need an honest answer

[ironcu]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

[ironcu]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

[ironcu]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

[ironcu]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

[ironcu]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

[ironcu]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

[Shadow Skill]

The kung fu VS MMA debate. that is a BIG worm can. have fun with this one.
Imo I think 1. somepeople feel they have nothing to prove. 2. some peoples skills really are not as good as they think. 3. others feel the few rules that are in mma will take away from their ability or bag of trick if thats what you wanna call it. Personaly I've never seen any kung fu used in UFC / Pride.

I't seem like it's gonna be a decent converstion. but... well you'll see:D

[GeneChing]

Come on ironcu, the last thing we need is someone to post the same old thing over all the forums. It'd be much better if you just jumped into one of the many CMA vs. MMA flame wars. Don't be such a nooB :rolleyes:

[Jeff Bussey]

Because Kung Fu is too deadly.
:D

Personally, I don't compete because I have no interest. If I did, I wouldn't be at that level of fighting anyways. So as far as competing in the UFC or Pride, those guys are superior atheletes. They're professional fighters. How many professional atheletes do you know?

As far as local MMA tournaments, there are wing chun guys doing them all over the place and some are winning.

We have a guy at our club who has just started fighting and he's had about 3 or 4fights winning them all by knock out in the first round. He took gold in some comp. and then was invited to fight -I think it was in Bermuda- and knocked out 2 guys there.

He's a local guy doing alot of training but nobody has heard of him.

J

[5Animals1Path]

Try not cross posting the same thing in every single section of the forum. That's usually a good way not to get an answer at all.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Working on it.

One of my goals is to eventually train someone to go into the UFC or PRIDE and win!!! (It won't be me - as I'm already 56 years old). But there's more that needs to be said about this...

Firstly - wing chun is PRIMARILY a standup striking/kicking INFIGHTING system...and few wing chun people are willing to recognize that what this means is as follows: MORE LONG RANGE WEAPONRY IS NEEDED. (Which is why I've married some boxing moves and footwork to Traditional Wing Chun principles - as a means of getting to close range effectively - as well as by using some strategies and techniques to achive this end that already exist in TWC).

Secondly - fighting in the clinch with some Thai moves (knees and elbows) is important.

Thirdly - grappling in the clinch and on the ground is also very important (so I cross train in Catch as catch can wrestlng).

Four - training, cardio, strengthening, and conditioning has to be intense - including lots of bag/mitt/shield work.

Five - live hard contact sparring/rolling is a must on a regular basis - against quality opponents and sparring/rolling partners.

There are some people within the wing chun world who are doing these things - but not many, as far as I can tell.

[brucereiter]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

below are some examples of some ufc champs with traditional martial arts backgrounds. even though they all train mma i would think theirbackground would influance what they do ...

george st. pierre
Kyokushin

chuck lidell
Koei-Kan Karate-Do

Anderson Silva
Tae Kwon Do

Andrei Arlovski
Sambo

Hironaka Kuniyoshi
Judo black belt

Gerard Gordeau;
savate black belt,

[NorthernShaolin]

There are many reasons why not. And not everyone who is into CMA end up having the same goal. They may initially start with the same goal but after a number of years of progress, they realize there is more to CMA than just fighting.

Part of the answer is the fact that when one reaches a certain level in any MA, they have nothing to prove to themselves nor to anyone and elect not to enter such events. One realizes that learning CMA is more than just proving that one is able to kick butt. There are qualities that CMA develops and or improves in individuals that are often overlooked such as character building, make oneself a better person, realizing that conflct can be resolved rather than fighting, that winning is not always the right answer.

[GeneChing]

Please note the warning on your sparring partner wanted (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44652) thread.

[Jingwu Man]

Like Jet Li said in Fearless "The true battle is with one's self"
I myself have no reason to enter competitions, and I guess I take after my teacher in that regard. He is probably the most dangerous person I have ever met, but he is also the nicest. He is always smiling, and will walk away rather than fight. After a certain point, you know what you are capable of, and don't need to cross hands anymore, or avoid it to spare others injury.
I guess MMA events are a good proving ground for techniques, but I get lots of fighting in my club where we focus on the aspects of our style.

Edit- I do know of a high level taiji master that is assembling a group of students to train for the UFC. His goal is to have a taiji only fighter win in the UFC, and if you've seen this guy, you can believe it's possible.

[Shaolin Wookie]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA......everyone usually misses the point....

But SDiscool caught it....

Traditional ("true") fighters do compete in the UFC and MMA tournaments. Almost every good fighter has a solid background in a traditional, non-watered down art. They study techniques of other arts to round out what their training misses out on, and to cover personal weaknesses.

But soooooo many MMA guys miss out on that point. Guys like Lidell and everone else are labeled MMA, so they say....I'll go learn MMA. But they're buying their tacos from Chick-Fila, and their burgers from KFC.

If you want to fine-tune your striking, study a traditional striking art. If you want to fine-tune your grappling/throwing, go study a traditional grappling/throwing art. If you want a little bit of this, and a little bit of that (which doesn't add up to much, when the sum is laid out on the table), go to your local MMA school and get bilked out of money by jacks-of-all trades.

You rely on your strengths, and some of the best MMA fighters are far better strikers than grapplers......and they almost always studied traditional arts.......

Is it a coincidence?

Plenty of the Gracies were terrible strikers in their heyday.....do you think they asked other terrible strikers (grapplers) how to strike in order to round out their repertoire?

For those of us not planning to join the UFC anytime soon, we don't really have to deal with lots of grappling or groundfighting, so we don't necessarily train them. Kind of like taking a gun with you on a visit to the Moon.....do you really need it?

Maybe, if an alien happens to come along......but that's a battle I'm fighting in the Kung Fu Forum........props to RD.;)

[Jeong]

I hate to get sucked into this because it's probably been up about a thousand times before, but here's what I suggest:

There are probably a lot of reasons, but I think one of the bigger ones is that most of the MMA going on today puts CMA at a major disadvantage. Here's why:

1 - They favor people with grappling practice. They do this in two ways. The first is they require gloves for everybody. Now don't get me wrong, I think gloves are certainly a good idea, but if you are a striker it's a lot harder to put somebody on the ground when you're punching through a padded glove. Additionally they rule a bunch of strikes illegal: eye gouges, throat attacks, etc. Again I think these are necessary rules, but if your game is striking a big part of your strategy is to use these weak points. If you can't then you're being forced to have a disadvantage.

2 - They also put chinese (Chin Na) grappling at a disadvantage. You can't do any manipulation of 'small joints', which is a major part of Chinese grappling.

Also, if you look back in the day you'll see that many CMA did participate in MMA outside the US. From what I understand Lee Koon Hung and Tat-Mao Wong both dominated Southeast Asian MMA: the rules in these competitions were less slighted against CMA.

[Lipan]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.


"One idea"

The UFC/Pride/MMA worlds are bound by rules or competetive regulations "NOT taking away from the skill of those involved" and exclude one of the most important aspects of CMA's. I would hope that I would never find myself in a situation where this theory was put to the test but for the traditionalist who found him/herself in an altercation where the only choice was to defend... the vital organs are not off limits. Of course this is not an option in competetive sports but if you are asking why the traditional CMA artists of the past have failed in sport fighting I would have to say that you have dismissed one of their most important tools. Attacking the throat, eyes, temples... scratching, biting. (You get the idea).

"Would you limit the western boxer to only using his/her feet in a fight?"

I don't believe that traditional CMA's are equipped for controlled competition or any sport competetion that is not a fight to the death. CMA's are a tool for self betterment and defense, not for restrictive sports.

[msg]

i think theres no kung.fu fighters in ufc because first you have like to fight because its not the money my friend in the states is working his way up he said it dont pay crap but he likes it .i have sparred with him a lot and a few others . and all i have to say is for a real kung.fu artist would be able to beat ufc guys because lets face the truth its not that hard to stop a grappler. thats the real truth

[couch]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.

What martial art do you do?

And why haven't you thought about reppin for the KF clans? Tell us why YOU don't want to represent KF in the MMA world?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[hinokata]

because lets face the truth its not that hard to stop a grappler. thats the real truth

I would have to disagree with you there. If you are up against a good grappler, every single time you strike you put yourself at risk from a grapple of some sort. I'm not saying grappling is better, just pointing out that it's not easy to take anyone that is a master of their art down, regardless if it's grappling or striking.

[NJM]

Edit- I do know of a high level taiji master that is assembling a group of students to train for the UFC. His goal is to have a taiji only fighter win in the UFC, and if you've seen this guy, you can believe it's possible.

Wow, what kind of Tai Chi master would allow his students to flaunt their skills in such a manner?

[Jingwu Man]

I think he is just tired of people saying that TCM can't hold it's own in those competitions. So he's gonna train students to fight MMA with Taiji.

[The Xia]

I think he is just tired of people saying that TCM can't hold it's own in those competitions. So he's gonna train students to fight MMA with Taiji.
If this person or yourself doesn't mind, who is he?

[Samurai Jack]

Banned. Nice one Gene.

[unkokusai]

Wow, what kind of Tai Chi master would allow his students to flaunt their skills in such a manner?



Why not?:confused:

[unkokusai]

and all i have to say is for a real kung.fu artist would be able to beat ufc guys because lets face the truth its not that hard to stop a grappler. thats the real truth



Ah, he makes with the jokes, he does.

[Samurai Jack]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA......everyone usually misses the point....

But SDiscool caught it....

Traditional ("true") fighters do compete in the UFC and MMA tournaments. Almost every good fighter has a solid background in a traditional, non-watered down art. They study techniques of other arts to round out what their training misses out on, and to cover personal weaknesses.

But soooooo many MMA guys miss out on that point. Guys like Lidell and everone else are labeled MMA, so they say....I'll go learn MMA. But they're buying their tacos from Chick-Fila, and their burgers from KFC.

If you want to fine-tune your striking, study a traditional striking art. If you want to fine-tune your grappling/throwing, go study a traditional grappling/throwing art. If you want a little bit of this, and a little bit of that (which doesn't add up to much, when the sum is laid out on the table), go to your local MMA school and get bilked out of money by jacks-of-all trades.

You rely on your strengths, and some of the best MMA fighters are far better strikers than grapplers......and they almost always studied traditional arts.......

Is it a coincidence?

Plenty of the Gracies were terrible strikers in their heyday.....do you think they asked other terrible strikers (grapplers) how to strike in order to round out their repertoire?

For those of us not planning to join the UFC anytime soon, we don't really have to deal with lots of grappling or groundfighting, so we don't necessarily train them. Kind of like taking a gun with you on a visit to the Moon.....do you really need it?

Maybe, if an alien happens to come along......but that's a battle I'm fighting in the Kung Fu Forum........props to RD.;)


Yes, now here is an argument worth listening to. I was down at the local MMA school the other day watching a class. My buddy has studied judo and aikido for many years and he practices there. There's another friend of mine into ninjutsu (don't laugh, he likes it so what the hell). So I asked the ninja guy after the class if this is where he learned to box (I used to box and he's got some mad skills). He told me he trains for that at the boxing gym. Apparently the only people there who only do MMA are the people there for fitness. All the advanced people started elsewhere, and still maintain thier skills. I've gotta say the judo/aikido guy is scary good at grappling. I sort of felt redeemed since I've done judo, boxing, hsing-i and aikido.

Anyhow, I can't think of a single pro MMA guy who hasn't trained in multiple styles with various artists. That's what MMA means, right? Also, apparently the whole "MMA is the best style" idea is totally foreign to these folks. These guys compete too.

[msg]

look i not saying grappling is no good its just for the ring ....famous words it takes to long will not work in real life .lets face it your on the streets you want to end it as fast as you can no time to play around on the ground any kind of MA was not meant to look like the movies or to stand and wait for a punch or a kick to grap

[hinokata]

look i not saying grappling is no good its just for the ring ....famous words it takes to long will not work in real life

I really hope for your sake that you are never involved in a street fight, and especially not against anyone who has had some grappling training. As far as it not working in a "real" fight, I know better. It's saved my butt on at least one occasion, and helped me to avoid fights that were being escalated by the other party (Drunks can be fantastic people :rolleyes: ), as a little pain compliance can "assist" them in seeing the error of their ways.


.lets face it your on the streets you want to end it as fast as you can no time to play around on the ground

Not all grappling has to take you to ground (See: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grapple ). Grappling is not the same as groundfighting. Granted the tournaments make it appear that way (grab -> go to ground -> submit), but there is a large variety of grappling techniques that can be applied while standing, not to mention if you get pinned to a wall/table/whatever. I do agree that groundfighting is should be avoided in a street fight if at all possible just because you never know who just might come up and kick you in the back of the head.


any kind of MA was not meant to look like the movies or to stand and wait for a punch or a kick to grap

That is the point of practice, so that you can seize the opportunities as they arise, same as striking. With striking you need to learn how to get around their defense and pick points that are open to your attacks and then strike them. With grappling, you need to be able to determine if you are most likely going to be able to get that grab and apply your technique. Different focal points, but both require practice, and neither one better than the other.

Something to keep in mind is that striking and grappling both require at least one of the same things, contact. You don't have to have super-human speed in order to get a hold of a hand/leg/arm/shirt/etc. Excluding grappling from your training is going to leave you with some severe holes in your defense.

[bodhitree]

Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard Ban The Tard

[msg]

to hinokata ya i have been in street fights more than a few times and not with drunks so i know what would work . and thats the bascis all ways works the best. i said it before i wouldnt want one of his friends hitting me when iam trying to wrap him up because that would happen nine times out of ten

[hinokata]

to hinokata ya i have been in street fights more than a few times and not with drunks so i know what would work . and thats the bascis all ways works the best. i said it before i wouldnt want one of his friends hitting me when iam trying to wrap him up because that would happen nine times out of ten

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree, and I personally disagree with most of your post because I think that information is flat out wrong. To each his own and good luck to you in any future excurisons you may have.

[imperialtaichi]

...there is a large variety of grappling techniques that can be applied while standing, not to mention if you get pinned to a wall/table/whatever. I do agree that groundfighting is should be avoided in a street fight if at all possible....

...With striking you need to learn how to get around their defense and pick points that are open to your attacks and then strike them. With grappling, you need to be able to determine if you are most likely going to be able to get that grab and apply your technique...



Well said Hinokata, well said.

I have seen enough fights to know that, people involved with the "jump up and down and punch and kick" fights usually ended up with bruises, cuts, bloody noses and usually NOT hospitalized. The most brutal ones usually involve rumbles where multiple people are involved where people are grabbed, pinned, smashed etc where grappling type of skills gives you a better chance to get out of and run.

One of the BJJ instructors where I teach can basically pick you up, turn you upside down and smash you on the ground in a split second while he remains standing. So he may take a couple of hits in the process; but one can survive hits easily, but being slammed on concrete is no fun.

Movies tend to make it looks like it is so easy to knock someone out in one hit (we've all seen Jet Li doing it when faced with multiple attackers), stop an attacker with one stab of the knife, or shoot someone down with one bullet. In reality it is dangerous to have such misconceptions.

So, in my opinion, it is not just "How strong is the punch" that matters. Of course a powerful punch is important, but also how safe, how likely to be countered, how easy to flow into other techniques, etc. To me, the best strike would be one that's protective, powerful, and can be continued into a break/lock and a throw, and gives you the option to run. Sounds too good to be true? No. There are such techniques in Aikido, Tian Style Bagua and of course Tai Chi just to name a few.

Cheers,
John

[kidswarrior]

Like Jet Li said in Fearless "The true battle is with one's self"
I myself have no reason to enter competitions, and I guess I take after my teacher in that regard. He is probably the most dangerous person I have ever met, but he is also the nicest. He is always smiling, and will walk away rather than fight. After a certain point, you know what you are capable of, and don't need to cross hands anymore, or avoid it to spare others injury.

Jingwu Man echoes my feelings: The most dangerous men I've known have been some of the nicest, and slowest to take offense/fight over ego. I practice and teach martial arts to try to be like them: in order to master my own ego and temper, and to help kids do the same. At the same time, it is good to know that street applications are there in an emergency. This is much different from sport fighting, where the object is besting someone else, and dare I say, maybe often for the purpose of feeding the ego.

[Scott R. Brown]

One could just as easily ask why those who compete in MMA don’t compete in combat shooting, quick draw competitions, sword fighting or knife fights. Getting shot, surreptitiously stabbed or clubbed from behind will negate all one's years of training anyway. People train according to their interests and personal goals. Nothing is completely effective in every circumstance. If an individual is measuring his manliness according to his ability to grapple then he may find himself shot, clubbed from behind or gang stomped.

MMA are duels! Duels are NOT accurate facsimiles of real life self-defense situations. That is not to negate the value of grappling skills, but the REAL world is more than the primarily grappling skills displayed in MMA duels. These are tactical wrestling exhibitions where competitors have plenty of time to wear each other down. Much of it is a chess game where competitors don’t have to worry about being stomped in the head by someone else while rolling around on the ground in an otherwise vulnerable position.

Real world duels occur mostly in school where egos and childish attitudes prevail, bar/drunk fights and some peace officer situations. These are the areas where grappling skills are beneficial. Police and Correctional Officers benefit greatly from some experience in grappling, but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.

Train according to the perceived danger you expect to encounter and your personal goals and interests. But also understand that no one can be prepared for every single possible form of attack. If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill. A well devised strategic plan attacks the individual’s weakness, not his strength. Therefore you do not grapple a grappler unless you are clearly superior. Even if you did grapple a grappler it would be a waste of energy when all it takes is some poison, a club from behind, a gun etc.

Most bad guys are not interested in rolling around with you on the ground. They want what you got and they want to get away quickly, or they just want to kill you. Rolling around on the ground wastes time and energy. Any other encounter is most likely motivated by ego and/or substance abuse. A mature individual, aside from Peace Officers, Security Officers and Bouncers will seek to avoid this types of encounter.

In his younger days Rick Avery had a martial arts studio in Santa Barbara CA. It was either kempo or kenpo (I can never keep them straight). Any way, he was also a Sheriff and was known for using excessive force and generally being an a**hole. Eventually he was ambushed by some High School kids with baseball bats who were tired of his attitude. He was a trained martial artist, an officer of the law, carrying a gun, a baton and mace. They sent him to the hospital.

Everyone is vulnerable to a well thought out attack, even MMA’s! Or perhaps especially MMA's because they spend so much time practicing skills that make them vulnerable in REAL life and death situations. Take half the time they train on the ground and devote it to developing evasion skills and gun or knife skills and the time would be better spent.

[msg]

thank you scott.r brown for under standing what i was trying to say .i was not trying to say any thing negative of any art .just replying to the topic street/reality fighting .key word street.i hope i did not offend any body that ws not my intent

[hinokata]

Nothing is completely effective in every circumstance. If an individual is measuring his manliness according to his ability to grapple then he may find himself shot, clubbed from behind or gang stomped.

I believe you are missing my point altogether. I am not advocating grappling as the be-all end-all form of self defense. Nor was I saying that it should be your first form of defense, etc. What I am saying, is that neglecting an area of training such as grappling is going to leave you in a trouble spot if you get grabbed or pinned. Additionally, you can just as easily be clubbed from behind while trying to play the 100% standup game.


MMA are duels! Duels are NOT accurate facsimiles of real life self-defense situations. That is not to negate the value of grappling skills, but the REAL world is more than the primarily grappling skills displayed in MMA duels. These are tactical wrestling exhibitions where competitors have plenty of time to wear each other down. Much of it is a chess game where competitors don’t have to worry about being stomped in the head by someone else while rolling around on the ground in an otherwise vulnerable position.

Do not confuse grappling with groundfighting, as they are not one and the same. I agree 100% that it is a very bad idea to go rolling around on the ground with an opponent in a street fight. Besides all the reasons mentioned in previous posts, you never know what is on the ground, like broken glass, syringes, etc.


... but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.

I'm sorry, but this is just a VERY silly example. First of all, WHY would you be in some sort of gang shoot out to begin with? And if it's because your part of one of the gangs, then chances are you have your own gun. Secondly, you could easily replace grappling with striking, swordsmanship, staff, whatever and still come out badly. It is somewhat like the old saying, never bring a knife to a gun fight.


Train according to the perceived danger you expect to encounter and your personal goals and interests. But also understand that no one can be prepared for every single possible form of attack.

I agree with your above statement but I would like to add that if you are strictly training for sport/comps, then yes, only do what you want to do. If you are training with self-dense in mind, IMO it is very foolish to ignore a very valid part of training, even if you don't/can't see the value of it. It's in the art for a reason.


If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill.

Please define permanently, because that seems to provide a one way ticket to prison.


A well devised strategic plan attacks the individual’s weakness, not his strength. Therefore you do not grapple a grappler unless you are clearly superior. Even if you did grapple a grappler it would be a waste of energy when all it takes is some poison, a club from behind, a gun etc.

You're talking about ways that are potentially lethal, and not too mention will get you thrown in jail. Poison? Another really bad example. We were talking about self-defense, not pre-meditated murder. Using the methods you describe, yes, you defend yourself, but now you spend a nice chunk of time in jail, get a criminal record, and pretty much screw up the rest of your life.


Most bad guys are not interested in rolling around with you on the ground. They want what you got and they want to get away quickly, or they just want to kill you. Rolling around on the ground wastes time and energy. Any other encounter is most likely motivated by ego and/or substance abuse. A mature individual, aside from Peace Officers, Security Officers and Bouncers will seek to avoid this types of encounter.

One could argue that a mature individual will seek to avoid all types of street type encounters. Again, you are confusing grappling and groundfighting. I would also argue that officers/bouncers will try to avoid that encounter as well, but they may have to deal with it because of their position to protect the public.

[kidswarrior]

Quote:
... but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.

I'm sorry, but this is just a VERY silly example. First of all, WHY would you be in some sort of gang shoot out to begin with?
__________

Actually, my work teaching many gang kids has put me in this situation more than once. The reaon I've come out the other side? Just wasn't a bullet with my name on it on those days. Also, have always (17 years) tried to help these kids (treat with dignity and some humility), so maybe a small measure of respect was returned to me as I know on a couple of occasions, they did not shoot at rivals who were in my proximity because I was standing there.

__________
Quote:
MMA are duels! Duels are NOT accurate facsimiles of real life self-defense situations. That is not to negate the value of grappling skills, but the REAL world is more than the primarily grappling skills displayed in MMA duels.

__________

Agree! And not just MMA, but all sparring--not that it doesn't have a place, but that place is not too profitable for preparation for the street.

[hinokata]

Actually, my work teaching many gang kids has put me in this situation more than once. The reaon I've come out the other side? Just wasn't a bullet with my name on it on those days. Also, have always (17 years) tried to help these kids (treat with dignity and some humility), so maybe a small measure of respect was returned to me as I know on a couple of occasions, they did not shoot at rivals who were in my proximity because I was standing there.

I stand corrected. I really hope you reach the majority of kids you work with. I know first hand that respect goes a VERY long ways with gang members, so you may just be right about them not shooting at rivals near you. I have found that many times people tend to forget the human aspect of gang members and automatically lump them under thug and treat them like animals. While some of them are violent by choice, many of them are "forced" into it by either peer pressure, family ties, the sense of belonging, revenge, or just hoping to increase their odds of survival. Good luck with your work.


.... returning to the topic now ......

[SanSoo Student]

I must say that in relation to "real" street fighting and how well CMA works against opponents of your size or larger...the real answer is who knows. There is nothing that can prepare you for that first fight that changes your life, the one fight that you will be scared ****less, the first fight is going to be your worst fight as most of us only train for the situation but are never ready to experience. I can discuss theory and effective/ineffective physics/dynamics of certain styles/MMA/Kung Fu or what ever...but I am not going to.

The simple answer that others have concluded, is will you get the hit/strike/grapple nescessary to prevent a person from taking your life. I don't know, I continue to train to never encounter another situation like that as one really learns martial arts and fight to really not fight because it is a scary and brutal thing: the real fight when you feel your life in jeopardy, I would do all I can to kill/cripple/maim the attack as fast as I can (and most arts teach this more or less). There is a big factor that any art cannot really prepare a person for which is luck. The luck of the situation, what if you got unlucky and didn't get your strike in or if there was another person that comes behind you, a gun involved, or knife pulled out suddenly. As luck can work against you, it can work in your favor and the training you have done prompted you to connect your strikes/techniques to defend and attack your aggressor. It all matters on luck and the first hit in my opinion. I train in a Kung Fu/Muay Thai hybrid and make sure to cover the basics everyday, as I believe the basics of most arts are the same: thats what saves you in real life basics...the thing teachers made you practice until you can do them in your sleep.

[kidswarrior]

I stand corrected. I really hope you reach the majority of kids you work with. I know first hand that respect goes a VERY long ways with gang members, so you may just be right about them not shooting at rivals near you. I have found that many times people tend to forget the human aspect of gang members and automatically lump them under thug and treat them like animals. While some of them are violent by choice, many of them are "forced" into it by either peer pressure, family ties, the sense of belonging, revenge, or just hoping to increase their odds of survival. Good luck with your work.


.... returning to the topic now ......

Thanks, Hinokata. Most people don't 'get it' as you obviously do. Didn't mean to take us off topic.

[kidswarrior]

Please define permanently, because that seems to provide a one way ticket to prison.



You're talking about ways that are potentially lethal, and not too mention will get you thrown in jail. Poison? Another really bad example. We were talking about self-defense, not pre-meditated murder. Using the methods you describe, yes, you defend yourself, but now you spend a nice chunk of time in jail, get a criminal record, and pretty much screw up the rest of your life.



One could argue that a mature individual will seek to avoid all types of street type encounters. Again, you are confusing grappling and groundfighting. I would also argue that officers/bouncers will try to avoid that encounter as well, but they may have to deal with it because of their position to protect the public.


And I meant (before I ran out of time--work was calling) to say YES, YES, YES to these sentiments. Personally, for example, I am very careful to build in to my MA instruction that we must live with the consequences of 'winning' a fight. And if we aren't very, very careful, that could mean jail, prison, catching a deadly disease by swapping bodily fluids (blood, saliva) with the 'loser', and civil suits when he or his family later claims we cheated because we've studied the Arts.

I've never regretted walking away and checking my ego, but almost always regretted the times I did not (mostly in the past, now--but with road rage, 'roid rage, etc., there are always plenty of new choices to make: to feed my ego, or to walk away from someone living on the edge).

[imperialtaichi]

If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill.



Yes. Miyamoto Musashi was undefeated not just through his physical techniques, but his strategies.

A good fighter can only defeat 10 enemies, a good strategist can defeat a whole army.

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi hinokata,

I believe you are missing my point altogether. I am not advocating grappling as the be-all end-all form of self defense. Nor was I saying that it should be your first form of defense, etc. What I am saying, is that neglecting an area of training such as grappling is going to leave you in a trouble spot if you get grabbed or pinned. Additionally, you can just as easily be clubbed from behind while trying to play the 100% standup game.

Actually I was not directly addressing your post, but making general comments. I actually agree with you here.

Do not confuse grappling with groundfighting, as they are not one and the same. I agree 100% that it is a very bad idea to go rolling around on the ground with an opponent in a street fight. Besides all the reasons mentioned in previous posts, you never know what is on the ground, like broken glass, syringes, etc.

Thank you for the admonition. I do not confuse the two, but I believe many individuals consider grappling a strictly ground fighting circumstance. It is to those people my comments were directed.

Me:

... but try taking your MMA and grappling skills to a gang shoot out and see how long you will survive.


You:

I'm sorry, but this is just a VERY silly example. First of all, WHY would you be in some sort of gang shoot out to begin with? And if it's because your part of one of the gangs, then chances are you have your own gun. Secondly, you could easily replace grappling with striking, swordsmanship, staff, whatever and still come out badly. It is somewhat like the old saying, never bring a knife to a gun fight.

I was using hyperbole here to illustrate extremely dangerous situations with seemingly overwhelming odds. The underlying point of my post was that MMA, specifically grappling, is not the “be all” of self-defense. This is the implication intended by many who ask the question underlying the original post of this thread.

In the real world fights are not always duels with a context of rules to guide them. Commonly, it is he who is the most brutal first that often wins the fight. Having said that and also having made the previous comments I have: I knew a man years ago who was clubbed in the head from behind with a baseball bat. This was a very a very good strategy; however he turned around a trashed his assailant. So no principle, tactic, strategy or method works in all circumstances.

Me:

If one needed to take someone out permanently strategy is more than important than skill.


You:

Please define permanently, because that seems to provide a one way ticket to prison.

Of course it does, and herein lies the problem for civilized persons. While the civilized care about the consequences of their actions, socio-paths commonly do not. While they are acting brutally to you, you are attempting to defend yourself without incurring legal ramifications. This puts the civilized person at a distinct disadvantage.

Permanently here can mean: to the point where you and/or others are no longer in danger. It includes: to kill, to maim, to incapacitate or to restrain, according to the circumstances and individual ability. It applies to the civilized and the brutal person. If you REALLY want to win in combat, then being the most brutal the soonest is your best bet!

Overwhelming brutality is a strategic principle. It is an amoral principle from the perspective of simply winning the altercation. If your goal is to win then the most brutal the soonest has the highest percentage opportunity for success under most circumstances. I am not proposing this principle, I am merely stating it as a principle of fighting that observation and experience has made apparent. A simple example would be Mike Tyson in his early years. He was the most brutal the soonest in his fights and the fights were won quickly and decisively. However, this principle applies to all forms of combat, from duels to battles between armies, from our historical period to ancient battles. It is a well known and applied principle used to increase the opportunity for success in combat.

Me:

A well devised strategic plan attacks the individual’s weakness, not his strength. Therefore you do not grapple a grappler unless you are clearly superior. Even if you did grapple a grappler it would be a waste of energy when all it takes is some poison, a club from behind, a gun etc.

You:

You're talking about ways that are potentially lethal, and not too mention will get you thrown in jail. Poison? Another really bad example. We were talking about self-defense, not pre-meditated murder. Using the methods you describe, yes, you defend yourself, but now you spend a nice chunk of time in jail, get a criminal record, and pretty much screw up the rest of your life.

Again hyperbole used to illustrate that unexpected and brutal methods are the most efficient. Don’t underestimate your enemy is the point here and don’t underestimate your opportunities to overcome your opponent using unconventional means. Don’t underestimate the brutality or unexpected means to which a socio-path is willing to use in an encounter. Sociopaths don’t care about going to prison. This is their strength. You may be afraid to go to prison, this is your weakness.

I am not advocating these methods. However, a careful study of strategy and tactics requires us to consider them. One of the reasons Samurai hated Ninjas so much was because the Ninja only cared about winning, not winning according to some principle of fair play. Therefore, they would not meet force with force unless it was absolutely necessary. Many Samurai restricted their efficiency and ability by conforming to a specific code of conduct in combat. To the mind of many Samurai the Ninja was a cheater because he didn’t play by the Samurai’s preconceived notions of fair combat. This was the Samurai’s weakness and the Ninja’s strength.

Historically speaking, it is those who have used tactics the enemy has not considered and therefore not considered the need to defend against that have been the superior generals, Alexander, Julius Caesar and Genghis Khan to name a few. And of course Miyamoto Musashi as has been mentioned by Dr. John. Hi John! :)

One could argue that a mature individual will seek to avoid all types of street type encounters. Again, you are confusing grappling and groundfighting. I would also argue that officers/bouncers will try to avoid that encounter as well, but they may have to deal with it because of their position to protect the public.

Of course they will attempt to avoid going to the ground, however the ground is used to control an uncooperative person. I worked in the CA Dept of Corrections for 12 years. ALL uncooperative inmates are taken to the ground. Not most, not many ALL!! If an inmate wants to take out an Officer their first plan of attack will ALWAYS be surreptitious. Not sometimes, not many times ALL THE TIME!!

My perspective on this topic comes from my years working around, talking to, and observing prison inmates. These are the sociopaths that will kill for a dime and rape your dead body. They do not play by the rules of civilized combat. They play to WIN!! This MUST be considered when one is talking about MMA or any other type of self-defense system as the ultimate means or even the best means available. An idiot with no MMA experience and a gun or a baseball bat can easily neutralized the toughest, meanest, best trained person around. No method is the best. It is the best according to a specific context. Change the context and all the years of training, sweating and thinking you are a bad dude can be snuffed out in a second. The only thing left on your face is an amazed disbelief that you could be taken out so easily.

These comments are not addressed to you specifically, but to anyone who thinks that any method of self-defense is the best or that some other method is useless. It does not take any self-defense/fighting experience to take a person out. All it takes is a strategic and devious mind. It is important to keep this in mind if a person is attempting to fight or train to address their feelings of insecurity or boost their ego. It is my impression that many who want to poo poo traditional arts for not competing in MMA tournaments have a misguided impression of the realities of life concerning real life combat and the extent to which sociopaths will go to hurt you and take what is yours. So my purpose here has been to bring some real life into the discussion.

[hinokata]

Actually I was not directly addressing your post, but making general comments. I actually agree with you here.

My mistake. :)


Thank you for the admonition. I do not confuse the two, but I believe many individuals consider grappling a strictly ground fighting circumstance. It is to those people my comments were directed.

Apparently, my mistake again.


I was using hyperbole here to illustrate extremely dangerous situations with seemingly overwhelming odds. The underlying point of my post was that MMA, specifically grappling, is not the “be all” of self-defense. This is the implication intended by many who ask the question underlying the original post of this thread.

Fair enough. I'm sure those that know you understood your point, however since I am new I took your post at face value.


Of course it does, and herein lies the problem for civilized persons. While the civilized care about the consequences of their actions, socio-paths commonly do not. While they are acting brutally to you, you are attempting to defend yourself without incurring legal ramifications. This puts the civilized person at a distinct disadvantage.

I agree.



Again hyperbole used to illustrate that unexpected and brutal methods are the most efficient. Don’t underestimate your enemy is the point here and don’t underestimate your opportunities to overcome your opponent using unconventional means. Don’t underestimate the brutality or unexpected means to which a socio-path is willing to use in an encounter. Sociopaths don’t care about going to prison. This is their strength. You may be afraid to go to prison, this is your weakness.

I understand your point, but I don't personally agree that not wanting to go to prison is a weakness. I think it will re-enforce non-lethal and more humane techniques up and to the point that it comes where it is either you or him. When all of your other options have been removed, IMO, then and only then should you consider lethal and/or crippling techniques. If you start of with the pure brutality that the sociopath is most likely using, what really makes you any different than him?


I am not advocating these methods. However, a careful study of strategy and tactics requires us to consider them. One of the reasons Samurai hated Ninjas so much was because the Ninja only cared about winning, not winning according to some principle of fair play. Therefore, they would not meet force with force unless it was absolutely necessary. Many Samurai restricted their efficiency and ability by conforming to a specific code of conduct in combat. To the mind of many Samurai the Ninja was a cheater because he didn’t play by the Samurai’s preconceived notions of fair combat. This was the Samurai’s weakness and the Ninja’s strength.

Yes, Ninjas were generally viewed as cowards and honorless by the Samurai due the win at any cost using any means available tactics the ninja would use (ex: poison under the fingernails or on their blades, ambushing, traps, etc). One of the tenets still practiced in ninjutsu is that any time there is contact from your enemy, it could be fatal (for the reasons stated above), so many of the techniques dodge/evade attacks instead of purely block.


My perspective on this topic comes from my years working around, talking to, and observing prison inmates. These are the sociopaths that will kill for a dime and rape your dead body. They do not play by the rules of civilized combat. They play to WIN!! This MUST be considered when one is talking about MMA or any other type of self-defense system as the ultimate means or even the best means available.

A very good point.


An idiot with no MMA experience and a gun or a baseball bat can easily neutralized the toughest, meanest, best trained person around. No method is the best. It is the best according to a specific context. Change the context and all the years of training, sweating and thinking you are a bad dude can be snuffed out in a second. The only thing left on your face is an amazed disbelief that you could be taken out so easily.

Another good point, although I would disagree that the idiot with the baseball bat could easily take out a well trained martial artist (assuming the martial artist was not caught unawares). I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen, just that it wouldn't be easy.


These comments are not addressed to you specifically, but to anyone who thinks that any method of self-defense is the best or that some other method is useless.

Understood. :)


It does not take any self-defense/fighting experience to take a person out. All it takes is a strategic and devious mind. It is important to keep this in mind if a person is attempting to fight or train to address their feelings of insecurity or boost their ego. It is my impression that many who want to poo poo traditional arts for not competing in MMA tournaments have a misguided impression of the realities of life concerning real life combat and the extent to which sociopaths will go to hurt you and take what is yours. So my purpose here has been to bring some real life into the discussion.

While I do not agree with you completely, you did bring some very good and valid points to the discussion and I for one, appreciate the debate. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi hinokata,

“Not wanting to go to prison” is a weakness tactically, not morally. Tactically speaking someone who is not willing to risk prison will limit the types of responses they are willing to use in an altercation. They will be controlling their actions so as to not go to far. They are limited by their self-restraint. So while you are trying to use contoled methods against your opponent, he could be using every trick in the book. This puts you at a distinct disadvantage and is thus a weakness when looked at from the point of view of winning safely and efficiently.

“Idiot” in this case is an expression not intended to mean, “one with low intelligence”, but “one who wants to hurt you”. If he is a sociopath with an amoral, devious and tactical mind he would not fight a trained MA face to face. Remember my comment about inmates using surreptitious means to attack Officers? Well this applies to attacking other inmates/people as well. The purpose of the sociopath is to succeed at their goal with the minimum amount of risk to themselves while maximizing their opportunity for success. Face to face encounters are NOT tactically efficient. Remember the context of the rest of my post, hide and hit from behind, or some other devious, underhanded means. So the idiot with a baseball bat would attack from behind and perhaps use other tactics to increase his advantage as well.

You see many people think of fights in terms of a duel; Mano e mano according to some kind of rules. They usually don’t have insight into the fact that they have these preconceived notions of how a fight should or will be conducted and this is a weakness. Even today’s NHB fights have rules and occur according to a fixed context. These venues tend to fix in the mind of the novice a specific pattern or context a fight will or should follow. This is a weakness when it comes to fighting an experienced sociopath whose only rule is to win. He will fight without remorse and without fear of the consequences. This is a strength or asset when it comes to combat. A fight with a real criminal/sociopath would wake up these novices to the REAL world of combat where the opponent goes balls out to hurt, maim or kill you without feeling any remorse, using any and all means possible, and will fight NOT according to any fixed context.

[kidswarrior]

Scott,

I have a much better understanding of where you're coming from after this explanation. And agree with most of the underlying principles, now that I know what your intentions were. Thanks for going the extra mile to clear it up.

PS: I work with teens some of whom are at the critical point in their lives which will determine whether they will become career criminals (and so more 'clients' for Dept of Corrections) or productive citizens. Deal daily with some of the behaviors/mindsets you mentioned.:eek:

--KW

[hinokata]

Hello Scott,


“Not wanting to go to prison” is a weakness tactically, not morally. Tactically speaking someone who is not willing to risk prison will limit the types of responses they are willing to use in an altercation. They will be controlling their actions so as to not go to far. They are limited by their self-restraint. So while you are trying to use contoled methods against your opponent, he could be using every trick in the book. This puts you at a distinct disadvantage and is thus a weakness when looked at from the point of view of winning safely and efficiently.

I understood what you meant in this regard, but I still do not completely agree. You make your point well, but we just have differing opinions on this matter.


“Idiot” in this case is an expression not intended to mean, “one with low intelligence”, but “one who wants to hurt you”.

This was understood. ;)


If he is a sociopath with an amoral, devious and tactical mind he would not fight a trained MA face to face. Remember my comment about inmates using surreptitious means to attack Officers? Well this applies to attacking other inmates/people as well. The purpose of the sociopath is to succeed at their goal with the minimum amount of risk to themselves while maximizing their opportunity for success. Face to face encounters are NOT tactically efficient. Remember the context of the rest of my post, hide and hit from behind, or some other devious, underhanded means. So the idiot with a baseball bat would attack from behind and perhaps use other tactics to increase his advantage as well.

While this is a very good point, I would like to say that the MA should be aware of his surroundings at all times. I know that when I go anywhere I constantly scan for any type of potential threat, escape routes, etc, which should greatly reduce the chances of being caught unawares from behind. I would expect that any MA would do the same. Again, I am not saying that it would not happen, just that it helps even the deck in a manner of speaking.


.... This is a weakness when it comes to fighting an experienced sociopath whose only rule is to win. He will fight without remorse and without fear of the consequences. This is a strength or asset when it comes to combat. A fight with a real criminal/sociopath would wake up these novices to the REAL world of combat where the opponent goes balls out to hurt, maim or kill you without feeling any remorse, using any and all means possible, and will fight NOT according to any fixed context.

Well said.

[lonewolf]

i couldn't agree more. if someone is coming after you or you find yourself surprised by the "idiot" MA won't play a role at first. it would be fight or flight. when you find yourself back in some kind of control or you know what is going on training then can come into play. but over all avoid the idiot.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Most of the people that choose to fight in the ring are usually more athletic and have a naturally aggressive nature. That is a natural fact. They are far from being your average person. These types are going to be difficult to whip, even for someone else like them. The average person would stand little chance. Again, most of the martial arts do not lend themselves to such exploits. Rules, and a pair of gloves would stop most of them. It would all boil down to using brute strength and clubbing your opponent to the mat. I have watched all the more noted fighters and I have not seen what I would deem as skill by any means. They were fast, strong, and fearless. But that is far from showing skill.
Most of the people you find on these forums are armchair kung fu fighters, and have never had a fight. Most never will. They watch too much TV or something. All that jumping around and arm flapping will only get your butt kicked by a decent street fighter. And most of the fighting systems are too dependent upon the practitioner being extremely fit. This is not the case for the average person that might need to defend themselves one day. I find that Jujitsu will make defending yourself easier if you are small and frail. And Wing Chun will prepare you to fight and to enter into your jujitsu technique. If you are strong you can do it even better. I have been doing Wing Chun for near 50 years now, and Jujitsu for over 40 years. I have over 600 variations of jujitsu technique, and my hands are extremely hard. I have trained them for inflicting grave injury. But, I would not put on a pair of gloves and crawl into a ring with some of these fighters mentioned. It would be like going to a knife fight and leaving your knife at home.

[Scott R. Brown]

I work with teens some of whom are at the critical point in their lives which will determine whether they will become career criminals (and so more 'clients' for Dept of Corrections) or productive citizens. Deal daily with some of the behaviors/mindsets you mentioned.:eek:

Hi kidswarrior,

I deeply respect your efforts with teens. I have had numerous conversations with young inmates who regretted their gang affiliations and were troubled over their impending parole fearing falling in with the same crowd. It is important that these young men have somewhere to go that will help them develop healthy characteristics. Good Luck!! You have my admiration!:)

[kidswarrior]

Hi kidswarrior,

I deeply respect your efforts with teens. I have had numerous conversations with young inmates who regretted their gang affiliations and were troubled over their impending parole fearing falling in with the same crowd. It is important that these young men have somewhere to go that will help them develop healthy characteristics. Good Luck!! You have my admiration!:)

Thanks, Scott. And back atcha'. People are constantly trying to get me to transfer to work at juvenile hall, but being one step removed (getting them before they go in or just as they get out) gives me more of a chance to engender hope in my young charges, that they can still change and make the right choices. My hat's off to you for working in a very difficult environment, and I can picture those conversations you mention. Hang in there--I know you're making a difference. I also believe that for both of us, the study of martial arts bolsters our ability to keep going in the work.
--kidswarrior

[Bagua8]

The reason why Kung Fu masters don't fight in the MMA is because 1:They don't need to fight for money(that's what the ufc is), they already make money teaching and that takes up all their time. 2:their too old and the ufc probably won't let them fight 3:they live in china and are to far away from the ufc and don't want to fly for 10+ hours to get their.

But the main reason is because in order to qualify for the ufc you have to be a well rounded fighter skilled in these three categories: ground n' pound, submission, and hand to hand.

most kung fu maters only qualify for the last two.

[shaolin_allan]

Unfortunately, most people relate what they see in movies and UFC to real fighting. Nothing could be ****her from the truth. Some people do martial arts for demonstrations, some do it for semi contact sparring tournaments, and some do it for ring fighting like UFC.
The truth is real kung fu is meant to help people and only fight if absolutely required to. In a good school light to full contact sparring is practiced with or without gear which allows the students to practice as close to real fighting as possible without the chance of getting severely injured.
Many people who practice kung-fu for the combat side do exercises and training to prepare themselves for real fighting, and do not waste their time on such a confined type of combat with so many rules.
Many UFC fighters don't do it to prove themselves as good fighters, they do it for the money mainly and for the fame also. If they originally started with traditional ways they have now moved onto more type of training like a boxer. Many UFC fighters would do horrible in a real fight because thats not what they train for.
Just like many masters would do poor in UFC because they do not train in a way where they would be used to the confinement of UFC rules.

[SevenStar]

Unfortunately, most people relate what they see in movies and UFC to real fighting. Nothing could be ****her from the truth. Some people do martial arts for demonstrations, some do it for semi contact sparring tournaments, and some do it for ring fighting like UFC.
The truth is real kung fu is meant to help people and only fight if absolutely required to. In a good school light to full contact sparring is practiced with or without gear which allows the students to practice as close to real fighting as possible without the chance of getting severely injured.
Many people who practice kung-fu for the combat side do exercises and training to prepare themselves for real fighting, and do not waste their time on such a confined type of combat with so many rules.

1. training in the kwoon with people you are familiar with is NOT realistic, especially when it's only light to medium contact.

2. full contact with pads is more realistic than light contact without them

3. in competition, you are facing someone who WANTS to knock you out. This is more real than semi contact kwoon sparring with a friend.

4. rules or not, that doesn't inhibit streetfighting. I am a sport guy and also a bouncer in a club. my rule bound sport techniques work just fine.



Many UFC fighters don't do it to prove themselves as good fighters, they do it for the money mainly and for the fame also.

How many pro fighters have told you this? names? IME, it's rare that fighters fight to prove anything to anyone. they may fight for money and largely they fight because they like to compete. competition is the ultimate way to make yourself a better fighter, for various reasons.



If they originally started with traditional ways they have now moved onto more type of training like a boxer. Many UFC fighters would do horrible in a real fight because thats not what they train for.

thanks for telling me that. When I'm at work tomorrow night, I'll remember that I'm supposed to lose because I don't train for streetfights...:rolleyes:



Just like many masters would do poor in UFC because they do not train in a way where they would be used to the confinement of UFC rules.

wrong. they lose because they don't train for the venue. in the original ufc and in the old vale tudo, there were few rules (ufc) if any at all (vale tudo), and you still saw losses for most tma. the problem is they didn't have the stamina to fight prolonged rounds and had little to no grappling training. They weren't training for the venue.

[SevenStar]

The reason why Kung Fu masters don't fight in the MMA is because 1:They don't need to fight for money(that's what the ufc is), they already make money teaching and that takes up all their time. 2:their too old and the ufc probably won't let them fight 3:they live in china and are to far away from the ufc and don't want to fly for 10+ hours to get their.

1. that's crap. many fighters don't fight for money. Do you have ANY idea how huge amateur fighting is? and they don't get paid. a non competitor typically can't understand a competitor's reasons for doing what he does. Also, not all CMA teachers teach full time. I know several of them who have second jobs. Teaching does NOT take up all of their time. And even if it did, they could teach their students to fight and compete, no?

2. if they are that old, they would get mauled anyway. the old guys may be able to take untrained fighters but against younger guys who train to fight, the younger guy would stomp him. that's why people stop competing after a certain age.

3. Not all of the masters live in china. Not only that, but they have mma in china. Even if they didn't, the master or his students could compete in san shou.


But the main reason is because in order to qualify for the ufc you have to be a well rounded fighter skilled in these three categories: ground n' pound, submission, and hand to hand.

most kung fu maters only qualify for the last two.

right answer, but wrong skillset for the kung fu master. I don't know of ANY CMA guys, master or non who are known for ground submission skills. chin na yeah, but that's not ground grappling, and it's rare that a standing lock is applied in mma, for various reasons.

[Water-quan]

For all the so called kung fu martial artists out there...can anyone give me an honest answer???

By now I am sure most of you have heard enough stories about how skillful and incredible some kung fu masters are and that kung fu skills can over come external forces coming from bigger opponents etc...you get my point. so my question is for all the greatest kung fu masters and martial artists from all over the world including yourself, why haven't any kung fu man (mantis, tai chi, hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fut, wing chun, xing yi, ba gua, jkd whatever etc...) able to use his skills in the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts tournament) or the Ultimate Fighting Champion??? Is it because of the size, strength, speed or fear or lack of skills or what? Please if anyone can give me an honest answer I would appreciated. And I am sure some of you martial artists out there would like to know too....thanks you for your time and honesty!

Ironcu.


That's a really good question, and thanks for asking it - and for having the courage to ask what is, after all, a really obviously in-need-of-asking question.

No one answer is going to cover all the angles, but the most obvious - what should be the most obvious and truthful answer - is that 99.9 percent of people doing CMA are simply not skilfull or powerful enough to enter those tournaments and survive.

People can rant and rave and deny - but it's so obviously true that all that's left to do is shrug.

Now, there's other considerations of course - Asian people tend to be in much lighter weight categories, so you don't have as many massive muscle-men who would qualify. Same effect occurs in heavier san shou categories - China tends to dominate up to a certain weight category.

The honest answer is that most Chinese stylists are no where near good enough to fight.

Having said that, the average stand up and fight skills that one sees on UFC aren't that great. Most of those fighters couldn't beat a boxer under boxing rules - pretty obvious because a boxer can focus more training on a narrower skill base.

Interestingly, a top boxer probabvly wouldn't do too great in UFC because of the wider technical range allowed... but that doesn't mean that boxing is crap, or that the boxer wouldn't win if it was an argument in an alley.

As for "UFC gloves don't allow the finer points of chin na" that is a really nonsense excuse and has no meaning and isn't even true. The only way for Chinese styles to become good enough is to stop making excuses like that - to see through the whole excuse making exercise, and despise it for what it is.


Another aspect of the equation is who really knows real kung fu? Wang Xiang Zhai said that he only knew of two or three people in the whole of China who actually knew real kung fu. So it may be that tghere's a suprise in store yet!

[msg]

heres a real answer its not that cma people cant fight or that chinese ma is not good enough ufc is a sport a lot of people dont do sports not football or baseball its all a sport ..and if you train in real kungfu its not sport oriented its made for one thing and one thing only to cause realy bad bodely damage not to make some one tap out ..talk to any old master he will tell you the real kungfu is to kill thats what the shaolin and all those arts are for

[WingTsun20]

Lets see RULES are the main reasons.... Not being able to use the art that they learn and also they'd prob have to end up gouging the guys eyes out or flattening the guys nuts...

Alot of MMA competitions don't let martial artists use certain movements...

[Vajramusti]

Many UFC fighters don't do it to prove themselves as good fighters, they do it for the money mainly and for the fame also. If they originally started with traditional ways they have now moved onto more type of training like a boxer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top rated boxers in their prime dont enter UFC--- make better money in boxing.
In the early UFC...after going through almost payless prelims you would meet for the final where the winner might get $30, 000 or so after taxes.

The public often mistake media events for reality--in politics, war or fighting.

Some folks who have had to deal with serious encounters are unlikely to brag on forums...and dont have a need for impressing forum warriors.


joy chaudhuri

[Water-quan]

heres a real answer its not that cma people cant fight or that chinese ma is not good enough ufc is a sport a lot of people dont do sports not football or baseball its all a sport ..and if you train in real kungfu its not sport oriented its made for one thing and one thing only to cause realy bad bodely damage not to make some one tap out ..talk to any old master he will tell you the real kungfu is to kill thats what the shaolin and all those arts are for


Well, that's an opinion, but Iam afraid that I don't share it. The old *Kung fu is too deadly to use* argument is just some nonsense excuse, and those who continually use it actually damage the future development of kung fu, in my opinion, because they just proved a convenient reason why not improve.

In fact, it is nonsense. All this abotu kung fu is for killing - what rot! That's just an attempt to play a game where kung fu is too deadly to use. What techniques are so deadly? Thrusting fingers in to the eyes until the brain bursts? UFC fighters could do that just the same. The awesome, secret kung fu that could beat UFC but hides away isn't worth a penny. Not that I say there is no kung fu that could beat UFC, just that the nonsense excuses are just that!

As for kung fu is not a sport, what a nonsense excuse! That's like saying kung fu is only a kick in the groin and a poke in the eye and a bite out of your leg! If that's true, then I guess that's all that kung fu is and any so and so can do it! If what you say is true, then all the rest - all the kung fu moves which ARE allowed under UFC are all redundant and useless, because even where they allowed, using only those rules against those rules, kung fu can't win! Very funny.

[Water-quan]

Lets see RULES are the main reasons.... Not being able to use the art that they learn and also they'd prob have to end up gouging the guys eyes out or flattening the guys nuts...

Alot of MMA competitions don't let martial artists use certain movements...


Bah! Ready made excuses, lol... If the rules allowed eye gouging and kicks to the balls the UFC fighters would still be miles ahead of, and miles more likely to win than 99.999999 per cent of Chinese stylists, and everyone knows it.

[Water-quan]

Many UFC fighters don't do it to prove themselves as good fighters, they do it for the money mainly and for the fame also. If they originally started with traditional ways they have now moved onto more type of training like a boxer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top rated boxers in their prime dont enter UFC--- make better money in boxing.
In the early UFC...after going through almost payless prelims you would meet for the final where the winner might get $30, 000 or so after taxes.

The public often mistake media events for reality--in politics, war or fighting.

Some folks who have had to deal with serious encounters are unlikely to brag on forums...and dont have a need for impressing forum warriors.


joy chaudhuri

Well, who cares about them? If they can't come and offer the real information then we have to find out about it on our own. Secret experts aren't worth a penny to us in that case! And if those secret experts exist, then they musn't love martial arts or care about it, or they must be motivated by personal reasons if they don't care about improving the state of CMA. Many excellent CMA stylists openly share the most profound information.

Discussing martial arts and the reality of how to improve is not bragging - and those who call it bragging - well, their opinions aren't worth a penny either, lol. The fact of the matter is, just to come on a forum and say "Their are secret masters who don't brag but are secretly awesome" is already the most despicable kind of bragging! They get all the credit for it, but never, ever prove it! How funny!

Boxers can fight UFC - they would just need to adapt training. There is a Japanese boxer in the K1 who is an astoundingly technically good boxer - I forget his name - and he trains to fight kick boxers - with the right training, his boxing adapts because Western boxing is light years ahead of 99.99999999 per cent of Chinese martial arts.

As for media events versus reality - what a nonsense excuse! UFC's aren't staged shows, lol, and what a despicable insinuation to assert that secretly there are more real things going on... only, you don't want to brag! Ha ha ha....

A fight against someone who isn't trained is one thing, but CMA is supposed to have a profound level. If it can't beat UFC, then either it isn't real kung fu, or kung fu can't beat MMA....


The rules of UFC are well wide enough for any style to do their stuff, within the bounds of being civilised. And if it wasn't civilised, 99.99999 % of those secret masters would just as much lose, in my view.

[msg]

ya ya its still a fact that kung.fu is not a sport and ufc is plain and simple ..if you realy think that a ufc guy could beat a real kung fu artist ..what about people like patterson or frank kumar ..

[Water-quan]

ya ya its still a fact that kung.fu is not a sport and ufc is plain and simple ..


Well, such as that is true the plain and simple reality is that that doesn't offer any where near the kind of blanket excuse for the faliure of CMA as you might think. Sport it may be, but its rules are wide enough to allow a wing chun guy to fight. If what you are saying is that Wing Chin could win, only, your eye strikes aren't allowed, so it can't, then I'll laugh for ten days.

As for ya yas, well sure, a poke in the eye is painful, but if that is all that Wing Chun has that is different, lol, then the UFC guys know Wing Chun also, because any one can poke in the eye.

Translated in to reality, what you are actually saying is that rules for rules, Wing Chun is useless unless one or two techniques are allowed - such as a poke in the eye or a kick in the balls. Which also means that technique for technique, UFC must be superior to Wing Chun in every respect other than those few techniques, because within the rules, it can't win... So the only thing *superior* about Wing Chun is the illegal techniques... one or two moves which any fool could do... and any UFC fighter could easily do. Very funny.

But, thanks - what you ARE saying is that we can disregard 99.9 percent of Wing Chun - as other techniques are proved to be far more useful. That's good research then.

See, all this "kung fu is not a sprt" nonsense is a smoke and mirrors trick. And the obvious implication of your logic is that everything that CAN be used in UFC COULD be tested.... lol.... and if it can't win - without the "deadly" techniques - then it ain't worth much then is it? Might as well take the two deadyl techniques and add them to MMA style! So uch for kung fu in that case!





if you realy think that a ufc guy could beat a real kung fu artist ..what about people like patterson or frank kumar ..

Well, who says a UFC guy won't be a real kung fu artist? What do you class as real kung fu?

[msg]

i dont even do wing chun i do hsing.i for the engery but in a real fight i would use kuntao,silat and how do think saying kungfu is not a sport is smoke and mirrors

[Water-quan]

i dont even do wing chun i do hsing.i for the engery but in a real fight i would use kuntao,silat and how do think saying kungfu is not a sport is smoke and mirrors


Wing Chun, Hsing Yi - irrelevent... insert name here... the so called style doesn't matter one jot - same principle.

It's smoke and mirrors because it is intended to hide the ineficiency of average CMA level by pretending that CMA is too deadly to use in UFC... and that that is the reason why no kung fu styles win UFC or MMA tournaments. That is just a game of find the excuse... make up an excuse.... the kung fu masters don't want to do it... or the techniques are too deadly.... or the uniforms might get blood on them.... pick and excuse - all smoke and mirrors. Makes me sick for days to hear that kind fo thing - and worst of all, to hink that people actually believe they are defending or aiding CMA by saying it - that makes me sick for a month.

[Water-quan]

During the last half of the year, the other boxers have come to me to compare their skills in combat. I will not point out who they were, in order to let them keep their ways of making a living. Now they mostly understand that they were wrong, but why do they not agree to come and discuss the martial arts openly, and furthermore, why are they not willing to compare their skills in combat, in order to improve their learning? On the contrary, they go against their conscience and claim others to be wrong. They do nothing but secretly create absurd tales, and still they pretend being ignorant of those tales. What do they do that for? As for the non-professional martial artists, they want to become mysterious boxers by creating these tales, being like theatregoers not well versed in drama, they are not able to do anything but throw punches at random to show off their skills.

That is really something to be despised. In case my words are considered erroneous, can the non-professional boxing students agree to grant me instruction? Furthermore, I wish to have small friendly tests of skills in combat, and even if the people who come to me have no martial skills at all, I will not insult them, and I will not tell about them to other people in order not to harm their business. If one cannot come to visit me to grant me instruction, then please tell me the place and the time, and I will come to pay my respects on time. If one has even a tiny strong point, I will do my utmost to give him publicity, and if one has no strong points at all, I will keep my mouth shut. If one always considers oneself as a top boxer behind closed doors, that is not worth a penny.

Wang Xiang Zhai

[msg]

ya i pretty much know your type i most likey dont live in your area but i would love to do some friendly sparring with you maybe when i come vist the states i can come vist you ....do you have a school or place we can meat i would like you to share your knowlegde with me ...and i wil let you know when iam comeing to vist..

[msg]

the point is people are allways going to have there openion on that ufc is better than cma or cma guys dont fight ufc guys because there not that good and hide wich all that talk i get pretty tired of ...so it comes down to what each person likes nether are weak ..it depends on the person and most poeple like to talk a lot of nonsense on the computer .AND THATS REAL TALK

[Vajramusti]

UFC is UFC, Pro boxing is pro boxing, a real TCMA is a real TCMA--- why make apple and oranges-keyboard comparisons? Dont these discussions get tiresome?


joy chaudhuri

[SevenStar]

ya ya its still a fact that kung.fu is not a sport and ufc is plain and simple ..if you realy think that a ufc guy could beat a real kung fu artist ..what about people like patterson or frank kumar ..


Do you REALLY think that the fact that it's a sport would empower a kung fu guy that much more in the street? Do you REALLY think that because you have a handful of tactics that can't be used in a ring that you have some serious advantage in a streetfight over an MMA guy? Please tell me you don't...

[SevenStar]

the point is people are allways going to have there openion on that ufc is better than cma or cma guys dont fight ufc guys because there not that good and hide wich all that talk i get pretty tired of ...so it comes down to what each person likes nether are weak ..it depends on the person and most poeple like to talk a lot of nonsense on the computer .AND THATS REAL TALK

It shouldn't be about thinking which style can beat which style. That is the same tired argument...however, the training methods matter more than the person does... it's neither the style or the person - it's the training methods.

[msg]

i never said a cma guy would have an advantage in the street or a ufc guy had more advantage in the street and yes i think it depends on the person some people can and are more able to take a hit or even be more calm in a fight and that is one key factor in a real fight is to be calm

[PangQuan]

what ever style you practice does not matter.

a sport is a sport. what seperates a sport from reality is a set of rules.

regardless of the set of rules in place, we all have the same basic bodily structure, the same weaknesses, and so forth.

regardless of what style you practice you can adjust to any set of rules. your are not limited any more than an MMA figther is if your a kungfu man.

an MMA fighter certainly can eyegouge, leapord strike to the throat, etc...but they dont because its against the rules. I dont believe these concepts and techniques are mentally beyond many talented MMA fighters. that would be absurd to think.

if the rules state: ONLY PUNCHES TO THE HEAD. would you say " ow i cant eye gouge...my style is innefective as it has more than just head punches"

OR

would you say "wow, my style has many types of punches to the head, i can easily adjust to this set of rules and represent my self"

if you think about it realistically, kungfu not being represented in current MMA, is a direct result from kungfu men not entering.

its that simple.

this is just a current state of affairs, kungfu guys are getting on the bandwagon late is all.

kungfu being so "traditional" and not wanting to change or conform for a representation in modern format goes against the principles of yinyang.

many teachers do realize this and are working on the slow process that will eventually lead to kungfu students being prepared for modern sport fighting at its highest level of entertainment. Modern MMA.

just a matter of time my friends, just a matter of time.

i plan be one of the men who will personally see to this needed evolution of chinese martial art. once i begin teaching of course....which is not soon...

SO, if your a good coach, understand combat.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE AND TRAIN SOME **** FIGHTERS!

[SevenStar]

I would add to that that if you intend on training fighters, you should have fight experience yourself. when it comes to fight training, cornering, etc. experience beats out theory.

[PangQuan]

for sure.

would you want to go out in the river to catch huge salmon with some guy who has been standing in that river for 20 years. or some guy who has studied books about that river for 20 years.

[Water-quan]

ya i pretty much know your type i most likey dont live in your area but i would love to do some friendly sparring with you maybe when i come vist the states i can come vist you ....do you have a school or place we can meat i would like you to share your knowlegde with me ...and i wil let you know when iam comeing to vist..

I don't think you do know my type. i don't live in the States.

As for veiled threats over the net - I will laugh for ten days at that.

[Water-quan]

the point is people are allways going to have there openion on that ufc is better than cma or cma guys dont fight ufc guys because there not that good and hide wich all that talk i get pretty tired of ...so it comes down to what each person likes nether are weak ..it depends on the person and most poeple like to talk a lot of nonsense on the computer .AND THATS REAL TALK

Yes it is... I don't think UFC is better than CMA - far from it. What I said was take a reality check - 99.9999 per cent of CMA stylists couldn't survive a UFC fight. Threatening to fly over and teach me a lesson won't change that. If you COULD teach me I would gladly listen to you.

All this noinsense you write about all talk and all this nonsense - that's one of the things that keeps the real CMA down - supression of real information and clear thinking. Think I am the enemy of CMA? Wake up. I don't *do* UFC style. The ideas I am telling you about are a current in CMA thought, not an attack on CMA. The real CMA is profound - but it's nothing to do with any stlye. The quote from above is from Wang Xiang ZHai, not from me... go, investigate the real experts... don't waste time threatening me. *shakes head*

[Water-quan]

UFC is UFC, Pro boxing is pro boxing, a real TCMA is a real TCMA--- why make apple and oranges-keyboard comparisons? Dont these discussions get tiresome?


joy chaudhuri

Well, it might be that the differences which you percive between these are all superficial, in which case, your words are tiresome to me. The core essence is the same... only the trainign matters - further insight in to the core, or further away... far from tiresome, it's a profound wake up call for CMA - IF anyone actualy cares why it doesn't win UFC - you know, rather than scrambling to make silly excuses, or doing like those despicable types do who threaten anyone who dares speak contrarily to them. Those despicable men seek to intimidate others - makes me laugh for ten days or more to hear it!

Percieved differences between styles are all part of the illusion of bad thinking... so much concentration on the surface form is the total opposite to the point of CMA in the first place.

Quote:
Now they mostly understand that they were wrong, but why do they not agree to come and discuss the martial arts openly, and furthermore, why are they not willing to compare their skills in combat, in order to improve their learning? On the contrary, they go against their conscience and claim others to be wrong.
End.
Wang Xiang Zhai

[Water-quan]

i never said a cma guy would have an advantage in the street or a ufc guy had more advantage in the street and yes i think it depends on the person some people can and are more able to take a hit or even be more calm in a fight and that is one key factor in a real fight is to be calm

Lol - have you ever had a real fight?

[msg]

thats was not a threat dumb ass i dont make threats i like to learn every thing i can from anybody and yes i have been in a few fights even way before i started any trianing ..anybody can fight its not rocket science i used to hand out with the wrong people. and i dont think you have been in many

[Water-quan]

thats was not a threat dumb ass i dont make threats i like to learn every thing i can from anybody and yes i have been in a few fights even way before i started any trianing ..anybody can fight its not rocket science i used to hand out with the wrong people. and i dont think you have been in many

Calling peopel stupid is just another way of masking it all. There are a lot of defences, preventing people from answering the question truthfully. Lies and misunderstandings are one aspect. Threatening people is another, and calling people stupid is another. When you behave like that you simply maintain yourself as one of the reasons why CMA, on the whole, have a deplorable level. No, it really isn't rocket science to sit down and honestly ask oneself why it is that the person who wrote the original question even needed to answer it. All the nonsense about "real kung fu isn't a sport" and "kung fu doesn't need to prove anything" is just excuses - and every knows it, deep in their hearts.

The reasons why people won't address it are various - ego is one; people's personal egos areinvested in being part of a style and a tradition, and so really it is just self interest - pretending to support CMA they really just ensure their own position - selfish, and no actual care about CMA at all.

At one time, CMA was tested constantly, in order to improve it. Surface considerations like form are irrelevent - fre, personal exploration of your own quan - that's the true way - searching for the heart, the essence. The next thing to honestly ask yourself is the heart of what. If it's the heart of Tao, then there's many ways to that. If it's the heart of forms, then there's excelllent ways to that. If it's the heart of actual martial art skill, as in, actual, real boxing, then there's nothig wrong with that - and those that really do want that have no choice but to ask direct questions and give honest answers. Anytign else is just chaff, and for all your "dumb ass" and "I'll fly over and kick your ass" nonsense you can go and sit in the dark and listen to yourself, for all I am concerned. As for me, makes me sick for ten days to hear the very thing that neuters CMA pretending to be defending it.

Don't worry, I know you don't know what I am talking about, and you have me pegged as some steroid munching UFC nut. Learnig to dis-appoint expectations and open the mind a little is also key in the endevour to understand.

[Water-quan]

i like to learn every thing i can from anybody

Well then start learning. Not ever lesson conforms to what you already pre-conceive as the given truth. In fact, some of the deepest lessons come when you examine your beliefs, and listen to ideas that challenge them.

[msg]

dude there is some thing wrong with you .you have this idea that i want come over and fight you .get over your self i dont want to fight you ..anyways we can probaley argure over anything so lets just end it iam sorry for things i have said to upset you. i think you just took every thing i said the wrong way we agree to disagree. thats that

[Water-quan]

dude there is some thing wrong with you .you have this idea that i want come over and fight you .get over your self i dont want to fight you ..anyways we can probaley argure over anything so lets just end it iam sorry for things i have said to upset you. i think you just took every thing i said the wrong way we agree to disagree. thats that


I'm not upset with you. But I'm not sure why you think I would be interested in your excuses for your own behaviour.

[msg]

its all me your right what ever and there was nothing wrong with my behavior so just end it we were both agureing thats all i never was mad

[ittokaos]

Good Afternoon(it is for me anyway)

I've been reading and rereading this post today and I must say everyone here sure is spirited.

My comment, based on what I know about both styles of fighting, is the following: does it really matter?

Let's say,for sake of argument, that MMA/UFC is the best way to judge a person's fighting ability. Ok. So, fine, UFC rules the cage and the streets and anyone who disagrees is a "*****" who doesn't know how to fight and is ignorant of the current movement in martial arts today. All CMA/TMA are old and outdated and unless you mix them you can't possibly be a good fighter. All martial arts are sports and if you just train in the dojo/kwoon/street/backyard you're just kidding yourself and there's no way that you could ever survive in the cage with Liddel(or whoever) unless you add a little BJJ and Muay Thai to your style.

There are no true kung fu masters and CM artists just make excuses and cry about how it's not fair that they have to wear gloves and can't do dim mak or other deadly strikes. These deadly strikes don't exist, they are just old legends and can not be proven by the superior fighting arena that is the octagon. Kung fu has no grapples. Western boxing is one of the greatest fighting style in history. Awesome.

Now, let's say, for sake of arguement, Kung fu is superior in everyway to UFC. UFC/MMA is filled with tons of brutal yet unskilled fighters. The octagon is a fighting arena that caters to the unfortunate dilema that is plaguing TMA: the so called MMA fighter. This type of fighter, while good at his sport, cannot survive on the street with their obviously limited skill. MMA is comprised of fools who don't understand the value of chin na and choose not to see that a true kung fu master could kill a MMA fighter in the cage as easily as child crushes ants.

The reason that CMA isn't used in the octagon is the fact that it is far superior and by setting up these rules they are limiting it's obvious effectiveness. When true kung fu is brought to the cage all will see it's deadly power. UFC is all BJJ and Muay Thai. Grappling doesn't work in a real fight and will leave you open for a beat down when fighting more than one opponent. Ground Fighting is utterly useless in a real fight. It only works in the cage. UFC is all about the money. Great.

Ok, everyone happy? Anyone happy? No? Why not?

Well, here's the thing. We can go on and on and on about why we think that our way of fighting is superior to someone else's and we will never get anywhere. I know that what I typed isn't exactly what you guys were saying but it was on more or less. At the end of the day, people are going to believe what they want to believe. They believe what their eyes tell them. They believe the tangable. The here and now. What the media/government/parents/authority figures/etc.. tell them to believe.

Most of (not all) of the people here that are pro MMA, do a little and or are training to do UFC(or pride/k1/etc). They watch it on tv and probably think"Wow, these guys are awesome, I think that they are some of the best fighters out there. Kung fu is fake and doesn't compare. This is how a real man fights!"

On the other side, (most)CMA say/think that Kung fu is the most sophisticated style in the world. No other fighting style compares and if kung fu was brought to the cage, everyone would see a true martial artist fight!

So, how do we stop this arguement? Let's say that a true kung fu man goes into the cage and dominates so much that all MMA artists are stunned by his skill and revere him as the greatest. Let's say that they eventually remove the gloves and let true kung fu be seen. Someone dies. Good? No? Ok, lets say that a kung fu man does into the ring and gets beaten badly by MMA fighter. Kung fu activity declines until it is virtually non exsistant. No one will use kung fu due to it's ineffectiveness. Kung fu as we know it is gone. Awesome right? No? Why not?

This arguement will continue to rage on and on for no real reason. I know that one wants the other to see the error of their ways and "see the light" but it's probably not going to happen. So, just agree to dissagree.

As for true kung fu to go in the cage, why? For what purpose? Is that what your sifu taught you? To go into a ring and prove that your kung fu is superior? Competition is one thing. A test of skill, fine. But to go into a ring to prove that you are superior? That is not The Way. Kung Fu means hard work. You work hard at your skill and it is frustrating for someone to tell you that your hard work is meaningless. That your time was foolishly spend on foolish goals and endeavors.

I know, I've been there. Is it worth it? Is it worth soiling the values of your martial art in order to prove yourself? You prove yourself everyday when you get up and train when others are relaxing. You prove your skill more by choosing not to fight than to fight for the wrong reasons. Is it worth dying for? If it's not, then it's not worth fighting for, no matter what the reason.

For the UFC enthusiast, kung fu is what a vast majority of MA originated but there is no one style of martial art that is superior to another. Only the individual is superior. If a kung fu man went into the octagon and lost, it isn't because the art doesn't work it is on the artist and the artist alone. If a musician plays a bad song it's not because his style of music is horrible it's because the musician isn't as good as he/she thought.

The octagon isn't the end all be all in MA and while that wasn't said in so many words, it was somewhat implied (even though it wasn't intended to do so)when it was compared to CMA. CMA is excellent for fighting. Sport or otherwise.

Look at Bruce Lee. Are you saying that Bruce Lee wasn't a good fighter? UFC and other MMA competitions are based on the values that Bruce Lee taught. His Jeet Kun Do was based on his experiences with wing chun and what he added on to improve this. Now, this wasn't necessarilly an improvement on the style but a way to get out of a style mentallity and go about improvements from a different angle. Never once does he state that wing chun or any other CMA is ineffective in any respect. He just felt that a "style" gave him limitations.

As for the too deadly, some CMA techniques are brutal and can be deadly(especially the pressure point strikes) but if kung fu is planing to go into the octagon then that individual will have to make a change to they're training if they are to succeed without those deadly strikes. If you can generate enough force behind your attacks any kung fu man could put up a good fight.

Don't assume that just because you haven't seen it that it doesn't exist. That goes for everyone out there.

I think that Bruce Lee said it best. It went something like this(don't quote me): "To see is to be decived, to hear is to be lied to, to feel is the only was to the truth."

I understand that the words from this mouth(fingers) won't neccessarily stop this conflict. The ego is far too strong and is so obviously raging is the minds of some of these posters.

However, martial arts, true martial arts were meant to kill. Not for sport. Not to impress. Not for money. Not for glory. Death. When martial arts are used for death they are being used correctly. Self Defense is merely a side effect. Fortunately, through martial arts one can learn that death, glory, money, fame, etc..really don't matter.

The little things in life are what make it worth living. It no longer matters that no one thinks that you are the greatest at your art. You know. You have nothing to prove. There's an old saying: "A shallow bucket makes great splashing sounds but a full bucket is silent. "

Unfortunately, today we are all faced with the ego which make that little things difficult to enjoy and because of that same ego, foolish conflicts arise. What one needs to learn is that the true enemy is onself.

I know that my words have probably fallen on deaf ears just as I know that my words will be attacked and holes will be poked through my comment by those who must truly enjoy this conflict, for if they didn't they wouldn't continue it.

I can only hope that I have helped at least one person today with my words. If I can at least get one person to think, truly think on this, then I will be thankful.


Thank you for your time,

WF

[SevenStar]

Most of (not all) of the people here that are pro MMA, do a little and or are training to do UFC(or pride/k1/etc). They watch it on tv and probably think"Wow, these guys are awesome, I think that they are some of the best fighters out there. Kung fu is fake and doesn't compare. This is how a real man fights!"

no offense, but that's just ignorant.


On the other side, (most)CMA say/think that Kung fu is the most sophisticated style in the world. No other fighting style compares and if kung fu was brought to the cage, everyone would see a true martial artist fight!

no offense, but that is ignorant as well. I will agree, however, that various kung fu styles may well be the most sophisticated arts in the world.


This arguement will continue to rage on and on for no real reason. I know that one wants the other to see the error of their ways and "see the light" but it's probably not going to happen. So, just agree to dissagree.

people agreed to disagree years ago. However, debating is fun, hence the reason people debate on forums.


As for true kung fu to go in the cage, why? For what purpose? Is that what your sifu taught you? To go into a ring and prove that your kung fu is superior? Competition is one thing. A test of skill, fine. But to go into a ring to prove that you are superior? That is not The Way. Kung Fu means hard work. You work hard at your skill and it is frustrating for someone to tell you that your hard work is meaningless. That your time was foolishly spend on foolish goals and endeavors.

In what position are you in to tell someone what The Way is?


I know, I've been there. Is it worth it? Is it worth soiling the values of your martial art in order to prove yourself?

assuming that you have actually fought, doing so to "prove yourself" is pointless. Who are you trying to prove yourself to?


You prove yourself everyday when you get up and train when others are relaxing. You prove your skill more by choosing not to fight than to fight for the wrong reasons. Is it worth dying for? If it's not, then it's not worth fighting for, no matter what the reason.

I'm sure cops don't think you are worth dying for. They still go to work everyday. I don't think the people in my club are worth dying for, but I still go bounce people out when they step out of line. it sounds like you picked up this entire post from a movie.


For the UFC enthusiast, kung fu is what a vast majority of MA originated but there is no one style of martial art that is superior to another. Only the individual is superior.

not true. People are superior - training methods are.


If a kung fu man went into the octagon and lost, it isn't because the art doesn't work it is on the artist and the artist alone.

losing isn't the point. People lose all the time - someone has to, regardless of what style they train. It's the way they train they means most. training methods rule the day.


The octagon isn't the end all be all in MA and while that wasn't said in so many words, it was somewhat implied (even though it wasn't intended to do so)when it was compared to CMA. CMA is excellent for fighting. Sport or otherwise.

that was not implied. CMA may be excellent for fighting in some venue somewhere - like san da - but it's lack of a grappling element makes inferior for cage fighting, unless the practitioner cross trains in grappling. On the same token, a bjj guy would probably suck in a san da match. you have to train for the venue you are competing in.


Look at Bruce Lee. Are you saying that Bruce Lee wasn't a good fighter?

who cares?

1. he is dead
2. he has only had what, one or two documented fights?
3. he is dead
4. since when does having two fights make you a great fighter? He had great attributes, but that does not attest to him being a good fighter.
5. he is dead.


UFC and other MMA competitions are based on the values that Bruce Lee taught.

I'm sorry, but said values were around WAY before bruce lee's great grandparents were even alive...


As for the too deadly, some CMA techniques are brutal and can be deadly(especially the pressure point strikes)

tell me you're joking...


but if kung fu is planing to go into the octagon then that individual will have to make a change to they're training if they are to succeed without those deadly strikes. If you can generate enough force behind your attacks any kung fu man could put up a good fight.

that was a silly statement, but you are on the right track here.


I think that Bruce Lee said it best. It went something like this(don't quote me): "To see is to be decived, to hear is to be lied to, to feel is the only was to the truth."

it has been felt on numerous occasions.



However, martial arts, true martial arts were meant to kill. Not for sport. Not to impress. Not for money. Not for glory. Death. When martial arts are used for death they are being used correctly. Self Defense is merely a side effect. Fortunately, through martial arts one can learn that death, glory, money, fame, etc..really don't matter.

1. that's not what they are used for now - they have firearms for that
2. the way they trained then ws completely different than the way you are training now
3. they had an entirely different mindset than you have.
4. what they train was also used for sport - look at the history or muay thai. Or even kung fu - challenge matches were still a sort of sport, as were the collisseum fights in ancient greece. EVERY civilization in recorded histrory has had some indegenous folk wrestling style. there has always been some sportive aspect to fighting.


The little things in life are what make it worth living. It no longer matters that no one thinks that you are the greatest at your art. You know. You have nothing to prove. There's an old saying: "A shallow bucket makes great splashing sounds but a full bucket is silent. "

a full bucket breaks its silence if the outside force is hard enough.

regardless, sport fighting in most cases is not about proving yourself, but of course, individual reasons will vary.


Unfortunately, today we are all faced with the ego which make that little things difficult to enjoy and because of that same ego, foolish conflicts arise. What one needs to learn is that the true enemy is onself.

unfortunately, too many non-competitors make the same assumption you made here.


I know that my words have probably fallen on deaf ears just as I know that my words will be attacked and holes will be poked through my comment by those who must truly enjoy this conflict, for if they didn't they wouldn't continue it.

somtimes people just truly say stupid things too...


I can only hope that I have helped at least one person today with my words. If I can at least get one person to think, truly think on this, then I will be thankful.


I had to think as I replied, if that helps.

[ittokaos]

Thanks for proving what I was saying.

I understand that some of things that were stated in my post sounded ignorant.

I completely agree!

They were arranged in a mocking fashion to address the way that the arguements on this forum were composed.

I was using sarcasm (trying , at least )to address this issue. Perhaps I was unsuccessful in doing so. I tried to make obvious sarcastic remarks but I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I apologize for the missunderstanding.

This post is just to reply to what you (seven star) commented after I said my piece. This is to elaborate on what was already said (written). I suppose that I was not clear enough before and I hope to retify this matter today.

As to your comment on whether or not bouncers or police care about who they are protecting: I suppose that they don't but seeing as how they are paid for their services they will still protect. I said that the reason had to be worth dying for. For those who are paid to protect, i suppose a pay check provides trhat reason. My comment was based on the fact that several kung fu practitioners were saying that kung fu is superior and that several people are going into the cage to prove that. My comment was that in a real fight(not because you are paid) you have to be aware that you could die. Someone could pull a knife, or a gun , etc... one could posibly lose his life. I was just trying to say that any altercation could be dangerous. I suppose it was a bit off topic but I felt that it need to be said considering the fact that it is a street fighting forum.

To your comment on deadly techniques: No, I wasn't joking. I am not an expert at such techniques but several hard stomps on the side of someones head can and most likely will kill them. I suppose you thought that I was referring to the "kiss of the dragon" poke in the back of the neck death blow. As for that, I can't actually say. I have never seen it but I am not so foolish as to think that just because I haven't seen it or don't really know about it, that it doesn't exist.

As for kung fu with no grapples: there are. Many, in fact. Look at shuai Jiao(i think that's how it's spelled). It's chinese wrestling. Tons of grappling and is kung fu to the best of my knowledge. Hop Gar has full head grabs. Wing Chun has leg takedowns. The point is Kung Fu has tons of grapples but you never hear about them. It's not pretty or cool looking so it's not in kung fu(or any movie with kung fu) movies.

In regards to who I was proving myself to: everyone. I felt at one time that everyone that questioned my manhood needed an ass beating. I was all too happy to oblige. What I have learned is that you never need to prove yourself to anyone. What I was trying to address was the fact that people were willing to enter that cage with the whole "Well, I'll show you! attitude" whenever someone says that kung fu won't work. What I was saying is: don't do this based on foolish pride. It doesn't matter what they say. You (the individual) know that you are good. There is nothing to prove.

As to the comments on Bruce Lee: he's dead!?! Really!? when did he die?!? I was wondering why he hasn't made any more movies. Again, sarcasm. Of course he's dead. I'm not (always) an idiot . My reason for bringing him up is the fact that there would be no MMA (modern day MMA) without Jeet Kun Do. UFC would be extremely(maybe not extremely different, but it's dramatic so, whatever) different without it. On the subject of documented fights: If that's what were going by to determine a person's skill, then there have only been like 100 good fighters over the course of fighting history.

To the comment on kung fu for (or not for) death: That's what it was created for. True the training methods have changed but the purpose of the art hasn't. Guns are superior for killing but so are blades, sticks, rocks, etc... never stopped kung fu before. True, guns are superior to those other weapons but just because kung fu is deemed useless in comparrison doesn't mean that it is the flowery dance on modern wushu. As to it being used for sport: true, but these matches usually had a death waiver that needed to be signed. However, chinese wrestling was used for sport but, then again death was also common in those matches. Colliseum fights (pancration,gladitorial combat, etc..) were extremely brutal and often led to death. Perhaps it was sport but death was the agenda.

In regards to the full/shallow bucket: This saying is about talking about how good you are. Those with superior skill need not discuss it. Goes hand in hand with the whole proving yourself issue. Besides, the full bucket only makes noise when it is struck and when the water splashes out.

I think I have said all I really wanted to say on this matter. I thank you for proving my point and for actually thinking about my statement before you responded. I hope this clears up any issue that was had with my statement and hope that this clearifies this for others that came to the same conclusion. I know that I didn't respond in order. I apologize for the inconvienince.

Thank you for your time.

Have a good one,

WF

ps if you (anyone) have any ?s: send me a message. thanks!

[SevenStar]

They were arranged in a mocking fashion to address the way that the arguements on this forum were composed.

I was using sarcasm (trying , at least )to address this issue. Perhaps I was unsuccessful in doing so. I tried to make obvious sarcastic remarks but I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I apologize for the missunderstanding.

you partially succeeded. Some of it sounded sarcastic. Then again, perhaps I was just in debate mode anyway.


To your comment on deadly techniques: No, I wasn't joking. I am not an expert at such techniques but several hard stomps on the side of someones head can and most likely will kill them. I suppose you thought that I was referring to the "kiss of the dragon" poke in the back of the neck death blow. As for that, I can't actually say. I have never seen it but I am not so foolish as to think that just because I haven't seen it or don't really know about it, that it doesn't exist.[/quote]

the thing about those is that they are double edged. take something like an eye gouge. It's EASIER for the grappler to pull of than the cma guy. the grappler won't use it until he has you on the ground and controlled. As for dim mak, I don't buy into it, for various reasons.


As for kung fu with no grapples: there are. Many, in fact. Look at shuai Jiao(i think that's how it's spelled). It's chinese wrestling. Tons of grappling and is kung fu to the best of my knowledge. Hop Gar has full head grabs. Wing Chun has leg takedowns. The point is Kung Fu has tons of grapples but you never hear about them. It's not pretty or cool looking so it's not in kung fu(or any movie with kung fu) movies.

I didn't clarify - I wasn't talking about chin na or shuai chiao. I'm talking about ground grappling.


In regards to who I was proving myself to: everyone. I felt at one time that everyone that questioned my manhood needed an ass beating. I was all too happy to oblige. What I have learned is that you never need to prove yourself to anyone. What I was trying to address was the fact that people were willing to enter that cage with the whole "Well, I'll show you! attitude" whenever someone says that kung fu won't work. What I was saying is: don't do this based on foolish pride. It doesn't matter what they say. You (the individual) know that you are good. There is nothing to prove.

maybe... if you have been training, but NEVER had any real experience, what assurance do you have that you are good? That's more along the line of what I was getting at. the more serious competitors that I know compete for two reasons

1. to test themselves
2. just because they like to compete


My reason for bringing him up is the fact that there would be no MMA (modern day MMA) without Jeet Kun Do.

sure there would. People did it before him, as I pointed out, so why whouldn't they have circled around and done it again?


On the subject of documented fights: If that's what were going by to determine a person's skill, then there have only been like 100 good fighters over the course of fighting history.

not really. I can probably list more good ones that. But at least with documentation, you have proof of something. there is a record of every pro fighter's fights, and many amateur. There really aren't a lot of documented accounts of these to the death challenge matches that supposedly happened over the centuries.


To the comment on kung fu for (or not for) death: That's what it was created for. True the training methods have changed but the purpose of the art hasn't.

you can't tell that by the way it is trained in a lot of schools now... And that was my point. IMO, the average mma is better prepared for a life or death skirmish than the average TMA, based off of training methods alone.


Guns are superior for killing but so are blades, sticks, rocks, etc... never stopped kung fu before. True, guns are superior to those other weapons but just because kung fu is deemed useless in comparrison doesn't mean that it is the flowery dance on modern wushu.

you missed my point. People don't use kung fu on the battlefield anymore. They use guns. And if you ask people, you will find that most of them don't begin training in order to learn how to fight or kill. We have even done polls on this forum about it.


ps if you (anyone) have any ?s: send me a message. thanks!

d@mn... I shoulda read that BEFORE I replied...:D

[ammocase]

Dont use the UFC as a basis or measurement of a martial styles effectiveness. In every fight i been in i kicked someone in the nutts lifted up their jackets over their heads an beat their faces in while they struggle to open their jackets to see, ive knife handed people in the sides of their necks an kicked them thousands of times when they laid there on the street. In a self defense situation you dont have a refferee yelling in your ear thats illegal, i dont fight in a box, im not limited, i dont need MA to teach me how to fight, it just made me better.

i studied kickboxing... i was still fighting brutal like i listed above... i studied karate i still fought brutal like i listed above,, an now i study wing chun.. same principle. Except now i can trap use fast hand attacks an takedowns you apply what you study, but your aware of your surroundings whos around you what your oponnent is wear an what your wearing, only way to truely judge if kung fu or w.e is effective is to see it constantly in the streets, cause the streets is what matters, not some ring with rules.

Dont mix ring fighting with self defense

[SevenStar]

Dont use the UFC as a basis or measurement of a martial styles effectiveness. In every fight i been in i kicked someone in the nutts lifted up their jackets over their heads an beat their faces in while they struggle to open their jackets to see, ive knife handed people in the sides of their necks an kicked them thousands of times when they laid there on the street. In a self defense situation you dont have a refferee yelling in your ear thats illegal, i dont fight in a box, im not limited, i dont need MA to teach me how to fight, it just made me better.

i studied kickboxing... i was still fighting brutal like i listed above... i studied karate i still fought brutal like i listed above,, an now i study wing chun.. same principle. Except now i can trap use fast hand attacks an takedowns you apply what you study, but your aware of your surroundings whos around you what your oponnent is wear an what your wearing, only way to truely judge if kung fu or w.e is effective is to see it constantly in the streets, cause the streets is what matters, not some ring with rules.

Dont mix ring fighting with self defense

the exact same techniques I use in the ring are the same I use on my job. there is no limitation there. effective is effective, but different people prefer different techniques. knees and elbows in the clinch, jackets over their head, throws, whatever. fighting is fighting.

[Opedus]

As to what style/styles are better, more effective, or more dangerous, I cannot honestly answer. IMO it depends entirely on the fighter at the given moment. The world champion can fall on any given day despite his skill.

I know why however at least my school does not have members trying for the UFC, K-1, Pride Fighting etc...

We are taught that we learn Kung Fu not to best others for our own advantages, but rather to be able and stand for those who cannot defend themselves when the time to rise comes. The principles of Kung Fu are not set for such things as pride fights. Your proof of your skill is from your Sifu's acknowledgment. Whether you have belts, sashes, titles, or anything is irrelevant. Chinese martial artists are generally taught to take it with a grain of rice and show strength in their ability to turn and walk away. That is in no way a measure of that person's skill when he turns. That is a display of discipline.

Every art is effective in it's own sense. MMA trained fighters may have a hard time with multiple opponets or in large open areas where a wall to aid in a pin is hard to find. Kung Fu practitioners may have problems in a cage where they need a bit of room to effectively perform their art or with a grappling expert who knows how to get a hold of them. Ultimately a trained fighter anywhere can and probably is dangerous. Would I want to fight Gracie, Liddell, Shamrock....No way! I'm not stupid. By the same terms though I wouldn't want to fight any number of TMA Masters. B/c all of these have mastered their art and that's dangerous anytime.

[SevenStar]

We are taught that we learn Kung Fu not to best others for our own advantages, but rather to be able and stand for those who cannot defend themselves when the time to rise comes.

with no real way to test yourself, you don't know what you will do when said time arises. Not only that, but we do not compete for our own 'advantages' - that is a non-competitor's viewpoint, as they are on the outside looking in. We compete so that we can progress. by competing and testing yourself, you ensure a natural progression and ensure that you do no stagnate. If you play chess against the PC on easy level all of the time, how do you know what skill level you are? How do you stack up against a human? it's the same thing. by continually checking yourself, you continually improve.


The principles of Kung Fu are not set for such things as pride fights.

but it was set for gangsters to use when they needed to collect money? but it was set for challenge matches? It was set for said gangsters to kill people? People over romanticize what they think are "kung fu values"...


Your proof of your skill is from your Sifu's acknowledgment.

And how do you know how skilled your sifu is? all you know is that he is better than you are. You are better than the new guys in your kwoon, but does that qualify you to judge their skill level?


Whether you have belts, sashes, titles, or anything is irrelevant. Chinese martial artists are generally taught to take it with a grain of rice and show strength in their ability to turn and walk away. That is in no way a measure of that person's skill when he turns. That is a display of discipline.

1. competition takes discipline also
2. don't confuse competition with real fighting. many mma guys walk away from street fights as well.
3. why do we have san da, shuai chiao and forms competitions? according to you, kung fu is not for that...


Every art is effective in it's own sense. MMA trained fighters may have a hard time with multiple opponets or in large open areas where a wall to aid in a pin is hard to find.

1. mma guys strike. they would be at no more of a disadvantage than a kung fu guy.
2. you don't need a wall to pin someone. grappling is about positional dominance, both on the ground and standing. walls are not necessary.



Kung Fu practitioners may have problems in a cage where they need a bit of room to effectively perform their art or with a grappling expert who knows how to get a hold of them. Ultimately a trained fighter anywhere can and probably is dangerous. Would I want to fight Gracie, Liddell, Shamrock....No way! I'm not stupid. By the same terms though I wouldn't want to fight any number of TMA Masters. B/c all of these have mastered their art and that's dangerous anytime.

Have you seen the fight between the two masters in macau, cerca 1954? Not all "masters" are masters at fighting. Had they done more testing, they would've known that...

[Opedus]

You do not need a test to know your skill. Someone with no training can play a musical instrument. They've never been graded, been through exams or anything else. but they have the ability.

The values of Kung Fu are over romanticized to those who don't understand them. People like the famed masters who did go against Gracie and gave all Kung Fu practioners a bad name. The value systems are set there b/c they are effective. My art has exsisted now for over 500 yrs. Tradition is never meaningless.

I know that my Sifu is a respectable man that was taught by our grandmaster and that my Sigung is the chief international instructor of a style that is respectable and teaches us honesty, and control. That is all I need. It all falls back on the fighter. A honeybee and a killer bee have the same venom. The only difference is the attitude.

CMA sparring such as San Da is a way to share our style with our brothers of kung fu. Not to gain titles.

Ok so there are some MMA guys that can strike. That isn't a reliable source if 90 percent of your time you train in submission.

And if you don't need the wall then why does it always go to the wall. Pin them in the center of the ring like a good wrestler would do.

A master isn't dependant upon title. There are many master's who decline to go to black belt ranking b/c they believe they have too much to learn.

You want a good overall argument.

Kung Fu has Existed for literally centuries upon centuries. If it didn't work, it wouldn't still be practiced. You kick a metal post to get it loose from the earth. Well what do you know....it didn't just fall out. You try something different b/c ur first attempt didn't work. Kung Fu was built on the entire basis of defense from outside forces. Wow. It does kind of seem like a thug centuries ago might have been as agressive as one now.

Just some things to mull over.

[SevenStar]

You do not need a test to know your skill. Someone with no training can play a musical instrument. They've never been graded, been through exams or anything else. but they have the ability.

you don't have the same stress factors either, unless you're playing in concert, and yes, there is nervousness and mistakes involved in that as well.


The values of Kung Fu are over romanticized to those who don't understand them. People like the famed masters who did go against Gracie and gave all Kung Fu practioners a bad name.

No, it's over romanticized by both the general public and many tma practitioners. the stories of what masters did in the old days, how hard they trained, etc. - please. What can YOU do? how hard do YOU train? How do you know they were awesome fighters? did you see them?


The value systems are set there b/c they are effective. My art has exsisted now for over 500 yrs. Tradition is never meaningless.

wrestling and boxing have been around far longer than that. Not really sure what your point is there. My point with the value systems is that they aren't necessarily present. If they were, there would not have been gangsters and thugs training in kung fu, would there?


I know that my Sifu is a respectable man that was taught by our grandmaster and that my Sigung is the chief international instructor of a style that is respectable and teaches us honesty, and control. That is all I need. It all falls back on the fighter. A honeybee and a killer bee have the same venom. The only difference is the attitude.

that is fine and good, but you can't honestly assess your own skill based on theirs. They may be very good; that doesn't mean that you don't suck. they can't validate you.


CMA sparring such as San Da is a way to share our style with our brothers of kung fu. Not to gain titles.

then why are there san da and shuai chiao TOURNAMENTS?? isn't the taiji legacy coming up? open your eyes, man. As I stated, competition isn't about titles - that is an assumption made by non-competitors - but CMA do compete, or else there would be no taiji legacy and other cma competitions.


Ok so there are some MMA guys that can strike. That isn't a reliable source if 90 percent of your time you train in submission.

try training mma before you make an uneducated response like that. I spend more time striking than I spent grappling when I trained cma, yet cma always talk about the grappling in their style, because it's "in the forms"...


And if you don't need the wall then why does it always go to the wall. Pin them in the center of the ring like a good wrestler would do.

it goes to the wall because the wall is there. two wrestlers would do that also, but they are in a confined area, as are judoka. In judo, when you leave the assigned space, they move you back to the center. bjj does that as well. mma doesn't want unnecessary stoppages, so they don't stop you once you get to a certain area.


A master isn't dependant upon title. There are many master's who decline t go to black belt ranking b/c they believe they have too much to learn.

that wasn't my point. there are many "masters" that probably shouldn't have that title. THAT was my point. A black belt hardly denotes a master.



Kung Fu has Existed for literally centuries upon centuries. If it didn't work, it wouldn't still be practiced.

false. people would practice it anyway, because different people have different interests. Why do you think the majority of taiji practitioners train for health benefits instead of fighting? why do you think it is more and more rare to find people who teach the taiji fighting? the continued existence of kung fu is not solely based on "cuz it works".

[zippo_88]

I personally think it's because anyone who properly trains in Kung Fu or something like ninjutsu as well realizes that competition is not what they train for, it is for an inner goal and not an outward one. The whole Pride fighting thing is evident in it's name, as a martial artist we must let go of the ego and therefore have no pride so why compete? Martial arts, at least for me have never been about competition, I don't consider myself an athlete but a student of the martial arts. Kung Fu especially, has spiritual roots. It is human nature to want to compete but I personally feel we must surpass that urge and realize that competition isn't neccessary and we should train to improve ourselves for physical fitness, mental well being, spiritual awakening, and if God forbid the time ever comes, self defense.

Just my view on it.

[SevenStar]

I personally think it's because anyone who properly trains in Kung Fu or something like ninjutsu as well realizes that competition is not what they train for, it is for an inner goal and not an outward one. The whole Pride fighting thing is evident in it's name, as a martial artist we must let go of the ego and therefore have no pride so why compete? Martial arts, at least for me have never been about competition, I don't consider myself an athlete but a student of the martial arts. Kung Fu especially, has spiritual roots. It is human nature to want to compete but I personally feel we must surpass that urge and realize that competition isn't neccessary and we should train to improve ourselves for physical fitness, mental well being, spiritual awakening, and if God forbid the time ever comes, self defense.

Just my view on it.

you can always tell who the non competitors are because they all have the same view and same false assumption - it is not about titles, ego, etc. it is about progression and testing. learning about yourself. you said that you should train to improve, but what are you measuring that against? that is where competition comes in. most eastern arts have spiritual roots- muay thai does as well. that is irrelevant.

[msg]

I personally think it's because anyone who properly trains in Kung Fu or something like ninjutsu as well realizes that competition is not what they train for, it is for an inner goal and not an outward one. The whole Pride fighting thing is evident in it's name, as a martial artist we must let go of the ego and therefore have no pride so why compete? Martial arts, at least for me have never been about competition, I don't consider myself an athlete but a student of the martial arts. Kung Fu especially, has spiritual roots. It is human nature to want to compete but I personally feel we must surpass that urge and realize that competition isn't neccessary and we should train to improve ourselves for physical fitness, mental well being, spiritual awakening, and if God forbid the time ever comes, self defense.

Just my view on it.

thats one of the best view.'s i have heard in a while

[zippo_88]

thats one of the best view.'s i have heard in a while

Thank you my friend

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally think it's because anyone who properly trains in Kung Fu or something like ninjutsu as well realizes that competition is not what they train for, it is for an inner goal and not an outward one. The whole Pride fighting thing is evident in it's name, as a martial artist we must let go of the ego and therefore have no pride so why compete? Martial arts, at least for me have never been about competition, I don't consider myself an athlete but a student of the martial arts. Kung Fu especially, has spiritual roots. It is human nature to want to compete but I personally feel we must surpass that urge and realize that competition isn't neccessary and we should train to improve ourselves for physical fitness, mental well being, spiritual awakening, and if God forbid the time ever comes, self defense.

Just my view on it.

I competed to test myself, don't even know where most of the medals and crap like that are.
Competed in no weight competitions and bare knuckle fights, one of the first to compete in VT matches here in my area and I remember and learned more from the losses than the victories.
Ego is on of the first things you lose in competition if you are smart because you find out real quick that, no matter how good you are, there is always someone better.

[The Xia]

I personally think it's because anyone who properly trains in Kung Fu or something like ninjutsu as well realizes that competition is not what they train for, it is for an inner goal and not an outward one.
Competition is part of TCMA history. Ever hear of Lei Tai platforms?
And you have me laughing with the "Ninjustu" part of your statement. You may be right about sport not being a usual goal of Ninjutsu. In feudal Japan, Ninjutsu was trained for the purposes of assassination and espionage. But I don't think that's what you meant. lol.

The whole Pride fighting thing is evident in it's name, as a martial artist we must let go of the ego and therefore have no pride so why compete?
There are many reasons to compete. Testing your skills is one. Some also enjoy the thrill of competition.

Martial arts, at least for me have never been about competition, I don't consider myself an athlete but a student of the martial arts. Kung Fu especially, has spiritual roots. It is human nature to want to compete but I personally feel we must surpass that urge and realize that competition isn't neccessary and we should train to improve ourselves for physical fitness, mental well being, spiritual awakening, and if God forbid the time ever comes, self defense.
Daoism and Buddhism are in the fabric of TCMA but that doesn’t stop practitioners from competing. I think you should take a look at TCMA history. Kung Fu can be used for the things you mentioned but throughout history it was used for all kinds of fighting. Kung Fu styles are fighting arts. They aren't called "fighting arts" and "martial arts" for nothing.

[zippo_88]

And you have me laughing with the "Ninjustu" part of your statement. You may be right about sport not being a usual goal of Ninjutsu. In feudal Japan, Ninjutsu was trained for the purposes of assassination and espionage. But I don't think that's what you meant. lol.

No, that's not what I meant lol. I just used it as an example as a martial art where sport is not a goal.



Daoism and Buddhism are in the fabric of TCMA but that doesn’t stop practitioners from competing. I think you should take a look at TCMA history. Kung Fu can be used for the things you mentioned but throughout history it was used for all kinds of fighting. Kung Fu styles are fighting arts. They aren't called "fighting arts" and "martial arts" for nothing.

I agree, they aren't called fighting arts for nothing, they are for just that, fighting(self defense) not sport.

This is all my just personal view of course.

[The Xia]

My point is that it shouldn't stop anyone from competing. However, it's important to understand what the style is designed for in order to learn it.