Any Christian Martial Arts Schools?

[JDK]

If you have read my latest thread on FeemonOng's Saved Formula's you knowmthat I love the Southern Sytems of the Martial Arts....but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.

Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .:D

I am a born-again believer...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.

I am NOT trying to push my beliefs down anyones throat....but If anyone knows of a School where the teacher is a born-again christian that would be the Ultimate!!!!! Even if the teacher is neutral...but is aware of the Occult Practices that go along with many Styles, and leaves them out of training....That is for me!

Thanks in advance....and I hope I didnt offend anyone

JD

[Ravenshaw]

I'll bite... I hope you can reconcile kung fu within your beliefs, as I feel they are not quite as conflicting as you think. Allow me to try to persuade you.

"Occult (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/occult)" is not the right word here. I would take some offense to that, but it's thrown around so freely by some people that I'm not surprised to see its misuse anymore. The truth is that even if kung fu were an inherently religious practice, to call Eastern religions "occult" is incorrect.

The only practices I recall from my schools were entirely non-religious. We were never taught to believe in any ancient gods or to worship spirits. We saluted each other, a gesture that has nothing to do with religion. At my first school, we also saluted the Sun Toi, to honor the memory of lineage. It's not worshiping anything supernatural, but just being mindful of them and their hardships, kind of like placing flowers on a grave. It was a salute that took about a second, then we got right to practicing.

I see nothing religious there. Most schools I've been to don't even have the Sun Toi. We salute each other and perhaps a photo of our grandteacher. Think of it like saluting the flag. I've never learned the slightest bit about religion or spiritual practice while at a kung fu school. Well, sometimes Gene would give us a mini-lecture while we sat in horse stance, and those covered a lot of topics, so he probably talked about it. His purpose was to inform us of the history, not convert us to anything. What I'm trying to say is that no one ever tried to make me into a Buddhist or forced me practice Buddhism.

I personally do not think you would compromise your religious practices by practicing a martial art unless the only schools in your area actually teach the worship of gods and spirits. I've never seen it, but I suppose it's possible. One of my teachers today is super-traditional, and we practice outside on a University campus. No trappings, just a salute and on to horse stance.

Good luck.

[JDK]

I appreciate your dialogue Ravenshaw.
It was my hope to be able to voice my opinion on this touchy topic and everyones stay civil.

Here are some pic's to look at...if you look close they are laden with religious and occult ( the word simply means "hidden") images.

http://www.fotosearch.com/results.asp?keyword=chinese+deities&category=&searchtype=sss

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/161/chinesgodsw8.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chinesgodsw8.jpg)

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2815/chinesealterte0.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chinesealterte0.jpg)



http://www.threeq.com/pages/symbols/yingyang.htm

I rest my case..

JD

[lunghushan]

Like a lot of fundamentalists (my father included) it seems like you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I've gone to karate classes where the Muslim students won't bow in to class because they think it's some sort of religious practice. (When really it's just a gesture of respect).

If you're really worried, why don't you just study from some Communist PRC teacher because they got rid of religion under Communism, so you should be safe there.

Anyways, why don't you just taking boxing or BJJ or something if you're so worried?

[CLFNole]

I have heard this from people entering our school before when asking about the alter with Kwan Gung (General Kwan). They ask do you have to bow to that? My answer is that has nothing to do with you, just come and practise kung fu.

I am catholic and I jon heung/burn incense everytime I am at class. It is only a means of paying respect to the elders and has nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with chinese culture.

My advice if your looking for kung fu suck it up and just take the classes, in most legit schools nothing will be asked of you outside of the possible salaute to your sifu or fellow classmates, which is more of a social thing like a handshake.

Otherwise, get a longsword, mace or morning star and follow a style from the ancient crusades. If you want to learn a eastern art you must be willing to at least respect some of their traditions, most of which have nothing to do with religion.

[lunghushan]

And there ARE Christian MA schools around. Like in Seattle there's a Christian Aikido school. http://www.christianaikido.org/

There's probably one in your area, and you just don't know about it.

[ironmantis3]

I have to 100% agree with lungshushan. And at the risk of starting the flame war here, I'm going to have to say that isn't it strange that while they spend so much time trying to cast down the "occult" ideals of others and claiming that they cannot find the peace they want, all the while they are the ones actually starting up the mess?

I can't count how many times I've been minding my own business practicing in my yard, a park, on the beach or wherever and then only to be interrupted by some bible thumper trying to tell me I'm the embodyment of Satan and that meditation leads to the devils influence...

By the way, throwing around the word Occult IS offensive. Know why? Because everytime another religious extremist comes out throwing it around they are using it with venom in their intent. Kinda like your little link you posted there.

By the way what do you have against paying honor to those past? So what if people honor Buddha or Guan Yu. Isn't that the same exact thing you are doing with Jesus?

Oh that link is full of it too...you want to know the light in Satan, he was once an angle...oh and about God and evil...didn't he once flood the entire planet??? Oh and didn't he sorta admit that it was just a tad wrong when he vowed to never do such an act again?

I'm not trying to bash religion, but its not exactly without its screw-ups either.

I'm not going to get into a religious battle now because its not worth my time. But seriously you are digging deep into something that you don't even have to acknowledge. But at the same time you come here claiming to be finding a path of non-involvement and neutrality in spreading you own view, you slam it straight out bashing what others here might think with such a careless link...

Hmmmm...there was a time when Christians believed in reincarnation....

There might be a lot of schools that have a dragon scroll or a statue of Guan Yu...does that mean you have to acknowledge it? No most of the time its just there for decoration anyways.

Honestly if you are that worked up about something so trivial then you might just be better off in a boxing gym. Simple truth is you aren't going to learn anything anyways if you keep trying to filter it through your stacked up screen...

Just take the lessons as they come and if you don't like something just don't do it...you will see there isn't so much conflict as you think.

By the way there is nothing "touchy" about this topic....most of us go on throughout our daily training and think nothing of it...its only a select few that come along and can't seem to make peace with their own surroundings.

I'm sorry if I have to much aggression in this post...but after being raised with native american tradition and shamanism, studying into wican and other euro based beliefs then eventually finding my way to Chinese ideals, I have been spit on, bashed and belittled just a bit too much to give much ground to the conservative mainstream religious banter that comes out in America so often...

And before anyone tries to say it, yes I do plan to live in Asia, actually I already did in Japan for 4 years and I will be going back...

My first Sifu who I respect very much was also a firm Christian. He never had any shame in his beliefs but at the same time he never once attempted to hold his to a higher pedastal than those of his students...He could see the value that was present in each's beliefs and the place it had in our own lives. Not once did he attempt to sway us in any one direction but rather presented all he could and allowed us to find our way, only directed us forward in the way that we ourselves so chose...They are out there, but you are going to have to accept that there will be differences and you must live with that. Its a small world and its only getting smaller...

[lunghushan]

Bottomline it isn't worth trying to argue about it. At least Seattle isn't in the Bible Belt. Although there is a huge Christian church right behind my house. (Which, ironically, is about 90% Asian in terms of people who go there).

Anyways, JDK, Here's the Christian MA network ... 9 schools in Ohio.

http://www.agapy.com/cma/directory.html

[lunghushan]

claiming that they cannot find the peace they want, all the while they are the ones actually starting up the mess?

Don't even get me started. My dad won't talk to me because:

a) I went over there, just to visit.
b) He starts on about the Bible and Christian banter and about how I'll go to hell if I'm not a Christian.
c) I try to pacify him by just listening for a while, but he keeps getting on me and on me, so finally I ask him what proof he has of anything in the Bible.
d) We argue a bit, and I make the case that I have no idea if any of it is true because it's just a book.
e) Now he won't talk to me. Because I 'insulted' his religion. First off, I never mentioned religion, HE mentioned it, and banged it over my head for about 45 minutes before I even responded. Then I just said that I (I, me, not him) have no proof anything in the Bible is true.

Fundies are IMHO a curse on the world.

If they would just mind their own business, who cares what they practice? At least the Asian Christians that I know are more into just doing their own thing. Maybe they've had enough persecution in China and wherever they are from, so they realize that being able to practice their religion in peace is good enough without trying to convert the entire world.

[ironmantis3]

I guess you are right Lung and I realise I probably shot my mouth...errr...fingers off in that post so I apologize.

Its just that the thing with symbolism....symbols only have meaning when given...otherwise they are just innate shapes and objects...its all in the eyes of the beholder so to say without sounding too cheesy I hope...

I just don't understand why people worry about such small issues when there are so many real issues plaguing the world right now...

Anyways good luck in your search JDK, it seems you have some places to start looking now.

[lunghushan]

I guess you are right Lung and I realise I probably shot my mouth...errr...fingers off in that post so I apologize.

Its just that the thing with symbolism....symbols only have meaning when given...otherwise they are just innate shapes and objects...its all in the eyes of the beholder so to say without sounding too cheesy I hope...

I just don't understand why people worry about such small issues when there are so many real issues plaguing the world right now...

Anyways good luck in your search JDK, it seems you have some places to start looking now.

People can't worry about the big issues, I guess, because they're too big.

Anyways, like I always told my mom, if she really believed in Christianity, and if she were firm in her faith, then what does she care if anybody else believes or not?

If you are a firm Christian (and this is 12 years of Sunday School talking), you should be able to walk through the valley of the shadows of death and FEAR NO EVIL. You should be able to get your Black Sash without worrying about the General Kwan statue.

Anyways, I was extremely religiously persecuted by my family since I was around 13 or so and decided not to get confirmed. If it wasn't for my grandparents stepping in it would have been a hard time.

If there's one thing I can't stand it's religious persecution. And the people that are doing the persecuting are usually religious people.

[YiLiQuan1]

...but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.

Then study someplace else. A boxing or wrestling gym comes immediately to mind... :rolleyes:


Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .:D

That's where the hidden venom of a convert starts seeping through... "Disguised 'worship' of spirits?" Please. :rolleyes: That's the kind of evangelical, pseudo-superiority complex that so many people with your religious orientation use to put people off.


I am a born-again believer

Goodie for you. I doubt anyone cares as much as you do about that...


...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.

The choice of phrasing, the choice of wording, all points to your intolerance, all while you demand tolerance of your own beliefs. Typical dual values... :rolleyes:


I am NOT trying to push my beliefs down anyones throat

No, you are, in a passive-aggressive way. You want to study a fighting art of Chinese origin, complete with the religious influences that Chinese history has contributed, but you want it all on your terms, as if you have a right to make that demand... Take it for what it is, complete with all the "extras," or find something else.


....but If anyone knows of a School where the teacher is a born-again christian that would be the Ultimate!!!!! Even if the teacher is neutral...but is aware of the Occult Practices that go along with many Styles, and leaves them out of training....That is for me!

They aren't "occult." The term certainly does mean "hidden," but the word communicates far more than that simplistic definition. And you know that. It's akin to referring to all non-Christians as "pagans."

You can't just pick and choose, no matter what you may think... It's like picking and choosing what parts of your religion you want to obey (e.g. Christian prohibition against eating pork, compelling regular fasting, etc., which are common tidbits that modern American Christians "explain away" as if they no longer apply because they are inconvenient...). Either do it, or do something else. :mad: Don't water down the cultural and historical heritage of something in order to contaminate it with your religious perspective.

Otherwise, good luck. ;)

[YiLiQuan1]

Fundies are IMHO a curse on the world.

"Fundies" rhymes with "undies" and we all know what they're both full of, don't we?

:D

[ironmantis3]

Sorry if I offended anyone...ut pleae remember my signature line..


Its not WHOSE right....Its WHAT is right!

Yeah lung kinda like this right here....

Man I don't get how anyone in their right mind can honestly think that they have the ultimate undeniable truth...why can't people just realise that they have no idea what is going on and as much as they might want something to be, it is just a belief until the day we die and know for certain...

It in truth has nothing to do with WHAT is right....WHAT is a matter of personal perspective and there isn't a soul on this planet that has right to say who's WHAT is right and who's WHAT is wrong...that is just delusional...

[lunghushan]

Yeah lung kinda like this right here....

Man I don't get how anyone in their right mind can honestly think that they have the ultimate undeniable truth...why can't people just realise that they have no idea what is going on and as much as they might want something to be, it is just a belief until the day we die and know for certain...

It in truth has nothing to do with WHAT is right....WHAT is a matter of personal perspective and there isn't a soul on this planet that has right to say who's WHAT is right and who's WHAT is wrong...that is just delusional...

Yeah, honestly, all I ever wanted to do with my dad was talk about the Bible. Theology and symbolism and stuff. He never wanted to do it, and that really turned me off to the entire thing because it was like he was just a zombie.

So I kindof didn't deal with my dad and that for a while, but as he gets older, he is just getting WAY more religious, so I wanted to bounce a few ideas off of him about symbology and stuff, but he really wouldn't have it.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Christians, or any religion, unless they're trying to ram their religion down other people's throats. But what I really don't understand, is HOW they are SO SURE that what they believe is correct? That is what I don't understand.

I mean, my dad is like so sure that there's no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, but he won't look at a particular part of the Bible (take any part), and look at the symbology or anything.

Very strange. But anyways, there's a LOT of Christians in the U.S. and many Christian MA schools, so for those people interested, there are options.

[YiLiQuan1]

Yeah lung kinda like this right here....

I missed that bit entirely as I was shaking my head so hard in disbelief about what this guy was asking...


Man I don't get how anyone in their right mind can honestly think that they have the ultimate undeniable truth...

Because they lack something in their life so profoundly that they absorb some claptrap foreign religion in order to elevate themselves to a position of higher morality and ethics (which, as recent events have displayed over and over, are a complete and utter load...). This automatically lowers everyone else, and provides complete surety that the positions will never be reversed (since nonbelievers are automatically condemned to an eternity of suffering, though the ignorant faithful are guaranteed to go to Heaven after they die - but doesn't the Book say something about sleeping until the Second Coming? Nothing in there about a direct flight to the Pearly Gates...).


why can't people just realise that they have no idea what is going on and as much as they might want something to be, it is just a belief until the day we die and know for certain...

Again, some people are so weak-minded that they cling to their religion to give their empty lives meaning... Death in the family? How do you justify that? Easy! Accept Jaah-EEE-zuss-ah! The mystery of God's plan explains the unexplainable, doesn't it?


It in truth has nothing to do with WHAT is right....WHAT is a matter of personal perspective and there isn't a soul on this planet that has right to say who's WHAT is right and who's WHAT is wrong...that is just delusional...

Right and wrong are one thing. They are, to a great degree, universal throughout the human species. It's when we anthropomorphize Deity that we start getting in trouble...

A bunch of Middle Eastern guys really dig this one dude that says some pretty cool things, some politically charged, some religiously inspiring. Fine. The message spreads around the area. Still fine. Two millennia later, after endless discussion, debate, political in-fighting, discontent, inability to agree on what singular, out-of-context passages really mean, inability of history to support events described, people are still shocked when literate, competent, modern people don't jump on the Faith Wagon...

The saying "Religion is the opiate of the masses" has never rung so true... :rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

"Fundies" rhymes with "undies" and we all know what they're both full of, don't we?

:D

As long as they're not chasing me, I don't mind. I think that's the entire point of the separation of church and state is that people don't try to enforce their religion upon others.

The thing that fundies don't seem to get is that it could go the opposite way, and then they wouldn't like it. They wouldn't like somebody else forcing their religion upon them, so why do they want to enforce their religion upon others? As it says in the Bible, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[YiLiQuan1]

As long as they're not chasing me, I don't mind. I think that's the entire point of the separation of church and state is that people don't try to enforce their religion upon others.

Well, truthfully, the US was never intended to be tolerant of all religions... Freedom of religion was for the Colonists/New Americans to practice their religion, which was in conflict with the Church of England's teachings (one of the reasons the "Pilgrims" got the job to come over here and colonize in the first place; the King got colonists and got rid of religious kooks...)


The thing that fundies don't seem to get is that it could go the opposite way, and then they wouldn't like it. They wouldn't like somebody else forcing their religion upon them, so why do they want to enforce their religion upon others?

You betcha... Step on their religious freedoms and SHAZAM! they're freaking out and taking you to court. Take away the religious freedoms from any other group, then they're astoundingly silent...


As it says in the Bible, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Does the Book actually say that? I thought that was a Ben Franklin-ism.

[lunghushan]

Because they lack something in their life so profoundly that they absorb some claptrap foreign religion in order to elevate themselves to a position of higher morality and ethics (which, as recent events have displayed over and over, are a complete and utter load...).
...

The saying "Religion is the opiate of the masses" has never rung so true... :rolleyes:

I dunno ... what is it that is in people that most of them will believe something written in a book, without any proof, without any question, without a second thought?

It must be some sort of genetic, inbred socialization mechanism, because they do the same thing with science. If somebody is peer reviewed and has a PhD after their name, most people will believe them without even reading the paper, without any proof, without any question, and without a second thought.

In a way, the entire mechanism of society runs the same way. People seem to trust or believe in certain figures of authority, whether or not those people really are trustworthy, because those people are in authority, and other people look up to them.

Just as with celebrities, because those people are on the big screen, people seem to give them laud and authority that they don't really deserve, just because they are playing a part on a screen.

[lunghushan]

Well, truthfully, the US was never intended to be tolerant of all religions... Freedom of religion was for the Colonists/New Americans to practice their religion, which was in conflict with the Church of England's teachings (one of the reasons the "Pilgrims" got the job to come over here and colonize in the first place; the King got colonists and got rid of religious kooks...)


Well, it was you are free for your Protestant offshoot sect of the month, I guess. (I'm not sure how many Anglicans or Catholics there were ... Irish Catholics were persecuted a lot when they came over supposedly).


Does the Book actually say that? I thought that was a Ben Franklin-ism.

Yep, Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7:12, "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them."

[lunghushan]

What I would hypothesize is that this accepting of things without questioning is actually a form of cretinism, and a lack of higher brain function.

If you consider that as humans mature, they go through various fetal stages, conforming to various animal stages, and if you study the brains of humans, you will see that they have the same lower brain functions as other 'lower' mammals and reptiles.

But where they differ according to studies is in the higher order brain functions.

So if you consider that the brain has a problem developing without the right nutrition, especially the right amino acids and iodine, and this can cause a type of cretinism to develop, it is logical to assume there are various levels of cretinism.

Some forms of cretinism probably only affect the highest order brain functions of logic and reasoning, whereas the more severe forms of cretinism can cause the person to take on more traits of an animalistic nature with severe learning and behavior deficiencies.

So these lower order forms of cretinism probably would cause people to develop in a way much closer to their primate counterparts than actual humans in terms of their logic and reasoning skills.

So if you consider that many places in the world have a low nutrition, and especially those places that use cows milk for infants and children which has the wrong type of amino acids for brain development, it would stand to reason that these places would have higher levels of cretinism than other populations.

In fact, in the Hebrew Bible, it talks about using goats milk, and scientists have found that goats milk is closer to human milk in amino acid composition.

So it would probably not be too much of a stretch to assume that the U.S., having a high degree of factory farming, low micronutrient levels in the soil due to a high use of PNK fertilizers which leach minerals from the soil, and a high use of cows milk in children and mothers feeding children, would have a high rate of low level cretinism.

Or in other words, a lot of people in the U.S. probably don't have use of their higher order logic and reasoning functions, and have a high level of learning disabilities. Which could explain the fact that they accept many things in ancient books without question.

[k-no]

Dude, if you're gonna be that anal about it why even practice a MARTIAL art? Wasn't it Jesus who advocated "turning the other cheek"? I'm always confused at ya'll picking and choosing what you want to follow from the Bible and ignoring the rest. The fact that you're even indulging in training in an art designed to hurt other people goes against Christian ideals.

I guess if I go to the military cemetery and salute a hero's gravestone, I'm an "occultist". :rolleyes:

k

[Ravenshaw]

Okay, I think everyone is getting a little too hard on the OP. Religion's a touchy subject, so let's try to keep the flames low.

JDK, the symbols you linked to aren't "occult." To be frank, "occult" is a pejorative that some Christian groups (Chiristian Coalition comes to mind) to put down and literally demonize other practices. There isn't much that's "hidden" or "secret" about the statues or images you linked. Information is widely available and considering how many Chinese know about them, they couldn't possibly be "hidden." They are not objectively any more occult than crosses or Christian images.

I neither put down nor promote any religion in this post, I'm just trying to foster some tolerance.

The meaning of the Yin and Yang as it pertains to the martial arts is entirely separate from the explanation you linked. A single symbol can be used to different ends, and this is historically demonstrable. The swastika is the clearest example.

JDK, I really do respect your religion, and I haven't knocked it here once. I just don't think there's a conflict. And if you simply can't get over some of the trappings of Chinese culture, I'm sure you'll find a school that does not pay much attention to such things, as some of my teachers don't.

Like I said before, good luck. And, everyone, please don't vent your frustrations on this one guy.

[lunghushan]

Okay, I think everyone is getting a little too hard on the OP. Religion's a touchy subject, so let's try to keep the flames low.

...

Like I said before, good luck. And, everyone, please don't vent your frustrations on this one guy.

That's a good point. If there's one thing I don't like it's religious persecution.

There's plenty of Christian MA schools out there if that's your thing, JKD, you just gotta widen your search radius, I guess. You might even ask around your church if there's any MA practitioners.

But please keep in mind that when Jesus traveled around, he preached to Jews, Samaritans and Romans alike. He didn't judge them because they were Jewish or because they were Christian. (Christianity wasn't exactly a religion then).

Just because they worship 'idols' in your view doesn't mean you can't live amongst the Philistines. By judging others by their practices is pretty un-Christian. You might want to read up on Jesus time amongst the Samaritans what he said about that.

If you read the Bible, Jesus message if anything is one of tolerance. As Jesus said, "Let him who has not sinned throw the first stone."

[golden arhat]

you cant worship buddha or any other bodhisattva because they are not gods merely (not the right word) enlightened
most of the "gods" are ancestors or venerated heroes e.g. gwan gung
you follow their example and lay incense at a shrine its different
second whats your beef with buddhism ?
seriously all you baptist morons are whats wrong with the world today

[Fu-Pow]

I don't see much conflict between Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism (the predominant "religions" of China) and Christianity. The reason being that eastern "religions" are not really "religions" in the sense of abrahamic religions (ie judaism, christianity or islam.) Confucianism is more of a philosophy. Taoism and Buddhism are more like philosophies that have associated psychological practices (ie meditation.)

The other thing is that elements of these religions are so ingrained into the Chinese culture that it is hard to seperate out what is "religious" and what is "Chinese." For example, my Chinese friend's father just died. They are a Catholic family and yet they still followed many Buddhist traditions not because they are buddhists but because they are Chinese.

Its the same with kung fu. You will often see Sifu's doing things that might seem vaguely buddhist/taoist/confucian but they are doing so out of a respect for tradition rather than because they are showing some kind of religious devotion.

So if you want to practice kung fu with a Sifu who respects tradition then you're going to have to play by his rules and respect tradition. And most Sifu's do respect tradition, even if they hold other religious beliefs.

So you might be better off to look to western arts because they didn't arise in a culture steeped in "occult" religions.

Regards,

FP

[JDK]

Bottomline it isn't worth trying to argue about it. At least Seattle isn't in the Bible Belt. Although there is a huge Christian church right behind my house. (Which, ironically, is about 90% Asian in terms of people who go there).

Anyways, JDK, Here's the Christian MA network ... 9 schools in Ohio.

http://www.agapy.com/cma/directory.html


Thank you very much lunghushan ,,,that was thoughtful of you to take the time to look that up. There IS a School close to me that I will try nd visit this week.

Thanks aagain..and sorry to everyone I offended

JD

[Ben Gash]

Dude, if you're gonna be that anal about it why even practice a MARTIAL art? Wasn't it Jesus who advocated "turning the other cheek"? I'm always confused at ya'll picking and choosing what you want to follow from the Bible and ignoring the rest. The fact that you're even indulging in training in an art designed to hurt other people goes against Christian ideals.

I guess if I go to the military cemetery and salute a hero's gravestone, I'm an "occultist". :rolleyes:

k

Not wishing to start a lengthy debate, this is typical non-contextual literalism, of the kind that extremists are usually criticised for :rolleyes:
Pacifism is not a tenet of Christianity, and more importantly the sermon on the mount is NOT about how to lead your daily lives. It is in fact a discourse on the dangers of non-contextual literalism :rolleyes: It is about the abuses of Jewish law by the Pharisees, which were leading Israel away from God under the guise of following His commands. The message of the sermon on the mount is that the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of it. The turning the other cheek verse is not about violence, it's about justice and mercy. Christians are not called upon to be passive, they are called to be merciful as God has been merciful to them.
Indeed, one of the core principles of Christianity is that Jesus was without sin. Therefore nothing that Jesus did could be sinful, and we know that Jesus engaged in an act of violence (John chapter 2).
ANYWAY, the original post. I'm an orthodox evangelical, and I will say that there are 2 problems. The first is the one very eloquently put by FuPow in probably the most intelligent post here. Chinese culture is fundamentally alien to us, and much of it seems strange and inexplicable, which makes it hard to exercise discernment.
The Yin Yang article you posted is typical of the problem. Because it bears all the hallmarks of a mystical symbol, many people assume it must be. To further complicate matters various mystics and spiritual philosophies draw on the Yin and Yang (or the Taiji as it's more properly called) for inspiration. The article highlights the real problem though, which is that a load of flakey new agers have hijacked it and made up a mythology around it :mad: This then becomes what people believe about it and Christians then make decisions based on falsehoods :(
The Taiji symbol is really just an illustration of the Chinese view of how the world works, and if you speak to any Physicist they'll tell you that in fact on many levels that IS how the world works. You're utilising the power of Yin and Yang whenever you turn on a lightswitch.
So why does some of this stuff seem wrong? A further complication is that you have to look at your Christian worldview and discern how much of it is Christian and how much of it is Roman? Christianity spread through the Roman empire, and the Roman empire flourished for so long because they were good at adapting, so the Roman way of life came to be the Christian way of life and vice versa. Naturalistic philosophies such as those you see in China came to be frowned upon as relics of our pagan past, and this attitude pervades to this day.
The second problem is that some clubs are downright flakey!!! You need to exercise discernment, but then you need to exercise discernment in all things. I could name several churches in my not too large town that I think you should be wary of, so why should a kung fu club be any different. New agers have hijacked chinese martial arts and done untold harm :mad: However at the same time many teachers are strict Buddhists and will talk about Buddhism because it's important to them. Go to a school, check it out, and TALK frankly and respectfully with the teacher who should be more than happy to discuss any concerns with you.
Remember, it's very difficult to sin passively.

[Fu-Pow]

The Yin Yang article you posted is typical of the problem. Because it bears all the hallmarks of a mystical symbol, many people assume it must be. To further complicate matters various mystics and spiritual philosophies draw on the Yin and Yang (or the Taiji as it's more properly called) for inspiration. The article highlights the real problem though, which is that a load of flakey new agers have hijacked it and made up a mythology around it :mad: This then becomes what people believe about it and Christians then make decisions based on falsehoods :(
The Taiji symbol is really just an illustration of the Chinese view of how the world works, and if you speak to any Physicist they'll tell you that in fact on many levels that IS how the world works. You're utilising the power of Yin and Yang whenever you turn on a lightswitch.

Yes, exactly. Taoism is more of a naturalistic philosophy than anything else. However, it also has what, from a scientific view, might be called somato-psychological practices associated with it. It seems that ignorant Christians want to categorize it as a religion but again, its not a religion in the abrahamic sense. It seems there is a fundamenta lack of understanding about eastern religions. Mostly I think because Christians have been tought that if they even learn about other religions and beliefs they will become tainted somehow. To me that just seems like a way to keep your followers in the fold, because they might find something they like better along the way.

To qualify what I posted earlier, there are sects of buddhism that have whole pantheons of gods. Those tend to be in the Mahayana sect of buddhism. In this way they are more like a religion. There are also local superstitions and "occult" practices that have melded with buddhism in certain areas. So its not completely black and white.




However at the same time many teachers are strict Buddhists and will talk about Buddhism because it's important to them. Go to a school, check it out, and TALK frankly and respectfully with the teacher who should be more than happy to discuss any concerns with you.
Remember, it's very difficult to sin passively.

That's a good point. If this fellow should avoid these types of schools with buddhist teachers. But I doubt that he will find a traditional school that eschews all Chinese traditions and by default cultural overtones.

Good luck!

FP

[lunghushan]

ANYWAY, the original post. I'm an orthodox evangelical, and I will say that there are 2 problems. The first is the one very eloquently put by FuPow in probably the most intelligent post here. Chinese culture is fundamentally alien to us, and much of it seems strange and inexplicable, which makes it hard to exercise discernment.


I won't go into the rest of your post, but this bit is just ??? Chinese culture is alien??? What planet do you live on? Is Chinese culture really alien to you? You never hung out with Chinese people, studied CMA, ate Chinese food, drank Chinese beer, read translations of Chinese books or anything???

Maybe it's just living in the U.S., but I have a hard time thinking of any culture that is 'alien'. Perhaps Senegal or something -- yes, I don't think I ever met somebody from Senegal.

Maybe you never took a comparative religion class?

I guess I never realized there were still people in the world who didn't look outside their little box. I thought my dad was the only one.

[Ben Gash]

Get of your soapbox a minute there. Chinese culture is by definition alien in that it is not mine and does not have an overlap with my own heritage. If you think that studying CMA and eating Chinese food gives you some deep insight into Chinese culture then you are deluded. I am not living inside my own little box, and yes I did take comparitive religion classes (but I majored in Islam). I did not say that Chinese culture was inferior, wrong or anything else, so why this unprompted mudslinging?
What I said was that Chinese Culture is fundamentally different from Northern European/American culture and as such it is difficult to draw meaningful parralels between them, and it is virtually impossible to understand specific aspects of Chinese culture by observing them in isolation through the filter of a Western upbringing with Western ideas. What exactly is wong, inaccurate, close minded or racist about that statement? If I showed you an unsoldered piece of circuit board would you be able to appreciate what it did if you didn't have a detailed understanding of computers?

[lunghushan]

Get of your soapbox a minute there. Chinese culture is by definition alien in that it is not mine and does not have an overlap with my own heritage. If you think that studying CMA and eating Chinese food gives you some deep insight into Chinese culture then you are deluded. I am not living inside my own little box, and yes I did take comparitive religion classes (but I majored in Islam). I did not say that Chinese culture was inferior, wrong or anything else, so why this unprompted mudslinging?
What I said was that Chinese Culture is fundamentally different from Northern European/American culture and as such it is difficult to draw meaningful parralels between them, and it is virtually impossible to understand specific aspects of Chinese culture by observing them in isolation through the filter of a Western upbringing with Western ideas. What exactly is wong, inaccurate, close minded or racist about that statement? If I showed you an unsoldered piece of circuit board would you be able to appreciate what it did if you didn't have a detailed understanding of computers?

An unsoldered piece of circuit board isn't going to do anything without some components on it. I'm not saying you're racist or anything or even on a soapbox.

I just don't understand people who are saying these cultures are so alien, but maybe it's just because I didn't grow up in the Midwest or somewhere that there were only white people. Or maybe because I grew up with a sifu who was Chinese -- I have no idea.

In fact, I think that modern Chinese from the PRC are kindof clueless as to Chinese culture. Definitely by their cooking, they have no idea what decent Chinese food is.

[mantis108]

I think Fu-Pow and Ben Gash gave pretty on the level replies.

About some problems of the article:

In the "spirit" of Colbert Report's segment "the Word"

Yin Yang

1) God is Unchanged

translation: fundamentalists' ideology of ultra-conservatisim dressed in a pseudo- theological statement. :cool:

2) Reincarnation is non sense

translation: I refused to believe that I might have a soul that is indestructable and as long as "IT" exists "I" have little to no control of what "IT" can eventually attached onto. In other words, I am as divine as my brother Jesus and perphas even my Father. Why do I need a prophet or a priest for that matter to tell me that is not so? :eek:

3) Sex is sinful

translation: Procreation is God's (male gender) business. There is no equal partnership in that business. Recreational use of sex is out of the question (unless of course HE sanctions ploygamy) ;)

That my friends is the word Yin Ying to the self proclaimed born again believer (don't get any funny "idea" about reincarnation right?)

Mantis108

PS Ben Gash, what would your view be about the sermon of 5 cakes and 2 fish? I am just curious, thanks.

[CLFNole]

If you live with chinese people long enough you will begin to realize that we are not as different as you might think. I am from Italian hertiage and there is a lot of commonalities with chinese culture in terms of family and other areas. The fundamentals are not that different and there are differences as from any heritage to another.

The whole religion thing will always bring out people who are extreme in their beliefs. This whole thread is just wrong to begin with as kung fu and religion should not really be mixed. Respecting elders and respecting tradition does not translate into changing someone's religious beliefs.

[qiphlow]

god never went to church

[MonkeyKingUSA]

If you have read my latest thread on FeemonOng's Saved Formula's you knowmthat I love the Southern Sytems of the Martial Arts....but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.

Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .:D

I am a born-again believer...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.

I am NOT trying to push my beliefs down anyones throat....but If anyone knows of a School where the teacher is a born-again christian that would be the Ultimate!!!!! Even if the teacher is neutral...but is aware of the Occult Practices that go along with many Styles, and leaves them out of training....That is for me!

Thanks in advance....and I hope I didnt offend anyone

JD

Is being a born-again Christian and an Ordained Christian Minister enough? If so, stop on by.

[Samurai Jack]

Why not learn from the man HIMSELF? (http://www.jesusoftheweek.com/jesii/366/index.html)

[golden arhat]

An unsoldered piece of circuit board isn't going to do anything without some components on it. I'm not saying you're racist or anything or even on a soapbox.

I just don't understand people who are saying these cultures are so alien, but maybe it's just because I didn't grow up in the Midwest or somewhere that there were only white people. Or maybe because I grew up with a sifu who was Chinese -- I have no idea.

.

ben lives in swinton quite a big town actually

[Old Tiger]

People say that Christians are intolerants, and someone even said it here. JDK ask for a simple request for some Christian MA schools and he even stated that he is not pushing his beliefs onto people, but there sure was a lot of bashing on Christianity on this thread. So where is your 'tolerants' for JDK or other Christian belief? I do understand that some of the things said about fundamentalists, fundies or whatever, are the fault of the fundamentalists themselves, but that is another discussion that I won't get into now.

As for some of the things in chinese culture, some of the rituals are religious and some are not. Jon Heung / burning incense can be view as paying respect to ancestors but can also view as religious where the person call upon their ancestor spirits to bring on good luck or to help out on some requests. Burning incense to Kwan Gung and other deities definitely takes on religious meaning. The Yin/Yang symbol and many of Buddhist teachings don't take on religious meaning, but some Buddhist meaning do. Buddhist wants to reach a point of nirvana (or whatever the word is) where they can reach a point of immortal, instead of being reincarnated as a person or some animals depending upon the deeds they have done while they are here on earth. Some of the symbols that JDK shown are chinese deities which people pray to for help.

As a Chrisitan and chinese, I myself is mindful of what I will or will not do to violate my Christian beliefs. I will bow at the graves of my ancestors to show proper respect. However, I will not burn incense in front of Kwan Gung or any other dieties. I take MA because I feel it as a way to improve health first and foremost, and for self-defense secondary. There is nowhere in the Bible that say you cannot defend yourself. And as someone correctly pointed out, Jesus saying turning one's cheek does not mean just go and let someone beat you senseless.

JDK, my advice to you is that if your conscience bothers you, then go find another place. But when entering a gray area, you can use apostle Paul's advice about food offered to idol in 1 Cor. 8 as a guideline. However, don't use 1 Cor. 8 as an execuse to cover up your conscience. The main point is what is your conscience telling you and just follow your conscience.

[lunghushan]

People say that Christians are intolerants, and someone even said it here. JDK ask for a simple request for some Christian MA schools and he even stated that he is not pushing his beliefs onto people, but there sure was a lot of bashing on Christianity on this thread. So where is your 'tolerants' for JDK or other Christian belief?

I guess as somebody who was raised Christian, and then took martial arts from a Chinese sifu, I was trying to make the point for this person to have some open-ness in his thinking, and perhaps explore and not worry so much about it.

When I first asked my parents to take martial arts, they freaked out and said it was evil and anti-Christian or whatever. Eventually I just went without telling them to somebody who taught out of his garage, and there was nothing evil or anti-Christian about it.

Yes the sifu was Chinese and yes, he had statues of Buddha in his HOUSE, and yes he did burn incense sometimes in the garage to get rid of the sweaty SMELL ... lol

Last I checked Catholics had something called a censer and they burn incense in mass.

That is all. Why not be more open and tolerant in your thinking? Why judge others as being evil? That is all.

I should add that there is one school that I quit because they tried to teach martial arts along with some sort of Buddhism, and that was New York Budo. I think that martial arts should be agnostic and I think you will find that most martial arts places do not mix religion with martial arts.

[Shaolinlueb]

ok i hate these arguements. if you are really a "christian" you know god is all knowing. he knows that you are bowing for respect, burning insence out of respect. he knows you're not worshiping these gods. he knows you still love him.

so jsut go train. bow as a sign of respect. nothing wrong with learning other cultures. i never had my sifu or other classmates to worship this or study that. sure i read buddhist texts but jesus preached a lot of the same stuff. religion is all the same, we just worship different gods. except the muslims and christians its the same god ;).

just go train and have fun. if the guy asks you to worship, find another school where you feal comfortable.

i hate the new born christian, i have had more of those people try to convert me and get me to go to their church, then i have had buddhists, muslims, and catholics combined.

i'm actually going to agree with lungushuns post,
catholic church does burn incense of a sort during masses.

[mantis108]

Have you ever at least consider the practical aspect of burning incense instead of just buying the preachers' line of burning incense is an "evil" act?

Once upon a time, especially in the west people seldom bathe and there is hygenic problem when masses gather (couching and such). The fire and smoke help to reduce the risk of airborne deseases. Incenses are also expensive stuff and hard to come by. So the nobles, who are often patrons of the Churches or temples, would like to show off their "contributions" to the ritual rites by burning incense and their subjects would appreciate their "lords" on earth while worshipping the Lord in Heaven.

It is one thing to be a montheist but it's quite another to be an idle minded person (Chinese or otherwise) to be dubed by doctrine. If God gives us a brian (unless you view it as another Satan's device), I say let's use it properly.

Mantis108

[lunghushan]

Have you ever at least consider the practical aspect of burning incense instead of just buying the preachers' line of burning incense is an "evil" act?

Once upon a time, especially in the west people seldom bathe and there is hygenic problem when masses gather (couching and such). The fire and smoke help to reduce the risk of airborne deseases.

Mantis108

Or in other words, Europeans were a smelly bunch. LOL

No, seriously, get a large group of people in a room for a long time and it stinks. In the protestant church we would be constantly munching on tic-tacs, and stuff.

Not to mention that in the Bible, the Three Wise Men bring the baby Jesus what? Anybody? Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh. What is in those censers?

[Old Tiger]

I'm assuming the comment about burning incense is in response to my post. There is nothing wrong with burning incense for fragrant. However, why should I go and burn incense to Kwan Gung, when Kwan Gung is not my ancestor nor do I view him as a deity. As I said before, in the chinese culture, when they burn incense to Kwan Gung or other non-ancestor, they are doing it for a religious purppose, not for showing respect. In addition, no where in my post did I tell people not to burn incense nor did I tell anyone not to do anything. I just said what I would not do. But then I'm ask why can't I be tolerant and be more open minded. :confused: Again, I don't know if that was a response to my post or not. I apologies if it was not.

As for Catholics and censer? What is the purpose of censer? Isn't it for some type of religious purpose more than just to keep a room from smelling bad? This is a legit question, because I'm not Catholic and we don't practice burning incense or anything like that in our church and I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i stopped reading the posts after the first page but i have always had a question for people that are are so turned off/offended/ or otherwise put out by the fact that there may be an element of buddhist philosophy in martial arts. the question is are you so in doubt of your faith that you can't study kung fu from someone whose philosophy is different than yours? i mean that with all due respect. it seems to me that if your faith in your religion is strong enough that it shouldn't matter what the school or sifu's personal beliefs are even if they are displayed in the school. i have also heard people say 'well they have buddha statues in their school.' but so do most chinese restaurants. never stopped them from eating there.

and regarding your definition of the occult:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
oc·cult /əˈkʌlt, ˈɒkʌlt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-kuhlt, ok-uhlt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.
4. hidden from view.
5. (in early science)
a. not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.
b. of a nature not understood, as physical qualities.
c. dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.
6. Medicine/Medical. present in amounts too small to be visible: a chemical test to detect occult blood in the stool.
–noun
7. the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as a whole (usually prec. by the).
8. occult studies or sciences (usually prec. by the).
–verb (used with object)
9. to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide.
10. Astronomy. to hide (a celestial body) by occultation.
–verb (used without object)
11. to become hidden or shut off from view.

the dictionary lists definitions in an order that shows the mostly commonly accepted meaning first and least common last. i have heard church people use this word and than give the definition you did. its a subtle form of manipulation of the language. for the most part people use the occult and are making an implication or even accusation. knowing the whole time what it would come across meaning.


i would also encourage you to read the book living buddha, living christ.
its a comparative religions book.

[lunghushan]

I guess the thing I never got is what my parents and Christians really think is going to happen.

The way they talk about it, it sounds like they think it's going to be like something like a cross between a satanic cult or something and 'Charmed' where they are somehow going to manifest demons or something.

Somehow ... nothing like this ever has happened. I mean, I have even gone to pagan ceremonies (Wicca), they have a Sabbat or something, and it's a bunch of people talking about gibberish basically and then all the people who aren't in alcoholics anonymous go and eat food and drink beer.

You have a bunch of people who ascribe a whole bunch of supernatural phenomenon to a religion (Christianity), but I never came across any of it. Christianity was just a bunch of people getting together and talking about some verses, then they go and barbecue and maybe play some soft-ball. There's no water to wine or walking on water or any of that.

Wiccans ... a bunch of people getting together and talking about some verses, mother earth this, that, and then they go and barbecue. Nobody gets struck by lightning or possessed by demons.

Chinese martial arts ... a bunch of people getting together to practice martial arts, and then they go eat Chinese food.

Bottomline is ... I don't understand what people are getting so excited about. If you find somebody that can somehow conjure demons like in 'Charmed' or something, please let me know, okay?

[IronWeasel]

Sifu Allen ----> two years of seminary.

Teaches a bible study after workouts.

[Shaolin Wookie]

People say that Christians are intolerants, and someone even said it here. JDK ask for a simple request for some Christian MA schools and he even stated that he is not pushing his beliefs onto people, but there sure was a lot of bashing on Christianity on this thread. So where is your 'tolerants' for JDK or other Christian belief? I do understand that some of the things said about fundamentalists, fundies or whatever, are the fault of the fundamentalists themselves, but that is another discussion that I won't get into now.

He's posted this issue on several different threads....and he's insulted many of us by posting links to Buddhist/Taoist websites and calling these things "occultic" and "demonic".....using them as clear examples of "darkness" and being allied with "the enemy"....an evangelical euphemism for Satan.

He's trying to pick a fight. I'm not stupid, nor are many of the detractors here. But when an evangelical starts insulting us, we'll get a little miffed now and again. I don't think we're being too hard on him. When you walk into a room and pick a fight, you better expect to have to put your dukes up. He takes his little potshots, then apologizes for offending people in the room. Then he's off to the next board, with all new links. He's done this on several boards. So why should we assume he's good-natured and straight-up?

AND HERE'S THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS POST:

If you want to study a traditional art, you had better respect the traditions of that art. Otherwise, go somewhere else where it's secular and non-traditional. Will you get as good instruction? Probably not. But you won't have to deal with all that "demonic stuff"...:rolleyes:

Obviously you don't love traditional martial arts. You want traditional martial arts without the traditions.

Go study TKD, or get over it.

[lunghushan]

Go study TKD, or get over it.

Xtians are funny. Some of them are like the guys who have to get the latest gadget, or latest car, and then show it off all over.

I think JKD is one of these folks. He's found a new toy so now he's showing it off all over and banging it over everybody's head.

Give him a few years and he'll probably mellow out a little bit.

[YiLiQuan1]

The things that don't make sense to me in a person's quest for "Christian" martial arts are:

1) If your religion abhors violence and encourages pacifism and universal love, why learn to fight? Seems to be a failure to live up to the full tenets of the religion...

2) If the martial art is the product of "satanic" cultural influences, isn't it inherently tainted? If so, why study it? Just because the overt "satanic" influences are removed doesn't necessarily remove the covert influences...

3) If someone, regardless of religious background, wants to study martial arts, why are they so thin-skinned when faced with minor confrontation? An aggressive attacker is going to be far less polite and tolerant than a mob of perturbed internet posters...

4) If someone, regardless of religious background, wants to participate in a given activity that, on its surface, is offensive and contradicts that person's religious indoctrination, why work so hard to change that activity into something more philosophically/religiously palatable? Why not just find something else more in line with their beliefs?

From my perspective, people like this guy just want to dilute and cheapen what I enjoy for their own agenda-pursuing reasons. If he doesn't like what I (and others) are doing, he can find something else to do. I don't have to change, modify, or otherwise eliminate aspects he doesn't like just to please him. And he really doesn't have the right to ask that anyone do so.

[Hendrik]

Prayer = silence = Dao = nature

Holy spirit = Buddha nature = Qi


Let Go Let God = Dao Mimic Nature of Daoism = Drop it of Zen.



Why make so many man made differentiation?

Back to silence via Let Go Let God.

Peace

[cjurakpt]

Why not learn from the man HIMSELF? (http://www.jesusoftheweek.com/jesii/366/index.html)

it actually looks like he's pushing them towards each other to get them fighting...

[cjurakpt]

People say that Christians are intolerants, and someone even said it here. JDK ask for a simple request for some Christian MA schools and he even stated that he is not pushing his beliefs onto people, but there sure was a lot of bashing on Christianity on this thread. So where is your 'tolerants' for JDK or other Christian belief?
the tolerance is that no one disputes his right to post his comments; intolerance would be censuring him, or otherwise inhibiting his ability to express his opinion (e.g. - physical harm); BTW, any religion that inferes that anyone not following their tenets will face eternal suffering upon death, strikes me as fundamentally intolerant moreso than not...


Buddhist wants to reach a point of nirvana (or whatever the word is) where they can reach a point of immortal, instead of being reincarnated as a person or some animals depending upon the deeds they have done while they are here on earth.
not quite: the point is to stop the cycle of re-birth not to become immortal, but to reach a state of true emptiness; in Buddhism, immortals / gods are thought to be engaged in the same cycle as humans, but with less chance of reaching enlightenment because of their status (thy've got it too good in a way to be motivated to work towards Nirvanna, as opposed to humans who are born "just right" for cultivating it - not too hard, not too easy); anyway, it shoudl be emphasized that in all liklihood, these are metaphorical descriptions of a the situations in which we find ourselves daily: so, can we "empty" ourselves of ego in order to respond appropriately to a given situation, or do we rely on preconceived notions? if the latter, we are stuck in the cycle of death/re-birth, we are not truly free; when we reach a state of emptiness / no-mind, we are free from the habitual paterns of action/re-action that cause us the suffereing we experience...


when entering a gray area, you can use apostle Paul's advice about food offered to idol in 1 Cor. 8 as a guideline. However, don't use 1 Cor. 8 as an execuse to cover up your conscience. The main point is what is your conscience telling you and just follow your conscience.
ugh! this is exactly what will create conflict: instead of seeing something for what it is, one looks through the filter of an "authroity" for guidance; if you can't figure out how to do that, you have internal conflict; if by using the authority to address the situation you inadvertantly cause the other person suffering, then what? often you feel justified because you adhered to your principles;
and to be honest, it's almost always a gray area; if it's just using your conscience, (whatever informs that notwithstanding), then why the need for scripture refernce in the first place? the bottom line is that, as humans, we necessarilly act like SOB's to each other for many reasons: the hard part is to see that directly and not operate out of that...

[lunghushan]

then why the need for scripture refernce in the first place? the bottom line is that, as humans, we necessarilly act like SOB's to each other for many reasons: the hard part is to see that directly and not operate out of that...

Anyways, whatever ... I think people will find ways to lie to themselves no matter what and rationalize things for their own personal gain ... otherwise Christians wouldn't have gone around during the Crusades killing people like crazy and during the Inquisition slaughtering people and stuff.

I mean, a Crusade to take back the 'Holy Land'. What in all of the Bible would they use to rationalize such a thing??? Forcing people to follow their religion or die -- what would they use to rationalize that? I have no idea.

[JDK]

Xtians are funny. Some of them are like the guys who have to get the latest gadget, or latest car, and then show it off all over.

I think JKD is one of these folks. He's found a new toy so now he's showing it off all over and banging it over everybody's head.

Give him a few years and he'll probably mellow out a little bit.


I couldnt help notice that you posted Xtians...instead of CHRIST-IANS.
Why is it so hard for you name the name of Jesus with respect...I am just curious.

Anyways...I have been in ministry since 1977...so it is not a passing phase or a "toy" to me.

I am not trying to "bang anyones head"..as I have posted this at least twice now.

I am always in search of Truth

JDK

[MasterKiller]

Jesus was a Buddhist, anyway. What's the big deal?

Half of the stories about his life are clearly "borrowed" from the life of Siddhartha Guatama, including his wh0re disciple, the sojourn in the desert and the temptation of the Satan (Mara).

[htowndragon]

man JDK


gwan gong is gonna kick yo @55!

[lunghushan]

I couldnt help notice that you posted Xtians...instead of CHRIST-IANS.
Why is it so hard for you name the name of Jesus with respect...I am just curious.

Anyways...I have been in ministry since 1977...so it is not a passing phase or a "toy" to me.

I am not trying to "bang anyones head"..as I have posted this at least twice now.

I am always in search of Truth

JDK

Since 1977, eh? I use Xtians when I think somebody isn't really a Christian. I have met very few people I consider actually Christians. To quality to be a Christian IMHO you have to a) not bang your religion over anyone's head b) not judge other people as being somehow 'evil' or 'bad' because they're not Christian ("judge not lest thou be judged." c) not be so concerned with church and the outward appearance (forms) of your religion.

Just the fact that somebody calls it a 'ministry' refers to being more concerned with church and outward forms and prosthetylizing. We used to go on Tuesday nights to 'minister' to people ... which meant bothering them by ringing their doorbells and then talking their ears off about some book.

My Godparents were a perfect example of Xtians. They were constantly 'ministering', which meant they were constantly banging their religion over people's heads, bringing it up in every aspect of conversation, making it impossible to be around them if you weren't Christian.

I had a friend from Christian school and high school that IMHO was the example of a good Christian. He read the Bible, he tried to pratice its tenants, he didn't worry himself with what other people were doing and he could actually eat lunch and hang with regular people without bringing up Jesus 15 times during the course of the conversation or saying, "Those people are bad because they don't go to Church."

So let's just say 'WHATEVER' ...

[mantis108]

You know guys I figured out what this JKD guy is ranting on about - I think. :D

You see he must have gone to an un-named JKD school (he must love the training there for whatever reason) which we all know uses the Yin Yang logo as designed by Bruce Lee to represent his philosophy. The JKD style must have been the last resort of Kung Fu training place for our friend here as it is quite Americanized "Kung Fu". Now we all know that our friend claims to be an Evangelical Christian minister; thus, there is a conflict of interest because of the logo's symbolic tenets. The real issue isn't really about whether as a born again Christian should or should not take up martial arts but that it's not "cool" for a Evangelical Christian minister to go to a JKD school with that particular logo. So to be religiously and politically correct (no seperation of church and state business), our friend JKD has to come up with a way to keep his Kung Fu practice for whatever reasons plus keeping his ministerial status (good pay check and benefits right?) and not to bear the wrath of the Evangelical possy of youknowwho.

Com' on, man be a man and tell your "Godly" community that I am an American first and foremost and I have the freedom to practice martial arts for such freedom is guaranteed by the Constitutuion and Charter of Rights. I (you) will deal with God when the time comes. It is not the Evangelical possy's business, so bucker off people. See it's not that hard, my friend. :cool:

Why can't you tell the truth? It's not that difficult to figure something like this out. But never mind, we understand what the Evangelists are like sadly. Anyhow, good luck and may your God be with you.

Mantis108

[htowndragon]

yeah well general kwan is still angry.

[lunghushan]

"Evangelical Christian minister"

Oh. I guess I didn't realize that he is a minister -- I thought when he said the ministry he was just meaning he's the usual type that goes around preaching to people on Tuesdays.

Or maybe I was hoping he meant he was in the band Ministry.

At any rate wow, that's really bad if you're an Evangelical and they'd freak out over some Yin-Yang symbol. Personally I'm scared to death of Evangelicals because I think they're kindof like Neo-Fascists. But if you're an Evangelical there's probably no point in trying to reason with you because you couldn't put anything forward that is rational without your flock freaking out.

Anyways, there's plenty of Christian places for you to practice at, so cool.

[qiphlow]

hey, here's a thought--
if jesus the christ=god himself, and god is omnipotent (all-powerful), aren't all martial arts and artists doing the will of god/christ?

[SevenStar]

Don't even get me started. My dad won't talk to me because:

a) I went over there, just to visit.
b) He starts on about the Bible and Christian banter and about how I'll go to hell if I'm not a Christian.
c) I try to pacify him by just listening for a while, but he keeps getting on me and on me, so finally I ask him what proof he has of anything in the Bible.
d) We argue a bit, and I make the case that I have no idea if any of it is true because it's just a book.
e) Now he won't talk to me. Because I 'insulted' his religion. First off, I never mentioned religion, HE mentioned it, and banged it over my head for about 45 minutes before I even responded. Then I just said that I (I, me, not him) have no proof anything in the Bible is true.

Fundies are IMHO a curse on the world.

If they would just mind their own business, who cares what they practice? At least the Asian Christians that I know are more into just doing their own thing. Maybe they've had enough persecution in China and wherever they are from, so they realize that being able to practice their religion in peace is good enough without trying to convert the entire world.


it can indeed be proved that the bible's geography and some of it's events are true, just none pertaining to jesus and his miracles.

[SevenStar]

hey, here's a thought--
if jesus the christ=god himself, and god is omnipotent (all-powerful), aren't all martial arts and artists doing the will of god/christ?

there is actually a verse in the bible which states something to the effect of "let all men have a sword. Let he who does not have one sell his shirt and buy one" - I'll find the exact reference.

However, eastern martial arts are based upon eastern religion, which is non christian. So, technically, the eastern arts were created by people of a different faith, and are consequently not rooted in christianity. god may have made the men who created the arts, but they created the arts on their own, based on the path of faith they chose. God may not condone such a thing.

[SevenStar]

Anyways, whatever ... I think people will find ways to lie to themselves no matter what and rationalize things for their own personal gain ... otherwise Christians wouldn't have gone around during the Crusades killing people like crazy and during the Inquisition slaughtering people and stuff.

I mean, a Crusade to take back the 'Holy Land'. What in all of the Bible would they use to rationalize such a thing??? Forcing people to follow their religion or die -- what would they use to rationalize that? I have no idea.

jerusalem. The jew, muslims and christians all have significant history there. They are fighting over control of the land that all three religions consider holy.


JDK, since you've been in ministry so long, what say you of all of the pagan symbology found in the christian religion?

[JDK]

You know guys I figured out what this JKD guy is ranting on about - I think. :D

You see he must have gone to an un-named JKD school (he must love the training there for whatever reason) which we all know uses the Yin Yang logo as designed by Bruce Lee to represent his philosophy.

The Yin/Yang logo was used centuries before Lee was born.


The JKD style must have been the last resort of Kung Fu training place for our friend here as it is quite Americanized "Kung Fu". Now we all know that our friend claims to be an Evangelical Christian minister; thus, there is a conflict of interest because of the logo's symbolic tenets. The real issue isn't really about whether as a born again Christian should or should not take up martial arts but that it's not "cool" for a Evangelical Christian minister to go to a JKD school with that particular logo. So to be religiously and politically correct (no seperation of church and state business), our friend JKD has to come up with a way to keep his Kung Fu practice for whatever reasons plus keeping his ministerial status (good pay check and benefits right?) and not to bear the wrath of the Evangelical possy of youknowwho.

I have never visited a Jeet Kune Do School...although I was a fan of Bruce Lee as a teenager.:cool:

I do NOT recieve a salary from my church nor any benefits...I work a secular job.
And the REAL ISSUE as you put it..is my desire to practice the Arts and NOT violate my belief system.
Hence my starting this thread to see if there were any Christian Schools of Martial Arts..where the ceremonies were free of any Chinese diety worship or honoring. ( hank you to those who provided me with the Links to those Schools)



Com' on, man be a man and tell your "Godly" community that I am an American first and foremost and I have the freedom to practice martial arts for such freedom is guaranteed by the Constitutuion and Charter of Rights. I (you) will deal with God when the time comes. It is not the Evangelical possy's business, so bucker off people. See it's not that hard, my friend. :cool:

Why can't you tell the truth? It's not that difficult to figure something like this out. But never mind, we understand what the Evangelists are like sadly. Anyhow, good luck and may your God be with you.

Mantis108

Sorry , but You are way off Mantis....I can and do tell the truth. I am the Pastor AND President of my Church legally..AND I personally co-signed on the Mortgage to buy the Building we currently meet in. I can say whatever I please...and I choose to try and follow the Bible as my Ultimate Guide and authority...not man.

I can only say not all evangelicals are the same...there are still some of us out there with integrity, a true love for the Lord...and a desire to OFFER others to at least examine the claims and Life of Jesus ...WHY? Becuae our Lord told us to before He returned to The Father after His ressurection...

Matthew28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway *, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


May God bless you as well

JDK

[SevenStar]

I don't know of many pastors who get no salary or compensation whatsoever, even if they have other jobs. Out of curiosity, how big is your church?

And did you see my question above about pagan symbols?

[lunghushan]

This is all too much like conversations with my dad. I don't think I want to deal with these threads anymore.

You know, though, we do have something in Seattle that's kindof like a Christian martial arts school.

It's called 'Tai Chi'. They do tai chi form without applications and imagine they're Lao Tzu or something ... it's like martial arts without the martial arts for anti-violence people.

LOL

[SaintSage]

"Love God with all your heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself."
"Love each other as I have loved you."

Christianity is about LOVE. We are taught to be completly selfless, therefore not defending ourselves unless our life is on the line. (Now, I'm Catholic, a Quaker might disagree with me on that point.) It is also felt that we need to protect others, those who can't protect themselves. It's through love.

By the way, the Sermon on the Mount was very much about how to live our daily lives. "Blessed are the poor in spirit" we don't have attachments to material things, our hearts are to be simple and loving. The highest Christian living will create a man's heart and soul into one just like the highest Buddhist or Daoist, only the paradigm is different. (The metaphysics are very different, but the feelings are the same.) Another reason to love our bothers and sisters in different (not opposing) faiths.

The ideal of Jesus is lost on many people, they should not be attacked for this, they do not know any better. We should show them kindness and compassion, and eat with them. Talk over coffe about new perspectives they could gain on their faith. Jesus was a very special individual, we can't live up to his example completly, but we can sure try. And the surest way to do that is Love.

It's early where I live, and perhaps my writing doesn't flow well, but I wanted to defend the main tenet of our faith, love. So if you think JDK is full of it, don't attack him. If someone says something against Christianity, don't attack him. Just have compassion for their "ignorance" and remember we are all just trying to make it. Compassion stems from love. Keep love in your hearts, and religious differences fade away.

[wiz cool c]

Kung Fu is a chinese art why would you study it and at the same time disrespect its culture. I mean give me a brake. I follow a religion thats not chinese and practice a taoist martial art. If you are real about your religion and not doing it as a show or out of pride you should have no problem.

[B-Rad]

I think the traditional kungfu community has a lot more in common with the evangelical community than they realize. Lots of claims they can't back up, accusations of falsified histories, blindly following their ministers/sifus... people who get large followings through miracles/qigong demonstrations...

[B-Rad]

If you have read my latest thread on FeemonOng's Saved Formula's you knowmthat I love the Southern Sytems of the Martial Arts....but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.


Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .

I am a born-again believer...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.

I am NOT trying to push my beliefs down anyones throat....but If anyone knows of a School where the teacher is a born-again christian that would be the Ultimate!!!!! Even if the teacher is neutral...but is aware of the Occult Practices that go along with many Styles, and leaves them out of training....That is for me!

Thanks in advance....and I hope I didnt offend anyone

JD

Anyway, I'd say if you don't want to learn about Buddhism, Taoism, or any other Chinese cultural aspects of martial arts, don't take traditional Chinese martial arts classes. There's TONS of options out there for you, like mixed martial arts and various other sport arts for example. Though, I've been involved in Chinese martial arts for about 11 years now and have never had to partake in any kind of deity worship, or occult practices.
Often I find some evangelical Christian's ideas of what's "occult" in CMA come more from a lack of understanding of the culture than anything. Not all Chinese martial artists were Buddhist and Taoist. There's also been Muslim and Christians involved in the martial arts in China in the past before too. Many religions (including Christianity) have adopted ceremonies/practices from various cultures over the years and there's no reason a Christian can't adapt to Chinese martial arts too.

I used to go to an evangelical church and I've been in Chinese martial arts for about 11 years now. Never have I been required to worship a deity, or do anything terribly "odd" by evangelical standards.

[wiz cool c]

Christian Martial Arts Schools are very very gay.

[JDK]

Christian Martial Arts Schools are very very gay.

Nice.

Intelligent, mature response from a 35 year old man. not


JDK

[Corwyn]

I don't usually step into these threads because I have learned that there really is no point in arguing with someone who is clearly not in touch with some aspects of reality.

But reading this thread has brought a question to mind - What responsibility do Sifu's have in accepting and teaching a student who displays behaviors or ideas which indicate an unstable mind?"

No matter what secondary reason we have for the study of martial arts, at the base of the learning (if we become at all proficient at it) is the ability to cause great bodily harm to others. We are in effect giving someone an invisible loaded gun. If a man came into your school and said that they wanted to learn martial arts because they were part of the arian brotherhood and wanted to learn how to kill "blackies' with greater skill, would you teach them? If not why not and why accept, encourage and give direction to someone like JDK?

The only difference between this scenario and JDK is that JDK uses more PC language towards the culture and philosophy he deems inferior to his and he at the present time shares his delusion with more people .

Yet the base of his belief - by his own admission as a fundi and the comments he made on this forum- shares the same delusion as the AB members! Depending on his fundi view on pre - mid or post tribulation he wants/needs/must go to war against those whom he's delusions based on a book transcribed from the stories of 2000 year old illiterate goatherds, tell him are demon worshiping inferiors.

While I am not aware of any writings specifically addressing the issue of mental stability it is possible to infer that the rigorous indoctrination of shaolin monks, for example, may very well have included the objective of weeding out the flaky or unstable mind. I am also not aware of any news stories ever of "racist man on a Martial Arts rampage Kills 5" but still -
What responsibility do you think you have as a member of a MA community to address this?

[JDK]

I don't usually step into these threads because I have learned that there really is no point in arguing with someone who is clearly not in touch with some aspects of reality.

But reading this thread has brought a question to mind - What responsibility do Sifu's have in accepting and teaching a student who displays behaviors or ideas which indicate an unstable mind?"

Hi Corwyn...nice to me you too.( with all of your 22 posts since 2005:cool: )

So because I am a christian, I am mentally unstable.:confused:

I have posted nothing to my knowledge that any true believer in the Bible and Jesus Christ would not at least, even if they have a difference of opinion..agree with much of my posts in that they are Scripturally correct and reflect the views of Millions of Evangelicals in the United States ( Who are obviously also unstable by your standards) If A= B...and B =C...then A also =C get it?

Bold in my faith..yes. Out spoken, maybe a little too much...yes. Controversial
by coming on a MA Site and seeking more knowledge...guilty as charged.

But mentally unstable ??? Sounds like more of a put-down than an accurrate diagnoises.



No matter what secondary reason we have for the study of martial arts, at the base of the learning (if we become at all proficient at it) is the ability to cause great bodily harm to others. We are in effect giving someone an invisible loaded gun. If a man came into your school and said that they wanted to learn martial arts because they were part of the arian brotherhood and wanted to learn how to kill "blackies' with greater skill, would you teach them? If not why not and why accept, encourage and give direction to someone like JDK?

What ? Im a preacher! :) I dont look for trouble, start fights or try to be evil.
I already KNOW how to cause bodily harm. I strike like a jackhammer and know all the "knock out points" of the human anatomy and my grappling is decent.
Yet in 20 years I have only used my art to defend myself or my loved ones from bodily harm , maybe 5 times. AND only used sufficient force, not overkill. Could I have caused much more damage to certain ones who attempted to injure me or my family ? Absolutely.
But I have a moral obligation to treat life sacred..and do the least damage possible to those who are untrained in fighting arts.



The only difference between this scenario and JDK is that JDK uses more PC language towards the culture and philosophy he deems inferior to his and he at the present time shares his delusion with more people .

Yet the base of his belief - by his own admission as a fundi and the comments he made on this forum- shares the same delusion as the AB members! Depending on his fundi view on pre - mid or post tribulation he wants/needs/must go to war against those whom he's delusions based on a book transcribed from the stories of 2000 year old illiterate goatherds, tell him are demon worshiping inferiors.

While I am not aware of any writings specifically addressing the issue of mental stability it is possible to infer that the rigorous indoctrination of shaolin monks, for example, may very well have included the objective of weeding out the flaky or unstable mind. I am also not aware of any news stories ever of "racist man on a Martial Arts rampage Kills 5" but still -
What responsibility do you think you have as a member of a MA community to address this?

I think your responsibility is to take care of your own business.

I am not going to waste my time debating you on brainwashing and Shaolin Monks etc...as compared with Evangelical Christianty.

Others have posted several threads agreeing that you CAN enter the spirit realm through certain QI-GONG practices. ( I noted on one of your 2 threads that you started you dont "believe in all that qi stuff" so I can overlook your ignorance in those matters.

If I have offended you in my threads...point out the offenses and we can talk.

Otherwise, watch who and why you decide to suddenly "come out of the wood work" and verbally attack...next time.

It is not safe.:D


JDK

[Wong Ying Home]

" Otherwise, watch who and why you decide to suddenly "come out of the wood work" and verbally attack...next time.

It is not safe.


JDK"

Looks like a vield threat...should'nt you be turning the other cheek

[JDK]

" Otherwise, watch who and why you decide to suddenly "come out of the wood work" and verbally attack...next time.

It is not safe.


JDK"

Looks like a vield threat...should'nt you be turning the other cheek

Oh I didnt mean to incinuate I was threatening him in any way...I was just trying to save the kid from "poppin off" at the wrong person some day...I have no idea where he lives and have no desire for violence.

I apologize if anyone else got that impression, including Corwyn

Freinds? :D

[Corwyn]

Hi Corwyn...nice to me you too.( with all of your 22 posts since 2005:cool: )

The above is called an argumentum ad hominem., Since when does the number of my previous posts have any relevance to its content?


So because I am a christian, I am mentally unstable.:confused:
I have posted nothing to my knowledge that any true believer in the Bible and Jesus Christ would not at least, even if they have a difference of opinion..agree with much of my posts in that they are Scripturally correct and reflect the views of Millions of Evangelicals in the United States ( Who are obviously also unstable by your standards) If A= B...and B =C...then A also =C get it?

Just because your perception of reality agrees with or is based on a book of fantasy - utterly poor, violent and despotic one at that - doesn't mean that it has anything to do with ACTUAL reality!

If A= B...and B =C...then A also =C get it
Yes PERFECTLY and yes I consider ANY one - and by the way basing an arguement on the fact that SO many people believe the same delusion is called an argumentum ad verecundiam or argument from authority which again does NOTHING to prove your point of view correct - who takes such idiotic nonsense as
"I have read a few thing about chi vampirisum, but the informations i got was interesting and a bit disturbing" or rapture, or that the ToE is wrong and there was a flood, seriously to be mentally unstable!

And just so you don't feel picked on I will categorically state that same thing about any chi "practitioner" who claims they have a special source of supernatural power, or wikans who believe in "mother earth" or Incas who used to pierce their *****'s so they could poor that blood on seeds so their crops would grow next year etc. It's just that I haven't head any chi practitioners blowing up clinics or killing doctors because those doctors didn't believe or practice chi.

"But mentally unstable ??? Sounds like more of a put-down than an accurrate diagnoises."


Again, You claim to believe in the existance of chi vampires, demons among other statements you've made and take a book literally that claims the earth is flat and square. That 3 is the number of pi, that the SUN revolves around the earth, that a man can live inside a fish for 3 days, that some guy built a boat and the earth was flooded for 40 days, that owning slaves is OK, that more than 50% -women - of the human race are inherently EVIL. And the list goes on. I not only call that mentally unstable but morally bankrupt!

What ? Im a preacher! :) I dont look for trouble, start fights or try to be evil.
Ever hear the expression the road to hell
I think your responsibility is to take care of your own business.

I am not going to waste my time debating you on brainwashing and Shaolin Monks etc...as compared with Evangelical Christianty.

"[/i] so I can overlook your ignorance in those matters. :eek: This from someone who is afraid of chi vampires Otherwise, watch who and why you decide to suddenly "come out of the wood work" and verbally attack...next time.

It is not safe.:D

JDK


AND YET with all of the above, despite your hollow protestations in the next post your virulant reaction is plain and evident. And TYPICAL of both the mentally unstable (when their delusions are challanged) and Fundi xians towards anyone who doesn't addhere to the dogmatic nonsense they preach.

And by the way, I've been threatened by far scarier people than you in REAL life
- much to my regret as I get older, sometimes for defending the right of lunatics like you to believe in what they want.

[Corwyn]

Came across this gem, when I went to another forum.
Another perfect example of how delusional people who take the bible literally are.

http://www.dbhome.dk/carlo/cat.htm

[Wong Ying Home]

The Cats link was a hoot...:D

[lunghushan]

The Cats link was a hoot...:D

Somebody oughta write a 20 page dissertation on whether or not Christians should eat food, since obviously it was only pagans who ate food before Christianity (there being no Christians until they invented the religion 2000 years ago).

[djcetra]

Personally I feel that the study of Kung Fu and other MA's should be about yourself, exploring yourself and the religion that is you. The real battle here imo is how you choose to perceive things, you don't have to accept any religious teaching anyone shares with you if you don't want to. Work on yourself, believe in yourself and study your own vessel until you know no other but yourself.

Leave organized religion out of MA I say.

Respectz.

[JDK]

AND YET with all of the above, despite your hollow protestations in the next post your virulant reaction is plain and evident. And TYPICAL of both the mentally unstable (when their delusions are challanged) and Fundi xians towards anyone who doesn't addhere to the dogmatic nonsense they preach.

And by the way, I've been threatened by far scarier people than you in REAL life
- much to my regret as I get older, sometimes for defending the right of lunatics like you to believe in what they want.

Corwyn

I didnt mean to incinuate I was threatening YOU in any way...I was just trying to save you from "poppin off" at the wrong person some day...I have no idea where you lives and have no desire for violence.

I apologize if anyone else got that impression.

Freinds? ..or at least can we be civil?

Peace....

JDK
__________________
"It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.[

[JDK]

Personally I feel that the study of Kung Fu and other MA's should be about yourself, exploring yourself and the religion that is you. The real battle here imo is how you choose to perceive things, you don't have to accept any religious teaching anyone shares with you if you don't want to. Work on yourself, believe in yourself and study your own vessel until you know no other but yourself.

Leave organized religion out of MA I say.

Respectz.

You wroteLeave organized religion out of MA I say.

I wish that were possible djcetra..I really do!!!! Unfortunely they are almost impossible to seperate ( especially Shaolin, and other non-sport-oriented Martial Arts. WHY??? Glad you asked...;)

Most of the time the Teachers of these arts are descendants or part of a Long Linage of teachers of the past centuries that based a portion of their Fighting Training on their Buddhist, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc... Faith and/or personal Belief system.

As I have stated....I want to practice and learn from a Teacher who is a Born-Again Christian....however, I am more than ready to be taught by a neutral non-religious teacher .

That means .....no bowing, no Pictures Posted on the Walls or Tokens ( forms) done to honor a past Religious Figure/"Master", no Christian teaching, nor Religious teaching of any kind...no physcic meditaton of any form that might accidently involve me in the spirit realm..

I want find such a teacher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) So I agree with you...leave ALL KINDS of Organized religion out of the teaching ..this includes ( Buddhist, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Christian etc... Faith and/or personal Belief system.)

JDK

[djcaldwell]

Came across this gem, when I went to another forum.
Another perfect example of how delusional people who take the bible literally are.

http://www.dbhome.dk/carlo/cat.htm

That is one of the most idiotic and simultaneously scariest thing I've read in a while.

There are fundi's in every religion and their insane interpretations of "stories" are taken as fact in blind faith. This is usually a group of people with a longing or desire to be lead. That's what makes them dangerous is that the truth of the matter is most people in this world are not leaders they are followers who do not question for themselves ANYTHING. They are told something is fact because 10000 before them said it is so and so it must be.

I was raised old school Roman Catholic. My grandparents believed the bible was factually based and the fear of God was in us all. My mothers generation questioned things and then our generation well...we question everything for the most part. All of our questioning suddenly turned the bibles factual stories into what the Church refers to today as "didactic fiction" - AKA "FOLK TALES".

So although the basic principles (which are the true fundamentals of most religions) which George Carlin narrowed down to 2 from 10 are pretty much true - Don't Kill and Don't Steal. The rest is nothing for than stories - which if you think about it makes it no different than Scientology - just more widely accepted.

[djcaldwell]

You wroteLeave organized religion out of MA I say.

As I have stated....I want to practice and learn from a Teacher who is a Born-Again Christian....however, I am more than ready to be taught by a neutral non-religious teacher .


That means .....no bowing, no Pictures Posted on the Walls or Tokens ( forms) done to honor a past Religious Figure/"Master", no Christian teaching, nor Religious teaching of any kind...no physcic meditaton of any form that might accidently involve me in the spirit realm..

I want find such a teacher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) So I agree with you...leave ALL KINDS of Organized religion out of the teaching ..this includes ( Buddhist, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Christian etc... Faith and/or personal Belief system.)

JDK

Go to a boxing Gym or MMA school - Kung Fu or any other form of MA is not for you.

[X-Warrior]

Don't even get me started. My dad won't talk to me because:

a) I went over there, just to visit.
b) He starts on about the Bible and Christian banter and about how I'll go to hell if I'm not a Christian.
c) I try to pacify him by just listening for a while, but he keeps getting on me and on me, so finally I ask him what proof he has of anything in the Bible.
d) We argue a bit, and I make the case that I have no idea if any of it is true because it's just a book.
e) Now he won't talk to me. Because I 'insulted' his religion. First off, I never mentioned religion, HE mentioned it, and banged it over my head for about 45 minutes before I even responded. Then I just said that I (I, me, not him) have no proof anything in the Bible is true.

Fundies are IMHO a curse on the world.

If they would just mind their own business, who cares what they practice? At least the Asian Christians that I know are more into just doing their own thing. Maybe they've had enough persecution in China and wherever they are from, so they realize that being able to practice their religion in peace is good enough without trying to convert the entire world.

I probably will go to hell, BUT isn't religion a belief? It is what you believe and others believe the other way. I can't understand why people - like your dad - forces his believes on others.

I am a Christian and had Buddhist masters. I always watched their ceremonies with the utmost interest. Doesn't mean I changed to a different belief, because that is also just a belief so why change. :D

Anyway. I think any Christian can go to any Buddhist school or even a temple. Doesn't mean you are going to hell or anything like that. I think it is a great learning experience to watch others. I have spent over 20 years reading Buddhist writings and watching Buddhist ceremonies only because of my interest and research in the origins of martial arts but I never considered myself a Buddhist. I know a lot about it but I still remained who I always was. And I think if someone is afraid of facing the other religion, than he/she by no means can consider himself a true believer.

-X-

[X-Warrior]

You wroteLeave organized religion out of MA I say.

I wish that were possible djcetra..I really do!!!! Unfortunely they are almost impossible to seperate ( especially Shaolin, and other non-sport-oriented Martial Arts. WHY??? Glad you asked...;)

Most of the time the Teachers of these arts are descendants or part of a Long Linage of teachers of the past centuries that based a portion of their Fighting Training on their Buddhist, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc... Faith and/or personal Belief system.

As I have stated....I want to practice and learn from a Teacher who is a Born-Again Christian....however, I am more than ready to be taught by a neutral non-religious teacher .

That means .....no bowing, no Pictures Posted on the Walls or Tokens ( forms) done to honor a past Religious Figure/"Master", no Christian teaching, nor Religious teaching of any kind...no physcic meditaton of any form that might accidently involve me in the spirit realm..

I want find such a teacher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) So I agree with you...leave ALL KINDS of Organized religion out of the teaching ..this includes ( Buddhist, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Christian etc... Faith and/or personal Belief system.)

JDK

JDK, I think your first step needs to be is to relax. I just posted a message saying that I have studied under Buddhist masters, yet went to Church (Catholic church) every Sunday. I never confused the two, I always kept my martial arts studies as 'martial arts studies'. Just because the teacher had his own belief, doesn't mean I followed it and doesn't mean they ever wanted me to follow them. Just look at them as anyone different from you - everyone is different from everyone is some way. I think you are confused and not able to sort out in what you should believe. Just because you visit a Buddhist church, a Muslim temple (mosque), a martial arts school, doesn't meant you have to become one. Keep it where they are and take what you want to take and leave the rest there.

That is how I have always been. Like I said, I have been studying martial arts history in every tiny little details for over 20 years now and it always involved reading about Buddhism and Zen and the others, but it doesn't mean I became the follower of any of these. I only use the martial arts portion of it and it is still my most beloved and favorite past time.

Again, just keep cool! Don't let the outside confuse your inside.

-X-

[syn]

Denying yourself the oppurtunity to be exposed to other cultures and religions is accepting ignorance.

You can have TMA without the culture, or else it's not traditional. So like most said you best bet is MMA, or boxing.

[JDK]

I probably will go to hell, BUT isn't religion a belief? It is what you believe and others believe the other way. I can't understand why people - like your dad - forces his believes on others.

I am a Christian and had Buddhist masters. I always watched their ceremonies with the utmost interest. Doesn't mean I changed to a different belief, because that is also just a belief so why change. :D

Anyway. I think any Christian can go to any Buddhist school or even a temple. Doesn't mean you are going to hell or anything like that. I think it is a great learning experience to watch others. I have spent over 20 years reading Buddhist writings and watching Buddhist ceremonies only because of my interest and research in the origins of martial arts but I never considered myself a Buddhist. I know a lot about it but I still remained who I always was. And I think if someone is afraid of facing the other religion, than he/she by no means can consider himself a true believer.

-X-

I appreciate your thoughts, and I agree...it shouldnt be about fear.
Not knowing you at all...I take you at your word that you are a follower of Christ..a CHRISTian, if you will.

Being a christian, I am assuming you have spent as much or more time studying the Word of God s you have Buddhist teachings...PLEASE do not take that comment as "judging you"...as I said...we do not know each other, and the term "I am a christian" is tossed around so flippantly these days...many claim to be Christians...and yet do not practice even the most basic tenets of the Christian Faith.

I will assume I am writing to a born-again child of God.:)
The Bible says Eph 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Now I have learned that when God says "no fellowship" he means none.
And He takes it a step further, by stating that we are to defend the Faith by reproving ( correcting, rebuking, pointing out the wrong) of unfruitfull works of darkness.

We cannot have our Cake and eat it too.......

IF you believe The Bible...souls are at stake....and Buddhism is following a pagan idol religion....therebye disobeying God if we belong to The Lord as christians.

God states time and time in His Word that He refuses to share His Glory with any other false god...and that his children are to remain apart, seperate, and abstain from the very hint of idolatry and works of honor, homage, worship, respect, to any other God but the One True God of the Bible

I can only answer with God's Word brother...and feel free to respond if you do not accept pr have questions about the following COMMANDS ( not Suggestions;)

1Th 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1Jo 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.


II Corthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2Co 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said *, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Co 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

1Co 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

Ex 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

[Ben Gash]

Came across this gem, when I went to another forum.
Another perfect example of how delusional people who take the bible literally are.

http://www.dbhome.dk/carlo/cat.htm

That was quite the most mad thing I have seen in a long time.
*edit* Ahh, it's from a Jehovah's witness site

[Corwyn]

SO JDK,

gen 3:16
women suck

incest IS OK, and sometimes even lying is OK, contrary to the 10 commandments
Gen.17:15-16, 12:13-20 and then 20:2 and again 26:7

Rape is not only OK, but pleasing to your god - 16:1-4 or is it just the monage a trios that god digs?

Slavery is A OK
Gen 29:24, 29

Murder (because of rage and jealousy) is also A OK as long as you burn the correct set on entrails 4:8 and hey not only murder but torture too 16:6

Are you OK with ALL of these too?

[MasterKiller]

Ex 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

[/B]

But it is OK to worship other Gods as long as God is your primary God. The Old Testament is very clear on this. As long as you do not put Chicklor the Mighty Chicken-Headed Beast above God, you can worship him all you want (provided you do not make an idol).

Jews were not originally monothestic and worshipped many dieties (household gods, village gods, etc...)

[cjurakpt]

The Bible says
ah, the catch all justification...what makes the bible intrinsically more correct than any other spiritual text? answer: nothing (same for all the rest of them)


we are to defend the Faith by reproving ( correcting, rebuking, pointing out the wrong) of unfruitfull works of darkness.
basically defined as anything contrary to what the bible says...so much for tolerance...


and Buddhism is following a pagan idol religion....
no it's not; if you think it is, you show a total misunderstanding of the fundamental point of Buddhism (e.g. - that it's not a religion per se, that it has no formal opinion on deity-worship, that it works regardless of theistic belief or not etc.); the only real "problem" with Buddhism is that it's another belief system - again, Christianity per se is predicated on the notion that every other system is basically wrong (deny it, go ahead); Buddhism, on the other hand, doesn't reall care what you believe in, but that liberation / freedom from suffering is not conditional on deity belief / worship


God states time and time in His Word that He refuses to share His Glory with any other false god
again, by definition, false god = any god not the "God" making this statement...


as for the literal interpretation of scripture, here's some more bibical silliness from Leviticus:

Childbirth12:2 - 5: When a woman conceives and gives birth to a boy, she shall be ritually unclean for seven days...Then, for 33 additional days, she shall have a waiting period during which her blood is ritually clean. Until this purification period is complete, she shall not touch anything holy and shall not enter the sanctuary. 12:5 If she gives birth to a girl, she shall have for two weeks the same ritually unclean status as during her menstrual period. Then, for 66 days after that, she shall have a waiting period during which her blood is ritually clean."
(so, giving birth to a girl makes you twice as unclean as birthing a boy...)

Sartorial19:19 Do not wear a garment that contains a forbidden mixture of fabrics.(wool & linen as per Deuteronomy 22:11)

Tonsorial19:27 Do not cut off the hair on the sides of your head. Do not shave off the edges of your beard.

fine if you want to follow it (the last two), but how exactly does not following them (and they are not suggestions, remember that) make you a candidate for eternal d@mnation?

btw, JKD, do you follow those two last precepts? I guess you can give my regards to Beelzebub if you don't...and you can't plead ignorance now, since it's been pointed out to you...

[MasterKiller]

Chicklor the Mighty Chicken-Headed Beast approves of cjurakpt.

[chasincharpchui]

what do you christians have to say bout this?

fiction once again?

[Ben Gash]

The relationship between Judaic law and the Christian way of life is extremely complicated and often poorly understood. Study of the old Testament for Christians is A) a history lesson, B) a series of illustrative tales giving insights and ideas and showing life as it is( 3000 year old scripture is often more gritty and real than many contemporary works), C)It gives a comprehensive treatise on the concepts of sin and redemption, D) it contains all the prophecy that points to the coming of Jesus and E), through point C explains the mechanism of Christian's redemption through Christ's sacrifice.
The old testament is also generally poorly (and selectively) studied by Christians, as much of it is long, cumbersome and contextually dificult to understand.
People fail to grasp fundamentals of the old testament, which leads them down all manner of blind alleys. For example much of the Torah deals with secular, non spiritual issues. There are whole chapters devoted to the diagnosis, containment and treatment of leprosy!!! Context is often ignored as well. The much abused Leviticus is talking to Levites, the Israeli priest caste, and are guidance for them on hygeine, dispute handling (an eye for an eye is not a general moral point, it's about making fair and just proclaimations) and ceremonial duties, as well as spiritual issues. Many aspects of law relating to things that seem incredibly silly now are in fact relating to very specific pagan practises.
There is even a fundamental linguistic confusion, as the Hebrew word that we translate as "The Law" is more accurately "The Teacher", which would probably spare much of the pointless debate that goes on.
The thing most often forgotten though is that the old testament contains God's covenant with THE JEWS. The new testament very specifically states on multiple occasions that there is a new and different covenant for Christians, based on grace, forgiveness,faith, relationship and choice.

[Corwyn]

The relationship between Judaic law and the Christian way of life is extremely complicated and often poorly understood. Study of the old Testament for Christians is A) a history lesson, B) a series of illustrative tales giving insights and ideas and showing life as it is( 3000 year old scripture is often more gritty and real than many contemporary works), C)It gives a comprehensive treatise on the concepts of sin and redemption, D) it contains all the prophecy that points to the coming of Jesus and E), through point C explains the mechanism of Christian's redemption through Christ's sacrifice.
The old testament is also generally poorly (and selectively) studied by Christians, as much of it is long, cumbersome and contextually dificult to understand.
People fail to grasp fundamentals of the old testament, which leads them down all manner of blind alleys. For example much of the Torah deals with secular, non spiritual issues. There are whole chapters devoted to the diagnosis, containment and treatment of leprosy!!! Context is often ignored as well. The much abused Leviticus is talking to Levites, the Israeli priest caste, and are guidance for them on hygeine, dispute handling (an eye for an eye is not a general moral point, it's about making fair and just proclaimations) and ceremonial duties, as well as spiritual issues. Many aspects of law relating to things that seem incredibly silly now are in fact relating to very specific pagan practises.
There is even a fundamental linguistic confusion, as the Hebrew word that we translate as "The Law" is more accurately "The Teacher", which would probably spare much of the pointless debate that goes on.
The thing most often forgotten though is that the old testament contains God's covenant with THE JEWS. The new testament very specifically states on multiple occasions that there is a new and different covenant for Christians, based on grace, forgiveness,faith, relationship and choice.

Ben,

You are absolutely correct. However these reasons and logic only make sense if one understands the historical context and accepts the fact that these writings were created by MAN and ONLY man and are NOT to be blindly accepted as the infallible word(s) of some skyman. Once you start down that road you enter the world of neurosis or psychosis

[SevenStar]

I'm sure you guys caught the archeological find in jerusalem on the news. They found a tomb under a hotel. Inside, there are three caskets, one says mary magdalene, one says jesus and one says judah, son of jesus. What do you think about this? What if it is found to actually be jesus christ and mary magdalene?

[cjurakpt]

Many aspects of law relating to things that seem incredibly silly now are in fact relating to very specific pagan practises.

precisely - what made sense back then (e.g. - eat pork = die from trichinosis = God doesn't want you to eat pork), can be totally irrelevant now; which means one engages in a relitavistic reading of "sacred" texts; which makes sense; but then it opens you up to the possibility that someone can come along and punch holes in your theology a mile wide, and that is very inconvenient from the perspective of holding ultimate moral authority, not to mention dealing with pesky questions from congregants who really want you to have all the answers anyway (my opinion, sorry)

wha we then see is how "religion" is littl emore than an archaic convention that, back when people had a much pporer understanding of how the natural world operated (that is, cause and effect), they attribbuted many phennomena to "the divine"; as the utilitarian aspect of religion dwindled, it was replaced by a much more existential one, that is as an answer to questions such as the meaning of life, what is truth, and, most importantly, what happens after "I" die, will "I" still exist, and if so, will "I" be happy? not that these things weren't around a while ago either, but the utilitarian and the "spiritual" stuff was clearly delineated; now, unfortunately, since all of it has been relegated to the latter, you have people trying to justify why the Creator of the Universe (or Chicklor - I kinda have taken a shine to him myself) would utter these bon mots if they weren't meant to have meaning FOREVER! I mean, if they are not relevant now, then it implies somewhat short sighted thinking on "His" part and here we have yet another paradox (right up there with "if he created everything according to his wishes, then he allowed for free will, which allows for people to turn against / not believ in him, so that must also be part of his will, so why would he in fact condem to eternal suffering those carrying out his free will? and again, if he gave us free choice so that we could choose not to see him as god, then if we choose not to, he must be ok with that, etc. etc. etc.")

religion is silly; especially the hats...

[B-Rad]

I'm sure you guys caught the archeological find in jerusalem on the news. They found a tomb under a hotel. Inside, there are three caskets, one says mary magdalene, one says jesus and one says judah, son of jesus. What do you think about this? What if it is found to actually be jesus christ and mary magdalene?

I've been reading about it. At first I was fairly excited (seemed like an interesting find), but then I found out that they've known about this thing since the 1980's.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/26/jesus.sburial.ap/index.html

[chasincharpchui]

I'm sure you guys caught the archeological find in jerusalem on the news. They found a tomb under a hotel. Inside, there are three caskets, one says mary magdalene, one says jesus and one says judah, son of jesus. What do you think about this? What if it is found to actually be jesus christ and mary magdalene?

its actually more than 3 caskets

theres one for joseph
jesus
maria(his mother)
mariamne(mary magdalene)
judah son of jesus
and 2 of his brothers

cant remember
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=lost+tomb+jesus&search=Search

[Ben Gash]

In 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television.


10 characters

[Corwyn]

I wouldn't put much stock in those tombs.
First, they were found in 80, so outside of the "media" hype I seriously doubt that anything of great scholarly value will be revealed now...
It's going to be another Horaldo opens Al Capones tomb kind of thing.

Second, the names, Jesus, Joseph and Mary are like Michael and John and well Mary, today. If you found a wallet that said "this wallet belongs to John with no photo ID" who would you give it to?

Third, the location doesn't make real sense.
this is a middle class grave in Jerusalem for a poor guy from Galalleh - unless of course he got rich selling trinkets and splinters off the cross of the son of god :).

4th, short of a full scroll that said this is Jesus, the guy who preached that he was the son of god who had 12 desciples and married Marry signed in blood, there is simply no way to conclude that THIS is the guy. We have no pictures, - unless like JDK you think he was a white blond haired blue eyed guy :) (sorry couldn't resist) and outside of some VERY VERY tenuous writing by Josephus every other reference to the actual existence of a biblical JC has been completely debunked as forgeries by xian apologists. There is simply NO credible evidence that a guy anything like what is described in the buybull actually lived during the time described.

[SevenStar]

I've been reading about it. At first I was fairly excited (seemed like an interesting find), but then I found out that they've known about this thing since the 1980's.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/26/jesus.sburial.ap/index.html


yeah, they knew about it in the 80's but they didn't do all the reasearch that was performed this time around. statistical evidence, carbon dating, etc. they are now pretty sure that this actually is the tomb.

[NJM]

yeah, they knew about it in the 80's but they didn't do all the reasearch that was performed this time around. statistical evidence, carbon dating, etc. they are now pretty sure that this actually is the tomb.


Actually, due to carbon dating, they proved it isn't the tomb. And the name is wrong.

[SevenStar]

Actually, due to carbon dating, they proved it isn't the tomb. And the name is wrong.

their latest research shows the name is not wrong. mary magdalene was referred to then as mariamne.

[SevenStar]

I wouldn't put much stock in those tombs.
First, they were found in 80, so outside of the "media" hype I seriously doubt that anything of great scholarly value will be revealed now...
It's going to be another Horaldo opens Al Capones tomb kind of thing.

Second, the names, Jesus, Joseph and Mary are like Michael and John and well Mary, today. If you found a wallet that said "this wallet belongs to John with no photo ID" who would you give it to?



the names are common, but the fact that all of them are in a tomb together makes it significant, keeping with your example, if I find john's id, it doesn't mean much. however, if next to the id there was a phone number titled michael's daycare and a pic of a woman wearing a shirt that says mary, we can now start making conclusions.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Jesus wasn't named "Jesus".

His name was Yehoshua. "Jesus" is just the hellenic transmogrification of "Joshua." His name was "Joshua" Christ.....and Christ was tagged on as a descriptor.

Is that the name that appeared on the tomb? If they didn't address that, then the whole thing's bogus.

Interestingly enough, there's often a mistranslation in the New Testament related to the Jesus/Joshua separation....which biblical redactors ennabled in order to make stark contrasts between persons with the name Joshua.....regarding the battle where Joshua is in charge and hte sun stays at its zenith until the conclusion of the battle......

The redactors missed that editing error, and it states that Jesus was in charge when the sun held its zenith.....ahahaha.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

There is simply NO credible evidence that a guy anything like what is described in the buybull actually lived during the time described.

Funny.....but I've always been a proponent of the Holy Babble.:D

[cjurakpt]

in general, this one should make both the Bible and TCMA folks happy...
http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/kung-fu-jesus-movie-trailer/

[golden arhat]

I will assume I am writing to a born-again child of God.:)
The Bible says Eph 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Now I have learned that when God says "no fellowship" he means none.
And He takes it a step further, by stating that we are to defend the Faith by reproving ( correcting, rebuking, pointing out the wrong) of unfruitfull works of darkness.



IF you believe The Bible...souls are at stake....and Buddhism is following a pagan idol religion....therebye disobeying God if we belong to The Lord as christians.

Ex 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

[/B]

buddhism
unfruitful ??
idoltry ??

u know nothing
buddhisms figures of gold are aspirational
as gods aren't what buddhism is about

the bible shares many of its principles with (some would say borrows from)
buddhism
but you wouldn't know that would you
why because you havn't studied buddhism
as for unfruitful
well i know many people that have been helped by both buddhism and christianity
thats fruit enough

i am quite offended

[Infrazael]

Wow, this JKD is really quite special.

[WuDe]

One should respect all philosophies and religions.Catholosism is a wonderful path which one can, with hard work and prayer, become a Buddhist :)

[B-Rad]

yeah, they knew about it in the 80's but they didn't do all the reasearch that was performed this time around. statistical evidence, carbon dating, etc. they are now pretty sure that this actually is the tomb.
Every single thing I've read on the news so far says the exact opposite :confused:

[Shadow Skill]

SO JDK,

gen 3:16
women suck
this was/is punishment for not obeying and eating from the tree of knowledge

incest IS OK,
it didn't say the had sex
and sometimes even lying is OK, contrary to the 10 commandments
10 commandments happend in exodus ( the next book over)
Gen.17:15-16,
Gen. 12: 13-20 if you would have read the 12th verse it says"Therefore it will happen when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, this is his wife; and they will kill me but they will let you alive. is he not human I know If I had to lie in order to save my life then so be it would you not do the same. it doesn't say it was right it just states the actions of a fearfull man and the rest of these are simuliar situations. Abram is a man not God not Jesus not perfect and again Abram then Mosses 12:13-20 and then 20:2 and again 26:7

Rape is not only OK, but pleasing to your god - 16:1-4 or is it just the monage a trios that god digs?
verse 3 ...and gave her to her husband abram to be his wife... Not held her down and forced himself upon her. and I haven't read anything like all three slept together.

Slavery is A OK
Gen 29:24, 29 maid not slave. now the Bible does mention slaves but their is a difference between the two
Murder (because of rage and jealousy) is also A OK as long as you burn the correct set on entrails 4:8 did Cane not get punished for killing his brother and hey not only murder but torture too 16:6
it says she delt harshly with her, harsh doesn't = torture
Are you OK with ALL of these too?

If you are going to use the Bible study it fully, pray for understanding and the true meaning of the Word, not cut and paste what you will to attempt to make a point:D

[Kung Pao]

If you are going to use the Bible study it fully, pray for understanding and the true meaning of the Word, not cut and paste what you will to attempt to make a point:D

I'm not going to say one cannot combine Eastern and Western viewpoints, but I will say that you have to cut and paste the Bible in order to make any point, because it covers so vast a period of history (4000 years, ostensibly) that morals, customs, and viewpoints change so drastically throughout its scope.

I'm not a fan of Christianity, but I'm not going to say some sort of symbiosis is not possible. It's probably not a good idea, but it's still possible.

Any warrior art can be encompassed by an outside morality. I've always preferred the Grecian/Roman morality (excepting the man-boy love:D ) over Chinese morality. In Chinese custom, its is common to self-efface, or show humility--often for nothing more than show, out of politeness. In the west, we've inherited a tradition that says what it means, and teaches self-worth, self-esteem, and self-confidence, and still honors elders. In that way, I consider it more honest.(although, concerning elders: retirement homes do negate that--as the child says--sorry, I have my own life to live, I can't take care of you...after that parent probably sacrifice two decades of its life taking care of the child.....Where's the gratitude? So sad:( ...but indicitive of changing western morality today).

The Stoics turned out excellent warriors, and some excellent philosophers. And Stoic resolve is somewhat akin to Buddhist resolve, in some aspects. We study warrior arts. I think we have a lot to learn from every warrior culture.

BTW, 300 kicked some major ass.:D

[Shadow Skill]

I'm not going to say one cannot combine Eastern and Western viewpoints, but I will say that you have to cut and paste the Bible in order to make any point, because it covers so vast a period of history (4000 years, ostensibly) that morals, customs, and viewpoints change so drastically throughout its scope.

What I ment by cut and paste was to pull only that parts you wanted to use as opposed to the whole scripture. Kind of like what women do when you argue " you said bla bla bla when what was really said had more to it and they hear only what they want.

[GeneChing]

Any true art has its spirituality. Good to see Kung Fu resonating with the Christian faith.


The spiritual discipline of kung fu (http://www.christianchronicle.org/article/the-spiritual-discipline-of-kung-fu)
Harding Bible professor uses Chinese martial art to teach students focus, peace and integrity.
Joshua Johnson | The Christian Chronicle
November 2016

http://www.christianchronicle.org/November%202016%20print%20edition/p20_kungfu1_1116.jpg?Action=thumbnail&Width=400&algorithm=proportional
PHOTO BY BRITTNEY GARRINGER
Bible professor Kevin Youngblood, center, teaches kung fu to ministry students Graeme Gastineau and Matt Wilcox.

SEARCY, Ark. — The room is dimly lit and quiet. Half of the overhead lights are on, throwing flickering shadows against the back wall.
The teacher watches from a low stance, legs spread wide, arms crossed. Opposite him are two students, palms outstretched, eyes narrowed to slits.
“Remember to breathe,” the teacher says. The students exhale, audibly, as one, and then straighten, allowing their arms to float up, hands becoming fists, heads tilting back. They raise their right knees in a concurrent motion. The pose is bird-like.
“Now we turn, make a crane beak, and then out,” the teacher says.
“This is making my hip sore,” one of the students says between breaths.
The teacher’s response: “Good!”
The teacher, Kevin Youngblood, shares the Gospel with his students by day as an associate professor of Bible and ministry for Harding University, a nearly 6,000-student school associated with Churches of Christ.
By late afternoon, he teaches kung fu — a Chinese martial art that emphasizes patience and energy — at Impact 360, a Searcy nonprofit that offers training in martial arts, tutoring and mentoring for the community.
Youngblood was nine when he was introduced to kung fu. Growing up in Tampa, Fla., he lacked the athleticism of his peers in fourth grade, so his father — concerned for his son’s wellbeing and safety — enrolled him in a judo class at a community center.
It wasn’t his forte. At age ten, he moved to a slightly smaller room across the hall, where a man named Mr. Geary taught kung fu. Unlike judo, which focuses on holds and throws, kung fu offered a broad spectrum of self-defense, Youngblood said.
Kevin Youngblood helps Matt Wilcox with proper kung fu technique.One of the students, Matt Wilcox, turns sharply and scoops his hand close to the ground, then plants and kicks from the hip. His tennis shoes squeak on the linoleum floor. The second student, Graeme Gastineau, does likewise a few seconds later.
It is a gong li quan form, or “power fist,” involving a sequence of strong attacks primarily from the upper body.
“Is the fist in the chamber at this point?” Wilcox asks. His teacher nods and moves a bit closer, deftly demonstrating the transitional hand placements from a mabu stance to gumbo. Gastineau, meanwhile, turns and attacks with an outward-facing palm strike — accidentally striking the teacher above the elbow.
“I am sorry, I am so sorry,” he says.
‘I guess this has always been my nature, but when I get into something like this, I really study it,” Youngblood said. “So I read. I read everything I could get my hands on — the origins of kung fu, the different styles of kung fu. I was trying to figure out exactly what I was being taught. But it was just never clear to me. It looked like what I was learning … was not a pure, traditional style of kung fu.”
He later enrolled at the Wah Lum Kung Fu Temple in Orlando, Fla. He became a student of Pui Chan — the kung fu grandmaster who started the Wah Lum program. Chan has been featured on the Discovery Channel and in martial arts magazines.
“He was the real deal,” Youngblood said.
Youngblood continued practicing kung fu while he attended Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tenn., from 1987 to 1991. He earned bachelor’s and graduate degrees in Old Testament theology and doctrinal interpretation. He married his wife, Becky, in 1994 and had his first child, Karissa, in 1996. He earned a doctorate from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in 2004.
While kung fu has roots in Eastern faith, many Americans regard it as an athletic pastime, Youngblood said. But it has a mental component that students can witness — and experience — as spiritual in nature.
Some Christians may see this as a conflict of interests, but Youngblood seeks to ground his instruction of kung fu in ways that complement the teachings of Jesus, with emphasis on biblical virtues such as focus, peace and integrity.
“To participate in anything cultural … we have to be thoughtful and critical about how we do it, so that we do it in a way that is true to our Christian convictions,” Youngblood said. “And I approach kung fu the same way I approach going to the movies. I am very selective about what I see, for my own sake and for the sake of my children. But, I don’t feel like I should avoid the movie theater altogether simply because they show some bad movies.”
When Youngblood teaches students at Harding, he places a strong emphasis on mental discipline — similar to the meditative state that permeates much of Chinese and Japanese culture.
One fundamental difference between Western and Eastern medicine, Youngblood said, is that one’s mental state and one’s physical state are intimately interconnected.
“I think the Bible teaches this,” Youngblood said. “Think of the psalmist who said that when he did not confess his sins, his body wasted away.” (Psalm 32:3)
Youngblood’s students, Gastineau and Wilcox, are both Bible and ministry majors at Harding. Wilcox said he knew little to nothing about kung fu before enrolling in Youngblood’s lessons. Gastineau’s father went to Lipscomb University with Youngblood, and the two men studied kung fu together.
“I guess I wanted to live through the legacy,” Gastineau said with a laugh.
Both students, sweaty and breathless, relax into an upright stance, hands slowly falling to their sides.
“Don’t stop breathing,” Youngblood says. “Lesson is over; breathing continues.”
Gastineau wipes the sweat from his forehead. “Tough one today,” he says, forcing himself to take deep breaths.
His teacher’s response: “Good!”
In Youngblood’s lessons, the teacher often relates the physical discipline of kung fu to the study of Scripture, Gastineau said. In the same way that martial arts students strive for discipline over the limitations of their mind and body, Christians strive for discipline in prayer and in exegetical studies, explaining and interpreting God’s Word.
“We practice these forms and learn these moves so that, when danger arises, it is second nature to do what we’ve been doing,” Gastineau said. “It should be the same with our Christian walk.”
Youngblood said that, ultimately, kung fu was founded and practiced as a tool to maintain health, in the service of rigorous meditation.
“By balancing physical and spiritual health and by recognizing the connection between the two, you will attain health benefits, and you will discover a sense of control over your own body and mind,” Youngblood said.
“After that, it is up to you to decide what to do with that. Whether that enhanced control is used for Buddhist virtues or Christian virtues, or to hurt someone, or to plow a field — that is up to you.”
WEBSITE: impact360online.com

[mooyingmantis]

If you have read my latest thread on FeemonOng's Saved Formula's you knowmthat I love the Southern Sytems of the Martial Arts....but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.

Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .:D

I am a born-again believer...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.

JD

My school, Mantis Masters Academy, in North Canton, Ohio. Send me a private message if you are interested.

[GeneChing]

I'm bummed that the photo link is broken.


Pastor teaches martial arts discipline (https://keysnews.com/article/story/pastor-teaches-martial-arts-discipline/)
By Theresa Java Free Press Staff
September 5, 2018
Theresa Java/Free Press

Theresa Java/Free Press Randy Rapozo Jr. takes takes his turn kicking the shield.

KEY LARGO — Pastor Eric Fisher directed about a half dozen children last Thursday to do hamstring stretches before they took turns delivering roundhouse kicks to a padded strike shield.

The Lighthouse on the Rock Assemblies of God Church transforms into a pocket-size dojang three times a week for both kids and adults interested in learning self-defense with a focus on Tang Soo Do, a Korean martial art that borrows fighting principles from karate and teaches respect. Fisher, the church’s lead pastor, easily transitions into sonsaeng, the Korean equivalent of sensei.

The Tang So Do tradition might best be recognized in the work of well-known martial artist and actor Chuck Norris, who showcased his master skills in “Walker, Texas Ranger,” a TV series that ran through the 1990s.

Students need not be a part of the church congregation to attend the classes, and most aren’t, according to Fisher.

“This is for the whole community,” he said. “It’s a way for people to practice courage, honor and perseverance. It’s based on principles that teach kids to be accountable, to do what they say they’re going to do — to help out mom and dad a little more. Martial arts gives people self-confidence.”

Fisher said his classes also incorporate taekwondo, boxing, grappling and arnis, the Filipino martial arts using a baton.

The little church has an arsenal of wood boards, a life-size grappling dummy to spar and wrestle with, a kickboxing bag, batons, bow staffs and more to be used for student practice.

Last week, the rapt students tiptoed their way through target circles on the mat before blocking Fisher’s sparring pool noodle and dropkicking a shield held by Fisher’s son, Zach.

“There’s varying levels of student attention spans,” Fisher said. “Some have short-bursts here and there but this is a Crock-Pot approach rather than cooking with a microwave. Some kids will come and go, but the true way takes perseverance.”

The classes are offered to ages 6 and up, but Fisher said that it is determined on a case-by-case basis. Younger ones attending with older siblings are often invited to participate.

“It’s funny to see when the younger sibling pays more attention,” said Fisher’s wife, Janeen. “They come and stand in the back and they’re as young as 3 to 4 years old, and they pay attention and are really good at it.”

Fisher learned the art about six years ago the same way he teaches his students now.

“It’s a tiered discipline or system. Everything is earned, belt-by-belt,” he said.

The adult classes run in six- or eight-week sessions, focusing on a different skill each session. Anyone can join at any time and be able to jump in, according to Janeen.

The group will do exercises in being alert to surroundings then go on to cover quick deflective sequences.

“People need to first be comfortable saying something when their personal space is being invaded and then defend themselves,” Fisher said. “We have exercises where I’ll block the exit and approach them. They have to find a way out and that may be with body language and by using hand gestures that appear defenseless but aren’t.”

“Teaching self-defense is a pressure test to help people identify situations that they’re not comfortable with and how to respond to them.”

Enrolling students should wear comfortable clothing, and set short- and longterm discipline goals

Lighthouse on the Rock offers its classes based on donations. Its youth martial arts classes are 5:30 p.m. Monday and Thursday, and at 11 a.m. Saturday, following a 10:15 a.m. adult self-defense class for ages 13 and up. The church is located at 99.3, oceanside. For more information, call Fisher at 305-451-6212 or visit lighthousekeylargo.com.

tjava@keysnews.com

THREADS
Martial Arts & Religion (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49824-Martial-Arts-amp-Religion)
Any Christian Martial Arts Schools? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44645-Any-Christian-Martial-Arts-Schools)