Pushing hands with ogres....

[Fu-Pow]

I did push hands with this dude from my school this weekend who had no conception of how Taiji works. I might add that our teacher was out of town so there was no one there who was readily available to rectify the situation. Anyways, the guy was using total upper body strength ie muscular shoulder strength. I did my best to just follow him and not "fight" against him. I just tried to stick and listen. Anyways, then the guy has the nerve to start telling me that I'm not doing something right. I didn't follow what he said nor did I say anything about it. It seemed like he was getting really frustrated because I wasn't giving him anything to push against. I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best person at push hands or Taiji in general so I felt like I shouldn't be trying to teach him. But these were some seriously gross errors. In addition, my mom (yes my mom does Taiji with me!!!She rocks!!!) said the same thing about this guy. Have you guys had similar situations? How do you deal with people like this? How do approach things when you know something is not right, but your not an expert yourself?

Thanks in advance

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[OldFatBaldGuy]

The senior student at our school is 62 years old and strong as a bull. An ex-Green Beret with black belts in about 5 different hard styles. The concept of cooperative training completely escapes him. Pushing hands with him starts out fairly innocently, but within a minute you can expect him to try to slip a punch in....goes quickly from push hands to free sparring. When that happens, I just laugh, smile, and walk away. It's just easier that way. He has sharpened my listening skills, but sometimes the price is too much. He means well, but he cannot control his combative instincts. My teacher and I have discussed this, but we both agree that we doubt he can ever change

"Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change."

[TaoBoxer]

Whenever we can get a good shot in during tui so, it is expected to give it..... That being said, it had better be soft and fluid.... Not some WWF crap.

I had some Shotakahn guy coming in and terrorizing one of our female students...she was like 95 lbs. He could NOT figure out circle walking....or applications on the circle...so he made up for it by being terrible at push hands. He'd man handle her and throw her around. She'd had enough and asked me to PLEASE help her "be softer with him" and asked me to demonstrate. Well...he fell down. We had another guy who LOVED to just disengage, speed up and then hit me. I'd let him do it once or twice and then I'd say "You're winning...feel better now?" and then after a bit I'd ask him "ok...are you ready to do the exerscise now?"

All you can do with these guys is stay soft and then school em. Just remember that you can't let them steal your softness...steal your learning. Invest in weakness. you'll be fine.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If he felt nothing to push against then that can only be a plus point in your favour. If al he was attracted to was you insubstantiality then this is good. Fellow students who egt into the habit of telling others just how it should be done, are often laking a great deal themselves. I know cos I've been there and came out the other end. It's difficult I know but stay with them, as in Tbetan Buddhism, "our enemies can usually become our greatest teachers".

[bamboo_ leaf]

If he was able to disengage then you are not soft enough, actually not listening.
Next time follow and add, he will be thrown out.
To really listen means that you can hear the movement slightly be before it happens.

If you can really listen then you can use their force and send it back or lead them off. But you really have to be able to listen. (ting)

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[honorisc]

Perhaps being able to move well would go good with that listening--if you can't do the T'ai Ch'i, then there's no decisive victory. Many of these people sound like newers to push hands (at least their skill levels). So knowing what to do can be insignificat to teaching someone a lesson. Reminders as to the purpose of that particular exercise or outlining the level at which you would like to play (no hitting, keep contact, do as the instructor said...) Seems more likely to be appropriate, than trying to execute things at skill levels you don't yet have. Or tolerating people who don't know the rules, and no one is telling them (frustrating~). Some- such.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks bamboo, good insight. I'm kind of new to push hands myself so I'm not quite at that level.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[HuangKaiVun]

The point of Push Hands isn't to uproot the opponent. It is to teach combat skills and applications in a way that doesn't hurt either you or the person working with you.

Because of that, a muscle "shove" in a Taiji push hands context is less scary to me than a well placed hand in a place where I don't want it to be.

In a real fight or Push Hands scenario, I'd rather a guy be all stiff and pushy/punchy than flexible and techniquey. That soft hand on your sternum in Push Hands could easily become a throat strike in Yang Taijiquan.

This is why so many traditional CMAs like Taijiquan have iron shirt systems in conjunction with forms training.

These systems toughen your body up so that you can easily resist the flailing of the muscle goons and close down your gates so that the skilled practitioners can't get at you as easily.

[[Censored]]

Let me first say that I don't really study Tai Chi, but I do find it interesting.

Two weeks ago, I did some push hands with some guys from China. They couldn't stop me from hitting them. One of them said I was doing it wrong: "not circular enough".

Last week, I did some push hands with someone else, who has studied Tai Chi. He smashed right through me again and again. He said I "didn't dissipate the energy properly".

Maybe they are both right, maybe they are both wrong, I don't know.

I do know that, if I am in any danger of being hit or shoved around, I am making mistakes. I also know that uncooperative partners are often more helpful then they intend to be.

Most of all, I know that sometimes you must correct your partner with your hands and not your mouth. ;)

IIRC, you are in Seattle too. Maybe we can organize some informal weekend practice sessions at the park?

[Esteban]

Hi Fu Pow,

I'm having trouble with my browser and can't read the anems of all the posters, but I agree with what many of them have said. Fwiw, I think the comment that "uncooperative partners are more useful than they think" is right on the money. I don't think there's anything "wrong" at all about being batted around by an agressive, uncooperative pusher. Imho, in order to learn, you Must get pushed. Sure, you can avoid it completely (by detaching or resisting), but that won't always work. Not allowing him to be able to push you is a good level to be at. The next, ime, is to allow him to exert force on you. As someone else suggested, "just stick and follow." Even if he hits you, he won't learn the art of "adhere and follow, without resisting and without letting go." This also takes a bit of courage, calmness, and a lot of confidence. If you can do it, however, all the other stuff is easy. I.e., you won't need enormous power or speed to do whatever you want. Of course, if you have developed them along the way, that'll make you even more formidable. But, ime, if you depend on speed and power of any kind, you'll always be limited to how much of them you have. Just my opinion.

Respects,
Esteban

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Uncooperative is fine for free work, but the point of drills is refinement of skills not enforcement of coping mechanisms. If I'm training with someone who is looping around with pointles circles I'll try to point out how they are vulnerable to hits, but I don't need to get a shot in to do this.

If you are looking to get your skills tested in a broad way then why not go with an ogre, but if you are trying to use tuishou as a laboratory to examine nuance and refine your touch then working with ogres will retard your progress. Putting yourself in contexts that simply reinforce gross responses is not internal training. If you want to work on manhandling skills then take up wrestling. The mid-range grappling skills of Taijiquan are based on a precise and articulate understanding of your own body. You cannot be exploring this when you are struggling blindly outside the context of the drills.

Training skills is not fighting.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[[Censored]]

It seems to me that if you are still being "manhandled" by amateurs, it is a bit early to worry about nuances and refinement of touch.

And I really don't understand how a gross attack requires or reinforces a gross response. Is this a Tai Chi principle that I haven't heard of?

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The point is that tuishou is a drill not free fighting. You are not going to be able to understand receiving force as a principle if you are busy ducking punches. If the point is to train agressive and overpowering energy then that is fine, it is a key part of tuishou, its just that tuishou culminates there, it doesn't start there. A beginner who is put into the position of struggling against power may be able to learn to receive, but a couple of centuries of trying this stuff out has shown that is generally not the case.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Fu-Pow]

FTR, there were no punches thrown. The guy was just using muscle.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Esteban]

Hi,

well, maybe someone else was, but I wasn't suggesting that it's ideal to push hands with an uncooperative partner. As I think Censored mentioned, just because the partner is unskilled does not mean that one needs to "struggle" or resist or use a greater amount of force. So, what I compliment is someone who doesn't respond that way to an uncooperative partner. Instead, one can take it as an opportunity to use further develop one's skills. OK, I understand the argument that one can't develop the proper skills in a competitive environment. Tui shou is not the same as san shou. Ime, though, most people start by using force, even if they're trying to be "soft," so it's not easy to develop good skills with them. Usually, when one of the partners uses brute force, the other person can't handle it without resorting to force. The same if it's a much larger opponent who might not use anything more than his sheer weight. Anyway, if you're talking about developing a high level of sensitivity, it is "better" to push with someone who is much weaker, but still to manage not to use any force. It can be easier to tell the direction, force, and intention of a big "ogre" than of a frail person. Fwiw, we used to say that it was only sometimes possible to be "harder," but it always possible to be "softer." So, as you say, one can develop fine, subtle skills with a fine, subtle opponent. The problem is that few people start out fine and subtle, so one has to get past the gross use of force before one can get to the more subtle. That's the way it works most of the time. And, I think that's something like what Censored meant. But, if we want to talk about developing fighting skill: i.e., the ability to "use" listening. Then, unless one expects to be restricted to fighting with tjq people, it's more practical (if not ideal) to practice with people who know absolutely nothing, and who are agressive and uncooperative. Everyone who does tjq must, imho, absolutely must, make the jump from the expectability of tui shou to sparring under pressure. This doesn't mean a change of skills, or a different set of skills, or an irrelevant set of skills; it means one must gain the ability to use the same tjq skills under pressure that one uses in tui shou.
Even if one learns the two-man (88?) form or a really structured progression of tjq san shou, there's still the point where there's someone in front of you who is agile, mobile, and hostile.
Again, I'm not saying that tui shou is supposed to be two people flailing away at each other. I'm saying that the tjq person must learn to deal with that. Oh, btw, even though I don't think Fu Pow was talking about punching, I one should take the refs warning and "protect yourself at all times."

Just an opinion, I'm sure some disagree,
Esteban

[brassmonkey]

My own experience and I'm sure everyone who's done tcc is very similiar to yours. I remember when I first started out there was this 1 guy who did his own thing and didnt follow what the rest of the class was practicing by using muscle and I would dread practicing with him cuz I'd inevitably wanna clock him(especially when they are giving you advice). This is when you gotta check your ego and have faith in the principles your trying to develop in your body/mind. Now I appreciate having someone like this in class because noone in class is using muscle like this and its good to feel what alot of different players bring to the table. I have no doubt you'll surpass this classmate if you continue your route and he continue his.

[HuangKaiVun]

Well said, brassmonkey.

My thing about "losing" to the muscle guys is that you're actually WINNING.

At least I'm not getting hit by the REALLY nasty stuff (e.g. Single Whip, Brush Knee Twist Step) that requires more than a small degree of finesse and skill to pull off.

In events like these, I simply watch the storm do its thing and keep myself covered from errant lunges that threaten the vital points.

[lukrion]

Energy does not mean use power. I think that is something newer people to push hands don't understand.

If someone is coming at you hard, they already lost the point of the exercise. Sticking is used to feel intent. Even when on the offensive you want to avoid using telegraphing intent. If one uses "power" it is already telegraphed. Obviously this is only part of the big picture.

I love the persons reply , about his partner winning, now are you ready to do the exercise correctly.

It could take years for someone to untrain his muscle memory from using hardness for this application. If his ego doesn't want him to lose to a 100 pound female, he may never get the point of Push Hands.

[Esteban]

Hi,

I just have to say that the points above are, imo, right on the mark. It's the whole point of the sayint "invest in loss." If one worries about winning, then one loses. I'd always thought that the idea was "even if he attacks me with 1,000 lbs, I will use only 4ozs." The numbers are less important than the concept. Of course, if someone attacks with 4ozs, one must not make the istake of taking it "lightly," either. I suppose that's why they call it "sensitivity." In the end, it shouldn't make any difference how strong or hard the opponent is.

Respects,
Esteban

[Water Dragon]

Please re-read Kevin Walbridge's post. He is right on the money. Tui Shou MUST be cooperative in order to work as intended.

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[Esteban]

Hi,

as it happens, the names of the posters don't generally show up on my damaged browser. I have to look through the code on the page to know who's writing. But, anyway, I wasn't arguing with Kevin Wallbridge, I was answering a question/problem put by Fu Pow. I'll repeat that I don't think tui shou is or should be a shoving/flailing match --I'm personally opposed to tui shou contests, as well. Ok, I have my anecdote: there was a guy at C.K. Chu's place (I know some don't like him) in the mid 70s. He was a Big guy, about 6'6" and 300lbs. He wore glasses when he wasn't pushing, or depending on who he was pushing with. Anyway, his specialty was just moving his arms lazily, just going through the actions, but not really doing anything. Why? Because, no matter what you were doing, he would just send a straight blast --as in Brush Knee Twist Step-- right down the middle. It was scary. At the time, the practice space was like a narrow hall. There were many many bloody spots in the center of chests as well as bloody noses. I know. Someone will say: "that's not the way it's supposed to be done." He was not able to do it to the sifu, and that's why the one's who stuck to it (and the big guy) even though they were physically afraid were the ones who managed to get some skill. It wasn't the technique used; and it couldn't be superior fore: it was the conquest of the mind that got the results. You knew that if you could stand there without fear of being hit, without the intention to "knock him down," but WITH the use of stick, follow, not resist, not let go, then you had gotten something out of the practice. I also found that, afterwards, it was much more helpful to practice with women because it would be easy to resist them, but you'd have to listen more carefully to each movement. And, there was no fear element. Anyway, maybe I'm having trouble expressing myself. If it seemed like I was putting someone else's ideas down, then I apologize. I suggest that everyone follow the advice of his teacher.

Respects,
Esteban

[Nutt'nhunny]

1 drop your kwa, lower your breathing
2 Allign your seven stars
3 Close your eyes, relax and imagine an orbiting heavenly body, continue the push cycle it, and let it continue at its own speed at a curving trajectory. Just like NASA slingshoting a spaceship around the moon's gravity. Don't overextend on the push.

4. Imagine yourself as a giant koosh ball. Your arms are just the feeling your body goes back, drops and turns. Your dan tien is the only point of your body, there is nothing to hit, a slight movement of your dan tien makes them hit a hanging linnen shirt. Suck their arm in and do as you like with the overextention.

hope that helps