Baji & Xingyi

[blackmantis]

I've heard the two following views...


1. Xingyi's Beng Chuan is the most powerful punch in Chinese martial arts (B.K.Frantzis)

2. Baji's punch is the most powerful punch in Chinese martial arts (some other person probably)


I practise Xingyi and so can vouch for the power of Beng Chuan, but how does a Baji player's punch differ in power and quality to a Beng Chuan? Does anyone here practise both styles? Internally are these styles sort of similar? Any thoughts or comments at all?

Many thanks,

S

[msg]

i have been practiceing hsing.i from the honan province .i think there is not any punch stronger than the other it would be on how each person trains and how much that person would train on a certan punch ,if it would be pi.chuan..tsuan.chuan...peng.chuan...poa.chuan..he ng.chuan.

[samson818]

Depends on the size and skill of the practitioner.
Everyone will have a different perspective on what style has the most oomph.

Both style ares capable of producing alot of raw power, but if I had to choose one it would be Baji.

[qiphlow]

rlittlejohn: visited your site, saw your photo, and remembered that we pushed at the '06 berkely tournament-- you & i were going for 3rd/4th in heavyweight--you won the match, but i have to say that our match was the most fun of the day--felt like real push hands! welcome to the forum!
--jeff

[SPJ]

some would say Zhong Quan in tong bei is more powerful.

altho both xing yi and ba ji have the forward thrust movement of the whole body or qian chong jing as if using a long spear.

xing yi still starts and ends with San Ti posture which is compact and shielding the vitals.

on the other hand, ba ji uses mostly horse riding stance or ma bu, there is big opening and closing or da kai da he.

--

:)

[samson818]

I think the excessive stomping, chansijing, and bodyweight drop (sinking) in Baji makes its punch 10 times more powerful than Xingyi.

Wait, I think Xingyi has this also. :eek:

But does Xingyi have elbows??? ;)

[msg]

yep hsing.i has that that to and elbows but they are both very explosive arts

[blackmantis]

Thanks people, all nice ideas!!

I'm sorry, I don't know ANYTHING about Zhong Quan in Tongbei, or in fact Tongbei at all. Is it a Shaolin system? I'm really keen to learn - could someone tell me what Tongbei's all about!! Thanks,

Of course there is no answer to this post, but I was just wondering if the power generation method is different. My very basic understanding is that both systems rely on 6 harmonies, but Xingyi uses extending and retracting qi that effects the liver. Baji on the other hand focuses on the transfer of weight in order to put maximum power into a certain point. Please feel free to correct ANY of this as I'm not very knowledgable!

P.s. Does this mean that heavy people have a more powerful Baji punch??

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

S

[CFT]

P.s. Does this mean that heavy people have a more powerful Baji punch??All things being equal, a heavier person would have a more powerful <anything> punch.

[imperialtaichi]

All things being equal, a heavier person would have a more powerful <anything> punch.

My fomula:

Total Punching Power =
External Strength (muscle size, body mass etc) x
Internal Strength (if there is such thing) x
Techniques (including body coordinations and musculoskeletal alignment)

:)

Cheers,
John

[SPJ]

some theories;

1. tong bei meaning using your back as extension or part of your arm. there is a saying "one inch longer one inch stronger".

there is Zuan quan. which you open the palm and close it as a fist right before contact. you move a step forward. you lean your back forward and relax or arch the rear leg and suddenly extended. so body moving forward + back leaning forward + final booster/turbo charged from the leg and closing fist. your whole body is the arm from the leg to the fist.

--

2. Ba Ji using the horse stance. there is a final heel up, turn and land or Nian Zhen. this is the turbo charge.

3. Xing Yi some would spiral the fist right before contact.

so which is more powerful, if body mass and everything else is the same.

--

:)

[samson818]

"one inch longer one inch stronger" - Sounds like Choy Lay Fut as well...

I think CLF and Tong bei appear similar due to their long, whippy, swinging strikes generated by their waist. I'm sure there are differences though...
Check out youtube for Tongbei clips.

I believe the aim of Baji is to develop that special shock power, or explosive power at the moment of impact.
Power basically exploding in all 8 directions.
There is an externally hard appearance/feel to this.

I like your equation for punching power, imperialtaichi.

[SPJ]

more theories:

6 harmonies are widely used across the styles.

1. Tai Chi, the elbow and the knee, the arm and the leg etc in harmony or aligned. it is how you yield, balance, produce Chan Si and Peng jing/power. etc

2. Ba Ji. you may elbow and knee strikes at the same time, fist punch and low kick at the same time, shoulder and hip Kao at the same time--

attack at 3 levels at the same time or San Pan Lian Ji etc

--


:)

[RAF]

One other additional comment is that baji, at higher levels, the horse stance used in postures changes to a stance we call half horse/half bow. You find this in liu da kai usually the other forms except for xiao baji jia. In xiao baji jia the horse stance is always employed.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Gqds4qRCM

a cool clip from vegas.

:)

[qiphlow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Gqds4qRCM

a cool clip from vegas.

:)

nice one!!!

[Ray Pina]

Hsing-I's cannon fist is extremely powerful but I wouldn't say it's the most powerful punch... I would say, "punching that way is the most powerful way to punch."

Driving off the foot, arms held in tight and taking that power and sending it from thrusting off the back leg (like a speed skater), adding hip and waist, upper back, shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger (last two for speed and bite) is very, very strong.

Good boxers do the same thing when they are grounded and throw a heavy uppercut. Or a good hook uses the same mechanics, just the relationship or shape is different.

All punching should be based on this formula, but for reasons outside of one's control... usually time to hit an opening or one's position ... perhaps you have to up-root yourself for a moment to hit your target .... or sink and not drive.... then you use more hip/waist then driving off the foot, etc.

The ideal and what can be achieved are not always the same. Though you train to have all parts doing their job.

[msg]

size does not mean you would have a stronger punch its a proven fact

[samson818]

Skill being equal, size and weight does make a difference.
Many times size and weight without skill make a formidable blow.
Everything must follow certain laws of nature, even martial arts.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3doyXlLkPo&NR

Dan Da: one man part of 2 man drill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42pM7uTxUKc&mode=related&search=

Dui Lian: 2 man drill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPZ1jKc3seI&mode=related&search=

clips from Meng Chun in celebration of Wu Xiu Feng birthday.

:)

[Three Harmonies]

Ray has a good point or two.
Msg-
You must be new to the martial arts. All things being equal, the bigger, stronger fighter will win. Physics boy, physics. That is the "proof."
I have studied both Baji and Xing Yi, and in the end all this coversation is accomplishing is a lot of mental masturbation. Their is no ONE style with the single most powerful anything, or we would all be training that ONE style. Training is what seperates the "girls from the boys" so to speak. Just because you train __________ (fill in the blank) does not mean you will have the strongest anything. How do you train? How were you taught? Where in your training are you? ETC. ETC.
I have met Baji guys who could not throw a decent punch if their life depended on it, same with Xing Yi.
If you all really, truly want to understand things better I suggest analyzing the principles behind the technique/style. If you understand one principle you will understand 10,000 techniques. Just because you understand 10,000 techniques does not mean you understand one principle! We are all governed by the same laws (gravity being one example), so these discussions that start with "Which style is more......." are silly to the point of craziness.

Hope that helps,
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[RAF]

Here is a very nice clip of xiao baji jia (from outside the Wu Tan circles):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfY32aGvAS8

[hinokata]

If you understand one principle you will understand 10,000 techniques. Just because you understand 10,000 techniques does not mean you understand one principle!

I know what you were going for in the above statement, but I couldn't resist nit-picking. :) I think it might be more accurate to say "just because you can execute/apply", because if you understand the technique, you understand the principle behind it. :)

[Three Harmonies]

Hey bro. I too think I know what you are getting at, but if I may.....
The main problem I see with many teachers is that they do not understand WHY something works. They may know HOW it works perfectly, inside and out. But not WHY. This is not the systems problem, this is the issue with the individual teacher. This is what differentiates a good teacher, from a good practitioner! I know many people who can apply certain techniques flawlessly, but when you ask them to break down the reasoning as to why it works, they stare at you blankly. Nothing wrong with that, we are all in different places on our own paths.
My overall point is every style has something to offer. All styles are powerful, though certain ones cater to certain things. No one style is more powerful than another, or we all would be studying that one style.
Cheers
Jake :D

[hinokata]

Hey bro. I too think I know what you are getting at, but if I may.....
The main problem I see with many teachers is that they do not understand WHY something works. They may know HOW it works perfectly, inside and out. But not WHY. This is not the systems problem, this is the issue with the individual teacher. This is what differentiates a good teacher, from a good practitioner! I know many people who can apply certain techniques flawlessly, but when you ask them to break down the reasoning as to why it works, they stare at you blankly. Nothing wrong with that, we are all in different places on our own paths.
My overall point is every style has something to offer. All styles are powerful, though certain ones cater to certain things. No one style is more powerful than another, or we all would be studying that one style.
Cheers
Jake :D

I agree with your statement and knew what you meant, I was just nit-picking. :D

[Three Harmonies]

No worries. I am glad at least one person got it ;) :D

[samson818]

I am sure geographical location has much to do with the cross pollination of many arts. It would only make sense that practitioners would learn from each other whether enemies or training brothers.

Some even surmise that Baji and Xingyi stem from similar sources.
Xingyi may be an offshoot of Baji or vice versa.
We will never know the real truth.

As long as we keep evolving, its all good to me.

[imperialtaichi]

...may know HOW it works perfectly, inside and out. But not WHY.



Well said!

A person who knows HOW can only perform one task; A person who knows WHY can derive his/her own techniques and take the art to a higher level.

Much like, a chef who can only copies recipes is no match with a chef who understands the art and can create his/her own recipes.

Just like a chef who one taste of a dish and he could reproduce it; a martial artist who understand the inner workings of the mind and body can integrate techniques into his own just by looking at or crossing hands with someone.

Cheers,
John

[samson818]

Nice to know HOW, better to know WHY.
Now if only people can actually DO.

I have met many an instructor who knows the ins, outs, how, why, etc. for any specific technique in their arsenal, but when the proverbial stuff hits the fan, they cannot deal.

Sad, but true.
Principles and threories are nice, but if you cannot apply it then it is worthless.

[imperialtaichi]

Principles and threories are nice, but if you cannot apply it then it is worthless.



Absolutely. That's why we need to train. Otherwise, the body cannot reflect what we know.

Cheers,
John

[shaolin_allan]

I believe that tongbei,baiji,and xingyi all share similarities in theories. They're all very overtly powerful offensive styles and basically when it comes down to baiji vs xingyi punch it will all be based on internal and external strength of the person punching.

[Bugeisha]

If you can't apply it, you don't really understand it. Understanding and knowledge are not the exclusive domain of the mind.