Iron Shirt Qigong

[blackmantis]

Can someone tell me about Iron Shirt Qigong?

Is there any truth in it? Can it really protect the body like some sort of body armour? What does the training entail?

Many thanks,

S

[JDK]

I would exercise caution. This type of "Internal Training" is dangerous, directly associated with Eastern Mysticism and ..in my opinion from a christian point of veiw....to be avoided at all costs.
When in the realm of the spirit-world...one needs the protection of Jesus Christ and the power of His Blood , along with The Holy Spirit's Presence.

JDK


Are There Dangerous Qigong Teachers PART I

Unscrupulous Qigong teachers can be dangerous to your wealth, health, intellect and spirit.

Two examples of people donating large sums of money to organizations will be given. There are many other examples. The danger of these con men is their charm. They pretend to be your best friend, care about your welfare and "feel your pain". Many victims, even after they know that they have been taken, still adore these con artists.

One well-known guru was driven around in a Rolls Royce. His followers donated money to him, while they lived in poverty in an ashram in Oregon. He did not impose a moral code on his followers and beatings were documented at the ashram. He died in prison.

Another famous story involves a prisoner who practiced breath control. Without being detected he could cause pages of a book to move by blowing. He pretended to be a born again Christian and converted many inmates by causing the pages of a bible to move and attributing this to the Holy Spirit. After being released, he opened a Kung Fu school and had a large following because of his mystical powers. He became famous and was even invited to Egypt to treat Anwar Sadat. One wealthy man had donated large sums of money to this charlatan and began to spend hours meditating in his room. His sister became suspicious and hired Randi the magician to investigate this martial artist. One of his tricks was to cause a dollar bill under a fish tank to move by blowing in a small space between the tank and the table. Randi distracted him and turned the tank so there was no longer any space between the tank and the table. The Kung Fu artist could not make the dollar bill move. Randi made it move by blowing in the crack, which now faced him. The martial artist thought Randi was a Master and wanted to study with him. This con artist also persuaded some of his students to get guns for him. He was arrested and jailed on a weapons charge. He escaped from jail and still at large. This story appeared in a popular Kung Fu magazine. Even though this con artist had been exposed, it was hinted that some of his powers were real.

Both sleep paralysis and narcolepsy can induce vivid hallucinations since the sufferer is "awake" in a REM sleep state. Some of these people can vividly describe being kidnapped by aliens and having operations performed on them. There are even marks where the instruments used in the procedures were inserted. One explanation of these marks is that these people are in a hypnotic state due to sleep paralysis or narcolepsy. The mind influences the body, which causes the marks to appear. Not many people believe these stories. However, millions of people believe Qigong Masters when they describe their travels in other dimensions, new forms of Qigong, extraordinary powers, etc. Two masters can have entirely different methods and interpretations of reality. Both claim millions of followers. Can they both be right, each have part of the truth or are they delusional? Do you believe that any Qigong system has millions of followers? Any Qigong teacher or long time practitioner will know that many students quit after a few lessons or don't practice regularly. Are such students followers?

The danger of belonging to such a cult is that it dulls the intellect. Some people become mindless robots and accept everything at face value instead of using logic, science or proper statistical methods. For example, a common claim is that a Master can cure any disease. This fact has never been verified.

In spiritual Qigong most Masters warn their students not to use any esoteric powers that they gain - for example, don't spend time treating sick people. Some reasons given are that one can be injured by the evil that is causing the disease or that you really can't cure a sick person because it's his karma to be sick. Such advice will keep a disciple on the spiritual path, but is not conducive to the development of science.

There are many example of Qigong masters in China and elsewhere who used fake photos, chemically treated paper which catches fire and other carnival tricks to impress their followers. Other phenomena can be explained using Physics or Physiology. For instance, to convince a student that he was injecting Qi, the Master would push hard on the student's eyeballs. This would cause flashes of light, which were interpreted as Qi flow. Sometimes it was the students who used trickery to impress non-believers in the powers of their Master.

and excessive practice of Qigong and meditation can cause psychoses. Such cases have been documented in a book on the Kundalini experience. Now there is even the medical term "Qigong psychotic reaction" listed in the diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association. The dangers of excessive practice are also known in China. Dr. Zhang Tongling of Beijing Medical University found in a study of 145 people that fanatical Qigong practice could bring out latent psychiatric problems and cause hallucinations. She runs a clinic for obsessive Qigong practitioners.

Preoccupation with Qigong can also cause ardent practitioners to become dysfunctional and neglect necessary daily tasks or dull ambition so that one does not reach his full potential

Seizures can also result from improper or excessive practice of Qigong or meditation. These seizures become easier to induce with practice. Some Masters regard seizures as a form of religious ecstasy. This behavior should be investigated scientifically. It is more common in Indian meditation, since many teachers don't emphasize putting the tongue on the roof of the mouth to connect the Du and Ren channels so that excess energy does not get stuck in the head.

Improper practice or the wrong kind of Qigong can cause many physical problems such as hair loss, dizziness, headaches, nausea, difficult breathing, etc. Concentrating on acupoints can lead to Qi stagnation and other problems. Improper breathing can raise or lower the blood pressure. Strenuous Qigong and low postures are contraindicated in pregnancy or during menstruation. People with arthritis or injured joints should not practice certain postures. Gentle movements are better than static movements for certain conditions such as hemorrhoids. Qigong that creates heat is not suitable for people who suffer from a hot, Yang condition such as inflammation. Improper posture can cause chronic pain in any part of the body.

The proper practice of Qigong can also cause problems for certain students. The teacher should warn the students of these problems and not prescribe that type of Qigong if the student doesn't have the will power to resist temptations. For example certain forms of Qigong can increase one's appetite for food and/ or sex.

Energetic problems such as deranged flow of Qi and blood, stagnation of Qi and blood. Leaking of genuine Qi and unchecked flow of pathogenic Qi can occur. A teacher should be able to recognize and treat such problems and any others which occur. [/COLOR]

.

[JDK]

During lectures by Qigong Masters, there are people who exhibit spontaneous movements; others don't. Some people claim to have been cured of diseases. Similar phenomena occur with Christian and Russian faith healers. Are they using Qi? Why doesn't everyone move or be cured if the Master is so powerful? Studies in China have shown that there is no correlation between the movements of the patient and the Master. This seems logical because different people have different blockages to their Qi flow. The injected Qi breaking through these blockages probably causes the movement.

A large component of a legitimate healing at such an event may be belief. The mind can control the body. There are people with split personalities having one personality well while another has diabetes. An interesting experiment would be to publicize a non-healer as a Master and see how many people he could heal. These results could be compared to those obtained by a healer who is unknown to the audience.


Most authorities estimate that it can take years to teach someone to project Qi for healing purposes. Dr. Y. Omura devised a new method and taught some children to project healing Qi in less than a week. This method was not tried on adults, so it is not certain if it is faster than conventional training. According to the Taoist's theory of aging, children should be able to learn Qi projection faster than adults. However, some of the children suffered side effects and he is no longer teaching this method. Dr. Omura also detected abnormalities in the meridians of practitioners of certain forms of Qigong. It is not known if these abnormalities are permanent or harmful in the long run. He also devised methods to avoid certain side effects of Qigong practice. However, some people think that some side effects are a way for the body to cure itself and should not be stopped. For example, the body may be discharging toxins. They eventually stop on their own with practice. The interested reader can find further details in Dr. Omura's J. of Electroacupuncture.

Neither my teacher, Gin Foon Mark, nor I have ever met anyone that could push people without physical contact. Their technique works on their own students or others with a similar mind set who are suggestible or believe in such things. Most such Masters admit that they can't push some people because they are not open to absorbing Qi properly and will only become ill. Masters of empty force estimate that they can push from 3 to 6 out of 10 people without contact. Some students of such teachers said that they don't have to move but they just jump to show respect to their Master or because they feel his Qi and jump to rid themselves of this unpleasant sensation. The danger with this type of training is that some students believe that such techniques are good for self-defense. Even if such techniques worked on 9 out of 10 people you could be killed in a random encounter.

What is an empty force Master doing? If he is actually exerting a force, then he should be able to push a chair. So far no empty force Master has been able to do this. Another more plausible explanation is that his Qi contains some information, which influences some control system in the body, which in turn causes the movement. This is how a minute current can cause a crane to lift tremendous loads.

Remarks

Some Masters claim to project external qigong during their lectures. One such lecture in the Shanghai Auditorium, which can hold more than 18,000 people, occurred on March 7, 1990. It is described in the Xinmin Evening Paper. During the six hour lecture many in the audience began to shout, laugh, cry and move about A young worker, Pan Jiangang, experienced heart palpitations, a flushed face, and sweated profusely. Eventually, he ran out frightened for his life. Guo Daiwu, an officer in the Industrial and Commercial Bureau, danced for joy in the stands. He began to spit white foam and died. Some people claimed to be cured of diseases.



Meng Jikong, a leader of the Hengyang Acrobatic Troupe in Hunan province was not a Qigongist. He wanted to expose these fraudulent Qigong lectures. He billed himself as a super-qigongist and widely advertised that he was going to hold a Qigong Lecture using super Qigong to heal diseases. Over one thousand believers attended the meeting. Forty percent of the audience could not sit still and had all sorts of strange reactions. This is about the same proportion of the audience that exhibit reactions during a Qigong lecture by a so-called Master. After the lecture, Meng confessed that he did not study Qigong and could not project external Qi, but caused the people to move by suggestion.


However, in some forms of Qigong, such as standing on the stake, unpleasant sensations and pain are quite common. You must have guidance on how to overcome these sensations. Man is distinguished from other animals by his intelligence. Thus, the ultimate authority should be your brain and not your feelings[/COLOR]

[Dale Dugas]

Can someone tell me about Iron Shirt Qigong?

Is there any truth in it? Can it really protect the body like some sort of body armour? What does the training entail?

Many thanks,

S

Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

The internal version uses movement to stretch and strengthen the fascia of the body. Doing this causes it to thicken and strengthen it. Add these movement exercises to the standing exercises and you create a powerful root and the ability to absorb more abuse than someone who has never trained it.

There is very little spiritual training involved with iron vest training.

The warning from JDK is unfounded and clouded by his rather apparent right wing christianity.

Be well,

Dale Dugas

[blackmantis]

Cool, thanks for the ideas both of you, though I'm not really interested in Christian ideas on Martial Arts so I'll steer clear of that.

Does the internal method work well? I mean, can masters of Iron Shirt truly withstand full blown attacks? Isn't Pak Mei supposed to have been able to do this?

Hmmm, any more thoughts?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can answer that: "Yes, they can."

But more importantly, do they have "Iron Palm"?

I know there's mixed consensus on the reality of Iron Qi Kung........but I can tell you, whether or not it's real or fake, people who claim to do Iron Palm hit like a friggin' freight train. Their punches aren't that much harder than mine. Their bones just make such a startling impact.

And mine do nothing against the iron shirts I've met.

Then again.......go to Youtube and type in "Sifu Glen"......and have a big laugh at CMA's expense.

That guy is hilarious......it's all in the hair.......

[Shaolinlueb]

if you dont have a proper teacher for it. dont do it. thats all i can say. dont believe the mysticism crap jdk posted. he's one of those people that think anything non christian is satanic and occult. its ok its who he is. but unless you have a proper teacher for any iron body training, just go buy a 20lb iron chestplate ;)

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

The internal version uses movement to stretch and strengthen the fascia of the body. Doing this causes it to thicken and strengthen it. Add these movement exercises to the standing exercises and you create a powerful root and the ability to absorb more abuse than someone who has never trained it.
Dale Dugas

Herbal pills are also used in conjunction with this training.

[Ravenshaw]

The warning from JDK is unfounded and clouded by his rather apparent right wing christianity.

I am forced to agree...

[Wong Ying Home]

JDK, quotes as part of his view that iron shirt practice is involved in cults....Hmm..and from his over the top ramming down the throat of his rather blinkered view I would suggest his view is rather cult like :cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

JDK, quotes as part of his view that iron shirt practice is involved in cults....Hmm..and from his over the top ramming down the throat of his rather blinkered view I would suggest his view is rather cult like :cool:

you actually read all that? i didnt.

[Wong Ying Home]

Actually I scanned it very quickly. :D

There is a very small amountof mertit in terms of incorrect practice is harmfull, which no one disagrees with hence make sure you find a good teacher.

BUt he is mixing, kundalini practice with iron shirt and it is different thing, and then wrapping it all up in his own personal views of religion. I have no issue with a point of view being put arcoss,,,,,,,but all he did was cut and paste from other courses....so he is not exactly speaking from personal experience...and there fore can't really comment as he has no knowledge of what he is talking about.

[JDK]

Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

The internal version uses movement to stretch and strengthen the fascia of the body. Doing this causes it to thicken and strengthen it. Add these movement exercises to the standing exercises and you create a powerful root and the ability to absorb more abuse than someone who has never trained it.

There is very little spiritual training involved with iron vest training.

The warning from JDK is unfounded and clouded by his rather apparent right wing christianity.

Be well,

Dale Dugas

Hi Dale,

You are absolutely right on on your desription of two different types or schools of Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket.

I made a mistake in my posts by not citing the sources...that were not me I clipped and pasted them from other sites. So if you have a problem with the Info....take it up with them

Here is another genuine QI Gong teacher who states the following warning:

Section four (chs. 18-19) is on “Qi Deviations in Qigong Training.” The basic concept here is that qi moves in patterns that are natural to the seasons and can deviate in various ways. All changes in the body that are not part of the natural cycle are then precursors to disease. After a general discussion of these issues, the author emphasizes that while it is good to build up qi, too much qi can be dangerous and unleashed currents may be more harmful than good. He focuses especially on the dangers to the mind, what he calls “soul and spirit deviations” or, in Western terms, neuroses and psychoses. He sees these deviations as turbid qi rising to the head but also in the form of ghosts, spirits, and other yin-yang beings that influence people’s lives. In all cases, treatments include not only physical Qigong but also meditative methods.

http://www.daoiststudies.org/review.johnson.php

Here is another: " Identify the benefits and dangers of qigong
http://www.healthpositive.com/MoreQCEH.htm

[JDK]

Since kundalini yoga has much in commom with Chinese Meditation and QI Gong exersises...I post his article. And before anyone says WHY IS HE TALING ABOUT YOGA!!! WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH INTERNAL ARTS PRACTICE ???

I can only hope someone else on this Board has the knowledge and courage to point out the varius similarities..... anything we do to tap into the subconcious mind or spirit -world poses potential danger.A...doesnt happen all the tiem..but why take the chance?

We are in the Flesh now...NOT in the spirit.
I believe we should steer clear of involving ourselves in the spirit world ( however you choose to veiw it or label it) and take care of the physical things required while we are in human form. After death we will occupy a spirit body for all eternity!

JDK

If we take the psychological perspective and view kundalini
as the power latent in our unconscious then it is easy to
understand that awakening this force is going to bring a
greater amount of unconscious material into our
consciousness. Even in the best of circumstances this is
likely to be uncomfortable and if an individual is barely
coping with his unconscious even under normal
circumstances then awakening kundalini may push the
individual over into psychosis. This phenomenon has been
documented many times.

Forceful methods of awakening kundalini pose additional
dangers. Because quite forceful methods can be used to
awaken kundalini these techniques themselves are
potentially physically and mentally disruptive. An
individual named Gopi Krishna awakened his kundalini by
doing unguided meditation on his crown cakra. His life after
awakening was both blessed by ecstatic bliss and tormented
by physical and mental discomfort. Eventually his
experience stabilized.

He wrote down his experiences in a
recently re-released autbiography entitled ``Living with
Kundalini.'' [Gopi Krishna's autobiography appears to be an
honest representation of his experiences but it is only one
extreme datapoint in the panorama of experience on
kundalini yoga. It represents dangers in forceful unguided
practice but it is not representative of a typical
practicioner's experience.

http://paranormal.se/faq/kundalin.faq

[Lamassu]

What does any of this have to do with martial arts?! the only question that was asked was whether or not Iron Shirt training was "real" or not and what the training entails. I don't see where there is any call for a religious/spiritual debate to be brought up.

Here's my take on Iron shirt training that my instructor taught me:

Bone develops calcium deposits whenever exposed to trauma ie. rolling a 30 lb. iron bar on your forearms, these deposits compress where there would be pockets of air in the bone and result in a denser matter making the bone stronger and able to withstand more punishment. As for the chest area, a student uses a makiwari board and beats it across his chest. This trauma causes red blood cells to rush to the affected area and reinforce the muscle tissue making it denser and able to withstand more punishment. This is called science, plain and simple, any spirituality associated with the training comes from it's historical background to interpret how and why doing these techniques will give you a tough and sturdy hide that would be like wearing an "iron shirt". There's no reason to bring up a religious debate on a scientific practice. It doesn't matter what religion you follow and it's no one else's business to go preaching about whether or not to pursue an alternative form of spirituality.

Chrisitianity, Kundalini, Yoga, Hindu, all of these are moot in point and fail to answer the question. Let's stay on topic.

[GeneChing]

The more I work with qigong masters, the more I realize the profound effect it can have on the ego. That being said, a lot of hard qigong can be demystified into gradual conditioning, and that's only really harmful if you try to rush things. If you're into pursuing something like Iron Shirt, please do. It's a traditional art that takes an intense amount of dedication, and because the commitment is so costly, few see it through. The best course is to research the methods so at the very least, you can tell a genuine master from a charlatan. As always, do your research. The more research you do in preparation, the greater chance that you'll be able to identify a good teacher. There are a lot of fakes.

The three main resources I'd recommend from our materials would be our Iron Body and Power Meditation DVD (http://www.martialartsmart.net/prat102.html) and our 2003 March/April hard qigong special issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=317). I also did an e-zine article that tackles this topic - see eXtreme Kungfu Qigong: Hard Qigong and Water Lei Tai Fights in China's Amazing New Tournament (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=471). Worthy of note, since I wrote that article, they've held at least two more qigong feat competitions. I just saw some footage of the 2nd one last week. Great stuff. They didn't do another water lei tai from what I saw but there was some other fascinating sparring games like plum-flower-pole push hands and plank push hands. We're debating about doing another video on it, but we have so many video projects in the queue right now.

[JDK]

You have described ONE method of Iron Shirt...purely physical.
This was addressed by another poster:

Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

My warning is in regards to the Internal Method...the method involving body, soul and spirit.

It really not even about my christian beliefs...it is more a warning ( from the sites I posted) about the possible dangers of delving into the unconcious mind and spirit world.

You ended by saying ,,,Chrisitianity, Kundalini, Yoga, Hindu, all of these are moot in point and fail to answer the question. Let's stay on topic.

I believe we are very much on topic .

JDK

JD

[Lamassu]

You have described ONE method of Iron Shirt...purely physical.
This was addressed by another poster:

Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

My warning is in regards to the Internal Method...the method involving body, soul and spirit.

It really not even about my christian beliefs...it is more a warning ( from the sites I posted) about the possible dangers of delving into the unconcious mind and spirit world.

You ended by saying ,,,Chrisitianity, Kundalini, Yoga, Hindu, all of these are moot in point and fail to answer the question. Let's stay on topic.

I believe we are very much on topic .

JDK

JD


No we're not! All your doing is doomsaying and preaching. The original post has nothing to do with religion. You are the one that brought it up, if you didn't then I'm sure it NEVER would have been included in the discussion. Posting sites that support your personal feelings about "spirituality" only further digressed from the issue. Do you know the specifics in qigong for iron shirt training? Have you ever tried it? Do you know what's supposed to be happening in your body when you do it? I don't, that's why I didn't comment about it. Who am I to tell someone to try or avoid something if I haven't done it myself? Who are you? If you don't want to practice anything "spiritual" then that's you own look out, but we're all big boys and girls on this forum and we can take care of ourselves, and we know what's best and what's not for us. If we wanted to discuss spiritual matters and debate over the particulars of religion, then we would be on a different forum. We're here to discuss martial arts, so let's stick to martial arts.

[Wong Ying Home]

As you openely admit yourself you have no formal traning or knoweldge of Iron shirt, or really internal martial arts for that matter.

You are taking the issue off topic by intertwining your own funadmentalist christian beliefs. You continue to quote snips and entire articles from people you probably do not even know, on a subject that you know nothing of.

You are of course quite welcome to your opinion and have your say as we thankfully live in a democratic world (most of the time).

Internal martial arts have nothing to do with the soul or spirit, they are simply a process of deep mechanical physical development, that allow the parasympathetic nervous system to work in ways that people are generally not in concious/thought control. It is very simply a case of mechincs.

the first neanderthal ran howling from fire untill he could create and control it himself. Torque thrust and compression are three of the main physical requiremnets for both internal and external kung fu, then alignment, speed and power. While rtaining a flexible and pliable body

If you are able to offer an objective point from physical and mental place of self knowledge and not simply quoting doctrine, then you have something of value to add to the discussion. If you don't know what your talking about then how can you offer an objectiove piece of advice.

You Can't !

[K.Brazier]

Hi All,
On qigung I wrote the following


'...you must push your qi to the back using both mind and muscle. The teacher strikes this area to make sure that the student does it correctly and to build the pressure of the qi. The actual posture aids the student in sending the qi to the correct location. You can discern this for yourself by mimicking the posture shown here with fully inflated lungs. With your mouth closed try to push air out of your kidney's. When done correctly you will feel an inflating sensation there.'

From this article

http://plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/Luan.htm#Master%20Luan

Kevin

[richard sloan]

hilarious.

on my best day, I could never come up with hooey of such quality.

[JDK]

As you openely admit yourself you have no formal traning or knoweldge of Iron shirt, or really internal martial arts for that matter.....
If you are able to offer an objective point from physical and mental place of self knowledge and not simply quoting doctrine, then you have something of value to add to the discussion. If you don't know what your talking about then how can you offer an objectiove piece of advice.

You Can't !

First of all...why are you so angry?:confused:
Can we not be civil ? My posts and replies are not angry...and yet you seem seeething with hostility....WHY?

When did I say I had no training of Iron Shirt or Internal Arts ???
I have had formal training from the late Master Ong, Sifu Tony Yang, and Sifu Shenk. I have been involved in practice of Hung-Gar/Shaolin type Martial Arts since 1980

I have also researched and practiced on my own the things I was taught by my teachers.

My Iron Palm training reached the point of being able to break 2 Bricks with a open hand slap.

Here is a good artcile ( tho lengthy) on WHY you cannot discuss Internal Martial Arts without acknowledging the Eastern Mystical connection.

For those who cannot take the time to read the following article..I ask a simple question Why? I am willing to bet most of you have spent hours reading material on the Martial Arts. Just a question for you to consider.

http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm

[wiz cool c]

You have described ONE method of Iron Shirt...purely physical.
This was addressed by another poster:

Iron Vest/Shirt/Jacket training has two schools of material. Those that use external methods, hitting the body with sticks, wire hitters, socks full of beans, rocks and steel shot. Little or no qi gong is used in this method. Basically building up the tolerance to accept pain and abuse.

My warning is in regards to the Internal Method...the method involving body, soul and spirit.

It really not even about my christian beliefs...it is more a warning ( from the sites I posted) about the possible dangers of delving into the unconcious mind and spirit world.

You ended by saying ,,,Chrisitianity, Kundalini, Yoga, Hindu, all of these are moot in point and fail to answer the question. Let's stay on topic.

I believe we are very much on topic .

JDK

JD

Please just shut up. You sound like ****ing Hitler
Plese just shut up.

[Wong Ying Home]

My posts are far from seething or angry, I am not angry with you not in the slightest:) and certainly not hostile to you as a person

It is simply that you chose answer a question on iron shirt practice with a very length y cut and paste from another person writing, I think it woudl have had more value if you had condensed it, to your own words and had passed on you own experience of iron shirt chi gong.

With regard to a persons faith or beleif Gwok Si Gwok Faat Each to thier own, it is simply that at every opportunity you try very hard to interest us with your Christain point of view.

As a buddhist, I do not at every post and shout it to the world and say hey look at what thsi is...even if I believe it to be wonderfull and life enhancing, if I want to know about being a born again Christian I will certainly ask you for your knowledge and advice, however I would not like to have to read constant posting that forces it front of my face. Maybe that is why I object to your posts. I understand that you are passionate and feel you have found the chosen path and want others to have the opportunity but why not simply let us decide if we want your opinion on where religion fits in with Chinese martial arts ;)

Temper your sword and wield it gently

[JDK]

Again I am forced to ask....WHY SUCH HOSTILITY and disrespect AND lack of manners.??
I dont get it. Are you saying its alright to believe and practice anything you want except Christianity ????

Hitler ??????

Your lack of control over your anger makes me sad that some of my former teachers and their Teachers were right...to develop Martial Skill without treating the person as a whole ( Body, Mind, Spirit) is doing them a disservice.:(

Personality changes and making the practioner a better person is the True way the Old Masters taught...and is why they didnt give out some of their most powerful teaching, formula's and training to any student they didnt have at least a 5-10 year relationship with.

Self control, serenity, and treating every human being with dignity and respect is part of the true essence of the Martial Arts.

Hopefully you at least ponder this post and do some self inventory,

I wish you the best

JDK

[JDK]

My posts are far from seething or angry, I am not angry with you not in the slightest:) and certainly not hostile to you as a person

It is simply that you chose answer a question on iron shirt practice with a very length y cut and paste from another person writing, I think it woudl have had more value if you had condensed it, to your own words and had passed on you own experience of iron shirt chi gong.

With regard to a persons faith or beleif Gwok Si Gwok Faat Each to thier own, it is simply that at every opportunity you try very hard to interest us with your Christain point of view.

As a buddhist, I do not at every post and shout it to the world and say hey look at what thsi is...even if I believe it to be wonderfull and life enhancing, if I want to know about being a born again Christian I will certainly ask you for your knowledge and advice, however I would not like to have to read constant posting that forces it front of my face. Maybe that is why I object to your posts. I understand that you are passionate and feel you have found the chosen path and want others to have the opportunity but why not simply let us decide if we want your opinion on where religion fits in with Chinese martial arts ;)

Temper your sword and wield it gently

I suppose I misintepreted your response.
Please forgive me for jumping to conclusions. I guess I am a little gun shy..because very few replies to my post are not filled with insults, anger and disrespect.

The only reason I post belief in Jesus Christ..is because you cannot divorce True Internal Martial Arts from religions that are diametrically opposed to Christianity.

I will in the future true and show more respect for ALL beliefs on this website.

Peace

JDK

[Lamassu]

Hi All,
On qigung I wrote the following


'...you must push your qi to the back using both mind and muscle. The teacher strikes this area to make sure that the student does it correctly and to build the pressure of the qi. The actual posture aids the student in sending the qi to the correct location. You can discern this for yourself by mimicking the posture shown here with fully inflated lungs. With your mouth closed try to push air out of your kidney's. When done correctly you will feel an inflating sensation there.'

From this article

http://plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/Luan.htm#Master%20Luan

Kevin

This is interesting, it reminds me of San Njie as it was instructed to me at my kwoon (back in Texas). You're pretty much in a deep seated horse stance, both straightforward and also at a 45 degree angle, during the form. Throughout the form your taking 6-3-6 breaths and channeling the chi to your dan tien. While we practice the form our Sifu would "test" our posture by pushing, pulling and/or applying pressure. Anyway, when first learning San Njie I would feel drained and tired because I would exert too much external force to do the form, but with practice and focus on the dan tien, I would feel a warm sensation accumulate, and eventually push the chi back and forth my dan tien to my ming min and this would build up my chi some more. Now when I perform San Njie, I feel vitalized and full of energy. Yay qigong!!!! :D

[Wong Ying Home]

No worries,

You make an interesting point in that True internal martial arts cannot be seperated from Diametrically opposed religeous beleifs from Christianity.

How do you arrive at this conclusion

What are True Internal Martial arts

[Shaolinlueb]

jdk

i saw hitler in your post, wasnt he a christian?

SL

[Crushing Fist]

jdk

i saw hitler in your post, wasnt he a christian?

SL


Gott Mit Uns?

[Shaolinlueb]

Gott Mit Uns?

lol

ich weiss nicht!

[lunghushan]

I think something needs to be done with JDK. Like we hold a yin-yang symbol to his skin and see if it burns or something.

LOL

[Baqualin]

I think something needs to be done with JDK. Like we hold a yin-yang symbol to his skin and see if it burns or something.

LOL

I can't believe it but I'm going to agree with Lung.....you've actually brought a smile to my face:D

Dale Dugas has the most knowledge so far on this thread...don't know him personally, but know of his association with Dr. Painter....enough said.:cool:
BQ

[QuaiJohnCain]

Real Iron Body: http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/hammerdem.mpg

...and being a student of this man, I will go so far as to say I have not seen much in this thread by way of accurate information. I find this kind of strange, since this very website has an article about the subject, and a video for sale as well....










JDK - You said yourself that IMA cannot be divorced from certain "religious" (lol) tenets that are "opposed" to Christianity. According to your own beliefs, practicing any shape or part of an asian martial art, you are opposing the bible. Yet you still want to practice and associate with Asian martial arts, AND be faithful to your particular interpretation of the bible. This is a contradiction that cannot be resolved. It disqualifies your opinions regarding IMA- you can't possibly know anything about what you don't practice, or are afraid of practicing, for whatever reasons... If you have a shred of real patience, and tolerance, for views that are alternative to your own, I strongly suggest that you watch the following film on the origins of modern religion: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6410112404402873027
Really, watch the whole thing. I took the time to read the article you posted...

[Lamassu]

Man that video was crazy!!! :eek: Okay, that's Iron Shirt. No arguing here.

[Dale Dugas]

Real Iron Body: http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/hammerdem.mpg

...and being a student of this man, I will go so far as to say I have not seen much in this thread by way of accurate information. I find this kind of strange, since this very website has an article about the subject, and a video for sale as well....


Shifu Patterson has a high hand. Great to see his vid again. Serious conditioning through serious training.

Thank you,

Dale Dugas

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=QuaiJohnCain;734197]Real Iron Body: http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/hammerdem.mpg

...and being a student of this man, I will go so far as to say I have not seen much in this thread by way of accurate information. I find this kind of strange, since this very website has an article about the subject, and a video for sale as well....


I have to agree....it did get trolled very quickly though.
Much respect for Sifu Patterson, I have some of his training tapes.

The most accurate information I can give is yes it works & yes it can hurt you...... do not try and learn this out of a book or video...find a real teacher with the proper methods & herbs to keep you from getting arthur at an early age.
Iron Shirt / Iron Bone is a wonderful thing if done properly.:)

[lunghushan]

I don't know anything about Sifu Patterson's training methods.

But I have to say that just given basic physics, that demo of using a big heavy object like a sledgehammer on somebody who is standing is complete and utter B.S.

Because the speed of the motion of the sledge is negligible. The impact that gets transferred by a sledge isn't from the speed, it's from the mass. So the impact of an object on the ground, for example, from the sledge gets transferred to the object or through the object.

But for something that's able to be freely pushed, there isn't any impact transferred because the mass of the thing that's being pushed (in this case, Sifu Patterson) gets pushed backwards, no big deal.

To prove it to myself, I had a friend do it to me, hit me with a sledge like this demo while I was standing. No big deal -- nothing.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Lunghushan-

Clearly, you failed physics in high school, big time. :(

Put your "test" on video. :rolleyes:

Better yet, let me swing the sledge. :D




you nooBs sure are transparent......

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan-

Clearly, you failed physics in high school, big time. :(

Put your "test" on video. :rolleyes:

Better yet, let me swing the sledge. :D




you nooBs sure are transparent......

Noobs ... LOL

A friend and I were doing a lot of splitting of wood, and we were taking MA at the time, so we tried it out.

We also did a lot of experimentation with breaking boards. If you don't succeed in breaking the board, the impact goes back into your hand or foot, not the board.

These so-called 'demonstrations' are just basic physics. Like when they put a fat guy on the floor and break concrete blocks on top of him. The impact of the sledge goes into breaking the concrete block and the fat absorbs the rest of the impact.

It would be far more impressive to take a skinny guy on the ground and use the sledge on his skull. I wonder why they don't do that one? Perhaps because his head would be crushed.

Oh, and BTW, QuaiJohnCain, the reason I put 'Noobs' LOL is because we did that experimentation back in 1985-1987, about 20 years ago .... an older contractor friend of my grandfather's used to love saying 'here, hit me in the stomach' ... so we experimented with it.

Honestly you can probably do this demo with the sledge yourself unless you never do any ab exercises. If you wanted to try it, have your friend swing it lightly at first while you're tensing your abs and see what happens, and then have him do it harder.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Lunghushan-

Your arbitrary, unverifiable contributions are inadmissible here. You are resorting to out-and-out lying in an attempt to make your fallacious arguement sound legitimate.


But for something that's able to be freely pushed, there isn't any impact transferred because the mass of the thing that's being pushed (in this case, Sifu Patterson) gets pushed backwards, no big deal.

Hmm, like a free hanging, free swinging heavy bag? It is quite easy to put a HOLE into the bag with a sledge.... That is several times more force than any human can put into the bag with just a fist, plus the bag is even less resistant to the incoming force than a human standing on his own two feet. So much for your lies.

There are tons of fake demos that show concrete blocks being smashed by hammers over people's heads, chests, etc. Bending spears into throats, etc. All the people who do these demos copycat each other. Where are Patterson's copycats, hmm? You might do well to remember what killed Houdini... Since it is clear you are not willing or able to debunk his demonstration empirically, this is where you should just be quiet instead of embarassing yourself any further.

[Lamassu]

I don't think the sledgehammer video is a mere "gimmick" either. The guy with the hammer was swinging kinda hard, at least the same amount of force equal to excecuting a punch or kick aimed at incapacitating someone. Besides, physics aside for the moment, what about internal organs? Regardless of whether he was standing up or lying down the sledgehammer could quite easily rupture the stomach, spleen, liver... any and all organs in that region are at risk. The only thing protecting his organs is the density of his muscle mass, which must be hard and strong and is precisely the desired goal of practicing Iron Shirt qigong. Just because YOU can't do something doesn't mean it can't be done.

[Shaolinlueb]

if some guy swung a sledgehammer like that at my stomach, not only would i throw up, i would probably hurt myself a lot. i saw iron body with shi goulin doing it and apunch of guys ramming a log at his stomach. i am much more impressed with the sledgehammer because 1 its smaller its not as spread out, and 2, thats just f##king crazy

[lunghushan]

It's a circus stunt. Some guy did a book where he debunked all these sort of circus stunts.

You don't build up enough speed with a sledge or a log because it's heavy. The people pushing it don't get it going fast enough.

You'd get a baseball bat going a LOT faster. Anyways ... there's a standing million dollar challenge. Why don't you go win it if you think you can?

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

[Lamassu]

I still don't think it's a trick, I saw the video again just now, and the sledgehammer isn't real big; not much bigger than a baseball bat, and the swinger was even choking the handle to have better control and swing it faster. The burden of proof lies with you, and this "book" you read. Who wrote the book, what's its title? What credentials does the author have? Did he try all these circus tricks himself? Did he have someone specifically swing a sledge hammer to his stomach like that demonstrated in the video? If all I have to go on is your word versus my own eyes, then I'll go with my own eyes until you can put some actual value to your claims of chicanery. As for the million dollar claim you mentioned, yes I'm familiar with it, and this instance wouldn't qualify anyway, because it can be explained by science (density in muscle tissue and so on). This million dollar challenge is for supernatural pseudoscience and whatnot, like ghosts and stuff.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Lunghushan - have it done to you on video or STFU.

As Lamassu said, the burden of proof lies on you. Denying this only gleans your perverted and ill-informed rationale.

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan - have it done to you on video or STFU.

As Lamassu said, the burden of proof lies on you. Denying this only gleans your perverted and ill-informed rationale.

LOL Honestly I'm too lazy to even bother since I have 'no doubt' (sorry ... inside joke ... Gwen Stefani was just on T.V.) that you can accomplish this with basic ab muscles, having experimented before with it in my teens. As are you too lazy, or you would have tried it by now.

BTW HERE is a little article about a UNIVERSITY PHYSICS PROFESSOR who does the same thing I was talking about with the concrete blocks ... he uses breaking to demonstrate PHYSICS.

http://www.ps.uci.edu/physics/news4/rosendahl.html

Bottom line it's obvious who here failed physics, and I think you're pointing fingers in the wrong direction.

[Lamassu]

I read your article, unfortunately, it doesn't explain the physics behind such demonstrations. It's merely a news article mentioning how professors use demonstrations to catch their students attention. But this is beside the point, I can see how the force of the sledge hammer can be dispersed first through the concrete block and then the bed of nails the prof. is sanwiched in, but that's not what was demonstrated by the iron shirt video. Look at the video again, a sledgehammer is being swung directly into a man's chest! Are you telling us that sledgehammers don't hurt? That we can all buy sledgehammers run into the streets and start beating each other and no one will get hospitalized?! Now there's, a claim you should take to your precious million dollar challenge! Something, YOU need to realize is that in the iron shirt video, the guy isn't sanwiched between two beds of nails which act as a vehicle to disperse the wave energy of the force from the sledgehammer. Let's see this professor do this "circus trick" without the bed of nails and get up and start his lecture. Go back to school and retake your physics classes.

[QuaiJohnCain]

LOL Honestly I'm too lazy to even bother since I have 'no doubt' (sorry ... inside joke ... Gwen Stefani was just on T.V.) that you can accomplish this with basic ab muscles, having experimented before with it in my teens.
You fail to provide the evidence to prove your hypothesis. You cannot make your point based on the fallacies you have presented to us. You clearly do not understand logic, reasoning, scientific process, and thier relationship to debate. You cop out from providing the evidence, citing your own laziness, yet have no problem finding the time and energy to continue posting your ignorance.


As are you too lazy, or you would have tried it by now.
This comment reflects, one, that you have poor reading comprehension - I train with the man in the video I posted, and I mentioned that.... Two, your failure to comprehend logical process - you made statements that put the burden of proof on yourself, yet fail to provide the evidence, but demand that your point be taken as fact. That is called sophistry- a type of failure to comprehend logic. Three, in light of my first point in this paragraph, it is your own laziness that is bringing this argument to an impass. Pot-Kettle-Black, Mr. Hypocrite!

[lunghushan]

two beds of nails which act as a vehicle to disperse the wave energy of the force from the sledgehammer. Let's see this professor do this "circus trick" without the bed of nails and get up and start his lecture. Go back to school and retake your physics classes.

Actually, the reason he doesn't explain it is it's supposed to be understood by the physics students according to physics principles.

I give up on you guys.

Here's a little article.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9911/willey.html

Here's another one:

http://www.csicop.org/genx/firewalk/ (Fire walking).

This is the guy that set the world record for the longest fire walk.

http://www.pitt.edu/~dwilley/Fire/FireTxt/record.html

[Lamassu]

Of course, give up. You haven't disproved anything. What's proven though, is that Iron Shirt qigong is very real, and the Iron Shirt video is not a fake. Thank you for conceding. :)

[lunghushan]

I will concede that you're about as savvy at physics as the people in that movie Idiocracy. "because it has electrolytes." LOL (Okay, that was chemistry, but you don't seem to know anything more about physics than they do about chemistry).

[Lamassu]

*sigh* :rolleyes:


I can see how the force of the sledge hammer can be dispersed first through the concrete block and then the bed of nails the prof. is sanwiched in, but that's not what was demonstrated by the iron shirt video. Look at the video again, a sledgehammer is being swung directly into a man's chest! Are you telling us that sledgehammers don't hurt? That we can all buy sledgehammers run into the streets and start beating each other and no one will get hospitalized?! Now there's, a claim you should take to your precious million dollar challenge!

you haven't seen the video have you? That much MUST be true, because you're avoiding all my points and merely regurgitating a physics demonstration that isn't like the iron shirt video. How many times do I have to say it? There are NO bed of nails in the demonstration to disperse the kinetic energy. I'm really getting tired of debating this with you when you completely go off kilter and bring up a completely different demonstration.

Okay, riddle me this Batman: What acts as a force of cushioning in the iron shirt video, to disperse the kinetic energy applied from the sledge hammer? Yes, I know you'll have to actually watch the video in order to answer this one, but go ahead, don't be afraid.

[lunghushan]

*sigh* :rolleyes:



you haven't seen the video have you? That much MUST be true, because you're avoiding all my points and merely regurgitating a physics demonstration that isn't like the iron shirt video. How many times do I have to say it? There are NO bed of nails in the demonstration to disperse the kinetic energy. I'm really getting tired of debating this with you when you completely go off kilter and bring up a completely different demonstration.

Okay, riddle me this Batman: What acts as a force of cushioning in the iron shirt video, to disperse the kinetic energy applied from the sledge hammer? Yes, I know you'll have to actually watch the video in order to answer this one, but go ahead, don't be afraid.

The bed of nails is added to make the effect look better. It doesn't disperse the kinetic energy. The kinetic energy is absorbed through breaking the block.

In the iron shirt video, nothing disperses the kinetic energy. The kinetic energy is transferred into moving Shifu Patterson's body BACKWARDS. His mass is much greater than the sledge, so he doesn't have to move as far as it did.

You really need to go back and take physics again. These are like questions from high school physics.

[Lamassu]

So, what you're saying is sledgehammers can't damage the human body. Yeah sure swing a sledgehammer at somebody, and it may knock them back a little, but they don't have to worry about internal bleeding or fractured ribs. And anybody can do this, whether they study martial arts including iron shirt training for several years or if they're some soft flabby professor who hasn't done a single push up since high school. The "fact" that you claim physics prove, is that the human body can disperse kinetic energy from any otherwise damaging force. Talk about movie idiocracy. :rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

So, what you're saying is sledgehammers can't damage the human body. Yeah sure swing a sledgehammer at somebody, and it may knock them back a little, but they don't have to worry about internal bleeding or fractured ribs. And anybody can do this, whether they study martial arts including iron shirt training for several years or if they're some soft flabby professor who hasn't done a single push up since high school. The "fact" that you claim physics prove, is that the human body can disperse kinetic energy from any otherwise damaging force. Talk about movie idiocracy. :rolleyes:

No, I'm not saying that they don't damage the body. If you hit a hard surface with a sledge there's going to be a different result than if you hit muscles. Like if you hit somebody in the head, obviously there's going to be more damage than their stomach.

If you hit the stomach, if somebody is really flabby, a lot of the displacement from the impact is going into their fat. If they aren't really flabby but don't have any muscle strength, the impact is going into their body cavity, which could cause more damage.

There's going to be a different result if it is a horizontal impact like this where the body can move compared to a vertical impact or if the body is on a surface that's not going to give as easily.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Here is part of an article written by Patterson on the subject.....

I remember a time when upon leaving a demonstration at a Chinese Military base, a belligerent M.P. questioned validity of what we had demonstrated. He specifically taunted Master Hsu about the "Iron Body" demonstrations, saying that he did not believe that it was possible and casting aspersions or Chinese Kung Fu in general. Master Hsu dearly loved his Art and he could see the bully mentality in the M.P., so he casually invited the M.P. to strike the Black Belt of his choice as many times as he desired to quell his doubts. The M.P. chose Ah Huan, the smallest of us all (105 lbs.) My teacher, always the showman, did his best to egg the bully on, saying things like "Come on my grandma can hit harder than that." When the bully was sufficiently aroused and literally pounding on Ah Huan's body, Master Hsu gave Ah Huan the "High Sign" meaning to give the man "a lesson." On the next blow, the belligerent M.P. broke his wrist while punching Ah Huan in the stomach. As the M.P. knelt there on the road howling in despair, my teacher sidled up to him and said in a low, calm voice; "Now you believe, eh." Then he turned, as did we, and walked away.


from: http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/mymentor.html

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I watched the video several times. A close as the person with the sledgehammer is to the person being hit, it looks like the handle rather than the hammerhead is hitting the person. It also looks to me like the person is being hit below the ribcage. Thus, not in the chest.
Lunghushan is also correct when he says that the force is dissipated by the person's body moving backwards. Would this still hurt? Of course. Is serious injury still possible? Yes! Is this a circus type of trick? Yes, but that doesn't negate the fact that it takes some training to take that kind of a hit. So, I still find it impressive.
Demonstrations like the one depicted in the video are similar to those performed in China in the 1800s and 1900s by street performers. They are entertaining. However, being hit by a hard object when you are prepared and know its coming is very different from a strike received by "surprise" in a street fight. I think taking and "brushing off" a sucker punch to the body is more of a sign of iron shirt training than taking a prepared strike from a student. JMHO!
Though, if you want to see something really tough make the person taking the hit stand with his back against a block wall. THAT would be no trick and would possibly kill anyone attempting it.

[Baqualin]

I watched the video several times. A close as the person with the sledgehammer is to the person being hit, it looks like the handle rather than the hammerhead is hitting the person. It also looks to me like the person is being hit below the ribcage. Thus, not in the chest.
Lunghushan is also correct when he says that the force is dissipated by the person's body moving backwards. Would this still hurt? Of course. Is serious injury still possible? Yes! Is this a circus type of trick? Yes, but that doesn't negate the fact that it takes some training to take that kind of a hit. So, I still find it impressive.
If you want to see something really tough make the person taking the hit stand with his back against a block wall. THAT would be no trick and would possibly kill anyone attempting it.

I've been doing Iron Bone/Iron Shirt/Iron Palm training for a few years and we do these kinds of Demos at our tourneys......mostly for show....MKusa I agree with your view....Lung your right about the (simple) physics......and yes Sifu Patterson is the real deal......Iron Shirt is also for real and will protect you much better from hard blows than someone who doesn't practice it......but it will not make you super human......like MKusa....have him lay down on the ground and try the same demo.

Once again this is not a cut to Sifu Patterson.....he has much respect from me and you would have to train very long and hard to do that demo.:)

[lunghushan]

I've been doing Iron Bone/Iron Shirt/Iron Palm training for a few years and we do these kinds of Demos at our tourneys......mostly for show....MKusa I agree with your view....Lung your right about the (simple) physics......and yes Sifu Patterson is the real deal......Iron Shirt is also for real and will protect you much better from hard blows than someone who doesn't practice it......but it will not make you super human......like MKusa....have him lay down on the ground and try the same demo.

Once again this is not a cut to Sifu Patterson.....he has much respect from me and you would have to train very long and hard to do that demo.:)

Thanks -- I just don't want people to get the wrong idea and go running off and hurting themselves. Like thinking because their sifu does this horizontally that they could do it vertically or something. There were a lot of people during the Boxer Rebellion who thought they were tough and could stop bullets and stuff, and found out the hard way they couldn't.

Like I said, the person who first showed me incredible abdominal strength was a contractor friend of my grandfather's, who always used to say, "Here, punch me in the stomach." LOL He had abs of steel.

[QuaiJohnCain]

.....just thought I'd cross-post a comment made by Patterson himself on the subject in question, particularly in context to lunghushan's dismissals. For context, "Vince" is the guy swinging the hammer in the clip.

Vince had to control the hammer to land it accurately. The rest is physics. Given that Vince weighed approximately 240 lbs. at the time of the video and we can estimate the distance the hammer travels at about eight feet give or take. The hammer is a known quantity at 8 lbs. and we know that the shaft of the hammer is four feet long. Physics majors anyone? (Patterson is, so am I...)

Even if we assume that Vince's given momentum and acceleration imparted to the hammer is a constant, (which clearly it is not as you can see him snap his waist into the blow) and the fact that the full brunt of both the momentum and the kinetic potential are transferred into and through my body since my body's mass is much higher than that of the hammer (allowing for of course my body's ability to somewhat diminish said potential, leaf), it still results in an impact that is more than substantial any way you care to slice it. Even with conservative estimates a "conditioned abdomen" cannot endure it. And remember, you can see him shank the third into my solar plexus. Try that with a "conditioned abdomen".

[Jas]

Guys do anyone happen to posses a book in "China Mordern Chi Kung" printed isbn 7-5009-0994-2/G.951, the book was written in Simplify Chinese Character. If any of you posses of this book and understand Chinese... all your argument will be settle. Inside this great book.. there are more than a few hundred kind of Chinese Chi Kung practise from ancient time to present time.. some from health, Spiritua to Martial Art Chi Kung. Inside this book, there are 3 types of Hard Qi Kong, 1) Golden Bell 2)Iron Shirt 3)Golden Bell & Iron Shirt. The 3rd class are rarely hear off.. but it was a myth that this stlye was created by Wudang Zhan San Feng. This stlye does not require bashing or medication to support the training. It is purely done on breathing style. It is said with every breathing excercise you make, it will help you develope your skin and bones. And it is the fastest way to achieve "Hard Chi Kung" and helps to improve health and avoid sickness. According to the book Shaolin Chi Kung Golden Bell is the safest way to practise.. but you master a few basic, intermediate and advance chi Kung. Advance chi kung such as Micro Cosmic, once master you could proceed to Macro Cosmic and train the Golden Bell. Some of you have it right.. you need to apply bashing your body plus chi exercise and medication.. to attaint the hardness state.. this are done part by body part. Well currently I am on my way for the Macro Cosmic training, and now I am deciding which Hard Chi Kung training I will take, most probably the Golden Bell & Iron Shirt. Any Chi Kung training will be very benificial if you have Micro Cosmic & Macro Cosmic as foundation. It will prevent internal injury to your various organ.:)

[wutangforever]

I know this thread is old, but I just wanted to comment that we can train in Iron Shirt at the Chicago Shaolin Temple if we so choose. I've found it very interesting, as we use Ba Duan Jin and Yi Jin Jing to work on focusing our chi to particular spots, and then work at taking blows from fists, knees, sticks and even baseball bats. We also just built a handing beam that they will swing at us.

Its pretty remarkable. Whether or not its good for long term, I don't know, but I don't plan on doing it daily for years... I just want to learn it and get a little better at taking blows. In fact, I only started learning Kung Fu 4 months ago and I can already take fairly hard hits and will soon be breaking big sticks over my stomach or back.

All I can say is don't really knock it until you try it. Sometimes it hurts (i.e. when me and a few students used 2x4s to hit each other), but when you are having a good night and your energy is right, it doesn't hurt even for powerful hits. We also lay on the ground with boards across our stomachs and have other students stand on them, usually like 300 - 400 lbs.

I'd be happy to talk more about my experiences so feel free to ask.

Ben

[Lamassu]

I've taken some iron shirt and iron palm training when I was going to the Shaolin Do kwoon in San Marcos. We would condition our chest and abs with a makiwari board and toughen our forearms and shins by rolling a 30 l.b. iron bar over them. I haven't done that training though in years. I definetely have to check out the Chicago Shaolin Temple sometime. :)

[TaichiMantis]

I know this thread is old, but I just wanted to comment that we can train in Iron Shirt at the Chicago Shaolin Temple if we so choose. I've found it very interesting, as we use Ba Duan Jin and Yi Jin Jing to work on focusing our chi to particular spots, and then work at taking blows from fists, knees, sticks and even baseball bats. We also just built a handing beam that they will swing at us.

Its pretty remarkable. Whether or not its good for long term, I don't know, but I don't plan on doing it daily for years... I just want to learn it and get a little better at taking blows. In fact, I only started learning Kung Fu 4 months ago and I can already take fairly hard hits and will soon be breaking big sticks over my stomach or back.

All I can say is don't really knock it until you try it. Sometimes it hurts (i.e. when me and a few students used 2x4s to hit each other), but when you are having a good night and your energy is right, it doesn't hurt even for powerful hits. We also lay on the ground with boards across our stomachs and have other students stand on them, usually like 300 - 400 lbs.

I'd be happy to talk more about my experiences so feel free to ask.

Ben

If you are from Chicago you must have seen Grandmaster John Tsai or his son Kenny do his sledgehammer, bricks, on a rusty nailbed thing at the the summer Chinatown festivals....;). I think my sifu even did it one year.

[wutangforever]

I just moved back to Chicago this June and didn't happen to catch those demonstrations. Let me know if they do it again!

Thanks,

Ben