I'm in my teacher's new Lian Bu Quan DVD!

[Hau Tien]

I was recently asked to help Mr. Rovere out with his new DVD (Secret Fighting Skills of the Chinese Military: Lesson 1) and thought I'd post a link to a short video clip from it (you can watch Mr. Rovere kick and punch me and another training partner around a bunch :P I'm the "lucky" guy up first who gets it in the groin. It's ok, I don't want kids. :P )

Link to the clip is here: http://www.rovere.com/movie/lssn1.m1v
More info on the video (and Mr. Rovere, of course) is available at http://www.rovere.com/videos.html#lbc

Cheers!

[Ravenshaw]

I've read some articles by your teacher in the past. I'd be very interested in learning more about the military aspect of Lin Bo (see my recently-resurrected topic in the Shaolin forum). The applications themselves don't look bad, but something about the way he does them... he's purposefully breaking it down to demonstrate? It suffers from the attacker who throws one half-hearted punch and then stands there while the teacher has fun.

[Hau Tien]

I've read some articles by your teacher in the past. I'd be very interested in learning more about the military aspect of Lin Bo (see my recently-resurrected topic in the Shaolin forum). The applications themselves don't look bad, but something about the way he does them... he's purposefully breaking it down to demonstrate? It suffers from the attacker who throws one half-hearted punch and then stands there while the teacher has fun.

From the second link above:

Lesson 1: Training overview.
Authentic WWII Chinese commando combatives. Overview of forging post training; two man conditioning exercises; form demonstrations; <b>combat applications from the form</b>.

It's showing specific applications from the form. Obviously one wouldn't consider that "full speed or intent". (for which I am eternally thankful)

[YouKnowWho]

Why it's called "Lian Bu Quan"?

[Ravenshaw]

I'll give it a shot...

lian/lin - continuous or linked
bu/bo - step, stance, footwork
chuan/kuen - literally fist, but in this context refers to a martial arts set

So, we could call it the "continuous stepping form" or, more loosely, "practice footwork." As the name implies, we use it in BSL as an introductory set to practice smooth footwork and the coordination of feet, body, and hands. Basically, practicing using the footwork to drive the various techniques. I hear it was adopted by the Chinese military at some point because it's simple and they could use it to teach some basic techniques.

Here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12351)'s Gene's thread on the movement names, and here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23713)'s a thread about it's history.

Edit: Heh. Gene's lyric thread lists the same translation I had above. Cool.

[lkfmdc]

I'm shocked by the crass commercialism of this post, selling a product!

I am going to start a poll condeming this post

Then I'm going to get all upset and leave the forum

(none of the above are true, I'm being sarcastic)

TTT..... Mr Rovere does good stuff :D

[YouKnowWho]

lian/lin - continuous or linked
bu/bo - step, stance, footwork
chuan/kuen - literally fist, but in this context refers to a martial arts set.
Thanks for the explanation. What's the relationship between this DVD and Lian Bu Chuan? Does this DVD show the application in Lian Bu Chuan?

[Ravenshaw]

Thanks for the explanation. What's the relationship between this DVD and Lian Bu Chuan? Does this DVD show the application in Lian Bu Chuan?

No idea. That's a question for the OP. Though it might be interesting to get this video and compare it with my teacher's DVD (http://www.wle.com/products/VSL01D.html) of the same set. That one is more about the choreography and a little on application, whereas Rovere's point of view is analyzing military training techniques.

Then one could bring Yang Jwing Ming's version (http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/video/external/lian_bu_quan) into the study for yet another perspective.

[YouKnowWho]

Your teacher's Lian Bu Chuan is very sharp and smooth.

I think the difference between your teacher's form and Dr. Yang's form was at the end of that form, Dr. Yang's teacher's teacher GM Han Chin-Tang changed the 2nd double palms striking into a right reverse horizontal punch.

[img=http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7468/lianbuchuanur4.th.jpg] (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lianbuchuanur4.jpg)

[Hau Tien]

I'm shocked by the crass commercialism of this post, selling a product!

I am going to start a poll condeming this post

Then I'm going to get all upset and leave the forum

(none of the above are true, I'm being sarcastic)

TTT..... Mr Rovere does good stuff :D

hahah... I suppose it is a wee bit of a commercial post... but I was mainly excited at being in the new DVD :)

I've passed on questions and comments to Mr. Rovere (and he does read the threads every once in a while). He can certainly answer them better than I can in regards to LBQ as a form.

Cheers!

Scott/Hau Tien

[Knifefighter]

Here are the problems with the techniques shown on that clip.

- Punching someone in the hand when they attack you with a knife.
That and those follow up techniques against the knife will more than likely get you gutted even if the knife guy doesn't know what he is doing.

- Dropping both hands down into the opponent's knee when he brings it up compeletly opens up one's head and face.

- The chopping backhands will do nothing unless you are twice as big as your opponent.


Somehow, I doubt you guys are sparring this stuff full contact.

Wearing combat fatigue pants does not make it a combat style.

[lkfmdc]

Here are the problems with the techniques shown on that clip.


I'm not going to debate your points KF, you're probably right on the money with most (well, I KNOW you are right about the double hand blocking the knee thing) but for what it is worth, I'd give Revere a little room and some respect.

A lot of what he is doing is preserving various historical methods. The use of Lien Bo Quan to train Chinese military forces is a historical fact, and here he's reproducing that curriculum. Not everything I've seen in historical fencing or Western combat books is "state of the art" or even practical, but we preserve that stuff because it's history

Revere also studied and trained with the "Gung Ahn" or the Chinese equivalent of the SWAT team.... tough guys who use their skills every day. I"m sure, know for a fact, that Revere has a lot of stuff to offer the world, don't jump on him too hard

[Knifefighter]

A lot of what he is doing is preserving various historical methods. The use of Lien Bo Quan to train Chinese military forces is a historical fact, and here he's reproducing that curriculum.
Not everything I've seen in historical fencing or Western combat books is "state of the art" or even practical, but we preserve that stuff because it's history
He is calling it "Secret Fighting Skills of the Chinese Military". He is not calling it "Historical Techniques of the Chinese Military".

The first title implies that one is going to learn secret techniques that will make a person a good fighter. Going by what is shown on that clip, one will not only probably not become a good fighter, but he will probably increase his chances of getting killed if he is attacked with a blade or someone who has half a clue about how to fight with knees in the clinch.



Revere also studied and trained with the "Gung Ahn" or the Chinese equivalent of the SWAT team.... tough guys who use their skills every day. I"m sure, know for a fact, that Revere has a lot of stuff to offer the world, don't jump on him too hard
He was a police officer? Was he on the SWAT team? Or was it that he occassionally worked out with some guys who were on the SWAT team?

[GeneChing]

I wonder why, Ravenshaw, I wonder why...;)

I've been getting into LBK again lately. I used to by bored by it because it was so rudimentary, but I've been enjoying sprinkling some xingyi energy into it. Plus I learned a basic jingang form a while ago, a preparatory form for mizong (http://www.martialartsmart.net/prtc010.html), which worked the Grabbing hand, hammer strike technique, so I got to thinking about it again.

lkfmdc, I like your comment about preserving history. I'd add that in fencing, the modern sport has changed dramatically. For example, and few fencers still understand this, historic fencing took into consideration the angle of the blade. Since most people were fencing with blades that were essentially a flattened-diamond cross section, the angle of the blade - flat vs. edge - had a dramatic effect on the physics of your application, not only in blade on blade actions, but also simple ideas like penetration of the rib cage. Of course, this has all been discarded in the modern game. I suppose you could propound the same argument for traditional hand combat, although that might be more challenging and it'll surely lead to the ol' 'my techniques are too deadly for MMA' nonsense.

[rovere]

Hau tien sent me an e-mail and suggested I should jump in and at least respond to the comments.

First of all let me say, all I am presenting is historical 'stuff' relating to my interest in "military combatives" or whatever you want to classify it as. The LBQ was used at Changsha as part of the 3 stage close combat training of the commandos. (My teachers wife, a major in the chinese army taught with WLS and was also a sentior student of Du shen Wu.) So pants aside, there is historical basis to what is being presented.

With regards to punching or striking the back of the hand, I have actually used that technique in a confrontation and broke the attacker's hand -- quite easy to do- especially with a folded hand and striking with the knuckles --whipping action. Also not much hand-eye co-ordination needed. (BTW I didn't get gutted.)

The double hand block for the knee strike actually turns the opponent sideways and off balance. As the person grabs the neck and tries to knee you; push down hard and turn his knee sideways as opposed to simply blocking.

The chest strike you see is actually to the throat -- of course you wouldn't know that since I didn't bother to include the voice over explanation to accompany it. because I have only a few students, I didn't think it prudent to go around hitting them full out in the throat -- you can run out of "attackers" quickly and have no one left to train with.

Hope this addresses some of your concerns/criticisms.

[Knifefighter]

With regards to punching or striking the back of the hand, I have actually used that technique in a confrontation and broke the attacker's hand -- quite easy to do- especially with a folded hand and striking with the knuckles --whipping action. Also not much hand-eye co-ordination needed. (BTW I didn't get gutted.).
WOW!!!!

Another one!!!!

It's astounding how many CMA guys get attacked with knives!!!

And just as astounding as to how many of them break the attackers bones without receiving so much as a scratch!!!

[lkfmdc]

I don't want to hijack this thread Gene but the history of fencing provides a template for martial arts history and interpretation in general... hack and slash sword play on the battlefield evolved to thrust fencing in personal defense (and dules of personal honor). Methods changed as technology changed, and once prized theories were cast aside in the face of reality

[rovere]

Since several people posted while I was writing my first response, let me continue.

The series title 'secret fighting skills' was originally conceived as a tongue-in-cheek comment on what is happening in the MA world. If you actually watch my dvd's there is nothing in them presented as 'secret'. I think my explanations are straight forward and to the point and I try to explain the historical perspective as best I can given the circumstances. I just happen to like the 'military combatives' approach to the traditinal CMA. Let's get serious for a moment, who would have a real need for xingyi rifle and bayonet training in this day and age? But I wrote about it because

a. I have some knowledge of the subject and

b. A small group of people who deal with me also like that kind of thing

I try to present accurate information as shown to me from various sources including the modern 'knife stuff' from the wu jing.

take it for what it's worth. 'nuff said

[Knifefighter]

A fascinating book is "By the Sword" (can't remember the author's name). It is a hisorical analysis of the use of swords in combat. Mostly European based, but a little of Asian bladework is also thrown in there.

[rovere]

Since several people posted while I was writing my first response, let me continue.

The series title 'secret fighting skills' was originally conceived as a tongue-in-cheek comment on what is happening in the MA world. If you actually watch my dvd's there is nothing in them presented as 'secret'. I think my explanations are straight forward and to the point and I try to explain the historical perspective as best I can given the circumstances. I just happen to like the 'military combatives' approach to the traditinal CMA. Let's get serious for a moment, who would have a real need for xingyi rifle and bayonet training in this day and age? But I wrote about it because

a. I have some knowledge of the subject and

b. A small group of people who deal with me also like that kind of thing

I try to present accurate information as shown to me from various sources including the modern 'knife stuff' from the wu jing.

take it for what it's worth. 'nuff said

BTW About 15 years ago I used the xingyi bayonet techniques against a group of army instructors and had no trouble beating them

[lkfmdc]

Let's get serious for a moment, who would have a real need for xingyi rifle and bayonet training in this day and age?



There's a joke in there somewhere, but gosh darn it, I couldn't find it in enough time :)

Sorry for the side banter.... TTT

[Knifefighter]

BTW About 15 years ago I used the xingyi bayonet techniques against a group of army instructors and had no trouble beating them
Of course you easily beat guys with bayonets... it's all in the secret kung fu training techniques. All you kung fu "masters" regularly do that kind of stuff.

Of course there is never any video of you so-called "masters" going live against anyone you are claiming to have beaten... or going live against anyone, for that matter.

However, there is always plenty of video of you demonstrating your "lethal" techniques on complying students.

[GeneChing]

That was a good read. A better one is The Complete Bibliography of Fencing and Duelling by Carl A. Thimm. That's really more of a source point for any fencing research, but By the Sword covers the modern age much better and it's more digestible for the common reader.

Techniques have changed with shifts in technology and society. Logically then, they will continue to change in the future. The current 'reality' will probably fade too, if history is any teacher. This is one reason why we study history.

[lkfmdc]

I also believe that too many adhere to the myth that everyone fights the same. Maybe if KF stops attacking Revere for a minute he can comment, but I know that police train differently in different countries. In Japan with a blade culture they train differently than Americans that assume guns. Filipinos are a similar blade culture. And in the old UK, the head butt is a prominent feature of their bar fighting. :D

[Knifefighter]

I also believe that too many adhere to the myth that everyone fights the same. Maybe if KF stops attacking Revere for a minute he can comment, but I know that police train differently in different countries.
Really?
Do you actually believe the B.S. he is spewing about breaking knife attackers hands and beating military bayonet instructors?

After seeing that knee defense and his explanation of it?

[Hau Tien]

Of course you easily beat guys with bayonets... it's all in the secret kung fu training techniques. All you kung fu "masters" regularly do that kind of stuff.

Of course there is never any video of you so-called "masters" going live against anyone you are claiming to have beaten... or going live against anyone, for that matter.

However, there is always plenty of video of you demonstrating your "lethal" techniques on complying students.

It is very easy to be critical, sitting in front of a monitor with just under 3000 posts. It is another thing altogether to do it to someone's face. Your Forum-Fu is strong, "Knifefighter". I'd be curious to see if your ass can cash the cheques your "mouth" writes.

You're welcome to come on by any time you happen to be in Calgary to "check me out" and see if I know how to handle myself in real life. I'm nowhere near the level of Mr. Rovere, but I do enjoy crossing hands with as many folks as possible... you know... to "see if my **** works".

Also... I'd be very curious if you'd show us how it should be done, my friend! Post us up a short clip of you and put us all in awe of your martial prowess!

[rovere]

Both my teachers trained soldiers how to fight and also went "live" against the Japanese and Communists in the 1930's & 40's and you've done ???

[lkfmdc]

Before this gets any hotter... I honestly think you should all take it down a notch. Revere has a lot of training with military guys in China. Interesting stuff, stuff you don't see too often around here. For Hau and Revere, Knifefighter is no keyboard warrior. He's a legit BJJ black belt and a dog brother. He knows weapons, particularly blades. KF comes off harsh at times, but he's probably cute and cuddly in person (ok, maybe not) :D

KF, care to comment on the comment about different police in different cultures having to train differently

[Knifefighter]

Both my teachers trained soldiers how to fight and also went "live" against the Japanese and Communists in the 1930's & 40's and you've done ???
I don't know what your teachers did or did not do. However, they are not the ones on the video showing that B.S. cr@p knife stuff.

Your teachers going live in a war with weapons has absolutely nothing to do with anything you can do.

[Knifefighter]

Also... I'd be very curious if you'd show us how it should be done, my friend! Post us up a short clip of you and put us all in awe of your martial prowess!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwLFeIqjQ3Q (Clips)

Now for some clips of your "master" going live?

I won't hold my breath.

[Knifefighter]

KF, care to comment on the comment about different police in different cultures having to train differently
I think MMA.TV probably has a LEO Ground forum. That would be the place to get the best answers for that. I'm betting most officers will tell you that all LEO unarmed hand to hand training is pretty limited unless the officers are training on their own.

[Hau Tien]

Before this gets any hotter... I honestly think you should all take it down a notch. Revere has a lot of training with military guys in China. Interesting stuff, stuff you don't see too often around here. For Hau and Revere, Knifefighter is no keyboard warrior. He's a legit BJJ black belt and a dog brother. He knows weapons, particularly blades. KF comes off harsh at times, but he's probably cute and cuddly in person (ok, maybe not) :D

KF, care to comment on the comment about different police in different cultures having to train differently

It's great that he's a BJJ guy. His art style isn't of any consequence to me whatsoever. Also, I wasn't "challenging him to a fight to the death", obviously... If he's skilled then I'm even MORE eager to roll with him and see what he knows.

My point is that with 3000 posts (many of them inflammatory), it's an easy thing to sit back and be a ***** without knowing the first thing about the person you're being a ***** to. It's not like Dennis is some unknown or that his "lineage" or even his course material is questionable. It's a standard case of "I'm on the Internet and can say whatever I want with no fear of consequence and very little chance of ever having to back up what I say". Regardless of his real life skill, that STILL makes him a keyboard warrior ;)

My offer still stands... If you're in Cowtown in the future I'm definitely up for crossing hands. At the worst, I get to see how it's "really done", right? So what's to lose? :)

[Hau Tien]

Wait wait wait... you're posting a clip of you sport fighting?!?

Hahahahah... alright man. You sure showed me.

Cheers!

[Knifefighter]

Wait wait wait... you're posting a clip of you sport fighting?!?
Hahahahah... alright man. You sure showed me.
Cheers!
Anxiously awaits non-sport, full-contact "combat" fighting clips from yet more kung fu clowns.

Of which there are NEVER any.

Yawn...

[lkfmdc]

oh well, at least I tried.......

[Knifefighter]

It's not like Dennis is some unknown or that his "lineage" or even his course material is questionable.
How does someone being "known" or having lineage have anything to do with the fact that what was shown on that video was BS?

[Hau Tien]

How does someone being "known" or having lineage have anything to do with the fact that what was shown on that video was BS?

You're the man, cool guy. See you at the beach. Enjoy your trolling ;)

[Yao Sing]

From a non-expert:

Punching the knife hand I think would be fine if you're going to run. I would expect a slashed forearm from that groin shot. I'd prefer to grab if I could to control and so I know exactly where it is at all times.

The 2 handed knee block in the clinch can be seen in any number of UFC fights (notably Rich Franklin's latest). Personally, I try to avoid having both hands in the same place whenever possible.

The elbow after the knee block seems a little weak, can't see it having much effect. I would go immediately to a throw over the left knee.

All in all not what I would do but I guess it depends on what you're used to and comfortable with. I'm sure my way feels awkward or not right to others.

Interesting none the less. I'm always up for different perspectives.

As far as police training, at least in this country, based on the guys I know they don't seem to get much. I think most get their training outside the job or learn as they go.

Just a thought, instead of the insults, bashing and challenges how about analyzing the moves in the clip. Pros? Cons? Defenses?

[Ravenshaw]

Gene, I think I originally got that translation from Justin.

Anyway, to try to bring some productivity to the thread, I wanted to ask Knifefighter what he considers good knife defense. Obviously, it's a ****ty situation to begin with, but if you had to, what could we consider some high-percentage techniques? I'm going to assume that Knifefighter's screen name reflects experience with the weapon.

Also, this is a question for everybody: How do you practice weapon defense? I've never done much in CMA classes, only escrima. I'm interested in hearing some different methods...

[David Jamieson]

Knife, you really need to lay off whatever drugs you're on dude. Holy jebas you are a negative hissy fit waiting to happen.

how does your liver feel with all that hatre and bile coursing through it?

If you really hate cma so much, why do you oput yourself into places like a kungfu forum?

your video clips that have been posted show you to be doing whatever it is that you think is good I guess. And that's cool, but your negative intionations are quite constant and all the time.


I am surprised at the amount of time Rovere has spent on this one form. kudos. you must really be comfortable with it back forth upside down by now. I've known this form for over 10 years now and still play it now and again. It indeed has good applications in it.

[Yao Sing]

For those of us that aren't familiar with this set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-xTb73wB7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dndU6SzYAE4

Also, Knifefighters link is bad.

[Golden Arms]

I just want to know when posting video on the internet became the indicator of if something has happened or not.

[Knifefighter]

Anyway, to try to bring some productivity to the thread, I wanted to ask Knifefighter what he considers good knife defense. Obviously, it's a ****ty situation to begin with, but if you had to, what could we consider some high-percentage techniques? I'm going to assume that Knifefighter's screen name reflects experience with the weapon.

Head over to the training for the street thread... maybe we can get some good discussions going over there
And hopefully the guys who don't train for real will stay out of it.


Also, this is a question for everybody: How do you practice weapon defense? I've never done much in CMA classes, only escrima. I'm interested in hearing some different methods...
Weapons defense should be practiced hard, as close to real as possible, and in a variety of situations from outside to close in to grappling to groundfighting.

[David Jamieson]

For those of us that aren't familiar with this set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-xTb73wB7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dndU6SzYAE4

Also, Knifefighters link is bad.

wow. although there are some similarities and some exact same moves, the version I learned is very different from those two and each of those is different from the other as well!

that's real interesting.

[SifuAbel]

And hopefully the guys who don't train for real will stay out of it.

BawahahhahahahahahahahPrissy Cheerleader

Gimme a D.............Gimme a U.............Gimme a M................Gimme a B.


What does it spell!!

Knifefighter!!!! Yeay!!!!


Edit: Ross has a soul after all. Like 13 year old kids don't curse?

[SifuAbel]

WOW!!!!

Another one!!!!

It's astounding how many CMA guys get attacked with knives!!!

And just as astounding as to how many of them break the attackers bones without receiving so much as a scratch!!!

And you must have 1000 scars on you.

Opps, never mind, they're just wrinkles.

[Yao Sing]

Head over to the training for the street thread... maybe we can get some good discussions going over there
And hopefully the guys who don't train for real will stay out of it.

Knifefighter wants his own thread now? How about his own forum, just for MMA talk. Then TCMA guys can get on and harass and insult him.

[lkfmdc]

Abel, this is supposed to be "family friendly" ..... edit or delete that post, there is enough you can do without resorting to that

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter wants his own thread now? How about his own forum, just for MMA talk. Then TCMA guys can get on and harass and insult him.
What a bunch of dumba$$ goofballs.

First you complain that there is not enough "meat and potatoes" discussion.

Then, when I start a thread based on something of substance for people who are actually practicing that aspect in a realistic manner, you b!tch about that.

God forbid there might be a discussion where you might actually learn something.

[SifuAbel]

StoolStander, of course we'd like to get info and discussion from people in the know.





........................Just not you.


Your posts reek of an overcompensating superiority/inferiority complex. You're an ass hole. You could be speaking the absolute truth, yet, your air still smells like ****.


Lets see YOUR live video of a real knife fight..............

[SifuAbel]

Abel, this is supposed to be "family friendly" ..... edit or delete that post, there is enough you can do without resorting to that

Ok, MoM. :rolleyes:

[Yao Sing]

What a bunch of dumba$$ goofballs.

First you complain that there is not enough "meat and potatoes" discussion.

Then, when I start a thread based on something of substance for people who are actually practicing that aspect in a realistic manner, you b!tch about that.

God forbid there might be a discussion where you might actually learn something.

Well maybe I should have put a smiley on that post.

Actually I like that fact that you're interested in serious discussion. I'm one of the few on here that isn't a know it all master with all the answers so I look forward to the possibility of picking up worthwhile knowledge.

BUT, I couldn't pass up the chance to point out the irony. :p

[GeneChing]

That actually got a real giggle out of me. I know, I know, we say lol all the time, but in truth, I seldom l out loud. That got a clearly audible giggle. You guys are precious, you know that? Cute, cuddly and precious. :)

Anyway, good to see Rovere is still being productive. I think his research is very interesting and encourage his work. Hopefully, he'll pen another article for us someday. Was his last publication with us in 2004 March/April (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=453)? He actually had two in that issue: Xingyi Bayonet & Baton Retention Techniques.

Ravenshaw: Where do you imagine Justin got it? ;)

[David Jamieson]

I saw a vidoe clip once of Chang Kai Shek of the KMT demonstrating some of the apps from LBK.

the very first move following scholar tucks robes was shown to be a head grab and throw.

I wish I could find that old footage again somewhere. Now i must dig for it I guess. :p

[Ravenshaw]

Where do you imagine Justin got it? ;)

I thought he knew Chinese.