Defence against western boxing

[Hitman]

Dear all,
I was trying to work out a defence against boxing counter attack with my training partner.
1. I attacked his head with a left straight punch.
2. He moved his head slightly to the right and did an overhead right counter punch, over my left hand, to my face. My punch missed him.
3. I did an outside right pak sao to deflect his right hand.
4. He immediately attacked me with his left hand and he got me.

My solutions are:
1. Turn my left hand into a left tan sao to deflect his overhead right counter punch. This allows me to deal with his second punch.
2. Try to move back before his right or left hand hit me.
3. Do the outside right pak sao and kick him at the same time, and hopefully I will land my attack first.

However, I do not think that I can do all those thing in real life. Is it possible for me to hear what is your solution to it?

Thank you

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am curious as to the position of your right hand while throwing the punch. It seems to me that if his punch was on top of your left trying to Pak would mean you were reaching and not in the best position. You cold have changed your left punch into something akin to a Biu Sau or simply used the existing punch to deflect the oncoming attack. However this would also depend on how high your arm was already, again not wishing to over-reach.

However, if your right hand was in a position to be used like a Wu Sau, then one response would be to simply allow this right punch to come in and use the Wu to intercept it. You could then drop the left and re-punch, Pak etc. Or you could make contact with the front of the Wu and then turn into a Lop and use theleft "punch" to rotate into a Bong or use the original punch to, in combination with a Lop, to attempt to applyan arm bar. Of course this would only work if everything were working in harmony. If the opponent is using more of a Jab then it most likely wont as th retraction would be too fast. Another option would be to turn the left handed punch into a Taun, or if the energy from the overhand punch was correct a Bong\Wu Sau, and strike with the Right.

IMHO, training to use the non punching hand as a Wu would allow one to have a second line of defense which would be able to aapt to his over hand right and intercept and defend without losing structure. But that is just one idea. IMO it would be better to turn or step off to the side rather than to step back as you should already have the tools to defend against this type of attack. Also if you turn slightly or step off using the Wu you will be able to adjust your position in relation to his and make it more difficult for them to use their left hand wihtout having to adjust their position. However, if you step back without maintaining a bridge then you will be no better off than before. Also, keep in mind that once you start retreating it is that much harder to resume moving forward.

[t_niehoff]

The answer is: sparring.

[WCFighter]

Why not attack his leading arm with a pak sao, and punch him at the same time?
This way he can't use his lead arm since you are controlling it, and if he attempts to use his rear arm to punch you, you can turn your punching hand into a bil sao, and punch him with the hand that was previously doing a pak sao?

Just a suggestion.

[Hitman]

Dear Sifu Dave,

I am curious as to the position of your right hand while throwing the punch. It seems to me that if his punch was on top of your left trying to Pak would mean you were reaching and not in the best position.

My right hand was in the wu sao position protecting my chest. I agreed with you that my defence is not in the best position. However, my training habit caused me to do the right pak sao. This is some thing that I have to correct.

I have tried to have my right hand in different positions, while throwing the left punch, e.g. near the hip. This was because in a fight I have no idea where my hands would be. My attack and defence would be totally depending on how my opponent was attacking me.

I would not be able to do a right pak sau to deflect his right hand, if my right hand was near my hip. It would be too far away to do any good.

You could have changed your left punch into something akin to a Biu Sau or simply used the existing punch to deflect the oncoming attack. However this would also depend on how high your arm was already, again not wishing to over-reach.

I have tried this move and it did work, providing my training partner is not doing a stop hit (interception) on me. This was because it was difficult for me to change the direction of my arm while punching forward. I could rotate my arm outward to deflect his punch, only if I have not committed my attack. My partner and my elbows would be very closed to each other.

Once I have committed my attack, I could not change direction, until it reached the target. By the time I was ready to change my attack, I would be hit.

However, if your right hand was in a position to be used like a Wu Sau, then one response would be to simply allow this right punch to come in and use the Wu to intercept it. You could then drop the left and re-punch, Pak etc. Or you could make contact with the front of the Wu and then turn into a Lop and use theleft "punch" to rotate into a Bong or use the original punch to, in combination with a Lop, to attempt to applyan arm bar. Of course this would only work if everything were working in harmony. If the opponent is using more of a Jab then it most likely wont as th retraction would be too fast. Another option would be to turn the left handed punch into a Taun, or if the energy from the overhand punch was correct a Bong\Wu Sau, and strike with the Right.

IMHO, training to use the non punching hand as a Wu would allow one to have a second line of defense which would be able to aapt to his over hand right and intercept and defend without losing structure. But that is just one idea. IMO it would be better to turn or step off to the side rather than to step back as you should already have the tools to defend against this type of attack. Also if you turn slightly or step off using the Wu you will be able to adjust your position in relation to his and make it more difficult for them to use their left hand wihtout having to adjust their position. However, if you step back without maintaining a bridge then you will be no better off than before. Also, keep in mind that once you start retreating it is that much harder to resume moving forward.

I will try and on work on this.


t_niehoff

The answer is: sparring.

If you learnt the techniques and then sparred without going through all the training steps. You will not only unable to apply what you have learnt in a sparring match. You will be fighting like an untrained kick boxer, human punching bag or a 5 years old child.

Trust me on this - I had over 200 sparring matches against various martial artists from beginners to black blets. During the first 163 sparring matches I fought like a human punching bag or a 5 years old child, while trying to applying my wing chun techniques. In the end I give up trying to apply any wing chun technique and just fight. I won some of my sparring matches without using a single wing chun technique. If I tried to use wing chun techniques, I got beaten up like a human punch bag. When I told my teachers and classmates about my experience. They all told me that I had not trained enough and I should be able to this and this. Well. I could not do a thing in those sparring matches, even against a beginner!
I was training 2 hours per day, 7 days a week. l also sparred with people for about 1/2 hour, three times a week. This was when I was very dedicated and had the time.
I finally figured out what was wrong with my wing chun and how to apply it by reading various articles on diffferent web sites. The head of my former wing chun organisation had not taught people properly. He taught people some techniques and expected them to apply them in a fight. The techniques would work, if you were fighting a dummy, who just stand here and let you hit him.
Know the technique is not enough. You need to be taught how to apply it, inorder to use them in a fight.
However, this is my experience and it may not apply to you.

You have obviously reached a very high standard in wing chun than me. My current level is only a beginner. Is it possible for you to show us a 20 second video clip of yourslef using your wing chun technques in a sparring match? Hopefully, I will be able learn something from you and also change my way of thinking.


wc fighter

Why not attack his leading arm with a pak sao, and punch him at the same time?
This way he can't use his lead arm since you are controlling it, and if he attempts to use his rear arm to punch you, you can turn your punching hand into a bil sao, and punch him with the hand that was previously doing a pak sao?

The whole process took less than 1.5 or 1 seconds. I was not fast enough to change direction, inorder to attack him. The problem is not about how fast I am, but how soon I can change from one technque into other, after identify his technique. My reponse time is much slower than his action. Therefore, I got hit.


Thank you for all your help

Hitman

[Liddel]

So many variables - its hard to say this or that -

My advice
- Throw punches in bunches, not single actions, especially against a boxer !
- Dont use Tan Sao against overhands ! :rolleyes:
- Dont block your chest, block your head. If you have Good VT structure your elbows should block lower areas.
- Dont chase the hands (especially when wearing gloves) just cover and catch the body.

And most of all dont think getting hit is bad - getting knocked out is bad,
- everyone gets tagged sometime....it improves HEART which is very crucial :D

[Edmund]

If your right hand is busy doing a pak sao, I would say you'd have to use your left.

[Lindley]

Hitman,

How long have you been training?

In fighting "Ving Tsun" you must use the principles and not limit yourself to a specific techniques for a specific situation.

First, you say you attacked him to the head. Is he taller or shorter than you are? If he is not the same height as you, then you are NOT using the centerline principle of Ving Tsun - the shortest between two points is a straight line. You are now compromising your body structure and most likely your facing.

Second, if you "attack" his head, AND he has time to move it and respond with his own technique, then where was your other hand? Sounds like it was doing nothing, and this leads to an imbalance of using your two hands. Another principle of Ving Tsun is hand unity/hand replacement. Both hands should be moving forward, with your body, so that you "wedge" into him. Thus the more desireable technique might have been a left hand tan sao that shoots toward his shoulder (not out to block his right arm) at the same time as your punch, thus the two hands come in as one under the support of your body. In this case, the tan sao is ready for the follow up technique after the punch. Sounds like your punch stayed out there with no support from the other hand.

The beauty of Ving Tsun is to make use of the Lin Sil Di Dar principle, techniques that simultaneously defend and attack.

Good luck with your Kung Fu....

[Chief Fox]

Boxers don't protect their legs or their groin.

Don't try to adapt your fighting style to fit theirs. Make the boxer adapt. Use your legs, make him drop his hands and WAMMO!

[couch]

So many variables - its hard to say this or that -

My advice
- Throw punches in bunches, not single actions, especially against a boxer !
- Dont use Tan Sao against overhands ! :rolleyes:
- Dont block your chest, block your head. If you have Good VT structure your elbows should block lower areas.
- Dont chase the hands (especially when wearing gloves) just cover and catch the body.

And most of all dont think getting hit is bad - getting knocked out is bad,
- everyone gets tagged sometime....it improves HEART which is very crucial :D

I like this advice. I was watching some boxing in review on TV at a Boston Pizza. Some IN THE CORNER with "what's-his-long-name..." anywho, one clip was of the greatest upset for 2006 and they showed this one clip of one guy getting cranked it the head with his opponent's left...he ate the shot like nothing on the chin and cranked back with an overhead right...

Knockout!

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Matrix]

I think Terrence has the right answer = Sparring.
Any type of formulated response such as "he did this" so " I should do that" is just mental gymnastics, IMO.

From the initial post, I have two questions;

1- Why are you "attacking the head"?.... versus attacking the shape and searching for a bridge? Go for the centerline. Don't chase hands and don't go for the hit prematurely. The hit will come if you're patient.

2- Since you went for the hit rather than attack the shape, then what are you doing with your footwork at that time? In other words, your scenario is focused entirely on the upper-body. You can bridge at the legs as well, where you can disrupt balance. You don't even need to get him to drop his hands, you just can't let him dance around with full balance and footwork unimpeded. Remember that his power also comes from the ground, so cut off the power supply if you can. I think Chief Fox's comment of not giving up your strategy to fight someone else's game is right on.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"1- Why are you "attacking the head"?.... versus attacking the shape and searching for a bridge? Go for the centerline. Don't chase hands and don't go for the hit prematurely. The hit will come if you're patient." (Matrix/Bill)


***I AGREE with this almost completely. But I'd just change one word. Instead of going for the Centerline - go for the Central Line(s)...specifically...the two vertical lines drawn down towards the floor from his two shoulders. Attack these two lines with a stiff boxing type lead (immediately followed by a boxer's rear cross)...if you're in matched leads...(and you're using a side body positioning of your centerline - and NOT with your centerline directly facing his Center Of Mass)....

or with a stiff straight lead coupled with a fairly extended wu sao with your rear hand (so that both of his shoulder/central lines are covered)...if you're cross armed vis-a-vis the opponent. (Again: no direct facing with your centerline).

This will help you to find open targets...or build a bridge...into close enough territory so that a hit will be there for you with some patience - and now you can face your centerline to his COM.

Remember - the stiff leads and the rear cross are meant to bridge the gap/find openings/take space/build a bridge (limb-to-limb contact)....they are NOT meant to score powerful or penetrating hits on main body, head, or face targets.

But you have to "sell" this by making those punches fast enough, powerful enough, and close enought to main body targets (ie.- his pec areas around his shoulders) so that he HAS to block, move, parry, etc.

And throw the leads and crosses like a boxer does - with the elbows fairly up - and NOT down at your sides and in like it is done in "pure" wing chun. (The slightly-more-raised elbows will provide more protection for your body and head from longer range - making it much more difficult for him to land hook/round punches as you try to come in with your straight punches).

This method works very well for me.

[Matrix]

***I AGREE with this almost completely. But I'd just change one word. Instead of going for the Centerline - go for the Central Line(s)...specifically...the two vertical lines drawn down towards the floor from his two shoulders. Attack these two lines with a stiff boxing type lead (immediately followed by a boxer's rear cross)...if you're in matched leads...(and you're using a side body positioning of your centerline - and NOT with your centerline directly facing his Center Of Mass)..... Victor,
I think that for the target area that you've identified is not the most efficient - at least not for me. If I strike for the pecs, it's really quite easy for the opponent to slip the punch. If you have David Peterson's book (see page 24), he illustrates the concept very well. If this strategy works for you, then that's great. More power to you. I definitely see where you're coming from, I just have a slightly different perspective.

Besides, I'm not really targeting a specific body part since that can lead to chasing-hand-like behavior. I really just want to direct my energy to the center of mass and work with what's given when I bridge. If the bridge is a hit, that's fine, a 2nd one is on the way. if I bridge with an arm or leg that will work too. I don't want to be dependant on having to "sell" something since he may not be in a mood a buy. ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If I strike for the pecs, it's really quite easy for the opponent to slip the punch." (Matrix/Bill)


***I WAS using the pecs as a point of reference (since the pec area is close to the "center" of where his arms/hands might be positioned).

As you know - in TWC we monitor the 4 points very vigilantly (both elbows and knees)...with particular attention paid to his lead elbow (since it's his closest weapon)..

So for example, if he's in a boxing stance wherein his lead arm is being held very low (ala Muhammad Ali, sometimes...) and his rear hand is up near his head...then I've monitored that and would throw my lead (if we're in matched leads)....I'd throw it LOW - so that it covers the line closest to where his lead is...and my rear cross would be thrown toward the upper pec area (near where his rear is positioned).

So that he wouldn't be "slipping" my punches to attack on another easily accessible open line.

So you see, I'm not chasing "hands" - I'm chasing LINES. Clogging up lanes. Those exact lines/lanes that he'd have to use unless he wanted to resort to taking big hooking, round, or uppercut swings. I'm eating up the most valuable real estate in the game at the moment.

[Hitman]

My training partner is the same height as me. His head was the nearest target to my hand at that time.

How long have you been training?

2 & 1/2 years in the class and on and off for about 8 months. I have left class after becoming totally disappointed with my wing chun class. I have seen a classmate with at least 5 years of training, got hit by a person with couple months of training. Not sure how many hours he had put into his wing chun training.

My teachers' replies were always the same, "anything can happen in a fight". I agreed that anything could happened in a fight. However, how could a person spent 5 years of his life training and got hit by the first punch throw by some one, who had less skill than him? If you could not even defence against someone, who was not trying to hurt you, then how could you defend yourself agaisnt someone, who wanted to hurt you?
What had we been learning all this time, wing chun dance or wing chun fighting arts?

We were not taught properly, as the head of the organisation was more interested in milking his students than teaching. I know the first and second wing chun forms, but not the applications. If I wanted to learnt the application of first form, I have to buy the head instructor's DVD or turn up in his seminar (extra cost).

Thank you

[k gledhill]

I would manouver as we do infront of the dummy ,to always try and be outside his strong hand [as long as possible] imagine hes the dummy and moving around in front of you ,not static. Try constantly facing your attacking line [ his head ]with chumkil in a side stance [ no lead leg ] trying to [ wait as mentioned ] for opportunity...Victors direction is similar to mine, only I describe it as seeing the body divided by a line ; fight one side of the body [his 1 arm v your 2 + a leg dont fight on equal terms]...manouver for the sides like the dummy shift without overturning to change direction at the last milisecond, etc.. to draw into over extension... be patient ...you may be fighting his cardio levels too, this isnt as visible as we'd like but for boxing /rounds , pace yourself and see if he's fit ...look for telegraphed shots , read his way , beware feints to draw you...throw feints to see his response , 'file them' and then when you see something that you can exploit send the feint and follow in...parries with low line stop kicks [if kicking is allowed in this sparring session]
....manouver to the sides and never want to be front and center to HIS centerline ,because this means your fighting 2 armys coming from either side of your 1 , your turning to defend one and he attacks the other ....or like having someone throw water at you ...just manouver out of the potential path of water.....try to always shift and be as evasive , lively, dont be robotic and dont use your arms like static blocks ..boxers FLOW because they are simply hitting , be simple back just use a tactical approach to manouver at the last second into turning punches across his armms if you can ..., if you are your being attacked and 'defending' ...try to counter attack his attack to take the attacking initiative away and ' beserk' him :D but like liddel mentioned taking flak is 'war' so mind set yourself to attack him not defend, if you attack for 9 out of 10 seconds HE is defending for 9 IN THEORY LOL :D hope it helps

vt is teaching the art of attack.....the slt is the small angle in front of your body/head it should be impenetrable from elbows in and forearms covering hands centered....the chum kil is the larger triangle that takes the smaller slt triangle to the sides of the attacking line [ whtevr line comes first]
once you decide to go in you can adopt a lead leg and charge ! like a cavalry into the battle..
fight in this 'bubble' manouver the army 'chumkil' to the sides of the advancing army...use the techniques of simply striking across the arms or parrying these weak sides of the attacker...always manouver for this ...once you see the weak flank you dont hesitate and get in to finish...like a machine gunner on a flank waiting for the advancing line to get close enough and have only the nearest to you being able to fight...wait for the distance /timing/ be ready to move if they try to flank you..be balanced and float like a butterfly sting like Mr Ali.

Theres a lot more but the tactics should help..dont fight facing like chisao TRAINING, we only do this face on to allow each other to strike across outr bridges and train good bong, paksao etc.. traps ...BUT think to TACTICLY fight 1 arm/side when you use these chisao attributes...good distance to maintain while the guy retreats 'stick to distance' "stay with waht comes from the flanks and follow through as it retreats, trapping him so he cant bring his 2nd army back into the fight ....hitting dont over stick for stickings sake..keep hitting with 2 hands after a parry...ATTACK , I think you get the idea now ?
In war you kill the general sitting at the top of the hill [ his head] and the army falls apart.... so aim to kill the general asap dont spend time with the army itself .

http://home.earthlink.net/~wslnyc/

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victors direction is similar to mine, only I describe it as seeing the body divided by a line ; fight one side of the body [his 1 arm v your 2 + a leg dont fight on equal terms]...manouver for the sides"...

***THAT'S EXACTLY the main strategy in TWC (it's called fighting on the Blindside). But what I was describing earlier were certain points of entry tactics using boxing from long range that might be part of the blindside strategy (as in the case of matched leads)....but also knowing how to fight from the cross arm position is also very important - as well as learning how to transition from cross arm/cross leg to blindside parallel arm/leg (matched leads).

[Lindley]

Hitman,

There is a saying - "perfect practice makes perfect..." as opposed to just practice makes perfect. The quantity of years, especially in this case, is almost meaningless. The ability to fight cannot be "taught".

Ving Tsun is a system of fighting which allows us all to "discover" things which may be used to understand our fighting ability. You should master the basics of Ving Tsun and then, if fighting proficiency is what you are looking for, do the things necessary to facilitate this. As mentioned, you must find the people like minded to yourself and spar more. But I would advise that you take the approach of learning something from sparring. Don't expect that just because you are learning Ving Tsun you are going to be good at sparring. We sometimes say "the crazy guy off the street" may have more Kung Fu that you! This is because of his intent. One does not realize how much courage and honesty it takes to put your hands on someone else, and especially how powerful your intent needs to be. Our character is attached to this.

Try not to be too literal about the solutions posted, as they are from the experiences of the poster. They can only be but a guide and you must find out on your own by your own experience. See if your boxer "friend" can slow it down for you so you can "see" and discuss this. Our VIng Tsun Chi Sao is an exercise that allows two people a laboratory to slow down and discuss things. Often times in full contact "cooperative" sparring (meaning not sparring at a tournament or contest level) someone with a successful technique is often not too willing to discuss this, but will use it until someone "figures out" how to counter it.

I am sorry your organization seems to "milk" students for money. Can you go into more detail about why you feel this way?

[Wayfaring]

I would mainly think this is a timing problem. It sounds like the boxer is slipping your lead jab and answering with an overhand right, then usually a left hook. You're getting tagged by the left hook because both of your hands are tied up dealing with his overhand right.

That is something boxers train pretty consistently, so his timing is better than yours on it. Normally, most straight boxer punches with elbows out are easy to deal with using biu jong structures, but the problem here is he's timing the slip and overhand right at the same time as your jab, so you probably don't have time to react properly, and are reacting when he's already inside your reaction time with a wu hand pak sao. Then you're wide open to the hook.

I'd suggest feinting the lead jab to try and draw out the overhand right rather than fully committing to the jab. Then you can deal with the overhand right with your left hand biu jong structure, while stepping toward your left to cut off the angle. Then you have a straight line to center jaw with the right hand, which will beat his longer route to you with the left hook.

This is one way of dealing with that problem with technical specifics.

Another option I'd say is train your jabs to be able to snap them better. A jab should be a punch that's not telegraphed and too quick to slip effectively. Yours obviously isn't.

Outside of that I'd agree with Terrence that you need to test all of this out sparring after you get the movements down so your timing improves.

[Hitman]

I am sorry your organization seems to "milk" students for money. Can you go into more detail about why you feel this way?

The head of my school, master X, could apply his wing chun in a fight and his wing chun was very good. However, he liked to produce half-bucketful instructors in order to attract more students. Those instructors then taught us. He told us that what we had learnt was very deadly and we could defend ourselves in a fight. On his web site, he stated that you were learning self-defence. In his advert he claimed that he was teaching self-defence. Whenever some one enquried about the school, the replies were always the same. "You were learning self-defence and wing chun".

We were show some techniques by master X in some seminars. He always using his saleman's pitch and told us that those techniques were very deadly and we could defence ourselves. Bascially we were being brain washed into believing everything he said was correct, without question it. Those techniques would work, provided we had drilled them thousand of times against an un-cooperated partner and understand the mechanics behind them. He was showing us the techniques, instead of teaching us. We could save ourselves a lot of money by learning from a book, instead of attending his classes.

When we were doing the chi sau exercises. There was almost no explaination what we were supposed to do. We were told to do this and this. Bascially, we did the chi sau exercises totally wrong, unless our training partners had some ideas they were supposed to do. You could be making the same mistake for 5 years and no body would correct you.

We only learnt the forms in wing chun, but not the application and hidden meaning about them. Some of us did the forms totally wrong.
We could not ask any question, because we did not know what questions to ask.
I questioned master X about how effectively some of his techniques were in a real fight. I had demonstrated and proved to him that some of his techniques would not work that well in a real fight. He told me that I was being awkward and did not answer my questions.

Some of the students had been assulted on the streets, and most of them had forgotten their techniques during the fights. They fought like a 5 years old child or human punching bag. The teachers' replies were always the same "anything could happen in a fight". If the school was claiming to be teaching wing chun as a self defence. The students had learnt wing chun (self defence) for 3 years, then why were they behaving like a 5 years old in a fight and not using what they had learnt when fighting against untrained people?
Answer - we had not been taught properly.

My former flat mate was weak and slow. He did not do any exercise. He and his girlfriend both did not know a thing about martial arts. However, he could punch me at will and I could not stop any of his punch, that was before I learnt wing chun. After spending two and a half years learning wing chun. I still could not stop one of his punches hitting me. This led to his girlfriend telling me that: “your kung fu was useless! You need to find yourself another school!”
My flat mate told me that my kung fu stink, my teachers stink and my wing chun organisation was a BS organisation! It was a waste of time learning from master X. He should be my teacher instead! Even though he did not know a thing about martial arts! This was their opinion about me and master X's kung fu. They made those comments, based on how I fight! Their point of views were: I have wasted my money and time learning from master X, when there were no improvement in my fighting skills. They were right!
My fighting skills has improved, since I left my former organisation and started questioning everything I had learnt.

Master X and other kung fu teachers could get away milking their students, because most of them did not know a thing about martail arts. They only wanted fast food kung fu and believing that they could defence themselves after 2 years or less, without putting in the hard work - sweat, blood, frustation, time and pain.

[Lindley]

Hitman,

Sorry to hear about such an experience.

Although learning Ving Tsun cannot guarantee fighting ability, students can typically defend themselves against an unskilled opponent with just the basic Jong Sao (ready position) and chain punching up the centerline.

We say in Ving Tsun "don't waste time". Look for another instructor or school that more adequately meets your needs. Seek a relationship with the instructor and their senior students, one that instills confidence in your ability to meet your goals. Obviously, your current organization is not doing this. Go forward with humility, accepting your own responsibility as well as to why you are not where you should be. Two and a half years should be time enough to create a foundation. Try to be consisten - eliminate the "off and on".

Good luck with your kung fu...

[k gledhill]

Hmmm sounds bad ! but you gained experience and can only go up and forward on your way..dont be disheartend. Theres a more out there keep looking , meanwhile keep punching bags ;) bottom line , have a good punch regardless of what name it fights under :D

[t_niehoff]

From my perspective, it comes down to appreciating what it means to have a "game".

A technique cannot defeat "a game". It takes "a game" to defeat "a game". What I mean by that is that - for example - if you are in someone's guard, having some technique, a bite or footlock, won't help if the other guy has a guard "game". You need a complete in-the-guard game to survive and be successful in the guard. Similarly, while the sprawl is a great way to stop a shoot, it alone won't help you against a good wrestler; you need a complete takedown defense "game" because a good wreslter has a complete takedown game. Tactics, techniques, attributes, etc. are all part of having a game.

Similarly, if you face a striker of any skill, they will have a complete stand-up striking game. A pak da, for example, won't work unless it is part of a complete game. Just as a slip won't be of much use for a boxer unless it is part of a complete game.

The only way to develop a game is by playing the game (sparring). And it helps if you have a trainer who knows how to help you develop a game (it can speed up the process). Developing a game is a problem solving process. There are no shortcuts and no one can tell you *how* to do it. You can only find *your* game yourself (those things that work for you, putting them together, etc.) through the hard work of playing the game against other skillful fighters.

Terence

[kung fu fighter]

In my experiences the most difficult boxers for a wing chun fighter to handle are the ones that uses alot of looping/hooking punching combination combined with angular footwork and body evasion (picture a young mike tyson). They are more than willing to give up centerline to deliver a powerful knockout hook even at the cost of taking a jab like punch. They cover up well (turtle) and use body faints to set up openings causing a wing chun fighter to commit early and misjudge timing. They don't give a dam about creating a bridge or occuping centerline, their goal is just to hit you as direct as possible, ofetn going around any obstruction to find their target in order to knock you out.

What strategies would some of you guys recomend in the above situation?

In my opinion a good strategy is to continually step with your lead foot to the outside of his lead foot like in the clips below!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-e3a2tw90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG1WC982Ma8

[Ultimatewingchun]

AGREED.

They are the toughest boxers to deal with - since they offer no extended arms/hands to bridge off from. They wait for you to attack the "center"....and then they hook/loop/uppercut/overhand around you. (Or they work their way into your space and attack with those punches blatantly, ie.- whether you've attacked first or not).

That's just another reason why I punch into LINES with BOXING type leads and crosses - and NOT at their direct center...

as a way to get into closer wing chun range - AND CONTROL THE FIGHT AND THE TEMPO BY ATTACKING FIRST. And be prepared to block/capture/redirect their round punches with the following:

I’m in the right neutral side (body) stance described earlier (OR A SIDE BODY FRONT STANCE) - and in a parallel position to the opponent’s leading left arm/left leg forward stance. (This example will also introduce us to a specific technique that is a trademark defense in TWC vs. hook punches). Suppose the opponent throws a left hook at my head. I lift my right foot, turn my main Centerline to face northeast, and step out moving east (and slightly north), placing my right foot down east of his left foot (the correct parallel foot placement) - while directly facing the point of contact on his punching arm with the imaginary horizontal line extending out from my solar plexus (which of course corresponds to our MAIN middle-of-the-body vertical centerline).

Now the “point of contact” referred to earlier is in this instance the spot right near the INSIDE of his arm where the elbow joint connects his lower and upper arm. I use my right arm to block and parry this area with BIL SAO that converts instantly at contact to a LOP SAO - while punching him in the face (or perhaps at his shoulder joint) with my left fist.

The punch came out on the western side of the Central Line and I blocked/redirected with bil/lop sao on my CENTERLINE (which is now being defined as simply another point along the Central Line). Upon reflection, one will discover that the overlapping definitions should not be a point of confusion. Both definitions are correct.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Thank for your commments. They are interesting.
Trapping does work against a boxer, but you will need a lot of practise to make it work. James Demile said that Bruce Lee trapped his hands when they first fought. He claimed to be the former boxing champion in the army of America.

Hitman