how two men defied the entire prison system

[JetLi'sFearless]

http://www.projectposner.org/case/1988/854F2d162/

"The United States Penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, is the successor to Alcatraz as the prison designed to hold the most violent and dangerous prisoners in the federal system. The only "Level 6" prison in that system (federal prisons carry a security rating ranging from 1 to 6), it may be the most severe prison in the country, and it houses not only the worst federal prisoners but, on a contract basis, state prisoners too violent for state prisons to handle. Its 300-odd inmates are among the most dangerous people in this nation of 240 million.

To live under such conditions is sordid and horrible, and though they would have raised few eyebrows a hundred years ago, the concept of cruel and unusual punishments is an evolving one; the minimum standard of decency in prisons is a function of the conditions of life on the outside, and therefore as society becomes wealthier, more comfortable, more sensitive, more civilized, the constitutional minimum of decency in incarceration rises. There is no question that conditions in Marion deserve careful scrutiny, but they must be evaluated against the background of an extraordinary history of inmate violence and with proper regard for the limited competence of federal judges to micromanage prisons.

The defendants placed in the record a remarkable narrative of the violence that led up to the lockdown. We note a few highlights (some corroborated by decisions of this court). Two inmates, while exercising in the corridor outside their cells, garrotted a third inmate, who was asleep in his cell with his head against the bars. See United States v. Silverstein, 732 F.2d 1338 (7th Cir. 1984). An inmate stabbed another inmate with a knife while they were exercising and was in turn stabbed by two inmates with knives on his way back to his cell. An inmate fired a zip gun (a homemade pistol) at another inmate and at a guard, wounding both. Inmates have attacked other inmates and guards with a homemade bomb, with a light bulb, with a padlock, with a sharpened pencil wielded as a knife, with a sharpened toothbrush, with feces, with a chair, with a mop wringer, with a home-made mallet, and with a bucket of boiling water, as well as with the usual zip guns and shanks. (Shanks are homemade knives, often carved out of the legs of the steel beds in the cells. The steel beds have now been replaced by concrete blocks in an effort to prevent the manufacture of shanks.) A number of inmates were killed in these assaults, and in addition there were frequent riots and strikes by inmates, takings of guards as hostages, takeovers of cell blocks, and ingenious attempts to escape—once to the accompaniment of rifle fire directed at the prison from the outside. One inmate managed to detonate a bomb in his cell.

In the climactic week that preceded the lockdown, two guards were murdered in similar incidents. In each a prisoner being escorted from his cell broke away from the three guards escorting him, thrust his handcuffed wrists (this was before the innovation of placing a box over the handcuffs) into an accomplice's cell, emerged sans handcuffs but holding a shank in his hand, and proceeded to attack the guards. In one of the incidents, another guard was crippled and the third seriously injured. See United States v. Fountain, 768 F.2d 790, modified on other grounds. Throughout this period, searches uncovered an astonishing quantity of knives, zip guns, and other contraband, including many homemade keys that fit handcuffs and others that fit doors in the prison. Searches of body cavities, including the nose, the mouth, and the rectum, continue to turn up an impressive quantity and variety of contraband, including knives and hacksaw blades."

http://www.projectposner.org/case/1985/768F2d790/

We have consolidated the appeals in two closely related cases of murder of prison guards in the Control Unit of the federal penitentiary at Marion, Illinois — the maximum-security cell block in the nation's maximum-security federal prison — by past masters of prison murder, Clayton Fountain and Thomas Silverstein.

Shortly before these crimes, Fountain and Silverstein, both of whom were already serving life sentences for murder, had together murdered an inmate in the Control Unit of Marion, and had again been sentenced to life imprisonment. See United States v. Silverstein, 732 F.2d 1338. After that, Silverstein killed another inmate, pleaded guilty to that murder, and received his third life sentence. At this point Fountain and Silverstein had each killed three people. (For one of these killings, however, Fountain had been convicted only of voluntary manslaughter. And Silverstein's first murder conviction was reversed for trial error, and a new trial ordered, after the trial in this case.) The prison authorities — belatedly, and as it turned out ineffectually — decided to take additional security measures. Three guards would escort Fountain and Silverstein (separately), handcuffed, every time they left their cells to go to or from the recreation room, the law library, or the shower. (Prisoners in Marion's Control Unit are confined, one to a cell, for all but an hour or an hour and a half a day, and are fed in their cells.) But the guards would not be armed; nowadays guards do not carry weapons in the presence of prisoners, who might seize the weapons.

The two murders involved in these appeals took place on the same October day in 1983. In the morning, Silverstein, while being escorted from the shower to his cell, stopped next to Randy Gometz's cell; and while two of the escorting officers were for some reason at a distance from him, reached his handcuffed hands into the cell. The third officer, who was closer to him, heard the click of the handcuffs being released and saw Gometz raise his shirt to reveal a home-made knife ("shank") — which had been fashioned from the iron leg of a bed — protruding from his waistband. Silverstein drew the knife and attacked one of the guards, Clutts, stabbing him 29 times and killing him. While pacing the corridor after the killing, Silverstein explained that "this is no cop thing. This is a personal thing between me and Clutts. The man disrespected me and I had to get him for it." Having gotten this off his chest he returned to his cell.

Fountain was less discriminating. While being escorted that evening back to his cell from the recreation room, he stopped alongside the cell of another inmate (who, however, apparently was not prosecuted for his part in the events that followed) and reached his handcuffed hands into the cell, and when he brought them out he was out of the handcuffs and holding a shank. He attacked all three guards, killing one (Hoffman) with multiple stab wounds (some inflicted after the guard had already fallen), injuring another gravely (Ditterline, who survived but is permanently disabled), and inflicting lesser though still serious injuries on the third (Powles). After the wounded guards had been dragged to safety by other guards, Fountain threw up his arms in the boxer's gesture of victory, and laughing walked back to his cell.

The prudence of requiring shackles in this case was shown by Fountain's and Silverstein's extraordinary history of violence in the face of maximum security precautions, the fact that most of the witnesses were murderers, and above all the fact that, as we shall explain when we discuss the sentencing issues, the defendants are wholly beyond the deterrent reach of the law. If they were not shackled, there would be a grave danger of their attacking people in the courtroom or trying to escape. Silverstein's long disciplinary record includes one escape, while Gometz 's includes three episodes of planning and attempting escape.

Violent men are not necessarily liars, and indeed one class of violent men consists of those with an exaggerated sense of honor. Now Silverstein had testified on direct examination that he had killed Clutts because Clutts was planning to let Cubans out of their cells to kill him, and on cross-examination had added that he hadn't been "out to hurt anybody or anything." If this statement could be construed as putting the peaceableness of his character in issue, then he laid himself open to cross-examination designed to show the violence of his character.

Fountain at his trial testified that he too had been acting in self-defense when he attacked his guards; and while he admitted that he had had a knife, he testified that it was for self-defense. This testimony laid him open to the cross-examination of which he complains: an inquiry about his prior activities with a knife, which included killing an inmate whom he stabbed 57 times, crying "die, bi-ch, die."

Fountain complains about the court's refusal to subpoena as witnesses inmates Bruscino and Gometz. He says they would have contradicted a guard who testified that Fountain, shortly after the murder, had told Bruscino, who was in the second cell down the corridor from Fountain (Gometz was in the cell between them), that "it would have been fun if he [Fountain] could have killed Hoffman, Jr." — the son of the guard Fountain had killed, and also a guard at Marion.

Fountain also objects to testimony by a guard that two months after the murder Fountain had said to him, "what are you looking at, b-tch?," and then asked him whether, when it was his turn to die, he "would scream like the other two b-tches screamed." Fountain argues that the alleged conversation was irrelevant and that it wasn't even shown that he knew that another guard had been killed the day he murdered Hoffman. At all events, any error was a harmless one; the circumstances of Fountain 's mad dog attack on three guards negated any inference of self-defense."

[JetLi'sFearless]

https://www.fastcase.com/Yahoo/Start.aspx?C=8f1e0152aa0a8c3d7353ab4864465c3755621 2e5078851b7&D=7f3ec52c39ba6f06e2a71ebfbeff9d334e7d131ed1723759&AffiliateConst=Yahoo

"Thomas Silverstein, one of the leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood, a violent prison gang, is confined in a specially designed cell at the United States Penitentiary in Atlanta. Silverstein has been convicted of at least four murders and is serving multiple consecutive life sentences. Most of the victims have been other prisoners or guards who crossed or "disrespected" Silverstein or fellow members of the Aryan Brotherhood. See United States v. Fountain

Silverstein landed in a custom cell because the Control Unit at Marion, the most secure part of the most secure prison in the country, was not secure enough to restrain him."


here is his home page:
http://www.tommysilverstein.com/index.html

"I’ve been incarcerated since
1975 and am currently the longest held
prisoner in total solitary confinement
within the BOP (Bureau of Prisons) and
perhaps in America and the world.

Not even the notorious “Birdman of
Alcatraz” was held in (total solitary
confinement) absolute insolation, as I
have been subjected to the past 23
years! He was able to see and speak
with his neighbors in adjacent cells"

and here is an article on how they killed a member of the dc blacks:
http://www.projectposner.org/case/1984/732F2d1338/

"He was, indeed, a member of the three-man "commission" that governs the Aryan Brotherhood. To qualify for membership in the Aryan Brotherhood you must "make bones." As one prisoner explained, "In effect what it means is you will kill somebody. They distinguish the weed from the shaft. You must have a killer instinct.

Nine days later, after their evening meal, Silverstein and another inmate of C range, defendant Fountain, an "associate" of the Aryan Brotherhood, were let out of their cells to recreate. They were not kept under continuous observation by guards during the hour in which they were roaming the corridor of C range. An hour and a quarter after Silverstein and Fountain were returned to their cells Chappelle was found dead on the floor of his cell. Medical evidence showed that he had been strangled about an hour after eating, by a cord held by two people as he lay on his bed with his head leaning against the bars of the cell. The next day Reynosa told Perumean, "we finally got the son of a *****," and later Silverstein told Perumean that he and Fountain had "yoked the *nigga* Fountain told another inmate, "I am glad we killed him," and Silverstein told another, "I am just sorry I had to kill him through the bars and couldn't get next to him."

oh and that one day led to the lockdown of the prison (like the first quote mentions) and formations of the supermax adx:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

[lunghushan]

There's one simple solution to this problem. Violent prisoners who hurt and kill people should get hung, not incarcerated.

[JetLi'sFearless]

how come some hardened criminals and gang members are able to kill with such easy and little hesitation while everyone else has so much fear, adrenaline, regret, inhibitions, etc. before even confronting the target? Like in this aryan brotherhood case:
http://online.ceb.com/calcases/C4/1C4t324.htm

one guy was able to track down multiple family members of a man who defected form the gang and kill his dad with a sledge hammer just like that. Even when compared street fights to sport fights, there is so much more hesitation and its so much different casue the enemy usually fights with sueprhuman strengh to preserve themselves while your all nervous and forget any technique thats not a simple punch and might even turn into a haymaker machine from all your boxing training as a result of this anxiety and adrenaline and to want to end it as soon as possibel to "preserve your self". so how do those guys do it so easily and like its just business?

Do you think you'd have the necessary killer instinct to survive in that world? Do you think youd have what it takes to do someone in to preserve yourself or your fmaily?

[cjurakpt]

welcome back, Happeh...

may the banning this time be swift and merciful

[Mr Punch]

This is that retard kid with the prison rape fixation and the skinny but supposedly hard looking friend from Kazakhistan whose sister is a prostitute and who goes and criminally assaults supposed offenders on their doorsteps and then brags about it on web forums right?!:rolleyes:

Bye-bye!

[MasterKiller]

Hi Strangler!

[David Jamieson]

It's backbreaker and his gay fixation with prison rape! yayyy!

such a tiny little brain on him. still doesn't understand his own fetish and can't wrap that little tiny jellybean size brain around the dictionary definition of psychopaths and sociopaths.


let the banning hammer fall on this one before i shat my breakfast. :p

lunghushan- Horses are "hung", as am I, but convicts are "hanged".

ever since the saddam thing, I've found myself having to redefine this word over and over again after listen to people go on and on about the size of saddam package. :p

[Royal Dragon]

Do you think you'd have the necessary killer instinct to survive in that world? Do you think youd have what it takes to do someone in to preserve yourself or your fmaily?

Reply]
To survive an incounter, yes, but to survive in that world long term, no. I would take my family and move to the peaceful suburbs and enjoy suburbia.

[lunghushan]

how come some hardened criminals and gang members are able to kill with such easy and little hesitation while everyone else has so much fear, adrenaline, regret, inhibitions, etc. before even confronting the target?

It's very simple. It's called BRAIN DAMAGE. They've done studies and these people don't have any function in the part of the brain where conscience and compassion reside. That's why they call them PSYCHOPATHS. Some of them are also XYY.

[Royal Dragon]

casue the enemy usually fights with sueprhuman strengh to preserve themselves

Reply]
Not so, they just have elevated levels of preditory agression...and are insane to the point of not having fear. They have no superior strength, or technique. they are still just men.

>>while your all nervous and forget any technique thats not a simple punch and might even turn into a haymaker machine from all your boxing training as a result of this anxiety and adrenaline and to want to end it as soon as possibel to "preserve your self".

Reply]
I have been in situations where it become life or death (Lost controll of a car doing 100+ a few times). I remaned very calm, and reacted as needed to keep the car from hitting the wall. No panic fear, or forgetting my skills. That all happened to me after the fact, when it had become safe.

>>so how do those guys do it so easily and like its just business?

Reply]
They are criminally insane. They have defective brains, and really donot see the difference between killing people, and hunting for dinner.

In a more primative world, they would have been executed the first time they savagely murdered a tribsman. The traits they exibit are flaws, not strengths. Only in recent times have monsters like this been allowed to continue living. Thier behavior and savagery resulted in them haveing very short lives prior to our modern world. They are not examples of evolutionary sucsess stories.

[lunghushan]

It's the nice liberal (for lack of a better term) people who think that these people should be locked up instead of executed. But does it really help things?

Well yes, it removes them from the general population, but then there are a lot of problems within the prison system. (Which is to be expected with so many violent people with so much time on their hands).

So either execute them or stop complaining about 'problems' (problems which were created) in the system. Anyways, as for the 'could you protect' your family, as shown in wars over and over again, regular men are more than capable of fighting to protect their country and family.

In a lot of ways, the system protects these criminals. If there weren't cops protecting them, a lot of people would already have been killed by the relatives of the people they hurt.

[JetLi'sFearless]

It's very simple. It's called BRAIN DAMAGE. They've done studies and these people don't have any function in the part of the brain where conscience and compassion reside. That's why they call them PSYCHOPATHS. Some of them are also XYY.


but thats what makes them sof earless and ruthless, and be able to do basically anything without holding back. They [probably make the best soldiers, and assasins. And also alot of us would have or do ahve inhibitions in confronting someone and just thinking say of a fight but not actually killing them, cause of fear not cause of compassion cause the other guy might reall deserve it. These guys have no fear. For instance not long ago I punched a guy straight in the face after he started grabbing something out of my hand and disrespecting me with his friends and trying to start a fight, right after though I didnt capitalize on it and pulled a knife cause he pulled out some osrt of an air pistol or something and I was outnumbered so I did it to egt away and threatened him a bit, anyway than he challenged me and I turned aorund put the knife in my bag and waited for him to bring it on. At that time I had the "It"/ But another time after that I was riving form a grocery store and I stopped in the middle of the road just before tunring cause some guy with a baby and a gf all of a sudden staretd walking, anyway they were walking hell of slow and on top of it the guy started claling me a b-tch and stuff. Anyway I kinda stopped in the middle of the road and flipped him off and started tlaking back but I had an inhibition from stopping him to confront him. Later I decided to anyway so i went back and parked in the parking lot and went to the supermarket to confront him. When i went I didnt expect to see him but when I did I had this huge inhibition to turn back and just leave. I dont know if it was the fact he had a wife and a baby and I think some other people were int he area, or casue it was just fear and on that day I was a punk bytch or not.

[lunghushan]

but thats what makes them sof earless adn ruthless, and be able to do basically anything without holding back. They [probably make the best soldiers, and assasins.

Yeah, and I guess that's something you should look up to if you are a deluded teenager like the Columbine killers.

SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP.

[JetLi'sFearless]

Not so, they just have elevated levels of preditory agression...and are insane to the point of not having fear. They have no superior strength, or technique. they are still just men.

ok let me demonstrate a point. I put a guy not long ago in a choke hold where I grabbed one of my arms under his armpit and linked it to the other arm which was around his throat and he freaking broke it by moving his head and bdoy forward, in a feat Ive never seen. And I never experienced having to use so much strengh just to keep close to him and the guy never trained and even worked out much to my knowledge. How does he do something you dont see guys in the ufc even do?

[Shaolinlueb]

It's the nice liberal (for lack of a better term) people who think that these people should be locked up instead of executed. But does it really help things?

no it doesnt help us keeping them alive. it costs us money. it would save the tax payers dollars. i think we should bring all people that are in for murder and staying there for life, out back, put a bullet in the base of their skull (cause its instant death they say.). throw them in a pit, pour some lime over them, throw dirt over it. call it a day.

yeah its not humane, but you think those people were thinking that when they killed those people? they dont give a sh#t so why should we? because they are born again? so, let god sort them out. god will save the "born agains". :D

[JetLi'sFearless]

Anyways, as for the 'could you protect' your family, as shown in wars over and over again, regular men are more than capable of fighting to protect their country and family.

In a lot of ways, the system protects these criminals. If there weren't cops protecting them, a lot of people would already have been killed by the relatives of the people they hurt.

actually its alot harder to hunt someone down and do them in s etting not socially acceptable, or be able to get to them than it is in a war where everyone is shooting at each other. Also, why are there so many sex offenders with horrible crimes around if people have the balls to take the law into their own hands and deal with them after they get out of their little sentence? Even i backe dout after attacking them without of doing much damage to them, I would just hit them ocne and kinda wait for a reaction too for some reason, or theye scaped after a few hits and locked the door. WHile the guy in the article has the balls to go against 3 men single handely with a shank, while I cant think of a person who would just go with a knife ionto a house outnumbered 3 to one and attack even one person without thinking theyd get into a stalemate fight where the cops will come or will lose to 3 men with weapons.

[JetLi'sFearless]

no it doesnt help us keeping them alive. it costs us money. it would save the tax payers dollars. i think we should bring all people that are in for murder and staying there for life, out back, put a bullet in the base of their skull (cause its instant death they say.). throw them in a pit, pour some lime over them, throw dirt over it. call it a day.

yeah its not humane, but you think those people were thinking that when they killed those people? they dont give a sh#t so why should we? because they are born again? so, let god sort them out. god will save the "born agains". :D

how bout just drop them off i the middle of Africa or Detroit at night?

[JetLi'sFearless]

Not so, they just have elevated levels of preditory agression...and are insane to the point of not having fear. They have no superior strength, or technique. they are still just men.

actually they would have been the ones running the show, ever see the movie lord of the flies?

[Royal Dragon]

Doubt it, the over all tribe would kill them. They are crazy, and unstable. The leaders must have good command and leadership skills. Crazy people donot have this ability.

Just being pure evil does not get you very far. All the ones in jail would be dead in ancient times.


but thats what makes them sof earless and ruthless, and be able to do basically anything without holding back. They [probably make the best soldiers, and assasins.

Reply]
No, becasue they are crazy, undiscaplined, randomly impusive, and excessibly rebelious. All are quailites that would make them horrible soldiers or assasines.

[JetLi'sFearless]

Just being pure evil does not get you very far. All the ones in jail would be dead in ancient times.

hitler, Stalin, Saadam, and kim jong disagree with you. And Hitler and Stalin actually being crazy and paranoid on top of being evil.

[JetLi'sFearless]

whats funny is one of the men in the article, Fountain actually went to prison for killing his officer in the navy or something. Later he was claimed to become religious or something and same abbots gave him some title or something after being put in solitary confinement. The other guy judging by his own articles seems soft spoken and like a regular type fo guy.

[Shaolinlueb]

how bout just drop them off i the middle of Africa or Detroit at night?

actually we should night drop them all into north korea with guns and explosive neck collars on, so when they take over the communist regime we blow all thier heads and march in there.

[lunghushan]

actually we should night drop them all into north korea with guns and explosive neck collars on, so when they take over the communist regime we blow all thier heads and march in there.

Honestly I think a lot of crime is due to a bizarre social experiment. Mess with people's nutrition with factory farmed food, mess up their family structure with liberalism and social programs, frack up the educational system, take away the jobs so they have no money, fill their media with gansters and rap music, then lock them up in jails with little to do and no hope, give them a record so they can't get a decent job when they get out even if there were any, and then see what happens.

Well, it's kindof obvious what happens. You wind up with messed up people.

Now, if we were to try another experiment and increase their nutrition, fix the family structure, fix the educational system, give them jobs, fill the media with positive messages, and institute more apt punishments such as making them work off stealing, whip them for violence, kill them for murder, etc ... what would happen then?

Hmmmm ...

[JetLi'sFearless]

actually we should night drop them all into north korea with guns and explosive neck collars on, so when they take over the communist regime we blow all thier heads and march in there.

isnt that kind of what castro did (watching the movie scarface for instance) when he dropped all those cuban criminals to the u.s?

[JetLi'sFearless]

Honestly I think a lot of crime is due to a bizarre social experiment. Mess with people's nutrition with factory farmed food, mess up their family structure with liberalism and social programs, frack up the educational system, take away the jobs so they have no money, fill their media with gansters and rap music, then lock them up in jails with little to do and no hope, give them a record so they can't get a decent job when they get out even if there were any, and then see what happens.

Well, it's kindof obvious what happens. You wind up with messed up people.

Now, if we were to try another experiment and increase their nutrition, fix the family structure, fix the educational system, give them jobs, fill the media with positive messages, and institute more apt punishments such as making them work off stealing, whip them for violence, kill them for murder, etc ... what would happen then?

Hmmmm ...

whats up with black people though, isnt there more of them in prison than college? And not just in america but it seems in other countries they also are like that. not saying all are but what accounts to so many fuk ups in their race? Nobody please take offense I didnt mean to offend anyone, as there are fuk ups in all races as illustrated in the opening articles.

[lunghushan]

whats up with black peopkle though, isnt there more of them in prison than college? And not just in america but it seems in other countries they also are like that. not saying all ar ebut what accounts to so many fuk ups in their race?

I don't know. Actually blacks in the U.S. were far better off before the civil rights movement.

Afterwards their family structure fragmented, and something like 66% of them are now from single mother families, and their incarceration rate went sky high. I don't know what caused it, though.

It must be the hippies fault. Those ****ed hippies.

[Shaolinlueb]

you know what i think there is a lot of crime. not enough fear in the us citizen. you commit a crime, you get free living. most places like china, people dont commit crimes because they get shot. same thing in the arab countries, not a lot of crime. i think we should be harder on our criminals, less humane prisons and more executions. **** they're prisoners, they are the bottom of the barrel. of course there is different degree's of crimes. im tlaking about these murders and rapists and such. embessaling and stuff, they should make examples too. car thiefs, make them wash cars all day.

[Royal Dragon]

hitler, Stalin, Saadam, and kim jong disagree with you. And Hitler and Stalin actually being crazy and paranoid on top of being evil.

Reply]
Three examples out of thousands, maybe 10's of thousands world wide. These 3 are the exception that proves the rule.

you know what i think there is a lot of crime. not enough fear in the us citizen. you commit a crime, you get free living. most places like china, people dont commit crimes because they get shot. same thing in the arab countries, not a lot of crime.

Reply]
Frm stories I have heard, it sounds more like really poor law enforcement by lazy, corrupt officials....

[JetLi'sFearless]

You mean like the ones in iron Monkey?

[Royal Dragon]

No, from guys in China.

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Off;action=display;num=1163424531

[Merryprankster]

It's very simple. It's called BRAIN DAMAGE. They've done studies and these people don't have any function in the part of the brain where conscience and compassion reside. That's why they call them PSYCHOPATHS. Some of them are also XYY.

Sort of.

Saying "they've done studies" isn't enough for me and the XYY thing is way off base, AFAIK. I believe that one was put to rest awhile ago as being a lousy predictor of violent behavior - or has there been recent research to try and reconfirm it.

"Conscience and compassion" are an interesting idea but in the end, a Cost/Benefit analysis could keep a person from doing something that would land them in jail (although that person would still be an *******), so that can't explain the whole thing away neatly.

And, quite frankly, if brain damage or genetics were responsible, then you've just established a medical basis for their problems, which eliminates free will, which, in turn, makes them patients, not criminals. You can't committ a crime without some kind of intent, and if it's beyond your control.... (yes, there is reckless endangerment, etc but there is intent to be irresponsible).

Now, there ARE people for whom "brain damage" is a sort of acceptable answer. Sociopaths come to mind. These people completely lack the ability to empathize with people, animals, etc. This makes them completely self centered to the point that other beings are mere objects. They will think nothing of manipulating, hurting or killing you - whatever seems most appropriate to get their goal most effeciently. It would be no different to them than breaking down a door. Quite creepy.

Rosemary's Baby indeed!

[DarkTiger]

[QUOTE=lunghushan;733565]I don't know. Actually blacks in the U.S. were far better off before the civil rights movement.

Afterwards their family structure fragmented, and something like 66% of them are now from single mother families, and their incarceration rate went sky high. I don't know what caused it, though.


WTF? you mean to tell me that you are ignorant enough to think that blacks in the U.S. were better off being hung, and killed in any way imaginable, for breaking the slightest of rules(a young boy whistling at a white woman for example), living in fear for themselves and their families for their entire lives, and being treated as if they were less than human in some cases was a better life, no correction, far better life than after the civil rights movement?

If your answer in any way shape or form(which I beleieve you have already answered) is yes, then you need to check yourself,and keep your stupid assed coments to yourself until you gain the intellect to make a competent statement on an issue, such as race, that touches so many so severely.

[lunghushan]

If your answer in any way shape or form(which I beleieve you have already answered) is yes, then you need to check yourself,and keep your stupid assed coments to yourself until you gain the intellect to make a competent statement on an issue, such as race, that touches so many so severely.

LOL Actually it wasn't my observation but people much smarter than me. I don't really see the difference when their HIV rate is approaching 2% and when they're something like 5x as likely to be in jail as whites.

If I were a person of African American descent, I'd be p*ssed off that I was treated so unfairly. Although I don't think the blame can be entirely placed outside their own communities.


And, quite frankly, if brain damage or genetics were responsible, then you've just established a medical basis for their problems, which eliminates free will, which, in turn, makes them patients, not criminals. You can't committ a crime without some kind of intent, and if it's beyond your control.... (yes, there is reckless endangerment, etc but there is intent to be irresponsible)

As for the brain damage thing, I think we can assume there is no such thing as 'free will', and people are products of their environment and conditioning. What else could they be? Not to get B.F. Skinner on you, but yes I think it is pretty clear that sociopaths are flawed and have flawed conditioning, and we have 2 choices either a) fix them or b) put them down.

Or c) let things be messed up, and try to contain it, which is what we currently do.

It's pretty simple.

[DarkTiger]

LOL Actually it wasn't my observation but people much smarter than me. I don't really see the difference when their HIV rate is approaching 2% and when they're something like 5x as likely to be in jail as whites.

If I were a person of African American descent, I'd be p*ssed off that I was treated so unfairly. Although I don't think the blame can be entirely placed outside their own communities.



As for the brain damage thing, I think we can assume there is no such thing as 'free will', and people are products of their environment and conditioning. What else could they be? Not to get B.F. Skinner on you, but yes I think it is pretty clear that sociopaths are flawed and have flawed conditioning, and we have 2 choices either a) fix them or b) put them down.

Or c) let things be messed up, and try to contain it, which is what we currently do.

It's pretty simple.


I wouldn't give a sh!t whose observation it was. IMO They were dumb as f&ck for making such observation, and who ever believes in such observation is an even dumber f&ck, and who ever spews belief in such observation is an even dumber f&ck than the last dumb f&ck.

1. slavery, less than a man, constant humiliation, life of fear, etc, etc

2. jacked up family structure, whatever else you said, whatever else you can think of, plus rights.

which one would be far better off for you.

and I wouldn't doubt that you could'nt see the difference anyway, but why do you think that the HIV rate is approaching 2%, and they are 5x as likely to go to jail?

[lunghushan]

I wouldn't give a sh!t whose observation it was. IMO They were dumb as f&ck for making such observation, and who ever believes in such observation is an even dumber f&ck, and who ever spews belief in such observation is an even dumber f&ck than the last dumb f&ck.

1. slavery, less than a man, constant humiliation, life of fear, etc, etc

2. jacked up family structure, whatever else you said, whatever else you can think of, plus rights.

which one would be far better off for you.

and I wouldn't doubt that you could'nt see the difference anyway, but why do you think that the HIV rate is approaching 2%, and they are 5x as likely to go to jail?

Umm, before the civil rights movement they were no longer slaves. That was about 100 years prior to the civil rights movement they were granted their freedom.

They were separate ... there was segregation ... not slavery.

Personally, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Like I said before, I think it is because a) bad nutrition b) bad social position in society along with c) bad education and d) lack of family structure therefore e) they have a higher rate of problems.

The only other answer that would be at all plausible is they are inherently genetically defective when it comes to brains, which is racism, and I'm not a racist, therefore I have to assume it is because of the reasons I gave before.

I have spent enough time among another social group which has a high rate of disadvantage in society, and that is native Americans, that it doesn't seem implausible that the inherent racism in society is the reason that native Americans and blacks are where they are now. When people look at you funny and have a lot of preconceived notions about you in a negative way, it is much harder for you to succeed in life, don't you think? If you go onto a job and people think you'll do bad and treat you like you're an idiot or somehow inferior or weird, don't you think that will make it harder for you to succeed? They won't give you the opportunities for advancement, they won't give you the hard assignments, they won't give you positions of authority because they don't really trust that you can do a good job.

Therefore, I think that segregation, in part, allowed blacks a lot of dignity amongst racism that they don't have today in a more integrated society. I'm not saying that's an ideal outcome.

Eventually, I think, things will swing more towards more acceptance of diversity. But in the meantime we have a lot of problems.

Does that make sense?

[FuXnDajenariht]

this is what i mean by people thinking in black and white....

"the present situation is bad so the previous one of second-class citizenry and complete social discrimination must of been better." :rolleyes:

ever heard of cause and effect? how about saying they were both pretty sh!tty existences to deal with.




on a side note im surprised this thread wasn't locked already

[JetLi'sFearless]

I have spent enough time among another social group which has a high rate of disadvantage in society, and that is native Americans, that it doesn't seem implausible that the inherent racism in society is the reason that native Americans and blacks are where they are now. When people look at you funny and have a lot of preconceived notions about you in a negative way, it is much harder for you to succeed in life, don't you think? If you go onto a job and people think you'll do bad and treat you like you're an idiot or somehow inferior or weird, don't you think that will make it harder for you to succeed?

actually Id become more paranoid than anything else and probably have a lower self esteem thus less balls/will to commit crimes, but thats just me. In Hs I had almost no friends and quite a few enemies.

[lunghushan]

this is what i mean by people thinking in black and white....

"the present situation is bad so the previous one of second-class citizenry and complete social discrimination must of been better." :rolleyes:

ever heard of cause and effect? how about saying they were both pretty sh!tty existences to deal with.

on a side note im surprised this thread wasn't locked already

Well it's a much bigger issue than racism. If you consider that in a large part the breakdown of the family has occurred due to WOMEN having more rights ....

Before women had rights to divorce there was much less divorce, and most divorces (something like 70% or more) are instigated by women.

So single parent families are primarily women. It has been shown that children in single parent families have much higher rates of delinquency than children from two parent families.

So basically, we broke the family to give rights to women. To give rights to people -- a choice. So now we have a huge amount of delinquency compared to what we had prior to that. The U.S. has one of the highest rates of divorce in the world and also the highest percentage of incarcerated population in the world.

Blacks are only the 'race' with the highest rates of single mothers. Coincidentally? (Probably not), they also have the highest incarceration rate.

So really this is all about women's rights. One would assume (hope) that at some point things will change in this regard and that people will accept single parents or somehow that the delinquency associated with single parents will reverse.

So hopefully, society broke things (the family), things will be worse for a while, and then they will get better.

So we had a system that worked. It would seem it is better than what we have now, in terms of crime, delinquency, incarceration rates and all that. But certain people were disadvantaged compared to others.

In rectifying that disadvantage, by giving women and other races more rights, we totally BROKE things, and things got worse overall.

But hopefully over time, they will get better. People will get used to it.

I'm not arguing that we should subjugate women and blacks and other races at all. I'm just arguing that you should look at things from a non-emotional standpoint, and consider the implications of all of it.

That by taking the structure out of society we have created something that is not quite what we would like it to be, that has a lot of problems, and we haven't put a new structure in place. We have wait for it to evolve. Hopefully it will evolve to something better. I have no idea if it will or not, however.

[FuXnDajenariht]

uh huh....

and your sociology degree is from where?

[lunghushan]

uh huh....

and your sociology degree is from where?

My sociology degree is from having to drink beers for countless hours with sociology majors to get laid in college. Don't even get me started.

My degree was in science, not sociology. Sociology is at best a soft science but don't assume that I don't know pretty much everything that went on in those classes having been lectured in it at depth.

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol uh huh, lectured while in a drunken stupor by someone just as hammered.

im jus ****in with ya though but i think things are more complicated than you seem to think.

[Royal Dragon]

Do you have any idea how much useless stuff men know, from listening to women chatter on, and on and on, just so we can get laid later?

He probably knows what he is talking about, even though he does not want to.

[lunghushan]

Do you have any idea how much useless stuff men know, from listening to women chatter on, and on and on, just so we can get laid later?

He probably knows what he is talking about, even though he does not want to.

I would tell you about the time I had to spend about 4 hours getting lectured by my room-mates girlfriend who was half black, half hispanic, from Oakland, about the fact that all she was getting for Christmas was a CD she bought for herself. (She was a sociology major).

But you guys don't deserve that kind of abuse.

[lunghushan]

lol uh huh, lectured while in a drunken stupor by someone just as hammered.

im jus ****in with ya though but i think things are more complicated than you seem to think.

Well there are 6+ billion people in the world. I don't think I have all the answers.

With 6+ billion people in the world it's weird so few post on here. Maybe they're smarter than us or something.

[JetLi'sFearless]

remember that white compton I was telling you about my grandma was from in Poland whrere I saw a mid day robbery of two people by two people, and where my friends went to a bar where there was a gun battle, and a cop was also shot, all in the one Summer I went to visit my grandma for vacation? Oh and there was a neighboorhood with like 60 percent ex cons in buildings that looks like the auschwits concentration camp with a bunch of long brick buildings in exactly that type of shape like jordon downs but alot longer and more creepy. and one guy I kinda knew had a swastika tatoo on his chest and he would walk right through the middle of town without his shirt showing it. Anyway that guy got ina streetfight at night with this guy who is my homie, and i broke it up ebfor eit got too deep:
http://i15.tinypic.com/2hf8bq9.jpg

oh and this is the guy from the same town who did time for stabbign someone near the heart, grand theft auto, and a few other crimes (the guy witht he swastika also did time). In that one summer he went to the bar/disco where the gun battle took palce he also beat up like 3 guys in one day afterwards a gang was trying to kill him for beating up the wrong person, and one guy who was looking for him was so crazy that he jumped up and down on a cop car after already serving time, the neighboorhood wchih is like auschwits and full of ex cons even were putting money up together to pay for the perosn that gets rid of him and kills him. There was also a guy with the nickname Hitler from my grandma's hood, who just got out at the time from prison for killing a man with scissors and was a bouncer.


oh and this guy form the pics to get away from that guys gang, he robbed a small store near our apartment complex where the only thign taken was food (soups) and cigaretts, lol and some cops and dogs were chasing him at night before he got away.

Oh and I forgot to mention the scariest looking white guy ever was from there, as well as he looked basically like a white version of that smiley guy from training day but alot meaner, and with mroe black and white tatoos, and a very dark black hair as well and dark mean look, his face looked like a rat as well, and he did time for murder and I remember some guy was running away down the block as I looked out my window and saw that guy later walking around loooking for him ro chasing him. He was also trying to burn this other guy around my age who is now in prison for murdering hsis tep dad. The onyl guy who I can think of comes close to him in looks is that white guy from that sacramento prison documentary on national gepgraphic who goes "whooooo" after basically killing or beating the crap of some guy and egtting tackled and taken away by like 10 guards. Anyoens een that show? Oh I also forgot to mention I got almost robbed there myself but didnt have any moeny on me so I jsut got sucke dpunched in the face.

Its just a really fascinating world. I kinda miss that stuff, all the adrenaline and the turf wars and such.

[Ray Pina]

how come some hardened criminals and gang members are able to kill with such easy and little hesitation while everyone else has so much fear, adrenaline, regret, inhibitions, etc. before even confronting the target?


Arguments have been made that you will find the last of truly free men in prison, because they could not be shackled by society's self-imposed rules and regulations we've had to make those shackles literal and reinfoced them with concrete.

These men are dangerous, no doubt about it. But their real danger is in exactly what you propose... where do they get off to rob a bank? Or kill a man they caught banging his wife? Or, just felt the need to force himself sexually on another... something that most every species on this planet does.

This is not my commentary on right and wrong. Just saying some people will do what they will. I myself personally can not respect a legal system that legally supports the sales of cigarrettes -- something proven to not only cause cancer but manufcatured in such a way as to create addiction -- but locks people up for growing and smoking other healthier, smokeable plant, namely cannabis.

How do you respect a society that says its wrong to kill but supports a war being fought over oil so we can drive our SUVs another 20 years? Who supports a tyrant one minute and publicly executes him the next?

At least a criminal is a criminal. You know what you get. Politicians and cops? They are the ones you have to keep an eye on.

[FuXnDajenariht]

its called being civilized or at the least having a small amount of human emotion Jet.

[Eddie]

Just saying some people will do what they will. I myself personally can not respect a legal system that legally supports the sales of cigarrettes -- something proven to not only cause cancer but manufcatured in such a way as to create addiction -- but locks people up for growing and smoking other healthier, smokeable plant, namely cannabis.



Healthy perhaps, still a threat to society. I live in a country where, although officially illegal, you can find people smoking marijuana just about anywhere. Its as common as rice in China.

Although I support your arguments on smoking laws etc, and I also don’t like restrictions that politicians impose on us, I do however feel that in this case, the ban on marijuana could be just. Pot smokers are usually less violent than alcohol abusers, but they usually also less productive. This is the real threat, as it hinders productivity and could ultimately lead to economical downfall. There are plenty of evidence that can support this argument, simply take a drive through any African village and see for yourself.

However, in the same breath, drugs and specially stuff like MJ, are pretty effective ‘tools of oppression’ that can (and has been) be used to oppress people and degrade them to a modern form of slavery. The British used opium in China and India, and our old government used similar methods to oppress people down here (although this is strictly no official).

I try to live an ‘alternative’ lifestyle, where I try not to be enslaved by societies grips such as debt etc, and I view myself as an open minded person. If people do drugs and they know about the dangers, I could not really be phased. I have my own life, however, as a business man, I realise the dangers of drug abuse, and understand how it can effect economical growth.