master.

[Ben Gash]

^I do not live in the US. Of those that do live in the US most don't live in the major cities where this is easy.

[Knifefighter]

I doubt that your teacher felt like he was wasting your time with what you call "fluff".
I’m sure the aikido chi master didn’t think he was wasting anyone’s time either.

[unkokusai]

^I do not live in the US. Of those that do live in the US most don't live in the major cities where this is easy.

What are you talking about? :confused:

[Knifefighter]

^I do not live in the US. Of those that do live in the US most don't live in the major cities where this is easy.
In these days of YouTube, it would be a simple matter to stage an underground event yourself and then post the fights.

[Knifefighter]

So... you're making the argument that because none enter, any TMAist would lose?

That, plus the fact, the recent history has shown that they usually do lose.

[Knifefighter]

good post. plus, when kung fu enters the ring, it all becomes the same as what those guys study. kicking, punching, applying stuff on the ground..
Because that’s what works in fighting.

That’s exactly the reason that so many CMA guys lose… because they think that fighting is somehow different than kicking, punching and applying stuff on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

To be perfectly REAL, I've gone and checked out the training of the UFC/MMA fighters. We have at least one guy here locally (Ivan Salaverry) who used to train (maybe still does) in Kirkland, at AMC Pankration.
What they do is kickboxing, boxing and grappling.
Exactly…

Once again, that’s what real fighting is.

[Knifefighter]

So do you believe that the UFC and similar venues are the be-all end-all to fighting? Do you believe that if you don't see it in the UFC, it has to suck? If that's what you believe, how do you account for TMA guys that fought for their life on the streets and what about tournaments, that were far more brutal then the UFC, that TMA guys fought in? What do you make of that?
Lots of people are attacked and have to fight for their lives on the street. Many street attacks are far more brutal than the UFC.

Doesn’t’ mean just because they are fighting for their lives in a brutal environment that they have any skills, though.

[lunghushan]

Exactly…

Once again, that’s what real fighting is.

That's what they think too. BTW, KF, I asked and I have permission to show you a couple of standing arm breaks if I get down to Southern California (not fighting, just a friendly meeting), so you can judge for yourself. Don't know when I'll get down there, though.

[Knifefighter]

I hoped I had missed something....I hoped someone had a Master who entered the UFC and won a fight or two.
Not win the whole thing...just beat a few of the mediocre opponents.

Fred Floyd beat a pro-wrestler in one of the early MMA events (WCC, I believe).

Also, there was the huge Karate guy who sprawled and squashed Carlos Newton in another of the early events.

Jason Delucia, who beat another TMA guy, although he had a background in BJJ when that happened. He later went on to have a pretty successful MMA career, but he had completely adopted the MMA training paradigm by then. Many people claim he wasn’t really a CMA guy in the first place.

Alan Orr’s WC guys are competing and winning at entry level events, but their fighting is heavily influenced by BJJ/sub wrestling.

Any TMA guy who wins consistenlty will need to be heavily supplemented by BJJ, Sambo, Judo, or sub wrestling.

[lunghushan]

Good post lunghushan....
The training is vastly different for the student who decides to enter a UFC -Like Event.

JD

No, really it didn't seem to be vastly different at AMC Pankration. The pros just seem to put more time into it, and the ones who compete train against the ones who compete, and get more hands on training from the trainer -- Matt Hume.

An example is while I was there, not only was Ivan Salaverry there training but also a guy from Japan who was flown over and was being paid just to train. He seemed to put in a lot more hours. Salaverry has won at least a couple UFC fights.

[Knifefighter]

T BTW, KF, I asked and I have permission to show you a couple of standing arm breaks if I get down to Southern California (not fighting, just a friendly meeting), so you can judge for yourself.
Absolultely.

[Wood Dragon]

Never mind the UFC, what about K-1?

"Traditionalists" (term applied loosely) have done pretty well there. Many Kyokushin (we're sort of traditional...) fighters, some Goju/Shoto- style karatekas, a handful of TKDers, and many Muay Thai boxers have won K-1 matches.

AFAIK, either zero or very, very few CMA practitioners have fought in K-1. It isn't because of San Shou, as the money doesn't compare with K-1 (and, let's face it, at that level, you're fighting for $$$).

So why the non-participation?

[lunghushan]

BTW, JDK, you want to know why I personally don't fight in MMA events, it's two main reasons: a) I don't want to get my face scarred up just to prove I can do MMA. b) I don't want to **** off any traditional martial arts instructors who don't like that sort of thing.

[PangQuan]

It is the current generations that are alive today that will wittness current events and make decisions based on these events. These decisions will directly effect the near future generations.


Today more than ever, you find people involved in TMA who are wittnessing the surge of the past many years of the MMA climax.

Many of these TMA'ers are converting over to MMA, or realizing that they need to add to their plate to have a full meal.

These current generations that are making the decisions will decide how TMA plays out in the next few decades.

My prediction:

With the vast introduction of eastern arts to the west in the past century, westerners are being directly associated with a large portion of the future of martial arts.

MMA cannot be ignored. Those with any understanding of fight evolution can see this.

These are the people with whom we can look to, to see the future of our martial arts.

Today is when the old meets the new. YinYang will be prevelent, as always.

MMA is quickly becoming a tradition of its own, with highly structured training facilities popping up around the world.

Much as every country adopted the use of fire, the wheel, firearms, electricity, etc...you can expect to see the introduction of more modern principles being inducted into many old traditions.

Does this mean that many old traditions will be lost? No. There will always be those who will preserve these traditions, and we should thank them.

For these people, who continue on the traditions of thier forefathers, give us the opportunity to united these old traditions with the new.

Thus the continued evolution of martial arts. Something that cannot be denied, nor should be.

This merging of old traditions with new by many of todays generations, will be your outlet to see the use of some older traditional ways in the ring.

However, with any form of evolution, the waste must be cut away, while the useful kept.

This is MMA.

MMA as i see it is still in its early stages of structure as a tradition. Many MMA people view traditional arts as wholey ineffective. Which is not the case. Some prominent MMA practitioners however, can see what is still usefull in many traditional arts.

These are the men and women whom we can look to, to insure the proper development of modernized martial arts.

To blindly view in any direction is still a blind view.

Effective is effective, regardless of its source.

as always, Truth, is the only thing that counts.

I for one lookforward to the coming years of martial arts development, until i die.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It never ceases to amaze me that at least every two weeks someone posts something about MMA vs. CMA or why doesn't a Kung Fu master fight in the UFC. How many god **** threads on this outdated subject must there be. Think about this, do you think Dana White would sanction a fight between some obscure self proclaimed Kung Fu master against Liddell or Slvia or any other UFC champion. What would be the point?? How the hell would up and coming fighters feel if some guy off the street suddenly got a shot at one of the champions so he could "represent Kung Fu". Think about how stupid that would truly be. As for what would happen, I believe someone with good striking and good groundwork from a CMA could do well but it would be the individual, not the style. Individuals and training methods make for a good fighter, not my Sifu killed 78 opponents in the secret underground Kumite. (Bloodsport, 1987 Oscar award for Best Picture)

[Shaolinlueb]

wasnt there a kung fu guy in the early ufc's who took on some sumo dude and he split his head open?

[lkfmdc]

"kung fu guys" in early UFC's....

Jason Delucia, credentials as TCMA person in question, had already trained with Gracies, yet got his arm broke by Royce

Ramirez, fat, out of shape Pa Kua guy who trashed the UFC in that "other" magazine so much he got his shot at a UFC fight. Despite claims he'd literally cripple people with his "advanced internal palm" he was KO'd in less than a minute

Levecki (sp?) Wing Chun guy who did OK in early rounds but broke hand and never fought Royce

San Shou guy who actually made Ken Shamrock work a long time to get a takedown, was one of the longest UFC matches at that point, but on the ground didn't offer anything

[Shaolinlueb]

"kung fu guys" in early UFC's....

Jason Delucia, credentials as TCMA person in question, had already trained with Gracies, yet got his arm broke by Royce

Ramirez, fat, out of shape Pa Kua guy who trashed the UFC in that "other" magazine so much he got his shot at a UFC fight. Despite claims he'd literally cripple people with his "advanced internal palm" he was KO'd in less than a minute

Levecki (sp?) Wing Chun guy who did OK in early rounds but broke hand and never fought Royce

San Shou guy who actually made Ken Shamrock work a long time to get a takedown, was one of the longest UFC matches at that point, but on the ground didn't offer anything

well thanks for filling me in :)

[lunghushan]

The guy you are thinking of is White Tiger Kenpo or something like that, beat the 600 lb. sumo guy but broke his own hand in the process.

[msg]

well first of all ufc is boring i have seen better fighting in a bar they just roll around on the floor and rely on how strong they are if you did that on the street you would have one of his buddys boot you in the head

[msg]

there was a quote about a hsing.i master being knocked out in the first round in the ufc i would find that realy hard to imagine........ he just claimed to be

[David Jamieson]

why do we bother with these ghey threads anyway?

this topic is officially ghey to the max.

and with that. I'll add "exit only".

now back to bullshido with you nancyboy! :p

[MonkeyKingUSA]

My understanding of BJJ is that the practice is different from traditional JJ, with more focus on sparring and competition.

If a CMA version of Kano came along, we might be in better competitive shape.

BJJ = Judo without the forms.

It is not jujutsu. It is not practiced like jujutsu. Any jujutsuan would know this.

WuShu, San Shou and Shuai Jiao are the Kano-type versions of CMA.

[Ravenshaw]

BJJ = Judo

It is not jujutsu. It is not practiced like jujutsu. Any jujutsuan would know this.

Like I said, that is my understanding. I don't claim to practice any of the above at this time.


WuShu, San Shou and Shuai Jiao are the Kano-type versions of CMA.

Unless I'm mistaken, Shuai Jiao is very old. Isn't it a style of its own rather than a competition format for kung fu? If anyone could clarify, I'd appreciate it.

San Shou is a rule set whose main style appears to be a combination of boxing, kickboxing, and judo, although some CMA schools do appear to teach San Da using their own styles. As I admitted before, it was dense of me to overlook San Shou, since I practice it, but the reason I did was because I typically think of it as a rule set rather than simply a streamlined version of kung fu. And the style which I practice and call "San Shou" isn't directly related to CMA.

[unkokusai]

well first of all ufc is boring i have seen better fighting in a bar they just roll around on the floor and rely on how strong they are if you did that on the street you would have one of his buddys boot you in the head



Wow! We've never seen that posted before! :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Levecki (sp?) Wing Chun guy who did OK in early rounds but broke hand and never fought Royce
David Levicki fought Rickson in Vapan Vale Tudo... got taken down, mounted and lost either by arm bar or choke.

[Knifefighter]

The guy you are thinking of is White Tiger Kenpo or something like that, beat the 600 lb. sumo guy but broke his own hand in the process.
Keith Hackney.

[lkfmdc]

WuShu, San Shou and Shuai Jiao are the Kano-type versions of CMA.

WTF? :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek: :confused:

Wushu is physical education at best, no fighting application whatsoever. It is designed to make for healthy kids without giving them any ability to fight. That is NOT AT ALL WHAT KANO WAS ABOUT

San Shou/San Da, like Judo, Sambo, and BJJ is a direct result of Kano and his concept of Randori. If no Kano, no san da....

Shuai Jiao is a fold style of wrestling, like hundreds, maybe thousands in existance.

[lkfmdc]

David Levicki fought Rickson in Vapan Vale Tudo... got taken down, mounted and lost either by arm bar or choke.

Correct (except I think it was Japan :D ) but since he asked about UFC matches I didn't think that was relevent

[SifuAbel]

I’m sure the aikido chi master didn’t think he was wasting anyone’s time either.

So, you are comparing Ross's teacher to an aikido chi master? Dumb ass. :rolleyes:

[Samurai Jack]

Greetings..

TCMA players get what they are looking for.. just like MMA players get what they are looking for.. So, get back to what you're looking for..


Well said.

[lunghushan]

Well said.

Honestly I think they should provide a CMA environment with more partner training like a MMA environment, where there's a lot more partner practice of more than just stupid techniques.

Where they know about blood-borne diseases and skin borne diseases and protect their students.

But that's not gonna happen any time soon. No instructor wants to deal with that because they don't want to discourage students and lose $.

That's another reason I don't do MMA.

[Samurai Jack]

Shoot lunghushan, it sounds like you've got a firm idea of what it would take to do that. Why don't you start teaching? I'd come up and pay your school a visit if you did, and I'd bet there'd be a big demand for some realistic kungfu. You'd probably be able to pick up a few students from this very forum.

[lunghushan]

Shoot lunghushan, it sounds like you've got a firm idea of what it would take to do that. Why don't you start teaching? I'd come up and pay your school a visit if you did, and I'd bet there'd be a big demand for some realistic kungfu. You'd probably be able to pick up a few students from this very forum.

Oh, you mean the CMA in MMA style thing. I already have the gear for that, rash guards and gloves and stuff.

No, I'm not really into the mass teaching thing. My sifu wants all of his senior students to teach once he retires but that will be a few years still, and I don't really think I want to do that.

Anyways I guess you make a good point (or maybe you weren't trying to imply it) which is I probably shouldn't complain about it unless I plan on doing something about it. :)

[Fuzzly]

I am not really sure if it is a TCMA vs MMA type of thing, as it is training methods. I am very young, and I haven't visited a whole lot of schools, but as I see it, it's now what you train but how you train it.

If you go to a MMA school (gym, training hall, whatever is the correct term) you will not only be learning techniques, but you will be applying them against resisting opponents, going %100 if not close to that.

I've seen a couple schools (not going to mention styles, because A) I've forgotten a couple of them and B), it doesn't matter) where they learn techniques, but they don't apply them. Or, rather, they don't apply them against an opponent who is actively trying to do his own thing.

If you learn a technique, but don't learn how to apply it against an unwilling opponent, I don't see how you could expect to do anything "on the streets."

So I just think it's more of a % thing. All MMA gyms, wrestlers, and sport competitors are constantly training at %100. But some "TCMA" schools do not.

But, some "TCMA" schools do train against unwilling opponents, and those are probably the ones that you would see have success in a ring.

[JDK]

[QUOTE=Ravenshaw;730196]Like I said, that is my understanding. I don't claim to practice any of the above at this time.

Unless I'm mistaken, Shuai Jiao is very old. Isn't it a style of its own rather than a competition format for kung fu? If anyone could clarify, I'd appreciate it.

QUOTE]

Hi Monkeyking~
You ae correct, SHUAI-CHIAO is considered to be one of the oldest Martial Arts.
The info below gives a brief but accurate history.

*May I add that If you ever witnessed a good SHUAI-CHIAO practioner in actual combat .. I have) you will have no doubt as to its deadly, effectiveness.
Judo is the softer off shoot of SHUAI-CHIAO... eg- Sport Judo is throws and some joint locks that result in points awarded based on clean techniques....SHUAI-CHIAO combines strikes, followed by hard throws that are designed to trap the opponents hands, (so they cannot break their fall),,and they
are literally slammed head first into the ground with the intent of knocking them out or at the least breaking a shoulder, neck or collar bone. It is an extremely brutal Martial Art,...:(

CHINESE SHUAI-CHIAO, THE MOTHER OF KUNG FU

Shuai-Chiao, the Mount Everest of China's martial arts ranges, is a famous killing style paneratium in its sublimity of Kung fu package. This age-old technique strikes a combination of every telling trick in blows, kicks, locks and throws as what is known as Shuai, the throwing; Nah, grappling; Tien, fatal pointing and Tah, striking.

However, Shuai-Chiao was not historicized until it was first used by Yellow Emperor (Huang-Ti, 2690 B.C.) to beat down his legendary archenemy, Chih-Yiu. The highly combatant art was called Chiao-Tih at the time.

Down to the Cheu Dynasty (1134 B.C.), the technique, then known as Chiao-Lih, was made an important course to train soldiers. As time went by, it became much more popularized around 264 B.C. Not only did Shuai-Chiao then exist as a major game in both civilian and military activities, but also was it ascertained as a regular monarch entertainment.

In about 140 B.C., Shuai-Chiao came to a new peak. Emperor Wu of the Han Dynasty was so crazy about the art that he proclaimed it the permanent royal recreation. During his reign, he inspired such a heat that people of all walks swarmed to watch the Shuai-Chiao tournaments from a circuit of 500 miles. At the time, Chiao-Tih was its given name.

From generation after generation, this monarchial technique was passed down. Thus it came to the Shuoi Dynasty (610 A.D.). In the sixth year of Emperor Young's ruling, a nation wide contest was held on Tuan-Mon Street. The event lasted for 30 days and the Emperor himself, in plain clothes, was a ringside frequenter.

So the tradition was set for the yearly tournament. There was a national meet held on each 15th day of the first Calendar month. More and more, this conventional art rooted into the life of the ancient Chinese.

Nevertheless, as politics always have some say in regards to the sports, Emperor Kao-Tsu of Tang Dynasty (618 A.D.), who must have preferred seeing Shuai-Chiao games in warmer days, ordered them to hold the yearly tournaments on each 15th day of the 17th Calendar month.

Shuai-Chiao, having been taken as a top-drawer martial art, was a privilege course for monarchial training for some 300 years (618-907 A.D.). As a result, there turned out many supreme rulers who were expert throwers as well.

During the time of Kubla Khan (1216 A.D.), this technique was boosted to another high. Various names were given to it as Poh-Ho, Tsong-Chiao or Hsiang-Puh, the last of which has ever since been used by Japanese till now for there Sumo wrestling.

Arriving at the end of the Ming Dynasty (1644 A.D.), while the Manchurian invaders were overwhelming, a Chekiang native called Cheng Woon-Pin, 52, good at pugilism and little Shuai-Chiao, was sent to Japan to aid, together with his comrades, Chu Shum-Shuei and Lee Mei-Shi. Stricken by result less efforts and growing political pressure, they could go nowhere but stay at a Buddhist Temple, therein they taught 3 Samurai students namely, Fukunoshiehile-Wuemon, Mirulayosi Wuemen, and Isomizile Saemon, the Shuai-Chiao techniques, which later on were developed into Judo.

In Ching Dynasty (1644 A.D.), this fantastic art became to listed of the monarch activities. The new rulers set up a "Good-Wrestlers' Camp" (Shan-Pah Ying), packing about 300 tiger team Shuai-Chiao experts, all-time ready for royal entertainments, foreign challenges, national tournaments and majestic reviews. Tribal teams from Mongolians, Uigurs, Tibetan champions and other combative districts were more than often sent to challenge the Camp.

After this Republic was established in 1911, Shuai-Chiao was spread wide in the south. A Governor Ma-Liang of Shantung province organized a Martial arts' Battalian and deemed Shuai-Chaio as the name of this traditional technique in his training curriculums. Further in the 1928, a General Chang-Chih-Chiang set up a Central-Kung fu (Kuo-Shu) Institute in Nanking and Shuai-Chiao was a required course for students, selected from each local province for advanced training. Thus the name Shuai-Chiao has been known till now.

SPECIALTY
Shuai-Chiao, a sublime combination of all fighting techniques, is a super science of mechanics. It carries out time, speed, force and angle to its highest gear, applying free use of blow kicks, catches, and locks by the conveyance of throwing.

For modern-day exercise convienance, current practitioners lower the killing levels and separated a complete Kung fu into Judo, Aikido, Fatal Point Striking and Karate. Actually, all of the above four summed up make basic parcel of Shuai-Chiao.

As Shuai-Chiao comprehends techniques of both offensives and defensives, it focuses applications of all parts of human body in properly managing them to operates the strength by saving, borrowing, and returning the enemy's power so as to effectively beat down the rival.

From all of the techniques devised by earlier practitioners, came all of the latter day styles as in Hsing Yi, Pa Qua, Lo Han and Tai Chi Chen. Shuai-Chiao was the most deadly form of martial arts ever devised.

The Father of modern day Shuai-Chiao was Grand Master Dung Sheng Chang. Upon his untimely death in 1986, the command passed to Master Gene L. Chicoine, 9th Degree Black Belt and 13th son to the, his late teacher and First Vice President of the International Shuai-Chiao Association, and now its President and highest ranked in the world in Shuai-Chiao. Master Chicoine is probably the last head of style to be tested by combat and not sport.

--Nelson Wings

JD

[MonkeyKingUSA]

WTF? :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek: :confused:

Wushu is physical education at best, no fighting application whatsoever. It is designed to make for healthy kids without giving them any ability to fight. That is NOT AT ALL WHAT KANO WAS ABOUT

San Shou/San Da, like Judo, Sambo, and BJJ is a direct result of Kano and his concept of Randori. If no Kano, no san da....

Shuai Jiao is a fold style of wrestling, like hundreds, maybe thousands in existance.

Kano was exactly about physical education! Kano was a school teacher. He created Judo for Japan's public education system. He was an instructor in two arts of jujutsu. He distilled these arts to create a sport art for the public school systems. Like Wu Shu, he created forms for his system. Like San Da, his new system had striking techniques within the forms. Like Shuai Jaio, throwing and unbalancing techniques were a part of the curriculum. Judo was a sport with a purpose, physical education. Had Kano only been interested in teaching kids to fight, he would have taught them jujutsu. The arts of Japan which incorporate jujutsu as a part of their curriculum are complete systems of which throwing and grappling are only a small part.
BTW, the karate forms created in the 1930's were created for the same purpose. For physical education in the school system.

JDK,
Interesting post! Thanks for sharing the info!
I do not claim to know anything about modern shuai jiao. I defer to my student Gino Belfiore who was a two time world champion in shuai jiao (placing at the top in competitions in France and Taiwan) before he began his training with me. :)

[lkfmdc]

I guess complete ignorance of the facts never stops anyone from posting on the internet.....




Kano was exactly about physical education! Kano was a school teacher. He created Judo for Japan's public education system.


Kano's primary objective was to save a by then stagnant Jiu Jitsu....

He introduced what you call "sport" as "randori", which is not actually sport, it is alive practice. Even the "sport" was always with combat in mind, "shiai" in original Judo was written as "mutual death"... always remember combat, ever tap is a death

If Kano was about physical education, why did he set up a NO RULES CHALLENGE with the Jiu Jitsu clans in order to win the police contract? Why if he was about physical education would such matches end in DEATH.... we believe that about 3 of the Jiu Jitsu people DIED after the challenges




He distilled these arts to create a sport art for the public school systems.



Cite a source for this claim..... you are confusing the Heian kata which were put in the Okinawan public school system




Like Wu Shu, he created forms for his system.



Ninja please :rolleyes: Stretching and grasping at straws here aren't we




Judo was a sport with a purpose, physical education.



Judo is much more than what you call "sport" (shiai)... in fact it is secondary to "randori"... and of course there is also goshinjitsu






Had Kano only been interested in teaching kids to fight, he would have taught them jujutsu.



No he wouldn't have, because he knew the Jujitsu method of fighting was ineffective and dying out.... which he PROVED with the challenge matches where he destroyed the jujitsu people

:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Judo is the softer off shoot of SHUAI-CHIAO...eg- Sport Judo is throws and some joint locks that result in points awarded based on clean techniques....SHUAI-CHIAO combines strikes, followed by hard throws that are designed to trap the opponents hands, (so they cannot break their fall),,and they
are literally slammed head first into the ground with the intent of knocking them out or at the least breaking a shoulder, neck or collar bone. It is an extremely brutal Martial Art,.
Yeah, that's the spin-marketing version of it.

Just more "too deadly to be used for real" deadly technique B.S.

Anyone who is practicing an applicable version of it, is doing it pretty much the same way as all Judo, BJJ, Sambo and wrestling people work throws and takedowns. Realistic grappling doesn't change much if you are doing it right.

Anyone who tells you they have a super deadly grappling art that is somehow more "brutal" than all the others, it either lying to you or is completely clueless.

[Knifefighter]

Had Kano only been interested in teaching kids to fight, he would have taught them jujutsu.
That's the last thing he would have taught them.

[lunghushan]

No he wouldn't have, because he knew the Jujitsu method of fighting was ineffective and dying out.... which he PROVED with the challenge matches where he destroyed the jujitsu people

:rolleyes:

Jujitsu was designed for fighting with armor and with weapons. Of course you put them in Judo rules most of them are not going to be able to do as well.

Judo is nothing more than an offshoot of Jujitsu. Like Aikido is an offshoot of Jujitsu.

[Shaolinlueb]

If you go to a MMA school (gym, training hall, whatever is the correct term) you will not only be learning techniques, but you will be applying them against resisting opponents, going %100 if not close to that.


my sifu trains all the higher up students like this with punches and kicks and chin na and such. whats the point of learning it if you cant apply it? i have goptten knocked a couple times missing stuff. we dont start it off fast, but get into it as we get better at the techniques.
so not all CMA schools train "unrealistic, repetive action, 1 move applications, where a student gets stuck if the move isnt going to his advantage" its all about being able to flow too.
its pretty brutal though and isnt for everyone. thats why there are toned down cma classes for the average person. doesnt mean its bad training.

[SevenStar]

Maybe cause the people who have the egos don't have the skill, and the people with the skills necessary to win a UFC event don't have the ego.



Wow, now I want some waffles.

it's funny how people tend to try and center competition solely around things like greed and ego. I think these people really do not understand competition.

[SevenStar]

Judo is the softer off shoot of SHUAI-CHIAO...

actually, this cannot be historically verified. to date, there is no solid link between shuai chiao and either judo or jujutsu. SC's principles actually seem more closely tied to sumo wrestling.

[SevenStar]

well first of all ufc is boring i have seen better fighting in a bar they just roll around on the floor and rely on how strong they are if you did that on the street you would have one of his buddys boot you in the head

that is so ignorant that you should be banninated just for posting it.

[lunghushan]

that is so ignorant that you should be banninated just for posting it.

Yeah, they don't just roll around and rely on strength, they also dance around on their toes hitting each other and relying on strength.

[SevenStar]

Keeping things in perspective:

I train at Renzo Gracies, a premier BJJ academy in the US.... of the hundreds (probably thousands) of people that train there ... of all belt levels.... only a very small handful, less than 3 percent, have any interest in fighting.

this varies from school to school. We have a bjj black belt at our school, and well over 50% of our enrollment in muay thai, bjj AND judo either compete in some fashion (bjj, judo, muay thai, mma) or have the desire to.



This is why I take martial arts practice seriously. It's like that old modeling commercial... be a model or just look like one. You might not want to go fight, but you should train as if you are. That's martial arts.


agreed.

[unkokusai]

Yeah, they don't just roll around and rely on strength, they also dance around on their toes hitting each other and relying on strength.

Yeah, they should do more forms and posing to make scrubs like you feel better about yourselves.

[unkokusai]

Jujitsu was designed for fighting with armor and with weapons. .

Actually, it was for use with and without armor, and with and without weapons.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, they should do more forms and posing to make scrubs like you feel better about yourselves.

So I think I have you figured out, BTW, unkokusai -- there's only one thing you're ever really positive about, and that's women in MA flicks.

I think you need to get yourself a nice Chinese wushu girl and settle down.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I guess complete ignorance of the facts never stops anyone from posting on the internet.....

If you want to debate the facts, that is one thing. But DO NOT DEMEAN ME!!! :mad:
Discussion ended!

[lkfmdc]

If you want to debate the facts, that is one thing. But DO NOT DEMEAN ME!!! :mad:
Discussion ended!

TRANSLATION - he doesn't have any facts to debate the points I addressed so he's taking his marbles and going home

You post was wildly inaccurate, as I pointed out in detail with reference to facts. You could address those, of you can go off in a huff

[ginosifu]

You guys really like to argue. This topic has been rolled and rerolled a zillion times (can I say Zillion?).

Why don't you take all of you biast attitudes and self absorbed styles and get a life!

You guys may not believe this or not, but did you guys know thta with all your fighting, gossiping & badgering that your Senoirs (with that I mean all of the old school masters like Wing Lam, Yang Jwing Ming etc etc whom never post here), yell at us Sifu about what you guys are doing here on the forums. I get an earful everyday about someone who was not supposed to say a certain thing or someone was not allowed to post a certain video of a form.

Instead of badgering each other, why not find a way to help each other. Maybe try to standardize kung fu or help everyone in the world be informed about the martial arts.

CMA VS UFC !

Did any of you get the latest DVD of Fearless? The bonus section has a conversation with Jet Li and his words speak it all.

"There is no difinative one best style, only different levels of skill."

With this you can stop badgering each other about who is better. First of all, MMA fighters are great athletes and great fighters. However, to say they are the bomb is incorrect. They are only good at what they do. To put a CMA fighter in the ring with a MMA is like comparing apples to oranges. It just wont work.

If a great MMA fighter and a great CMA fighter meet, both have equal skill in their stlyes:

If they meet in a MMA venue, most likely the MMA will win. If they meet in a CMA venue, most likely the CMA fighter will win. Let me make a small example.

Take a great MMA fighter like Chuck Ludell, if was to come to my school and fight me, I would have use monkey and gauge his eyes and pokes to his throat. I would also run around alot since there is no Octogon to pin me up against. If he would catch me or put me in a choke I might be thru. The only true thing you can say is the guy who trains the most in his given style will most likely be thr winner.

My finall word for everyone is The best style in the world is:

THE ONE YOU LOVE AND PRACTICE THE MOST

Ginosifu :p

[lunghushan]

You guys really like to argue. This topic has been rolled and rerolled a zillion times (can I say Zillion?).


There's two dynamics at work here, I think -- one is that a lot of CMA people probably want a venue to fight and use their techniques and think they're not getting enough partner practice, but the training and venues for such fighting don't really seem to exist. The MMA venues aren't really applicable to CMA technique, are they? And sanda/sanshou is watered down.

Some people on here have agendas -- if they're pro teachers why would they waste their time posting on here? Obviously it has to do with promoting themselves and their products. Everytime lkmfdc posts he's advertising his site and his DVDs. So he wants to promote his way which is sanda/sanshou/MMA with a CMA background.

A lot of people posting on here teach private classes, and obviously they want to get more students.

So that's probably why it keeps coming up.

[SevenStar]

Take a great MMA fighter like Chuck Ludell, if was to come to my school and fight me, I would have use monkey and gauge his eyes and pokes to his throat. I would also run around alot since there is no Octogon to pin me up against. If he would catch me or put me in a choke I might be thru.


you had an excellent post, until you posted that... are you serious? the rest of the post was great, though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This whole thread can be answered easily.

There are two kinds of MA's (principally, sometimes there's people who are both):

1. Traditionalists

2. Tournament fighters.

Traditionalists tend to last longer, or have the stronger desire to teach, and they inherit the tradition. Hence, they are Traditional Masters.

Tournament fighters might last as long, but their tournament skills distance them from the traditions--no, it's not a cop out--and they tend to begin to think in functionality. They scrap what they don't need, and become MMA'ers. Hence, they break with tradition.

Neither one's better. One path is just suited better to the person walking it.

The reason why Traditional Masters don't enter the UFC?

Because they'd probably cease to be Traditional Masters. Traditional MA's are in the UFC, right now. Only, they've adapted to their particular needs, and scrapped some traditions along the way. It's why many TCMA'ers rag on UFC, and MMA'ers rag on TCMA'ers.

Simple as that.

[Raised by Swans]

I agree. It's very hard to maintain credibility in both TMA and MMA.

I moved around alot when I got into KF. The second school I went to was a traditional Hung Gar school. However, the instructor also trained MMA fighters on the side. As I continued there, his fighters kept winning and began gaining notority in the local Rage in the Cage movement and more MMA fighters joined up at his school.

Eventually, the school turned a 180 and I was one of a select few still learning KF, and even then, the Sifu taught it only under the stipulation that I also fought in MMA boughts. It all boiled down to money. In the end, it came down to how the Sifu of this particular school could keep his doors open.

In regards to TMA fighters not succeeding in the MMA arena, I think the whole conversation is rather mute. I've seen amazing TMAers convert their fighting style to work in the MMA arena and vice versa. There's no such thing as one art being better than the other, only one person being better than the other.

[7starstudent]

The reason why Traditional Masters don't enter the UFC?

Because they'd probably cease to be Traditional Masters. Traditional MA's are in the UFC, right now. Only, they've adapted to their particular needs, and scrapped some traditions along the way. It's why many TCMA'ers rag on UFC, and MMA'ers rag on TCMA'ers.

Simple as that.

First of all, I can't believe I read all 9 pages of this post. Secondly, Shaolin Wookie's remarks above are possibly some of the most insightful I've ever read after years of lurking on this forum.

Well said.

[SifuAbel]

Take a great MMA fighter like Chuck Ludell, if was to come to my school and fight me, I would have use monkey and gauge his eyes and pokes to his throat. I would also run around alot since there is no Octogon to pin me up against. If he would catch me or put me in a choke I might be thru. The only true thing you can say is the guy who trains the most in his given style will most likely be thr winner.


You're not helping.

You should have stopped before this.

If I were to start a line with "I would use monkey", it would be followed with " my striking is complemented by my familiarity of movement close to the ground, low center of gravity, speed, elusivness, range of attacks, unorthodox footwork, etc. It would not include the eye gouge.

[Knifefighter]

Take a great MMA fighter like Chuck Ludell, if was to come to my school and fight me, I would have use monkey and gauge his eyes and pokes to his throat. I would also run around alot since there is no Octogon to pin me up against. If he would catch me or put me in a choke I might be thru.
Since when does one need any training to poke someone in the eye and run away?

[ginosifu]

Take a great MMA fighter like Chuck Ludell, if was to come to my school and fight me, I would have use monkey and gauge his eyes and pokes to his throat. I would also run around alot since there is no Octogon to pin me up against. If he would catch me or put me in a choke I might be thru. The only true thing you can say is the guy who trains the most in his given style will most likely be thr winner.

I am sorry if you guys mis interpreted my statement. It was a hypthetical situation that could have happened at any school. I tried to make an example of different approaches to martial arts and who would be at an advantage and who would not.

You guys are definatley wound to tight. This one of the biggest problems with many of you. You tend to harp all over anyone that does not fall into one of your precast categories.

Instead of harping on each other.... you should help one another. Promote the good clean martial arts that everyone wants.

Ginosifu :p

[ginosifu]

I am sorry If my Monkey does conform to yours, but yes I would rake your eyes & poke the soft tissue or hole of your throat (Lien Chuan). The monkey style that use relys elusive footwork yes, but our tactics include moves to distract / blind an opponent.
Monkeys are mean, backstabbing, mischivious and annoying little animals that can not go toe to toe with a tiger. They prefer to sneak up from behind grab his balls and run.

Ginosifu:p

[rogue]

I am sorry if you guys mis interpreted my statement. It was a hypthetical situation that could have happened at any school.

Darn that Chuck Liddell dropping into TMA schools and attacking people. :eek:


Did any of you get the latest DVD of Fearless? The bonus section has a conversation with Jet Li and his words speak it all.

"There is no difinative one best style, only different levels of skill."

While I think Jet Li is a very gifted lesbian, I don't think he's the final authority on what's best. You do have to ask, different levels in what skills? I know people who are fearsome in forms work but don't know diddly about fighting even at the most basic level.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I am sorry If my Monkey does conform to yours, but yes I would rake your eyes & poke the soft tissue or hole of your throat (Lien Chuan). The monkey style that use relys elusive footwork yes, but our tactics include moves to distract / blind an opponent.
Monkeys are mean, backstabbing, mischivious and annoying little animals that can not go toe to toe with a tiger. They prefer to sneak up from behind grab his balls and run.

Ginosifu:p

You forgot to throw poo on him afterwards! I thought I taught you better than that. :D NEVER FORGET THE POO! :eek:

I have a feeling the name of the next thread by the MMA crowd will be THE MYTH OF THE EYE RAKE AND BALL GRAB. LOL!

[Mr Punch]

I would have use monkey and gauge his eyes ...You're going to test his eyes with a monkey? Is it a very small monkey? Oh, I get it, while he's looking at the eye chart with the monkeys, then you sneak up behind him and grab his nuts. Flawless!
:rolleyes:

[Ravenshaw]

The reason why Traditional Masters don't enter the UFC?

Because they'd probably cease to be Traditional Masters. Traditional MA's are in the UFC, right now. Only, they've adapted to their particular needs, and scrapped some traditions along the way. It's why many TCMA'ers rag on UFC, and MMA'ers rag on TCMA'ers.

Simple as that.

Do you mean that you can't be "traditional" and fight full-contact?

[mattb]

Since when does one need any training to poke someone in the eye and run away?
And who said the Three Stooges weren't educational? ;)

[SifuAbel]

I am sorry If my Monkey does conform to yours, but yes I would rake your eyes & poke the soft tissue or hole of your throat (Lien Chuan). The monkey style that use relys elusive footwork yes, but our tactics include moves to distract / blind an opponent.
Monkeys are mean, backstabbing, mischivious and annoying little animals that can not go toe to toe with a tiger. They prefer to sneak up from behind grab his balls and run.

Ginosifu:p
If we were fighting tigers I'd agree with you. But were're not. We are fighting other monkies. Humans; to be exact.

Make no mistake, as far as monkies go, I AM the biggest son of a ***** on the planet. I will do ANYTHING and everything I can if need be. But I don't depend on being the small monkey. And thats the point. If all you got is the soft, then you may not get through the hard.

The eye gouge/throat strike is a panacea if used as a sole strategy. While I'm not above using such a technique, its not the basis of my entire style. Your style should be much bigger than that.

[rogue]

Make no mistake, as far as monkies go, I AM the biggest son of a ***** on the planet.

May I ask how you got that title? The planet is a pretty big place.

BTW William F. Buckley, it's spelled "monkeys" not "monkies".:D

[ginosifu]

Make no mistake, as far as monkies go, I AM the biggest son of a ***** on the planet. I will do ANYTHING and everything I can if need be. But I don't depend on being the small monkey. And thats the point. If all you got is the soft, then you may not get through the hard.

The eye gouge/throat strike is a panacea if used as a sole strategy. While I'm not above using such a technique, its not the basis of my entire style. Your style should be much bigger than that.

Yes this is correct SifuAbel, they are only the the first in bombardment of other attacks. They can be reguarded like set ups for more powerful techniques. Our Monkey includes elbows, kness, shuai jiao, iron palm, low sweeps and rolls. The Angry Monkey is like any Kung Fu system with long range / short range punches and kicks, grabbing and Throws.

What some of you guys did was take a comment that I made hypotheticaly and as a fun light hearted attempt to make a joke (at myself), and get all wound up about it. I made it only to get a point across that the venue (or rules) may play a role in who will have the advantage in given match.

My main reason for posting here was to bring to light that you guys are not using this forum productivly. You guys bash everyone (even me), instead of helping or informing each other.

Also there is alot of things said and posted to "YouTube" that are disrespectful and Not Appropriate according to some GM's and I get an earful from these GM's complaining that you guys should'nt be doing what your doing.

Well, I am done spying on you guys. MOSt of the threads and posts here are a waste of time. I can see everyone is into their own agenda and there is no future here.

Ginosifu :p

[rogue]

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.:p

[Knifefighter]

If we were fighting tigers I'd agree with you. But were're not. We are fighting other monkies. Humans; to be exact.

LOL... unless you are hanging out in the zoo, not too many people are fighting monkeys... mostly it's other people.

By the same token, people are not monkeys... or bugs, or dragons, or tigers, or any of the other myriad of things CMA practioners think they are supposed to imitate when fighting.

[MasterKiller]

BTW William F. Buckley, it's spelled "monkeys" not "monkies".:D Not in the ghetto.

[JDK]

You guys really like to argue. This topic has been rolled and rerolled a zillion times (can I say Zillion?).

Why don't you take all of you biast attitudes and self absorbed styles and get a life!

Take a great MMA fighter like Chuck Ludell, if was to come to my school and fight me, I would have use monkey and gauge his eyes and pokes to his throat. I would also run around alot since there is no Octogon to pin me up against. If he would catch me or put me in a choke I might be thru. The only true thing you can say is the guy who trains the most in his given style will most likely be thr winner.

My finall word for everyone is The best style in the world is:

THE ONE YOU LOVE AND PRACTICE THE MOST

Ginosifu :p

You are kidding right?

Do you think if anyMonkey Style practioner on the Planet thought he could contend wih Liddel, he would have entered the UFC years ago and brought immediate credibility to himself, his school,and his Teacher...by gouging and poking???? MANY have tried that , and similiar technigues on Chuck L and others in the UFC..only to find themslves knocked out or submitted.

I think the UFC's 13 year record of Good Strikers who can sprawl and Grapple, along with applying and escaping Jujitu holds...is a long enogh time for someone to have stepped forward with their Monkey Style ( which I do like, I remember reading my first article on Paulie Zink years ago and was intrigued by the Style)
and won or placed in at least ONE of the UFC EVENTS! Dont YOU ???

Liddel and anyone in the top 15 UFC Fighters would kill you in less than 5 minutes...if that long. In the Octagon, your School, or on the Street.


Please remember the Title if this Thread is Let's Be Real

Thank you...sorry for being so direct

JD

[Yao Sing]

...is a long enogh time for someone to have stepped forward with their Monkey Style ( which I do like, I remember reading my first article on Paulie Zink years ago and was intrigued by the Style)

Paulie Zink is a proven fake, poor choice there.

So, Let's Be Real. What would you do if Chuck showed up at your place looking to kick your butt?

We know what ginosifu would do (successful or not).

[PangQuan]

lol call the police and get my gun out :p

[Chief Fox]

This subject that no one wants to talk about has gone on for 10 pages. I think we're on to something.

Yes, it's been discussed time and time again but I think the usefulness of TMA in an MMA world needs to be discussed.

[PangQuan]

It is the current generations that are alive today that will wittness current events and make decisions based on these events. These decisions will directly effect the near future generations.


Today more than ever, you find people involved in TMA who are wittnessing the surge of the past many years of the MMA climax.

Many of these TMA'ers are converting over to MMA, or realizing that they need to add to their plate to have a full meal.

These current generations that are making the decisions will decide how TMA plays out in the next few decades.

My prediction:

With the vast introduction of eastern arts to the west in the past century, westerners are being directly associated with a large portion of the future of martial arts.

MMA cannot be ignored. Those with any understanding of fight evolution can see this.

These are the people with whom we can look to, to see the future of our martial arts.

Today is when the old meets the new. YinYang will be prevelent, as always.

MMA is quickly becoming a tradition of its own, with highly structured training facilities popping up around the world.

Much as every country adopted the use of fire, the wheel, firearms, electricity, etc...you can expect to see the introduction of more modern principles being inducted into many old traditions.

Does this mean that many old traditions will be lost? No. There will always be those who will preserve these traditions, and we should thank them.

For these people, who continue on the traditions of thier forefathers, give us the opportunity to united these old traditions with the new.

Thus the continued evolution of martial arts. Something that cannot be denied, nor should be.

This merging of old traditions with new by many of todays generations, will be your outlet to see the use of some older traditional ways in the ring.

However, with any form of evolution, the waste must be cut away, while the useful kept.

This is MMA.

MMA as i see it is still in its early stages of structure as a tradition. Many MMA people view traditional arts as wholey ineffective. Which is not the case. Some prominent MMA practitioners however, can see what is still usefull in many traditional arts.

These are the men and women whom we can look to, to insure the proper development of modernized martial arts.

To blindly view in any direction is still a blind view.

Effective is effective, regardless of its source.

as always, Truth, is the only thing that counts.

I for one lookforward to the coming years of martial arts development, until i die.


this will be my auto response for all topics concerning the future of CMA + MMA

[MonkeyKingUSA]

JDK wrote:
Do you think if anyMonkey Style practioner on the Planet thought he could contend wih Liddel, he would have entered the UFC years ago and brought immediate credibility to himself, his school,and his Teacher...by gouging and poking???? MANY have tried that , and similiar technigues on Chuck L and others in the UFC..only to find themslves knocked out or submitted.


JKD,
Actually one of Gino's students is coming up through the ranks in UFC/Cage type fighting. So far I believe he is 2-1. Not a whirlwind yet, but off to a good start. Though I don't think he has gouged anyone's eyes out yet. :) But like I said, he has just started!

To the mockers,
Other than Gino, who here has accomplished this much in their fighting career? He is the current 5 time national Shuai-Chiao champion. In 1998 he took third place in the Paris world Shuai-Chiao Championships and fourth place in the 1997 Beijing world Shuai-Chiao Championships.

Anyone here the current 5 time national MMA champion. Anyone else here placed in a recognized world championship? Didn't think so.

And some of you think you are in a position to mock this man?????

[PangQuan]

is that what we can call a virtual b!tch slap?

[rogue]

Not in the ghetto.

Is this real enough ghetto?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3gG12aLgE0

I just love this video


BTW, Here's some real fighting for you who have never seen a real fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKfliPzCfTo&NR

[Mr Punch]

My main reason for posting here was to bring to light that you guys are not using this forum productivly. You guys bash everyone (even me), instead of helping or informing each other.

Well, I am done spying on you guys. MOSt of the threads and posts here are a waste of time. I can see everyone is into their own agenda and there is no future here.Dayum. I feel honoured to have had this insight shared with me. :rolleyes: 'US GUYS' are not using the forum productively? And you come here to lecture us on it by posting on a waste of time rehashed thread, instead of contributing to some of the many many useful threads we have round here? Congratulations!


What some of you guys did was take a comment that I made hypotheticaly and as a fun light hearted attempt to make a joke (at myself), and get all wound up about it. I made it only to get a point across that the venue (or rules) may play a role in who will have the advantage in given match.What you did was to make a stupid comment that didn't convey the point you say you wanted to make, and then got in a tizz because people laughed at you! If it was a joke, good! You've sure got people laughing, but you might wanna be careful because it's very difficult to express your tone clearly on the net. But nobody here's wound up (except maybe Sifu Abel, but he always is! :D ).

The rules sure do play a role in who has the advantage, but 1) when everybody knows and trains for those rules there is no advantage, and 2) the eye gouges were allowed and did nobody any good (or rather did nobody any harm!), and 3) if you can't wrestle, you can't get position to gouge (do a search for early American bareknuckle fighting history: I think it's on the Journal of Manly Arts site - lots of people lost eyes, but those people were ferociously well-rounded brawlers). These are time-proven points.


To the mockers,
Other than Gino, who here has accomplished this much in their fighting career? He is the current 5 time national Shuai-Chiao champion. In 1998 he took third place in the Paris world Shuai-Chiao Championships and fourth place in the 1997 Beijing world Shuai-Chiao Championships.
Who cares! If a man's talking **** he's talking ****! :D So Gino has a good record and could probably take me apart, so what? How many people has he used eye gouges on in the ring or out?

[Mr Punch]

I've been meaning to point this out for some time, but George Bush is not saving my ass.

:p ;) :D

[Ravenshaw]

Also there is alot of things said and posted to "YouTube" that are disrespectful and Not Appropriate according to some GM's and I get an earful from these GM's complaining that you guys should'nt be doing what your doing.

Which GMs? Is the problem sharing information? All of my teachers have been very open with their knowledge.

[Knifefighter]

J He is the current 5 time national Shuai-Chiao champion. In 1998 he took third place in the Paris world Shuai-Chiao Championships and fourth place in the 1997 Beijing world Shuai-Chiao Championships.
And his only defense would be using monkey kung fu to jab his eyes out and run away?
What happened to all the deadly throwing people on their heads and breaking their necks?

[SevenStar]

What some of you guys did was take a comment that I made hypotheticaly and as a fun light hearted attempt to make a joke (at myself), and get all wound up about it. I made it only to get a point across that the venue (or rules) may play a role in who will have the advantage in given match.

valid point. Here's a valid answer. You're into mma somewhat - do you remember the fight between gerrard gordeau and yuki nakai? gordeau was knuckle deep in nakai's eye, and nakai STILL beat him. Not only that, but he beat his next opponent as well. Where was the advantage?

[JDK]

Paulie Zink is a proven fake, poor choice there.

So, Let's Be Real. What would you do if Chuck showed up at your place looking to kick your butt?

We know what ginosifu would do (successful or not).

I would call 911 and take out my gun.
The law states that assault is illegal, and if I defended my self I TOO would be taken to Jail.
Plus...Liddel would kick my Butt. He is a highly trained UFC Champion, in his prime
while I am a TMA with some Western Boxing experience and Hung-gar training.

That is my intellect speaking................................on the other hand

IF MY PRIDE got ahold of me...I would fight him with all my strength and knowledge, and go 100% ...Id would still get my ass kicked, but at least I would have given it my best.

I personally think that the guy who eventually will beat Liddel is the fighter who can get him to the ground and choke him out.
We havn't SEEN that fighter yet...but he is out there. If not..LIDDEL will eventually get old and will lose to a younger , faster, hungrier fighter.

JD

[Ray Pina]

1) Everything you think you can do to the other guy he can do to you too... that includes digging his fingers into your eyes when he has you down, dropping a forearm on the base of your neck..... it is a two way street. Doesn't mean you can't go test how you compare with them under the same rules.

2) Sports have rules and rules are broken all the time. If you think you can evade competition quality striking and sink some dangerous move... go do it, get penalized a point and then win by KO in the next round? It's no different than guys covering their opponants mouth while in side control. They get warned, they move on.

3) If you don't like "sport" create your own event. I have stopped posting Throwdowns here because no Kung Fu guys show up to play. One guy from the forum showed up once to watch.

4) Cut the ****! You're not fooling anyone. Fighters know why non-fighters don't fight... we know why trained martial artists don't fight..... they're not fighters. We know you can kick and punch but we know we can do it better, meaner, with more intention. We know we'll kick your ass which is why we are eager to show up. Which is why we do show up. Likewise, nonfighters know they'll get their ass kicked. This is why they don't show up.

I admit I won't go surf 25 foot Pipeline. Not because I'm a free surfer. And not because I'm not skilled enough.... I'm scared and don't want to get really hurt or killed. I wouldn't want to fight Chuck Lidell for the hell of it for the same reason. Throw me a few grand and I'll do my best until he drops me:)

Be real with yourself! Because you're not fooling anyone else, just sounding like a tool.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I just watched a match between a TCMA "expert" and an experienced NHB fighter.. the evidence was convincing.. fighters train because it IS real, TCMA trains "as if" it were real.. a major difference of "intention".. the fighter has experience that he knows, experience that inspires him to not hold back, to move with clarity and intention.. most (not all) TCMA players uphold a certain code of "martial ethics", which i agree with, but.. one must know the difference between fighting and agreeing to appear to fight.. the difference is huge, i've done both.. Just keeping it real..

Be Well..

[SevenStar]

Greetings..

I just watched a match between a TCMA "expert" and an experienced NHB fighter.. the evidence was convincing.. fighters train because it IS real, TCMA trains "as if" it were real.. a major difference of "intention".. the fighter has experience that he knows, experience that inspires him to not hold back, to move with clarity and intention.. most (not all) TCMA players uphold a certain code of "martial ethics", which i agree with, but.. one must know the difference between fighting and agreeing to appear to fight.. the difference is huge, i've done both.. Just keeping it real..

Be Well..

Like I've said before, tma train for possibility, mma train for inevitability.

[JDK]

1) Everything you think you can do to the other guy he can do to you too... that includes digging his fingers into your eyes when he has you down, dropping a forearm on the base of your neck..... it is a two way street. Doesn't mean you can't go test how you compare with them under the same rules.

2) Sports have rules and rules are broken all the time. If you think you can evade competition quality striking and sink some dangerous move... go do it, get penalized a point and then win by KO in the next round? It's no different than guys covering their opponants mouth while in side control. They get warned, they move on.

3) If you don't like "sport" create your own event. I have stopped posting Throwdowns here because no Kung Fu guys show up to play. One guy from the forum showed up once to watch.

4) Cut the ****! You're not fooling anyone. Fighters know why non-fighters don't fight... we know why trained martial artists don't fight..... they're not fighters. We know you can kick and punch but we know we can do it better, meaner, with more intention. We know we'll kick your ass which is why we are eager to show up. Which is why we do show up. Likewise, nonfighters know they'll get their ass kicked. This is why they don't show up.

I admit I won't go surf 25 foot Pipeline. Not because I'm a free surfer. And not because I'm not skilled enough.... I'm scared and don't want to get really hurt or killed. I wouldn't want to fight Chuck Lidell for the hell of it for the same reason. Throw me a few grand and I'll do my best until he drops me:)

Be real with yourself! Because you're not fooling anyone else, just sounding like a tool.

BEST POST ON THIS TOPIC YET!!!!!!!!!! AMEN! FINALLY Ray Pina is Talking REAL!!!! THANK YOU RAY~

JD

[JDK]

I was watching a 2 year Old K1 Fight on ESPN last week,,and saw two fight by a welterweight named Kung -Lee.

He looked like he would make a good Octagon Fighter with the right training.

Anyone hear of him or know how he has progressed opver the lat 2 years.?

JD

[lkfmdc]

I was watching a 2 year Old K1 Fight on ESPN last week,,and saw two fight by a welterweight named Kung -Lee.

He looked like he would make a good Octagon Fighter with the right training.

Anyone hear of him or know how he has progressed opver the lat 2 years.?

JD

CUng Le? Who is that? Nah, no chance he could win an MMA fight! You don't get out much do you? ;)

[The Xia]

I was watching a 2 year Old K1 Fight on ESPN last week,,and saw two fight by a welterweight named Kung -Lee.

He looked like he would make a good Octagon Fighter with the right training.

Anyone hear of him or know how he has progressed opver the lat 2 years.?

JD
Cung Le is a great fighter. Check out these videos of him fighting in MMA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4QdFcWOwOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQk4DHwaxws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOySJ9bXWZg

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL... unless you are hanging out in the zoo, not too many people are fighting monkeys... mostly it's other people.

But why aren't we fighting monkeys?

They gave us AIDS, ebola....

I think it's time we struck back. They won't even see it coming!!

Let's hit 'em with syphilis, genital warts, and alcoholism!!! Let the very skies rain with their tears!!! Primate Armageddon!!! YEEEEEHHAAAAAWWW!!!!

[BlueTravesty]

Its not that CMA doesn't do well against MMA, it doesn't do anything against MMA.

but of course it would be a lie to say that you're against Chinese Martial Arts.