treadmill vs street/track running

[BruceSteveRoy]

for any of you out there that run frequently i am curious to know your thoughts on treadmills vs running outside. i find that i can easily run 3 miles on a treadmill and come off and i am sweating but i am not really winded. i can run about 1 mile and a half outside before i am so winded that i feel like i am going to pass out. my theory is that bc the treadmill keeps you at a steady pace or if you increase speed it does so gradually that i am able to exert less energy. when i run outside i think i am slowing down and speeding up more frequently and sporadically. so a) do any of you have similar experiences with treadmills and outside running? and b) in your opinion does it mean i am getting a better workout from running outside bc its harder work or am i getting better work out from the treadmill bc i can do it longer and thus get my heart rate up for a longer period of time? as always any feedback is appreciated.
~Steve

[Su Lin]

I was doing quite a bit of treadmill training a while back and had the same problem.Like you say,perhaps its the constant pace and the momentum from the machine keeping you going at a steady pace. Do you push yourself really hard on it?
I found that it was transferring to running outside at all , that i too was struggling.I gave up the gym treadmill and started doing much more running outside as I preferred the air and just generally being outside of the gym too ,I also started fell running which got me fit really quickly (although I had to quit as I got achilles tendonitis)
Im just starting to run again now, doing about 8k twice a week alongside my 3 kf training sessions.
I have spoken to other people about the treadmill thing and they said similar things too.
Im not sure which would give you the better work out though , have you monitored your heart rate doing both types of running?

[SevenStar]

1. different terrain
2. weather
3. concrete vs tread
4. natural shape of the terrain vs an unnatural incline/decline

I'm sure this and other factors all play a part.

[BruceSteveRoy]

Do you push yourself really hard on it?
i generally do a minute light jog to warm up then i do about a 9 minute mile, then speed it up to do an 8 minute mile, then speed it up to do a 7 minute mile, then speed it up and do a minute as fast as i can (or as fast as i feel safe on a machine that won't stop if i do) and then a 5 minute light jog to cool down. so not too hard usually. if i do the sprint at the end i am winded but if i don't it feels like i might has well gone for a walk in a park. breathing that is. the heart rate is always up.


Im not sure which would give you the better work out though , have you monitored your heart rate doing both types of running?

i have checked my heart rate on the treadmill but not when i run outside. i notice that my asthma is sometimes triggered when i run outside and i have to use my inhaler. so i don't run outside that often just bc asthma sucks but i have yet to have that happen on a treadmill.

[Chief Fox]

I run.

Currently, you are getting a better workout on the treadmil. And you're exactly right as to why. You don't have to regulate your pace at all. You have the machine do it for you. The machine keeps you on track to achieve your workout goals. But if you could regulate your pace better on your own, I feel that you would get a much better workout running outside.

Personally, I hate running on treadmils. I honestly can't think of anything more boring.

I like running outside much more. I just find it to be more rewarding. I enjoy the outside air. I never get stuck next to a woman who has way too much perfume on to be at the gym. I'm out there on my own, in my own little world. I love it.

So, how do you regulate your pace outside?

You have to run a pre-measured route. Like a track. 1 lap around the track is about 1/4 mile. You can look at your watch and calculate your pace and adjust accourdingly. You can do this until you get a good feel for what your pace is.

I run on a trail that has 1/4 mile markers on it. I also know certain landmarks on my trail that fall at .5 miles, 1 mile and 1.5 miles. Looking at my watch, I know what my pace is. I know if I'm running too fast, right on pace or slower than usual.

Is this the only running workout you do? How often do you do it? What are your running goals?

Your current workout is what is know as an tempo run and could be done on a track very easily. You are slowly building your speed through out the workout.

Most running programs run tempo runs only once a week to build speed. Other common elements of running programs are long runs, intervals, f@rtleks and hill repeats. Long runs are designed to build your aerobic base. Intervals, tempo runs and f@rtleks are all designed to build speed. Hill repeats are for strength.

Most running programs recommend that you build a solid aerobic base, making sure you are running with proper form before working on speed.

Another reason to varry the type of running workout you do is to avoid injury.

One last thing. The treadmil is a very different running surface than you will find out side. Sidewalks are made of concrete and are very hard on your body if you don't have good form. Asphalt is a little better. Trails are even better, so is the track and grass is the best or least harmful on your body.

A treadmil has A LOT of give and if you try to do the same workout outside on a different type of surface you could end up getting injured. Usually these injuries happen in the form of tendonitis like what Su Lin had.

So after all of that, here is my recommendation.

Let's say that you do your running workout on the treadmil 3 times a week. I would try to replace one of those workouts with an outside run. Make this outdoor run your "long run" but at first don't worry about mileage. Just go out and run for 30 minutes or so. Take it very slow. Almost too slow. So slow you feel like you could almost walk faster. After a few weeks of this, try to slightly increase your pace or your mileage. Meaning if you're running 3 miles then only boost your miles to like 4 miles. Stay there for a weeks weeks and then boost it up to 5 and so on.

Depending on your goals you can keep slowly ramping up your mileage. Personally I think a solid 6 mile run is great.

So there you have it. Keep in mind that this post is chock full of my opinions and they may not be shared by everyone and honestly aren't right for everyone either. So take all of this for what it is worth.

I think you'll find that after you get running outside down you'll start to dread the tread.

good luck. Let me know if you have any questions. Sorry about the long post.

[Su Lin]

Great post Chief Fox, yeah I would go with what he says Steve!

I used to be troubled by asthma ,I never ran at school because of it,but when I took it up again a couple of years ago I started out slowly,and eventually it really seemed to help me. I now barely ever use my inhaler.

Good luck with it :)

[BruceSteveRoy]

thanks! thats good advice. i will begin switching one of my runs to outdoors this weekend. i think i have a track right down the street from my house so that works out nicely. right now i work out about 4 times per week. mostly running unless my knees are not doing well then i use the eliptical. i use the stationary bike a lot and do intervals on that. i also do some core weight training. and then i am averaging about 3-4 days per week at kung fu. some weeks more some less. so thats a lot of indoors exercise. maybe the outdoors will do me good. thanks again.

[Chief Fox]

Well I hope it works out for you.

I reallly just love running outside. I have several trails that I regularly run. Running on single track is probably the best. Keep at it.

[Su Lin]

Fell running is awesome (fells are small mountains over here in England btw) ! The feeling when you get to the top is great,but running back down can be pretty painful too.:(


(I'm not stalking you CF,honest)

[Chief Fox]

Have you seen Braveheart with Mel Gibson?

There's a scene at the end of that movie were he's running along the top of this mountain ridge. As a runner, I think it's the coolest scene. There's a trail that i run, while it's not as cool as that scene, it does remind me of it.

I just read a book called Chi Running. It's about applying the principles of Tai Chi to running and running injury free. It's a great book. I recommend it to anyone who has an interest in running.

That's ok SL, I'm a little guilty of stalking you. I just checked out your Myspace. I see that you also moutain bike and road ride. I do too. I have a Raleigh hard tail moutain bike and a custom titanium road bike. Oh, and how about a picture with a smile. :D

[Su Lin]

Hahaha!
Sounds like an interesting book ,will have a look for it. I have a kona mtb and a lovely silver Specialized road bike (on which I am supposed to be going out on Sunday as need to do lots of pre skiing exercise :) )
Hmm picture with a smile ey, I wouldn't look as moody and kick ass then though.I'll see what I can do.:p

Not seen Braveheart, but I ran up a mountain near Coniston Old Man in the Lake District (Cumbria) and that was pretty cool.I know a mountain with a big ridge but I have a fear of falling off it.:o

[jigahus]

I have an elliptical machine plopped in front of a TV. I am not bored when I get my cardio. Heh.

[Chief Fox]

Hahaha!
Sounds like an interesting book ,will have a look for it. I have a kona mtb and a lovely silver Specialized road bike (on which I am supposed to be going out on Sunday as need to do lots of pre skiing exercise :) )
Hmm picture with a smile ey, I wouldn't look as moody and kick ass then though.I'll see what I can do.:p

Not seen Braveheart, but I ran up a mountain near Coniston Old Man in the Lake District (Cumbria) and that was pretty cool.I know a mountain with a big ridge but I have a fear of falling off it.:o

You have this look on your face that is hard to read. I'm sure that's the way you like it. It sorta looks like the "I'm gonna kick you in the side of the head as soon as you're done taking the picture" look. Is that what you were thinking?

You're a skiier too? I'm a snowboarder. It's too late for pre skiing exercise around here though. We've had snow for weeks. We just got a few more inches this morning and right now it's 8° F outside.

[Su Lin]

I think I was trying for the "going to kick you in the head " look :)

I am a skier,well,whenever I can,which isn't very often. Got my own lovely kit though so would like to go more.I'm off to France a week today,but the snow isn't great at all. I fancy snowboarding but I may like it more than skiing and end up neglecting my skis,I also have a dodgy back so don't fancy the falling over on my ass all the time.:p :p

[Su Lin]

Myspace Pic Updated.:p

[Chief Fox]

Now I want to see some action photos of you kicking a photographer in the head!

I used to ski a lot but since I switched over to snowboarding, I haven't looked back. You're smart to stay on the skiis though if your back is kinda sketchy. When I was first learning, I spent plenty of time on my ass.

Are you trying to excite me by talking about your ass? ;)

[Su Lin]

:eek:

Nah I need to work on my technique before posting pics:o I may try boarding for a morning as we get free board hire included in the price. :p

[Chief Fox]

Sounds like fun. Can I come?

I expect there will be plenty of drinking and carrying on.

[Su Lin]

Nah not much boozing,not for me anyway ,I'm off it for training . Well,apart from the mulled wine in the mountain cafes and the compulsory apres ski beer.:)
Talking of running,I was meant to be doing a 10k race on Sunday but we found out this week it full up. Need to find another to do now.

[Chief Fox]

a 10K all filled up! Wow! There must be a lot of people running. So do you have a large running community where you live?

Running is very popular in my town. A few years back we made the top ten cities for running in the United States by Runner's World magazine. We have trails everywhere. It's great.

Are you sure that you don't want me to come on your skiing trip? We could take pictures of you kicking me in the head.

[Su Lin]

Go on then,we shall be in Chatel in France, near Geneva.:p

Yep there's a lot of running going on here, we were surprised it filled up really. It's a small city but there's a university,and seemingly lots of fit people who want to run!

We were going to wear our kf club uniforms too. Oh well, will just have to find a bigger,better ,longer run instead.:)

[Chief Fox]

It sounds like you've got a good group of people to train/run with. It would be pretty entertaining to see a group wearing their kung fu uniforms while running a 10k.

I'd love to go on a ski trip right now. My work has been very stressful lately. A ski trip is exactly what i need. Just hearing you talk about an apres ski beer sounds great.

Right now I can't imagine anything better then hitting the slopes in France, drinking an apres ski beer and getting kicked in the head by Su Lin.

At least I can dream. :D

[Su Lin]

Well I hope you get boarding soon.
Hmm perhaps I should try my kf kicks in my ski boots, good training. :p

[Chief Fox]

Well, I've got to finish some things up and get to the gym.

It's been nice chatting with you. You made this afternoon go by very quickly.

I hope you have a great trip.

Drink one of those apre ski beers for me. :)

[Su Lin]

Cool.well have fun at the gym .I'm off to get my beauty sleep now.:p

[Chief Fox]

I just saw your updated pic on Myspace. You don't need any beauty sleep at all.

This new pic also has a very interesting look. A smile but still an "I'm going to hurt you" look in the eyes.

I like it.

Sleep well.

[jigahus]

You two should get a room or take it to a private chatroom. :cool:

[Ford Prefect]

1. different terrain
2. weather
3. concrete vs tread
4. natural shape of the terrain vs an unnatural incline/decline

I'm sure this and other factors all play a part.

I'd add that a constant pace helps as well. If you are not used to running outside, you can easily push beyond a safe pace and gas out. This is so even on a track.

[Chief Fox]

The key is to use the meassured distance like a track as a tool to help you get a good feel for what your natural pace is. Once you do this, you'll become better a regulating your pace as well as increasing your pace.

For example: Let's say that you want to run a 9 minute mile.

4 laps around the track in 9 minutes.
This means that you should be at two laps in about 4:30.
You should be at 1 lap (1/4 mile) in about 2:15.
You should be at 1/2 lap (1/8 mile) in about 1:07.
You should be at 1/4 lap (1/16 mile) right at the top of the curve in about 0:33.

When you're running, look at your watch, see where you're at, then you'll know if you're going too fast or too slow for your desired pace and you can adjust.

The track is a great tool in helping you to learn how to regulate your pace.

[BruceSteveRoy]

hey chief or su lin have either of you ever attempted a triathlon? my wife is training for one at the moment and she keeps telling me i need to do one too. i don't even own a bike and i don't think i have ridden one in more than 15 years. but i hear its one of those things you don't forget how to do. just like riding a... well... a bike. but that and while i am bouyant to a certain extent i am not a strong swimmer. she got me a membership to the local pool so maybe i will try it. it really isnt on my list of things to do before i die though. anyway, i was just curious if you guys ever did it before.

[BruceSteveRoy]

o and chief i took your advice and timed myself and ran 2.25 miles and aside from my foot cramping from my new running shoes i was ok for the run and even had enough left over to sprint at the end. so yeah i think its the steady pace that was the problem.

[Pork Chop]

I just saw your updated pic on Myspace. You don't need any beauty sleep at all.

This new pic also has a very interesting look. A smile but still an "I'm going to hurt you" look in the eyes.

I like it.

Sleep well.


BTW- that's me tryin to add some of u on myspace.
i think my username thing is porkchopfw
anybody else can feel free to add me
i want a collection of friends to rival that of mr sevenstar

[Su Lin]

I just let you add me.:) I only have 20 Myspace friends:(

[Pork Chop]

I just let you add me.:) I only have 20 Myspace friends:(

i'll give u some of mine... in fact i know 3 in particular that can't say "no" to a friend invitation from a lady. hehe

[Chief Fox]

hey chief or su lin have either of you ever attempted a triathlon? my wife is training for one at the moment and she keeps telling me i need to do one too. i don't even own a bike and i don't think i have ridden one in more than 15 years. but i hear its one of those things you don't forget how to do. just like riding a... well... a bike. but that and while i am bouyant to a certain extent i am not a strong swimmer. she got me a membership to the local pool so maybe i will try it. it really isnt on my list of things to do before i die though. anyway, i was just curious if you guys ever did it before.

I've done several triathlons. A bunch of sprint ones, a couple olympic distance ones and even one Half Ironman.

The sprint ones are pretty easy and fun. You end up feeling like you've just had a really good workout that lasted anywhere from 90 minutes to two hours.

The olympic ones are hard but in my opinon probably the best distance. The ones I did at this distance were offroad triathlons so that made it extra fun/painful.

The half ironman pretty much sucked. I honestly thought that I was going to die of heat stroke after I finished. But at least i finished :)

So what do you want to know? Is it worth it? I think so. It doesn't take much additional training to finish a Sprint Triathlon if you're in decent shape. The typical distances for a Sprint Tri are.

800 yrd. swim
15 mile bike
5k run

If your worst event is swimming then you're like most triathletes. When I started to train for swimming it was kinda funny really. I'd go to the pool and see all of these people there that had super smooth strokes. I'd jump in and flail about like I was drowning until I got to the other side of the pool. I was pretty much totally exhausted after just one lap. Then I read a book called "The Essential Swimmer (http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Swimmer-Steve-Tarpinian/dp/1558213864/sr=1-7/qid=1168964733/ref=sr_1_7/105-2589994-8938801?ie=UTF8&s=books)". That book has a lot of drills and workouts in it that really helped me become a much better swimmer. Then there are also tons of articles on the web about becoming a better swimmer too.

The key to swimming better for me was learing how to relax. I read one article about stroke length. It suggested counting how many strokes it took me to cross the pool. Your goal then becomes to cross the pool in less strokes. Really lengthen that stroke and stretch it out. It really helped me.

So anyway, good luck. Triathlons are fun. Let me know if you have any questions.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i am actually going to take swimming lessons at the pool. i figure that will help a lot. my wife is hinting that i should do a triathlon but i know her and this hinting will eventually mean me doing a triathlon. i guess its only fair i got her to try kung fu so its time for me to try to do what she likes. so yeah she is starting off with an olympic sized one. it is in florida this march or april. i am going to have to pass on that one bc it requires that we raise 4200 dollars in charitable donations for cancer research. so far she is at like 1200 dollars i think. we have to pay whatever the difference is if we don't raise it all. so i think 4200 is hard i am not about to put us on the hook for 8400 dollars. although it is for a good cause. i am a little intimidated by the idea of the 1 mile swim being in the ocean. i mean swimming a half mile out into the ocean seems like a bad idea. but what do i know? so anyway, how long did it take you to train to the point that you could complete an olympic length triathlon? how much time did you devote to training each portion?

[Su Lin]

Wow! Good luck with that!
I haven't done a triathlon,as my swimming isn't very strong really,but have thought about doing a duathlon instead. Your wife is very impressive!!! I couldn't attempt anything like that as I just dont like swimming enough to put the effort in (even though I should as I know it would help my bad back)
I say go for it,see how far you get-even if you don't end up doing a triathlon the training will do you so much good.

Chief fox-change of plan-we had our holiday destination due to poor snow,so I shall now be in Les Deu Alpes if you are passing.:p

[Chief Fox]

i am actually going to take swimming lessons at the pool. i figure that will help a lot. my wife is hinting that i should do a triathlon but i know her and this hinting will eventually mean me doing a triathlon. i guess its only fair i got her to try kung fu so its time for me to try to do what she likes. so yeah she is starting off with an olympic sized one. it is in florida this march or april. i am going to have to pass on that one bc it requires that we raise 4200 dollars in charitable donations for cancer research. so far she is at like 1200 dollars i think. we have to pay whatever the difference is if we don't raise it all. so i think 4200 is hard i am not about to put us on the hook for 8400 dollars. although it is for a good cause. i am a little intimidated by the idea of the 1 mile swim being in the ocean. i mean swimming a half mile out into the ocean seems like a bad idea. but what do i know? so anyway, how long did it take you to train to the point that you could complete an olympic length triathlon? how much time did you devote to training each portion?
I broke it down into about 9 workouts a week for the most part. 3 swims, 3 rides and 3 runs. Most weeks I only did 2 rides though.

I swam in the morning 3 days a week. Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
I ran 3 days a week. Tuesday & Thursday at lunch and Saturday mornings
I did one short hilly midweek ride in the evenings and a long ride on Sundays.

Sometimes I replaced the Sat. run with a "Brick" workout. A brick is a combination workout. You run a short run, then you do a short ride, then another short run. It's called a brick workout because you feet feel like they are made of bricks on the second run. It's hard.

Now sure how long it will take you to get up to speed with everything. Take it slow. I'm thinking like 12 or 16 weeks.

Good luck.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I am a distance runner. I run mile/2mile/5k/10k/half-marathon.

Just so you know I'm not talking about something I don't know, here's my record times for short distances:

Mile: 4.5 min.
2mile: Under 10 min. (And it should be noted....I got beaten
5k: 16.5 min. (pretty badly in every one of these races)

Treadmills are not useful for anything. Sorry. Some people may get benefits from them, but they're probably terribly out of shape to start with. If you're using one now, trash it. I can run world record miles on those things.

Actual running involves structure, something a treadmill will never let you establish. You have to focus on picking up your knees, actually reaching out in front of you with your lead leg (chicken-scratching), and picking up your heel (kicking your butt). I've tried this on a treadmill--I ended up kicking the machine half the time.:D , and the other half it constricted my stride by shortening it to accomodate the short tread. (A good stride is a thing of beauty---it covers so much ground!:cool: ).

Then there's the rhythm---something most people never get. Running involves rolling the hips. You don't just move one leg in front of the other. It takes full body coordination. Your hips must roll over with each stride. And just like kung-fu....keep that back straight! If you hunch over, even when you're tired, you will be literally running yourself into the ground. Keep upright, chin in, eyes lazily focused about 7-8 feet in front of you to scan the terrain.


Treadmills often encourage popping (rising and falling with each stride). This is something you want to avoid. You want to move forward, not up and down. If you tend to spring, focus more on picking up your lead legs and reaching out in front of you. There are drills for this, and I could post them if you're interested. The only time you pop (kind-of) is when attacking a hill. But even then, the popping is generated by pumping the arms and raising the knees. When you have good structure, even a killer hill won't phase you.

Next--try to focus on staying on the balls of your feet. You're not going to do this the entire run....but you're going to push off of them. When I run, my heels rarely touch the ground. This keeps you light and mobile.

Now, for landscape. I suggest making a trip to local parks and nature trails. Find a good 5 mile loop in a wooded area, preferably with a dirt/pinestraw trail. Don't run on rocks (bad for ankles---even the best of us occasionally roll an ankle on these), sand, or pavement. All of those breed bad running habits.

why no pavement? you ask. Well, pavement means cars. Cars mean exhaust. When you're breathing, you want to breath oxygen. Not pollutants. The only time I run on pavement is when I run a road race. I've never suffered for a lack of pavement practice......it's actually easier there (but not on hte knees).

In short: location improves your running experience/results. Find a good 5 mile outdoor loop on a nature trail (how I started), with several hills (the kind that will make you walk the first couple of times you attack them), and hit the course at least 4 times a week. Don't worry about time or speed. Worry first about endurance. Everything else will fall into place. You'll start to roll with the land, and anticipate the level of breathing/agresssion needed at each turn. After a while, change up the scene. Get a rotation of several places.

If you read any of this post, read this last statement: Running for a half-an-hour will do nothing to improve your running. You have to be going for about 45 min. to an hour to really make those big leaps in endurance, fitness, and speed. Once you push through the "wall"--that "Oh my god! I think I'm gonna die!" point--it's actually smooth sailing. Not always. But you'll often get a second wind.

Secrets of the trade.

But even I come out of a kung-fu class panting like a dog, with sore legs. Gotta be something to that, as well,:D ;) :cool: dude.

I find a horse stance session 10X more intense/beneficial than any five-mile run.