Do Tournaments hinder fighting ability?

[gazza99]

It is my belief that doing tournaments will hinder you in a real fight, you are training your reactions unrealisticly as you never really follow through. Of course you can gain things like timing, distance, etc..but are the gains worth the consequences? I have been in a few fights but not many tournaments perhaps others have a broader base for comparison and can provide some insight?
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[brassmonkey]

All tournament fighting or are we just talking point sparring? Let's hope lkfdmc doesnt see this one.

[gazza99]

all in general

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Mr. Nemo]

How else will you train your reactions?

[razakdigital]

Tournaments limited your ability to test ALL of your skills. Tournaments are important for the following reasons -

To test your bravery
To test timing
To test endurance
To test some techniques
To allow you to punch and kick very hard which most of us cannot do when sparring with friends and kung fu brothers.

Tournaments can be a pain in the a** because you have to train yourself for them for weeks and there is a lot of time and dedication for it. But in the scheme of things I ask how else to know if your training works?

[Nexus]

Gary, you should consider the fact that some of the absolute greatest players of the martial arts you are involved in were heavily involved in tournament fighting. It is a great "part" of your learning process, and it has many great values. It may not directly influence your survival rate in a real fight, but on the other hand it may. It will certainly not hinder you, as you will see that the techniques are the same as long as you have control of your power. Note the famous quote, "With power comes responsibility". I could attack my teacher full force and he wouldn't kill me, even if he has practiced so that he is capable of it. With his power and control of such, he is capable of handling such without that necessity. He at one point in his life participated in taijiquan tournaments, some 20 years ago I believe, and he has also judged them in the past. He doesn't do tournament fighting anymore, hasn't in the last 10 years or more as far as I know. One should probably not make it part of their training routine, but it does not hinder your ability to defend yourself. Your awareness & focus is the only hindrance.

I haven't participated in a tournament myself in 12 years.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Braden]

Gary -

I think tournaments are an excellent way of finding skilled opponents highly dedicated at resisting your techniques. There are also certain lessons in distancing and timing which are difficult to learn without tournament-style fighting.

That said, alot of people confuse tournament fighting for real fighting, which is detrimental. In alot of the more important ways, fighting in the ring is not just different, but the exact opposite than fighting on the streets. This is not just a philosophical difference, but should actually impact the technical training that you do - depending on whether you want it to be ideal for the streets or ideal for the ring. I do not think that many people understand this. This can be very detrimental.

On a somewhat similar thread a while back, I mentioned some of the ways I think tournament fighting is different than ring fighting. Check out my first post on http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=626191279&m=6171903772 . You can ignore the rest of the thread, as it's mostly useless.

[thumper]

I want to say yes, 100%, but Razak brings up one good point; testing bravery. Without bravery, you have NO skill. This is the only benefit I see. Being able to use your full power is important, but not that important. Have your partner put on some thick-ass pads and fire away. Timing, Endurance and Techniques can all be practiced with your kung fu family.

"it's all about the basics"

[toddbringewatt]

I want to say something about bravery. I used to get nervous at tournaments. Not a lot but definitely some.

Once I was attacked in Amsterdam on the street -- literally kicked in the eye out of nowhere. I located my attacker who was now standing directly in front of me with his fists up, scowling, ready and eager for another attack.

Because of my martial arts training -- not tournament experience -- I was dead calm. I decided I would simply take the guy out by whatever means neccessary if he came at me again. He stood there for a moment, ready to attack. I simply stood there looking at him, ready and waiting.

You know what he did? He turned and ran his ass off. Pretty wild, eh?

Anyway. My point is simply that I found myself far more brave when it really counted because I was not restricted to rules. I simply made a survival decision and was confident due to my training I could pull it off.

So I believe bravery will be there automatically when it counts if you've trained dutifully in an art form you are confident is effective.

There's also of course simply just the being's own general native ability to confront (whatever it is he finds before him -- no matter how potentially unsettling). But aside from this I believe training bolsters one's ability to confront and face danger with confidence immensely.

may the force be with you

[razakdigital]

NYC is a lot different. Thugs in the street would not run. You would have to beat them down for them to stop. Realistically, no one is going to look at your stance and run...no way not in NYC...in fact that is an invitation for them to take it another level...

[toddbringewatt]

I'm not into generalities. New York City? Amsterdam? Thugs in the street? Individuals are individuals and the truth is ANYONE could find himself in ANY senario ANYWHERE in the world.

Stance? That's funny. I wasn't in a stance. I just stood there looking at the guy calmly, waiting. I believe he was simply a coward who was hoping to take advantage of blindsiding me (I'm sure you have at least one coward in NYC, right?). When he saw that I was unrattled by the first attack and obviously unintimidated and now fully aware of his position and intentions and was cool enough in disposition not to simply lash back at him out of pure reaction, this was enough to scare him.

I am sure this sort of individual exists in every city on the planet, whether it be New York City or New Delhi. And I'm lucky this was his mindset. If it was not, I would have had to fight him.

But I digress. My point in the first post was merely to point out that bravery is not neccessarily something that is automatically cultivated by competition. It may be. But I've always been somewhat nervous in competition and the bravery I felt in a real life senario when it presented itself came purely from training two man drills -- and the resulting confidence I could apply these drills in the street.

I'm sure my response would have been the same even if I had been in New York City. Sure, I may have been attacked further and in that situation I would have to fight. Fine. But then again, in a New York senario, maybe the guy would have just laughed at me, patted me on the back and taken me out for a slice and a beer. Maybe he would try to sell me a stolen watch. Maybe he would pass out in a heroin nod. Maybe he would pull out a gun and shoot me. Maybe he'd be on PCP and rip his own eyeballs out of his head. Maybe he'd try to convert me into a homeless born again Christian. Maybe he'd slip on the ice he was standing on. In New York it snows you know. In New York people have accents. Maybe he would have barked something at me and I'd go, "What?" and he'd say "mya, mya, mya, something!" And I'd say, "Excuse me?" and he'd say, "mya, mya, mya, something." And then I'd say, "I'm sorry. I don't understand." And then he'd say, "God****it. Mya, mya, mya, something!!" And I'd go, "Dude. I'm sorry. I don't know what the hell you're saying." And then a cop on a horse would come by and shoot the guy 16 times, reload and shoot him 10 more times for good measure. And then there'd be this big story about it in the paper because the darnedest stuff happens in New York City, you know? And then the NAACP would get involved. And then again, you know, maybe he would have smiled and said, "You're on candid camera!" And then I would have won a trip to Mexico. I hear in Mexico City street thugs are TERRIFIED of stances. I could go there and subdue the entire city with a well rehearsed crane form. Then they would make me Mayor. And after winning two terms in office I'd run for President of all Mexico on a strict platform of well executed tiger claw techniques. And my first action as President would be to invade New York City on a mission to get everybody there to just lighten up a bit. We'd jump at dawn. My paratroopers would land and go around attaching little plastic flowers that squirt water from them onto the lapels of every New Yorker. Then we'd buy 26 million tickets to Broadway, give everybody the day off and take the whole city out for a good show. And everyone would leave the theater that night saying, "That was much better than Cats. I'm going to see it again and again." And before you know it the public will be so softened up that even THEY will be afraid of stances. And then I would show up in a stance and everybody would cower in fear but then I'd say, "Hey, I'm just joking. Let's all go out for ice cream!" And the city would cheer. But then again, maybe this New York City street thug attacking me would be gay and find me outstandingly attractive. Perhaps he would say, "My God! You're positively scrumptious! I need you! Come with me to the Casbah!!" And I would resist at first because I'm heterosexual and deeply in love with my girlfried. But wait. There's something about his stance. I find myself strangely attracted to this spunky little ****sexual New York City street punk with the sassy stance. And away we would fly!! Off to Paris for a whirlwind romance and a weekend in Bangkok (no pun intended). And then I would grow tired of him and realize that I was really only just experimenting. But alas. Perhaps my attacker would be extraordinarily sensitive to bad breath and the onion dog I had just eaten would just completely knock him over. Maybe if I were sucking on a tic tac this would mitigate the effects. Maybe in that case he would only waver a little, perhaps shake his head and even tear up a bit. But then again, New Yorkers are pretty tough. Maybe it wouldn't matter if I'd eaten that onion dog at all. Maybe this would only provoke him. Maybe if I could just shift my stance... ;)

may the force be with you

[This message was edited by toddbringewatt on 09-23-01 at 12:14 PM.]

[Mr. Nemo]

That last post was freaking weird.

[toddbringewatt]

That's the point. ;)

Hey, by the way, Mr. Nemo. I live in LA as well. Where do you study Tai Chi and Bagua? I'm still looking for a school. Do you like where you're studying?

may the force be with you

[razakdigital]

What are you talking about?

[toddbringewatt]

I guess my attempt at illustrating the futility of attempting to speculate how a hypothetical attacker might react mixed with sarcasm at the audacious prospect of speaking for the general assembly of all street thugs of the entire city of New York went thoroughly ungrasped and unappreciated. Oh, well. Sometimes you fail.

Try reading my post again and this time ignore the comedic rant at the end (like the whole last long paragraph of silliness). I know, comedy is a shaky and rather relative little beast. Please forgive the unsung attempt. I tried.

Shrug.

may the force be with you :)

[dedalus]

Hot ****! Being trapped in a beautiful climate sure twists the circuits. CMA evangelism has been taken to a whole new dimension of wierd-arse.

[This message was edited by dedalus on 09-26-01 at 04:57 AM.]

[toddbringewatt]

Dedalus,

What effect were you trying to create with that post?

[This message was edited by toddbringewatt on 09-26-01 at 06:15 AM.]

[razakdigital]

What the hell were you talking about?

[toddbringewatt]

Mind Boxer,

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Here, you posted:

"Good story but..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NYC is a lot different. Thugs in the street would not run."

Which thugs? Every thug in NYC? You've interviewed them?

"You would have to beat them down for them to stop."

Them who? All the thugs in New York again? All of them? This is the ONLY tactic which would work against THEM? Out of all the possible creative/communicative approaches this is it? Did you survey it? Test it? Are you sure?

"Realistically, no one is going to look at your stance and run...no way not in NYC...in fact that is an invitation for them to take it another level..."

I never said I was in any stance or that anyone looked at it and ran. I said I just stood there looking at the guy, you know, like any normal person on the street might stand?

Again you bring up NYC. I don't think NYC is that special a case compared to the rest of the world. Most inner city thugs in any city are a pretty violent lot.

As far as an invitation to take it to another level. Yes, I'm sure if I were standing in some kind of ridiculously obvious Kung Fu stance the guy would take it as a challange. This would be a very stupid thing to do.

I gave the guy an out by not reacting but by simply standing there looking at him, this time ready for his next attack.

See I think the guy was just a coward who was hoping to blindside me and take care of me that way. When it didn't work (his first attack) and he was faced with the prospect of taking me on face to face, he noticed how calm and willing I was to confront him and this frightened him. These kinds of cowards exist in NYC too. They're everywhere.

Moreover, my entire point with my original post was to simply say that I've been nervous in tournaments but when it came down to the real thing I was calm. And this was due to my two-man drill training not competition. I was commenting on bravery as it relates to tournament participation vs. simple training. That's all.

You brought up the generalities of "street thugs", "New York City" and "stances". I was simply responding to what I felt were the absurdities of those issues.

That's all. I ended my original post on the matter with a joke about pizza and beer to keep it light and as unoffensive to you as possible, then I just got carried away and went on a humorous rant and had fun with it.

Ever been a comedian in your own mind?


:)

may the force be with you

[hkphooey]

I've been browsing these forums for a long time now and I registered just to tell you that your email was BRILLIANT. Just wanted you to know that your humor was not wasted! Maybe it's a west coast thing...

I'm still laughing...

[toddbringewatt]

HKPHOOEY,

Hey, thanks, man. That's so cool of you! Welcome to the board. Nice to know my rant wasn't lost on the world.

Right on. Thanks again, man. :)

Take it easy.

P.S. What kind of analyst are you? Computer? Stock? Psyco-? Other?

may the force be with you

[Fish of Fury]

i liked it too, toddbringewatt

i always wanted to be a comedian, but everybody laughed at me. :(

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[razakdigital]

Sorry it took so long to reply to this post but I’ve been training for a tournament. Listen; first of all I have not interviewed every thug in NYC. My discussion was based on my life in NYC. My point was to bring that sometimes we live in fantasy worlds. Just because someone ran because you look at him has nothing to do with not fighting in a tournament. It was just like you said – he was a coward. My point that the thugs I know and seen would just get more pump to fight you. This is why we train in martial arts for combat. This is not a Shaw brother’s movie where someone thinks you are high level and bow down to you. Yes I was incorrect in my statement on stating about your stance. But, my the argument of my context still stands…

I agree, fighting in tournament can make you a little nervous because you have people watching you and your school depending on you. But how do you really let loose on some of your skills? I’m not high level so I fight to get better.

As for you being calm I’m happy for you because that’s what we are all trying to achieve. Let me ask you this though – he ran away from you. If he would have step to you and was ready to fight would you have still been calm? That’s the real test

[toddbringewatt]

Mind Boxer,

"West Coast humor, East Humor? Where is the humor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"

Who knows.

"Sorry it took so long to reply to this post but I’ve been training for a tournament."

Right on! I admire anyone who puts their martial arts to any kind of use (as long as it's ethical of course, which of course tournaments are).

"Listen; first of all I have not interviewed every thug in NYC."

I know.

"My discussion was based on my life in NYC."

Fair enough.

"My point was to bring that sometimes we live in fantasy worlds."

You must have missed my point entirely then. I never presented my story as a tactic. I wasn't making a recommendation. My point was that I discovered bravery in a situation that wasn't based on my experience in competition. My sense of calm came from hundreds and hundreds of two man drills.

If you are acusing me of telling a fantasy tale then that's its own issue.

"Just because someone ran because you look at him has nothing to do with not fighting in a tournament."

My point was not that he ran. My point was that I didn't run, or cave in, or get nervous and it was not from competition -- where I definitely had been nervous.

"It was just like you said – he was a coward."

Yes. That's right. Just like I said.

"My point that the thugs I know and seen would just get more pump to fight you."

You weren't there so it's really just pure speculation isn't it.

"This is why we train in martial arts for combat."

I wholeheartedly agree.

"This is not a Shaw brother’s movie where someone thinks you are high level and bow down to you."

Who said it was?

"Yes I was incorrect in my statement on stating about your stance."

That's alright. No problem.

"But, my the argument of my context still stands…"

No, it doesn't. See above.

"I agree, fighting in tournament can make you a little nervous because you have people watching you and your school depending on you."

And for other reasons.

"But how do you really let loose on some of your skills?"

You fight bare knuckle, no rules? If you don't, you're not fighting the way I would in an actual combat situation. So how do you really let loose? You don't until you do. So what?

But simulation can make you expert at anything. And two-man drills AND competition are ways to do it. By the way, I drilled killing man over and over in two-man drills. You can't really do this in a tournament.

"I’m not high level so I fight to get better."

Are you implying one can't get better without fighting? Or that I think I'm so high level or don't or can't get better the way I train? Or am not trying to get better? What are you saying here?

"As for you being calm I’m happy for you because that’s what we are all trying to achieve."

Thanks, man.

"Let me ask you this though – he ran away from you. If he would have step to you and was ready to fight would you have still been calm? That’s the real test."

Agreed? If you read my post again, you'll see he did step to me and was ready to fight. Truth is, the guy had his fists up and looked awful determined to take a piece of my hide.

Would I have still been calm even if he attacked? I think I would have. But again it's just speculation isn't it? So were you interested in my speculation? Or were you making a point?

Cordially,

Todd

P.S.

Just to clarify my original intention and point in all this. Bravery can be gained from training without tournament experience. I personally got a lot more out of drills than I did from competition.

But competition can certainly drill in a certain amount of bravery. That's for sure. I never denied that. And I'm sure different folks get different levels of positive effects from tournaments in this regard.

Tournament fighting does all of the things you mentioned it does in your original post. I completely agree. I simply wanted to add that there are other ways of achieving bravery and that perhaps competition isn't even the best or most efficient way. That is all.

may the force be with you

[This message was edited by toddbringewatt on 09-29-01 at 12:45 AM.]

[toddbringewatt]

Fish of Fury,

Thanks, man!

See, your first joke worked. They laughed at you. Keep going. :)

may the force be with you

[Fish of Fury]

me make joke? :confused:

:)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Scarletmantis]

Todd, thank you for having the patience to continue this little debate. It is the most entertaining post I've read in a long time.

I too am nauseated with the whole, "Ahm frum New Yohk, so ah must be tuff", line of reasoning. Not that you are... but many of us must be, since Raz has been around here for a long time posting the same assertion every stinkin' time someone mentions a real fight. Sigh. :rolleyes:

"Master, here is a stick. Please beat me for my insolence." - KC Elbows

[Esteban]

Hi,

I think both sides have a point, but that both are probably irrelevant. A determined opponent can win regardless of his prior training. Training will simply make him more efficient at carrying out his intention. Confidence will probably come from having practiced enough to condition one's responses. BTW, how could two-man sets actually prepare one for having a particular attitude (and non-action) any more than doing a tournament? It's the confidence and awareness that were at work. Practicing martial arts is only one way of achieving that state, and those goals. How you got it is less important, imo, than that you have it. Some buy .45s

Respects,
Steve

[razakdigital]

Listen, I don't give a **** if you don't like what I write. I don't put myself out like I'm tough but I talk about my reality. That is why I mention NY because again that is my reality. I just don't get it ... Martial Arts is a combat art. That is a fact. You train to learn how to fight. There is nothing wrong with discussing that. I'm not going to go back and forth with the same foolishness.

[toddbringewatt]

Mind Boxer,

I never said I don't like what you write. You have many good points that I quite agree with.

"Martial Arts is a combat art. That is a fact. You train to learn how to fight. There is nothing wrong with discussing that."

I wholeheartedly agree.

"I'm not going to go back and forth with the same foolishness."

I'm sorry that you consider this foolishness. I thought we were simply involved in an intellectual chit chat between men of good will. Oh well. No hard feelings I hope.

Scarletmantis,

Thanks for the moral support. Glad you've found it all interesting.

Esteban,

"I think both sides have a point, but that both are probably irrelevant."

I think both sides have a point too. It's just that my point didn't really have much to do with Mind Boxer's point.

My point was simply that one could attain bravery through the confidence attained from two-man drills. If this is irrelevant to you I'm sorry you wasted your time reading it.

"A determined opponent can win regardless of his prior training."

True.

"Training will simply make him more efficient at carrying out his intention. Confidence will probably come from having practiced enough to condition one's responses."

Well put.

"BTW, how could two-man sets actually prepare one for having a particular attitude (and non-action) any more than doing a tournament?"

You can't drill quickly maiming and killing a man in a tournament but you can do it all day long in a two-man drill.

"It's the confidence and awareness that were at work."

Yes.

"Practicing martial arts is only one way of achieving that state, and those goals."

Yes.

"How you got it is less important, imo, than that you have it. Some buy .45s"

I would agree.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

[Esteban]

Hi,

I think both sides have a point too. It's just that my point didn't really have much to do with Mind Boxer's point.

[E]Well, as I took it, his pertinent point was that having done tournaments "could" help one in a "real" fight. You seem to favor "two-man" sets, but, if I read correctly, you have done tournaments. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But, I'm sure you've done other things, anyway: pushups or meditation, for example. I think you see what I was getting at. I didn't think either of you was "wrong."

>My point was simply that one could attain >bravery through the confidence attained from two->man drills. If this is irrelevant to you I'm >sorry you wasted your time reading it.

Your point was not irrelevant to me in the way you seem to take it. If someone gives a premise "if x" and comes to the conclusion "then y," someone else can note that it is possible to have "y" without "x." If I'd said, "there's more than one way to skin a cat," it would have amounted to the same thing. And, well, obviously I thought it was worth my time to say.

[E] "BTW, how could two-man sets actually prepare one for having a particular attitude (and non-action) any more than doing a tournament?"

>You can't drill quickly maiming and killing a >man in a tournament but you can do it all day >long in a two-man drill.

Well, a boxer's punch is considered a lethal weapon, but that aside, I think that "training to kill" and "killing" are two completely separate things. This is where I think these arguments go into fantasy land. The intention to train to kill is different from the intention to kill. When the latter is present, the former is just a detail. Anybody can learn to kill anybody in a few easy lessons, or without any lessons. A friend of mine went into fit when they took her nail clippers, but allowed everyone to keep their pencils. Anyway, imo, following the argument that "tournaments" are bad for fighting, would seem to lead to the conclusion that tournament fighters (or Cung Le or Mike Tyson) would have some sort of disability in a "real" fight. While I'd agree that a certain type of personality is more likely to invite confrontation, and that tournaments don't always foster "calmness," I'm not ready to come to the conclusion that they are negative in and of themselves. Nothing personal.

Respects,
Esteban

[toddbringewatt]

I understand you, Eseban and your post is well taken.

As to the killing business. Of course training and doing are different.

Training to fly in a simulator is not flying but it sure helps a whole heck of a lot. That's all I'm saying.

By analogy, training to kill and maim IS possible and it IS effective. It happens and it works in many, many cases, i.e. the military, etc.

Again, you really aren't training to maim and kill when you are tournament fighting. You just aren't, regardless of what a boxer's punch is considered to be.

Anyway, this all started out as a comment about bravery and that I got more out of my two-man drills for reasons listed above than I did out of tournament fighting.

You can train for reality or you can train for tournaments and certainly tournaments can greatly improve fighting ability. But if you're training for reality then you are going to have to train for reality. And that includes a need to go way beyond the tournament approach to fighting.

So I'm making a point about bravery and I'm making a point about what one is really training to do after all and the potential limitations of relying on tournament fighting only to prepare you for actual combat. That's all.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"