Who here CURRENTLY trains at a McSchool?

[SevenStar]

Just curious...

[SifuAbel]

This poll is retarded.

[lunghushan]

Nobody's going to agree on the definition of McSchool.

Some would say that any school that doesn't do fighting is a McSchool.

Others will say that schools that just do ring fighting where they don't guard the groin, don't allow contact to the back of the head, neck, etc., and no weapons, etc., are McSchools.

Others will say that McSchools are big chain schools.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here, is sites like Bullshido think that ring fighting and perhaps Dog Brothers is the end all be all of fighting and martial arts.

While they may be correct in that schools that don't test themselves a lot in real fights can probably hide under the McSchool banner, a lot of what goes on in ring fighting isn't very realistic because the rules dictate a lot of the engagement. No striking to the neck, no striking to the back of the head, spine, etc., no downward elbows to the head or neck or spine. In other words, no striking to very crippling targets, just the kind of target you would WANT to hit in a real fight.

However, finding a school that actually trains no B.S. techniques in a realistic manner is IMHO pretty difficult to find. The reason that personally I'm on this forum and not Bullshido is that this forum bills itself as a CMA forum -- not just a ring fighting forum. So I would expect to find people on this forum that practice CMA -- not just ring fighting.

So while I could say that I train at a McSchool (actually I don't because I don't train at any school right now), I don't consider it such because having done hard contact competitive sparring in the past, I think it's limited in terms of technique and unrealistic, in addition to being potentially injurious to the competitor, so I choose not to engage in that anymore.

[SevenStar]

This poll is retarded.


quite possibly. But it's a retarded poll with a point. Most likely nobody will answer seriously. Yet pretty much everyone here claims most schools are crap. There is a problem there.

[lunghushan]

quite possibly. But it's a retarded poll with a point. Most likely nobody will answer seriously. Yet pretty much everyone here claims most schools are crap. There is a problem there.

The problem seems to be that nobody knows how to spar and fight with CMA technique. When you put on big gloves, eliminate vital targets and dangerous techniques that could cripple somebody, you are left with kickboxing and grappling.

I personally agree that most schools are crap (and by crap, I mean that most of the people in the school could win against a big enraged attacker on the street), but I don't know what to do about it. I've made some suggestions, like schools should be more open to other techniques, allow people to cross-train without doing their versions of forms, etc., but then everybody says, "Just go take MMA." Okay, but MMA is pretty limited.

Plus, there's the whole issue of fighting and blood and skin disease, which is the reason I don't even do MMA. Something like 5% of males in the U.S. have hepatitis, which is very easy to transfer via a little bit of blood. That's why they test people before fights, but they don't test people in the dojo/kwoon.

[rogue]

No, I don't.

I do think that most schools don't know why they exist.

[SevenStar]

whew, for a second I thought you were posting to try and take some of my street cred!

[lunghushan]

Most schools exist to make $ for their owners -- that is the bottom line. It is a business. They sell their school however they do it.

If they don't just exist for $ then they usually exist for passing on whatever the person running it wants to pass on, or for the ego of the owner, or whatever.

Anyways, this argument is a little tiring because again, what is a McSchool.

And no, I don't go to a McSchool. I don't go to any school.

[rogue]

whew, for a second I thought you were posting to try and take some of my street cred!
You still have some left, or did you earn some cred back working as a bouncer at Chuckee Cheese. ;)

I think a McDojo is a commercial school that has totally sold out to make a buck at the expense of the students learning something useful.






BTW 7*, Be careful out there.

[lunghushan]

I think a McDojo is a commercial school that has totally sold out to make a buck at the expense of the students learning something useful.


Yeah, this is a good definition. That also includes the big chain schools that only exist for $.

[rogue]

Right, there is nothing wrong with being a commercial school. There is nothing wrong with schools that teach for non-martial reasons as long as everybody knows that going in. There is nothing wrong with catering to kids or families as long as you're honest about what you do.

But it's always bad to snow people into thinking they're learning the shiznitz when they're not and charging them big $$ so they feel special. Unless of course you're trying to corner the market on training bouncers for Chuckee Cheese.:D

[lunghushan]

Right, there is nothing wrong with being a commercial school. There is nothing wrong with schools that teach for non-martial reasons as long as everybody knows that going in. There is nothing wrong with catering to kids or families as long as you're honest about what you do.

But it's always bad to snow people into thinking they're learning the shiznitz when they're not and charging them big $$ so they feel special. Unless of course you're trying to corner the market on training bouncers for Chuckee Cheese.:D

Yeah, but try to argue that and then they'll call you a communist or something. In fact, I think Gene said I was anti-capitalist at one point (don't think it was for that, though).

[SevenStar]

Unless of course you're trying to corner the market on training bouncers for Chuckee Cheese.:D

Those kids can be pretty vicious. I may be able to make a living as chuck E's bodyguard.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Did someone say that MMA is more limited than CMA? If so, that is by far the most retarded **** I've heard in a while. Get over it, Crouching Tiger. Fact of the matter is, MMAist may not do crane beaks but on average they will 0wn the CMAist.

Spare me the Sport excuse too. This may be a sport, but it's the sport of fighting. These guys will train harder, longer, and more diligently that your average CMAist. If you beg to differ, look at your average kwoon/dojo compared to a MMA gym. How many fat ****s and chicks trying to lose weight do you see at the kwoon/dojo? Now look at the MMA gym.

The difference is this, chum. Most MMAist don't do this for a hobby, they live the lifestyle. Most CMAers are fan boys who believe in Dim Mak, chi blasts, and that their sifu/sensei is invincable.

There are your diamonds in the rough schools, but for the majority I'm right.

[lunghushan]

Did someone say that MMA is more limited than CMA? If so, that is by far the most retarded **** I've heard in a while. Get over it, Crouching Tiger. Fact of the matter is, MMAist may not do crane beaks but on average they will 0wn the CMAist.

Spare me the Sport excuse too. This may be a sport, but it's the sport of fighting. These guys will train harder, longer, and more diligently that your average CMAist. If you beg to differ, look at your average kwoon/dojo compared to a MMA gym. How many fat ****s and chicks trying to lose weight do you see at the kwoon/dojo? Now look at the MMA gym.

The difference is this, chum. Most MMAist don't do this for a hobby, they live the lifestyle. Most CMAers are fan boys who believe in Dim Mak, chi blasts, and that their sifu/sensei is invincable.

There are your diamonds in the rough schools, but for the majority I'm right.

LOL. MMA may train harder and better than a lot of people but they don't have any claw the throat, poke the eyes stuff. But of course MMA is the TRUE fighting because they do grappling so you can go to the ground with somebody while his buddy kicks you in your head.

MMA must be the best for the street because you can go to guard and rub nuts with your friend and hope he doesn't hit you in the groin and follow the RULES ... like no knives and no weapons.

LOL

[The Xia]

Does this really have to turn into another TMA vs. MMA thread? :rolleyes:

[rogue]

Teaching a kid good martial arts is fine but mcdojo B.S. for kids doesn't give them anything but false confidence in abilities they don't have. Even if the mcdojos were honest, and as you seem to be suggesting, admit that they aren't turning kids into little Mas Oyamas, what are they giving the kids? Structure, discipline, confidence, fun, blah, blah, blah I don't buy it. If you want your kid's character to improve there are better ways to do it then with a mcdojo, such as being a good parent and spending time with your kid.

But does your kid want to spend all of his time with you? I don't see a good kids oriented school any differently than I see Little League, they are both activities where the kids have some fun and learn something about working for something. It may not be the best way but it may be what hooks junior's interest and that's where you have to start.

[lunghushan]

But does your kid want to spend all of his time with you? I don't see a good kids oriented school any differently than I see Little League, they are both activities where the kids have some fun and learn something about working for something. It may not be the best way but it may be what hooks junior's interest and that's where you have to start.

Yeah, I think I used to have the same opinion as The Xia, but after what my friends have gone through who have kids, it's kindof obvious that kids need kid activities and adults don't necessarily want to do the same thing. (They'd probably want to tear their eyes out in a lot of cases).

Like martial arts especially -- my friend's kid is in TKD and the stuff they do like going around in a circle kicking, or jumping on bags, or little fun exercises that are sortof martial arts based -- I don't think any adult is going to want to do that.

And it seems to help. Sometimes it seems like parents are a little too close to their kids, and that can create friction especially in a society that eschews authority the way ours does. Little things get blown out of proportion. Sometimes having a third party influence really seems to help the kids out.

[SevenStar]

Does this really have to turn into another TMA vs. MMA thread? :rolleyes:

it's not supposed to...

[The Xia]

Looks like your reply came before my delete. Oh well, I figured it didn't fit in with the gist of this thread but I will continue since you already responded. :)
I see your point but why not send your kid to a good martial arts school as opposed to the mcdojo? Plenty of legit schools teach kids.

[lunghushan]

Looks like your reply came before my delete. Oh well, I figured it didn't fit in with the gist of this thread but I will continue since you already responded. :)
I see your point but why not send your kid to a good martial arts school as opposed to the mcdojo? Plenty of legit schools teach kids.

I guess what's the difference between legit school and McSchool. The TKD place my friend sends his kid seems to be a McSchool. They hardly even teach them TKD forms and instead make it fun for kids, yet it's still TKD ... they can sort of do a couple of forms.

A lot of towns are small and don't have good martial arts schools for kids -- all they have are McSchools.

[rogue]

Looks like your reply came before my delete. Oh well, I figured it didn't fit in with the gist of this thread but I will continue since you already responded. :)
I see your point but why not send your kid to a good martial arts school as opposed to the mcdojo? Plenty of legit schools teach kids.

I tried to get my kids interested in martial arts and they both hated it. They did find their own interests that have helped them learn a few things about work.

I don't think a kids class automatically means McDojo, it could just be someone who makes a living giving kids an outlet to have fun and the opportunity to learn a few things. http://www.gymagic.com/

Oddly enough I don't like what we consider legit schools teaching kids. To me they are two very separate things.

[The Xia]

I don't think a kids class automatically means McDojo, it could just be someone who makes a living giving kids an outlet to have fun and the opportunity to learn a few things. Are these people running a McDojo? http://www.gymagic.com/
A kids class doesn't automatically mean mcdojo. As I said, plenty of legit schools teach kids. I see much more value in sending a kid to a good martial arts program then a lousy one. That's my point.

A lot of towns are small and don't have good martial arts schools for kids -- all they have are McSchools.
That's true. In fact, many places have few or no martial arts schools that are good period.

[The Xia]

Oddly enough I don't like what we consider legit schools teaching kids. To me they are two very separate things.
Not sure what you mean by this. :confused:

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I have never trained in a McDojo, but that doesn't mean I would not send my child to one. For young children I think they are not a bad place to start. The kids have fun which may pique their interest and prepare them for true training later. They learn respect and sportsmanship (hopefully). They get a healthy workout. I agree with the above comment that they are just like the various forms of "little league".
My son is only eleven years old. I don't think his body is ready for fifteen minute Horse Stances, iron body and iron palm training. It could actually damage his young body rather than make him stronger and healthier.
I think that hard training and the risks that go with it is for adults. I only teach adults.
Maybe the kid playing around in a McDojo today will be the person who fell in love with martial arts as a kid and is ready to begin hard training with me as an adult. If so, God bless the McDojos!

[5Animals1Path]

I'd think the fundamental difference between a "real" school and a mcdojo has mostly to do with the difference between teaching someone, and catering to them.

Kids, adults, it doesn't really matter. Irregardless of whatever issues everyone may have with various ways of doing it, if you're not having to constantly work towards something, you're in a mcdojo. If your school is constantly refining your work, upping the ante in excercise/sparring/drills, is open to any idea someone can demonstrate, and will tell you what it might not be particularly good at, you're at a good school.

That's training the right way. Whether or not what you're training is better or worse then the next guy is a whole different kettle of fish.

[The Xia]

There are good schools that teach kids. So why not just choose one of those schools over a mcdojo?
On your other point about mcdojo kids growing up to love real martial arts, I have personally not seen this. What I have seen is either kids who eventually leave the mcdojo (for the same reasons that kids quit any activity) and later on think that martial arts are a joke or kids who stick with the mcdojo and grow up to think they are deadly fighters.

[The Xia]

SevenStar, you do know that it is highly unlikely that anyone will vote right? If you wanted to see some votes you should have put a "No, I do not train at a mcschool" option. You probably know this and are trying to make a point. Is that it? If it is, why do you assume that most forum members train at mcschools?

[SifuAbel]

If it is, why do you assume that most forum members train at mcschools?


..............................

[SifuAbel]

it's not supposed to...


ORLY.............

[rogue]

There are good schools that teach kids. So why not just choose one of those schools over a mcdojo?

The question that will always come up is what is a legit or good school. What's your definition of a good school?

To me a good or legit school delivers what it promises. It could be a hardcore MMA gym, a TKD dojang, a kwoon or a cardio kickboxing school, and they are each legit if they are filled with people who know why they are there and how what they are learning fits into that.

[David Jamieson]

who here trains at a secret mountain retreat with an old man who has a 300 year old hairstyle that includes a topknot and bangs?

the problem is, most likely will not develop an "eye" until they've been cheated for a few years, after that, a great majority of them will become entirely discouraged and wuill write off martial arts as mere bull****tery and never practice again even as their ass slowly expands and fills their cubicle.

then they might, maybe, but probably won't , move onto modern mixed martial arts and even if the program is half tard work, they will regard it as better because they are always sore or bruised or have devloped a staff infection from rolling.

In short, I no longer care, do my thing and haven't got much time to waste pointing out whack jobs be they frauds or genuine...

meh, just train if you are gonna train. share your sucesses if you like, but if you're getting results, share your mnethods and you'll get more points here. :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

. fat ****s

I didn't agree with anything this freak had to say......but when I saw that he had mastered the art of swearing on an internet forum, when all my swearing gets censored, I began to believe that MMA really does give a fighter superpowers....

[David Jamieson]

What are you ****ing talking about dude.
That is total bull****ing ****.

I do kungfu and my forum swearing is equal to any and unmatched by many. :p

[SifuAbel]

The difference is this, chum. Most MMAist don't do this for a hobby, they live the lifestyle. Most CMAers are fan boys who believe in Dim Mak, chi blasts, and that their sifu/sensei is invincable.



So sorry, I know you are responding to lung on this, but, wake up. I work at a self styled "modern club". Plenty of fattys and chicks at the place. Quite a few fattys in the BJJ class too. This illusion that MMA clubs are filled with thousands of super elite fighters is a joke. Its pretty much the same fighter-to-hobbyist ratio as any other place. And theres no shortage of the "I'm a bad mamma jamma" mentality amoung the Not-so-talented there too.

Are you an uber elite MMA fighter? :rolleyes:


This idea of MMA as the "master race" garbage is getting old. Sorry, you're not a super species.

[lkfmdc]

3 pages and not a single vote.... I got bored so I voted.... I run a mcdojo, because over one million have been served :D

[SifuAbel]

Congratulations, you've just accomplished absolutly nothing. Or, made a mockery of a mockery.

[lkfmdc]

Congratulations, you've just accomplished absolutly nothing.

That's pretty much a normal day here, isn't it? But you're right, I didn't contribute the gems of wisdom you have so far :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Put your glasses on , grand pa.

[Knifefighter]

I work at a self styled "modern club". Plenty of fattys and chicks at the place. Quite a few fattys in the BJJ class too. This illusion that MMA clubs are filled with thousands of super elite fighters is a joke. Its pretty much the same fighter-to-hobbyist ratio as any other place.
Is this a MMA facility or a fitness facility that offers "MMA & BJJ"?

The hard training at MMA facilities tend to weed out the not-so-serious martial artists, but keep the fighters.

The McDojo'ed fitness facilities that also offer "BJJ and MMA" are usually the places that attract the hobbiests and fantasy fightiers.

Same with most schools that emphasize self-defense, character development, and kids programs.

[lkfmdc]

the "hobbiests" are usually the people who actually pay their tuition and keep a place open.... if I counted on my fighters for an income I'd be living on the street

[SifuAbel]

Yes, knifefighter is an example of the "aryan" mentality some people like to indulge in when they take up MA.

[BlueTravesty]

This snooty "looking-down-your-nose" at hobbyists and "fanboys" makes me laugh and groan at the same time.

To both MMAists and CMAists alike- If you're doing it because you love it and enjoy it, you're every bit as much of a fanboy/hobbyist as me, or the CEO who denies pension plans to hundreds of employees so he can rent out a prime golf course, or that fat sweaty guy with the muttonchop sideburns who shows up at Comic Book conventions dressed as Wonder Woman. We just happen to practice something MUCH less relevant to modern life than comic book guy and the CEO.

[Knifefighter]

Yes, knifefighter is an example of the "aryan" mentality some people like to indulge in when they take up MA.
Really??

So you are saying this is a MMA fighting facility, rather than a fitness-oriented facility that offers these classes as part of the fitness offerings?

[lunghushan]

It seems like you're forgetting something about MA, which isn't the MA, but is the way it is practiced.

Like when I was a teenager we practiced in a school run out of our sifu's garage, and it was very much a family oriented thing. It was a friend get together if you will, it wasn't just martial arts -- it wasn't a McSchool factory farm -- it was a gathering and get-together.

Now everything is all commercialized, but it seems the same, a lot of people pay for an experience. That experience might be the MMA go fighting thing, or the tai chi - aikido learn to be who knows what thing -- or the karate character thing ...

In other words, people aren't just paying to learn MA, they're paying for an experience. They want something, to be a great fighter, or to be a better person, or to feel high and mighty, whatever.

In other words, as a modern day MA school teacher you're selling a dream. Hardly any school actually teaches realistic self defense -- they're all lacking in some way. MMA doesn't teach weapons -- CMA doesn't usually teach the most realistic fighting -- tai chi probably will never be able to self defend.

No teacher would actually come out and say, "Yes, I am selling a dream and I'm full of B.S." because then nobody would study with them.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I voted yes. Fry Guys and all. Grandmaster Grimace trains us hard, however. None of that whack Ronald MacDonald ****. I'm talking straight-up Mayor McCheese streetfighting. But that goddam Hamburgler keeps stealing my Kwan-dao.

I'm gonna kill that McMutha****a!!!!

[rogue]

In other words, people aren't just paying to learn MA, they're paying for an experience.

I agree that's as good a way at looking at it as any. I also don't see anything wrong with that as long as, once again, everybody knows that going in.

[lkfmdc]

I've written articles about this in the past, the "sin" of the "managed studio" is that the gurus of the industry tell them to be all things to all people at all times. "Dumb down" your classes for people who don't want to work hard, take out the contact for the people afraid of contact, etc...

Martial arts training sure does have a fitness value, and some people want that value without the contact element. That isn't "evil" and there's nothing wrong IMO with offering a fitness "no contact" program if that is what you call it and how you explain it. If you do that program and convince a student they are learning to fight because the hit a bag 2x a week and you are an arse...

[rogue]

There's nothing cooler than politically correct none contact self defense classes. Of course everybody gets a certificate telling them they can defend themselves.

[lunghushan]

Personally, I don't mind a no contact element because take the average sparring session in a school, where you're sparring with multiple people even in a point fighting school where there's contact to the face or body.

Your gloves punch 8-10 people over the course of sparring. Meantime you get contact with their body, saliva and blood on your gloves.

It transfers disease from person to person. From a hygiene standpoint, it's terrible. Not to mention a lot of places train barefoot, so you're trading who knows what on your feet as well.

When martial arts was trained as a family thing, there wasn't as much disease transmission. Now, there is a ton of disease transmission.

When I used to train in NY doing judo or karate or whatever, I always had a hard time getting rid of athletes foot because I'd pick it up in every locker room and the floor. I was constantly disinfecting my feet and it was a big pain. I didn't even think about other things like hepatitis, HIV, herpes, etc.

So personally, IMHO, martial arts should NOT be taught this way in a big mass environment with a lot of body contact. It's just a very bad idea.

[SifuAbel]

Really??

So you are saying this is a MMA fighting facility, rather than a fitness-oriented facility that offers these classes as part of the fitness offerings?


LOL, you really aren't getting what I'm saying, do you, Mr. Ubermench.

So simple, so sad. :rolleyes:

[The Xia]

Although SifuAbel dresses his point with his signature venom, I understand what he is saying. The truth is that not everyone in a MMA class is Tito Ortiz.

[lunghushan]

Although SifuAbel dresses his point with his signature venom, I understand what he is saying. The truth is that not everyone in a MMA class is Tito Ortiz.

That's a pretty good point. Like at Matt Hume's school when I visited there were like 5 people training to be fighters in that particular class. There were also at least 50 other kickboxers, and about 30 other grapplers in various levels from just starting out to okay, but not pro level.

Of the 5 people training to be fighters, one actually fought in UFCs and won (Ivan Salaverry). Everybody else is not at that level. I think there was one Pride guy that showed potential that got flown in from Japan.

So 2/80 people was UFC material at least that night. And this is one of the best places in the Seattle area for MMA people. I don't know anywhere else that pro fighters train. So considering there's a lot of other kickboxing places, BJJ places and all that, you've got 2/ (80 + ??? probably hundreds) of people who are at the level of UFC or Pride around here. There are others who do fight at lower levels, but I don't know any other UFC/Pride dudes around here.

[rogue]

I'm not a fighter but I think I've benefited from using some of those training methods.


Personally, I don't mind a no contact element because take the average sparring session in a school, where you're sparring with multiple people even in a point fighting school where there's contact to the face or body.
And there is nothing wrong with that as long as you are not thinking that you'll be able to use what you're doing in any kind of fight.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Your gloves punch 8-10 people over the course of sparring. Meantime you get contact with their body, saliva and blood on your gloves.

It transfers disease from person to person. From a hygiene standpoint, it's terrible. Not to mention a lot of places train barefoot, so you're trading who knows what on your feet as well.

When martial arts was trained as a family thing, there wasn't as much disease transmission. Now, there is a ton of disease transmission.

When I used to train in NY doing judo or karate or whatever, I always had a hard time getting rid of athletes foot because I'd pick it up in every locker room and the floor. I was constantly disinfecting my feet and it was a big pain. I didn't even think about other things like hepatitis, HIV, herpes, etc.

So personally, IMHO, martial arts should NOT be taught this way in a big mass environment with a lot of body contact. It's just a very bad idea.

Lung....seriously.....this whole body condom sparring environment stuff you've been preachin'---it's getting real old, real quick.

Maybe you're excessive compulsive? Then try taking up a new hobby. Say, knitting for instance....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can't even imagine why you're training. In a "real" fight, when you get cornered in an alley, you won't even be wearing gloves.

Are you just going to say: "Hey guys. Let's not do this. If I trade blows with you, then with him, it's like I've been sleeping with you, and you with me, and both of us with that guy."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the whole argument you're making is gay, and fighting is dirty.

Get over it.