Martial Artist Values

[Raised by Swans]

We seem to spend alot of time debating history, lineage and technique, but I have yet see anyone discuss values (maybe it's because I'm new).

I know there's the standard boilerplate of honesty, respect, discipline that most schools try to instill to their students, but I think that after a certain amount of time, students must look deeper and transform those base values into more individualized values to make them more identifiable within their lives.

My questions are:

1. What values have the martial arts instilled in you as a person?
2. How do you carry these values out in your day-to-day lives?

Since I'm asking, it's only fair that I answer.

1. At my kwoon we teach five core values: effort, etiquette, sincerity, self control and character. I've boiled them down to two things: 1. personal responsibility and 2. social responsibility

2. In my day-to-day life I practice personal responsibility at work and in my personal relationships by executing tasks giving to me and delegating to others when I feel something is beyond my realm of expertise as well as openly admitting when I make mistakes as well as accepting praise when I do something well.

Currently, I'm a grad student, so my job is learning and adding to the body of knowledge in my current field which is Industrial Design focusing on ecological design and healthcare design. I feel both of these concentrations offer valid benefits to making society better. I also feel that I would not have entered into this field without honest analysis and transformation of my martial arts values into my daily life.

My questions and my curiosity stand.

[BruceSteveRoy]

Twelve Rules of the Shaolin Temple

1. Never take advantage of woman, children, or others.
2. Never commit a crime.
3. Never behave conceitedly.
4. Never teach another person without direct permission from Sifu.
5. Never be involved with drugs, alcohol, or in causing trouble.
6. Never hurt or maim another person.
7. Never befriend a bad or evil person.
8. Never disrespect or be rude to your seniors, even behind their backs.
9. Never bully another person.
10. Never brag or lie about your skill.
11. Never forget your duties because of money.
12. Never forget your righteous virtue because of temptation.


Twelve Rules of the Hung Fut School

1. Never laugh or talk loudly, make noise, or behave foolishly during class.
2. Never form cliques within the school.
3. Never tease another student or ridicule other people, schools, or systems of martial arts.
4. Never ignore a problem if something happens in the school.
5. Never make decisions for the school without discussing them with the school. These decisions include demonstrations and participating in tournaments.
6. Never damage equipment or property of the school.
7. Never teach another without Sifu's direct permission or practice techniques you have never been taught.
8. Never come to class unless you come for kung fu.
9. Always respect Sifu and his instructors.
10. Always respect and help other students.
11. Always study and practice kung fu seriously.
12. Always respect and abide by the rules of the school and kung fu.

i may not always be the best rule follower but i think these rules help in character development as well as discipline. some are common sense rules others you have to remind yourself of sometimes.

as for what CMA has taught me i would say it has taught me to look at myself more objectively and more introspectively. i am able to analyze what i am doing starting with my physical actions and working backwards through my intent to my cognition. its interesting. the next logical step, of course, would be to apply these perspectives to effecting a positive change but i am not quite there yet. i still can pinpoint many of my flaws and weaknesses but am struggling to overcome them. perhaps if the MA had never been there i wouldn't have even realized i had theflaws and weaknesses or had a need to overcome them.

[Eddie]

8. Never come to class unless you come for kung fu.


Really?! :eek: in our school, members can come over any time, and often even spend weekend nights hanging around the school. Keeps them of the street, and keep them away from the evils of this world. The school becomes more than a social hang out, it becomes a second home to kids who more than often have all sorts of other problems at their own houses. ;)

[BruceSteveRoy]

i wouldn't say that people don't come and hang out. i think this is there just so people understand that the people that are there are, by and large, are there to train. it discourages people from distracting others from their training. i dunno i think a. it helps people take the training seriously and b. because the classes are so big it keeps things organized. just like the not talking or goofing off rule. if everyone were talking and goofing off then it would be complete chaos. that isn't to say there is no talking. but if it gets out of hand it can be pointed out that there actually is a rule against it. if that makes sense. my mind is kind of all over the place today.

anyway this is just my interpretation of the rule and in no way reflects the feelings, thoughts or opinions of my school. simply an observation.

and if there was a situation that people need to come hang out at the school they might as well get in there and train. training=fun.

[desertkruzr]

As a teenager, I was a very troubled kid. I started doing drugs at 13. By the time that I was 14, I was dealing drugs. At 15, I was robbing houses to support my habit. At 16, I got into martial arts and Chinese philosophy, and got out of the life of drugs and crime.

I have traveled around a lot since then, and lived in a lot of places around the country. Because of that, I have come and gone at a lot of different martial arts schools. But I always maintain my own practice with some type of martial arts and meditation.

What I have gained from the various spiritual teachings and martial arts, as well as the healing systems that I have connected with through all of those studies has been priceless. Had I not found this stuff at 16, I would most likely be dead or in prison right now for sure.

For me, it has become not so much about following an outer set of rules (although they can be important as well), but more about developing my own set of inner ethics based on solidly understood spiritual principles.

Eddie, that's a really good point that you made. I knew a guy that ran a Wing Chun school that was in a somewhat bad nieghborhood. He always encouraged his students to hang out at the school even if there wasn't a formal class going on for the same reasons that you mentioned. Some would end up doing Chi Sao or some other drill with each other, and others would just hang out and watch Kung Fu movies on the school's VCR, or whatever. But it kept them off the streets, and away from trouble.

[Su Lin]

As well as club rules and etiquette ,training has made me look at the way I live my life and changed it a lot too. It's not just the physical nature of the training which has made me change,such as the healthy eating and the not drinking ,but this has led to me questioning why I may drink or eat badly . In turn this has led to looking at the whole of my life - looking at the way I treat others and also has calmed me down a lot recently.
Training with people I respect and get along with has taught me the value of the friendship we have in our kwoon and also to trust them too.
I think I have generally just become more level headed and think about my actions much more, in order to develop my training and my fitness.
I think it is more or less impossible to train in kung fu/martial arts on a regular basis and not have the school values and the nature of your training seep into your every day life and change it in fundamental ways.:)

[SevenStar]

this is one of those topics where everyone's thoughts will vary. I, for example am of the thought that it's really not the duty of the martial art in question to instill any values at all, moral or philosophical. I train martial arts to learn how to fight. Anything else is beyond the scope of my mission. Sure, I know the history of the arts I train, but not because we discuss them in class. Sure, I have moral values, but not because I learned them while kicking thai pads or practicing harai goshi. They are societal and were taught by my family. THAT it where the ultimate responsibility should be. Yes, training groups can be close knit like a family, but at the end of the day, teaching values is not their job.

Another thing to not here is that some things are self taught once you begin training. A ****y person who trains in an art that involves plenty of sparring will become humbled, as for each person he beats, he knows that there are others who will beat him just the same. This feeling is intensified if the student ever starts competing.

Gaining strength can also teach compassion. I squat almost 450lbs and have broken someone's ribs with a roundhouse kick. I KNOW what I can do to someone else who trains, let alone someone much weaker than me, doesn't know how to defend, etc. This consequently teaches you a respect for your own skill and what you are capable of.

[syn]

As cliche as these will sound

Defend the weak in dire situation
Don't talk about people not there (insultingly)
Respect your elders, BUT realize they are human, and are not justified by divine law to do what ever they want
Begin all relationships with utmost respect
Know you sorroundings
Know yourself



I guess these are more morals/laws tied together.

[SPJ]

My questions are:

1. What values have the martial arts instilled in you as a person?
2. How do you carry these values out in your day-to-day lives?



1. mostly discipline, focus, perserverance, diligence, compassion, ---

Kung Fu practice makes you aware of your physical capabilities, strong points and weakness. Kung Fu practice not only "builds" your body but also "molds" your character.

on and on.

2. I personally think you need a moral code or religion for your daily interaction with others. Daoism, confusciuism, budhhism etc.

Your world view or general view about life and others.

--

[SevenStar]

As cliche as these will sound

Defend the weak in dire situation
Don't talk about people not there (insultingly)
Respect your elders, BUT realize they are human, and are not justified by divine law to do what ever they want
Begin all relationships with utmost respect
Know you sorroundings
Know yourself



I guess these are more morals/laws tied together.

here's where cliche can get you hurt. you see a man and woman arguing. the man hits the woman. You beat up the man, trying to defend the weak. They both call the police on you, because you just beat up the woman's husband. you go to jail, as he pressed charges against you, and she pressed none against him.

[BruceSteveRoy]

not to get away from the topic but that reminds me of a funny story. when i was in college i was outside of my dorm with a bunch of friends and this guy and girl (both were noticably drunk) were apparently arguing and she tried to storm off but the guy grabbed her arm and shook her and then started cursing at her and it looked like he was getting ready to hit her. so i started moving towards them to try to break them up. i got about half way to them and the girl kicked the guys @ss. she hit him in the stomach and then pushed him backwards over a bench called him a punk bittch and went inside. so we we all went back to what we were doing bc she clearly had it covered. i think the guy got hauled off by campus police a little bit later for banging loudly on her front door and yelling profanities. it was a funny night. i miss college.

[SevenStar]

Coincidentally, rogue told me a story about an ex doing the exact same thing to him. He said that girl is the very reason he got into MA...

[mantis108]

Well, I don't think it's healthy to confuse moral codes with philosophy. I believe as long as you have a plan or structure for training, there is philosophy (reasoning) involved. The reason to develop a street survival skill set (to maim or to kill) is different from the the reason to develop a honorable duel skill set (knock out or submission) although you might be able to get away with just one skill set and/or one favorable fight ender choice (dictated by the moral code) in either case.

There is no really philosophy in street brawl. That's why it is pure fighting. There is no point to make sense of non sensible violence against you. It's usually nothing personal. It's business (ie some punks wanted their next coke fix so they rob you).

But honorable duel (ie UFC, MMA bouts, TKD kick fest, Taiji Push hand contest, etc) ; however, brawlish or ritual rite it may seem, it's more about battles of the wits and hearts. A reasonable structure (pun intend) is usually involved. That's what makes these martial arts. If you ask me who I think is one of the greatest martial artists of modern time, I will have to say it's has to be Mohammad Ali. He literally can turn the business of Boxing into a battle of the Cresent (Muslin symbol/the left hook) and the Cross (Christian symbol/the right hand cross) in an eloquent and poetic manner. ;) Without philiosophy there is not art IMHO.

Mantis108

[dougadam]

Twelve Rules of the Shaolin Temple

1. Never take advantage of woman, children, or others.
2. Never commit a crime.
3. Never behave conceitedly.
4. Never teach another person without direct permission from Sifu.
5. Never be involved with drugs, alcohol, or in causing trouble.
6. Never hurt or maim another person.
7. Never befriend a bad or evil person.
8. Never disrespect or be rude to your seniors, even behind their backs.
9. Never bully another person.
10. Never brag or lie about your skill.
11. Never forget your duties because of money.
12. Never forget your righteous virtue because of temptation.


Twelve Rules of the Hung Fut School

1. Never laugh or talk loudly, make noise, or behave foolishly during class.
2. Never form cliques within the school.
3. Never tease another student or ridicule other people, schools, or systems of martial arts.
4. Never ignore a problem if something happens in the school.
5. Never make decisions for the school without discussing them with the school. These decisions include demonstrations and participating in tournaments.
6. Never damage equipment or property of the school.
7. Never teach another without Sifu's direct permission or practice techniques you have never been taught.
8. Never come to class unless you come for kung fu.
9. Always respect Sifu and his instructors.
10. Always respect and help other students.
11. Always study and practice kung fu seriously.
12. Always respect and abide by the rules of the school and kung fu.

i may not always be the best rule follower but i think these rules help in character development as well as discipline. some are common sense rules others you have to remind yourself of sometimes.

as for what CMA has taught me i would say it has taught me to look at myself more objectively and more introspectively. i am able to analyze what i am doing starting with my physical actions and working backwards through my intent to my cognition. its interesting. the next logical step, of course, would be to apply these perspectives to effecting a positive change but i am not quite there yet. i still can pinpoint many of my flaws and weaknesses but am struggling to overcome them. perhaps if the MA had never been there i wouldn't have even realized i had theflaws and weaknesses or had a need to overcome them.

Great post :)

[David Jamieson]

Although I have gotten value out of training, It's not where I formed my values.

I see this kind of addition to be beneficial for childrens classes where uprightness and moral strength is a useful thing to instill in a child who does not yet have that.

But these lessons are mostly moot on an adult mind and often are insulting. By the time a person is adult, they should understand good vs bad in their own behaviour and how they interact with others.

Telling someone something they already know is a waste of time and tends to make one look more like a pompous ass than a good teacher regardless of the intention.

for kids : yes

for adults : better to keep the morality tales and whatnot to yourself. If ythey don't get it when they come in, then they will likely never get it, barring traumatic experience ingraining it to them.

as for the whole confucian filial piety stuff, that doesn't wash so well quite often as well and serves up a lot of contradictions as well. I would also add that people who didn't come up in a given culture and then trying to dole out morality and values lessons about a certain culture more often than not comes across as contrived and empty.

I know that might sound negative, but in my opinion, values are learned at home, in school and through the social construct. If people don't know not to abuse martial ability against the weak, then they are and likely will always be idiots and perhaps shouldn't be shown anything of real value? :)

[mantis108]

Although I have gotten value out of training, It's not where I formed my values.

I see this kind of addition to be beneficial for childrens classes where uprightness and moral strength is a useful thing to instill in a child who does not yet have that.

But these lessons are mostly moot on an adult mind and often are insulting. By the time a person is adult, they should understand good vs bad in their own behaviour and how they interact with others.

Telling someone something they already know is a waste of time and tends to make one look more like a pompous ass than a good teacher regardless of the intention.

for kids : yes

for adults : better to keep the morality tales and whatnot to yourself. If ythey don't get it when they come in, then they will likely never get it, barring traumatic experience ingraining it to them.

as for the whole confucian filial piety stuff, that doesn't wash so well quite often as well and serves up a lot of contradictions as well. I would also add that people who didn't come up in a given culture and then trying to dole out morality and values lessons about a certain culture more often than not comes across as contrived and empty.

I know that might sound negative, but in my opinion, values are learned at home, in school and through the social construct. If people don't know not to abuse martial ability against the weak, then they are and likely will always be idiots and perhaps shouldn't be shown anything of real value? :)

David,

OH, So let there be Hockey day in Canada?! (sorry about the rant aganist the stupid CBC bombardment of Hockey is Canadian culture freak'n BS)

No offense, I understand where you coming from but between a good dose of "confucian filial piety stuff" and you must worship Hockey or else you are not a "Canadian", I choose Cofucian value in Kung Fu through and through. Sorry man, I just find that honing a cultural identity with the intend to become a better person is way more important than learning some suppose skill set through playing some games that is package with all the worst physche (class divisive industrial military complex) of the country but dressed up in heroic costume.

Hockey is the root of all evil for this country. :(

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[Royal Dragon]

I think the values combined wiht Kung Fu comes from temple systems who were trying to use Kung Fu teachings as a vehicle to spread their philosophies.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I just study MA for the chicks (the fit ones).

Seriously, though, don't tell my girlfriend.......

Kung-fu is useless against jealous women.