Changed my mind about teaching Kids

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, my daughter was raised in the gymnastics life style. She was only really into martial arts when she was like 7-8 years old. after that she would only free spar with me.

She can really fight well, in the style I might add (Strange since she knows no forms, or never did any of the drills), but ultimately I think she got much more from gymnastics.

I had a talk reacently with a father that I know. I dated his ex wife for a while during thier divorce (Do a search, I know i posted about her - Debbie).

Anyway, I was trying to get him to put his Son in Kung Fu, because he was such a natural at it. He picked up the Wu Bu Quan form, and did it really GOOD at 2-1/2 years old, just by watching me, with no instruction.

The father told me he would rather have his son in Gymnastics for a number of reasons. The first is Gymnasts are way better conditioned than Kids in martial arts, and two he has seen many kids in martial arts go around kicking thier freinds, punching them and much of thier play is fighting oriented. We are teaching them the tools of violence, but telling them not to use them before theya r emature enough to really understand (What do you think is going to happen)

His point is that you can get all the discapline, and self esteem and what not from gynmastics, without all of the drawbacks of kids in martial arts.

After thinking of this, and seeing how my daughter grew up, I really think that he is right.

So basically I have changed my stance on the whole teaching Kids martial arts, and i now think it is better to put them in gymnastics.

If they want something martial, let them join wrestling later when they get to high school.

Eventually if the intrest is there, they will find Kung Fu later in life.

[The Xia]

I cannot agree with this. Each child is different. If this kid likes doing Kung Fu, then why not let him. I mean it's about him right? I know I know violence, fighting, politically incorrect, etc but the truth is that kids have been doing martial arts for a long time. Many famous masters started as kids. Why force him to do gymnastics if he prefers Kung Fu? If he prefers gymnastics, then that's a different story. I also can't agree with the idea of starting with gymnastics, and if they get interested in martial arts letting them join the high school wrestling club, then letting them find Kung Fu later. Assuming that the kid did like gymnastics, the part that I disagree with is the wrestling. If the person is interested in martial arts, why does he have to do high school wrestling? If that's what he wants fine but what if he wants Judo for example. Why can't he join a Judo dojo instead? :confused:

[5Animals1Path]

Kids'll hit each other no matter what they're doing. From the kids I've seen who train, they know the difference between playing and when someone's being violent. Granted, this is probably because their parents and teachers not only tell them to control themselves, but because said adults show control over themselves. They don't start the problems, they finish them, and they make very certain their children do the same.

Best example I can use is this kid who comes to our school on Tuesdays. He's pretty short for his age, and knowing his dad, he's never gonna hit a real growth spurt. He's your average 6th grader, likes to laugh, likes his friends, and likes to play. Of course, he can also fling insults, but won't do it unless he's provoked. He can also knock down guys who're 2 years older them him, but only does when they started it.

A couple of years ago, I'd have thought this was just an extrodinary case of a kid with awesome self control. Then I heard the story about how his dad taught him not to screw around with guns. I don't know how young he was, but his dad took the kid out one day with his six shooter. He made the kid go up and punch a tree as hard as he could. "Hurts, right?" The kid agreed. The father picked up the gun and fired a round into a tree. He made sure the kid heard the sound, and saw what it did to the tree. Then, he made his son hold the gun, and fire it at the tree himself. He said "You see what that can do to the tree? This is not a toy." The story doesn't have much to do with fighting, but needless to say, the little dude is now very respectful of power.

So, bottom line, kids can be taught just about anything. You've just gotta make a point of making sure they have a real respect for people and power, and not just monkeying the things you tell them back at you.

[Shaolin Wookie]

One note, RD.

The lack of discipline of which you are speaking--it's a product of school training. A student sees his teacher how often? In America....not that much. In a traditional school in China....every day for a couple of hours. Gymnastics coaches take a personal interest in students. Most American instructors won't make that same committment. They expect the student to make the committment. So the pressure is placed on teh student not by the coach, but by ambition (to be good) and interest. I've known gymnasts who thought gymnastics was life, but had very little enthusiasm about that life. It became a routine.

If you were to teach your kid martial arts, even were he/she violent and aggressive, that kid would probably not use his/her martial arts recklessly, simply for the fact that your prohibition bears immediate consequences---and it would incur a parent's displeasure, which amounts to punishment. American schools don't really "punish" students....not like Chinese ones. School training just doesn't reinforce it so immediately, but school training is really all that most of us have (i.e. our parents weren't MA's).

[Shaolin Wookie]

Many gymnasts consider their coaches "parents" in a sense. And they are often in better shape, b/c their drills demand it.....and their drills are demanded by domineering and demanding coaches.

Not exactly a "learning" environment. And gymnastics does nothing for the mind. Martial Arts (almost any) do.

I wouldn't say either one is safer, but MA will put less stress on the joints at an early age.

And also--flips and arials won't necessarily make a better MA at a later date. Gymnastics is cosmetic. It's kind of like ballet. I don't like it, but when I see it, I understand what a lifetime of dedication to that art must have been like. I respect it. But I don't actually see a connection between hte music and the dance expressed in anything the dancer is doing---not like a great hip-hop dancer. He has the same committment....but I see his passion for what he's doing expressed through his actions.

Gymnastics is a cookie-cutter. Kung-fu is an oven.

[SPJ]

kids will always be kids.

gym or any other kind of sports will give them some balance and conditioning.

why not both gym and MA.

MA is always an "extention" of sports.

or sports may be part of MA "practice".

moi like swim.

:)

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol most adults dont have the self control to learn martial arts without trying to go around kicking everyones collective ass. what do you expect from children?

[BoulderDawg]

One saturday I was at home (Like today!:D ) flippin channels and I came across this cartoon. I don't know the name of it but it is about a extended black family. Anyway I saw it was about Kung Fu so I started watching it.

The kids wanted to take Kung Fu. So the parents relented and they started a program. It was a very traditional program so the kids got board and wanted to join another program where all their friends were going and getting black belts they did not earn.

It was actually a very good show. The parents held the line and told the kids to stay in the program they were in. In the end the kids saw how much more benefits they received by hanging with it.

**********

A kid's program teaches a lot of things outside of MA. I wish there was one at our school. Also, financial it makes sense for any school.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOi0wGqROac

kids do not know what they really want till much later.

however, they are very much impressionable between 6 to 8 years old.

nothing can be serious at this age.

some sports, some music lessons, some MA lessons,

--

they may decide what they want to persue for life later.

--

:)

[lunghushan]

Personally I think that we spoil kids in this country so they grow up to be whiny, coddled adults and have a hard time entering the work force and actually doing WORK because they spent 20+ years being spoiled by their parents.

So I for one think that we should re-instate child labor. If they want martial arts classes they should pay for the classes themselves.

;)

No, seriously, I don't know. I think kids are usually a little too young to get much out of martial arts until they're teenagers.

[Fuzzly]

One reason I love my school so much is because my Sifu cares for his students like they are his family. (Of course, this is my opinion, lol, and meant to be a good thing!) After I had my knee surgery he called me up to make sure I was doing OK. Of course, I was hopped up on pain meds, but it made me feel better to know that he wishes me well.

As for our children's (is that the right way to spell/use that word?) class for kids who are really young (we called it Mighty Mights I believe, the last time I saw the flier/schedule) we just don't teach them to fight. A lot of it is character development. They learn to focus where appropriate, some respect (lol, that kinda sounds like we beat them up, doesn't it? Don't worry, we wouldn't imagine doing it!), and that the skills they learn are not toys. They also learn how to work as a team, confidence, and other things. In fact, I am really impressed with our children's program. I recommended it to a lady I worked with in a lab, and she thanks me every time I see her! Hehe.

I think a lot of the kids look up to Sifu like an uncle or something. It always makes me smile because how excited they all get when he comes into a room. I do remember one time, a mother came in and said that her child had been using his Kung Fu roughly with another/other kid/s. Sifu gave him a lecture, and the kid really seemed to understand why it wasn't right for him to use his Kung Fu in that manner.

I love helping out the kid's class. A lot of the games they play are fun, dangit. And since I usually just join their class if requested, I get to play as well! I dunno, maybe I'm just really a 4-6 year old kid in a college student body!


Just a note, anything dealing with the program and the people involved is my opinion/memory. Both are subject to being wrong and not representative of what the goals/actions of the program/school really are. =)

[Water Dragon]

I'm a big believer in MA for kids. I help teach the kids program at the Judo dojo, and I love it. I get the younger kids, 5-8, and the beginners. We work on rolls, some ground stuff, and a little throwing. We concentrate on having fun, listening, courtesy, working towards goals (belts) competition, etc. At that age, just being on the mat is a benefit. The kids learn so much more than just fighting.

[Royal Dragon]

Many gymnasts consider their coaches "parents" in a sense. And they are often in better shape, b/c their drills demand it.....and their drills are demanded by domineering and demanding coaches.

Reply]
I agree, except for the negative spin you put on it with the word "Dominerring". Gymnastics is a much more fun, and positive experiance. I have not seen to many "Domineering" coaches in my time.

>>Not exactly a "learning" environment. And gymnastics does nothing for the mind. Martial Arts (almost any) do.

Reply]
Not so. Gymnasts have far superior levels of concentratin, focus, determination and drive to succeed than ANY kids martial arts program I have ever seen....and much more than most adult programs.

>>I wouldn't say either one is safer, but MA will put less stress on the joints at an early age.

Reply]
That depends on the gym. In a park district, or grade shool/High school enviroment, where there are no foam pits to learn skills in, I'd agree, but in a full blown competitive Gymnastics club where there ARE full foam pits, and resi pits this is not the case. There is so much floor padding, and so much pit and tramp use, that a club gymnasts arguably has less joint impact than someone even in basketball would.

>>And also--flips and arials won't necessarily make a better MA at a later date.

Reply]
The physical conditioning defenetly does, and the high level of body awareness most certianly does as well.

>>Gymnastics is cosmetic. It's kind of like ballet.

Reply]
No, sorry you are wrong. Haveing been a gymnastics Father, and watching my daughter grow up in the gymnastics world I can tell you that gymnastics is a very deep physical science. It is very internal (especially the old school Romanian system my daughter came up in) that is focused on body structure, alignment and ultra refined mechanics. A mear cosmetic persuit cannot develope the incredible almost graviy defiying skills seen by those athletes.

>>I don't like it, but when I see it, I understand what a lifetime of dedication to that art must have been like. I respect it.

Reply]
Ok, we all have our opinions.

>>But I don't actually see a connection between hte music and the dance expressed in anything the dancer is doing---not like a great hip-hop dancer. He has the same committment....but I see his passion for what he's doing expressed through his actions.

Reply]
Yes, you are right. Gymnasts are very *Technical* dancers. My daughter does some Hip Hop/funkey dancing as well, and you really see the difference between her, and the dance her teammates show. She moves to the music, and very rarley does the same dance routine twice in competiton, or practice. All the other girls do a pre choreagraphed dance bit, where Melissa has been tending to just freestyle the dance this last season. Her perfromances have had standing ovations.

>Gymnastics is a cookie-cutter. Kung-fu is an oven.

Reply]
Well, again you show your lack of experiance here. Gymnastics is a style of free expression. The gynmast developes thier own own routines, and express thier personalities individually, Many time this is even so at lower levels of the Clubs.

Most martial arts on the other hand require EVERY student to learn and perform the exact same forms, Kata's or standardised routines reguardless of personal skill, ability or intrest. If anything, the martial arts are the cookie cutter, and Gymnastics is the oven.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm a big believer in MA for kids. I help teach the kids program at the Judo dojo, and I love it. I get the younger kids, 5-8, and the beginners. We work on rolls, some ground stuff, and a little throwing. We concentrate on having fun, listening, courtesy, working towards goals (belts) competition, etc. At that age, just being on the mat is a benefit. The kids learn so much more than just fighting.

Reply]
Maybe so, but Gymnastics is vastly superior in all ranges of developement, and you don't have to shatter a kids innocence by teaching them the ways of violence at an early age.

The only time I would recomend it over gymnastics is if you live in a violent neighborhood,and cannot get out for some reason. If that is the case, you probably can't afford either anyway....

[YouKnowWho]

Eventually if the intrest is there, they will find Kung Fu later in life.
A teacher should never try to approach to students. Even a student comes to him, the teacher should reject him on the 1st and 2nd visit, If he keeps coming back then that student may be worthwhile teaching.

A boy wanted to learn CMA from a master. The master kept telling him to come back after a week. After many weeks, finally the boy asked the master, "I don't mind to come back next week but when are you going to teach me?" The master said, "I don't feel you have 'strong desire' about learning yet". The boy asked, "What's strong desire?" The master held the boy's head into the water for 2 minutes and then let him go. "How do you feel right now?" asked the master. The boy said, "I have strong desire to breath". The master then said, "When you have strong desire like this toward CMA then come back."

[BoulderDawg]

A teacher should never try to approach to students. Even a student comes to him, the teacher should reject him on the 1st and 2nd visit, If he keeps coming back then that student may be worthwhile teaching.

A boy wanted to learn CMA from a master. The master kept telling him to come back after a week. After many weeks, finally the boy asked the master, "I don't mind to come back next week but when are you going to teach me?" The master said, "I don't feel you have 'strong desire' about learning yet". The boy asked, "What's strong desire?" The master held the boy's head into the water for 2 minutes and then let him go. "How do you feel right now?" asked the master. The boy said, "I have strong desire to breath". The master then said, "When you have strong desire like this toward CMA then come back."

I'm assuming this Master did not make his living from teaching MA. Otherwise, he would starve very quickly!:D

[lunghushan]

A teacher should never try to approach to students. Even a student comes to him, the teacher should reject him on the 1st and 2nd visit, If he keeps coming back then that student may be worthwhile teaching.


Yeah, this is a pretty funny one. I think it's only in China where they have that 3 question tradition. If you did that in the U.S. or most of the West, I think usually people would just take off.

[SPJ]

A teacher should never try to approach to students. Even a student comes to him, the teacher should reject him on the 1st and 2nd visit, If he keeps coming back then that student may be worthwhile teaching.

A boy wanted to learn CMA from a master. The master kept telling him to come back after a week. After many weeks, finally the boy asked the master, "I don't mind to come back next week but when are you going to teach me?" The master said, "I don't feel you have 'strong desire' about learning yet". The boy asked, "What's strong desire?" The master held the boy's head into the water for 2 minutes and then let him go. "How do you feel right now?" asked the master. The boy said, "I have strong desire to breath". The master then said, "When you have strong desire like this toward CMA then come back."

good post.

in the old time, this is guite real. if you want to learn the trade, you have to show the sincerety. some would be asked to sweep the floor or carry the buckets of water for sometime. and yet the MA lessons are not started yet but the conditioning did. and then 6 months or 2 years of horse riding stance before anything else.

:)

[lunghushan]

good post.

in the old time, this is guite real. if you want to learn the trade, you have to show the sincerety. some would be asked to sweep the floor or carry the buckets of water for sometime. and yet the MA lessons are not started yet but the conditioning did. and then 6 months or 2 years of horse riding stance before anything else.

:)

Yeah but the thing they don't tell you is that this is a cultural tradition, and everybody knows this is the drill. It's not a U.S. or Western cultural tradition, so if you do this people will think you're a bit odd. Unless they've watched the karate kid and actually believe it.

Try dunking some kid's head in water for a couple of minutes and you'll probably be arrested.

[The Xia]

A teacher should never try to approach to students. Even a student comes to him, the teacher should reject him on the 1st and 2nd visit, If he keeps coming back then that student may be worthwhile teaching.

A boy wanted to learn CMA from a master. The master kept telling him to come back after a week. After many weeks, finally the boy asked the master, "I don't mind to come back next week but when are you going to teach me?" The master said, "I don't feel you have 'strong desire' about learning yet". The boy asked, "What's strong desire?" The master held the boy's head into the water for 2 minutes and then let him go. "How do you feel right now?" asked the master. The boy said, "I have strong desire to breath". The master then said, "When you have strong desire like this toward CMA then come back."

good post.

in the old time, this is guite real. if you want to learn the trade, you have to show the sincerety. some would be asked to sweep the floor or carry the buckets of water for sometime. and yet the MA lessons are not started yet but the conditioning did. and then 6 months or 2 years of horse riding stance before anything else.

:)
We have stories (like the above one that YouKnowWho shared) about this sort of thing but I’ve seen no evidence that this happened to the majority of CMA practitioners throughout history. The usual introductions to CMA that I see from history are starting after being recruited by revolutionary organizations, being born into it with a father or another family member as a sifu, and in terms of the martial temple angle, learning as a monk or nun. As for the horse stance and basics before other kinds of training thing, yes it served the function of weeding how the faint of heart but the purpose is to create a foundation to build upon.

[lunghushan]

We have stories (like the above one that YouKnowWho shared) about this sort of thing but I’ve seen no evidence that this happened to the majority of CMA practitioners throughout history.

I think there's a good point though about the person really wanting it, because otherwise they will probably just drop out.

[The Xia]

Well to get good you have to train hard. There is no question about that but I tend to think most quitters (a better word in this situation) weren't people who were turned away by sifus but people who dropped out after tasting real training.

[Fuzzly]

Of course everyone is going to, have their own opinions, so outside of a scientific experiment, it's going to be hard to change anyone's mind.

My sisters were in gymnastics for a few years. In fact they might still be in it. The body mechanics they learn were fantastic. I don't know if they were any more disciplined or focused, because at the time I was a younger teenager and the world=me.


I think a child is going to do better in whatever they like to do. I don't have kids, so please feel free to argue this. I just noticed that specifically in our Kwoon, when a child plays their favorite game, they seem more focused and willing to listen.



Sorry for filling this thread wit anecdotes, but I know this one kid at our school, and he LOVES our "obstacle course" game. It's where we take various equipment, set it up, and they have to do certain things at certain equipment. Like, they have to jump over a noodle, then balance on a tombstone, then somersault over this, then do 10 punches/kicks here. It makes me smile, whenever he comes in he is always worried/curious if they are going to play his favorite game.

[The Xia]

I think a child is going to do better in whatever they like to do.
Bingo! I think that's the real essence of this. In my opinion, let the child choose the activity but it’s up to you to ensure quality.

[Fuzzly]

it’s up to you to ensure quality.

Quoted for truth.

[SevenStar]

The lack of discipline of which you are speaking--it's a product of school training. A student sees his teacher how often? In America....not that much. In a traditional school in China....every day for a couple of hours. Gymnastics coaches take a personal interest in students. Most American instructors won't make that same committment. They expect the student to make the committment. So the pressure is placed on teh student not by the coach, but by ambition (to be good) and interest. I've known gymnasts who thought gymnastics was life, but had very little enthusiasm about that life. It became a routine.


a teacher will not, but a coach will. perhaps this is why he suggested wrestling. IME, wrestling, judo, boxing and muay thai coaches are all very involved with those they train.

[True_Tech]

One saturday I was at home (Like today!:D ) flippin channels and I came across this cartoon. I don't know the name of it but it is about a extended black family. Anyway I saw it was about Kung Fu so I started watching it.

The kids wanted to take Kung Fu. So the parents relented and they started a program. It was a very traditional program so the kids got board and wanted to join another program where all their friends were going and getting black belts they did not earn.

It was actually a very good show. The parents held the line and told the kids to stay in the program they were in. In the end the kids saw how much more benefits they received by hanging with it.

**********

A kid's program teaches a lot of things outside of MA. I wish there was one at our school. Also, financial it makes sense for any school.
i know the show you're talkin about its called the proud family i remember that episode they went and saw a movie and wanted to learn karate like me and my cousins when we watched old shaw brothers vids, of course i waited till now to look into learning because i didn't want to do homework as a kid lol