My dog bit the neighbor girl

[Chief Fox]

I need help everyone. My dog is 13 years old. He's been agressive his whole life. He's got Alpha dog syndrom. Meaning, he tries to dominate any other dog or person he comes in contact with. We took him to classes for this and have learned how to handle him. This was over 10 years ago. He's been a great dog but he only listens to me pretty much.

This weekend My family and I went to our friends house over night. We asked the neighbors to come by and let the dog out. They're super nice people.

Apparently when they came in, my dog was laying on the sofa. The girls father said come on Rado (RAH DO) That's my dogs name. He said let's go out and went to the back door to open it. Rado didn't move. His young daughter went over to him to scoot him off the sofa and he bit her. Not too bad but bad enough that they took her to see a doctor.

I'm thinking that he's getting more and more cranky in his old age. He bit my wife once and my son is afraid of him.

I guess the answer is pretty clear but I wanted to see what you all thought.

What would you do?

[Oso]

well, simply, don't let anyone else have responsibility for him. dogs are animals and still unpredictable even as pets. I don't think it's time to put him down or anything. he's just your problem, not anyone elses.

my girlfriend's dog is the same way. he bit an old lady once. now, she doesn't let anyone watch him who hasn't been around him a whole lot. he's really a big fat lab who would rather eat than anything else but if someone strange approaches him too quickly, he snaps at them.

bottom line, you are responsible for his actions in public and to other people in your house. hopefully your nieghbors aren't contemplating a law suit but you should probably offer to pay the medical bills.

[Chief Fox]

Thanks man. Just now I was thinking, what if it was the other way around? What if it was my neighbors dog that bit my daughter? How would I feel about that?

I see what you're saying though. I do take responsibility for all of his actions but I can't be here all the time. My kids come home from school and bring their friends. What if he was to bite one of them?

This has got me freaked out.

[unkokusai]

Um, did you let the neighbor know the dog's temperment? Might have been better not to let anyone else into his territory while you were away...

[Oso]

well, your thinking about it now. if you are really that worried about it then you will have to set up some rules about how your kids and their friends are going to be around him. or have your kids move him to the yard or basement/garage while they have friends over.

what breed is he?

[Chief Fox]

Um, did you let the neighbor know the dog's temperment? Might have been better not to let anyone else into his territory while you were away...
Yes, of course. They know him. They've taken care of him before. They live right next door. Either way, it's too late to worry about that now.

[lunghushan]

Nobody can tell you what to do -- he's your dog. But he shouldn't be biting people.

You have to train dogs from a young age to act appropriately. It's obvious then you didn't train him, or he's somehow defective.

At any rate, sorry this happened to you. But in my humble opinion there are no bad dogs, only bad trainers. I've heard of dogs that are just defective and can't be trained, but I never met one.

[TenTigers]

Dogs look at everyone in the family as part of the same litter. (not sure whether they think we're dogs, or that they think they're people. My dog thinks he's a person.)Strangers are not from his litter so will not be treated likewise.

Ok, here's what ya do-
rub his entire skin and body including chest cavity with salt
then marinade in shaoxing wine,garlic,soy sauce-for three days.
cut into smaller pieces, steam for about forty minutes, let cool.
dip pieces in egg then in waterchestnut/garlic powder then fry in wok.
make sauce out of remaining marinade and hoisin and lat jiew yao, you can add cornstarch to thicken if you like,
arrange on bed of lettuce,and drizzle sauce over Rado and serve.

[Chief Fox]

Nobody can tell you what to do -- he's your dog. But he shouldn't be biting people.

You have to train dogs from a young age to act appropriately. It's obvious then you didn't train him, or he's somehow defective.

At any rate, sorry this happened to you. But in my humble opinion there are no bad dogs, only bad trainers. I've heard of dogs that are just defective and can't be trained, but I never met one.

I got him from the pound when he was about 6 months old. He was a stray. I've had him for over 12 years. He's always been agressive. I took him to a class once a week for 12 weeks to train him. I follow the principles of that class to this day.

I don't know if he's deffective or was just abused before I got him. Or if I've done anything wrong in training him. All I know is, this can't happen again.

Thanks

[BoulderDawg]

Very simple,

Cage the dog while you're away or there are children present or put him to sleep. Those seem like your only choices.

[lunghushan]

I got him from the pound when he was about 6 months old. He was a stray. I've had him for over 12 years. He's always been agressive. I took him to a class once a week for 12 weeks to train him. I follow the principles of that class to this day.

I don't know if he's deffective or was just abused before I got him. Or if I've done anything wrong in training him. All I know is, this can't happen again.

Thanks

6 months is pretty young. The thing is, I've been around a ton of dogs -- even breeds that are supposed to be aggressive and bite like pit bulls and Rottweilers, and usually it's a training thing. If you train them to be aggressive and stuff, then usually they'll be aggressive. If they are aggressive and you don't train them to be controlled, then they'll run wild. If you train them to be nice, then usually they are nice. I haven't run into any exceptions to this rule.

I've had room-mates that didn't even train the dog to go to the bathroom properly.

Anyways, when people start blaming the dog, I get a little bit mad. In fact, whenever somebody says, "Bad dog," I always tell them the same thing.

But I'd have to agree with BoulderDawg, you'll need to cage this one or put him on a leash out back or something, because I don't think you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Anyways, it's obvious you don't live in Seattle or San Francisco or something because the dog would probably already be put to sleep by now. I don't think you have to put it to sleep but you will probably have to keep it chained up.

[Chief Fox]

Dogs look at everyone in the family as part of the same litter. (not sure whether they think we're dogs, or that they think they're people. My dog thinks he's a person.)Strangers are not from his litter so will not be treated likewise.

Ok, here's what ya do-
rub his entire skin and body including chest cavity with salt
then marinade in shaoxing wine,garlic,soy sauce-for three days.
cut into smaller pieces, steam for about forty minutes, let cool.
dip pieces in egg then in waterchestnut/garlic powder then fry in wok.
make sauce out of remaining marinade and hoisin and lat jiew yao, you can add cornstarch to thicken if you like,
arrange on bed of lettuce,and drizzle sauce over Rado and serve.
I appreciate the humor.

[lunghushan]

I appreciate the humor.

Acckkk ... we're not in China.

Although I was visiting a friend and the neighbors dog was barking out of control the other day, so I yelled over, "Shut up or we'll eat you." The dog actually stopped barking.

But the neighbor lady was coming out of her house at that exact moment and caught the comment. She didn't look too happy.

[YouKnowWho]

I wish my dog could be aggressive as yours. My dog always have a ball in her mouth even barking to strangers. She just wants to play ball 24-7.

[Oso]

you're right it can't happen again. but, you have to be the one to control the situations you put him in. if he was abused as a pup, that can stay with a dog their entire lives no matter what training you put them through and it's not really their fault.

if he is normally fine around you and your family then just don't let him around anyone else. pretty simple and you don't have to put him down.

[Fuzzly]

My first dog that I could actually remember was a Boxer named Roscoe. He was huge for a boxer. Anyways, I loved that **** dog. When our house flooded my dad went into our backyard (which was where 2 creeks met) and saved him. Before that, the dumb galoot fell through some ice and my mom went in and saved him. That dog had been through more **** w/ me and my mom/sisters than anyone else. Unfortunately he got brain cancer, and started to forgot who we were and would get aggressive. We had to put him down.


As for your dog, kennel him when there are guests over. You can not take any chances, especially with a dog that old. Dogs seem to get a little crazy in old age, like people.


Thanks for getting your dog at a shelter, I helped run a dog rescue out of my home a couple years back. There are some wonderful dogs out there who never get adopted because people seem to think that stray/abandoned dogs must be damaged goods or something.

[Three Harmonies]

Sorry if this ruffles feathers, but the dog is untrustworthy and should be destroyed. Period. My father is a vet and I grew up loving animals, but when you have any animal attacking kids (or adults) in an unprovocked manner, needs to be destroyed. If it was my kid, the dog would be shot!

[Oso]

naw, jake, that's too harsh a response to a single incident. and, from the dog's perspective, it was provoked. would you want someone shoving you out of a bed you were comfortably sleeping in for no good reason?

and, think about it, at 91 years of age: how cranky are you going to be?

if the dog couldn't be trusted with anyone, then yea, put him down. but for one incident he should be allowed to be left alone but kept from situations like the above.

my dad is about to retire from a 25 year stint as an animal control officer. i used to ride with him all the time when i was in HS and still do once or twice a year.

[David Jamieson]

put him down.

bad news i know, but you can't ahve a biter living in your house and you can't have a biter around kids.

the dog either goes in a cage out back or is put down.

probably less cruel to destroy the animal.

[Water Dragon]

You have two options.

1. Put the dog down.
2. From now on the dog is either crated, or leashed next to you. Even in the house, no exceptions.

The dog is biting because you have not established dominance. The dog thinks he is the boss, so he gets to make the rules. The kid broke a rule, the dog put her back in line. He did what he was supposed to do. That's the root of the problem.

[David Jamieson]

You have two options.

1. Put the dog down.
2. From now on the dog is either crated, or leashed next to you. Even in the house, no exceptions.

The dog is biting because you have not established dominance. The dog thinks he is the boss, so he gets to make the rules. The kid broke a rule, the dog put her back in line. He did what he was supposed to do. That's the root of the problem.

This is the crux of it.

there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. Not that you're a bad owner chief, you probably just don't have the necessary understanding of how to train a dog and how to establish the rules with a dog. many people don't so you are not alone and very few people understand animals at the level they need to be understood at. Instead, many of us ascribe human traits to animals in order for us to think we have some grasp of whatt hey think and feel. this is refered to as anthropomorphizing and is the very thing that leads to the situation you find yourself in now.

[Water Dragon]

Exactly. I'm guessing there were times in the past where the dog has growled, and the responce was something to the effect of, "don'[t mess with him, he might bite." Anything like that reinforces the dog's idea that he has clout. He growled, the other person backed off, so the dog must have higher status than that person.

Dogs are even more worried about status than women.

This happens enough, and the dog starts to think he's right up there in the pecking order. My guess is he acknowledges you as the Alpha, but he has the number 2 spot. So he has the right to put anyone else in their place.

My two year old used to boss around our 85 pound American Bulldog. It was hilarious. That dog did whatever the kid told her to do, and the kid made her do stuff all day long. The dog knew it's place.

What you have to remember is that dogs do not believe in equality.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I love dogs more than most people but I would have to say that I would have to either crate this dog or put him down. As Chief Fox stated in the beginning of this thread this is not the first time the dog has bitten someone. The dog bit his wife previously and his son is afraid of the dog. Sorry, but this indicates a serious problem and would make me shy away from keeping or doing anything more with this particular dog. Of course, I do not know all of the circumstances but, if I had a do which frightened my children and had bitten my wife and now bit my neighbors daughter then I would be getting rid of that dog.

[lunghushan]

I think we're giving Chief Fox too hard a time. If it were your dog and you had it for 13 years what would you want to do?

Anyways, there's these dogs, Blue something ... some kind of terrier or something. A friend of ours had one, and it was usually just a normal nice dog. Never bit anybody. Our friend used to take it bird hunting.

But a neighbors baby somehow got loose from the house and crawled into their yard through the fence. Well the dog wouldn't let anybody near the baby -- it growled and went for anybody who tried to get close. They had to wait until our friend got home. Seems like that would make a good family dog.

[Chief Fox]

I don't think anyone is giving me a hard time. When I was a kid, we had a great dog. She was playful, fun and completely docile. A great member of the family.

The 12 week class that I took my dog to really was a class for humans. How to understand dog behavior and how to adjust that behavior.

It turns out, we were doing everything wrong in the way that we handled this dog. We would let him lead us on the leash, he would run out of the house first and even sit on all of the furniture.

After the class, (over 10 years ago) all of that changed. The trainer told us that we were treating this dog like an equal and in some cases letting him be dominant. Ever since the class I've had to constantly let the dog know who was boss. He's no longer allowed on the furniture, he must sit before going outside. When on the leash he stays right at my heel. I even stare him down on a regular basis. I stand over him until he rolls on his back. I even get on him and growl at him sometimes.

The thing is, I'm the only one that does all of this.

He recognizes me as the alpha but does try to dominate everyone else. This is the problem. We asked the trainer about this and she said that he is just an Alpha dog.

I've pretty much made my decision.

It's hard though. This dog has been a great friend to me. He's run countless miles with me and has been good with the kids.

Over the past few years, he has slowed down a lot and he's gotten grumpier (less willing to be dominated by me).

What makes it even harder is, 2 months ago he got sick and alsmost died. After several trips to the vet and medicating him, we have finally nursed him back to health. Then he goes and bites the neighbor girl.

The fact is, if he had bitten my daughter or son he would already be gone. I'm not going to wait for that to happen.

Thanks to all for their opinions and comments.

[Black Jack II]

I know a bit about dogs, at least from the working breed perspective, as one side of my family has raised specific lines. APBT and Scot-Style American Bulldogs.

The only recourse you have is to put it down. It's not easy to hear but honestly it sounds like the dog should of been culled a LONG time ago.

He's been agressive his whole life-

That line there should say it all. You don't want any more bites being your responsibility as this one is. It sucks man but that is the only really humane option you have. That or keep going and hope the next time the dog doesn't take out someone's eye or worse.

Oh and whoever said they wish there dog was that aggressive....whatever.

opps...just posted this before seeing your answer. Sorry it has to be that way but your making the right but tough choice.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

how is the girl?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I think we're giving Chief Fox too hard a time. If it were your dog and you had it for 13 years what would you want to do?

Anyways, there's these dogs, Blue something ... some kind of terrier or something. A friend of ours had one, and it was usually just a normal nice dog. Never bit anybody. Our friend used to take it bird hunting.

But a neighbors baby somehow got loose from the house and crawled into their yard through the fence. Well the dog wouldn't let anybody near the baby -- it growled and went for anybody who tried to get close. They had to wait until our friend got home. Seems like that would make a good family dog.

wait ... what?? how the **** does a baby "get loose?"

[lunghushan]

wait ... what?? how the **** does a baby "get loose?"

Stupid neighbor lady? I have no idea. Somehow the baby went from the house to the neighbor's yard without anybody noticing.

They were extremely lucky it wound up in the yard with a protective dog rather than the street or some other yard with a not so nice dog.

[unkokusai]

First of all, the "there's no such thing as a bad dog" bit is nonsense. Some individual dogs are just 'off' and some breeds are quantifiably more dangerous and unpredictable. People who go out of their way to own such breeds are just irresponsible and asking for trouble.

The owner is responsible for the actions of his pet, but its more than a little harsh and inappropriately simple to just tell the guy to put down an old friend.

[lunghushan]

First of all, the "there's no such thing as a bad dog" bit is nonsense. Some individual dogs are just 'off' and some breeds are quantifiably more dangerous and unpredictable. People who go out of their way to own such breeds are just irresponsible and asking for trouble.

The owner is responsible for the actions of his pet, but its more than a little harsh and inappropriately simple to just tell the guy to put down an old friend.

I haven't really found this to be true. A lot of people complain about pit bulls or rottweilers or dobermans, but I've run across plenty of these dogs that well trained. I've also run across some pit bulls who were trained to be nasty.

Like a neighbor of my grandmothers had a pit bull and would train it by having it jump at a cloth on a rope, while beating it down and kicking it. They had the rope swinging from the roof and the dog would play for hours, jumping in the air and biting the cloth, and hanging there about 4 feet in the air and not letting go.

I actually played with that poor dog when it got loose on several occasions, and it never bit me. In fact, I experimented on it a bit by seeing how good its grip was, by playing fetch with a chew toy and then trying to pull it away. Pit bulls have incredible jaw strength.

[unkokusai]

I haven't really found this to be true. A lot of people complain about pit bulls or rottweilers .


You don't have to find anything. Its a fact that more people are killed by Pitts and Rotts than any other breeds.

[lunghushan]

You don't have to find anything. Its a fact that more people are killed by Pitts and Rotts than any other breeds.

And it's also true that a lot of people train these dogs to be killers.

Anyways I don't think that unless you've been raised around dogs and people with dogs, that you really know how to deal with dogs. And some breeds of dogs like Rotts and pit bulls need some extra care and attention.

You abuse by locking up, leaving home alone, not paying attention to, playing with, providing compansionship with other dogs for, socializing with other people, providing room to roam, etc., a lot of dogs, they won't do much -- they're too mellow. But you fail to train, or abuse a rott or pit bull you could find you have an ill tempered dog with very good weapons.

Better just get a cat.

Heck -- I've known people who raised 1/2 wolves, and they were great dogs. Sure, they'd get out and kill somebody's rabbit once in a while, but that was just the wolf in them.

[TenTigers]

My dog is a flatcoat retriever, which is bred from retriever and newfie-he's big. He's a total mush, and will lie on his back for a belly rub from Charles Manson.
But..when he was less than a year old, a house guest's demon seed spawn of hell child,who was four reached into Bear's cage and grabbed his face and gouged him in the eyes. To this day, he is afraid of little children and has to be kept away from them or he will nip.
Actually, he has gotten better in his old age, but he is constantly surrounded by people, as he is the school mascot.-but he stays in the office when there are children present.
He's gettin on in years, and a bit fat in the rump. Should fry up nice.

[Black Jack II]

Actually thats not a fact at all. Show me that fact. You just hear about them more because the media gets more miles out of that breed. It's utter bs with no foundation. Bad dogs unless born "off" due to uneducated/unethical breeding are rare. You find more nasty tempered golden's due to the puppy factories than pits. When you see off pits its often because of red neck or inner city ghetto rollers.

As stated I have been around working breeds almost my whole life, including rasing american pit bull terriers. If you know anything about the history of the pit bull you would see why that comment makes no sense from a historical workding perspective but since your uneducated about the whole deal you might as well stay in the dark anyway.

The owner is responsible for the actions of his pet, but its more than a little harsh and inappropriately simple to just tell the guy to put down an old friend.-

Not really. Your saving him from future grief number one. The second aspect, as he already noted in his own post is the welfare of others, it takes a honest pet owner to understand that part.

[lunghushan]

You find more nasty tempered golden's due to the puppy factories than pits.

The dogs that I've run across the most that are nasty tempered are usually that way because they are kept locked up alone all the time, so they bark and do things for attention.

It's pretty sad, really, because doggie years are shorter than human years so all day to a dog alone all locked up is like a week for a person or something.

[TenTigers]

I don't know about you guys, but I have met many a rottie that were mush dogs-playful,lovable pets. Same with dobies and shepards. Don't blame the breed. Dogs are like people (jeez, could I sound any more like a dog lover?) we get bad kids also-but you have to look no further than the parents.
There is a problem with overbreeding, puppymills, etc, just as we have kids born with biochemical imbalances, but for the most part, it is enviornmental.
I have good recipes for 'Long Pig" as well, if anyone's interested.
(face it, you will never get a straight answer out of me!)

[lunghushan]

It is kindof apt to compare dogs to kids because these days a lot of parents seem as clueless as pet owners as to how to raise kids. Then they say the kid is defective and drug them up with a lot of drugs and blame it on ADD or ausbergers or something.

'Common sense' has pretty much flown out the window these days. I blame the hippies. When in doubt, blame the hippies. LOL

[TenTigers]

yep-I was the Ritalin poster child.
Q:How many ADD kids does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Wanna go fishing?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if pits are so vicous why are they not used as guard dogs?

[unkokusai]

Actually thats not a fact at all. Show me that fact.

Attribution: The National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Humane Society of the United States

"The National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Humane Society of the United States recently updated data on fatal dog bites for the period 1989 to 1994.

In the 6-year study published in the medical journal PEDIATRICS (Vol.97 No. 6, 891-5), Jeffrey J. Sacks, M.D. and associates reported the finding of 109 bite-related fatalities. They found that 57% of the deaths were in children under 10 years of age. 22% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog OFF the owner's property. 18% of the deaths involved a restrained dog ON the owner's property, and 59% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog ON the owner's property.

The researchers also found that 10% of the dog bite attacks involved sleeping infants.

The most commonly reported dog breeds involved were pit bulls (24 deaths), followed by rottweilers (16 deaths), and German shepherds (10 deaths). The authors point out that many breeds, however, are involved in the problem.

The death rate from dog bite-related fatalities (18 deaths per year) in the 6-year study period remained relatively constant compared with the prior 10 years."


Sources:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=572


http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/

http://www.cdc.gov/

http://www.hsus.org/

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/misc/about.shtml

[Samurai Jack]

Ah yes. Auatralia did a counter study, however which looked at bite averages instead of just fatalities. The results were surprising. Of the breeds researched (all recognized here in the U.S. by the AKC), the most aggressive according to number of reported bites averaged out to:

1. Maltese
2. Australian Cattle Dog
3. Fox Terrier
4. Alaskan Malamute

According to "Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998", by Jeffrey J. Sacks, MD, the Rottwieler has been involved in less fatal attacks on humans than the Dalmation, which is second only to the German Sheperd in number of fatal attacks per year. Interestingly, the American Pit bull came in tenth for that study.

Is it possible that a breeds likelihood to be aggressive toward humans might be just as, if not more important than it's "bite strength" in determining what breeds are "safe"?

Chief, I'm sorry to hear of your difficult choice. I hope the neighbor girl is okay.

[lunghushan]

Yeah but Unkokusai, please consider this is a 6 year study. Most sites seem to agree there are about 20 dog related fatalities per year out of the entire United States. That isn't very big compared to the bites.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/danger.htm

Although there are a LOT more bites.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/fact_book/14_Dog_Bite_Injuries.htm

At least in the U.S., it doesn't seem like anybody has put together good statistics on the breeds that do bite.

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arus11conninslj1.htm

It is a little shocking though the frequency that dog bites appear to happen. I had no idea that many people were bitten every year.

[TenTigers]

How many fatalities were caused by the maltese?:p

[unkokusai]

How many fatalities were caused by the maltese?:p

Exactly. Its ridiculous to try and compare being nibbled by a lap dog and the loss of human life. By this logic, the common house cat is far more dangerous than any dog.

[unkokusai]

According to "Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998", by Jeffrey J. Sacks, MD, the Rottwieler has been involved in less fatal attacks on humans than the Dalmation, which is second only to the German Sheperd in number of fatal attacks per year. Interestingly, the American Pit bull came in tenth for that study..



That is not correct. Did you even read that study? That is the exact study that determined that Rotts and Pit-Bulls account for about 60% of all fatal dog attacks.

[Black Jack II]

Your actually using that crappy six year old CDC study??

Look, I have been around the molosser breed for a long time. Olde Bulldogge's, Dogo Argentino's, Bullmastiffs, American Bandogs, Presas, and of course the American Pit Bull Terrier.

The difference certain ignorant people are not seeing is it is not the breed. Never is and never will be when you look at dogs. Its the inner city ghetto rollers and/or low life animal abusers who pick up these lines because of a certain machismo they think the dog grants them.

In my view, no dog even comes close to the american pit bull terrier in terms of raw smarts, not even on the same planet in terms of loyality, its a American dog to the core with a serious history in our culture if you look back into the turn of the century.

[The Willow Sword]

Well Being a Pitt Bull Owner myself (American Pitt Terrier) and she is a rescue,BTW, i have to say that in the past i had been very cautious about pitts and had that same ignorant attitude towards dogs that are considered "Aggressive" or "Hostile". When i rescued Maggie(my Pitts name) she was in bad shape. Some low life pieces of sh!t Tried to fight her, i guess, and she wound up getting tore apart, not to mention the abuse that she was most likely put through.The owners left her there at the vet and never came back and never paid her vet bill. she was 4 weeks in a kennel at the vet office in Taos,NM before i knew she existed.
When i saw her she was pretty much healed and was just scared out of her mind. I took one look at her and it was love at first sight and i adopted her right there,paid the fukheads vet bill and took her home. She was skittish at first and i just allowed Maggie her space and let my pure bred Weimaraner(possum) tend to her and take care of her(which he did a fantastic job of accepting her into my household and making her a part of the pack). She eventually came around and became the sweetest dog on the planet. No aggresive tendencies, no barking no growling or charging after anyone. In fact she still is kind of skittish when around people but not aggresive in the slightest.(that is due to the abuse she suffered as a puppy and a young adolesant, i adopted her when she was just a year old).
It opened my eyes to the fact that the pitt breed isnt necessarily going to be naturally aggressive(with exception to the pack mentality that ALL dogs have).
I feel that as long as you are not some low life gangster wanting to turn your pitt into a fighting dog, or some trailer trash that wants some killer to protect your precious junk and crap in your front yard, then i think you can raise a pitt,or any breed in a good way, and they be a loving and decent breed. Boxers are like that, not too smart a breed but great family dogs. ANY Breed can be a great family dog and be good around kids and other animals(cats etc.)

IN the case of Cheif Fox's dog. I would have to say that the responsability goes in part to the girl who just walked over and tried to scootch Rado off his resting spot. That to me is bad manners on the girl's part and is a no no, no matter how old the dog is or how loving the dog may be. Obviously she did not deserve to get bit, and i attribute that to the dog being old(13 yrs old is pretty old for a dog these days, which means cheif fox takes good care of him, kudos to you bro). But still i wouldnt take the attitude of putting the dog down. Not necessary AT ALL.
Just pay the girl's dr bill because you ARE responsable for your dogs actions. and next time someone comes over and wants to sit on the couch, then i think it should be CHEIF FOX, and not the guest that makes the dog move out of his comfort spot.

Peace, TWS
PS. Here are the two greatest dogs on the planet,in my eyes. Possum is a pure bred silver streak Weimaraner and Maggie is a Pure bred American Pitt bull terrier(the red kind with the white blaze) Possum is a senior dog now(9yrs) and Maggie is 5 yrs old.

[Judge Pen]

IN the case of Cheif Fox's dog. I would have to say that the responsability goes in part to the girl who just walked over and tried to scootch Rado off his resting spot. That to me is bad manners on the girl's part and is a no no, no matter how old the dog is or how loving the dog may be. Obviously she did not deserve to get bit, and i attribute that to the dog being old(13 yrs old is pretty old for a dog these days, which means cheif fox takes good care of him, kudos to you bro). But still i wouldnt take the attitude of putting the dog down. Not necessary AT ALL.
Just pay the girl's dr bill because you ARE responsable for your dogs actions. and next time someone comes over and wants to sit on the couch, then i think it should be CHEIF FOX, and not the guest that makes the dog move out of his comfort spot.

From someone who has defended dog-bite cases, prosecuted dog-bite cases and been afraid that they would be sued when their dog bit a kid, I know a bit about this topic. While I agree with TWS, most states have laws making the owner's strictly liable for their dogs when they bite someone if the owner knew or should have known of the dog's aggressive tendencies toward humans (actual aggressiveness--not this "bred aggressiveness" that was discussed) Hence the old saying "Every dog gets one free bite". Some states have excluded the "one bite" rule for certain breeds based upon reputation and these studies that have floated around. Unfortunately, it sounds as if Chief Fox knew the dog had a propensity to be aggressive toward people which could subject him to liability if they sue. There's also a question as to whether a child's actions can legally be compared to the actions of the owner of a dog with aggressive propensities. It doesn't sound bad as the bite wasn't very serious, but the real risk is that some states and/or local governments can put a dog down for any kind of bite, so you'll want to look into what the local laws say about dog bites. There are plenty of websites that do a good job summarizing the different dog-bite laws of different states. I've found that www.dogbitelaw.com was fairly accurate in its summary of my state's law, although its analysis was a bit simplistic on some of the finer points.

[TenTigers]

TWS-who you kiddin? That dog is a KILLER-out an out! Look at those eyes, staring down at you, sensing, no-smelling the fear that wells up inside. A predatory gaze that sends chills down my spine every time I even look at that bundle of fluff, um, I mean demonic beast!
great pic

[unkokusai]

Your actually using that crappy six year old CDC study??



Oh, how silly of me to refer to actual studies and real data instead of relying on baseless anecdotes about you and your Uncle Earl...:rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

TWS-who you kiddin? That dog is a KILLER-out an out! Look at those eyes, staring down at you, sensing, no-smelling the fear that wells up inside. A predatory gaze that sends chills down my spine every time I even look at that bundle of fluff, um, I mean demonic beast!
great pic

LOL!! Yeah she is pretty vicious lookin aint she?


Peace,TWS

[Oso]

geez...


i think it boils down to what I said in the beginning. It's CF's responsibility. He made an error in judgement and luckily no one was seriously injured or died. He needs to totally be aware and think of the worst case scenario and not take any chances in the future.


CF, I sincerely hope you don't put the dog down. You just have to assume full responsibility for all care of it.

[Samurai Jack]

How many fatalities were caused by the maltese?:p


All of this is moot anyway. The Maltese (http://www.degreeminiatures.com/british/mli.html) was a breed of known bada$$edness back in the day. It is well documented, if not well known. Certainly during the 1700s they were responsible for more human fatalities than any dog breed.

[Samurai Jack]

That is not correct. Did you even read that study? That is the exact study that determined that Rotts and Pit-Bulls account for about 60% of all fatal dog attacks.

Yes. I did read the study. It's crystal clear. Perhaps you should review it?


Exactly. Its ridiculous to try and compare being nibbled by a lap dog and the loss of human life. By this logic, the common house cat is far more dangerous than any dog.

Agreed. However, the other three breeds mentioned are certainly capable of taking human lives, wouldn't you agree? Furthermore, as the dalmation caused more fatalities than the rottwieler or pitbull, dosen't it stand to reason that it's a more dangerous dog? Assuming, of course, that we buy the "dangerous breed" line of reasoning in the first place.

[unkokusai]

Yes. I did read the study. It's crystal clear. Perhaps you should review it?




Well here it is. There are charts and everything.....:confused:


http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

[Oso]

Guess what? I got bit by a dog today. A big assed Newfie. His owner, a woman, was standing right there and I was attempting to make friends with him before I had to go on his property. I brought the back of my hand up under his muzzle so he could sniff me and he snapped down on my hand. Didn't break the skin and he immediately let go. He never did warm up to me and did NOT like me being on his property as I fixed his owner's hot tub. Turns out his owner's husband died just a month ago so he's definitely the alpha male on the property.

guess he should be put down, huh?

[Water Dragon]

Guess what? I got bit by a dog today. A big assed Newfie. His owner, a woman, was standing right there and I was attempting to make friends with him before I had to go on his property. I brought the back of my hand up under his muzzle so he could sniff me and he snapped down on my hand. Didn't break the skin and he immediately let go. He never did warm up to me and did NOT like me being on his property as I fixed his owner's hot tub. Turns out his owner's husband died just a month ago so he's definitely the alpha male on the property.

guess he should be put down, huh?

No, but the owner has a responsibility to keep the animal leashed or crated when strange people are on the property. What if that dog saw you as a real threat? Newfoundlands can do damage, Bro. Betcha dollars to donuts that if he ever bites, he will magically turn into a pit bull.

[lunghushan]

No, but the owner has a responsibility to keep the animal leashed or crated when strange people are on the property. What if that dog saw you as a real threat? Newfoundlands can do damage, Bro. Betcha dollars to donuts that if he ever bites, he will magically turn into a pit bull.

I got bit by a chihuaha once. I think he thought my finger was a chew toy. I was so mad. I should have sued the owner except that it was my uncle. ;)

[Samurai Jack]

Obviously you are simply not reading the statistics. There is an enourmous amount of historical evidence that proves beyond any doubt the leathality of the Maltese. There's really no point in arguing it further, since the facts speak for themselves.

http://www.afm.gov.mt/pgmal_light_inf.htm

http://www.wirtartna.org/HIG/RMRM.htm

[Oso]

No, but the owner has a responsibility to keep the animal leashed or crated when strange people are on the property. What if that dog saw you as a real threat? Newfoundlands can do damage, Bro. Betcha dollars to donuts that if he ever bites, he will magically turn into a pit bull.


I agree. She said she'd never seen him do that but I later gathered that I was the first strange person on the property since her husband died. My point is that it was an understandable thing given the background. He did it to establish dominance and immediately let go. He surely could have broken my hand in that one moment if that had been his intent.

[Judge Pen]

Obviously you are simply not reading the statistics. There is an enourmous amount of historical evidence that proves beyond any doubt the leathality of the Maltese. There's really no point in arguing it further, since the facts speak for themselves.

http://www.afm.gov.mt/pgmal_light_inf.htm

http://www.wirtartna.org/HIG/RMRM.htm


Facts speak for themselves? I always thought you needed a spin-doctor to get the facts to speak the truth.

[Mr Punch]

Your actually using that crappy six year old CDC study??

Look, I have been around the molosser breed for a long time. Olde Bulldogge's, Dogo Argentino's, Bullmastiffs, American Bandogs, Presas, and of course the American Pit Bull Terrier.

The difference certain ignorant people are not seeing is it is not the breed. Never is and never will be when you look at dogs. Its the inner city ghetto rollers and/or low life animal abusers who pick up these lines because of a certain machismo they think the dog grants them.

In my view, no dog even comes close to the american pit bull terrier in terms of raw smarts, not even on the same planet in terms of loyality, its a American dog to the core with a serious history in our culture if you look back into the turn of the century.He's using a crappy six year old study, and you're using the very definition of anecdotal evidence: saying you've got all this experience that flies in the face of scientific study. :rolleyes:

OK, not being funny, here's a quick question (which you've already part answered): Why do you choose American Pit Bulls? Why not a Labrador? Why not a Wolfhound, or a Pekinese, or a Miniature Dachshund?

Because, there are certain characteristics that you think are cool in an APB, right? So why, as at least an anecdotal expert, don't you see that there may be negative characteristics too? As you said, you are dealing with dealers, breeders and enthusiasts, not the ghetto d!ckheads and rollers, so your 'evidence' is gonna be way skewed anyway. The answer is part nature and part nurture, as always.

Plus, there are such things as bad people, so why don't you accept that there are such things as bad dogs, and by your own admission, since dogs have different characteristics, why can't some these be bad for your favoured breed?

Blinkers?

[Samurai Jack]

Facts speak for themselves? I always thought you needed a spin-doctor to get the facts to speak the truth.

I'm working on it, but the polls say I'm not doing so well.

I mean, the State of my Union is strong.

Our Union.

You know what I'm trying to say.

[Black Jack II]

Mr. Punch,

Dude that post of yours was way skewed. Read what I write.

First off, I have real world working and living experiance with these dog, not a one time cdc study from six years ago and as we ALL should know by now studies can be changed to fit almost ANY situation based on who took the study.


Why do you choose American Pit Bulls? Why not a Labrador? Why not a Wolfhound, or a Pekinese, or a Miniature Dachshund?-

Already answered it.


Because, there are certain characteristics that you think are cool in an APB, right-

Cool? I don't like how you are tyring to use that term. I choose a certain breed of dog based on how best they fit with me and my familys personality and if the enviroment fits the ability to raise them in a proper fashion.

So why, as at least an anecdotal expert, don't you see that there may be negative characteristics too?-

Talk about blinders man. I never said in any of these posts that this breed of dog can not have a negative characteristic.:rolleyes: It takes a specific kind of responsible ower to have this breed as a pet due to certain aspects of its nature.

I could go into detailed specifics on what and why but really there is no point on this forum. Retards will be retards and those that get it will get it.


Plus, there are such things as bad people, so why don't you accept that there are such things as bad dogs, and by your own admission, since dogs have different characteristics, why can't some these be bad for your favoured breed?-

Never said there were not bad dogs in every bunch. If you look I write that some dogs can be born off and should be culled. For the love of money learn to read man.

[unkokusai]

Mr. Punch,

Dude that post of yours was way skewed. Read what I write.

First off, I have real world working and living experiance with these dog, not a one time cdc study from six years ago and as we ALL should know by now studies can be changed to fit almost ANY situation based on who took the study.




He read exactly what you wrote, and here you just made the same error of dismissing hard data in favor of your own personal anecdotes. Studies can be changed to fit any situation, eh? Its even easier to make "no, no, take my word for it!" to fit any situation.

Give logic a chance, son.

[Black Jack II]

Hard data?

It's called a skewed 6 year old study. By the way, talking about the concept of logic on KFO is like saying ABBA is going to make a world come back tour.


www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/pitbullsdataskewed.pdf

[unkokusai]

Hard data?

It's called a skewed 6 year old study.



Oh I see, its "skewed" because you would prefer we simply take your personal stories as a more reliable source.


Makes lots of sense, champ................:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

Kee-rist the level of dil-doeism on here is certainly not bush-league.

Oh I see, its "skewed" because you would prefer we simply take your personal stories as a more reliable source.-

Thats your problem unko. I don't care if anyone takes my personal experiances as a reliable source and I never stated for anyone to take them as a more reliable source.

I think the pdf speaks pretty clear on the subject.

[unkokusai]

Thats your problem unko. I don't care if anyone takes my personal experiances as a reliable source .



That works out well, because they are not. And the article you linked to doesn't dispute the findings of the report but merely questions the causes of the facts reported in said report.

The fact is that certain breeds are more likely to be involved in fatal attacks on humans. Going out of your way to own such breeds is irresponsible and contributes to the problem.

[Black Jack II]

The fact is that certain breeds are more likely to be involved in fatal attacks on humans. Going out of your way to own such breeds is irresponsible and contributes to the problem.-

That is a pile of crap if I ever heard one. You remind me of the type of person who blames guns on gun violence and not the actual shooter with that kind of stupid statement. Owning a certain breed is not irresponsible at all. But being a bad pet owner is.

Your uneducated in the first person. Get out of your apartment and go get involved with these animals, so you can be informed in what you are actually cackling about, as its obvious you are not.

If you read the old study it shows pit-bull type dogs. What does that mean? What contributes to a pit bull type dog and who makes that decision.

I will tell you who does. Basically the media outlet that reports it.

Newfoundlands can do damage, Bro. Betcha dollars to donuts that if he ever bites, he will magically turn into a pit bull.-

That above line states what I mean in perfect terms.

[lunghushan]

Somehow I can't believe you're all arguing this. There's what, 20 people killed a year from dog attacks in the U.S. while almost 50,000 die from car accidents.

You'd be better arguing what type of car causes the most fatal accidents than what kind of dog.

[Water Dragon]

The fact is that certain breeds are more likely to be involved in fatal attacks on humans. Going out of your way to own such breeds is irresponsible and contributes to the problem.

I disagree. I will never own another breed except an American Bulldog. AB's are basically 100 pound pits that are more man aggresive. Does that make me irresponsible even though I have been consistently complimented on how well behaved my dog was and how good it was with kids? Or was I being RESPONSIBLE by making sure I understood what kind of dog I had, how it thought, and how it needed to be trained?

You can't drive a car without a license, but you can get a dog with no idea on how to raise/train/keep the thing.

[SevenStar]

AB's are awesome. My neighbor has one, and that will likely be my next dog.

[Water Dragon]

AB's are awesome. My neighbor has one, and that will likely be my next dog.

Is it a totally different dog around kids than around adults? That's how my Rosie was. Strange kids could walk right up to her and basically abuse her and she loved it. She was very guarded around adults even if she knew them for a while.

[unkokusai]

The fact is that certain breeds are more likely to be involved in fatal attacks on humans. Going out of your way to own such breeds is irresponsible and contributes to the problem.-

That is a pile of crap if I ever heard one. .



No, that's a pile of 'fact,' and I wouldn't be surprised if you never heard one because you seem so unfamiliar with them.

[unkokusai]

Owning a certain breed is not irresponsible at all. .



Owning a breed proven to be more likely to kill is irresponsible. Your willful denial of that fact is also irresponsible.

[unkokusai]

Your uneducated in the first person. Get out of your apartment and go get involved with these animals, so you can be informed in what you are actually cackling about, as its obvious you are not. .



And now you are left with nothing but empty assumptions.

[unkokusai]

Newfoundlands can do damage, Bro. Betcha dollars to donuts that if he ever bites, he will magically turn into a pit bull.-



And now you are reduced to magical little guessing games about Pit-bulls being mistaken for Newfies.


:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I will never own another breed except an American Bulldog. AB's are basically 100 pound pits that are more man aggresive. Does that make me irresponsible?

....................................

YES

[Water Dragon]

And now you are reduced to magical little guessing games about Pit-bulls being mistaken for Newfies.


:rolleyes:


That was I who stated that. I've seen it happen personally with a Boxer. Boxer bit a kid, and it was reported as a "Pitbull Attack" in the paper. A couple years back, there were "two vicious Pit bulls" running around wild on a game preserve in Chicago. The two Pits ended up being a Black Lab and a Shephard mix. I've heard of it happening a lot. Face it, "Pit Bull attacks child" sells a lot more papers than "Mutt bites Kid". I'm not saying your stats are wrong, but I am saying they may be suspect due to the above reasoning.

Also, how am I irresponsible by owning an AB? The dog obeyed everyone in my house, including my kids. She never failed to obey a command, was always leashed in public without exception, and even though we had a fenced yard, I would chain her anyway if I wasn't with her.

Do you even know what makes a Bull Breed bite and why a Pit or AB bites for totally different reasons than a German Shepherd, Rottie, or small breed? If you understand why Bulldogs bite, you'll understand why it's the owner that's generally at fault.

[lunghushan]

Do you even know what makes a Bull Breed bite and why a Pit or AB bites for totally different reasons than a German Shepherd, Rottie, or small breed? If you understand why Bulldogs bite, you'll understand why it's the owner that's generally at fault.

Actually I have no idea why bull dog breeds bite. They only seem to bite when they've been trained to play that way. Rotties seem to be more interested in the tactile sensation of whatever it is they're playing with, like a chew toy.

[Water Dragon]

Rotties bite because they were bred to protect things. They're extremely territorial, and usually bite when whatever they are guarding is threatened. That's why, a Rott will tend to corner you and just guard you if you don't move.

German Shephards were bred as sheep dogs, their instinct is to protect the flock. That's why you hear a lot of stories of GSD's biting the neighbor kids, but not many where they bite their own kid. Usually, the two kids are playing, somewhat roughly, the dog thinks the neighbor is hurting 'their kid' and they bite to protect the flock.

Bull breeds were breed to fight and kill other animales, so they are extremely dominant. That's why they're usually not so good with other dogs. Their instinct is to fight to be the Alpha. Bull's generally bite because they think they have more status than the person they bite, kinda like wimmins. Usually this is because the owner has no idea how to handle the dog, and lets it do whatever it wants to. A lot of times with smaller kids, prey drive kicks in and the dog sees the kid as prey. Thing is, it's easy to spot high prey drive, and you handle the dog accordingly. High prey dogs should be workers, and never family pets. That's common sense to anyone who knows the breed, but not to Joe Public.

Yeah, I like dogs. :D

[lunghushan]

Rotties bite because they were bred to protect things. They're extremely territorial, and usually bite when whatever they are guarding is threatened. That's why, a Rott will tend to corner you and just guard you if you don't move.


Yeah, I like dogs. :D

Last few Rotties I was around ... let's see ... you walk up to the group, the Rottie trots out ... let him chew on your hand a little, group doesn't freak out, they go back to whatever it is they're doing.

I guess most bull breeds I've been around, they don't usually do that. They tend to just do their own thing until you somehow initiate contact. But mostly I think I've mostly been around boxers, and I usually instigate contact anyway, so I don't know for sure.

GSDs ... you know, I really haven't been around that many GSDs, but I think they're kindof yappers. You know, approach the group or fence and they start barking. Actually, I should edit this, because you know I haven't been around that many german shepards at all.

Most everybody I know goes for boxers for some reason. I have no idea why.

[Water Dragon]

Boxers are big goofballs. Also, they're not considered a 'dominant' breed.

[lunghushan]

Boxers are big goofballs. Also, they're not considered a 'dominant' breed.

They don't seem to do so well in the long life department, though. I can't think of one that's lived to be more than 11.

[Shaolinlueb]

newfies are awesome. love emn. i had one, such a good dog. just didnt like baby's crying.