Newbie Questions

[hinokata]

First off, thank you for taking the time to read the sections below. If you have a productive answer or some useful knowledge that you would care to share, please do so. :) The purpose of this post is to gather information from people whom have far more knowledge than I do on the subject. I would hate to not train with this person if it is a case of my lack of knowledge and prejudice preventing me from taking a wonderful opertunity. I have tried to be open minded in my sections labeled (counter), but IMHO, one can never be truly open minded, as experience and prejudice will always influence your mind to some degree.

Brief History:
- About 22 years total in martial arts training. Ninjutsu, Karate, Jujitsu and Aikido being the most training/heaviest influences. As you can see, mostly Japanese, traditional arts. (Yes I know you're screaming karate is Japanese, you dummy!, but I have a reason to say that this form is not quite Japanese ;) )

Tonight:
I have to say the gentleman was very nice, and very knowledgeable in a scholarly fashion. He seemed to know all about meridians, chi, histories, etc. I have only the books I have purchased to go by regarding these arts however, so my knowledge is limited at best.

My Concerns:
1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded.

(counter) - I don't really have one for this. Possible bad judgment on my part of his breathing techniques? (Granted, I personally think this is a long stretch)

2. I told him that I had a question for him, and in all honesty it was a trick question. He told me to go ahead and ask, so I asked him to apply a Chin Na technique to either my arm, upper body, or fingers if he could. He attempted 4-5 times and I *very* easily countered them. I almost put him in a finger lock (habit) but caught myself. I then consiously resisted the urge to defend myself and he still could not apply the technique to the point where I could feel any pain.

(counter) I am *very* flexible in my upper body and extremities. I also have a huge pain tolerance, and generally (most)pressure points do not work on me. Some of that is due to training, and partly due to nerve damage. An additional aspect is that perhaps I have a complete misunderstanding of Chin Na in the first place. I DO understand that ever hold has a counter, etc, but my personal opinion is that should I, coming from a vastly different style be able to counter all of his techniques so easily? My understanding is that "Chin Na" means "to seize and control", yet he was unable to do either.

3. He seems to focus much more on the spiritual/meditation aspects than the martial ones.

(counter) This could be that the concepts in Internal CMA are so different that I am unable to recognize the benefits down the road after years of training. I would like to point out that JMA is NOT without it's use of chi(ki) and usages, so it's not exactly a foreign concept to me.

4. He said there is an Orthadox 37 form type of taijiquan, which according to my books, there is only 24, 48, and 108 posture forms.

(counter) This could very well be my lack of knowledge of CMA in general or that I misread something.

Tonight's Lessons:
I would like to point out that I am not disagreeing with the following statements, but my training has always taught me this is body dynamics and has very little to do with chi.

1. He stated that and standard horse stance allows an equal amount of Yin and Yang chi to circulate throughout the body.

2. Open Horse stance - Chi flows downward into the ground providing you with better stability.

3. Closed Horse Stance - Chi flows up from the ground and into your fists, allowing harder/faster strikes, but at the cost of stability.

4. I was started with the "Hub and Spoke Qigong" drills, is that a normal starting step?

Again, in case anything I said above is misinterpreted, I have NOTHING against CMA, I am NOT looking for a style ****ing match, but I AM looking for useful and knowledgable information that will help on my path to learning Taijiquan.

Thank you again for you time, and any useful input that you can provide.

[bamboo_ leaf]

It would seem that you really are just looking to validate what you know. After 22yrs in something how is it that you don’t understand what didn’t find.

[hinokata]

It would seem that you really are just looking to validate what you know.

In a way, yes. But more importantly, I am trying to make sure that it's not something that I *think* I know when in reality it is just something that I do not understand, hence why I asked for advice from people who know more than I.


After 22yrs in something how is it that you don’t understand what didn’t find.

Because I have 0 years experience in CMA which is very different from what I do know. If I were looking for a JMA school, I wouldn't need advice. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi hinokata,

It isn’t surprising that you were able to counter the china na techniques. If you have a good foundation and understanding of the basic principles of Aikido you should be able to counter chin na techniques. However, it is better to allow the teacher to demonstrate his techniques without too much resistance from you. You will not learn or understand his method of application if you do not allow him to apply them.

Just because he cannot apply the technique on you does not mean you or he could not apply it on another person. There is a difference between a learning/teaching circumstance and a practical application. Many techniques if applied with concentrated effort on a resisting opponent will cause injury, so I would not necessarily discount a technique’s efficacy or the instructor’s ability to apply it just because you are able to counter the technique. There is no chin na/Aikido technique that cannot be countered; every technique has a weakness.

I have had many students who chose to mess up the technique I am attempting to demonstrate for them and/or the class. If I force the technique to make my point the student may become injured and get upset. If I hurt them they do not understand that it was their own poor attitude the brought on the consequence. Therefore, when a student attempts to mess with the technique I am demonstrating I simply move to another technique that takes advantage of their resistance in a manner that assists the new technique. When they get upset I scold them by telling them they got what they asked for when they chose to interfere with my demonstration. I teach them to first learn the technique without resistance. After the technique has been learned and can be applied with a certain competence, THEN mess with your opponent in order to learn the technique’s limitations and what to do to counter resistance during of the application.

Your instructor’s focus on the spiritual aspects is not necessarily the attitude of all other instructors in that art. It is a highly individual decision influenced by the history of the school branch the instructor teaches, the instructor’s personality, personal goals, and the experience he has. Many, if not most, Tai Chi practitioners tend to focus on the spiritual or health aspects of Tai Chi just as many Aikido practitioners and some branches of Aikido focus on the spiritual aspects of Aikido. But some instructors and school branches also focus on the martial aspects just as some Aikido branches (Yoshinkan) focus on the more practical martial aspects of their art.

I personally agree with you concerning the horse stance comments. It is body mechanics that provides the effects that result. However, you may consider the comments about Chi as just another manner of explaining/describing the same phenomenon. “When your weight is balanced, your stance is stable”, is merely another way of saying, “When your Yin and Yang are balanced, your stance is harmonious.” If I say, “When you push off the ground with your rear foot and transfer the force up through your body in a wave like motion to the impact zone of your fist, you will generate greater force”, it is the same as saying, “A stance in harmony with Yin and Yang allows the Chi to flow from the ground, through your rear foot, through your body, and out your hand, increasing your impact force.”

It is merely a different manner of expressing the same principles, but according to a different traditional perspective.

[hinokata]

Hi hinokata,
It isn’t surprising that you were able to counter the china na techniques. If you have a good foundation and understanding of the basic principles of Aikido you should be able to counter chin na techniques.

That is good to know. I think in retrospect that I had unrealistic expectations of Chin Na influenced by ignorance and too many Kung Fu movies.


However, it is better to allow the teacher to demonstrate his techniques without too much resistance from you. You will not learn or understand his method of application if you do not allow him to apply them.

I was not clear enough in the initial description. This was not a case where he was going to teach me a Chin Na technique, it was a case where I was supposed to counter it. I understand that it is of little to no learning value if I activly resist while he is trying to teach me something. I personally also view it as a bit disrespectful.


Just because he cannot apply the technique on you does not mean you or he could not apply it on another person. There is a difference between a learning/teaching circumstance and a practical application.

Of this I am very aware.


Many techniques if applied with concentrated effort on a resisting opponent will cause injury, so I would not necessarily discount a technique’s efficacy or the instructor’s ability to apply it just because you are able to counter the technique.

Again, I understand this, although it is good to point it out.


There is no chin na/Aikido technique that cannot be countered; every technique has a weakness.

I would go so far as to say there is no technique from any style that can not be countered, not just limit it to Chin Na/Aikido.


I have had many students who chose to mess up the technique I am attempting to demonstrate for them and/or the class. If I force the technique to make my point the student may become injured and get upset. If I hurt them they do not understand that it was their own poor attitude the brought on the consequence. Therefore, when a student attempts to mess with the technique I am demonstrating I simply move to another technique that takes advantage of their resistance in a manner that assists the new technique. When they get upset I scold them by telling them they got what they asked for when they chose to interfere with my demonstration. I teach them to first learn the technique without resistance. After the technique has been learned and can be applied with a certain competence, THEN mess with your opponent in order to learn the technique’s limitations and what to do to counter resistance during of the application.

That is a great teaching method, and I have to admit that it has been used on me quite a few times in the past. The point of this particular Chin Na exercise is that I was under the faulty impresion that Chin Na would be in some shape or form superior to my previous grappling training. Now I understand that it is simple a different path up the same mountain.


Your instructor’s focus on the spiritual aspects is not necessarily the attitude of all other instructors in that art. It is a highly individual decision influenced by the history of the school branch the instructor teaches, the instructor’s personality, personal goals, and the experience he has. Many, if not most, Tai Chi practitioners tend to focus on the spiritual or health aspects of Tai Chi just as many Aikido practitioners and some branches of Aikido focus on the spiritual aspects of Aikido.

This is a very good point. I originally posted this because I was not sure if it was case where he focuses of the spiritual aspects, or it was a case of I'm just too much of a beginner to see down the path the teacher is trying to take me. I think that I may need to re-evaluate what exactly I think the internal arts should be, as opposed to what they actually are.


But some instructors and school branches also focus on the martial aspects just as some Aikido branches (Yoshinkan) focus on the more practical martial aspects of their art.

That is a very good point. I've met many people under the false impression that Aikido is simply a "tree hugger" type of spiritual awareness, where no one gets harmed, etc.


I personally agree with you concerning the horse stance comments. It is body mechanics that provides the effects that result. However, you may consider the comments about Chi as just another manner of explaining/describing the same phenomenon. “When your weight is balanced, your stance is stable”, is merely another way of saying, “When your Yin and Yang are balanced, your stance is harmonious.” If I say, “When you push off the ground with your rear foot and transfer the force up through your body in a wave like motion to the impact zone of your fist, you will generate greater force”, it is the same as saying, “A stance in harmony with Yin and Yang allows the Chi to flow from the ground, through your rear foot, through your body, and out your hand, increasing your impact force.”

This is one thing that I was really not sure of. Now an additional question I have, is that will furture lessons in CMA explain body dynamics using chi as opposed to body dynamics? I JMA, body dynamics and ki are often times seperated to a point. It's always there, but you do not learn to manipulate it till you have progressed a ways. For example, if we took the horse stance above, when you begin they tell you it help maintain your balance evenly. More advanced, your body dynamics allow for a more solid stance. Advanced, now that you have the body dynamics down, focus your ki into the ground as if they were roots to gain additional stability. From this example, you can see that the ki and the body dynamics work together, but are different. Another example is Aikido's "immovable arm".


It is merely a different manner of expressing the same principles, but according to a different traditional perspective.

I would like to thank you very much for this very informative post as well as taking the time to read and respond to newbie's questions, I appreciate it.

[NewToChen]

I don't really know what makes a good tai chi teacher, but I do have alot of experience(through my job of trying to mediate the esuing disputes) of business deals gone bad.

It is astounding how often I hear litanies of questions and misgivings that people felt before a given deal, and they go ahead anyway. In many cases, exactly what they feared would happen and be a problem happens, and is a problem. Not always, but enough that it forms a distinct and regular pattern in my experience. The ones who walk away from deals that give them the heebeejeebees don't have to call me, the ones who don't do.

The guy could be objectively the best teacher in the world, if he gives you the heebeejeebees, walk and find a teacher that doesn't.


That is also good advice when buying a car.:)

[Songwind]

I have to agree with the earlier reply that 22 years of experience including aikido should make you quite a handful for anyone trying to use chin na on you. :) Particularly in a "use chin na on me" set up as opposed to finding an opportunity and trying it during push hands or sparring or whatever.

Being winded after the short form doesn't sound too good, but there are a lot of reasons that could be the case. I wouldn't worry too much about that unless it showed itself to be a ongoing thing. Maybe he has a cold, or had already worked out very hard before you showed up, or something like that.

As for the focus on spiritual and health aspects - that may well be. It doesn't mean the class would be a waste for you, even if you are interested in applications. Body mechanics, preparation, sung, etc are all necessary grounding steps. You could get great body method and form training from someone like that and then move on to another teacher to work on applications. Of course, if there's a more martially oriented teacher readily available it's just as well to skip the middle man, unless the available health-oriented teacher has obviously better body method. Did you ask him explicitly if he taught applications?

[hinokata]

I have to agree with the earlier reply that 22 years of experience including aikido should make you quite a handful for anyone trying to use chin na on you. :)

Yeah, I don't like to be grabbed. :) I think this might have been a case that I had unreal expectations, I suppose somewhat of a reverse prejudice in that I just assumed that Chin Na was going to be superior to jujitsu/aikido. I forgot the fact that a MA is just a MA, and that they all have thier strengths and weaknesses, regardless of origins.


Particularly in a "use chin na on me" set up as opposed to finding an opportunity and trying it during push hands or sparring or whatever.

I'll readily agree that it was not a "fair" test, but I did expect to be put in my place.


Being winded after the short form doesn't sound too good, but there are a lot of reasons that could be the case. I wouldn't worry too much about that unless it showed itself to be a ongoing thing. Maybe he has a cold, or had already worked out very hard before you showed up, or something like that.

That is a good point, and one that I had failed to consider.


As for the focus on spiritual and health aspects - that may well be. It doesn't mean the class would be a waste for you, even if you are interested in applications. Body mechanics, preparation, sung, etc are all necessary grounding steps. You could get great body method and form training from someone like that and then move on to another teacher to work on applications.

Ok, this is where it is a bit fuzzy for me. Is it fairly easy to adapt from the "spiritual" forms into the applications when the time comes to move on? I would hate to get into a spot where I have to fight my own muscle memory because the practice/teaching was for a different purpose.


Of course, if there's a more martially oriented teacher readily available it's just as well to skip the middle man, unless the available health-oriented teacher has obviously better body method.

That is part of the problem. This teacher is the best that I have found thus far, one group actually lists it as a scientific experiment, and most of the others are hippie feel-good types. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just not what I am looking for. To each his own.


Did you ask him explicitly if he taught applications?

Yes I did. He says that he does, and showed me a few forms involving martial moves. I'm a little fuzy on the correct names, but I think some of them were "cannon fist", "Black dragon whips tail", "Black dragon strikes (something)", "8 directional palm". Pretty much the ones I recognized were "Grasp sparrow's tail", "part wild horse's mane", and "playing the lute", which are all contained in the books I have. Granted, I also do not have them all memorized.

Thank you very much for responding and pointing out something that I failed to find on my own.

[hinokata]

I don't really know what makes a good tai chi teacher, but I do have alot of experience(through my job of trying to mediate the esuing disputes) of business deals gone bad.

It is astounding how often I hear litanies of questions and misgivings that people felt before a given deal, and they go ahead anyway. In many cases, exactly what they feared would happen and be a problem happens, and is a problem. Not always, but enough that it forms a distinct and regular pattern in my experience. The ones who walk away from deals that give them the heebeejeebees don't have to call me, the ones who don't do.

The guy could be objectively the best teacher in the world, if he gives you the heebeejeebees, walk and find a teacher that doesn't.


That is also good advice when buying a car.:)

Good advice in general and usually I would follow that. What I am trying to avoid is making a judgement on something that I really don't have enough knowledge of to make a sound judgement call on. Thank you for input though :)

[qiew]

4. He said there is an Orthadox 37 form type of taijiquan, which according to my books, there is only 24, 48, and 108 posture forms.



Cheng Man-ch'ing 鄭曼青 was the 4th generation of Yang Taichi. He shortened Yang long form to 37 steps (short form). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch%27ing
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/aspects.htm

Orthodox??????????

[RonH]

Ok, this is where it is a bit fuzzy for me. Is it fairly easy to adapt from the "spiritual" forms into the applications when the time comes to move on? I would hate to get into a spot where I have to fight my own muscle memory because the practice/teaching was for a different purpose.

It's easy. The type of taiji student you want to be (more towards a pacifist or the warrior) will determine how you use the spiritual parts.


That is part of the problem. This teacher is the best that I have found thus far, one group actually lists it as a scientific experiment, and most of the others are hippie feel-good types. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just not what I am looking for. To each his own.

Then, of the few that remain, who's the best of them?


Yes I did. He says that he does, and showed me a few forms involving martial moves. I'm a little fuzy on the correct names, but I think some of them were "cannon fist", "Black dragon whips tail", "Black dragon strikes (something)", "8 directional palm". Pretty much the ones I recognized were "Grasp sparrow's tail", "part wild horse's mane", and "playing the lute", which are all contained in the books I have. Granted, I also do not have them all memorized.

Don't worry about memorizing all of their names. So many people have different names for each one, it gets annoying. I gave up on trying to learn all their names long ago.


1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded.

It could have just been heavy breathing. It happens to me, but I'm hardly winded. Normally, it's a sign that I'm getting reved up and just feel so pumped, my body wants more oxygen.


4. I was started with the "Hub and Spoke Qigong" drills, is that a normal starting step?

It wasn't for me. My profe would routinely speak of spiritual sayings in class, bringing up ones relevent to what was happening in the moment, but he focused more on us loosening up and learning how to get the moves right. From there, he left it up to the student where they wanted to take it, either to continue it, as an exercise or take it to its martial ending. Other teachers will start right off with the energetic aspects, but some don't want that and keep it to an exercise or want it for just the body mechanics of the martial part, but they'd do better with an external style because what they're looking for is not gonna come to them by ignoring the energetic part.

[Songwind]

Ok, this is where it is a bit fuzzy for me. Is it fairly easy to adapt from the "spiritual" forms into the applications when the time comes to move on? I would hate to get into a spot where I have to fight my own muscle memory because the practice/teaching was for a different purpose.

You shouldn't have to change anything if this guy is teaching properly. The same body mechanics that allow you to generate internal power and all that are the same things that are so good for you. For example, "Repulse Monkey" opens up the chest, exercises the waist, stretches the calves and hips, etc. It also teaches you to retreat while staying rooted and sets you up for a simultaneous parry & counter, among other things. A health-oriented teacher isn't going to spend a lot of time with you practicing that parry & counter, but the movements will be the same.

For someone who hasn't done IMA before, just getting your body to change the way you need it to is a big step. Getting used to the way your body is aligned, opening the hips, rounding the crotch, hollow chest, all that stuff, can be rough when you first start. Any properly taught t'ai chi form should be good for that, even if after it's over he just goes on to qigong instead of push hands and sparring.

Oh, and as far as starting with qigong - what kind was it? That set is not one I am familiar with, but if it's intended to get your body ready for the form, it seems like a good place to start. There are a lot of different approaches to this. My first teacher had us spend what felt like forever just standing, then just walking in a straight line, before we ever even looked a the first move of the form.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(but IMHO, one can never be truly open minded, as experience and prejudice will always influence your mind to some degree.)

in gen one may not find what one seeks and expects until ones experience are such that either one understands what it is one seeks, or is quite clear in what one expects.
.

Your post is not really clear about why after 22yrs in something else you want to change and what do you expect from this change. Regardless of not knowing or having any experience about it you must have some idea or reasons for wanting to study it. Taiji, as with many methods can be and is approached in a verity of ways reflecting different needs and skill sets of students and teachers. If what is shown or felt does not match with your expectations regardless of weather their founded on a poor understanding or not, it will never match unless you are truly able to empty your cup which you at this point you seem unwilling to do.

You need to get back to what is called a beginners mind, which after so much time in other things I don’t see how it would be possible. Your concerns show this quite clearly. This is quite common. Even with taiji training from other styles many really have trouble emptying their cup, and seem to be constantly comparing what they did learn to what they are learning, until such time as they really figure out what it is that they want, and expect.

Its called clarity and sincerity. My advice would be just to look around and if you see some one practicing taiji and the movements appeal to you on some level, try it just to learn the movements regardless of weather it is correct or not, regardless weather it is martial or not. This will allow you to approach it with an empty mind looking for something that for what ever reason seems to be something that you would like to do.
Helping you to unlearn and let go of things that you already can do.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Here's a fictional example of a perception shaped by both reality and ideas: a young external martial artist comes up with the idea that tai chi is a worthless martial art, and that there are no true masters left. He casts about, trying to find a tai chi master to fight him, to prove that the art is viable, functional, and real. He succeeds in proving his idea that the art is worthless because in pushing, he cannot find anyone to fight back. Perhaps if he meets a tai chi master, that master might have the idea, "Ah, this person is quite hard and not interested in learning softness yet" so they do not engage. The master's idea of mastery doesn't involve challenging people closed to his instruction. It just doesn't register as important or necessary because he has achieved emptiness, so all the young man's pushing for proof falls into emptiness. They never meet. Or having met, never fight.

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000099.html

from another site, you might find some meaning in it

[qiew]

hinokata
I asked him to apply a Chin Na technique to either my arm, upper body, or fingers if he could. He attempted 4-5 times and I *very* easily countered them. That guy is either not fully understood TaiChi or does not utilising qi correctly in the practice.
TaiChi is not about attack. Its application to TaiChi Chin Na is a modern TaiChi martial Art to attract students.
TaiChi does not initial muscles and bones to punch, block, kick and push. It is the contunuatoin of utilising oponent force to initial attack.


1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded. God help him. If he only knows how to utilise qi with his taichi.


3. He seems to focus much more on the spiritual/meditation aspects than the martial ones.
Do you mean qi.


This is TaiChi http://www.taotaichiforum.com/index.php?ind=media&op=file_view&iden=5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz5tPB9U1DI&mode=related&search=

This is TaiChi Wrestling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UTxCWd2lJE&mode=related&search=


Basic idea of TaiChi, but would be knock out by a boxer in 5 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhXTG9eRAg&mode=related&search=

This is a joke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxfIpTo3Nbk&mode=related&search=

[qiphlow]

hinokata: first, welcome.
taijiquan is a wonderful martial art and well worth the time it takes to learn. it has extremely good health benefits, and can be very effective for self defense as well. i would have to agree with bamboo leaf in that you have to "empty your cup" when you are starting taiji. (or anything else for that matter!) if you are limited to training with someone in your local area, then find who you feel is the best, and learn all you can from him or her. also study the taiji classics--these are the writings of some of the past masters about the principles and theory of taijiquan. they should be readily available in books. what style of taiji are you learning? yang? chen? wu? sun? they all have different flavors and shapes, but the principles of the art should be the same throughout. i will tell you one good thing that has held true for me as i enter my tenth year of practice: the more i learn, the deeper it gets, and the more i want to know!
and i'd like to reiterate something that you've probably heard ad nauseam, but bears repeating: there are many crap versions of taijiquan being taught these days--don't let that discourage you from looking thru all that to find the good stuff.

[hinokata]

Orthodox??????????

Thank you for that tidbit of information regarding the 37 form. Ortodox being taijichaun official sansction and modified by the chinese goverment for health/exercise benefits, at least that is my understanding of the term in this sense.

[hinokata]

To everyone that replied on this thread, thank you very much for your sharing your knowledge with me. Bamboo, you actually made alot of sense with your comment about empting your cup. I pondered the situation last night, using my experience, the information I gathered here, and the information contained in my books. I decided that I can not train under this teacher because as another gentleman pointed out, often times you come to regret it if you go against your intial impression. I also re-evaulated my ignorant position on CMA as some sort of mystical art, a similiar problem I had when I first started ninjutsu.

According to my book (which is: http://ymaa.com/publishing/books/internal/tai_chi_chuan ), it states that 70% of taijichaun can be learned from books, dvd, and tons of practice, so I decided to purchase the companion DVD and start there. I readily admit that it is not the optimal solution, but given the limited amount of good insructors in my area, I feel it is a good start. I have the dedication and willpower to train on my own, and after I have practiced and become comfortable with the movements, exercises, and postures, I will seek a master that will correct all the bad habits I have up till that point. :)

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I am a very intelligent person and I will be able to pick up quite a bit from the DVD/book. I am also smart enough to know, that those are only the basics (at best), and that to even pick those up properly, I WILL need an instructor at some point in the future at which time I will seek a qualified instructor, even if I do have to travel somewhere to see one. But by the time I go to seek the instructor, I will have a much better idea of what exactly it is I am looking for and i will be able to ask better, more informed questions.

I forget who it was, but someone asked why after 22 years in JMA, why would I want to switch. The honest answer is, I don't know. I have been feeling like I've been missing something for awhile now and originally was looking in the JMA arena. I didn't find anything that could fill that void. As funky as this sounds, I was watching a movie ("Twin Warriors") and I saw the initial movements in the beginning and something inside just went "I LIKE THAT!". The movements are so elegant and graceful, IMHO, more so than Aikido, although I was still under the impression at that point that taijichuan was strictly an exercise, so I started doing some research on it and discovered that lo and behold, it actually was an martial art. I find the movements fasicinating, and I felt like I *had* to learn that, that was what I was missing. That's really all the information I can tell you. I would also like to state, I am not going to forget my training in JMA, they are still very valid and effective forms of self-defense and they have served me well in the past, and I am sure they will in the future. I personally feel that the internal arts is how I want to progress in the future.

Again, to everyone whom offered input on this thread, thank you very much.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I LIKE THAT!)

this is the best way to approach it. if I may forget about the usage. Just approach it by trying to match the movements exactly as you can with the understanding of what is being asked. In this way when you are asked to be straight and centered you can ponder and find the true meaning with out any other thoughts getting in the way.

Even if you wanted to, it would be hard to empty your cup, your body and inner mind will not allow it, this is to be expected. Which if you continue allowing the taiji to unfold inside, you really will come to a point where what you will need to do will be self evident. Only you will understand this point, it can not be reached in any other way it must come from the inside.

I think all here would join with me in wishing you much luck in this.

[msg]

hi hinokata just wanted to let you know that there is a very good teacher in denver.co his name is willem de thouars he is an elder man very very good teacher look him up on the computer for more info i have trianed in hi style for years it covers a lot

[hinokata]

hi hinokata just wanted to let you know that there is a very good teacher in denver.co his name is willem de thouars he is an elder man very very good teacher look him up on the computer for more info i have trianed in hi style for years it covers a lot

All I found was information linking him to silat. I don't dispute that he may be a fantastic teacher, but what does he have to do with Taijiquan?

[hinokata]

this is the best way to approach it. if I may forget about the usage. Just approach it by trying to match the movements exactly as you can with the understanding of what is being asked. In this way when you are asked to be straight and centered you can ponder and find the true meaning with out any other thoughts getting in the way.

I figure the first couple of months will most likely me trying to tell the difference between my elbow and my....well you know the rest of the expression.


Even if you wanted to, it would be hard to empty your cup, your body and inner mind will not allow it, this is to be expected. Which if you continue allowing the taiji to unfold inside, you really will come to a point where what you will need to do will be self evident. Only you will understand this point, it can not be reached in any other way it must come from the inside.

I agree with the beginning of the statement. As to the later, I don't have enough knowledge yet to agree or disagree. :)


I think all here would join with me in wishing you much luck in this.

Thank you very much. I hope that I don't ask too many "stupid" questions and annoy the good members of the forum. Thank you once again to everyone who provided input on this thread.

[qiew]

It is ok to DIY from good books and DVDs, then fine tune the movements with good instructor and friends consider you have 22 years of kungfu back ground.

You have to abandon the philosophy of your art of fighting techniqe using punch, block, kick, chop etc and understand the meaning of taichi. If you move your hand(s), you apply taichi wrongly. You should move your leg(s) and body to in most forms.

http://www.taotaichiforum.com/index.php?ind=media&op=file_view&iden=9 would give you the idea of the correct postures.

Dr.Yang Jwing-Ming learnt kungfu in his early days before interested in TaiChi. He publishes several books and DVDs which may of some interest. His clips of several ilustractions are interesting but.................................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmtmStETh0&mode=related&search=

Master Wu Kuo-Chung also turned from kungfu to taichi doing 37 forms and based in Taiwan. Defintely not orthodox.

Try learning to use the joint of hip for turning having the body as a straight line from the 百會PaiHui (crown of the head) through the hip joint to 湧泉Yongquan
(Gushing Spring).

You must understand each move and its principle.

Remember if you practice the same form for one thousand hours, you are still learning taichi. You may complete the full forms deep from your heart without thinking, you are still learning. If only you can instinctively move when an oponent touches you, you understand taichi.

[hinokata]

It is ok to DIY from good books and DVDs, then fine tune the movements with good instructor and friends consider you have 22 years of kungfu back ground.

I do not have 22 years in in kung fu. I have 22 years in JMA.



YYou have to abandon the philosophy of your art of fighting techniqe using punch, block, kick, chop etc and understand the meaning of taichi. If you move your hand(s), you apply taichi wrongly. You should move your leg(s) and body to in most forms.

One thing I can foresee myself having a problem with is treating it like Aikido because the principles are so similiar. I hope I will be able to correct this on my own.


http://www.taotaichiforum.com/index.php?ind=media&op=file_view&iden=9 would give you the idea of the correct postures.

Dr.Yang Jwing-Ming learnt kungfu in his early days before interested in TaiChi. He publishes several books and DVDs which may of some interest. His clips of several ilustractions are interesting but.................................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmtmStETh0&mode=related&search=


Very good videos. When I purchased the DVD, I also purchased the Push Hands one (course 1 & 2) as I figured that it will give me a better idea on the larger picture.


Remember if you practice the same form for one thousand hours, you are still learning taichi. You may complete the full forms deep from your heart without thinking, you are still learning. If only you can instinctively move when an oponent touches you, you understand taichi.

This sounds very close the "empty jacket" theory. Thank you for all of the good information and the link to correct posture. I'm sure it will come in useful.

[mantis108]

First off, thank you for taking the time to read the sections below. If you have a productive answer or some useful knowledge that you would care to share, please do so. :) The purpose of this post is to gather information from people whom have far more knowledge than I do on the subject. I would hate to not train with this person if it is a case of my lack of knowledge and prejudice preventing me from taking a wonderful opertunity. I have tried to be open minded in my sections labeled (counter), but IMHO, one can never be truly open minded, as experience and prejudice will always influence your mind to some degree.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your background. I would like to say that there are some good advices and comments shared by others already. I would like to share some thoughts with you as well.


Brief History:
- About 22 years total in martial arts training. Ninjutsu, Karate, Jujitsu and Aikido being the most training/heaviest influences. As you can see, mostly Japanese, traditional arts. (Yes I know you're screaming karate is Japanese, you dummy!, but I have a reason to say that this form is not quite Japanese ;) )

I believe we need to bear in mind that while these are Japanese arts, they do share quite a bit of similarity with the TCMA.


Tonight:
I have to say the gentleman was very nice, and very knowledgeable in a scholarly fashion. He seemed to know all about meridians, chi, histories, etc. I have only the books I have purchased to go by regarding these arts however, so my knowledge is limited at best.

I am not trying to put anyone down but the truth is no one really does know everything about the Truth. Being knowledgeable and having insights are very different thing. It is comparable to a grade school teach and a university professor who doesn't really know the entire truth despite the fact that he has more insight than the grade school teacher on a given subject. It is the content not the amount that counts IMHO. There is only one truth but it can be seen or approached from many angle. Truth in the form of principle(s) should apply in any situation regardless whether it is physical, mental and/or spiritual. If not, it can't be deem as Truth. Martial arts truth is the same way.


My Concerns:
1. After showing me a form that was fairly quick (for the sake of demo purposes), he was slightly winded.

(counter) - I don't really have one for this. Possible bad judgment on my part of his breathing techniques? (Granted, I personally think this is a long stretch)

I don't think it is fair to pass judgement on his level of attainment unless we know the nature of the form. (ie a dynamic fight oriented form or slowly pace health/spiritual form?). But fair enough that he's winded which is a sign of lack of conditioning.


2. I told him that I had a question for him, and in all honesty it was a trick question. He told me to go ahead and ask, so I asked him to apply a Chin Na technique to either my arm, upper body, or fingers if he could. He attempted 4-5 times and I *very* easily countered them. I almost put him in a finger lock (habit) but caught myself. I then consiously resisted the urge to defend myself and he still could not apply the technique to the point where I could feel any pain.

So how did you start off? Did either of you grab the other initially or he has to try to get a hold of your hand first? What technique that you quizzed him on? Is it a specific one or just about any one would do? There is a difference. So we need to clarify that. It sounds like you have a specific technique in mind.


(counter) I am *very* flexible in my upper body and extremities. I also have a huge pain tolerance, and generally (most)pressure points do not work on me. Some of that is due to training, and partly due to nerve damage. An additional aspect is that perhaps I have a complete misunderstanding of Chin Na in the first place. I DO understand that ever hold has a counter, etc, but my personal opinion is that should I, coming from a vastly different style be able to counter all of his techniques so easily? My understanding is that "Chin Na" means "to seize and control", yet he was unable to do either.

You have a very good point. If his Chin Na is banking on pain compliance only, then I am afraid he really doesn't have any real knowledge of Chin Na at all. Chin Na is known as "Nian Na Die Fa" (stick and control takedown/falling method) in the old days. It is about taking the balance/root (the legs) of subject out. attacking the joints is but a tactic or the means to achieve the goal. He seems to have confused the goal with the means. Manipulating joints and pain compliance are most common errors that many teachers of Chin Na make when teaching it.


3. He seems to focus much more on the spiritual/meditation aspects than the martial ones.

Well, personally, they are one and the same in Kung Fu. I will flag a teacher that hold that kind of misguided view.


(counter) This could be that the concepts in Internal CMA are so different that I am unable to recognize the benefits down the road after years of training. I would like to point out that JMA is NOT without it's use of chi(ki) and usages, so it's not exactly a foreign concept to me.

IMHO there is no such a thing as external and internal Kung Fu. Real Kung Fu is both. It's a matter of emphasis. Kung Fu is about recognition of changing phases of life form (mainly human) and affecting changes of both the individual and its enviroment, which is what Qi (organic and holistic worldview) is about. It used to be part of the education system like its western counter part - sport. Sadly it's now totally out of the regular education system.


4. He said there is an Orthadox 37 form type of taijiquan, which according to my books, there is only 24, 48, and 108 posture forms.

Well, I would have throw him a curve ball and ask why is 37 more orthadox than 108, 48, or 24. If he said it is because his teacher got it from his teacher's teacher ect ; therefore, it's orthadox, I would red flag this teacher right away. He simply didn't do his homework.


(counter) This could very well be my lack of knowledge of CMA in general or that I misread something.

It's kind of you to save his face. :)


Tonight's Lessons:
I would like to point out that I am not disagreeing with the following statements, but my training has always taught me this is body dynamics and has very little to do with chi.

1. He stated that and standard horse stance allows an equal amount of Yin and Yang chi to circulate throughout the body.

Well, I have no idea where he got his training and information from. But when it comes to the earthly phyiscal body it's Gang (rigidity - fire) and Rou (fluidity - water) not Ying Yang used in the case of celestrial body such as Sun Moon Stars. The Yin Yang attribute (not Qi) in the physical body is Yang Qi (vital energy) and Yin Xue (blood). From the perspective of boold, this relationship is like master/teacher/commander and slave/student/troop. From the perspective of Qi, the relationship is like mother and son (Muzi). These relationships are there every single second that one is alive. Unless you don't own a physical body, then you don't need to worry about Yin Yang Gang Rou. Now if you do have a physical body and you are about to do a physical activity, then all these "internal" stuff are of importance IMHO.

I do agree that he seems missing the point in his explanation. The flow of Qi is a complicated issue. If you are interested, we can go into that later.


2. Open Horse stance - Chi flows downward into the ground providing you with better stability.

3. Closed Horse Stance - Chi flows up from the ground and into your fists, allowing harder/faster strikes, but at the cost of stability.

Umm... I persume he's trying to explain the difference between a "western saddle" (southern, wilder and open horse stance) and the "British saddle" (northern, narrower and closed? horse stance). Again, I don't know where he got his info from but it would seem that he doesn't quite understand Chinese medical or even Kung Fu anatomy.


4. I was started with the "Hub and Spoke Qigong" drills, is that a normal starting step?

Not sure what this is... but I suppose it's about using the hip/waist grid or core to direct the limbs. May be it's Chan Si Jing (silk reeling power generation)?


Again, in case anything I said above is misinterpreted, I have NOTHING against CMA, I am NOT looking for a style ****ing match, but I AM looking for useful and knowledgable information that will help on my path to learning Taijiquan.

Thank you again for you time, and any useful input that you can provide.

It's great to have discussion like this to clarify thing. So don't worry about it.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[hinokata]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your background. I would like to say that there are some good advices and comments shared by others already. I would like to share some thoughts with you as well.

Thank you very much taking the time to respond with so much information.



I believe we need to bear in mind that while these are Japanese arts, they do share quite a bit of similarity with the TCMA.

The only one I know for sure that does (aside from historical roots), is the style of karate, Okinawan Shorin Ryu Kenshin Kan Karate that I have studied. It even includes kata that I was told come from CMA. From what I was taught, it shares MANY similiar principles, such as more of center line attacking, some postures, and a much more fluid and circular style than say that of other hard styles of karate. My teacher said that Kise Sensei teaches two types of striking, "inside" and "outside". In this sense, it does not mean physical positions, but more striking outside (physical), and inside (energy). Personally, I do not view this style as Japanese per se, but Okinawan. I know Okinawa is part of Japan now, but the cultures ARE different from one another and they used to be seperate.


I am not trying to put anyone down but the truth is no one really does know everything about the Truth. Being knowledgeable and having insights are very different thing. It is comparable to a grade school teach and a university professor who doesn't really know the entire truth despite the fact that he has more insight than the grade school teacher on a given subject.

That is a very good point. The breadth of knowledge contained within any legitimate style is most likely more than any one man will ever fully know in his lifetime. Even great masters continued their education until death.


It is the content not the amount that counts IMHO.

I do not completely agree here. I would say it is both. For example, say that a person knows 5 techniques, but has mastered them to the point of perfection, and person b knows 20 techniques, but the mastery level is not as high, possibly Shodan level (from a good school). I personally think the Shodan will have a better chance due the fact that the limited techniques available to the master will begin to telegraph, and allow the Shodan the chance to develop/institute a counter. Granted, this is a GREATLY simplified example, but I think it illustrates my point.


There is only one truth but it can be seen or approached from many angle. Truth in the form of principle(s) should apply in any situation regardless whether it is physical, mental and/or spiritual. If not, it can't be deem as Truth. Martial arts truth is the same way.

I agree with you here.


I don't think it is fair to pass judgement on his level of attainment unless we know the nature of the form. (ie a dynamic fight oriented form or slowly pace health/spiritual form?).

IIRC, it was Yang traditional short form. He increased the speed of it due to time constraints.


But fair enough that he's winded which is a sign of lack of conditioning.

Someone else made a very good point regarding this, perhaps he had a cold or had done some heavy training before I arrived, or some other valid factor that I was not aware of.


So how did you start off? Did either of you grab the other initially or he has to try to get a hold of your hand first? What technique that you quizzed him on? Is it a specific one or just about any one would do? There is a difference. So we need to clarify that. It sounds like you have a specific technique in mind.

We started off from a neutral positions. I told him he that he was free to apply any technique that he felt would quickly demonstrate Chin Na for me on my upper body. I did not have a specific technique in mind when I asked him. Assuming that anything he did should have led into a throw or sweep, that also would have been highly unlikely as I was never unbalanced. Looking back on it now, he did not have what I would personally call a correct posture for controlling anyone. When that failed, I just gave him my arm and said do whatever, at which point he took me into a wrist lock after some fumbling. I would like to add, that when I get grabbed, my body instictivly positions itself to get out of the hold, so I did have to fight that.


You have a very good point. If his Chin Na is banking on pain compliance only, then I am afraid he really doesn't have any real knowledge of Chin Na at all. Chin Na is known as "Nian Na Die Fa" (stick and control takedown/falling method) in the old days. It is about taking the balance/root (the legs) of subject out. attacking the joints is but a tactic or the means to achieve the goal. He seems to have confused the goal with the means. Manipulating joints and pain compliance are most common errors that many teachers of Chin Na make when teaching it.

So it is primarily a set of methods to divert attention so that one can perform a sweep or throw?


IMHO there is no such a thing as external and internal Kung Fu. Real Kung Fu is both. It's a matter of emphasis. Kung Fu is about recognition of changing phases of life form (mainly human) and affecting changes of both the individual and its enviroment, which is what Qi (organic and holistic worldview) is about. It used to be part of the education system like its western counter part - sport. Sadly it's now totally out of the regular education system.

I really couldn't comment on this because my knowledge of Kung Fu is very limited. I was however, under the impression that Kung Fu was mostly external, much like most styles of karate.


Well, I would have throw him a curve ball and ask why is 37 more orthadox than 108, 48, or 24. If he said it is because his teacher got it from his teacher's teacher ect ; therefore, it's orthadox, I would red flag this teacher right away. He simply didn't do his homework.

I might have skewed this one a bit. To clarify, he included the 37 form with the 24, 48, and 108 forms. A gentleman in an early post pointed out where the 37 form comes from, but it doesn't seem to be officially sanctioned by the Chinese government, which is my understand of what the "orthodox" forms are.


It's kind of you to save his face. :)

Just trying to be open and honest. :)


Well, I have no idea where he got his training and information from. But when it comes to the earthly phyiscal body it's Gang (rigidity - fire) and Rou (fluidity - water) not Ying Yang used in the case of celestrial body such as Sun Moon Stars.

Ah, now these concepts are not so foreign to me. Ninjutsu bases many things around the elements. An example of water would be for person A to attack, defender moves back out of range and then immediately moves forward for the attack (like the ocean tide).


The Yin Yang attribute (not Qi) in the physical body is Yang Qi (vital energy) and Yin Xue (blood). From the perspective of boold, this relationship is like master/teacher/commander and slave/student/troop. From the perspective of Qi, the relationship is like mother and son (Muzi). These relationships are there every single second that one is alive. Unless you don't own a physical body, then you don't need to worry about Yin Yang Gang Rou. Now if you do have a physical body and you are about to do a physical activity, then all these "internal" stuff are of importance IMHO.

Very informative. Thank you for sharing your knowledge on this.


I do agree that he seems missing the point in his explanation. The flow of Qi is a complicated issue. If you are interested, we can go into that later.

I am very interested in learning as much as you are willing to teach me. Be warned though, I ask a lot of questions. :)


Umm... I persume he's trying to explain the difference between a "western saddle" (southern, wilder and open horse stance) and the "British saddle" (northern, narrower and closed? horse stance). Again, I don't know where he got his info from but it would seem that he doesn't quite understand Chinese medical or even Kung Fu anatomy.

Not quite. An open horse stance is one where you assume the standard horse stance, and turn your feet outward 35-45 degrees. A closed horse stance is the opposite and one where you would turn your feet inward. The former provides great stability at the cost on agility, the later allows greater agility but at the loss of stability. Honestly, I do not like the closed horse stance as I think there are much better stances that provide almost as much agility, without the same cost of stability.


Not sure what this is... but I suppose it's about using the hip/waist grid or core to direct the limbs. May be it's Chan Si Jing (silk reeling power generation)?

I couldn't find it in my books either. It's basically a set of 5 exercises that have you turning your waist side to side while swinging your arms, "Ringing the Golden Bell" is one of them if I remember correctly. I actually took notes on the names, so I could provide that if you are interested.


It's great to have discussion like this to clarify thing. So don't worry about it.

I agree, and I am learning a great deal. :)

[mantis108]

Thank you very much taking the time to respond with so much information.

You are most welcome. It's great to have discussion like this with someone of your expirence. :)


The only one I know for sure that does (aside from historical roots), is the style of karate, Okinawan Shorin Ryu Kenshin Kan Karate that I have studied. It even includes kata that I was told come from CMA. From what I was taught, it shares MANY similiar principles, such as more of center line attacking, some postures, and a much more fluid and circular style than say that of other hard styles of karate. My teacher said that Kise Sensei teaches two types of striking, "inside" and "outside". In this sense, it does not mean physical positions, but more striking outside (physical), and inside (energy). Personally, I do not view this style as Japanese per se, but Okinawan. I know Okinawa is part of Japan now, but the cultures ARE different from one another and they used to be seperate.

Well, personally style really doesn't matter. Whether it is Japanese or Chinese origin makes no particular difference in effectiveness. But is good to know where things come from (human nature I supposed).


That is a very good point. The breadth of knowledge contained within any legitimate style is most likely more than any one man will ever fully know in his lifetime. Even great masters continued their education until death.

Agreed.


I do not completely agree here. I would say it is both. For example, say that a person knows 5 techniques, but has mastered them to the point of perfection, and person b knows 20 techniques, but the mastery level is not as high, possibly Shodan level (from a good school). I personally think the Shodan will have a better chance due the fact that the limited techniques available to the master will begin to telegraph, and allow the Shodan the chance to develop/institute a counter. Granted, this is a GREATLY simplified example, but I think it illustrates my point.

Well, at mastery level, the master properly won't need to or have the desire to fight anymore. ;) I believe you would be familiar with Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings? Musashi also went on to do calligraphys, paintings, sculptures, writing, etc. He is also one master that believe less is more. My point is that to master a technique is to master it's timing, energy, and motion and the more techniques that you have the more time you will need to drill and perfect those variables. It's like having a huge amount of debt load to be paid. Is it really a wise thing to accumilate that many techniques?


IIRC, it was Yang traditional short form. He increased the speed of it due to time constraints.

I would think he's more interested in impressing you than observing principle of Taiji or the Dao (the way). If really there is a time comstraint, he should have declined the performance or just do a section for demo. By hurrying up, he has gone against the number one principle of Taiji IMHO.


Someone else made a very good point regarding this, perhaps he had a cold or had done some heavy training before I arrived, or some other valid factor that I was not aware of.

Well... I am under the impression that he's trying to sell you "his brand of Taiji" which speaks volume about how much he is about his ego to me.


We started off from a neutral positions. I told him he that he was free to apply any technique that he felt would quickly demonstrate Chin Na for me on my upper body. I did not have a specific technique in mind when I asked him. Assuming that anything he did should have led into a throw or sweep, that also would have been highly unlikely as I was never unbalanced. Looking back on it now, he did not have what I would personally call a correct posture for controlling anyone. When that failed, I just gave him my arm and said do whatever, at which point he took me into a wrist lock after some fumbling. I would like to add, that when I get grabbed, my body instictivly positions itself to get out of the hold, so I did have to fight that.

So you were both stationary? You weren't doing some sort of sticky hands or push hands? That's pretty hard if you weren't feeding him something and that forces him to fish for something. It sounds to me he's either overly confident of his skill or he's not that experienced with actual application at all. I mean he might be very "knowledgeable" about a lot of moves but he doesn't seem to have spent too much time to drill them in order to get the true dynamics of them (this is not unlike the Shodan example that you gave).


So it is primarily a set of methods to divert attention so that one can perform a sweep or throw?

not necessarily but if one is to apprehend someone than it is much more practical to flatten out the subject one way or the other.


I really couldn't comment on this because my knowledge of Kung Fu is very limited. I was however, under the impression that Kung Fu was mostly external, much like most styles of karate.

no worries then. :)


I might have skewed this one a bit. To clarify, he included the 37 form with the 24, 48, and 108 forms. A gentleman in an early post pointed out where the 37 form comes from, but it doesn't seem to be officially sanctioned by the Chinese government, which is my understand of what the "orthodox" forms are.

Regardless, the fact the government sanctioned anything doesn't make some thing "orthodox". PROC sanctioned modern Wushu and San Shou (the sport). It doesn't make these "orthodox" Kung Fu material or authentic anything for that matter. My point is that he failed to qualify or define his "orthodox" view with actual insights into the forms; rather he relied on the "authority" to answer your question.

[mantis108]

I am very interested in learning as much as you are willing to teach me. Be warned though, I ask a lot of questions. :)

To be honest, you are quite knowledgeable already and I don't think I am in the position to teach you anything. I would however share some thoughts with you since the flow of Qi is related to the next part (horse stance).

When it comes to the physical body from a martial arts rather then a medical perspective, it is about the attributes of Gang Rou. In Chinese worldview, a human body consists of 8 Gang and 12 Rou which reflects the number (20) representing Liang Yi (two archetypes - yinyang) which is commonly and erronously known as Taiji. The 8 odd vessels of the body correspond to the 8 Gang and the 12 paired meridians correspond to the 12 Rou. The 12 meridians (6 yang and 6 yin) are connected to Wu Cang (5 yin organs) and Liu Fu (6 yang organs) where the Qi Xue constantly flows through with a timed schedeul. Similar to plants and animals behavioral responses to the changes of the seasons of the year, the meridian becomes "active" during the 12 Shi (a period of 2 hours) of the day alternately. For example the Gull bladder meridian will be most active during 11 p.m. to 1 a.m.; while Heart meridian will be most active during 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. This BTW is where the centerline theory came from IMHO. When the meridians and organs are functioning properly, they will produce surplus Qi which will flow into and "store" in the Ren and Du vessels and when the meridians and organs are deficient, the Qi from the Ren Du vessels will be returning to the system to compensate the deficiency. For martial arts and spiritual meditation practice, it is the Qi that is in the Ren and Du vessels that matters. That's Qi flow for martial arts in a nutshell.


Not quite. An open horse stance is one where you assume the standard horse stance, and turn your feet outward 35-45 degrees. A closed horse stance is the opposite and one where you would turn your feet inward. The former provides great stability at the cost on agility, the later allows greater agility but at the loss of stability. Honestly, I do not like the closed horse stance as I think there are much better stances that provide almost as much agility, without the same cost of stability.

Okay, I see what you mean now. The proper horse stance from a Chinese perspective should be with the feet parallel not outward or inward. There are 2 reasons.

First of all, it is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian which governs courage. Combat requires courage. The Gushing Spring point is BTW associated with the Gull Bladder meridian. By placing the foot in parallel position, you will be activating the GBM which runs straight from the right side of the head and zig zag a little bit around the middle of the torso and the down along the outside of the right thigh to the outside of the foot then back to the big toe. The gripping the toes is important in order to prevent the foot rolls onto the pinky toe side; hence, obstructing the flow of Qi.

The second reason is more of a body mechanics. The open horse stance in Japanese styles is actually more mobile than the Chinese paralle feet horse stance not to mention the potential knee problem coming from the knee-toes alignments IMHO. But more importantly, the Chinese horse stance locks the hip in place thus allowing transfer of energy from the ground up without losing much of it. You will not see a "S" shape shaking of the torso with this kind of mechanics no matter how hard one punches. On the other hand, you will see significant shaking of the torso with the Japanese styles especially with the novices. This is due to the hip is not lock down with the feet placement. You could experiment with it and see.

So you see Kung Fu addresses both "internal" and "external" aspects at once. That in my mind what pugilistic reasoning (philosophy) is about. This is by no means knocking the Japanese counter part. It's just different. As long as you can stand and fight effectively, it really doesn't matter.


I couldn't find it in my books either. It's basically a set of 5 exercises that have you turning your waist side to side while swinging your arms, "Ringing the Golden Bell" is one of them if I remember correctly. I actually took notes on the names, so I could provide that if you are interested.

It would be great if you would share them. Thanks.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[hinokata]

You are most welcome. It's great to have discussion like this with someone of your expirence. :)

It sounds as though you have as much, or more in your areas of study. ;)


Well, personally style really doesn't matter. Whether it is Japanese or Chinese origin makes no particular difference in effectiveness. But is good to know where things come from (human nature I supposed).

I agree. For that matter, Europe and the middle east also have some fine fighting arts. None that I personally care to learn, but effective none the less.


Well, at mastery level, the master properly won't need to or have the desire to fight anymore. ;)

hahahaha, that is a very good point, however it was not the focus of the discussion ;)


I believe you would be familiar with Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings? Musashi also went on to do calligraphys, paintings, sculptures, writing, etc. He is also one master that believe less is more. My point is that to master a technique is to master it's timing, energy, and motion and the more techniques that you have the more time you will need to drill and perfect those variables. It's like having a huge amount of debt load to be paid. Is it really a wise thing to accumilate that many techniques?

I see your point on this, however I think we shall just have to agree to disagree. :)


I would think he's more interested in impressing you than observing principle of Taiji or the Dao (the way). If really there is a time comstraint, he should have declined the performance or just do a section for demo. By hurrying up, he has gone against the number one principle of Taiji IMHO.

Interesting. One thing I would have to ask then, is it the speed itself that went against the principle, or the fact that it was not done with respect?


Well... I am under the impression that he's trying to sell you "his brand of Taiji" which speaks volume about how much he is about his ego to me.

I've decided to purchase someone else's Taiji, his book, and his DVD. :)


So you were both stationary? You weren't doing some sort of sticky hands or push hands?

Yes to the former, no to the latter.


That's pretty hard if you weren't feeding him something and that forces him to fish for something. It sounds to me he's either overly confident of his skill or he's not that experienced with actual application at all. I mean he might be very "knowledgeable" about a lot of moves but he doesn't seem to have spent too much time to drill them in order to get the true dynamics of them (this is not unlike the Shodan example that you gave).

Forgive my ignorance, but what is so difficult about the situation? I could think of quite a few techniques that could be easily applied from a stand-still position like that. He DID have the option to unbalance me, which he chose not to take, which does lend credience to latter part of your statement.


not necessarily but if one is to apprehend someone than it is much more practical to flatten out the subject one way or the other.

I suppose then it depends on your ultimate goal for the grappling in the first place. :)


Regardless, the fact the government sanctioned anything doesn't make some thing "orthodox". PROC sanctioned modern Wushu and San Shou (the sport). It doesn't make these "orthodox" Kung Fu material or authentic anything for that matter. My point is that he failed to qualify or define his "orthodox" view with actual insights into the forms; rather he relied on the "authority" to answer your question.

Ah, I thought that was the "correct" term for the PROC sanctioned taijichaun forms. Apparently that was my error.

[hinokata]

To be honest, you are quite knowledgeable already and I don't think I am in the position to teach you anything.

I appreciate the compliment although I am somewhat suprised to read that coming from you. You seem like a knowledgeable person yourself and should know that you can ALWAYS learn something from someone else, if you only take the time to look. :)


I would however share some thoughts with you since the flow of Qi is related to the next part (horse stance).

Thank you for taking the time to do so, I appreciate it.


When it comes to the physical body from a martial arts rather then a medical perspective, it is about the attributes of Gang Rou. In Chinese worldview, a human body consists of 8 Gang and 12 Rou which reflects the number (20) representing Liang Yi (two archetypes - yinyang) which is commonly and erronously known as Taiji. The 8 odd vessels of the body correspond to the 8 Gang and the 12 paired meridians correspond to the 12 Rou. The 12 meridians (6 yang and 6 yin) are connected to Wu Cang (5 yin organs) and Liu Fu (6 yang organs) where the Qi Xue constantly flows through with a timed schedeul. Similar to plants and animals behavioral responses to the changes of the seasons of the year, the meridian becomes "active" during the 12 Shi (a period of 2 hours) of the day alternately. For example the Gull bladder meridian will be most active during 11 p.m. to 1 a.m.; while Heart meridian will be most active during 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. This BTW is where the centerline theory came from IMHO. When the meridians and organs are functioning properly, they will produce surplus Qi which will flow into and "store" in the Ren and Du vessels and when the meridians and organs are deficient, the Qi from the Ren Du vessels will be returning to the system to compensate the deficiency. For martial arts and spiritual meditation practice, it is the Qi that is in the Ren and Du vessels that matters. That's Qi flow for martial arts in a nutshell.

Excellent information! That gives me an excellent starting point to begin searching for additional information on my own.


Okay, I see what you mean now. The proper horse stance from a Chinese perspective should be with the feet parallel not outward or inward.

Well technically, those are variations on the "standard" horse stance, which appears to pretty much be indentical to the Chinese version.


There are 2 reasons.

First of all, it is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian which governs courage. Combat requires courage. The Gushing Spring point is BTW associated with the Gull Bladder meridian. By placing the foot in parallel position, you will be activating the GBM which runs straight from the right side of the head and zig zag a little bit around the middle of the torso and the down along the outside of the right thigh to the outside of the foot then back to the big toe. The gripping the toes is important in order to prevent the foot rolls onto the pinky toe side; hence, obstructing the flow of Qi.

So assuming this is all accurate (and I'm not saying that it isn't), is it also possible to disrupt the flow of chi by moving your opponents body into mal-aligned positions and/or striking meridians? Assuming that it is possible, what are the effects of doing such strikes? For example, if you disrupt the Gall Bladder meridian, is it possible to turn the opponent into a coward?


The second reason is more of a body mechanics. The open horse stance in Japanese styles is actually more mobile than the Chinese paralle feet horse stance not to mention the potential knee problem coming from the knee-toes alignments IMHO. But more importantly, the Chinese horse stance locks the hip in place thus allowing transfer of energy from the ground up without losing much of it. You will not see a "S" shape shaking of the torso with this kind of mechanics no matter how hard one punches. On the other hand, you will see significant shaking of the torso with the Japanese styles especially with the novices. This is due to the hip is not lock down with the feet placement.

You could experiment with it and see.

I might do that, just because I'm curious. I'll borrow a camcorder and record it so that I can look at from a 3rd person perspective. Assuming the "s" shape does occur, I will also test it with bo/jo/nunchaku strikes to see if the same effect happens.


So you see Kung Fu addresses both "internal" and "external" aspects at once. That in my mind what pugilistic reasoning (philosophy) is about.

I see your point. This isn't that far away from a lot of the principles of Aikido. The meridian concepts are different, but I think the underlying principle is the same. Channeling and extending your ki as well as re-directing your opponents ki is something you begin to understand down the road.


This is by no means knocking the Japanese counter part. It's just different. As long as you can stand and fight effectively, it really doesn't matter.

It wasn't taken that way. It's an open discussion and we're comparing based on the strengths of our knowledge. I hope to have as much knowledge in CMA some day. :)


It would be great if you would share them. Thanks.

Arm Swing
Wrapping the waist
Lifting the curtain
Ringing the Golden Bell

He also made mention of 3 gates Qigong for energy development, if that means anything to you.

[scholar]

I realize I'm coming to this late, but I have a bit of advice because I've had experiences successfully integrating former JMA guys into my classes.

If the teacher couldn't get a decent lock on you, IMO then he doesn't have anything to teach you. There should be a dramatic difference between what he can do and what you can do if you are going to really benefit from the experience. Every arm, every body, has inoperative angles that can be locked to the point of effectiveness if the practitioner, no matter what style, JMA or CMA, has the skill to find them.

Someone can wrap up the style of Taijiquan they are teaching in all kinds of poetic metaphors which may impress the "Crouching Tiger" fans down at Starbucks, but if it doesn't work for self-defence, they are just a student pretending to be a teacher. Another warning sign is if the teacher starts telling you "your qi goes here or your qi goes there" in this or that form or routine. The instruction should be much more practical than that, again in my opinion. Too much concentration on qi leads to stagnant training, according to the old Yang, Wu Yuxiang and Wu Jianquan family classics.

The modern Chinese govt. short forms are notorious for leaving out the practical nuts and bolts of application leverages. Some of my more conspiracy theory-oriented colleagues feel that this was done on purpose, which may be, but I think it more likely that the people who formulated them didn't actually know the original martial principles of the family forms they were mixing and matching by committee.

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Hinokata,

I think with your experience in the fighting arts, it should not be difficult for you to distinguish what is good, and what is not so good.

In my opinion, "Tai Chi (Ji) Quen" is just a label to describe a martial art whose signature is in the effective manipulation of Yin and Yang.

Do not get obsessed with the label "Tai Chi". If you cross hands with someone who can show you control with minimal effort, and he/she is willing to share his knowledge, learn from that person. Don't worry about what he/she calls it. If he/she cannot show you some effective use of his body, don't bother even if he/she has the claim or the certificate to prove that he/she has the real deal.

After all, all good martial arts are about efficient use of the body. Unlike the old days where you can follow only one master for your entire life, these days there is nothing wrong in learning as much as you can from one, and some from another. Especially the fact that you have so much experience, you should be able to merge and consolidate different methods and techniques.

I have given up separating what is Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Karate, Bagua, Sumo, BJJ, Mua Thai, Aikido etc. I call myself a Tai Chi guy though because it was the style that opened my eyes and opened doors for me.

Good luck in your search.

Cheers,
John

[hinokata]

Hello Hinokata,
I think with your experience in the fighting arts, it should not be difficult for you to distinguish what is good, and what is not so good.

Hello. :) I would like to make a small distinction here. It is not difficult for me to tell what is *effective or not*. I have no experience in determining whether or not it is good taijichuan.


In my opinion, "Tai Chi (Ji) Quen" is just a label to describe a martial art whose signature is in the effective manipulation of Yin and Yang.

By that reasoning, would not Baguazhang also be Taijichuan? I was under the impression that they are two different paths to accomplish the same goals. All the history I have read also says that it is it's own style. I'm not saying that you are incorrect, I'm just trying to clarify.


Do not get obsessed with the label "Tai Chi". If you cross hands with someone who can show you control with minimal effort, and he/she is willing to share his knowledge, learn from that person. Don't worry about what he/she calls it. If he/she cannot show you some effective use of his body, don't bother even if he/she has the claim or the certificate to prove that he/she has the real deal.

I understand your logic here as well as personally subscribe to it for the most part.
In this instance however, I will need to "empty my cup" as much as possible so that I may learn the basics of how/why CMA does things, and not draw upon my previous teachings because they may not be teaching the same point.


After all, all good martial arts are about efficient use of the body. Unlike the old days where you can follow only one master for your entire life, these days there is nothing wrong in learning as much as you can from one, and some from another. Especially the fact that you have so much experience, you should be able to merge and consolidate different methods and techniques.

I agree, however that is also part of the problem. In learning a new system, IMO you should learn their ways, movements, techniques. After you become proficient in that system, THEN you can begin to merge things into your own personal style.


I have given up separating what is Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Karate, Bagua, Sumo, BJJ, Mua Thai, Aikido etc. I call myself a Tai Chi guy though because it was the style that opened my eyes and opened doors for me.

I understand what you mean here. My own personal fighting style contains a mixture of what works best for me from the arts I have studied. But there are reasons to keep them separate.


Good luck in your search.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. As far as searching, I got my DVDs and I have already begun tripping over myself in the 24 Simplified form. :)

[imperialtaichi]

...I would like to make a small distinction here. It is not difficult for me to tell what is *effective or not*. I have no experience in determining whether or not it is good taijichuan...

...I understand your logic here as well as personally subscribe to it for the most part.
In this instance however, I will need to "empty my cup" as much as possible so that I may learn the basics of how/why CMA does things



Hello Hinokata,

In my opinion, good Tai Chi is so effective you cannot miss it. One experience I had with Wei Shuren was that he asked me to punch him, so I did; and he used something similar to a Wing Chun "Bong Sau" (although he had never done WC) and he sent me flying across the room, while sitting down as if he's not even trying. So imho "good" and "efficient" goes hand in hand. (I also had similar experience with WC's Tsui Seung Tin and Wong Seong Leung some years back, but that's another story.)

In my opinion, the fact that your are trying to seek objectively, you have emptied your cup enough already! And you write well and logical too, which shows that you are intelligent and has good ability to differentiate what is good and what is bad. :)

Cheers,
John