ATTN Rogue. George Bush Is Not Saving My Ass!

[Mr Punch]

Unless you've got video evidence, you're full of it!

[rogue]

You're still alive, aint ya?

[David Jamieson]

anybody who would like to buy a bag of "super special anti tiger stones" that are guaranteed to keep wild tigers from coming onto your driveway, please send money to me, care of "me". :p


you don't see any tigers right? so the stones are definitely working!

buy them!

[Radhnoti]

I've just received word that GWB is temporarily withdrawing his protection from anyone that disagrees with him for 48 hours. Please remember to attribute any bad news in the next two days to your bad attitude. Hopefully everyone will learn their lesson from this and that is all.

[Li Kao]

Although this is a bit of an aside, since we talking about sigs/quotes ...

DJ, I like your Leo quote (though I think it is unsourced) and here are some other gems from a translation of his notebooks:

"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions."

"Man has much power of discourse which for the most part is vain and false; animals have but little, but it is useful and true, and a small truth is better than a great lie."

[bodhitree]

If you think by deploying more troops into a hostile region with No Specific Goals is saving anybody's ass, you are a fool. Colin Powell, James Baker, and a whole slew of other conservatives agree with that. Rouge is my ignore list (nothing personal, but anybody who has something as foolish as that in their sig would get on).

[rogue]

Getting on bodhitree's ignore list is a great way to start my day!:D

Anybody who puts someone on their ignore list over a sig is a tool. Nothing personal.

[bodhitree]

what Iraqis think (http://bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6252123.stm)

What Colin Powell thinks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6188693.stm)
Mr Powell told CBS News that bolstering troop numbers would be unlikely to reverse the "grave and deteriorating situation" in the country.

George Bush has made more of the Islamic world turn radical. They now have more motivation for future attacks. America has lost all forms of "soft" power and must rely on coersive force and coersive force alone. Iraq had no relavence in the real war on terror, and made us divert focus away from Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden. Great Job George, and he's determined to keep screwing us right up until 2008

[Samurai Jack]

Pedro offers you his protection.

[golden arhat]

im in the uk and he has done very little to save my ass
e.g 7/7 tube bombs thanks to your foreign policy that we seem to have joined in with despite lack of public support

[David Jamieson]

You wait and see, eventually George Bush will blame the whole thing on the Iraqis.

It's all their fault that he failed etc etc etc.

Man, I am not sure that W is living in the same dimension with the rest of us and instead opts to live in a state of dimentia.

one more "old idiot" for the text books i guess. :p

[Yao Sing]

Actually he seems to be on the verge of (his definition of) victory.

Bush's Victory (http://www.rense.com/general74/hhme.htm)

[SanHeChuan]

Dude! Cheney is sitting with a shotgun at your back door right now. No really you can go look, but uh... I wouldn't risk it. I hear he's got an itchy trigger finger. But dude yo a$$ is covered!;)

[Shaolinlueb]

Pedro offers you his protection.

best post all day!

[CFT]

Was anyone else bothered by this part of his address (paraphrasing):

"The situation in Iraq is unacceptable to the American people and unacceptable to me ... ".

Hell, what about the Iraqi people? You think it's easy for them?

[BoulderDawg]

The sad truth is that Bush was never qualified to be President in the first place. He does not have the mental capacity to access and judge the consequences of his actions.

The truth is a hundred years from now the big question will be: "How was this man ever elected President in the first place?"

Want to hear something even worse.......

I'm still not convinced that Cheney will not run for President....two more years of this crap is scary but I cannot imagine 10 more.

[SevenStar]

surely dubya has saved our asses in some minute fashion that we may not realize. And perhaps hilary clinton will greatly save our asses. Or maybe the aliens will make themselves known and save us all.

[AJM]

Or maybe we'll shut diebold down and go back to paper ballots.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The truth is a hundred years from now the big question will be: "How was this man ever elected President in the first place?"

Actually, I think the big question will be: "Was this man ever elected President in the first place?"

[jigahus]

I don't think besides history majors will care about who was our president 100 years from now? I mean who can honestly remember who was our president in 1907? Not me and I believe a majority of American's won't either.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It was Teddy Eisenhower, and yes, I do care.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just kiddin.....

Seriously--that kind of attitude may have sufficed in the past, but it won't nowadays. Used to be you might get bombed or shot up if you lived in a major city. But in today's world, a nuke's gonna have an effect on you too. Three or four--who you kiddin'?

GW's puttin' us in positions where Middle Eastern coutnries with small grudges against us now have big ones (we sparked a civil war). If we fail, Iran (Nuclear Iran) is right next door, and they're not particularly big on America, if you didn't notice.

Do you think that muslims would really balk at the idea of a Nuclear Holocaust, when they're willing to off themselves in record numbers in the slaughter of innocent countrymen?

Who are we?

To them--we're George Bush. Remember, they don't have CNN......or porn.....

I'm not sure which one would have better social effects.

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't think besides history majors will care about who was our president 100 years from now?

The problem with this is that if you forget the past you are destined to repeat it.

I think about the current direction the us is going in and look at rome and think Oh ****!:eek:

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm heavily into Roman history. The reason that I am is that its history has a lot of political parallels, and the problems that led to its destruction and downfall are the same that are beoming ours with increasing severity.

[SPJ]

It is all buying time strategy till next election.

proposed to increase troops then congress will discuss not to increase instead of withdrawal timetable.

to move a step further so that you may "back" a step and stay at the same spot.

--

the bigger pictures:

1. a bigger army.

2. 1000 ships navy.

3. more border guards and coastal guards.

4. more agencies, CIA. FBI, home land securities etc.

--

oh, every one is going back to the moon.

China, India, Japan and south Korea are all going to the moon and build permanent bases.

--

http://www.iraq.net/

http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jfs/jfs060612_1_n.shtml

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/leadership/quotes.asp?q=11&c=2

http://www.chips.navy.mil/archives/06_Jul/web_pages/RADM_Anderson.htm

http://www.c3f.navy.mil/newspage_CNO_Sea_Power.htm

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's all politics.

Not only is it strategy, it's prudent planning. The Republicans (some) think this is the best strategy. So they're setting the stage for their agenda. If a Democrat comes along, it'll almost be too late to say....decrease the military presence, etc.

He's got us overcommitting. His agenda won't be easily reversed. He's planning ahead for a Republican agenda regarding Iraq.

[BoulderDawg]

I find it intersting that Bush is going ahead with the influx of new troops. Even though 95% of Americans are against it.

However this could be some sort of ploy. Bush will put 20K new troops in Iraq then, next month or some time, he'll send 5K home. Of course this will make major headlines over at FOX news:

"Bush sends troops home".........:D

Surely....Hopefully Americans are not stupid enough to fall for something like that....are they?

In any case, I've never been one to preach for impeachment.....but if Bush plans to go ahead with a war that Americans are against, congress is against, are our allies are against then maybe it's time.

[mantiskilla]

We live in a hyper reality. There is no such thing as Disneyworld?we are Disneyworld (U.S.). We look at images in the media and believe things are happening around the world in places we will never probably visit in our lives. We believe these things because we are told they are true by our media and government. I believe the hyper reality consumer society we live in is beginning to fray at the seams a bit, however. I welcome this and wait for the chaos and TRUTH to emerge.
________
BDSM JAPANESE (http://www.****tube.com/categories/241/japanese/videos/1)

[Black Jack II]

Man its posts like this that keep me away from online forums....

Its good to see that kungfu magazine is still home to a few peeps who dont let rationality get in the way of there thoughts.

Here are few essential tidbits that get the old.....:rolleyes:

-The sad truth is that Bush was never qualified to be President in the first place. He does not have the mental capacity to access and judge the consequences of his actions.


-I believe the hyper reality consumer society we live in is beginning to fray at the seams a bit, however. I welcome this and wait for the chaos and TRUTH to emerge.

-GW's puttin' us in positions where Middle Eastern coutnries with small grudges against us now have big ones (we sparked a civil war). If we fail, Iran (Nuclear Iran) is right next door, and they're not particularly big on America, if you didn't notice.

I don't really know which one is my favorite flavour of liberal peanutbutter bunk.:D

Its good to see you still fighting the good fight Rogue.

Black Jack


-Democrats. Fighting Freedom and Democracy Every Step of the Way

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hyper-reality.....I like that.


But for policy tips.....listen to GW and the issue of Iran.

This guy's got something up his sleeve....

[Shaolin Wookie]

-Democrats. Fighting Freedom and Democracy Every Step of the Way

Republicans: ****ing Freedom and Democracy right up the ass.

[Chief Fox]

This whole war is a scam to make a sh!tload of money for GW's friends and supporters. ie: Big Business. It's not politics, it's money.

GW knows that in 100 years nobody is going to care or remember this. So he is lining his friends pockets with cash now.

Who cares about global warming and climate change. Who cares about how many innocent people have to die. Who cares about what the American people want. Who cares how many lies GW has to tell. GW is in charge and he's going to do things his way. And that means making all of his friends super rich. Plain and simple.

The whole reason we are making the region "more secure" is because we have financial interests in the region. ie: OIL! The re-building of IRAQ is a huge business and who do you think is behind it all? It may not be GW directly but I'll bet it's one of his close friends.

There's no other reason why a leader just flat out won't listen to his people. Does he really think that he is just that much smarter than everyone he is supposed to be leading?

I find it interesting that just before GW comes forward with his "new strategy" (which is awfully similar to his old strategy if you ask me) that he switches generals in Iraq. Sounds like the old general maybe thought that GW has the wrong plan so GW got him out there and replaced him with some one who will listen a little better.

It's sad when a people looses faith in their leadership. I'm not sure if I ever had faith in GW but what little I did have is all gone now.

The only problem with impeeching Bush is that we're still stuck with Cheney.

[Black Jack II]

-Republicans: ****ing Freedom and Democracy right up the ass.

Lmao. I love when socialists froth at the mouth.

[mantiskilla]

Man its posts like this that keep me away from online forums....





LOL, yeah I know...I feel the same way about yours.
________
Pornstars Charley Chase (http://www.****tube.com/categories/854/charley-chase/videos/1)

[Black Jack II]

-This whole war is a scam to make a sh!tload of money for GW's friends and supporters. ie: Big Business. It's not politics, it's money.

LMFAO....yeah that's right. A perfect statement based on ZERO emprical evidence. That ideology is so ****ed up I don't know where to start.

I never understand why liberals oppose regime change in Irag? Would modern liberals have opposed regime change in Hitlers Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union? Maybe in Pol Pot's Cambodia?

Lets see, we got rid of a regime which was really a criminal mob masquerading as a government. A mob which executed between 300,000 and one million Iraqis. Where rape, torture, and murder were national policies and were well documented by the world yet a certain mindset complains about using our military power to take this douchebag out???

Or is it really about how a certain political party just hates President Bush and his focus to protect America and support sanity, rationality and individual freedom wherever we can around the globe.

[BoulderDawg]

Bush is slowly but surely being backed into a corner over this Iraq thing.

Unfortunately this will lead to even more unstable decision making.

My guess: Give it about six months (maybe more/maybe less) and Bush will come out with his "plan" (this will make about five or six of them). That will be:

The "terrorists" are the cause of all the problems in Iraq. They are being let into the country by Iran....Solution: Attack Iran!

*******

Wait and see!:D

By the way Boulderdawg only has one plan....has only had one plan since this whole mess begin: Leave Iraq Immediately!

[SPJ]

politics aside;

the reality is that the US is not going to leave anytime soon.

Iraq is in the middle of many contending forces.

Turkey with kurds in the north, iran with shiite, arabia with sunny, etc

--

[FuXnDajenariht]

The sad truth is that Bush was never qualified to be President in the first place. He does not have the mental capacity to access and judge the consequences of his actions.

The truth is a hundred years from now the big question will be: "How was this man ever elected President in the first place?"

Want to hear something even worse.......

I'm still not convinced that Cheney will not run for President....two more years of this crap is scary but I cannot imagine 10 more.

you can thank the moral majority for that. the title moral majority is insulting to me personally on many levels but thats another post entirely. its pretty clear now that they're also responsible for electing Reagan and we all know what a disaster that was for anyone that wasn't wealthy and Christian. sorta reminds me of a current situation that everyone should be familiar with. Bush supposedly modeled himself after the guy. surprise, surprise at the end result.

and "President" Cheney doesn't need to campaign. him and Rove and the 'bottomline' corporations that fund them are already running the country. everyone knows Bush is just the puppet in chief. no one that stupid would be allowed to actually make any adult decision, and i give Rove and Cheney enough credit to be smart enough not to. hopefully though, Cheney gets tired of running the country into the ground and the bad publicity that soon follows this, and retires to some fortune 500 company.

hopefully most Americans aren't brain damaged enough to let anyone associated with the Bush administration wield any power ever ever eeeeeever again.

........atleast i hope. i was unpleasantly surprised and downright dumbstruck in 2004, so i wont be making any bets on that.

[FuXnDajenariht]

I'm heavily into Roman history. The reason that I am is that its history has a lot of political parallels, and the problems that led to its destruction and downfall are the same that are beoming ours with increasing severity.


i'm a history fanatic too. i agree with everything you said. have your ever seen the Terry Jones series: Barbarians Live! it paints the Romans in quite a different light than the current one they revel in. it has the view that the Romans weren't quite the pinnacle of the civilization that they're credited as being. everyone knows that the winners and conquerers write history after all, but shouldn't the act and culturally held philosophy of imperialism say something about a particular group of people or a particular culture in the first place? personally i think of Romans as barely more civilized than the people they claimed to enlighten. i'm slightly biased admittedly but its a good doc that allows you to recieve a differing point of view about a subject, thats crucial for anyone into history. anyone with any wisdom knows the world is mostly shades of grey, and not at all black and white like people willfully blind themselves into believing. its a safe, but weak view of reality.

we once again proved as the Romans have that timless lesson that arrogance, greed, close-mindedness and intolerance as a policy will lead to your downfall quicker than you can imagine. in only 5-6 years everything that America stood for has pretty much come undone. we were always hyprocrites in practice but we always had the foundation to be principally one of the freest societies in written history. thats all severely in doubt now though. i crossing my fingers that we dont become another cautionary tale in the history books though..... the 2008 elections will prolly be one of the most important moments in the story of America. i hope people view it as such.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Man its posts like this that keep me away from online forums....

Its good to see that kungfu magazine is still home to a few peeps who dont let rationality get in the way of there thoughts.

Here are few essential tidbits that get the old.....:rolleyes:

-The sad truth is that Bush was never qualified to be President in the first place. He does not have the mental capacity to access and judge the consequences of his actions.


-I believe the hyper reality consumer society we live in is beginning to fray at the seams a bit, however. I welcome this and wait for the chaos and TRUTH to emerge.

-GW's puttin' us in positions where Middle Eastern coutnries with small grudges against us now have big ones (we sparked a civil war). If we fail, Iran (Nuclear Iran) is right next door, and they're not particularly big on America, if you didn't notice.

I don't really know which one is my favorite flavour of liberal peanutbutter bunk.:D

Its good to see you still fighting the good fight Rogue.

Black Jack


-Democrats. Fighting Freedom and Democracy Every Step of the Way

gawd. my IQ dropped by 30 just reading this nonsense.

an example of thinking that's definitely not part of the solution, soooo it must be the other option..... wonder what that is....... ;)

talk about mindless cliches. i'm wondering though......is everyone who watches Fox News required to get lobotomized?

i dont think even Einstein would be able to reason why people would freely, willfully, even happily take part in their own oppression.

it confounds the sane mind, and yes i had to qualify that statement.

[Black Jack II]

-gawd. my IQ dropped by 30 just reading this nonsense.

So does that explain why you sound borderline retarded? Since you brought up FOX....

In my view FOX news in its great success has given excellent balance to the media's overwhelmingly liberal tilt. ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, PBS and a vast lobby of major daily newspapers basically serve up liberal propaganda.

As a very brief example, the purported newspaper of record, the New York Times hasn't endored a Republican presidential candidate since Dwight Eisenhower, despite the fact that a great scale of our population is Republican. That's right: the Times endorsed George McGovern in 1972, Walter Mondale in 1984, and Michael Dukakis in 1988 as well as Jimmy Carter twice, Bill Scrumbag Clinon twice, Al Gore and John Kerry.

We all know how those guys turned out to be real winners. Heh

If any liberal can stop there emotional trainwreck for a second, to stop blabbing about right wing conspiracy, and other bunk, I would be happy to go over real talking points but I don't think many can really do that.

[The Willow Sword]

Well its always fun when an ultra right winger gets on the board and just spouts out about " oh those gol dang liberals and their agenda and comspiracy theories".:D

The Fact of the matter is that this war is majorly messed up and was not thought out in a rational manner NOR was it conducted in a manner befitting a True military. Sun Tzu is probably laughing his celestial a$$ off right now at how The president is conducting himself and what he says and does, and is laughing even harder at how things are being handled over there by our military.

Another Fact and it seems to be the general and overwhelming consensus is that the american people are sick and tired of this war and how we are conducting it. Scandals and criminal behavior permeates the right wingers political party and guess what Black Jack II? Your little party just lost control of the house. Hmm guess us tree huggin liberal hippi dirt munchers turned out the vote. Or maybe some ultra right wingers finally decided to pull their heads out of their a$$ and facilitate some change.;)
At any rate, the change is happening, Bush is in his last throws seeking approval from those who vehemently dissaprove. Condi rice is uncle tomming herself as per usual. Let's just hope and pray that Iran has enough patience with us.
Peace ,Love Dope,,,TWS:p

[BoulderDawg]

At any rate, the change is happening, Bush is in his last throws seeking approval from those who vehemently dissaprove. Condi rice is uncle tomming herself as per usual. Let's just hope and pray that Iran has enough patience with us.

I'm not that convinced myself. I trust the democrats about as much as I trust the republicans. Very few in the party are saying let's get out now. I think the republicrat label fits nicely.

Isn't Cunnilingis Rice a joke!:D I wish they would run her for president!

Anyway never underestimate Cheney and his ilk. These people scare me and I'm not at all convinced that they will not still be in power after 2008.

Iran? Frankly I don't know what to think about Iran. I understand the nation is changing from within and the people are very friendly. However just when you start to think these people might be sincere and have some logical ideas about stability in the area they go and have that Holocaust conference. I found that very strange indeed.

[Black Jack II]

Willowsword with this comment below you prove yourself to be a profane ass. Its all anyone needs to see how transparent you are.

-Condi rice is uncle tomming herself as per usual

That comment is almost as lame as Ted Rall's july 2004 syndicated cartoon, depicting Rice as Bush's "house nigga" or Doonesbury creator Garry Trudeau drawing a cartoon with President Bush referring to a thick lipped, buck toothed Rice as "brown sugar".

freakin racist tool

[Black Jack II]

BolderDawg-

Not sure what Iran you are talking about but President Bush included Iran, along with Iraq and North Korea, in the Axis of Evil for a good reason: the government of Iran is evil. Iran is a nation that is developing nuclear weapons in violation of its international treaty obligations and is a proven state sponsor of international terror. Also a number of days ago, Iranian spies were captured in Baghdad with explosives.

American and Iraqi joint patrols, along with U.S. Special Operations teams, captured two men with explosives in Baghdad on Monday who identified themselves as Iranian intelligence officers, FOX News has confirmed. Senior officials said it was previously believed that Iran had officers inside Iraq stirring up violence, but this is the first time that self-proclaimed Iranian intelligence agents have been captured within the country.
Iran is sending in its agents to attack Iraqi, American and Coalition forces; this is an act of war. Coupled with the recent hijacking of British sailors while in Iraqi waters, this action demonstrates the willingness of the Iranian government to risk confrontation with American and British forces. This news directly follows Iraqi claims on Monday that foreign governments are supporting the insurrection in the newly established Iraq.

[BoulderDawg]

That doesn't make any sense.

If Iran's purpose was to somehow invade and conquer Iraq why bother sending "agents" into the country. It would make much more sense to just play the waiting game, let the bloody civil war rage and rage.

Send in Iranians to "stir up violence"....:D Oh, I think there is plenty of that to go around without the Iranians. The Americans seem to be doing their best to achieve that goal. This is just more conservative propaganda to justify the Iran invasion when it occurs.

[Black Jack II]

:rolleyes:

Iran's purpose is not to overrun iraq. It's to help shuttle in more violence to create more havoc. Facts are facts. Instead of looking at what was stated you bring up the term conservative propaganda and yes Iran will have to be dealt with at some point.

Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister, told the Sunday Telegraph that his government had gathered information from intelligence services showing support by some neighbouring countries to the insurgents. Zebari did not name the foreign powers, but the Sunday Telegraph quoted “senior Iraqi officials” as indicating “that Iran and Syria were the worst offenders”. “Since we started to look at the security situation, we have seen how foreign governments have been helping terrorists,” the newspaper quoted Zebari as saying. “Why they are doing it we cannot say, but we know where the support is coming from. We have plans to put this before the public within days and it will have substantial impact,” he told the newspaper.

Right there, from the horses mouth to speak.

[The Willow Sword]

Nope BJ II. Not Racist at all. IN fact i am very appauled that Condi would sell her soul like she has to support this administration and agenda. The Woman has SO much intellect and potential and yet she squanders it away by being the spokesperson for this nitwit president in the whitehouse. I can see it in how she conducts herself and how she has to bite her lip everytime she is confronted with the idiocy and irrationality of this president.

Mr. Powell got himself out of it and rightly so.

You skirt my initial points by trying to redirect my comments by saying what an ass i am and how racist you think i am. I think it is very transparant from over here how much of denial YOU are in about yourself.

Peace,TWS

[Black Jack II]

Willowsword,

You already called yourself out on what you really are. A ideological streaker who is now trying to conceal his liberal racism because Condi does not act "black enough".

Uncle Tom is a pejorative for an African American who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures. Racists like you commonly use it to describe black people whose political views or allegiances are considered by their critics as detrimental to blacks as a group....aka democrats.

You double showcase this when you single out Powell. lmao.

[The Willow Sword]

Well BJ II i disagree with you totally. You can twist the dialogue however you wish to fit your ideal to feel better about yourself. But it doesnt sway me in the least.
Never have been against any race or have felt that any race is inferior to another, or supported an administration that has racism premeating deep into its very core. Even during civil war times the republican party was supposed to be this all loving and accepting party against the bad mean ole racist confederacy. Yet the Union and repbulicans showed more racism than ever. You should really read your history, lincoln was about as racist as they came in those days. Oh and you go on the notion that i am a democrat. You would be wrong about that notion. But anyway ive said my say. Ramble on if you must. Doesnt change what is already happening right now. Just let go of the notion that your president is doing us any good and get with the rest of the dems repubs and indies WHO despite their political differences can all agree that things are very unnacceptable and a change is needed. What is NOT needed are more of our troops over there getting blown away by IED's.

Peace, TWS

[Black Jack II]

Just wanted to stake a few fast facts here done by this "nitwit president." I always find it funny when someone calls a president a idiot. By sheer default that person becomes unhinged as it goes agaisnt commonsense.

Speaking of facts-here are some since may of 2003

1. Saddam has been caught and now executed. 26 million Iraqis now free from under him

2. A new democractic constitution proctecting fundamental rights was approved by the Iraqi people.

3. A newly established Deckaration of Academic Freedom and Conduct in Iraq now allows Iraqis to be able to express beliefs without great fear of political or religious reprisals by the government.

4. Iraq now has a free press system, free elections, and open political campaigns.

5. Approximately 85 percent of Iraqi children have received immunization.

6. Iraqi women now have access to educational and proffessional opportunities unheard of under Saddam.

7. Best of all. We have not had a single other 911 attack.

Deal with it

[Shaolinlueb]

Just wanted to stake a few fast facts here done by this "nitwit president." I always find it funny when someone calls a president a idiot. By sheer default that person becomes unhinged as it goes agaisnt commonsense.

Speaking of facts-here are some since may of 2003

1. Saddam has been caught and now executed. 26 million Iraqis now free from under him

2. A new democractic constitution proctecting fundamental rights was approved by the Iraqi people.

3. A newly established Deckaration of Academic Freedom and Conduct in Iraq now allows Iraqis to be able to express beliefs without great fear of political or religious reprisals by the government.

4. Iraq now has a free press system, free elections, and open political campaigns.

5. Approximately 85 percent of Iraqi children have received immunization.

6. Iraqi women now have access to educational and proffessional opportunities unheard of under Saddam.

7. Best of all. We have not had a single other 911 attack.

Deal with it

5 and 7 are good.

but seriously the rest, is it all working according to plan? no, enver does. a country in an area where religion often rules the people, this will be hard to make it work.

[Chief Fox]

Just wanted to stake a few fast facts here done by this "nitwit president." I always find it funny when someone calls a president a idiot. By sheer default that person becomes unhinged as it goes agaisnt commonsense.

Speaking of facts-here are some since may of 2003

1. Saddam has been caught and now executed. 26 million Iraqis now free from under him

2. A new democractic constitution proctecting fundamental rights was approved by the Iraqi people.

3. A newly established Deckaration of Academic Freedom and Conduct in Iraq now allows Iraqis to be able to express beliefs without great fear of political or religious reprisals by the government.

4. Iraq now has a free press system, free elections, and open political campaigns.

5. Approximately 85 percent of Iraqi children have received immunization.

6. Iraqi women now have access to educational and proffessional opportunities unheard of under Saddam.

7. Best of all. We have not had a single other 911 attack.

Deal with it

BlackJack II, the above list is all well a great but you paint a very rosey picture of conditions in Iraq.

Hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced. Clean running water and electricity is not available to everyone. The children have been imunized but they are malnourished and school is practically non-existent. To top all of this off, no matter what the republicans say, Iraq is in the middle of a civil war.

As far as another 9/11 attack goes, it's been proven that Iraq has no ties with AlQuida.

It's funny how republicans have changed their tune from "weapons of mass destruction" to "War on Terror" to "Iraqi Freedom" without even missing a beat.

I really can't believe that so many people have fallen for this BS hook line and sinker. You sound like a reasonably intelligent person Black Jack but do you honestly think we're at war in Iraq to make the world a better place? We're participating in a war that our children's children will still be paying for. And you think we're doing all of this for Iraqi Freedom!?

I will consider the fact that you may be right about this but let's look at it from a different angle.

What about the genocide that has occured and is still happening today in Africa? Literally, millions of people have been killed and we are doing nothing. Saddam was hanged for the killing of 148 Shiites after an assassination attempt in the town of Dujail in 1982. Millions vs. 148. It's no comparison.

So if we are so concerned about making the world a better place and the freedom of people in other countries, then why are we letting this happen in Africa?

The only difference is, the middle east contains something that we want. Oil.

My question is, if not for oil, then why? Why are we there and not in Africa?

If asking this question makes me a liberal then I will wear the label with pride.

My question to you is, why aren't you asking this same question?

[Black Jack II]

Chief Fox,

Here are a few answers to some of your questions.

Lets talk about Oil first. Its a common rally cry for certain groups. You know the one...No blood for oil.

I don't believe for a instant the war has anything to do with oil. If the U.S. simply wanted to use war to get cheaper oil we could of kept Kuwait's oil fields for ourselves back in 1991. Heck, in 1991 the U.S. could have moved the 550,000 troups on the ground into Iraq itself to capture the oil fields, after all, Iraq had NO army left to stop us.

Better yet if America just wanted oil we could use military might to seize mexican and Venezuelan oil fields or even better and I think the stopping piece. If we really just wanted cheaper oil we could of given in to the Frence and German demands to lift economic sanctions on Iraq in 1991.

Also its not a war agaisnt AlQuida. Its a war against terrorism. Saddam in just a few examples supported terrorism by paying bounties to families of Palestinian suicide bombers, he tried to assassinate former President George H Bush, and has been known to support and shelter terrorist cells on the move. These include Abu Nidal Organization and the Palestine Liberation Front.

The answer is not so much for them, but for our very lives. Saddam was a threat. We have every right as a country to protect our selves. Fighting these kind of men in Iraq and Afghanistan takes the fight to our enemies and gives us acces to the heart of the middle east. Which is the heart of the war on terror. By attacking the enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have moved the locus of islamist-generated insanity to there own backyard. Right were we want it.

[Sang Feng Fan]

BlackJack II, the above list is all well a great but you paint a very rosey picture of conditions in Iraq.

As far as another 9/11 attack goes, it's been proven that Iraq has no ties with AlQuida.



There was no proof of a direct connection between Saddam Hussein and 9/11 however there were many ties between Iraq and the financing, training and housing of Al Qaeda operatives.

[golden arhat]

Republicans: ****ing Freedom and Democracy right up the ass.

now in this world u got 3 kinds of ppl
diks pussies and arseholes

now diks love pussies but pussies hate diks cos pussies get fuked by diks

but diks ALSO fuk arseholes and arse holes sh1t over everything lol

i love that movie
as for bush ive already started to blob#ck out the last 6 years

and as for global warming
yester day some islands off the coast of central america deny global warming now bush

[Mr Punch]

Just wanted to stake a few fast facts here done by this "nitwit president." I always find it funny when someone calls a president a idiot. By sheer default that person becomes unhinged as it goes agaisnt commonsense.What are you blithering about? 'By sheer default' ...? What goes against commonsense? That people who don't deserve a job, who are not qualified for a job, who are not fit or who become unfit to do a job, or are not as suited to a job as people thought they were get into a job? I think you'll find that's an everyday occurance!


Speaking of facts-here are some since may of 2003

1. Saddam has been caught and now executed. 26 million Iraqis now free from under himSome people in (or until recently) Bush's administration were at least partially responsible for funding/supporting his original rise, and more certainly for authorizing the sales of illegal chemical/biological weapons agents, and then for failing to remove him. Not saying that this is just the US's fault, the UK and most other 'developed' states were there too, but getting rid of him was just long unfinished business and doesn't deserve any special kudos.

Plus Bush just declared he thinks the Iraqi handling of the execution made it look like a revenge killing... after his statement about someone who tried to kill his daddy, this is rather amusing.


2. A new democractic constitution proctecting fundamental rights was approved by the Iraqi people.Yes, it was approved by those who weren't trying to kill each other and everyone else on polling day. I bet those people whose fundamental rights are being protected feel safer picking cousin Mohammed's remains off the lamp-posts and scraping them into spongebags now!

Your talk of rights is idealistic bull as bad as any democrat if it doesn't have practical back-up.


3. A newly established Deckaration of Academic Freedom and Conduct in Iraq now allows Iraqis to be able to express beliefs without great fear of political or religious reprisals by the government.Ditto Point 2. Plus they're afraid of everyone else, and so are the govt, so what has been achieved there exactly in terms of freedom and public safety?


4. Iraq now has a free press system, free elections, and open political campaigns.And a lot of good it's given them. Which is why a lot of them went back to supporting their captured dictator in word if nothing else.


5. Approximately 85 percent of Iraqi children have received immunization.Good point. Georgey has been busy with the needle! But then he was always qualified to handle drugs! :p (Cheap shot I know... but then I don't suppose George is a stranger to those either! Boo-boom cha. :D )


6. Iraqi women now have access to educational and proffessional opportunities unheard of under Saddam.See Points 2 and 3.


7. Best of all. We have not had a single other 911 attack. Now that one is genuinely funny. :D
1) The fact is there weren't any 9/11s before George either!
2) We had the 7/7 and another attempted one two weeks later.
3) Saddam Hussein was completely opposed ideologically to Al Qaeda and the Taliban: different branches of Islam, plus Saddam only played the Islam card when he needed it (after his fall and during the war before his capture) and was completely secular whereas Bin Laden and many of his ilk soundly condemned Saddam.
4) The 911 murderers were almost all Saudi and all had Saudi backing: the country of Bin Laden himself with its unelected Royal dictatorship, shoddy human rights record... and oh, the unwavering support and business of the US government and arms dealers.
5) There is no causal relationship provable or even particularly apparent between the actions of George Bush and the absence of a behavioural phenomenon. In fact the absence of such a phenomenon is usually largely unattributable to any scientific cause.


Deal with itNeeext! :D

[Mr Punch]

Good to have you back Black Jack!

Things get boring round here...!

[Mr Punch]

I've just received word that GWB is temporarily withdrawing his protection from anyone that disagrees with him for 48 hours. Please remember to attribute any bad news in the next two days to your bad attitude. Hopefully everyone will learn their lesson from this and that is all.I've had a GREEEAT coupla days! :p


Dude! Cheney is sitting with a shotgun at your back door right now. No really you can go look, but uh... I wouldn't risk it. I hear he's got an itchy trigger finger. But dude yo a$$ is covered!;)I haven't got a back door. I do have a balcony, and strangely, it's true that's where George Bush is! That's what I called my heavy bag, for when I'm really p!ssed off! :D

[Chief Fox]

Chief Fox,

Here are a few answers to some of your questions.

Lets talk about Oil first. Its a common rally cry for certain groups. You know the one...No blood for oil.

I don't believe for a instant the war has anything to do with oil. If the U.S. simply wanted to use war to get cheaper oil we could of kept Kuwait's oil fields for ourselves back in 1991. Heck, in 1991 the U.S. could have moved the 550,000 troups on the ground into Iraq itself to capture the oil fields, after all, Iraq had NO army left to stop us.

Better yet if America just wanted oil we could use military might to seize mexican and Venezuelan oil fields or even better and I think the stopping piece. If we really just wanted cheaper oil we could of given in to the Frence and German demands to lift economic sanctions on Iraq in 1991.

Also its not a war agaisnt AlQuida. Its a war against terrorism. Saddam in just a few examples supported terrorism by paying bounties to families of Palestinian suicide bombers, he tried to assassinate former President George H Bush, and has been known to support and shelter terrorist cells on the move. These include Abu Nidal Organization and the Palestine Liberation Front.

The answer is not so much for them, but for our very lives. Saddam was a threat. We have every right as a country to protect our selves. Fighting these kind of men in Iraq and Afghanistan takes the fight to our enemies and gives us acces to the heart of the middle east. Which is the heart of the war on terror. By attacking the enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have moved the locus of islamist-generated insanity to there own backyard. Right were we want it.
If you believe that this war has nothing to Oil then we will never agree.

Let's take a few of your points, look at them a bit more closely and apply some common sense.

1. If it was all about oil why didn't we just keep the oil fields for ourselves as well as invading other countries to get their oil?

First of all, Sadam is/was a bad guy with a temper and an attitude. We knew that if we pushed him hard enough with the UN that he would eventually refuse to let us search for weapons of mass destruction. We forced his hand and then we had no choice but to invade/liberate Iraq. So we are able to get to the oil through the back door while putting these other reasons up front as to why we are there.

2. He tried to assasinate President Bush.

Yes he did and for this the entire infrastructure of his country has been destroyed, thousands upon thousands of Iraqi people are dead and Sadam himself was hanged. Let's compare this to the attempt on Sadams life where Sadam responsed with the killing of 148 people back in '92. No comparison really.

3. Sadam was a threat.

No doubt. But not as big a threat as he's been made out to be by GW. Un sanctions could have crippled Iraq and forced Sadam to play our game. What we've done instead is show the world that we are as bad as or even worse then Sadam ever was. We destroyed an entire country. Now we are trying to rebuild that country. By we I mean American companies like Haliburton that are making millions from the war. Then of course there are people with direct ties to the President like (shoot your buddy in face) **** Cheney. Cheney retired from the Haliburton during the 2000 U.S. presidential election campaign with a severance package worth $34 million. As of 2004, he had received $398,548 in deferred compensation from Halliburton while Vice President. Cheney also retains unexercised stock options at Halliburton, which have been valued at nearly $8 million.

So, yes, Sadam was a bad guy. Just bad enough to get us into Iraq under false pretenses. Now that we are there, we will never leave. We will always have a military force in Iraq to "stabilize the region" as well as American companies cashing in on running the oil industry.

I noticed how you didn't mention the genocide in Africa at all. That is exactly the same way the Bush administration is handling the situation. I guess their plan is, don't talk about it and maybe it will go away. That is until they discover oil there.

[Black Jack II]

Mr Punch,

What goes agaisnt commonsense is the simple fact that the guy got the job. You can't be a nitwit and get the most powerfull position on Earth. That is where the default comes into play. You aredoing what most of the left do, you are using your emotions to draw that specific induction. But in reality the particular hard evidence shows far different results.

1. Some people in (or until recently) Bush's administration were at least partially responsible for funding/supporting his original rise, and more certainly for authorizing the sales of illegal chemical/biological weapons agents, and then for failing to remove him.-

What empircal proof do you have of this at all? Better yet, are you saying that you would rather have Saddam alive? A guy who executed countless Iraqis, who supported worldwide terrorism, who used biological agents on civilains?

2. Yes, it was approved by those who weren't trying to kill each other and everyone else on polling day. I bet those people whose fundamental rights are being protected feel safer picking cousin Mohammed's remains off the lamp-posts and scraping them into spongebags now!-

Again, this is raw emotion talking, where I used facts. In a December 2005 poll conducted by ABC News and Time Magazine, 70 percent of Iraqis thought that there lives were "going well" and nearly two-thirds expected their lives to improve in 2006. Just taking into account the rest of the points on my sheet showcases a VAST improvement from the corrupt regime that was there before.

The reality is this, conservatives understand the threat and the Blame-America-First crowd does not and never will, because well, they hate where they ****.

BTW, whoever brought up Global Warming, wow.....that is another one for the bs box.

[golden arhat]

Mr Punch,

What empircal proof do you have of this at all? Better yet, are you saying that you would rather have Saddam alive? A guy who executed countless Iraqis, who supported worldwide terrorism, who used biological agents on civilains?

.

more people have died now that we have tried to remove him
and the entire middle east is ****ed with us for our actions hence all the terrorism

so basically i would like to see saddam back because at least he could control things

[Black Jack II]

You want to see a mass murderer back in power?? What the hell is wrong with you??

I hope you are young, that way that kind of premise has a reason, otherwise it just showcases how freakin ****edup most people are.

So let me get this right, you want to bring back from the dead a guy who in violation of the Geneva Convention, used posion gas against the unarmed Kurdish women and childern population as well as Iran soliders of war.

Who payed rewards to Palestinian's to encourage suicide bombings, gave shelter, financing, and help to terrorism cells, whose kids raped and murder at whim. You want a massively corrupt kingdom back in power.

Lmao....people like that should play in traffic.

History has proven that without a doubt that democratic nations can be created from non-democratic beginnings. In the twentieth century alone, new democracies have arose in Germany, Japan, Italy, India and many Latin American countries.

[Chief Fox]

History has proven that without a doubt that democratic nations can be created from non-democratic beginnings. In the twentieth century alone, new democracies have arose in Germany, Japan, Italy, India and many Latin American countries.
That may be true but it is also true that the Middle East does not want, what they consider to be Western Ideals, to be imposed on them. Forcing democracy down their throats is a great way to get them to hate us. It's worked so far.

[Black Jack II]

Chief Fox,

That may be true but it is also true that the Middle East does not want, what they consider to be Western Ideals, to be imposed on them. Forcing democracy down their throats is a great way to get them to hate us. It's worked so far.-

I will somewhat give you a partial agreement on the first part of that paragraph.

As for the second, well, they have hated us for a very long time. The militant Islamists divide the world into two houses-the House of Peace, which includes followers of "true" Islam andthe House of War, the rest of us apostates and infidels who do not follow the "true" Islam.

Militant Islamists want to destroy those in the House of War. Guess were we all fall in????

In the last decade, Islamists have repeatedly attacked Americans and American interests here and abroad, culminating in three thousand murders and $1 trillion in economic losses inflicted by 9/11. It was not Amish farmers, Israeli Jews or Lutherans celebrating the mass murder of three thousand people on 9/11 on national tv.

Militant Islam must be destroyed. If we lose this war, no other political issue will matter, for a free society cannot survive with suicide bombers blowing up malls and theaters. Allowing Islamist terrorist networks and those harbouring them to expand and grow would result in the destruction of our way of life.

[Golden Arms]

Black Jack II, who is it you think funded Saddam and helped him secure his position over there..the USA. And I saw this morning that the current Iraqi civilian death toll FOR JUST LAST YEAR was almost 35,000 people. How do you stand behind an administration or group of people that are behind something like that?

I have just one question for all people that still support Bush and this "war" that supposedly ended a couple of years ago. If any foreign power or group of people came into the USA and killed 35,000 of us in one year, even if they were convicted felons being killed, let alone any other citizens of any belief, would you approve?

I am seriously amazed sometimes at how blind some people seem to be when it comes to being blatantly manipulated, especially by fear. What our country is doing over there is nasty, and I wish it would stop.

[Black Jack II]

Golden Arms,

First off tell me the poll that showcases these statistics, second show me where it showcases U.S. military firepower showcasing these statistics, third show me its not from a liberal or anti war site.

Fourth its war. People die in war and when it comes down to it I care much more for the lives lost by our soliders than I do for people that have a hard time taking care of themselves and those whose culture imposes violence the world over.

There freedom is a byproduct of the war on terror. The first aspect is OUR safety.

[Golden Arms]

Yeah why dont you read it yourself :)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16648759/

"A major front-page article in the Washington Post (December 30, 2002) further documented U.S. support for Iraq's WMD programs, especially the chemical program, including trade in weapons and other military goods. The article also detailed the active involvement of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, then a special envoy of President Reagan to Iraq, in reestablishing full diplomatic relations and improving trade and other economic ties that bolstered Washington's military support of Iraq."

Have fun running around with blinders on

And you are right, I am sure your life is WAY more important than another humans, that is practically what democracy is based on! :rolleyes:

You never commented on whether you would allow 35k of our population to be killed in one year by another power for any reason.

[Black Jack II]

Those on the left own stock in the blinder company bro.

Magazzeni said the U.N. figures were compiled from information obtained through the Iraqi Health Ministry, operations centers at hospitals across the country and other agencies.

"Without significant progress in the rule of law sectarian violence will continue indefinitely and eventually spiral out of control," he warned.-

As stated by your own link. Nothing here shows this to be straight out U.S. related but right at THE BOTTOM PARAGRAPH it states SECTARIAN VIOLENCE!

try again. heh

Plus your question is absurd. But I got a dozy for you and think about the question and where you are living before you answer.

Do you want the US to win in Iraq?

[Golden Arms]

We will "win" in Iraq, right after we "win" in Vietnam. I think winning is virtually impossible, since what that would even entail is nebulous at best.

I am fine with agreeing to disagree, but I dont think the question is ridiculous at all, what I described is what we are doing to them. The US is not the world, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There is terrorism in our country, but the terrorists are the current administration. However the people that are fooled by fear tactics I feel bad for, it sucks to watch people surrender without even realizing they were being attacked.

I love our country, but not the way its acting right now, nobody should be above the law.

[Black Jack II]

There we go again with terms like above the law, fear tactics, current administration are terrorists, blah, blah. It's been heard before.

But back to my question. It's one I stole from big Bill on Fox and I find it very telling in its simpleness.

Do you WANT the US to win in Iraq? It's just a yes or no question.

[Golden Arms]

No I dont want us to win.

If we werent there we would not be losing troops, and killing their people.

The Iraqis are not likely to jump in boats and planes and come attack us anytime soon. Over there all you have to do to kill one of us is see an American in Iraq, and have access to an AK-47 or explosive. To attack us if we were here would take the resources to travel around the world, select a target and then attack that person, likely resulting in your own death and good luck getting back home.

Your argument is flawed because you are not using empathy as part of it. Again, how would you react to people coming into your country and killing those that resisted that presence?

Finally, just because its been said before, doesnt mean its not true, it can also mean its obvious.

[Black Jack II]

No I dont want us to win-


That is very distrubing. Its very sick when one wants there own country to fail at a task.

It speaks VOLUMES about what is wrong with the current class of peeps.

VOLUMES.:mad:

[Golden Arms]

Good, I wish more people would hear and think about things a bit. You wanting people to die on both sides of a conflict with no defined end speaks volumes as well.

[Black Jack II]

No man, your just insane, but that makes sense when I look at your location.

You want to see dead American marines, dead american soliders, you want to see more of your own citizens die for your own ideology. That is spoiled John Lennon crap and that ONLY flys with the very-very small population of radical nuts in this country.

What you really don't like is is the excercise of American military power. Your kind never does and never will. You believe military power is inherently evil.

Best part, the very best, is that its the guys dying over there, and all the ones who have died before, which allows your weak knee'd latte drinking kind to say that kind of clapcrap.

Flith dude filth. Pure and simple anyway you cut the pie.

[FuXnDajenariht]

No I dont want us to win-


That is very distrubing. Its very sick when one wants there own country to fail at a task.

It speaks VOLUMES about what is wrong with the current class of peeps.

VOLUMES.:mad:

oooh please....you Bush loving idiots make me wanna puke with how transparent your arguments are. there must be a glitch in that chip they planted in all of your heads, cuz all i hear is repeats of the same retarded, simplistic, divertive arguments. trying to create gut reactions to ignore the real arguments at play and always, always attempting to play the victim.... :rolleyes:

[FuXnDajenariht]

that kind of emotion fueled gut level manipulation hasn't worked since the 2004 elections by the way, thank god. you right-wingers need a new song and dance. a new game play as they say. cuz thats all it is to you Bushies. politics and the very real and profound effects it has on peoples lives is just a game to be won or lost no matter the cost.

saying its in any way ok for hundreds of thousands of innocent people to die in their native country as a result of the actions of your own whether or not our soldiers actually pulled the trigger just shows what a compassionless twit you truly are, no matter how you cut the pie as you put it. but you'll go on ignoring that information i'm sure.

[Black Jack II]

Let's just say so far with the exception of one person, I have not been impressed with anyone's debating skills so far. It's all emotional dogma. I see it all the time online. It's all the left uses. The same nutty stock and trade attitude that never brings about real positive change in a society for the individual.

If you could, ask Neville Chamberlain, who made the mistake of believing that he could negotiate for "peace in our time" with Hitler-only to find England later having to fight a war with a much stronger, better prepared, and fully militarized Germany. It's all republican ***** envy. Liberals think the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness comes from the ACLU or the Supreme Court and not from the Creator.

With posts like these, how can most people not think liberals are douchebags??

'Stupid' means one thing: "threatening to the interests of the Democratic Party." The more Conservative the Republican, the more vicious and hysterical the attacks on his intelligence will be." -- Ann Coulter, P. 125

[FuXnDajenariht]

in an ideal world it is inherent yes, but with people like you and your beloved President in the world it has to come from the Supreme Court. you shamelessy force people to fight for basic human rights. the scary thing is, i think alot of Republicans think its a righteous agenda, and that your actually saving us from ourselves.

oh and its cute how everytime an argument comes up that you have no recourse or reply to that word, "left wing" suddenly appears. appearing faster than those fake tears Bush shed the other day. :rolleyes: mind you no one has ever stated their political leanings but its another one of those quick, simplistic and dismissive diversions.

and the fact that you quoted the right winger with the least amount of creditability on earth says it all.

tell me though. what is the definition of left wing?

[BoulderDawg]

tell me though. what is the definition of left wing?

I was wondering that too. Especially if he thinks the Democrats are radical lefties!:D

[Black Jack II]

in an ideal world it is inherent yes, but with people like you and your beloved President in the world it has to come from the Supreme Court.-

No..no...no..not even close.

Your rights come from the U.S. Constitution as envisioned by the founding fathers, the Bill of Rights and if you are religous, your maker.

you shamelessy force people to fight for basic human rights.-

Its not a draft. Its a paid job.

I will tell you what a liberal is not, from there you can count down.

Conservatives support less government, lower taxes, free captail based markets, private property rights, tough control of illegal alien issues, a strong national defense, we don't light candles to express saddness at the execution of a rapist and murderer, but instead offer to pull the switch, we support our fundamental right to own a gun and use the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, less welfare, no handouts, private healthcare, in a nutshell THAT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILILITY PAVE THE ROAD TO SUCCESS.

All I seem to see liberals, dems, socialists, greenies doing is acting spoiled and ****ed. Which hopefully I will see again come next election. ;)

[Black Jack II]

oh and its cute how everytime an argument comes up that you have no recourse or reply to that word, "left wing" suddenly appears. -

btw, that comment was bs. anyone with have a brain can see who is dodging who.

[FuXnDajenariht]

the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are all fine and well, but its only a piece of paper and worthless at that if the ideals it claims to represent aren't put into practice. deeds not words is the golden rule.

like i said before, we've always had a nice philosophy as the foundation of our country but we've also always have been hypocrites in action, and in actually living up to those principles. its not a perfect document and it never will be. which is why the founding fathers had wisdom enough to know, to allow for changes to the "sacred" document.

look at the list of amendments to the Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

on the 19th amendment, less than 100 years ago woman finally got the right to vote.

little more than a hundred years ago we finally had the courage to ban slavery on the 13th, because apparently the Bill of Rights only applied to White males. i dont need to tell you how much blood was spilled for that. still 100 years after that my grandparents finally started getting fair treatment under law. the government finally being forced by the Supreme Court to uphold it promise to its citizens.


so to say people dont fight for their rights and aren't still fighting for them is absurd. the entire point of the Supreme Court is to protect the people that the consitution is supposed to protect and represent. a piece of paper doesn't give you rights.

but then you have a Presidential administration that twists the Consititution to fit their own agenda, and when its rewritten to have destructive ideals from the very beginning.........well we all know where that leads.

[Golden Arms]

Black Jack II,

1) I dont drink coffee

2) I am friends with tons of military and LEO people, and would have been in the armed forces myself if it had worked out that way for me.

3) I am pretty willing to bet I could make you sorry for calling me a pansy to my face, unless you are REALLY good as San Shou, MMA or Boxing (pro good).

4) The only point that really matters: You talk about believing in preserving rights, that is the MAIN reason I dont like W and this administration. Never have I seen so many of our rights given up so quickly in the name of fear as when they started introducing things like the patriot act. You DO REALIZE it bypasses several of our rights dont you? I am assuming so since you seem to be well studied.

Get more info before you group me with f'n latte drinking hippies , motherf****r, cause you are more likely to be one than I am.

[FuXnDajenariht]

holy ****. your dedicated. you trying ta win Conservative of the year or sumthin?

i'll just touch on some points that i'm interested in hearing about from a true red, white and blue real life conservative. ;)

Black Jack:"Conservatives support less government."

well Anarchists believe in no government at all. does that make them more conservative than conservatives? does anyone really know the benefits of small vs large government? i'd bet you could find plenty of pro-vs-cons and working models for both.

"lower taxes"

is that to everyones benefit or just the wealthy? if that means indefinite tax cuts indepenent of the current situations, who for example would fit the bill for the "battle to spread Freedom and Democracy" or "the War on Terror"?

"free capital based markets"

so is that a capitalists right to make profits regardless of the strain and pressure it puts on the lower classes in society? remember the old adage, you hafta own capital to make capital. how would less well off members of society fairly compete in that kinda system?

"we support our fundamental right to own a gun and use the word "God""

i'm not even gonna touch this.....

"a strong national defense"

i can agree with this, but is it fair to state that we can own hundreds of Nuclear weapons but then complain when others do attempt to do the same simply by claiming that are intentions are more noble? which is laughable when even speaking about nukes.


All I seem to see liberals, dems, socialists, greenies doing is acting spoiled and ****ed. Which hopefully I will see again come next election. ;)

then you whine and b!tch about being insulted. :rolleyes:


its your go Mr Conservative...

[golden arhat]

holy ****. your dedicated. you trying ta win Conservative of the year or sumthin?

i'll just touch on some points that i'm interested in hearing about from a true red, white and blue real life conservative. ;)

Black Jack:"Conservatives support less government."

well Anarchists believe in no government at all. does that make them more conservative than conservatives? does anyone really know the benefits of small vs large government? i'd bet you could find plenty of pro-vs-cons and working models for both.

"lower taxes"

is that to everyones benefit or just the wealthy? if that means indefinite tax cuts indepenent of the current situations, who for example would fit the bill for the "battle to spread Freedom and Democracy" or "the War on Terror"?

"free capital based markets"

so is that a capitalists right to make profits regardless of the strain and pressure it puts on the lower classes in society? remember the old adage, you hafta own capital to make capital. how would less well off members of society fairly compete in that kinda system?

"we support our fundamental right to own a gun and use the word "God""

i'm not even gonna touch this.....

"a strong national defense"

i can agree with this, but is it fair to state that we can own hundreds of Nuclear weapons but then complain when others do attempt to do the same simply by claiming that are intentions are more noble? which is laughable when even speaking about nukes.


All I seem to see liberals, dems, socialists, greenies doing is acting spoiled and ****ed. Which hopefully I will see again come next election. ;)

then you whine and b!tch about being insulted. :rolleyes:


its your go Mr Conservative...


put simply
BOO YAAH!!! BIAAATCCHH!!!


black jack is owned

[golden arhat]

"free capital market"

that would be all well and good if you were actually making people any money
but your country is in the worst state its been in a long time

well except for the following conglomorates

B.A.E
the carlyle group
halliburton

and numerous others

mean while tons of your population are below the poverty line

get a grip man
do some research
seriously just try to understand the lefts viewpoint

[AJM]

I'm a realist. Most conservatives and liberals I know are two sides of the same coin. Self centered in the extreme.

Meanwhile as I watch rail traffic in WRJ Vt., all cars heading north to Canada contain scrap metal, liquid petrolium and logs. All cars heading south from Canada contain finished goods. Apparently we can't make anything here anymore.

[Black Jack II]

I only got a little bit of time. I know I am good but with all this constant switching of arguments going on and other liberal standards of practice for debating its hard to keep track of all the absurdness floating around in the air like so much stink.

Golden Arhat,

No I dont want us to win-

Above is all I got to say. Everything else out of your facist mouth is dead in the water after that. Proves my point that the only shinning light in your neck of the woods is the the eatery Salumi.


Fux,

does anyone really know the benefits of small vs large government?-

Yes there are. There called Conservatives. We actually believe you have the vast right to make your own personal choices in civil moderation and not the federal government on how you live your life.


is that to everyones benefit or just the wealthy?-

If its for the wealthy than it works for everyone. Today, the top five percent of income earners in the U.S. pay 54 percent of the federal income tax. The top ten percent pay 66 percent of the federal income tax.

Better tax breaks for the big boys means more jobs for the little boys.

so is that a capitalists right to make profits regardless of the strain and pressure it puts on the lower classes in society?-

Yes. Though I really don't see what strain your trying to state. It's a free economy where a man can make or break his own fortune.

i can agree with this, but is it fair to state that we can own hundreds of Nuclear weapons but then complain when others do attempt to do the same simply by claiming that are intentions are more noble-

So what...really. It is our right as a country and superpower to complain and protect ourselves from rogue nations and terrorist supporting governments who want to arm themselves when Nuclear or WMD weapons. We must defend ourselves against all lethal threats, whatever their source. Unlike the former Soviet Union who which viewed the use of Nuclear weapons as a last resort, many rogue states see these weapons as weapons of first choice.

I could of added a lot more, in specific to taxes. But I got to go.

Cheers

[Golden Arms]

Its amazing how people can shut off logic just because they hear something they dont agree with. Just to be clear...you are the one that is pushing for more of our troops to die over there, as well as more of Iraq's people. Why do I get the feeling you arent even in the military yourself. Brave of you to volunteer other peoples lives when you arent stepping up to the plate, seems to be a pattern with this administration as well.

[SifuAbel]

I'm not going to argue on any side. What we need today is a leadership that thinks with both sides of their brains/balls.

What is winning?

Finding WMDs? Never happened. Just a pretext to go after saddam.

He may have been harboring terrorists camps but we needed proof to that effect too. Either way, this war started illegally under false pretenses. That little stitch in the fabric has been overlooked. There are no ramifications for Lieing to Congress?

Getting rid of Saddam? DEAD. DONE. Osama Ben forgotten? NEXT!!

Getting Iraq to support itself. Self fulfilling prophecy. We created the vacuum to begin with. It would of helped to have a plan in place BEFORE we went in and destroyed thier infrastucture. Haliburton to the rescue.

Get the factions to not go to civil war? Not going to happen without another saddam. oops we killed him off. We can't afford to stay there for 100 years. We can't afford it now. Afganistan was the main target terrorwise, yet we only have 10% of our man power there.

Fight them over there so we don't fight then here?

Funny how most of the early insurgency was IMPORTED from UAE. This is a biggy in my book. This where it getts really sticky. The efforts of homeland security have been so botched up with Pork and cronyism(sp?). Its a miracle that we HAVEN'T been attacked again. Holes in our armor have been reported on our own broadcast news!!!! If we spent a fraction of the money we've WASTED in iraq on a REAL homeland security budget. We just plain wouldn't need to be there.


Katrina..................................... :rolleyes:


I doesn't matter to argue with the likes of BJ II. He is in the EXTREME minority when it comes to the GOPs conduct and policy.

When the LIES outnumber the truths of an administration you know its time for change. The american people have already spoken on that issue. Bush has even stated that the outcome of this issue will be in the hands of future presidents. Meaning he will keep this horse and pony show going until he out of office so he doesn't get billed as the "surrendering" president. It won't really even matter which side gains control of the presidency. As long as its not another Bush or Cheney, it will be a different ball game.

Its not even a party issue anymore. Right or left is an illusion. Pork is pork. Both sides are guilty of it. There is nothing conservative about spending hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars on this wasted effort with no end in sight.

Fear still rules this country. It has been the basis for policy since 9/11. People actually think that if Al Gore won, we'd all be speaking arabic right now. Point in reality is, that we ARE speaking it. We (non arabs obviously) know more arab words, phrases and locations now then ever before. Which isn't so bad, we've been using arab numerals for centuries.

Now that the courts don't fear the GOP. They've rolled back the warrentless phone taps.

[golden arhat]

I only got a little bit of time. I know I am good but with all this constant switching of arguments going on and other liberal standards of practice for debating its hard to keep track of all the absurdness floating around in the air like so much stink.

Golden Arhat,

No I dont want us to win-

Above is all I got to say. Everything else out of your facist mouth is dead in the water after that. Proves my point that the only shinning light in your neck of the woods is the the eatery Salumi.


Fux,

does anyone really know the benefits of small vs large government?-

Yes there are. There called Conservatives. We actually believe you have the vast right to make your own personal choices in civil moderation and not the federal government on how you live your life.


is that to everyones benefit or just the wealthy?-

If its for the wealthy than it works for everyone. Today, the top five percent of income earners in the U.S. pay 54 percent of the federal income tax. The top ten percent pay 66 percent of the federal income tax.

Better tax breaks for the big boys means more jobs for the little boys.

so is that a capitalists right to make profits regardless of the strain and pressure it puts on the lower classes in society?-

Yes. Though I really don't see what strain your trying to state. It's a free economy where a man can make or break his own fortune.

i can agree with this, but is it fair to state that we can own hundreds of Nuclear weapons but then complain when others do attempt to do the same simply by claiming that are intentions are more noble-

So what...really. It is our right as a country and superpower to complain and protect ourselves from rogue nations and terrorist supporting governments who want to arm themselves when Nuclear or WMD weapons. We must defend ourselves against all lethal threats, whatever their source. Unlike the former Soviet Union who which viewed the use of Nuclear weapons as a last resort, many rogue states see these weapons as weapons of first choice.

I could of added a lot more, in specific to taxes. But I got to go.

Cheers

i didnt say i didnt want us to win u mistake me with someone else
we went in there nowm we should sort it out

however we shouldnt have gone their in the first place

the terrorists attack us because we attacked them first


right ok "more tax cuts for the rich guys means more jobs for the little guys"

millions unemployed, terrible economy, yeah i can see what u mean mate
silly compassionate me

it is not a free economy

most can not afford to make money
millionse poverty line through no fault of their own (downsizing etc)
blacks remain on the bottom rung of society through your opression


oh yeah and if you want proof that a left wing economy works just look at us brits here the labour party is in power
and each year since 97 the economy grows 2-3 % above inflation

my dad is a conservative (albeit a moderate) and he educates me from your point of view (well a true conservative point of view not your fundamentalist despot regime)
so i can understand your argument
u seem to have shut of logic gone back to bed and assured yourself your government is in control
read 1 just 1 of michael moores books if u are so confident in your own opinions

[Sang Feng Fan]

i didnt say i didnt want us to win u mistake me with someone else
we went in there nowm we should sort it out

however we shouldnt have gone their in the first place

the terrorists attack us because we attacked them first


right ok "more tax cuts for the rich guys means more jobs for the little guys"

millions unemployed, terrible economy, yeah i can see what u mean mate
silly compassionate me

it is not a free economy

most can not afford to make money
millionse poverty line through no fault of their own (downsizing etc)
blacks remain on the bottom rung of society through your opression


oh yeah and if you want proof that a left wing economy works just look at us brits here the labour party is in power
and each year since 97 the economy grows 2-3 % above inflation

my dad is a conservative (albeit a moderate) and he educates me from your point of view (well a true conservative point of view not your fundamentalist despot regime)
so i can understand your argument
u seem to have shut of logic gone back to bed and assured yourself your government is in control
read 1 just 1 of michael moores books if u are so confident in your own opinions

1. Neither the USA nor the British attacked "terrorists" first, Westerners have been being kidnapped, tortured and murdered by Islamic extremists for over 60 years with little to no reprisal.

2. Some American Blacks remain at the bottom rung not because of Oppression, rather because of charity. Free a man from taxes, give him free room/board and medical benefits and that's what happens. Africans, Spanish, Portuguese and Hindu's of the same skin color come here from abroad speaking another language and are doing far better in our schools and business arena than natives of any color.

3. Left Wing Economy??? The growth of the British economy beyond it's inflation rate is directly tied to their currency value being overrated because they are intent on being the last European nation to accept the Euro. Doing well by screwing your Common Market partners does not count as success story. It is also a non-repeatable strategy which will backfire in the end with a correction in the Euro value that will nearly sink the European Union in it's future.

4. Michael Moore writes entertainment pieces to make money, they are neither factual nor accurate. They are meant to generate wealth though shock and titillation. Since you are getting your data from entertainers it's surprising your post was not more entertaining.

[Black Jack II]

Sifu Abel you old dog you......you pushing vitamins now. That's my business!:D

I doesn't matter to argue with the likes of BJ II. He is in the EXTREME minority when it comes to the GOPs conduct and policy.-

Now that was just unfair and unfactual. It could be argued I fall a tad right of the middle in the GOP scale but I am not Billy Graham. Everything which my viewpoint stands for is standard middleground GOP.

In the post 9/11 era, the cost of our occupation of Iraq can't be looked at with a dollars-and-cents mentality. Whatever the costs to protect our freedoms, its a bargain.

The real question is: What would the costs be if we left Iraq? The 9/11 attacks I believe cost us $95 billion to just clean up Ground Zero. Now how much more would it cost us if a suicide bomber attacked a nuclear power plant in the U.S., or if a terrorist used a nuclear device in any major city zone?

I look at the invasion of Iraq as a investment in the Middle East-a opportunity to create a powerfull toehold and held us give "some" shape to its future. It's already working: Libyan strongman Muammar Gaddafi's decision to cooperate fully with the U.S. to ensure that Libyais rid of any weapons of mass destruction is a direct result of our actions in Iraq.

With the exception of the Athenian Greeks, democractic governments did not arise in significant numbers until the late eighteenth century and now since the American Revolution, country after country has adopted republics as a form of government. It just shows that if the people are willing...that being key...deomcracy can work in countries with no democractic tradition.

Golden Arhat,

Was going to kick myself and reply but then saw the words Micheal Moore........................lmao:p

[BoulderDawg]

The real question is: What would the costs be if we left Iraq? The 9/11 attacks I believe cost us $95 billion to just clean up Ground Zero. Now how much more would it cost us if a suicide bomber attacked a nuclear power plant in the U.S., or if a terrorist used a nuclear device in any major city zone?

How much would it cost it an asteriod hit the US or that friggin volcano exploded in Yellowstone? The chances of the attacks as you have described them have about as much chance.

The suicide bomber could probably get on the grounds of a nuclear plant but no where near the reactor to do any damage.

A nuke?:D North Korea and Iran are struggling with making one.......and there's probably a good chance both are years away from making a bomb they could actually use. And now you're telling me that some radicals living in the desert somewhere are going to use a nuke! They don't sell them at Walmart!:eek:

[SifuAbel]

Now that was just unfair and unfactual. It could be argued I fall a tad right of the middle in the GOP scale but I am not Billy Graham. Everything which my viewpoint stands for is standard middleground GOP.

A year and 1/4 ago, maybe, REP.s are no longer towing the party line as hard now that they aren't the majority. And they were slowly falling away from the Bush regime as the poll numbers dropped before that.

Congress was lied to. That doesn't bother you? Dude, you're not describing America.

This mentality that what we do as a country is beyond reproach becasue we are the kings of the world is a relic from the 50's.



In the post 9/11 era, the cost of our occupation of Iraq can't be looked at with a dollars-and-cents mentality. Whatever the costs to protect our freedoms, its a bargain.
What freedoms? If this keeps on after Bush there won't be many left. Get rid of Habeus Corpus? Please, comrad, tell us more. You miss the POINT entirely. You know how much Homeland security $$ is given to states to ACTUALLY protect our country? It isn't 95 billion and counting, thats for sure.



The real question is: What would the costs be if we left Iraq? The 9/11 attacks I believe cost us $95 billion to just clean up Ground Zero. Now how much more would it cost us if a suicide bomber attacked a nuclear power plant in the U.S., or if a terrorist used a nuclear device in any major city zone?

Here's what its cost us so far to be in iraq. http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

The point being, if we spent 400 BILLION dollars on securing our borders and revamping immigration and security, THE RIGHT WAY. We wouldn't have had a 9/11. And we certainly wouldn't be worried about another one.

Read a newspaper. Its not like a strike is not possible now. The only reason it hasn't happened is because of DOMESTIC efforts to curb terrorism. The war in Iraq hasn't produced one shred of evidence for it effectiveness as the deterent to stop terrorism or its outright legality for that matter.

Soldiers are NOT expendable. they are AMERICANS. So far, there have been over 35,000 casualties in this effort, which include the over 3500 deaths. We have already maxed out 911's numbers and more than multiplied the victim count. We haven't "saved" anything.

[Black Jack II]

Sifu Abel,

I do happen to agree with the issue of border securement. In specific in terms of illegal immigration. Bush has really failed to address the problem as hardcore as he should of.

But I disagree with the majority of your other statements. I don't see this great American political paradigm shift you and others are stating. A paradign shift is defined as a drastic change in the way the human race lives and thinks as a result of an important new discovery or development.

I am not seeing it. All I am seeing is the same group just getting to ***** even more. I will hold out to see if there is a "great shift" in events come this election. The democrats have two years to lose the small about of power they just reclaimed.

Its posts like almost all of these here in KFM that really help showcase my own personal specific points. That the liberals main contribution to the War on Terror is to act like a child in the backseat during a cross country trip-to just sit, whine and complain "Are we there yet?"

What freedoms? If this keeps on after Bush there won't be many left. Get rid of Habeus Corpus? Please, comrad, tell us more.-

Name the one person you personally know who has had been abused or oppressed by the Patriot Act. Man, that is a way overused and tired ruse by those who don't understand what the reality of the Patriot Act or the NSA Program really are.

I don't think it was the Patriot Act, which has been around for YEARS now with no evidence of supported abuses, was used to burn down a compound in Waco Texas?

[BoulderDawg]

Since you mentioned Waco, Wasn't it the government that brought in an entire SWAT team to serve a warrent on David Koresh when they could have just picked him up on one of his weekly trips to town?

Also wasn't it the government that, once again, decided to storm the compound even though they were dealing with people who were "God directed". They thought if they threw in some tear gas and banged the side of the building with a tank everyone inside would just run out with their hands up......I guess they found out.

This is one of the problems with the Bush Admin, A point that Robert McNamara discussed in the "Fog of War" is "You must know the mind of your enemy". Bush often speaks that the "terrorists" are trying to "Break the will of the American People". The truth is that is a double edged sword. Bush believed if he came over there, threw a few bombs, killed a bunch of people that everyone would just run out and scream "We surrender!".....I guess he found out.

Truth is Bush knows very little about the people in the Middle East. Hell, I'm not even sure there is anyone in the State Department that even speaks their language. Not until Bush realizes there is no "breaking of wills" and that the people will fight and die to every last man, woman and child (something Americans would never do) will he be able to deal with the situation.....Never gonna happen:D

[golden arhat]

Sifu Abel,

I do happen to agree with the issue of border securement. In specific in terms of illegal immigration. Bush has really failed to address the problem as hardcore as he should of.

But I disagree with the majority of your other statements. I don't see this great American political paradigm shift you and others are stating. A paradign shift is defined as a drastic change in the way the human race lives and thinks as a result of an important new discovery or development.

I am not seeing it. All I am seeing is the same group just getting to ***** even more. I will hold out to see if there is a "great shift" in events come this election. The democrats have two years to lose the small about of power they just reclaimed.

Its posts like almost all of these here in KFM that really help showcase my own personal specific points. That the liberals main contribution to the War on Terror is to act like a child in the backseat during a cross country trip-to just sit, whine and complain "Are we there yet?"

What freedoms? If this keeps on after Bush there won't be many left. Get rid of Habeus Corpus? Please, comrad, tell us more.-

Name the one person you personally know who has had been abused or oppressed by the Patriot Act. Man, that is a way overused and tired ruse by those who don't understand what the reality of the Patriot Act or the NSA Program really are.

I don't think it was the Patriot Act, which has been around for YEARS now with no evidence of supported abuses, was used to burn down a compound in Waco Texas?

Authority To Intercept Wire, Oral, And Electronic Communications Relating To Terrorism

they can tap your phones if they deem you a threat (whatever that may be) with out a court order to decide it
they just make up their mind and tap u
read 1984 ppl

Authority To Intercept Wire, Oral, And Electronic Communications Relating To Computer Fraud And Abuse Offenses

they can read your mail and things that are private to you and they have no right whatsoever to intrude on


Emergency Disclosure Of Electronic Communications To Protect Life And Limb
i
f they deem you a threat (that is assuming that what constitutes a threat to them is the same as yours which obviously varies from person to person) they can pass your emails on to other people who also have no right to look at your email

Authority For Delaying Notice Of The Execution Of A Warrant

they dont have to give you one till after they have searched your house

now as for the no child left behind act
under the no child left behind act (nclba) the government has the right to take any childs records from any school that recieves state asisstance and pass them on to whoever they want E.g. the military without telling the parent first




do you think thats ok ?

" he who sacrifices liberty in favour of security desrves neither"

[Black Jack II]

BoulderDawg,

Waco was WAY before Bushes time dude, that was the era of democratic bjs in the white house, Captain Clintion and liberal big government at its finest.

Which was the whole point of me putting it down. Which you seem to of glossed right over.

[BoulderDawg]

You mean the conservative Clinton Admin. I have yet to see any true liberal politicians in Washington. Clinton was one of the most conservative Presidents in recent times.

However it's good to know that you agree with the idea that Bush has completely underestimated the "enemy" he is fighting in Iraq.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The only way to win in Iraq is with Brazilian Jiujitsu.......all this watered down "machine-gunning" is something straight out of CMA....

[David Jamieson]

George W Bush and his administration are NOT conservatives. Not even close and not by any stretch of the word really.

They are running a defecit spending policy, this is completely contrary to conservative principles.

They have started a war with a pre-emptive strike based on poor intelligence and ultimately what has been shown on more than one occasion to be a lie. This is not a model of conservatism either and is especially not an example of republican ideals.

George Bush is republican in name only as is his administration and supporters. they have little if anything to do with republicanism or conservatism in an actual; sense.

What they really are is opportunistic capitalists that are almost to a man chickenhawk dodgers and backstabbing douchebags.

Real conservatives do not support this group of nut job right wing fascist idiots and those that do can be labeled with that label.

Does anyone actually know anyone that voted for this guy? :p

[BoulderDawg]

Somebody must have voted for the guy...or the rumors of widespread voter fraud is worse than we thought!:D

However, using you definition, there is no one in Washington who is a conservative or liberal. When dealing with politics these are very loose terms open to a lot of interpertation. I could pick apart anyone up there by using a strict definiton of conservative/liberal.

That said, I know of no political group that identifies itself as Conservative that did not support Bush in the last election.

Me? I could care less what Bush is or what others call him....or what he calls himself for that matter. Cheney and Bush and their ilk have to be controlled somehow. It's scary to know that this one man has the power to deploy troops anywhere in the world without the approval of congress. It's even more scary that this one man has his finger on the nuclear trigger and can use it no matter who objects.

[WinterPalm]

The only thing the Iraq war is doing is taking attention away from real issues that the Americans are facing and to which they are not doing anything about. With a dying educational and medical establishment, with poverty creeping up, and global catastrophe looming (think New Orleans), the leaders of America would rather send millions of dollars into Iraq to overthrow the government and instate a friendly version that will not last under immense public pressure.
I for one could care less about Iraq. How about America deals with its own issues first? There are more pressing things than the middle east. Let's work on education, poverty, democracy, etc, at home!

[lunghushan]

Does anyone actually know anyone that voted for this guy? :p

Yeah, I know lots of people because they thought he looked good compared to Kerry who changed his mind every 5 minutes.

Boy are they sorry now. I run into only about 10% of Bush supporters anymore and those are mostly card carrying NRA members.

It really seems the only thing that could help the Republicans now is if Clinton really runs, because she's a total joke and would make almost any Republican candidate look better.

[BoulderDawg]

It really seems the only thing that could help the Republicans now is if Clinton really runs, because she's a total joke and would make almost any Republican candidate look better.

I'm just wondering why Clinton is a "Total Joke".

I'm not supporting her because she's waaay too conservative. For that matter there will be no one that will run that I will support.

I'm just wondering why Clinton is seen in this light. She's never made a serious misstep and she seems to do her job about as well as any senator.

[lunghushan]

I'm just wondering why Clinton is a "Total Joke".

I'm not supporting her because she's waaay too conservative. For that matter there will be no one that will run that I will support.

I'm just wondering why Clinton is seen in this light. She's never made a serious misstep and she seems to do her job about as well as any senator.

Well, as a voter and as a citizen, I find nothing in Clinton except a lawyer and a career politician. In other words, she seems like nothing but hot air.

As a voter and a citizen, I'd rather have somebody running the country with some substance to their lives rather than pandering to whatever special interests happen to be paying them the most campaign $ at the moment.

Of course, I don't expect any politicians to be like this, so IMHO you can just fire the entire lot of them. Except for a few people that I happen to respect just because they walked the walk, like McCain, for the most part politicians are all worthless beings.

[rogue]

I voted for Bush.

And BTW, he's still saving your ass.

Anybody care to say what Nancy Pelosi is doing to save your ass?

[lunghushan]

I voted for Bush, and he's still saving your ass.

Anybody care to say what Nancy Pelosi is doing to save your ass?

The only reason there aren't terror attacks is because some people are doing their jobs, the people in the trenches, and it sure isn't Bush.

Yeah, Pelosi is another bag of hot air. Boxer, Feinstein ... I can't stand the lot of them.

Bottom line and I'll be really candid -- I don't like the Democrats because they are stupid and corrupt and pander to special interests. I don't like the Republicans because they are stupid and corrupt and pander to special interests, and they are run by the entire 'New American Century' thing.

I think we need a new party made up of responsible people who don't pander to special interests, continue to fight terrorism, don't fight stupid wars, don't vote for every numbskull liberal ideal, don't try to force religion down our throats while upholding the constitution.

A party of people with some substance to their lives who aren't career politicians.

I don't think we'll get it.

[BoulderDawg]

Except for a few people that I happen to respect just because they walked the walk, like McCain, for the most part politicians are all worthless beings.

I got a good chuckle out of that!:D I've never seen a man that has sacrificed his principles to run for president as much as McCain.

I remember during the 2000 Primaries a vet (or at least I guess he was) got up at a Bush rally and questioned McCain's patriotism. Just like was done with Max Cleland. Yet McCain, when it was over, even campaigned for Bush in the general election....anything for the party I guess. McCain has hardly "walked the walk". And just because he spent years as a POW it doesn't qualitfy him to be president.

[BoulderDawg]

I voted for Bush.

And BTW, he's still saving your ass.

Tell that to the families of the 25 Americans who died in Iraq this week.

[lunghushan]

I got a good chuckle out of that!:D I've never seen a man that has sacrificed his principles to run for president as much as McCain.

I remember during the 2000 Primaries a vet (or at least I guess he was) got up at a Bush rally and questioned McCain's patriotism. Just like was done with Max Cleland. Yet McCain, when it was over, even campaigned for Bush in the general election....anything for the party I guess. McCain has hardly "walked the walk". And just because he spent years as a POW it doesn't qualitfy him to be president.

McCain is a company guy, but at least he lived life. I'd vote for McCain or Powell or any armed forces guy over a pansy Daddy's boy who has been coddled for his entire life.

Bottom line is I think the way the system is set up now with public stupidity and campaign $$$ that it's hopelessly corrupt and broken. So I kindof ignore politics now.

Except that I think we should get some better looking people in there because I'm tired of Bush and these wrinkly old women. I think we should get somebody better looking in there. Like Jessica Simpson or some supermodels.

If you have to listen to an idiot give a canned speech they didn't even write themself, I'd rather have a paid actor in there who is at least decent looking than somebody who is old and ugly.

[lunghushan]

Anyways, I think the Democratic nomination will come down to Obama vs. Clinton. Neither of them can I really stand.

Obama has the pedigree, the looks and the intelligence, but listening to his speeches he's just as much career politician as anybody else. He's very careful in his wording and calculated in his approach. But at least he can think on his feet and he sounds much better than somebody like Bush, for example, in interviews.

Republicans -- I have no clue who will come forward. It seems like they will be severely weakened by Iraq and all the scandals. I don't think they have a chance unless something changes drastically, like some new major threat or some serious progress in Iraq.

Oh, and BTW, I can always tell who is going to win by the Grandmothers poll. That's the other reason I don't think the Republicans have a chance. Because they both think that Bush is bad right now and the Republicans have given too much to the rich while fighting a stupid war.

Anyways, perhaps Giuliani if he runs will make some headway. I don't think McCain stands a chance in hell of winning. He doesn't have the charisma.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by rogue View Post
I voted for Bush.

And BTW, he's still saving your ass.


Tell that to the families of the 25 Americans who died in Iraq this week.

Wham!!!! Good shot. And I guess Bush couldn't save the estimated 655,000 Iraq men, women, and children either. Oh, but what am I saying. Those people don't matter as much as Americans do, right? (I'm sure that's what most uber right wingers would try and point out if they had the gall)

[Black Jack II]

I was done with this topic. The level of vapid leftist guttercheese in here is as bad as in a San Fran starbucks.

But since I saw the post I will say it as baby I got the ****in gal.

Those people don't matter as much as Americans do, right? (I'm sure that's what most uber right wingers would try and point out if they had the gall)-

No sir they don't. Not in the long run if it comes down to my familys wellfare and that of our country. It sucks when civilans die in a war but war has never been clean.

[BoulderDawg]

Wham!!!! Good shot. And I guess Bush couldn't save the estimated 655,000 Iraq men, women, and children either. Oh, but what am I saying. Those people don't matter as much as Americans do, right? (I'm sure that's what most uber right wingers would try and point out if they had the gall)

I've long since gave up hope these conservatives would have the least bit of empathy.

Of course the old Bush argument is "fight them here or there". When, in truth, I heard of no Iraqi plan to invade the US. This is just recycled domino theory.

[BoulderDawg]

Anyways, perhaps Giuliani if he runs will make some headway. I don't think McCain stands a chance in hell of winning. He doesn't have the charisma.

I don't think Mayor Rudy has a chance. What is it now? Is it two failed marriages or is it up to three? With his kids running amok! It's a little hard to run on family values.

The Republican side is wide open....This is the reason I still think Cheney will run. If not Cheney it could be anybody. In any case whoever it is will be ultra ULTRA conservative. It would not even surprise me to see my old college buddy Ralph Reed get into the race.

[lunghushan]

I don't think Mayor Rudy has a chance. What is it now? Is it two failed marriages or is it up to three? With his kids running amok! It's a little hard to run on family values.

The Republican side is wide open....This is the reason I still think Cheney will run. If not Cheney it could be anybody. In any case whoever it is will be ultra ULTRA conservative. It would not even surprise me to see my old college buddy Ralph Reed get into the race.

I dunno ... Rudy's got charisma and he's considered a hero after 9/11, so I think he stands as good a chance as any.

Cheney ... I don't think the Republicans stand a chance with Cheney. He's not decent looking, he's got a lesbian daughter and he's got a bad ticker that could go at any moment.

Who else is there ... Powell won't run because he doesn't want the stress (smart guy). I think he'd have a good chance, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008

Main article: Official and Potential 2008 United States presidential election Republican candidates

Official candidates who have filed with the FEC for the Republican Party:

* John H. Cox of Illinois (Campaign Site)

Candidates who have formed exploratory committees:

* Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas (Exploratory Committee)
* Former Governor Jim Gilmore of Virginia[10]
* Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani of New York (Exploratory Committee)
* Representative Duncan Hunter of California (Exploratory Committee)[11]
* Senator John McCain of Arizona (Exploratory Committee)
* Representative Ron Paul of Texas (Exploratory Committee)
* Former Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts (Exploratory Committee)
* Representative Tom Tancredo of Colorado (Exploratory Committee)
* Former Governor Tommy Thompson of Wisconsin (Exploratory Committee)

Candidates who have expressed serious interest:

* Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich of Georgia (Winning the Future)[12]
* Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska (Sandhills PAC)[13]
* Former Governor Mike Huckabee of Arkansas (Hope for America PAC)[14]
* Former Governor George Pataki of New York (21st Century Freedom PAC)[15]

I'd say Giuliani has the most star power of the bunch with McCain a close second, but McCain's got that lump on his face and isn't really a powerful speaker. Somebody who once interviewed him right after interviewing Bill Clinton said that McCain looked like death warmed over. All that torture obviously took its toll on his health.

Other than that, IMHO Pataki and Gingrich have the most star power, but Gingrich is kindof a freak ... Pataki could be just because I used to live in NY.

I think the strongest ticket out of this would be Giuliani as Pres and McCain as V.P.

[lunghushan]

I was done with this topic. The level of vapid leftist guttercheese in here is as bad as in a San Fran starbucks.

But since I saw the post I will say it as baby I got the ****in gal.

Those people don't matter as much as Americans do, right? (I'm sure that's what most uber right wingers would try and point out if they had the gall)-

No sir they don't. Not in the long run if it comes down to my familys wellfare and that of our country. It sucks when civilans die in a war but war has never been clean.

And those sentiments are about 80% of the reason most of the world hates and fears us at the moment. The other 15% being American trash culture, I guess. The other 5% probably depends upon the country.

[rogue]

And those sentiments are about 80% of the reason most of the world hates and fears us at the moment. The other 15% being American trash culture, I guess. The other 5% probably depends upon the country.

Yes America is evil. Unlike China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Russia, Sudan. Yup, we be the reason for all the bad in the world.


I've long since gave up hope these conservatives would have the least bit of empathy.
Ever have to break the news to someone that a man he was close to was taken out by a road side bomb? Ever have to do it twice?

Just keep the liberal hate going guys, it's really getting us places. Al Qeda loves ya!


Goodness is it fun to watch liberals get themselves worked up.

[golden arhat]

I think we need a new party made up of responsible people who don't pander to special interests, continue to fight terrorism, don't fight stupid wars, don't vote for every numbskull liberal ideal, don't try to force religion down our throats while upholding the constitution.

A party of people with some substance to their lives who aren't career politicians.

I don't think we'll get it.

so do i man
so do i

[golden arhat]

maybe we shouldnt pay the politicians more than minimum wagethen it wont be about the money and they can see how hard it is to live like that

[BoulderDawg]

maybe we shouldnt pay the politicians more than minimum wage then it wont be about the money and they can see how hard it is to live like that


They wouldn't bat an eye.

Do you actually think the elected officials in Washington live on the money paid to them by the government?:D

Most are rich and the ones that are just "well off" probably have money coming in for a dozen different places. Ever notice how easy it is for a family member of a Washington politician to find a job.

[BoulderDawg]

Ever have to break the news to someone that a man he was close to was taken out by a road side bomb? Ever have to do it twice?


I'm assuming this man that was taken out by the roadside bomb was not in Iowa, New Mexico or any other state. Let me take a wild guess and say he was in Iraq.

Had he been in his home country, where he should have been, there is a very good chance he would still be alive.

[golden arhat]

I'm assuming this man that was taken out by the roadside bomb was not in Iowa, New Mexico or any other state. Let me take a wild guess and say he was in Iraq.

Had he been in his home country, where he should have been, there is a very good chance he would still be alive.

exactly
and yeah my last comment was a bit uninformed

[rogue]

I'm assuming this man that was taken out by the roadside bomb was not in Iowa, New Mexico or any other state. Let me take a wild guess and say he was in Iraq.

Had he been in his home country, where he should have been, there is a very good chance he would still be alive.

Whoops, my bad. I forgot the quality and quantity of the brain trust posting here. :o

Carry on oh sages of the forums, and watch out for that mental heavy lifting.

[golden arhat]

Whoops, my bad. I forgot the quality and quantity of the brain trust posting here. :o

Carry on oh sages of the forums, and watch out for that mental heavy lifting.

u didnt adress that post at all
yet u still quote it

how intelligsnt is that
fukin conservative ba stard

[lunghushan]

Yes America is evil. Unlike China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Russia, Sudan. Yup, we be the reason for all the bad in the world.

Just keep the liberal hate going guys, it's really getting us places. Al Qeda loves ya!


Goodness is it fun to watch liberals get themselves worked up.

Seriously, man, I'm not a liberal. I'm pro-gun, pro-abortion. I dislike both Dems and Cons equally because they are obviously in the pocket of corporations. Liberalism has nothing to do with it.

Ever ask somebody from another country what they think of the U.S.? Golden Arhat is from another country. I've done polls of people from other countries.

The rest of the world FEARS the U.S. because the U.S. has a HUGE arsenal. Thousands of nuclear weapons, 7 carrier battle groups, a ton of submarines and planes, and because of sentiments like you said (hundreds of thousands of Iraqis aren't worth 1 American life), it shows the U.S. doesn't care and isn't afraid to use the weapons on innocent people.

So they are AFRAID of us. They don't like us because they're afraid we're out of control.

[lunghushan]

I mean, consider this Iraq war. Was Iraq a terrorism breeding ground? No. It was not over-run by Osama bin Laden. It was being run by a ruthless dictator (previously supported by the CIA ... notice a pattern anywhere? Taliban was also prevoiusly supported by the CIA ... Pinochet previously supported by the CIA ... ).

So for a little country of 20 some million people, not directly involved in the 9/11 attacks, we decide to go in there and bomb a ton of targets, destroy infrastructure (infrastructure is what people rely on for their LIVES -- food, water, little things like that), all without world support, the approval of the U.N. or anything.

That's what is known as being out of control.

So other countries worry the same thing could happen to them. They think the U.S. is out of control, and that's probably about 80% of the reason they hate and fear the U.S. It's got nothing to do with terrorism, nothing to do with liberals, nothing to do with cons or any of that. It has to do with a lack of caring about our position in the world, a lack of caring for the rest of the world, and a cowboy mentality openly promoted by none other than the President, George Bush.

[golden arhat]

ok here is one (my own ) opinion of the US
and by the way most people here feel the same

we are tired of being used as an aircraft carrier
we are tired of being your puppet
we are tired of this "special" relationship
we are tired of being dragged into wars
we are tired of watching images on the news of what your air force (and ours) has done to innocent people (and btw what u see on ur news channels is basically the state sponsored video game version of iraq)
we see innocents slaughtered every day on the news and then have to listen to our leaders say its for freedom
we are tired of your GUNG HO attitude towards everything
we dont like being bombed primarily because of YOUR foreign policy
(btw a new terrorist plot is foiled here just about every month its only a matter of time before they strike again)



i dont hate the americans as they are just people after all i hate the american government what it stands for
and i hate your media and what it does to the people

and i hate what uve made our once great nation and empire become

[lunghushan]

Yeah, that pretty much sums up the views of Chinese, Indian, French and Canadian that I've polled with some differences per the country -- like Chinese don't worry so much about terror attacks. Indians have their own problems with terror attacks not really related to U.S. policy.

Basically to sum it up the U.S. is kindof way too arrogant.

[Yao Sing]

Bush Continues To Unite
The World - Against Him (http://www.rense.com/general75/bushsh.htm)

"The survey, which polled more than 26,000 people in 25 countries, including the U.S., between November and January, found that a 49 percent plurality overall believes the U.S. is playing a "mainly negative" role in the world today, compared to less than a third (32 percent) who said Washington's influence was "mainly positive."

[golden arhat]

They wouldn't bat an eye.

Do you actually think the elected officials in Washington live on the money paid to them by the government?:D

Most are rich and the ones that are just "well off" probably have money coming in for a dozen different places. Ever notice how easy it is for a family member of a Washington politician to find a job.

u know all they have to do is vote and they can raise their own wages i wish i could do that man

[Siu Lum Fighter]

originally posted by golden arhat
and i hate what uve made our once great nation and empire become

Interesting that you you term the U.S. as an "empire." Just because, fundamentally, that's not what it's supposed to be, but, in fact, that's exactly what it is. Most people in Africa and the Middle East can point to both the U.S. and Britain as the reasons why there is so much poverty and turmoil in their countries. Ours is an empire with the friendly face of American corporatism all over it. It's all about controling the resources of the planet and either enslaving or killing off the opposition.

That's what this war is all about. Money, resources, and power. You'd have to be a d@mn fool not to see that. Anyone who tries to say that it's to "fight terrorism" is either in total denial or they just don't care and/or aren't paying attention when people like George Tenet himself (the former head of the CIA) said that Iraq had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden or Al Queda.

[lonewolf]

so the new iraq government is looking to sign a bill into law allowing foreign investors to buy into their state run oil opperations. do we now see the real reason for bombing innocent people and risking the balance that was set in the middle east. i wonder who is going to be the first people to start pumping money into iraq. the american people spend hundreds of billions rebuilding and paying for a war nobody but the bible thumpers wanted and the only people that profit from this aren't the iraqis but the same people that sent troops in to slaughter them. new modern age, same old tricks.:mad:

[rogue]

ok here is one (my own ) opinion of the US
and by the way most people here feel the same

we are tired of being used as an aircraft carrier
we are tired of being your puppet
we are tired of this "special" relationship
we are tired of being dragged into wars
we are tired of watching images on the news of what your air force (and ours) has done to innocent people (and btw what u see on ur news channels is basically the state sponsored video game version of iraq)
we see innocents slaughtered every day on the news and then have to listen to our leaders say its for freedom
we are tired of your GUNG HO attitude towards everything
we dont like being bombed primarily because of YOUR foreign policy
(btw a new terrorist plot is foiled here just about every month its only a matter of time before they strike again)



i dont hate the americans as they are just people after all i hate the american government what it stands for
and i hate your media and what it does to the people

and i hate what uve made our once great nation and empire become

Bwahahahahahahaha. You've made yourselves what ever you are. Look in the mirror if you want to see who the real problem is.


Most people in Africa and the Middle East can point to both the U.S. and Britain as the reasons why there is so much poverty and turmoil in their countries.
Of course all the problems in the Middle East and Africa has nothing to do with the people who live there. Lord only knows what kind of paradise they'd make without us evil Americans.:D

[lunghushan]

That's what this war is all about. Money, resources, and power. You'd have to be a d@mn fool not to see that.

I think we better stop talking about that because otherwise they won't get any more people to 'volunteer'.