Christian Martial Arts Union

[JDK]

http://www.gmau.org/constitution.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ff4christ/System.html


Havnt done enough research on this...but at least this is a start.

I have to believe there are others like me who love the TMA's...but do not want to open any doorways for the enemy to get a foothold in our lives.

Can Anyone out there identify with me?

JDK

[JDK]

http://tcftalk.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?board=WAR&action=display&num=1108647031[

Here is a Link to a website I created for my Church.
It has alot of different Topics...but the link I provided deals with our disussions

JDK

[JDK]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44210&page=2



JD

[MasterKiller]

sheesh :rolleyes:

[jon]

I have to believe there are others like me who love the TMA's...but do not want to open any doorways for the enemy to get a foothold in our lives.

Reverse punch - KIAAAAAAAAAA!
Demons be gone!
It is the only logical solution.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm an atheist, but I went to a church function a Christian friend of mine attended, which had a program called Karate for Christ. It was too hilarious to pass up. So I went. They actually did TKD. Anyways, when my sparring turn was up, I hit this dude on his right cheek. He just turned the other one, and I knocked him the **** out.

Funny.

[MasterKiller]

Because we all know Satan is hiding around the corner of every strip-mall dojo, just waiting for the teacher to mention qi so he can steal you kid's soul.

I'll be glad when Bush is out of office so the Fundies will slide back into the fringe.

[Mr Punch]

Can Anyone out there identify with me?

JDK
Unfortunately, countless mouth-breathers.

You make me puke, and it's projectile green vomit. Is someone trying to tell me something?
:confused:

[kal]

..but do not want to open any doorways for the enemy to get a foothold in our lives.





Exactly what enemy is that? And how is that enemy going to get a foothold in your life by practicing martial arts? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Mr Punch]

I think it's that guy in Napoleon Dynamite with the star-spangled trews. If you don't practice martial arts he can't get a foothold in your life.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I believe this "foothold on your life" of which Mr. JKD is speaking is actually a reference to an occultic Brazilian JiuJitsu technique practiced regularly by demons.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I beleive it is possible to steal a persons chi.

This is one of the main reasons I stopped practicing the spiritual parts of the Chinese Southern Styles....it is too connected to deity worship . I am a christian and DO believe in demon spirits, I believe they can masquarade as just about anything once you enter the spirit realm...so mu strong advice is to not get involved at all with these things we know little about.

One of my Instructors advised me a long time ago NOT to allow anyone to know the exact time of day I meditated or or pacticed meditative Chi-Kung.

Sometimes a person may secretly not like you, be jealous of your Martial ability...or just a thief.

Psychic Vampire
A psychic vampire is a person who connects with your chi (pronounced chee) or life force energy and takes it for his/her own purposes. This person may touch you even casually or just come close to you. You feel drained.


This is why I never tell anyone where and when I'm going to masturbate. Those **** psychic vampires might touch me casually or come (that's just sick, JDK) too close to me.......

It must happen to me all the time. I always feel drained after a good wanking.

I have a question....if a male psychic vampire messes with my chi while I'm wanking, does that make me gay?

[David Jamieson]

sorry, but christianity and martial arts don't mix well. One will corrupt the other.

But alone, they are ok.

it's kind of like mixing the wrong foods together. the results are almost always not tasteful and not ready for consumption.

the idea of martial arts being martial and developing yourself on those levels to be able to not only defend yourself but to kill of need be are completely contrary to the christian pinciples, ethic and morality.

so, a good christian doesn't let themselves be pulled by such visceral activities as fighting and the enjoyment of fighting and thinking about ways you could hurt someone more effectively and so on.

If ytou take that stuff out of martial arts, it's not martial, if you put it into christianity, it isn't christianity.

pretty simple, but i guess people love to interpret so they can have thei cake and eat it too.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I disagree. I think they blend perfectly, if you cast aside the meaning of martial arts. When I was in high school, the Power Team came to my school. It was basically 4 or 5 steroid junkies running around to these different stations on the basketball court. They'd break a stack of bricks and shout something like "This is the power of Christ!" Then they'd run over and bend a steel pole: "This is what Jesus could do!" Then they'd lay down on a bed of nails (ironic) and get pounded by a sledgehammer, which would break the bricks on their stomach.

Then again, those are the kinds of people real martial artists tend to loathe, and for good reason. Kind of like the "spirit" boxers of the Cultural Revolution.

It made me realize something, though.

If Jesus had been an iron palm master, that whole crucifixion thing might have turned out differently.

[David Jamieson]

you disagree because you are choosing to interpret what is said in the gosp[els.

ah, if only so called christians would take the time to actually ready the new testament, man would that ever make a difference.

here's how it is.

the tenets of christianity do not support the practice and sustinance of a martial arts approach to life.

In fact, the belief of christianity is contrary to everything that is truly in the path of martial discovery.

you can be a good person and practice martial arts, but when you think of bringing pain to anyone, you are being unchristian in a big way. when you cause harm to another, especially your enemies, you go against the words of jesus christ.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. They simply corrupt each other until you have some nonsensical interpretive soup where people desperately try to justify their behaviours so they can stay in one community but do things that are contrary to the beliefs of that community.

It's analogous to putting a paedophile into a daycare job.

I can't think and train towards breaking your arm and practice that and call myyself a christian plain and simple.
As a Christian, I am to love everyone, my enemies even more an dto not bring harm to them through my own volition and in fact, to not even think about bringing harm.

It doesn't have to come out your mouth in christian terms.

for instance, in christian terms, if you think of defiling another mans wife, then you ahve already sinned in th eyes of god and jesus. the same applies with any of the other sins. If you think about hurting someone, you've already sinned.

they are not compatible. Unless and I reiterate, you liberally interpret the gospels to fit the corrupted union of martuial artistry and christian belief.

[JDK]

I disagree. I think they blend perfectly, if you cast aside the meaning of martial arts. When I was in high school, the Power Team came to my school. It was basically 4 or 5 steroid junkies running around to these different stations on the basketball court. They'd break a stack of bricks and shout something like "This is the power of Christ!" Then they'd run over and bend a steel pole: "This is what Jesus could do!" Then they'd lay down on a bed of nails (ironic) and get pounded by a sledgehammer, which would break the bricks on their stomach.

I am sorry you had to witness such nonsense , using the name of Christ to promote it. I know they had good intentions...but it was misdirected and bad for the name of Christ.:(

I agree with you Wookie......THAT was not Martial Arts nor Christianity.



If Jesus had been an iron palm master, that whole crucifixion thing might have turned out differently.

Jesus commanded the wind and Seas to be still....and they obeyed.
He opend blind eyes, unstopped deaf ears..made the Lame to walk, healed the Leper and rose people from the Dead.( like Lazuras)

Then in the First Century his disciples did the [u]same things and were recorded by spies from Ceasar and various writers and Scribes....many who were not believers.

He Also rose from the dead for all to see.

I'll take that over an Iron Palm Master any day~:D

God bless

JDK

[David Jamieson]

so how would martial arts demonstrations be different?

what would you demonstrate that aligns christianity with martial arts? and, how would it demonstrate that?

[JDK]

No BS.....I cannot answer that question.

I am conflicted because of my love of the Arts since my teenage years...and my faith in Jesus.

I am hoping to find a way to practice...without involving the spiritual aspects that so many of the Traditional Arts bring with them.

I am trying to work it out ....hoping that posting here would give me some ideas.

JDK

[Samurai Jack]

You are conflicted because satan has already cast doubts into your heart. You yourself identified the occult influences in the martial arts. What more proof do you need that the practice is evil?

The truth is, that if you want to be a follower of Christ, you must follow his teachings:

"Carry neither purse, nor script, nor shoes, and salute no man by the way."
Luke 10:4

In other words, live in poverty. Wear no shoes, carry no bible, and vow allegience to no man. Why don't you do that?

[David Jamieson]

Just read the gospels. You'll find the answers to your conundrum right there.

You cannot practice harming others, to harm others, with the intention required to bring harm to others, especially your enemies and still claim to be christian and to say you have "faith" in jesus and still make with these practices is contrary.

They are not compatible belief systems. It has nothing to do with the occult part, it has to do with learning to harm others physically which in the christian sense is not OK at all, especially your enemies who you should love even more and sek to bring no harm to.

I don't know what the conflict is, just put down that thing that brings conflict, or pick it up and leave the other. You can't have both, it is very simple.

[cjurakpt]

God-people are funny; but not so funny that if they all dissapeared tommorrow I'd miss them...

IMO, the ostritch should be the international symbol for religion, seeing as sticking your head in the sand with your a$$ in the air is about the functional equivalent of worshiping "God"

now, I'm sure some will take offense at this - but what I don't understand is, if you believe that you are under the care of the one true God (whichever one that may be :rolleyes: ), then why would you care at all what I say? if I blaspheme your "God", who you believe to be the all-powerful grand high muckaty-muck, why should he/she/it or you care a whit about little nothing me? I mean, aren't I going to be the one who pays for it in the long run?

BTW, I do believe very strongly in the rights of anyone to believe and practice anything they want, without being persecuted or discrimanated against in any material way; this does not preclude the rights of others to publically say that any particular belief is wrong or silly - just as long as it doesn't impede the right of practice: so in other words, if you want to stand out on the street and proclaim that I should repent and find redemption in Jesus and that only by believing in him will I be saved, then I should have the right to preach atheism and point out the inherent silliness of God-belief with the same tolerance shown to me as is being shown to you...

[Shaolin Wookie]

you disagree because you are choosing to interpret what is said in the gosp[els.

ah, if only so called christians would take the time to actually ready the new testament, man would that ever make a difference.

here's how it is.

the tenets of christianity do not support the practice and sustinance of a martial arts approach to life.

In fact, the belief of christianity is contrary to everything that is truly in the path of martial discovery.

you can be a good person and practice martial arts, but when you think of bringing pain to anyone, you are being unchristian in a big way. when you cause harm to another, especially your enemies, you go against the words of jesus christ.

Good point, but missed mine by a mile.

What I mean to say is this: The reason I left that religion is it didn't make any sense in any kind of way--intellectual, historically, philosophically, ontologically, empirically, epistemologically (we're all born atheists, anyway). It had an ultra-violent history, yet still claims that it's pacifistic. If you give me both Mother Theresa and the Inquisition....I'm going to think twice. Mother Theresa was kind, for sure, and she touched so many lives. But the Inquisition lasted two or three centuries, stomped on scientific progress, and touched/ended so many lives........so many more lives than Mother Theresa.

Religion does more harm than good, in most cases. And it takes credit for the kindness espoused by Western European societies. Ironically. That's all due to Democracy, not Christianity......and no, our founding fathers weren't "good christian" folk. They were deists, and often treated standardized religion to extreme abuse a la the Enlightenment. If you don't believe me, study Thomas Jefferson's views on religion.....a la his letters. If you still don't believe me, read some Thomas Paine. But I digress........relgion, especially Christianity, has a very long history of violence. Only in the past 100 years have they calmed down, mostly b/c our Democracies won't tolerate their fanaticism. Hence, Democracy has made religion kinder....in practice if not in their views.

But as we've seen of late, even Democracies can get hijacked for terrible odds and ends......IRAQ.......

Difference is, I'd never say that Democracy was foolproof and pacific. I'd only say it is better than the alternatives.

But yeah....even Shaolin had a different view of pacifism than Christians. Christians can't generate violence or think of it without sinning. To a Shaolin, if he stops you from hurting him or someone else, he's stopping the violence before it has a chance to manifest, thereby negating it. I'd say that's why it was valid for the former, but inaccessible to Christians--in theory.

But that whole walking on water thing still has me stumped. If God made the earth and the seas, why would he think that walking on water would be soooooo impressive?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Who knows, though?

Jesus might have been a bad muthatrucka! One of his disciples drew his sword and cut off the High Priest's servant's right ear when the legion came to arrest him at the garden.

Jesus was like: "Stand back, dude. I got this."

[kal]

Just read the gospels. You'll find the answers to your conundrum right there.

You cannot practice harming others, to harm others, with the intention required to bring harm to others, especially your enemies and still claim to be christian and to say you have "faith" in jesus and still make with these practices is contrary.

.

Hold on, don't Christian countries like Italy have an army? How do they train their military without losing their Christianity?

And what about the Swiss Gurad who protect the Vatican? How do they do their training?

And doesn't the Pope have bodyguards or people who protect him? Or does he go out in public unguarded? How do his protectors train to protect him while still being Christians?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Shaolin Wookie]

so in other words, if you want to stand out on the street and proclaim that I should repent and find redemption in Jesus and that only by believing in him will I be saved, then I should have the right to preach atheism and point out the inherent silliness of God-belief with the same tolerance shown to me as is being shown to you...


You do have that right, but wouldn't you feel silly?

Most atheists I've ever met were extremely kind and gentle. The more vocal ones were rather unlikable....and I often thought that they expressed themselves in very shallow terms, and treated people rather rudely (like evangelical Christians do--that is, as possible-Christians/possible customers......very utilitarian).

Ce la vie.

Atheism is a personal choice. Religion is often a group one--if only simply because you're joining a group, sect, or heavenly contingent. You're joining God's gang....


But remember. You had to be taught Christianity in order to believe. You're going to die the way you came into the world--by chance. And yet, we're all atheists by birth......hmmmmm:cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

And doesn't the Pope have bodyguards or people who protect him? Or does he go out in public unguarded? How do his protectors train to protect him while still being Christians?


The pope rides around in the popemobile--a little golf cart with a bulletproof cage.

Funny, Christians believe in divine intervention, but Popes ride around in bulletproof golf-carts b/c they know a bullet moves really quick, and Jesus might be napping.

So much for the peace that passes all understanding.....

[David Jamieson]

Hold on, don't Christian countries like Italy have an army? How do they train their military without losing their Christianity?

And what about the Swiss Gurad who protect the Vatican? How do they do their training?

And doesn't the Pope have bodyguards or people who protect him? Or does he go out in public unguarded? How do his protectors train to protect him while still being Christians?

:confused: :confused: :confused:


You are beginning to understand how people corrupt the message of christianity.
They corrupt it through their desire.

Countries have armies to make war. They have them because they are fearful or because they use them to take what they want.

I will reiterate, these things are corruptions brought about by convenience of interpretation.

If you take the gospel for it's teachings, then you will know that the christian spirituality is not a part of the affairs of the world.


render unto caesar what is caesars, IE: pay your taxes and kowtow to the man because he will bring you harm if you do not. Caesar and his machinations are unchristian and to be preoccupied with those things is unchristian.

ergo, anyone who trains an army cannot call themself christian even if they do call themself christian they are not and are heaping a lie upon another lie.

a spade is a spade like a rose is a rose. you cannot do harm and call yourself good, it is simple. You cannot cloak yourself in riches and call yoruself observant of christ, it is contrary.

most of what is presented is a lie.

if one were truthful, they would be that outwardly and inwardly and not try to tie themselves to one thing or another in order to satisfy their needs to satisfy their desires.

these corruptions are always going to be present so long as their are human beings that desire power. plain and simple. anyway, no, you can't order an army to kill and call yourself a christian, you are not christian if you do this.

If you raise your hand to harm another human, even your enemyu, then you are not christian.

If you defend yourself and avcoid doing harm to another in the doing of that, then you can call yourself a christian.

the golden rule is the golden rule period.

i think it's very clear, I don't understand all the capitulation and lying to oneself.

you either are, or you are not. period.

[cjurakpt]

You do have that right, but wouldn't you feel silly?
absolutely - so you get my point - that is, stnading on the street corner proclaiming anything is, in my perspective, silly - so when I see the Bible thumpers doing their morning rounds, or the militant Islamists doing their thing, I see it as silly as if I were to go door to door pushing non-belief...


Most atheists I've ever met were extremely kind and gentle. The more vocal ones were rather unlikable....and I often thought that they expressed themselves in very shallow terms, and treated people rather rudely (like evangelical Christians do--that is, as possible-Christians/possible customers......very utilitarian).Ce la vie.
I hope that I am kind and gentle - i certainly am not particularly vocal about my (non)-belief (99% of the people I know / interract with regularly do not know this); I certainly am not out to convert any one: you can't reason with emotional choices, and if they choose it within themselves, no need - of course, I would certainly support someone who has made that choice, but that's not a common thing


Atheism is a personal choice. Religion is often a group one--if only simply because you're joining a group, sect, or heavenly contingent. You're joining God's gang....
when life on earth sucks (such as in poverty or war striken areas), it's logical for people to a) bond together; b) look for something beyond the world that justifies their suffering here;


But remember. You had to be taught Christianity in order to believe. You're going to die the way you came into the world--by chance. And yet, we're all atheists by birth......hmmmmm:cool:
in a way, I see atheism as returning to that natural state of "not knowing", of being ok without having any definitive "answers", which then allows you to start acting in the moment, dealing with things such as they are rather than how you think God wants them; as you correctly point out, we are born atheists, and so to return to that is to often unlearn all the doctrine, dogma and associated guilt and realizing that which makes us uniquely human - the ability to see things clearly as they are, to realize that, yes, "this" is all that there is, no man hiding behind the curtain so to speak - this is what I think frightens God-folk: that what you see IS what you get, no special rewards after death, no hidden messages, etc.; also, no justification to act in certain ways - the reality that morality is relative, situational and that it's much harder to decide to act like a decent human being when all the responsibility is up to you to figure out what that means, rather than reading a book some dead guys wrote as a guide to how to live appropriately

[FuXnDajenariht]

the funny thing to me is that most religion doesn't really even give a satisfying explaination for suffering. they say "oh it was just God's will."

really? is that supposed to pacify me, and make me feel better. lol well no offense but wouldn't that make God kind of a douchebag? i'd rather you say that its all left to chance.

[Shaolin Wookie]

To JDK:

This is going to be a hard thing to swallow, but maybe it will be beneficial to you. I don't think every religion is good for everyone. I don't think every activity/passion/hobby is all-encompassing. People are different by make-up, genetics, race, tradition, etc. Relgion ignores these differences, and often tries to change them.....but they're things to be celebrated, not ignored.

What you need to do is keep your religion personal and somewhat contained. Martial Arts are a fantastic way to explore physical coordination, cardiovascular health, mental focus, and other things as well--regardless of religion. But I wouldn't use my martial arts to sell something unrelated to MA....it's like prostitution.....just like you wouldn't use Christianity to sell a used car.

Let's remember....not every MA is a buddhist, taoist, or confucianist.....there's something for everyone to galvanize. MA's are just more compatible with those listed above than with something like Christianity.

But take a lesson from Christ himself: when that Jewish kegger was in full effect, and all the wine was gone by the middle of the party, Christ didn't take the time to interrupt the celebration and preach on the vicissitudes of revelry.....in fact, he got hte party swinging again by giving the folks some more wine.

Christianity does not have to domineer everything in your life, every activity, situation, or every person you come into contact with. It just has to make you a better Christian.

But then again, I'm an atheistic Buddhist/Taoist (which are supposedly mutually incompatable)......so maybe I'm just full of misinformation.

[Shaolin Wookie]

absolutely - so you get my point - that is, stnading on the street corner proclaiming anything is, in my perspective, silly - so when I see the Bible thumpers doing their morning rounds, or the militant Islamists doing their thing, I see it as silly as if I were to go door to door pushing non-belief...

I am very sorry. I completely misread what you had written. It could be read two ways.....and I picked the wrong one.:D

[mattb]

...so mu strong advice is to not get involved at all with these things we know little about.Pretty much why I never got into religion. ;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

I would exercise caution. This type of "Internal Training" is dangerous, directly associated with Eastern Mysticism and ..in my opinion from a christian point of veiw....to be avoided at all costs.
When in the realm of the spirit-world...one needs the protection of Jesus Christ and the power of His Blood , along with The Holy Spirit's Presence.

That's right. Jesus kicks ass. He's an ass-kicking machine. He kicks so much ass, that he actually lasted two rounds against Chuck Norris. No kiddin'.

As for the spirit-world....it's all a sham, my friend.


Unscrupulous Qigong teachers can be dangerous to your wealth, health, intellect and spirit.

Same could be said of Unscrupulous Christianity......rather, Christianity's inherent unscrupulousness......


Two examples of people donating large sums of money to organizations will be given. There are many other examples. The danger of these con men is their charm. They pretend to be your best friend, care about your welfare and "feel your pain". Many victims, even after they know that they have been taken, still adore these con artists.

Are we talking about the con-men, or Christianity here? I'm leaning towards the latter, which ironically encompasses both......and how much are we talking in donations. What? 15%?:p


[One well-known guru was driven around in a Rolls Royce. His followers donated money to him, while they lived in poverty in an ashram in Oregon. He did not impose a moral code on his followers and beatings were documented at the ashram. He died in prison.

I'd have beaten them too, if they were dumb enough to give me a Rolls, yet starve and live in poverty...plus I'd have slept with their pretty daughters on top of that, then slapped their wives.:D


[Another famous story involves a prisoner who practiced breath control. Without being detected he could cause pages of a book to move by blowing. He pretended to be a born again Christian and converted many inmates by causing the pages of a bible to move and attributing this to the Holy Spirit. After being released, he opened a Kung Fu school and had a large following because of his mystical powers. He became famous and was even invited to Egypt to treat Anwar Sadat. One wealthy man had donated large sums of money to this charlatan and began to spend hours meditating in his room. His sister became suspicious and hired Randi the magician to investigate this martial artist. One of his tricks was to cause a dollar bill under a fish tank to move by blowing in a small space between the tank and the table. Randi distracted him and turned the tank so there was no longer any space between the tank and the table. The Kung Fu artist could not make the dollar bill move. Randi made it move by blowing in the crack, which now faced him. The martial artist thought Randi was a Master and wanted to study with him. This con artist also persuaded some of his students to get guns for him. He was arrested and jailed on a weapons charge. He escaped from jail and still at large. This story appeared in a popular Kung Fu magazine. Even though this con artist had been exposed, it was hinted that some of his powers were real.

Kind of like raising people from the dead, walking on water, healing the blind and the lame, and moving boulders from graves? All you're saying is that your magic is stronger than his "real" sorcery.........think about it and you'll see it's true.......



The danger of belonging to such a cult is that it dulls the intellect. Some people become mindless robots and accept everything at face value instead of using logic, science or proper statistical methods. For example, a common claim is that a Master can cure any disease. This fact has never been verified.

Note the above on the disease thing. And I would caution you: The danger of belonging to a religion is that it is simply a cult that has gained majority status. If you don't believe this, read every Roman history in which Christianity makes an appearance.....note, especially Tacitus.....it's always described as a seditious, dangerous cult.....one that defied local Roman authority and refused to pay its taxes. How Unamerican........:D


[In spiritual Qigong most Masters warn their students not to use any esoteric powers that they gain - for example, don't spend time treating sick people. Some reasons given are that one can be injured by the evil that is causing the disease or that you really can't cure a sick person because it's his karma to be sick. Such advice will keep a disciple on the spiritual path, but is not conducive to the development of science.

Misinformation.........oh my "Please insert your local deity here"! You read these things with a Christian perspective, then transpose upon them your Christian "spirit-world" superstructure as if the world conformed to your warped-worldview. Oh my "Please insert your local deity here"!


[There are many example of Qigong masters in China and elsewhere who used fake photos, chemically treated paper which catches fire and other carnival tricks to impress their followers.

It was called the Cultural Revolution......and their tricks/spirit boxing, etc. aren't a part of kung-fu nowadays, and died with them. Extant Chinese MA don't contain these elements, and consider them illegitimate. But for hte carnival tricks....note my rebuttal two posts above, again.;) ...then add a little Moses....and Joshua....and Paul....and then add some water.


[[B][U]and excessive practice of Qigong and meditation can cause psychoses. Seizures can also result from improper or excessive practice of Qigong or meditation. These seizures become easier to induce with practice. Some Masters regard seizures as a form of religious ecstasy.

You can get siezures from patterns of flashing lights. Are there demons in photons, too? Christians believed seizures were the results of demonic possession. Your oversights are glaring and downright ridiculous......so much for "using logic, science or proper statistical methods...." NEXT!!!!:


[Improper practice or the wrong kind of Qigong can cause many physical problems such as hair loss, dizziness, headaches, nausea, difficult breathing, etc. Improper posture can cause chronic pain in any part of the body.

Oh, really? ;) And will Christ fix my posture? I'm not sure where you're going with this....:confused: I get those same problems when I go running, or when I practice kung-fu improperly. All it means is that I've done it wrong. Ain't no spirits, my friend.....:p


[For example certain forms of Qigong can increase one's appetite for food and/ or sex.

I agree. I'm a stud in the sack. Ask any of my girlfriends if you don't believe.

I regret defending you on any position you take.:o

You, my friend, are a psychonaut.:eek:

[lunghushan]

Let me just say that I disagree with JDK. You know, JDK, I deleted this before, but have you ever looked into the symbolism in your own religion? Christianity?

Take the 5 loaves and 2 fishes in the feeding of the 5000. (5 loaves ... put 5 loaves in a circle, draw lines, what do you have?) And the 2 fishes ... Ever seen a Yin-Yang symbol?

12 disciples. 12 tribes. Why do you suppose there are 12 disciples?

4 gospels. Why do you suppose they depict the 4 gospel disciples as beasts on the 4 corners in a lot of Christian art, such as illuminated manuscripts?

Or the fact that the first part of the Gospel of John is actually a quote from the Vedas.

Bottom line is like most Christians, you haven't bothered to look deeper into your religion. You take out the bits and pieces that suit you, and ignore the rest.

[Ben Gash]

David, you've made a glaring error in your previous post. The whole context of the discussion about the paying of taxes is that the Pharisees are trying to draw him into saying something that they could use to force the Romans to arrest him. The message of this piece isn't "don't rock the boat", it's that God is interested in the spiritual side of your life, He doesn't want your money. The important aspect of this message in JDK's case though is that Jesus declared that it wasn't sinful to pay taxes to Caesar, which many orthodox Jews felt it was.
The message is in NO WAY kowtow to Caesar because he can do you harm, indeed Caesar DID do vast amount of harm to early Christians BECAUSE of their refusal to kowtow to him and acknowledge him as godly (one of the cornerstones of the Roman empire).
Anyway, JDK, you are blatantly trolling. You came to the Southern forum, asking a seemingly sensible question and got some (you'll never get a sensible answer from Lunghushan) sensible answers (which you never responded to). Now you're here making inflammatory statements and casting aspersions.
I've trained in traditional martial arts for nearly half my life, and it is not providing a foothold for the enemy in my life. I am careful about where I train, true, but ultimately the devil is not going to take control of me because I train in martial arts, read Harry Potter or listen to rock music.
Anger, greed, lust, jealousy and pride are all much more real, pressing dangers than occasional exposure to a religion I don't believe in.

[kal]

ergo, anyone who trains an army cannot call themself christian even if they do call themself christian they are not and are heaping a lie upon another lie.

......

If you raise your hand to harm another human, even your enemyu, then you are not christian.



How about the soldiers that defeated Hitler and his allies? Were they un-Christian?

[Ben Gash]

A very common mistake. Pacisfism is not a tenet of Christianity (see the thread on this in the southern forum, as I don't want to have to write it all out again).
Now is being involved in a war a great strain on your faith? Absolutely. It's incredibly difficult not to hate the guy who's shooting at you, and psychologically it's pretty difficult to extend agape to the guy you're shooting at.

[Shaolin Wookie]

A very common mistake. Pacisfism is not a tenet of Christianity

Edit: it is a tenet. Is it practiced?


Not on this green earth.

[lunghushan]

(you'll never get a sensible answer from Lunghushan) sensible answers (which you never responded to).

Actually, Mr. Gash, I was the one who gave him the link to the Christian martial arts association.

Anyways, this is all a load of crap. JDK given what you've said, why would you even be on this board when obviously people on here are just the sort you don't want to hang with in the school?

You realize that, right? If CMA is evil then you are on an evil board of CMAists. And on a Sunday, no less.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Lung....your posts on JDK's issues are spot on. I've agreed with them to the letter in most cases.

I feel like we're bonding......hahahahaha:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

His sig is ****ing me off!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not Who's (not "whose")right, it's what's right!

Man, this dude is sooooooo wrong....and it's what's wrong!:p

[Shaolin Wookie]

Defense techniques should be done without vengeance or malice, but with firmness. Christians are not the soft "push-overs" the world depicts us to be. This is done through teaching the value of all human life to God and the great sacrifice He made for us. --from JDK's linked website....


I don't think anyone depicts them as "push-overs".

They terrorized Europe and massacred untold numbers of "heretics" and the like. Don't even get me started on "witch-hunts", the "crusades" (specially the Albigensian and 4th), or the "Inquisition".

Everyone knows not to mess with Christians. Just like people don't mess with the mafia.

[Shaolinlueb]

great just what we need. a bunch of born again christians who will now beat your ass if you dont go to their church.

i guess the days of calling the old man in a boyscout uniform a child molester when you leave their service is out of the question now. :mad:

[BlueTravesty]

JDK, I think I understand where you're coming from, but I don't know if I can be of any help. I am a Christian, but I was attending a school where we bowed both to our sifu and to a picture of the founder of our style (who died in 1962) had a fan with a Dragon, and a statuette of Guan Yu. I never thought to take issue to these things, much like I don't take issue to naming days of the week after pagan deities, or referring to months of the year after Roman Emperors. I'm not saying you're wrong for abstaining and taking offense to these things, I'm just saying I don't know how to help since it never occurred to me that they would harm me. Sifu never did any "spiritual" talk. He'd mention Chi every once in a while (as efficient biomechanics co-ordinated with breathing.) but never went into Buddhism or Taoism or Confucianism. Paul outlined similar issues ("ambiguous" issues among the believers, such as the eating of meat offered to idols, etc.) in his Epistles, most notably Romans and his response was essentially this: "If you feel it's wrong, but it's not forbidden by scripture, the it's wrong." Where the scriptures are silent, you must use your conscience. If you feel uncomfortable practicing Martial Arts in a secular or Eastern-Religious atmosphere, seek what you can practice in peace.

As for the whole violence thing- here's my stance. If someone came up to me on the street and hit me, my first response would be to find out why I was being hit- perhaps the fellow feels he has a valid grievance against me, and I would love to address that rather than have the fellow dig himself deeper by continuing to bear hatred toward me for whatever reason. If he was deranged I wouldn't hit him. I'd try not to get hit, but I wouldn't hit back- after all if he's in a state of dementia for whatever reason hitting him would do nothing but bring unnecessary harm. If the guy somehow knew I was a Christian and decided to hit me because of that, I wouldn't resist either (this happened to me when I was in 9th grade, at the hands of a random jock who caught sight of a WWJD bracelet that I had snapped onto my backpack.) In short, my first response would not be to bring my elbow down on the attacking arm, stomp kick the knee, and knock him to the ground.

Now if that random thug decided to attack my family or friends, I would do whatever is necessary to protect them without causing excessive harm to the assailant.

[lunghushan]

It must be a strange day or something, Shaolin Wookie.

Although, I always thought that when Jesus said turn the other cheek, he meant to moon the person (turn the butt cheek). Or maybe it was a reference to spanking ... do me like that. LOL

Anyways, whatever... we got a thread here of a guy who is promoting Christianity. We got a thread with a guy who seems to be promoting psychotic criminals.

LOL

[qiphlow]

didn't jesus also teach not to worship him, but to worship god? and before you say that jesus is god, i have to say that we're all god. 'cuz god is everywhere. and everything. and is also referred to as tao. and allah. and yahweh. etc, etc. and so even worship of satan himself is worshipping god--'cuz if it ain't, then god is not all powerful, and therefore not the supreme being.

[JDK]

His sig is ****ing me off!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not Who's (not "whose")right, it's what's right!

Man, this dude is sooooooo wrong....and it's what's wrong!:p


Thanks for pointing out my mispelling ..I have changed it.

JDK;)

[JDK]

didn't jesus also teach not to worship him, but to worship god? and before you say that jesus is god, i have to say that we're all god. 'cuz god is everywhere. and everything. and is also referred to as tao. and allah. and yahweh. etc, etc. and so even worship of satan himself is worshipping god--'cuz if it ain't, then god is not all powerful, and therefore not the supreme being.

The following is just my opinion. Like everyone else on this Board I am alowed to voice it....again, I am not "trolling" as someone suggested or "..trying to pick a fight or start an argument I stated my purpose honestly on a previous thread. I am a believer who likes the Martial Arts. Period.

No other Agenda here.

I do apologize for Offending anyone elses beliefs..I will be careful NOT to repeat my mistake..please forgive me.

The Bible is crystal clear that ONLY the One True God is to be worshipped.
Even Angels refused worship when making periodic appreances on Earth.
From the giving of the Ten Commandments to Moses...to Jesus..and forever this will not change.

Ex 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD,

Lu 4:8
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1Ti 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


and Yes..Jesus was God in the Flesh...sent to redeem us from Sin...

John 3
3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Php 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

JDK

[GeneChing]

Did you catch our last issue, JDK? Our 2007 January/February (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=687) cover story featured a renown Christian grandmaster, Yu Hai. All our cover stories are available online if you have issues with the rest of the issue, which focuses on Shaolin and Buddhism.

[kal]

The following is just my opinion. Like everyone else on this Board I am alowed to voice it....again, I am not "trolling" as someone suggested or "..trying to pick a fight or start an argument I stated my purpose honestly on a previous thread. I am a believer who likes the Martial Arts. Period.

No other Agenda here.

I do apologize for Offending anyone elses beliefs..I will be careful NOT to repeat my mistake..please forgive me.

The Bible is crystal clear that ONLY the One True God is to be worshipped.
Even Angels refused worship when making periodic appreances on Earth.
From the giving of the Ten Commandments to Moses...to Jesus..and forever this will not change.

Ex 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD,

Lu 4:8
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1Ti 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


and Yes..Jesus was God in the Flesh...sent to redeem us from Sin...

John 3
3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Php 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

JDK

Don't forget this one:

"They can be a great people. they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all -- their capacity for good -- I have sent them you. My only son."

[qiphlow]

www.meditationexpert.com

non-denominational spiritual cultivation site. tons of articles and good information. even some stuff about christian spiritual cultivation

[MasterKiller]

The Bible is crystal clear that ONLY the One True God is to be worshipped.
Even Angels refused worship when making periodic appreances on Earth.
From the giving of the Ten Commandments to Moses...to Jesus..and forever this will not change.

Actually, the Bible is pretty clear that God is to be worshipped AHEAD of other gods. Jews have not always been monotheistic.

Exodus 20:2-17
"You shall have no other gods before me."

Deuteronomy 5:6-21
"You shall have no other gods before me."

[lunghushan]

Actually, the Bible is pretty clear that God is to be worshipped AHEAD of other gods. Jews have not always been monotheistic.

Exodus 20:2-17
"You shall have no other gods before me."

Deuteronomy 5:6-21
"You shall have no other gods before me."

All I can say is Oy Vey ... but hey, at least he's not like that other thread where the guy seemed to be promoting criminal psychotics.

[htowndragon]

JDK


read da vinci code

or the Last Templar


although the books are fiction, they use facts to make it into a story.

i.e. the theory of the divinity of jesus being "voted on" is actual history.

[5Animals1Path]

My Sifu's a born again christian. When you look over the mirror at our school, there's one of those cool sectional panels of art of the Vietnamese version of the 8 immortals. Know why? Cause he's Vietnamese, and it's a cool piece of art, and it's got a neat myth about kung fu tied to it. We don't worship anything, we don't bow to it, frankly, we don't pay a whole lot of attention to it.

On the flip side, he also doesn't give sermons in the middle of pushups, doesn't talk down about anyone else's beliefs, and is generally more interested in teaching students to defend themselves and end a fight. Does this make him a bad christian? Not the way I see it. He gives people something to focus on. He shows people what discipline means, and how to control yourself. He shows you about 400 ways to deal with a situation, from the overly bloody to the rather safely pin-locked. He reads his bible when we've all got a handle on what we're doing for the day, and will offer any of his students advice if they ask.

The difference is, he doesn't brow beat his beliefs on anyone, which'd make alot of people uncomfortable. The only outward sign you might slightly guess from is the dove holding an olive branch on our school's emblem. I'd wager, and suspect I'm right, that anyone who puts up symbols of their own religion everywhere is working way too hard to convince everyone else, and possibly themselves, they believe something they most likely don't. Calling nearly anything "Religious Fighting" is asking for a whole stupid heap of trouble. If you truely believe in God, then He knows you love Him, and you'll find out sometimes you have to pay lip service to other people to keep the peace.

[JDK]

Did you catch our last issue, JDK? Our 2007 January/February (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=687) cover story featured a renown Christian grandmaster, Yu Hai. All our cover stories are available online if you have issues with the rest of the issue, which focuses on Shaolin and Buddhism.

Thanks a million Mr Ching! I have picked up your Magizine many times at Borders Bookstore and other places~ Next time I will buy one~:)

I appreciate this Link...I skimmed it, but I will go back through and read it in depth later...again thank you

JDK

[JDK]

My Sifu's a born again christian. When you look over the mirror at our school, there's one of those cool sectional panels of art of the Vietnamese version of the 8 immortals. Know why? Cause he's Vietnamese, and it's a cool piece of art, and it's got a neat myth about kung fu tied to it. We don't worship anything, we don't bow to it, frankly, we don't pay a whole lot of attention to it.

On the flip side, he also doesn't give sermons in the middle of pushups, doesn't talk down about anyone else's beliefs, and is generally more interested in teaching students to defend themselves and end a fight. Does this make him a bad christian? Not the way I see it. He gives people something to focus on. He shows people what discipline means, and how to control yourself. He shows you about 400 ways to deal with a situation, from the overly bloody to the rather safely pin-locked. He reads his bible when we've all got a handle on what we're doing for the day, and will offer any of his students advice if they ask.

The difference is, he doesn't brow beat his beliefs on anyone, which'd make alot of people uncomfortable. The only outward sign you might slightly guess from is the dove holding an olive branch on our school's emblem. I'd wager, and suspect I'm right, that anyone who puts up symbols of their own religion everywhere is working way too hard to convince everyone else, and possibly themselves, they believe something they most likely don't. Calling nearly anything "Religious Fighting" is asking for a whole stupid heap of trouble. If you truely believe in God, then He knows you love Him, and you'll find out sometimes you have to pay lip service to other people to keep the peace.

Thank you for your thughtful reply.
Sounds like a school I would be very comfortable it.

I wish you well

JDK

[Royal Dragon]

Anyways, whatever... we got a thread here of a guy who is promoting Christianity. We got a thread with a guy who seems to be promoting psychotic criminals.

Reply]
We should merge the two and see what happenes! :D

didn't jesus also teach not to worship him, but to worship god? and before you say that jesus is god, i have to say that we're all god. 'cuz god is everywhere. and everything. and is also referred to as tao. and allah. and yahweh. etc, etc. and so even worship of satan himself is worshipping god--'cuz if it ain't, then god is not all powerful, and therefore not the supreme being.

Reply]
God is *Not* all powerfull. I have logical proof of this.

God cannot make an object that he is *Not* capeable of moving.

If he *Can* do so, then he is not capeable of moving said object.

God is thearfore lacking in one power and not *All Powerful*. Either he cannot make the object in the first place, OR he lacks the power to move it once he has made it.

I am waiting for my lightning bolt......

[SevenStar]

Did you catch our last issue, JDK? Our 2007 January/February (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=687) cover story featured a renown Christian grandmaster, Yu Hai. All our cover stories are available online if you have issues with the rest of the issue, which focuses on Shaolin and Buddhism.


I'll check it out in march, when the issue actually gets to my mailbox...:mad:

[SevenStar]

Anyways, whatever... we got a thread here of a guy who is promoting Christianity. We got a thread with a guy who seems to be promoting psychotic criminals.

Reply]
We should merge the two and see what happenes! :D

didn't jesus also teach not to worship him, but to worship god? and before you say that jesus is god, i have to say that we're all god. 'cuz god is everywhere. and everything. and is also referred to as tao. and allah. and yahweh. etc, etc. and so even worship of satan himself is worshipping god--'cuz if it ain't, then god is not all powerful, and therefore not the supreme being.

Reply]
God is *Not* all powerfull. I have logical proof of this.

God cannot make an object that he is *Not* capeable of moving.

If he *Can* do so, then he is not capeable of moving said object.

God is thearfore lacking in one power and not *All Powerful*. Either he cannot make the object in the first place, OR he lacks the power to move it once he has made it.

I am waiting for my lightning bolt......


He cannot make an object that he can't move because there is nothing that he cannot move. That would indeed make him all-powerful.

[SevenStar]

The Bible is crystal clear that ONLY the One True God is to be worshipped.



As MK pointed out, no, it does not...

[Royal Dragon]

He cannot make an object that he can't move because there is nothing that he cannot move. That would indeed make him all-powerful.


Reply]
No it doesn't. He *Still* Lacks the power to make the unmoveable object in the first place.

[golden arhat]

[b]http://www.gmau.org/constitution.htm


Can Anyone out there identify with me?

JDK

hell no

and who is the enemy then fuktard ?
oh yeah all them terrible buddhists and taoists and superstitious ppl

well guess what ive never seen a war criminal who was any of the above
i can name loads of christian ones

[MasterKiller]

He cannot make an object that he can't move because there is nothing that he cannot move. That would indeed make him all-powerful.


Reply]
No it doesn't. He *Still* Lacks the power to make the unmoveable object in the first place.

Well, considering we live in a multi-dimensional universe that contains inifinite possibilites, he can do both. Not here. In front of you. But somewhere.

[Royal Dragon]

If he can make an object he cannot move, in only one universe, then he still lacks one power, in one universe, and is NOT all powerful.

If there is only one universe where he cannot make an object that is unmovable to him, then he is not all powerful.

God is beyond the constructs of various universes. To him it's all one big universe, with many smaller universes of infinate possiblity contained with in his own perspective. So, if he can make the inmoveable object in one, but can't in the other it really does not matter, he still either lacks the power to make it, or he lacks the power to move it.

OR, in your infinate universe theory, he lacks 2 powers, in one universe he lacks the power to make it, AND in another he lacks the power to move it, so in your model, he is even less powerful than in mine.


I am Sooo gonna get hit with a lightning bolt for this!! :D

[MasterKiller]

It's your inability to see beyond this reality that placed the limitation construct in your mind. It's not an issue of God's power, but your inability to comprehend the true nature of it.

[Royal Dragon]

Irrelevant. Reguardless of the argument, I stated that I have "Logical" proof. I have presented logical proof, and used logical analysis to disprove your posiiton on the subject.

It does not matter if I comprehend the true nature of God or not. The laws of Logic prove my case.

Also, since we are created in God's image, then it is logical that we should be able to comprehend him.

[MasterKiller]

Irrelevant. Reguardless of the argument, I stated that I have "Logical" proof. I have presented logical proof, and used logical analysis to disprove your posiiton on the subject.

It does not matter if I comprehend the true nature of God or not. The laws of Logic prove my case.

Also, since we are created in God's image, then it is logical that we should be able to comprehend him.


The logic is flawed because of the construct of the argument. If God is this guy, sitting on a cloud, watching you masterbate, then yes, your argument works.

But talking about God is basically like asking fish to describe the water in which they live.

[Fu-Pow]

If anyone wants to read a book that basically slaps religion upside the head I would highly recommend "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.

But be forewarned, he's pretty extreme, and even I found parts of it hard to read as I tend to fall into the "spiritual but not religious" category.

Anyways, there's a part in the book where he talks about research that has shown devout religiosity activates similiar parts of the brain as being in romantic love (don't ask me how they tested this because I don't remember.)

My point is that for all the reasonable, rational arguments against God you have about as much chance of changing someones mind about belief in God as you do as rationally convincing somebody they're not romantically in love with someone.

FP

[Royal Dragon]

Does the water have the power to make an inmoveable object, or not?

[PlumDragon]

I dont want to get into it, but wanted to offer a quick bit of rhetoric in regards to "logic":

Logic is a means of inference, a model for reasoning and deducing sound conclusions based on what one already knows (or thinks they know) about a system/environment/etc.

Logic is *not* the science that explains the Universe or the details that build a foundation of understanding (that job belongs to Physics). One can speak of logical constructs to consider a topic, regardless of whether or not the fundamental assumptions are correct OR NOT. That is to say, that by making many of the arguments in this or any other conversation/debate, the logic process can be correct, but the conclusion will not be correct if the fundamental assumptions that the logic was applied to were not.

For example, a fundamental assumption of the above argument, one thats been around since man could pontificate, is that the object that is being spoken of, one that cannot be moved by some physical means, is something that could even exist. Is it anchored to a point in the Universe in a way which disallows movement? Has it always existed at this point, or did it come into being at that point (and therefore moved from some other location)? Does the very being of space-time even support such a nebulous object?

Really, not knowing the answers to the above questions makes any conclusion one makes a great exercise in logical inference, but all but useless as a sound conclusion...As it happens, the roots of religion are not based on logic or critical thinking, so my recommendation would be to leave out the Philosophy 101... =)

[Fu-Pow]

Oh yeah...and one other thing...every Abrahamic religion (ie Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all have a mystical branch....ie Kaballah, Gnosticism and Sufiism respectively. However, these branches of the religion are not accepted by the mainstream religions because, in my opinion, they represent a threat to their worldly power.

Aldous Huxley referred to the similarity in the mystic branches of religions the Perennial Philosophy. It is the idea that although religions call religious experience by many different names it is all the same God, Tao, Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu, etc. just interepreted through different cultural lenses.

Some food for thought.

FP

[SevenStar]

I am sorry you had to witness such nonsense , using the name of Christ to promote it. I know they had good intentions...but it was misdirected and bad for the name of Christ.:(

I agree with you Wookie......THAT was not Martial Arts nor Christianity.

I've seen the power team also. It's not meant to be martial arts, and they are christian. I didn't take it as they were trying to say those were feats jesus could do - they were merely inspirational speakers. As a matter of fact, they had a tv show for a while, if I'm not mistaken. They are showing that you can be christian and still do things like work out. That seems to be a big thing these days, which I don't know that I like or understand. Christians always proclaim that you shouldn't be like the worldly people and that they should stand out. Then they have the power team, christian rap, christian metal, christian singles outings, christian clubs...I've heard gospel songs recorded over tracks by R & B artists, with the words changed to make it a gospel song. What a way to stand out.



Jesus commanded the wind and Seas to be still....and they obeyed.
He opend blind eyes, unstopped deaf ears..made the Lame to walk, healed the Leper and rose people from the Dead.( like Lazuras)

Then in the First Century his disciples did the [u]same things and were recorded by spies from Ceasar and various writers and Scribes....many who were not believers.

He Also rose from the dead for all to see.

I'll take that over an Iron Palm Master any day~:D

God bless

JDK

And that's where faith comes in - you really don't KNOW that he did any of those things. According to the gnostic gospels, jesus was just a man. Ever wonder why miracles were so prominent back then, but you don't see them now? At least not in the same fashion that they were done according to the bible.

[SevenStar]

If anyone wants to read a book that basically slaps religion upside the head I would highly recommend "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.

But be forewarned, he's pretty extreme, and even I found parts of it hard to read as I tend to fall into the "spiritual but not religious" category.

Anyways, there's a part in the book where he talks about research that has shown devout religiosity activates similiar parts of the brain as being in romantic love (don't ask me how they tested this because I don't remember.)

My point is that for all the reasonable, rational arguments against God you have about as much chance of changing someones mind about belief in God as you do as rationally convincing somebody they're not romantically in love with someone.

FP

you're absolutely right. faith is a powerful thing.

[kal]

Can God create a brick that Gene Chicoine couldn't break? That is the important question. :D

[Crushing Fist]

He cannot make an object that he can't move because there is nothing that he cannot move. That would indeed make him all-powerful.


Reply]
No it doesn't. He *Still* Lacks the power to make the unmoveable object in the first place.


RD:

Basically what you are saying boils down to this-

The only power "god" lacks is the power to make himself less than all powerful.

I'm sure you have heard of circular reasoning...


Although your conclusion is logical, it is also meaningless.


How about this:

God is all powerful

God exists everywhere

God created everything

God created trees

God exists in trees

trees cannot move themselves

Therefore, God has made an object that he cannot move, in that he made the tree, is the tree and the tree cannot move itself.


See? "Begging the question" is more fun when it invloves more steps :)


All of this presupposes that God is a sentient conscious being, which can neither be proven nor disproven. So, while logical, the conclusion is meaningless.


The all time best is of course:

The Bible says God is infalible

The Bible is the word of this infalible God

Therefore the Bible must be 100% true


Logic = :p

[The Xia]

oh yeah all them terrible buddhists and taoists and superstitious ppl

well guess what ive never seen a war criminal who was any of the above
i can name loads of christian ones
Many religions are claimed by war criminals. Check out the history of World War 2 Japan.

[qiphlow]

so little johnny was in school, and the teacher asked: "when we die, which part of us goes to heaven first?"

and little johnny replied: "our feet."

the teacher asked little johnny why our feet go to heaven first, and johnny replied: "well, last night, i saw my mommy and daddy praying--mommy had her feet up in the air, and was crying out oh god! oh god!"

[The Xia]

JDK


read da vinci code

or the Last Templar


although the books are fiction, they use facts to make it into a story.

i.e. the theory of the divinity of jesus being "voted on" is actual history.
Things like The DaVinci Code aren't good sources for learning history.

[SevenStar]

no they are not, but they are good for sparking one's interest to learn. And many of the things in those books are indeed true.

[golden arhat]

It's your inability to see beyond this reality that placed the limitation construct in your mind. It's not an issue of God's power, but your inability to comprehend the true nature of it.

god (if he exists) is not a buddha and so is bound by conception and misconception, suffering , death then rebirth

remember all sensation and feeling is created by the mind

[SevenStar]

Can God create a brick that Gene Chicoine couldn't break? That is the important question. :D

No, the important question is who would win a fight between God and chuck norris.

[SevenStar]

god (if he exists) is not a buddha and so is bound by conception and misconception, suffering , death then rebirth


According to whom?



remember all sensation and feeling is created by the mind


during sleep, you are unconscious. If I chop off your poking stick while you are sleep, will you not feel it, simply because your mind is unable to create the sensation of pain? Or will the nerve endings scream "Oh snap, your manhood got chopped off, so you'd better wake up?"

The feeling of pain is not created by the mind. To an extent, you can program your mind to ignore the pain, but that does not kill the sensation.

[True_Tech]

this thread was interesting but the majority of it made me laugh as my mom is a christian, and she too asked questions like this when i mentioned taking up kung fu. i remember one day i checked out a book about wicca cause i had a wiccan friend. and i wanted to know what it was all bout. she went nuts when she saw it saying she doesn't want those kind of spirits in the house. this is a perfectly sane woman who has never said anything like that to me before she doesn't even go to church every sunday but the minute something that might challenge the norm for her she goes nuts.

basically what i'm saying is when it comes to religion common sense disappears as we all know the bible was written by men, men lie as we've seen time and again. I like to believe in a higher power and i go someplace after i die, i admit mostly because it comforts me, i don't like to think this is it, that type of thing freaks me out. but seriously if you feel you need to give up cma because of the eastern ideals they might teach you might as well stop celebrating christmas as well cause we all know its not really a christian holiday

as stormy told odd see you in service

[golden arhat]

during sleep, you are unconscious. If I chop off your poking stick while you are sleep, will you not feel it, simply because your mind is unable to create the sensation of pain? Or will the nerve endings scream "Oh snap, your manhood got chopped off, so you'd better wake up?"

The feeling of pain is not created by the mind. To an extent, you can program your mind to ignore the pain, but that does not kill the sensation.

according to me

and thats exactly my point u can change what happens not by changing the theing happening to u but by the way u react to it
plus the nerves link to your brain anyway hence the feeling of pain

personally i think god is 1 of the following

1 an expression of nature

2 a support system think about it the 10 commandments and weither u follow them dont affect god but only society and the way u live
so all this god based religion is a way of controlling ourselves and dealing with lifes questions

the only valid reason i can thing of for being a believer (note not christian because as i explained it it is a set of principles nothing more) is if u can feel gods presence around u and then u either need to get checked into a mental asylum or worship him in your own way
being a christian and living as a christian is different

[@PLUGO]

No, the important question is who would win a fight between God and chuck norris.

BATMAN would win.

[Royal Dragon]

No, the important question is who would win a fight between God and chuck norris.

Reply]
It would be a draw.

As for Batman, Chuck Norris would kick his ass right and propper.

[IronWeasel]

No, the important question is who would win a fight between God and chuck norris.


Trick question.


Chuck Norris *IS* God!

[David Jamieson]

Chuck Norris is at best a demi-urge and at worst, a higher level demon from the upper levels of hell...where they stil look a little human. :P

Batman would defeat Chuck Norris.

All that aside, i find a couple of things interesting.

People keep referring to "god" as "him". That's messed up because it is wholly dependent on a patriarchal view. If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, then God cannot have gender ascribed. God is god, not man nor woman, just God.

No one seems to recognize that Jesus, if he actually existed, was by all accounts a rabbi and preserved the rabbinical teachings. His crime was that he went against the Talmudic jewish Laws with his hippy like teachings. He lived the life of a Jew, most of his disciples were Jews and yes, he was probably married seeing as within he bounds of jewish custom, he would have had zero street cred if he didn't have a wife at his age.

Jesus was "voted" into divinity and never made the claim himself. he taught in parrabels and the line about "i am the way, i am the light" is not unlike the sermon in deer park and the subsequent call to adherance to teh 8 fold path that we find in buddhism.

the buddha is considered divine by many, but still recognized as the same flesh as you or I.

jesus was said to have said when asked by Pontius Pilate: "Are you the son of god", his reply "We are all children of God".

most of the wisdom attributed to teh teachings of jesus preceeded him by a long time. There is something called the "Q" (not star trek q you freakin geeks) and the "Q" is essentially the collected wisdom of the ages compiled.

do unto others is in there. love each other is in there, consider the lillies of the field and perhaps most importantly in context to the teachings of jesus, the story of the mustard seed is in there.

By the way, the story of the mustard seed parralels the story of the mango seed in buddhism in many ways contextually.

Anyway, internet forums are the worst place to evangelize, but not bad places for discovering like mindedness.

Being into Jesus and the Martial arts is fine. In fact, any choice you make in your life as you carry on is fine so long as intention is correct as far as Im concerned.

No harm, no foul. Especially when you cannot expect taht everyone will hold to the same set of morals and ethics that you may hold to. As for what each of us "really and actually" believes. I'm willing to bet that for the most part, even ourselves as ourselves are not entirely certain.

Humans are very much in need of visceral experience to establish firm belief.

anyway, what did you think about before you were born?

[BlueTravesty]

anyway, what did you think about before you were born?

I thought "man, it's warm in here. Wow, these other guys look just like me, and there're thousands of them! Swimming is fun! Oh no, I'm going to crash into that big round thing over there!"

[cjurakpt]

there is a very reasonable body of evidence that suggest Jesus was influenced by the Buddhist teachings that had plenty of time to get from India to his area over 500 years or so (evidently Alexandria had its fair share of Buddhist scholars); that and his association with a group like the Essenses would make sense as well; when did this happen? well, if you recall, the gospels that made the cut describe his life up to a young teenager, and then, bango, noting until he reappears in his early 30's; whaddaya think he did during the intervening 25 years or so?

so he was basically a spiritual teacher with some new ideas that got misinterpreted by his disciples and subsequent followers who came up with the nifty idea that he was the one true son of god and this got further corrupted and dogmatized by guys like Augustine and Origen and others (I foget specifics - it's been a while since I've read anything like History of God by Karen Armstrong)

also, the whole idea of CMA being a gateway to the occult and demonic possession - I guess I must be living proof of that :rolleyes:

for a guy who said everyone should just love each other, there sure has been a world of pain generated by those who claim to follow him (funny, it's the opposite of Buddhism - how many wars started by / fought on behalf of Buddhists have there been?) - personally, I think that he started preaching too early - he wasn't quite "cooked" and so was not able to deliver his message with the same equanimity as the Buddha - he spoke out of his passion, which got transferred to his followers, etc. etc.; if he had waited another 20 or 30 years, it may have been much different...

and yeah, he prbably was married, most likely had a relationship with Mary Magdalene - certainly celibacy was not on his agenda...

oh, and he was a blonde white guy (at least according to the pictures in the books)

[Royal Dragon]

I thought he was a long, dark haired arab looking dude....

[NJM]

and yeah, he prbably was married, most likely had a relationship with Mary Magdalene - certainly celibacy was not on his agenda...

oh, and he was a blonde white guy (at least according to the pictures in the books)

Lol, he was a white blonde guy because of the King James version of the bible. And it's already been proven that Dan Brown's theory is full of holes, almost as many holes as there were plot holes in the ****ty, horribly bad book "desception point."

Please, JKD. I'm practically BEGGING YOU here. Please, religion is a personal thing, it involves introspection, elaboration, even questioning it's validity. Once you make one assumption that isn't the word of Jesus, you're making inferences. Inferences are something to be shared with others only if you first make it clear that you're guessing.

I believe in Jesus and the New Testament, with the exception of the vengance, threats and superstition, which I have guessed myself was added into the New Testament later. You see, I don't need to choose to interpret the bible either literally or figuratively. I just take it into consideration when I act. Weren't you taught that the only way to truely see evil is with your concience? Don't try to look for symbols, patterns, etc in non-Christian religions to find evil. That isn't rooting out evil, it's superstition, paranoia and the desire to improperly equalize the universe. I embrace Daoism because I feel that it is incredibly true, just as I embrace the New Testament because I find it incredibly true, and aspects of the Qua'ran and the Eightfold path, and the Vedas.

You see, you're looking for a solid, never changing rule to live your life by. That's just being lazy and cowardly. You think that Jesus wanted you to not question or think on religion? I seriously doubt that.

How do I justify my use of the martial arts while still following the ideals of nonviolence laid out by these texts? I am merely preparing myself. To quote the Daodejing, "Keep weapons and armour, but do not employ them." I am simply gathering the means. If a situation arises where I have to fight, I will not be any more guilty for being trained in the art of fighting.

And just because you have a notion about Christianity doesn't mean that you have to tell other people. I think that people can mess with your Qi. I also think that evil isn't the worst force out there. There are forces which appose good, evil, and all of existence. There is no diety worship in the southern styles of spiritual meditation. They are just interpreted that way by the Catholic and Evangelical churches (among others, probably the LDS.) That would be like saying Buddhists worship buddha. It's just flat out idiotic to think that way.

[Anthony]

"there is a very reasonable body of evidence that suggest...."

Sure. But still, nothing is definite. I saw a doc. that suggested that Jesus might have travelled to China for a time. It was very interesting but in the end they don't give you any definites. You still can't say for sure.

There is reasonable evidence, for example, to suggest that Marco Polo was not born in Venice (as every encyclopaedia states). The borders of Venice at the time of his birth were not the same as that of today. Anyway, you get my point. It's so long ago that different theories pop up based on what could have happened.

The gnostic gospels can be taken as frauds and forgeries (I'm guessing frauds existed back then too) or you can be some sort of conspiracy theorist and say that they were covered up for some religious political reason. Or, you can take the gnostics and tweak history to come up with the DaVinci code. There is fuel out there for any viewpoint. Depends on what you want to accept in order to suit your purpose. But, I don't see too much certainty or else there would be no discussion. Faith is a choice. And for those who believe (whatever their reason), I don't see a need to look any further than the Bible.

Was Jesus a cellibut, was he black or white?........It's all in the "whatever" category for me. I don't really care. It's about the message.

I am Roman Catholic, by the way and I don't see anything more worth believing in.

If people say "youre brainwashed" then fine. Anyone who's ever bought a Valentine's Day or Mother's Day card is also brainwashed. Your'e doing what society tells you to like some sheep. It's just one brainwashing vs. another I guess.

[mantis108]

there is a very reasonable body of evidence that suggest Jesus was influenced by the Buddhist teachings that had plenty of time to get from India to his area over 500 years or so (evidently Alexandria had its fair share of Buddhist scholars); that and his association with a group like the Essenses would make sense as well; when did this happen? well, if you recall, the gospels that made the cut describe his life up to a young teenager, and then, bango, noting until he reappears in his early 30's; whaddaya think he did during the intervening 25 years or so?

so he was basically a spiritual teacher with some new ideas that got misinterpreted by his disciples and subsequent followers who came up with the nifty idea that he was the one true son of god and this got further corrupted and dogmatized by guys like Augustine and Origen and others (I foget specifics - it's been a while since I've read anything like History of God by Karen Armstrong)

also, the whole idea of CMA being a gateway to the occult and demonic possession - I guess I must be living proof of that :rolleyes:

for a guy who said everyone should just love each other, there sure has been a world of pain generated by those who claim to follow him (funny, it's the opposite of Buddhism - how many wars started by / fought on behalf of Buddhists have there been?) - personally, I think that he started preaching too early - he wasn't quite "cooked" and so was not able to deliver his message with the same equanimity as the Buddha - he spoke out of his passion, which got transferred to his followers, etc. etc.; if he had waited another 20 or 30 years, it may have been much different...

and yeah, he prbably was married, most likely had a relationship with Mary Magdalene - certainly celibacy was not on his agenda...

oh, and he was a blonde white guy (at least according to the pictures in the books)

Ah, Karen Armstrong! Well, I think she outlined the history of God as:

El -> Baal -> Yawhaw (I am who I am) -> Trinity [not the hot chick in Matrix] :D

something to that effect. It was and in essence still is a tribal war god no matter how all the preachers try to spin it. If it isn't why would we still have war after war in not only middle east? How many major war in the world is not done in the name of this war god? BTW, Christian often use the fish as symbol which in Hindu tradition is associated with Vishnu the preserver. Is it really that farfetch to see that there is similarity in Baptism and Hindu's who purify themselves in the River Gange?

To All,

Buddhism doesn't equal atheism or pacificism for that matter. BTW, people equated the Buddha (human prince) with Vishnu in India as well. But non violent, self help and helping others are pretty much the core of Buddhism. Didn't Jesus claimed to be the son of God? Isn't Jesus supposed to be the Priest-King from the Davidic line? Are the Christian values that far away from that of Buddhism?

Mantis108

[Anthony]

"and subsequent followers who came up with the nifty idea that he was the one true son of god..."

Not to harp on the whole "is religion for real" thing but I was always taught that Jesus did claim to be the son of God and claimed that he was God. Either way, the above statement seems to have a negative spin on it (which I understand if youre not religious). Like I said above, we believe what suits our purpose. Couldn't one just as easily say that they (his followers) were "convinced" that he was the son of God rather than they simply "came up" with the notion. I mean, they gave up their lives to follow him, at the very least they must have been convinced somehow to do this.

Again, this is all lost to time and rhetorical but it illustrates how things can be twisted.

As far as one teaching sounding like another it's not a news flash. Truth can be universal. Does anyone discredit Dr. King for sounding like Ghandi.

There's hardly anything pertaining to religion that can't be argued/counter-argued.

And this whole "is martial arts evil" thing. Can't we take a lesson from the movie "Footloose" in the book burning scene.........."The evil is not in these books, it's in your hearts...."

[SevenStar]

Lol, he was a white blonde guy because of the King James version of the bible. And it's already been proven that Dan Brown's theory is full of holes, almost as many holes as there were plot holes in the ****ty, horribly bad book "desception point."

blond? according to the bible he had skin of bronze and hair like wool...considering the location of these events, I would say that he was arabic looking.



I believe in Jesus and the New Testament, with the exception of the vengance, threats and superstition, which I have guessed myself was added into the New Testament later.

why do you think this?



How do I justify my use of the martial arts while still following the ideals of nonviolence laid out by these texts? I am merely preparing myself. To quote the Daodejing, "Keep weapons and armour, but do not employ them." I am simply gathering the means. If a situation arises where I have to fight, I will not be any more guilty for being trained in the art of fighting.

to quote the bible: "he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."



And just because you have a notion about Christianity doesn't mean that you have to tell other people.

In a sense, yes it does.

[NJM]

1. blond? according to the bible he had skin of bronze and hair like wool...considering the location of these events, I would say that he was arabic looking.




2. why do you think this?




3. to quote the bible: "he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."




4. In a sense, yes it does.

1. First: I was saying that he is depicted as white because of the king james version of the bible, not because he actually was. He was probably arabic. Please make an effort to read and understand posts before you relpy to them.

2. Why do I think vengance and threats were added later? Because they create a consequence if you don't believe in the faith, it's part of informational contagion theory. A being as all-knowing and belevolent as god wouldn't send everyone to hell just because they didn't believe in him. I believe that god wants this so that people can benifit, not out of the desire for worshippers. I believe that we exist for two reasons: To bear witness and to share god's image; I think that god's image refers to a concious being, because until we came along, with the exception of possible aliens, he was the only conciousness. Again, that is my NOTION, and I would never make anyone swallow my elaboration.

3. Exactly my point.

4. I said you shouldn't spread YOUR NOTION of Christianity. If you spread it at all, don't elaborate and give it in it's pure form. The reason that we have so many secs of christianity is because every smart guy who thinks on the bible comes with certain dissagreements with his church, and instead of just disagreeing and forming his own opinion and looking inward, his ego forces him to make others interpret it as he does. Please make an effort to read and understand posts before you relpy to them. The Bible doesn't say "Read the Bible, draw conclusions, and preach those conclusions instead of showing people the bible."

BTW, if you guys are Christian Fundamentalists, I won't argue about this anymore. Simply because there's no changing your opinion. If you think that the devil is going to take your soul because you did some movements or spoke some words, There really isn't anything I can do to change that. If the devil exists, he's not even close to what's out there.

[lunghushan]

1. First: I was saying that he is depicted as white because of the king james version of the bible, not because he actually was. He was probably arabic. Please make an effort to read and understand posts before you relpy to them.


In all the photos that my parents and grandparents had, they always had him as a tanned white guy. LOL

Seriously, who the heck cares what these people believe? As long as they aren't bombing us or shooting us because we don't believe. And if the bombing or shooting starts, then, we'll all be sure to go to Church on Sunday. LOL

[qiphlow]

well I like to believe that humans were genetically engineered by a race of aliens from sirius--just read chariots of the gods and you will see the light...


:D :rolleyes: :D

[Royal Dragon]

well I like to believe that humans were genetically engineered by a race of aliens from sirius--just read chariots of the gods and you will see the light...

Reply]
Agreed. Although, we may be an early colony of thiers, and not know it too. That would explain how early civilisations had such knowledge, and understanding of herbal medicine accupunture and accupressure.

I mean, how did a technically primitave society figure out accupunture anyway? It had to have been taught to them by a superior intelect, or a more advanced civalisation, someone with the advanced (even beyond our current) technology to plot and map the human nervious system, and also had the technical means to identify all the acupunture points and study their effects in a discaplined and scientific way to created a functional medicinal system.

Think about it. Back in ancient time, there was no mass comminucation, so the disvoveries of a point, and it's use could not be shared on a wide spread scale, yet somehow a really deep and inclusive system of accupuncture and herbal healing developed under those condititons?

Look what it takes to get a modern drug to the market, all the clinical testing and such, and the amount of science it takes to figure it all out. It's on a scale that is absolutly geometric compared to what the Chinese had 10,000 years ago.

[qiphlow]

well I like to believe that humans were genetically engineered by a race of aliens from sirius--just read chariots of the gods and you will see the light...

Reply]
Agreed. Although, we may be an early colony of thiers, and not know it too. That would explain how early civilisations had such knowledge, and understanding of herbal medicine accupunture and accupressure.

I mean, how did a technically primitave society figure out accupunture anyway? It had to have been taught to them by a superior intelect, or a more advanced civalisation, someone with the advanced (even beyond our current) technology to plot and map the human nervious system, and also had the technical means to identify all the acupunture points and study their effects in a discaplined and scientific way to created a functional medicinal system.

Think about it. Back in ancient time, there was no mass comminucation, so the disvoveries of a point, and it's use could not be shared on a wide spread scale, yet somehow a really deep and inclusive system of accupuncture and herbal healing developed under those condititons?

Look what it takes to get a modern drug to the market, all the clinical testing and such, and the amount of science it takes to figure it all out. It's on a scale that is absolutly geometric compared to what the Chinese had 10,000 years ago.

or perhaps all our modern technology has caused us to forget all our "superhuman" abilities because we have machines and electronic devices to do everything for us. i do think that the planet has been visited before, and the australian aboriginal people have an oral history that spans about 40,000 years--their paintings of the dreamtime look like maps of planetary energy lines, and the shamans paint themselves with markings that look suspiciously like qi meridians. humans have probably been in contact with other beings in the universe for a long, long time

[Shaolinlueb]

ok, my 2 cents of trollign this thread

hail satan!

[Royal Dragon]

or perhaps all our modern technology has caused us to forget all our "superhuman" abilities because we have machines and electronic devices to do everything for us

Reply]
I don't think so, we have not been technologically advanced for very long. It seems doubtfull we would lose that so quickly.

[SevenStar]

well I like to believe that humans were genetically engineered by a race of aliens from sirius--just read chariots of the gods and you will see the light...


:D :rolleyes: :D

I have that book.

speaking of sirius, The dogons are an amazing people

[SevenStar]

1. First: I was saying that he is depicted as white because of the king james version of the bible, not because he actually was. He was probably arabic. Please make an effort to read and understand posts before you relpy to them.

I'll read better when you read the bible properly. if you're referring to what I think you are, revelation mentions a white head and hair like wool. It then says that he had feet of brass. All of that is obviously symbolic. It's not saying that he was a white guy with blond hair and black feet.


2. Why do I think vengance and threats were added later? Because they create a consequence if you don't believe in the faith, it's part of informational contagion theory. A being as all-knowing and belevolent as god wouldn't send everyone to hell just because they didn't believe in him. I believe that god wants this so that people can benifit, not out of the desire for worshippers. I believe that we exist for two reasons: To bear witness and to share god's image; I think that god's image refers to a concious being, because until we came along, with the exception of possible aliens, he was the only conciousness. Again, that is my NOTION, and I would never make anyone swallow my elaboration.

I've actually thought about that myself and have asked several pastors about it. They have all told me the same thing - that he sends the defiant to hell, not the ignorant. For example, you have a buddhist who HAS heard the gospel, but refuses to convert. that person will go to hell. The buddhist who had never heard the gospel and was completely ignorant of it would not.


3. Exactly my point.

I know that was your point - I was supporting it. you gave the daodejing vpassage and I gave something similar form the bible.


4. I said you shouldn't spread YOUR NOTION of Christianity. If you spread it at all, don't elaborate and give it in it's pure form. The reason that we have so many secs of christianity is because every smart guy who thinks on the bible comes with certain dissagreements with his church, and instead of just disagreeing and forming his own opinion and looking inward, his ego forces him to make others interpret it as he does. Please make an effort to read and understand posts before you relpy to them. The Bible doesn't say "Read the Bible, draw conclusions, and preach those conclusions instead of showing people the bible."

elaboration is sometimes required for understanding. That is why jesus taught in parables. The bible says "go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them, in the name of the father and of the sun and of the holy ghost, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you..." christians are taught to spread the gospel and convert people to christianity. whether or not you use "your notion" to elaborate on it is irrelevant, as long as the result is the same - you are winning souls to christianity.


BTW, if you guys are Christian Fundamentalists, I won't argue about this anymore. Simply because there's no changing your opinion. If you think that the devil is going to take your soul because you did some movements or spoke some words, There really isn't anything I can do to change that. If the devil exists, he's not even close to what's out there.

I'm one of the "spiritual, but not religious" guys. I spent my elementary years in a christian school, but enjoy reading and studying about all religions.

[kal]

He cannot make an object that he can't move because there is nothing that he cannot move. That would indeed make him all-powerful.

.

If there is something that God can't create, then the only hope is Michael Thau. He can create anything using CGI.

Mr Thau please, create in CGI an object that God can't move. Try to do it please.

[Shaolin Wookie]

didn't jesus also teach not to worship him, but to worship god? and before you say that jesus is god, i have to say that we're all god. 'cuz god is everywhere. and everything. and is also referred to as tao. and allah. and yahweh. etc, etc. and so even worship of satan himself is worshipping god--'cuz if it ain't, then god is not all powerful, and therefore not the supreme being.

Sounds like Spinoza. I always liked Spinoza.......

[Shaolin Wookie]

Things like The DaVinci Code aren't good sources for learning history.

As a side note.....a friend cajoled me into reading that book. I threw it down in boredom halfway through, b/c it was a carbon copy of a book written in the 80's called "Holy Blood, Holy Grail."

Hell, Brown even named Sauniere after one of the author's sources from the Priory.....

[kal]

As a side note.....a friend cajoled me into reading that book. I threw it down in boredom halfway through, b/c it was a carbon copy of a book written in the 80's called "Holy Blood, Holy Grail."

Hell, Brown even named Sauniere after one of the author's sources from the Priory.....


He also named one of the characters Leigh Teabing. The Holy Blood, Holy Grail book was written by two men called Leigh and Baigent.

[Crushing Fist]

yeah...

and they sued him



and failed


I prefer the Hiram Key and the Second Messiah myself

[Shaolin Wookie]

"and subsequent followers who came up with the nifty idea that he was the one true son of god..."

Not to harp on the whole "is religion for real" thing but I was always taught that Jesus did claim to be the son of God and claimed that he was God. Either way, the above statement seems to have a negative spin on it (which I understand if youre not religious). Like I said above, we believe what suits our purpose. Couldn't one just as easily say that they (his followers) were "convinced" that he was the son of God rather than they simply "came up" with the notion. I mean, they gave up their lives to follow him, at the very least they must have been convinced somehow to do this.



Interestingly enough, this was not consensus.....not until centuries later. The divinity of Christ was voted on at the Nicean councils. Many of the primary theologans of the era were not convinced of this. And even then, his divinity caused philsophical problems....hence the Nestorians, Arians....etc...and the only reason this was put to vote was that Constantine was sick and tired of the Christians fighting in his kingdom and stirring up **** left and right.


But even then, not all of the first generation "disciples" were convinced of the "divinity of Christ." This, in all likelihood, was the tradition of the Pauline line. If you read the book Acts, you will find that Paul and his followers were followed around and harrassed by students of the other disciples, who claimed that Paul was an outsider, a fanatic, and was teaching against what Jesus taught. There were theological squabbles in the first generation. I firmly believe this is why internal inconsistency is actually a part of Christian tradition......not some unexplainable phenomenon.

There were two traditions of the times. One tradition held Jesus to be a spiritual guide, a kind of rabinnical deconstructionist, who suggested a new, higher interpretation of scripture. This was the side upheld by Christ's "Jewish" followers, led by his "half-brother" James. The other side of the coin is Paul's. He taught that Jesus was god, in human form, and that you had to follow him or go to hell. And it is pretty well known that two of the gospels have been appended and revised--assuming that they were authentic in the first place. But most scholars surmise they were written generations after the first (original disciples). I mean, come on. We're talking about Jews being oppressed by the Romans, living under foreign rule, in an era when literacy was a mark of luxury. What's the likelihood that a bunch of fishermen and vagabonds had the ability to write down their experiences? I'm not being a ****. It's just veeeerrry unlikely. And, in all likelihood, Christ himself could not write......hence the fact we don't have the gospels according to Christ....just a little proof he's not a god.

It is interesting to note that we're all basing our opinions of the bible on a version organized by an English king approx. 400 years ago, when dogma was already part and parcel of Christian tradition. One gripe I have with common Christians is that they don't take their religion sincerely. Sincerity is everything. How many of us can read Hebrew or Greek and actually get the truth from the horse's mouth? Many scholars hold that the "Virgin Assumption" tradition is actually the product of a misinterpretation/translation for the Hebrew word for "maiden"....which in European tradition sometimes means "virgin"....but as for others, go fish...:o . Honestly, if a man or woman is going to devote their life to a particular worldview, I'd expect them to take the initiative to get a view of the world, before selecting that particular vantage from which to judge. Again, sincerity is everything. It's why I delved into hte history and wound up debunking it. Not everyone would reach my opinionated destination, but there's something in the search. Dogmatic, headstrong JDKism is rather foolish, in the short and long runs.

Now, I don't know what you guys think, but I'm of the opinion that Paul was a paranoid schizophrenic epileptic....hence the fanatical anti-Christian oppression, which turned into fanatcial pro-Christian dogma after a blinding flash of light caused him to fall off of his horse (an excellent painting by Caravaggio, by the way) and revealed God's plan. Well, that sounds like an hallucination and an epileptic seizure. I once knew a weird bipolar girl who, when not taking her anti-psychotics, would suffer the delusion that she was a druid preistess, and would then commence to write untold pages of nonsense in this persona, and basically lived a double life. She was kind of scary when not on her meds.....one side of her would completely disappear, and you had to deal with the priestess.

She was really quite religious when "sane." In a different era, she'd have been called "possessed." She acknowledged this quite often. But those darn meds worked some kind of med-fu on the demon and kept it suppressed. So, to JDK--maybe I shouldn't be so harsh, and maybe you shouldn't be so paranoid.

[Shaolin Wookie]

yeah...

and they sued him



and failed




HAHA....I didn't know that. Interesting. I always wondered how Brown got away with so much plagiarism....if you want to call it that.

It's just that the book/movie had no plot....it was basically Holy Blood, Holy grail with a car chase in the middle, and a cute french chick.

[Christopher M]

Interestingly enough, <the alleged divinity of Jesus> was not consensus.....not until centuries later...Many of the primary theologans of the era were not convinced of <Jesus' divinity>.... But even then, not all of the first generation "disciples" were convinced of the "divinity of Christ."

Sure they were. While there were numerous Christological disputes throughout the first two-thirds of the first millenium, none of the representative movements denied Jesus' divinity outright. This is a relatively recent notion. (Please offer a reference for the contrary position if you maintain it's the case.)


The divinity of Christ was voted on at the Nicean councils.

No, it wasn't. The specific nature of Christ's divinity was debated at the council. The dispute was between the Arians and the ****ousians. The former believed in a divine hierarchy with Jesus immediately below the Father. The latter, who eventually won consensus, believed that Jesus and the Father were equivalent. Neither believed that Jesus was a man. (cf. First Council of Nicaea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea), Arianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism)).


the only reason <the nature of Jesus' divinity> was put to vote was that Constantine was sick and tired of the Christians fighting

You don't think an entrenched theological dispute would ever be broached by the Christianity community unless an emperor intervenes? This doesn't seem like a very likely position, and certainly seems at odd with the fact that the Christianity community was already in the middle of heated debates on the point before Constantine ever came around.


<The notion of Jesus' divinity>, in all likelihood, was the tradition of the Pauline line. If you read the book Acts, you will find that Paul and his followers were followed around and harrassed by students of the other disciples, who claimed that Paul was an outsider, a fanatic, and was teaching against what Jesus taught. There were theological squabbles in the first generation.

I've already pointed out that none of the representative groups denied the divinity of Jesus entirely. There was certainly contention surrounding Paul's teachings: it concerned the relation of Christianity to Judaism. Paul's group upheld the notion that Christianity was distinct; that Gentiles could become Christian and were not, by this virtue, Jewish (and hence not under Jewish law). The contrary position was initially upheld by Peter, although he was soon won over by Paul. He initially saw Christianity as a continuation of Judaism and he and others had complained about sharing eating and living space with Gentiles who were not following Mosaic law. Note that none of this has anything to do with whether or not Jesus is undertsood as divince. (cf. Acts 15)


I firmly believe this is why internal inconsistency is actually a part of Christian tradition.

There's disputes in the Christian tradition because Christians argue about what they believe? Well, yes.


There were two traditions of the times. One tradition held Jesus to be a spiritual guide, a kind of rabinnical deconstructionist, who suggested a new, higher interpretation of scripture. This was the side upheld by Christ's "Jewish" followers, led by his "half-brother" James.

This is wrong. There was a competing tradition of Christianity, typically associated in retrospect with the trend we have labelled Gnosticism, which saw James as Jesus' primary disciple. However (i) it wasn't contemporary with Paul's preaching, but is, rather, essentially a fifth century movement. And (ii) it did not deny Jesus' divinity. Like the Arians, the Gnostic Christians saw Jesus as the second figure in a divine hierarchy. Rather than seeing Jesus as more human, this school actually completely denied Jesus' humanity, maintaining that his body was only an appearance and that he was actually a purely spiritual being. (van den Broek and Hanegraff's (eds.) Gnosis and Hermeticism is a good introduction to these themes; see particularly van den Broek's chapter on Gnosticism and Hermeticism in Antiquity and Helderman's commentary on the The Gospel of Truth). You seem to be conflating this movement with the aforementioned movement first championed by Peter against the Gentiles. They're completely different -- the apocrypha concerning James are Hellenic (and, as I mentioned, four centuries later). Also, the allegorical method of interpretation predated Christianity in some Jewish circles and reached its height during the early Christian era in Alexandria, at the hands of orthodox Christians (cf. Meyendorff's Byzantine Theology, Introduction and Ch 1. Byzantine Theology after Chalcedon).


The other side of the coin is Paul's. He taught that Jesus was god, in human form, and that you had to follow him or go to hell.

Again, you seem to be conflating the dispute in Acts 15 between Paul and Peter, which had nothing to do with Jesus' divinity, and the 5th century Gnostic dispute, which had nothing to do with Paul. Neither of the prevailing theologies in these disputes endorsed an exclusivist soteriology (re: "that you had to follow him or go to hell") which would not be upheld by any mainstream church for a millenium still. (Again, please offer a reference of the contrary position if you think otherwise.)


And it is pretty well known that two of the gospels have been appended and revised...

Where do you get this notion from?


But most scholars surmise they were written generations after the first (original disciples).

Most scholars surmise the New Testament was written within the first century (1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Date_of_composition)).


It is interesting to note that we're all basing our opinions of the bible on a version organized by an English king approx. 400 years ago...

No we're not. I'm certainly not, for example.


It's why I delved into hte history and wound up debunking it.

I think you need to delve a bit deeper if this is something you're interested in understanding.

[lunghushan]

The only thing I don't get, is why somebody would read the Bible, and believe that Jesus is divine and the son of God and if they sin they will go to hell and all that.

In other words ... why does anyone believe this story without any sort of proof???

[NJM]

1. I'll read better when you read the bible properly. if you're referring to what I think you are, revelation mentions a white head and hair like wool. It then says that he had feet of brass. All of that is obviously symbolic. It's not saying that he was a white guy with blond hair and black feet.



2. I've actually thought about that myself and have asked several pastors about it. They have all told me the same thing - that he sends the defiant to hell, not the ignorant. For example, you have a buddhist who HAS heard the gospel, but refuses to convert. that person will go to hell. The buddhist who had never heard the gospel and was completely ignorant of it would not.



I know that was your point - I was supporting it. you gave the daodejing vpassage and I gave something similar form the bible.



3. elaboration is sometimes required for understanding. That is why jesus taught in parables. The bible says "go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them, in the name of the father and of the sun and of the holy ghost, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you..." christians are taught to spread the gospel and convert people to christianity. whether or not you use "your notion" to elaborate on it is irrelevant, as long as the result is the same - you are winning souls to christianity.



4. I'm one of the "spiritual, but not religious" guys. I spent my elementary years in a christian school, but enjoy reading and studying about all religions.


1. You still didn't understand my post. The person said the Jesus was depicted in the PICTURES of a bible that he had, as a white guy. I said that this IDEA probably came about because of the King James version of the bible, not that it was actually IN the King James version of the bible. We all know he wasn't white, so let's leave it at that.

2. I still don't understand why an all-knowing being would send all people to hell for not believing in him. Like I said, I don't think that a conciousness with the knowlege of several billion years of time, plus all of the knowlege of the universe and more, would act so wrathfully.

3. Well, I completely dissagree with the idea that you can use your conclusions as a conversion tool, but that's just my opinion.

4. Similar story with myself, actually.

In regards to the main point of this article, there is no secret demonic pentagram in the bagua, and evil spirits will only enter your martial arts practice if you ask for them, which is what you're doing by trying to organize some sort of spiritual barrier because you fear for your own ability to fight back.

[JDK]

The only thing I don't get, is why somebody would read the Bible, and believe that Jesus is divine and the son of God and if they sin they will go to hell and all that.

In other words ... why does anyone believe this story without any sort of proof???

Great question lunghushan.

The proof you seek must be experienced. Unless the Holy Spirit draws us...we have no desire to come to God on His Terms.

Secondly...the historical account of a real Jesus that really lived, did miracles, and then Rose from the Grave..and showed himself to hundreds for 40 days after his Resurrection...is pretty strong evidence. I say tis becaue USUALLY people can spot a phoney right away...and the legend dies right there.

In Christs case...when Paul and the others were writing the New Testament..there were many, many eye witness accounts of people who had actually seen with their own eyes the things Jesus did. Any small group of them could have at any time stepped forward and declared the stories were fraudulant

They didnt ...because they couldnt.

If the religious Leaders that hated Jesus of that day ( The Pharisees & Sadducee's )could have provided accurate , documented proof that it was all a Lie..they would have! They ( and ROME at first) tried EVERYTHING to get these people to stop following this dead Jesus, They were threatened, beaten, tortured, and many were burned alive...when all they had to was recant their belief that Jesus was the Christ..but instead....went to their graves speaking and singing His Name.:(

Im not talking about the Roman Catholic "Convert or Die Crusades" that would come later...I am talking about first Century eye witnesses that could have ended this new Christianity if they wanted or were able.

They were not.

Here we are 2000 years later. talking about it..and more importantly...turn on any News Channel and WHERE is the focus of the eyes of the World been for the last 15 years or more ????? Israel and the Middle East.

Coincidence?

JDK

[Anthony]

"In other words ... why does anyone believe this story without any sort of proof???"

Good question with many answers.

I guess one point of view is that faith without proof is rewarded.

Some believe because the message is inspirational to them.

Some believe because they want to. I mean they want their existence to mean more.

Some may believe that the principles are a good way to live.

And, of course, some believe that there is proof.

Sorry if this doesn't help but there are so many reasons and combinations of reasons.

[lunghushan]

"In other words ... why does anyone believe this story without any sort of proof???"

Good question with many answers.

I guess one point of view is that faith without proof is rewarded.

Some believe because the message is inspirational to them.

Some believe because they want to. I mean they want their existence to mean more.

Some may believe that the principles are a good way to live.

And, of course, some believe that there is proof.

Sorry if this doesn't help but there are so many reasons and combinations of reasons.

I guess I just don't really understand why people believe the Bible, heaven, hell, sin and that Jesus is their savior.

Maybe I read too much fiction when I was a kid, but when it came time to be confirmed, there is this part where you have to swear you believe Christ is your savior or something.

And I was kindof like, "What?" I mean, I've gone through all this Christian school, all this Sunday School, and there's so many holes. On the one hand they say take it literally, but then how can you think literally that Christ is a loaf of bread. And of course, the parables are you supposed to only take those literally?

And then the people in the church. They'd always talk about Sunday Christians, but then after church and going to church and coming from church, it was always gossipping, judging, talking, etc. Exactly the opposite of what they were preaching in the church.

So ... ??? I really, really wanted to believe it, but I guess I just didn't believe it. So I didn't get confirmed, and the parents flipped out, judging me just like they judged the other people, only confirming my suspicions that they were among the biggest hypocrites in the world.

So ... ??? I guess I still don't get why people believe this stuff without evidence. And I don't buy the historical account being evidence because there are so many holes in it. Oh, well.

[lunghushan]

Here we are 2000 years later. talking about it..and more importantly...turn on any News Channel and WHERE is the focus of the eyes of the World been for the last 15 years or more ????? Israel and the Middle East.

Coincidence?

JDK

No, I don't think it's coincidence. Honestly I think most people will take the most convenient explanation that suits them because they don't want to have to strain their brains.

Islam vs. Christianity, both of them are religions without any proof, both of them are usually followed by people who were brought up in that religion, so when you say is it a 'coincidence', no, I don't think it's 'coincidence'. It seems like you have two brainwashed groups of people who have been at war for millennia and for some reason can't stop.

The only reason we are having this conversation at all is because evidently not everybody is so brainwashed to follow those religions -- otherwise we would still have state run religion and there would be no dissent allowed.

[Anthony]

ChristopherM:

I didn't learn any more about Mary Magdeline other than that she was a prostitute who asked Christ's forgiveness. Can you shed any light on what is being said today about her being his mistress or point me to some sources....thanks.

[lunghushan]

ChristopherM:

I didn't learn any more about Mary Magdeline other than that she was a prostitute who asked Christ's forgiveness. Can you shed any light on what is being said today about her being his mistress or point me to some sources....thanks.

PLOT SPOILER ... BOOK SPOILER ...

I think the gist of it is that they are saying the Grail legend is really because Christ married Mary Magdeline and had kids, so the Grail is his bloodline. Grail being a chalice, symbolizing feminism and fertility. The 'blood' of Christ in Christian churches is served in a chalice. The Grail was supposed to be the cup that was used at the last supper, or to collect Christ's blood when he was crucified.

They make a play of words on grail ... San Graal or Sang Raal, which could mean firstly holy grail or secondly, royal blood.

[lunghushan]

I've GOT IT!!! They should have a book or movie where they collect Christ's DNA from the cup to clone him!!!

Oh, wait ... that's already been done.

[NJM]

I've GOT IT!!! They should have a book or movie where they collect Christ's DNA from the cup to clone him!!!

Oh, wait ... that's already been done.

I saw that episode of the Outer Limits :D

[Christopher M]

Can you shed any light on what is being said today about her being his mistress or point me to some sources....thanks.

This is an idea that was introduced in Baigent and Leigh's Holy Blood, Holy Grail, repeated in a number of similar books, then popularized in Brown's The Da Vinci Code. There are some suggestions in the apocryphal Gospel of Philip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_philip) that she was particularly close to Jesus. Beyond this there has been alot of recent speculation, but it is just that. In other words, there's not really any historical reason to believe these sorts of things.

[laugarkuen]

I've GOT IT!!! They should have a book or movie where they collect Christ's DNA from the cup to clone him!!!

Oh, wait ... that's already been done.

If they cloned him several times then all the major religions could have one. You know how argumentative religious types can be :D

Think about the marketing opportunities as well :eek:

Mini Jesus in a bottle.

Real Jesus keyring.

Jesus fishing floats (they don't just float on water, they walk)

Jesus delivery systems (anytime, anywhere)

Jesus food supplies (limeted to fish and wine to start with)

Come on, add to the list. You know you want to ;)

[FuXnDajenariht]

Here we are 2000 years later. talking about it..and more importantly...turn on any News Channel and WHERE is the focus of the eyes of the World been for the last 15 years or more ????? Israel and the Middle East.

Coincidence?

JDK

lol yea, well the 2 little brats smacking each other silly in the frontrow of the airplane usually do draw the majority of the other passengers attention. mostly out of annoyance and contempt though.

[JDK]

lol yea, well the 2 little brats smacking each other silly in the frontrow of the airplane usually do draw the majority of the other passengers attention. mostly out of annoyance and contempt though.

With all due respect FuXnDajenariht, the situation goes much deeper than your simplified version. ( no offense..I like simple, you got your point across with a few words.I need to work on that on my sermons;) )

The fact is that ever since 1948 when Israel became a Nation after 1950 years of being "scattered" around the Globe....things have intensified on the World Scene ever since.

Iran ( descendants of Ismael..Abraham's son his handmaiden Hagar)
has been very open about there desire to "wipe Israel off the Map..declaring the Holocast never happened :eek: ...and that it was their duty to Allah to destroy Israel ( descendents of Issac, the child of Promise given to Abraham and Sarah , who was called the child of promise because the Lord Jesus would eventually be born through his bloodline)

Being a christian I obviously believe it to be nothing short of a miracle that Israel even exists anymore....let alone has returned to their former Land ( as the Bible accurately predicted 3500 years ago) and that World Events really are revoloving around the Middle East, here in our modern times, with all are technology and advancements....it is the Middle East Countries that dominate our thoughts , Political decisions and Newspaper Headlines :confused:

Here is a couple of Links that show the seriousness of Iran and it's allies are abut not only "pushing Israel into the Sea ..but also bringing about a New World Order, with THEM being in control of course

http://tcftalk.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?board=911&action=display&num=1169597397

FACT:-Mahmud or Mahmood, Ahmadinezhad, Ahmadi-Nejad, Ahmadi Nejad, Ahmady Nejad) (born October 28, 1956) is the sixth president of the Islamic Republic of Iran. His term began on August 3, 2005.

He is a member of the Central Council of the Islamic Society of Engineers, but he has a more powerful base inside the Alliance of Builders of Islamic Iran (Abadgaran) and is considered one of the main figures in the alliance.

FACT:-Ahmadinejad is a controversial figure, criticised for his statements agreeing with Ruhollah Khomeini that Israel should be "wiped off the map", support of Hezbollah, and controversial comments he has made about the Holocaust never really happening and the legitimacy of Israel's existence.

FACT -Ahmadinejad was the only presidential candidate who spoke out against future relations with the United States. Also, in an interview with Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting a few days before the elections, Ahmadinejad accused the United Nations of being "one-sided, He has openly opposed the veto power given to the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. In the same interview, he stated, "It is not just for a few states to sit and veto global approvals. Should such a privilege continue to exist, the Muslim world with a population of nearly 1.5 billion should be extended the same privilege." In addition, he has defended Iran's nuclear program and has accused "a few arrogant powers" of attempting to limit Iran's industrial and technological development in this and other fields.

After his election he proclaimed, "Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen and the Islamic revolution of 1384 [the current Iranian year] will, if God wills, cut off the roots of injustice in the world." He said, that "the wave of the Islamic revolution" would soon "reach the entire world."

FACT: In October 2005 Ahmadinejad gave a speech that contained antagonistic statements about Israel. According to widely published translations, he agreed with a statement he attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini that the "occupying regime" had to be removed, and referred to Israel as a "disgraceful stain [on] the Islamic world" that would be eliminated.

Ahmadinejad's comments were condemned by major Western governments, the European Union, Russia, the United Nations Security Council and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan.Egyptian, Turkish and Palestinian leaders also expressed displeasure over Ahmadinejad's remark.Canada's then Prime Minister Paul Martin said, "this threat to Israel's existence, this call for genocide coupled with Iran's obvious nuclear ambitions is a matter that the world cannot ignore."


FACT:- Ahmadinejad has been a vocal supporter of Iran's nuclear program. On January 11, 2006, Ahmadinejad announced that Iran would have peaceful nuclear technology very soon.

Ahmadinejad reportedly invited all countries to participate in Iran's nuclear project [33]. He turned down an offer by Russian president Vladimir Putin to process uranium in order for Iran to use it. In April 2006, Ahmadinejad announced that Iran had successfully refined uranium to a stage suitable for the nuclear fuel cycle. In a speech to students and academics in Mashad, he was quoted saying that Iran's conditions had changed completely as it became a nuclear state and could talk to other states from that stand.

http://tcftalk.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=911&num=1136898959

[kal]

Iran ( descendants of Ismael..Abraham's son his handmaiden Hagar)
has been very open about there desire to "wipe Israel off the Map..declaring the Holocast never happened :eek: ...and that it was their duty to Allah to destroy Israel ( descendents of Issac, the child of Promise given to Abraham and Sarah , who was called the child of promise because the Lord Jesus would eventually be born through his bloodline)

Are Iranians actually considered descendants of Ishmael? I know that he is the father of the Arab people. Although Iran is a Muslim country, the Persians aren't Arabs.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think you need to delve a bit deeper if this is something you're interested in understanding.

HAHA....I understand why you're miffed. I kind of summed up my opinion of religion with a propagandistic attitude. My mood on the subject often switches from a scholarly attitude, to one of complete and thorough disdain for it.

It's something I've researched nearly every day of my life. I've read all those books and more. I've gotten all my information straight from the horse's mouth. Funny, when you leave the church, it never really leaves you. When I call it branwashing, you might roll your eyes. But it is brainwashing....b/c the church targets children, using parents as the agents. When I wrestled with religion and gave it up at fifteen (yeah, I was a precocious reader), my parents nearly kicked me out of the house and disowned me---very religious family with several preachers/missionaries in it.

You're reasoning from the position of someone still in, yet dedicated to thinking about the issue--I respect that, a lot (b/c I think there's still a possiblity you, too, might decide to debunk it). I'm reasoning from someone out, miffed at having been sucked in by childhood brainwashing (adhering to parental models of proper behavior), yet thoroughly disgusted by Christianity's bloody history, and its lack of regard for "real" thinking. (let's not address this issue, here). The best books written on the subject of religion were issued by Nietzsche, Fuerbach, and Celsus. Although I never really thought of those books as "religious" books when I was younger, they've taught me a lot. For instance: it is perfectly okay to take up arms against a religion that browbeats little children into believing perfect nonsense, which might make them neurotic, ashamed of themselves, and make them hate the world (religion made me a very unpleasant person).

Anyways.....I don't care anymore for all the heresies and heresiarchs in history, since I basically deny the primary tenet of the religion--that a man could be a god. It's quite ridiculous.:D

And I do think that it took an emperor to solve the bloody squabbles the Christians were involved in. Need I mention the Crusades (all of them.....including Albigensian and Children's Crusade [a particularly delicious gem in Christian history]), the Inquisition, the whole Protestant/Catholic ordeal, witch burnings, etc. which have plagued European history? Various kings took stances against the Holy Roman Empire and forced established religion into it's current state of reign--that of the spirit. Thank the fates for Democracy. Democracy has made the world, and religion, much kinder.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here we are 2000 years later. talking about it..and more importantly...turn on any News Channel and WHERE is the focus of the eyes of the World been for the last 15 years or more ????? Israel and the Middle East.

Coincidence?

JDK

Nope. No coincidence. If we'd have given Christians M-16's, Ak-47's, ballistic missiles, shoulder-mounted rocketlaunchers, and explosives in their heyday, the same results would have ensued. Hell, they did enough comparable damage with a torch and a sword.....And newscasters would have profited by covering those stories. As a curious side-note....fluctuations in the state of Paris Hilton's puzzy gets just as much coverage, if not more.

The thing is, we've basically given a stunted community reminiscent of the sixth century access to twenty-first century weapon technology.

Has nothing to do with religion.....wait, yeah it does. Only goes to prove that religions do nothing to "improve" people. Christendom had its share of Hussein's, and in the long run their secular rule curbed the hold of religion over the people. Though detestable individuals, who often espoused radical tactics resulting in bloodshed, the end result was a curbing influence on religion's political sway, which benefited the people. Hence, you're not now being taxed half your income for the glory of the Holy Roman State. You can give if you want to. Nowadays, instead of being oppressed by papal law, taxed penniless by penurious agents of its wealth, or threatened with rack, flail, prison, fire, or rod, you can believe "if you want to."

One of the benefits of Democracy.

But Democracy is something that is achieved. You can't throw it on a sixth century civilization and expect....*poof* for everything to gel.

Let's not start discoursing on the state of Iraq--there's another thread for that. I was only arguing with this statement by JDK.;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

ChristopherM:

I didn't learn any more about Mary Magdeline other than that she was a prostitute who asked Christ's forgiveness. Can you shed any light on what is being said today about her being his mistress or point me to some sources....thanks.

This is a veeeeeerrrry old tradition. It's not new or anything like that. It's always been considered taboo, and the Church often tried to eradicate any texts that popped up with this conclusion.

In all reality, it is a depiction of a "historical" Jesus, trying desperately to keep him in some kind of cultural context, while Christianity constantly tries to divorce him from his culture and political climate (one of constant upheaval and rebellion against the Roman occupation....where two other men named "Jesus" [curious sidenote] started insurrections against the Romans, one of whom was also crucified.:eek: ). In such contexts, Jews often dig in their heels and stick to tradition stronger than ever--hence, the marriage laws, etc.

Many gnostic gospels hint at this association. You won't find them in the bible, because the authors did not pretend to write in the guise of the 12 disciples.....okay, well some did.:o

[Shaolin Wookie]

We were talking for a sec about the Bible and its translations....edits....etc...

During Christ's crucifixion, the story goes that the Jews were given the chance to save Jesus. Instead, they shouted that they wanted "Barabbas" given to them instead. Hence, the criminal was saved, and Jesus was crucified.

Well, in the original biblical records, Barabbas' full name is given as "Jesus Barabbas."

Well, the church edited this out in nearly every edition in every language copied after the original. Only a couple of years ago did one or two Bible printers go back to the original, giving his name as JEsus Barabbas.

Why the two millenia edit, you ask?

Barabbas is really the combination of two hebrew words: "bar" and "abbas." You'll often see "bar" appear in the Bible as a designation of "son of". As for "abba".....you know it. It means "father".

So, the crowd tells Pilate that they want Jesus, Son of the Father to be pardoned instead of JEsus Christ.....and one Jesus is crucified in the place of the other Jesus. Well, that's certainly a curious incidence of multiple-personality syndrome, if I do say so myself....which I just did. It's also why several traditions arose that Christ survived the crucifixion....and it would explain (conspiracy theory style) how the tomb could be empty---if an impostor was crucified and the original was pardoned (he'd have a definite interest in proving his divinity by rolling a stone and stealing a body....if this was not in fact a hotly debated issue.)

The bible is riddled with these issues. They have nothing to do with faith. They're in interpretation/editing. I still laugh when reading about Joshua and the battle which suspended the sun at its zenith. That could only happen in a geocentric system. Too bad we live in a solar-centric one.:eek:

:D Jesus, son of the Father...if that's not a name for Christ, I don't know what is.:)

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzJuz2qVz_E&NR

[splinter]

I can't pass up an opportunity to point people to the one true religion:

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

[Shaolin Wookie]

HAHAHA.....I started reading that Flying Spaghetti Monster article, and thought, man this is cheezy.....

But when I got to the chart that related Global Warming to a decrease in pirates, I just about lost my **** mind.:D

[laugarkuen]

lmao

That site is fantastic. :D

[Dim Wit Mak]

http://www.gmau.org/constitution.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ff4christ/System.html


Havnt done enough research on this...but at least this is a start.

I have to believe there are others like me who love the TMA's...but do not want to open any doorways for the enemy to get a foothold in our lives.

Can Anyone out there identify with me?

JDK

Welcome to the world of Wolf Kung Fu. How does it feel to get ripped by the pack? Remember that those who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. II Timothy 3:12.

Chistrianity and martial arts DO blend. I have gotten so much bad advice by so many people, both well meaning and those with bad intentions, that much of the time I just keep my own council. You would do well to do this with Christian martial arts organizations. Do your homework and decide for yourself. If you want to send me a private message, I will tell you the one I belong to, and am very happy with.

I don't know a whole lot about the ones you mentioned except what I see from visiting their web sites.

[lunghushan]

Welcome to the world of Wolf Kung Fu. How does it feel to get ripped by the pack? Remember that those who live ...


I have to say that honestly, I dislike Christians as much as Muslims. Same thing, only a different flavor. Why can't you just keep your religion to yourself?

It's kindof like coming onto a kung fu board and saying that Northern Shaolin is the best and everybody else are the enemy and wolves, etc ... bottom line is you are somehow thinking your are special when in fact you are just another human.

[JDK]

I have to say that honestly, I dislike Christians as much as Muslims. Same thing, only a different flavor. Why can't you just keep your religion to yourself?

It's kindof like coming onto a kung fu board and saying that Northern Shaolin is the best and everybody else are the enemy and wolves, etc ... bottom line is you are somehow thinking your are special when in fact you are just another human.

I cant speak for others Lunghushan...but I am not special....I a regular sinner like everyone else...the only difference is I accepted God's offer of love 30 years ago...and my life, thinking, and values have not been the same since.

But I still sin! I Goof up often!:o I am as imperfect as anyone!

Asking us to " keep our religion to ourselves" is unfair and un-American.
Would I make the same or similiar request if you if , let's say I couldnt stand your Screen name???? Or your religious views? :confused:

I dont have to agree with your views..but they dont anger or annoy me. Have you considered my earlier post asking WHY the mention of Jesus, the God of the Bible is so offensive, when tolerance is the battle cry of the day? Why is it OK to be anything...OTHER than a Christian ???? We havnt blown up buildings, declared that Israel should be wiped off the Map, made our women 3rd class citizens and trained our Youth to hate an entire race of people ?????

Again...not condeming or acting "Holier-than-thou" ( I Hate the actions of those type of people...but I realize they are just doing what they have learned, all I can do is pray for them and ask God to show them true humility as Jesus taught and lived.)

....just something to ponder.

<a href="http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gmaulogo4yo6.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9657/gmaulogo4yo6.th.gif" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>

JDK
( Truley a Student Forever)

[NJM]

Again...not condeming or acting "Holier-than-thou" ( No I Hate the actions of those type of people...but I realize they are just doing what they have learned, all I can do is pray for them and ask God to show them true humility as Jesus taught and lived.)


Lol hypocrite.

Response: how is that hypocritical? I was just saying that I would pray for them and I never said I was better than them!

Rebuttal: But the fact that you need to pray for anyone, in your sense, implies that they are somehow lost to something that you understand. This is rude.

Why do you think that the devil will attack you through CMA? Who told you this? If god is always protecting you, why the heck do you NEED A UNION FOR CHRISTIAN MARTIAL ARTISTS???!??! If you're a christian, you're already protected, right? At least MORE protected. So do you not trust enough in the power of your individual humanity to resist evil? I just don't get why you can't stay out of how your western view has so innacurrately deemed "the spiritual aspects of CMA and Qigong." WTF? You obviously don't get the Chinese religious mentality. Just explain why you need to make a Christian Martial Arts union if all of the members were going to be Christians already?!??!?!

[Christopher M]

HAHA....I understand why you're miffed.

I'm not at all miffed.


It's something I've researched nearly every day of my life. I've read all those books and more.

No, you haven't. If you had you wouldn't be plainly incorrect about every single thing you've said. If you had studied the field you'd be able to provide references from which each of your statements are coming.

I don't know why you're pretending to be an authority on something you're not. I don't know why, when confronted with this fact, you just retreat deeper into this pretension. It seems rather silly.

[lunghushan]

Asking us to " keep our religion to ourselves" is unfair and un-American.
Would I make the same or similiar request if you if , let's say I couldnt stand your Screen name???? Or your religious views? :confused:

I dont have to agree with your views..but they dont anger or annoy me. Have you considered my earlier post asking WHY the mention of Jesus, the God of the Bible is so offensive, when tolerance is the battle cry of the day? Why is it OK to be anything...OTHER than a Christian ???? We havnt blown up buildings, declared that Israel should be wiped off the Map, made our women 3rd class citizens and trained our Youth to hate an entire race of people ?????


Actually, IMHO you are pretty much guilty of hating.

I was on the news watching some Muslim guy say he wanted to instill Sharia law in Britain and on the entire world, and I came on this board and found your anti-CMA rhetoric.

If you just said, "I would like to find a Christian martial arts school." Then that would be cool. But instead you said that CMA is the enemy. Just like the Muslims saying the West is the enemy.

It is perfectly FINE for you to be Christian, IMHO. It is perfectly FINE for people to be Muslim, IMHO. It is NOT fine for people to say that others are the enemy, or evil, or somehow inferior to them based upon religion.

Do you understand the difference? It's pretty simple.



I have to believe there are others like me who love the TMA's...but do not want to open any doorways for the enemy to get a foothold in our lives.

Can Anyone out there identify with me?

JDK

This kind of rhetoric, IMHO, is hate speech. It's pretty simple. I dislike hate speech. I don't mind Christians or Muslims that practice whatever they do and leave others alone. But I don't like people labeling others the enemy based upon their religion.

You know, I watch Christian television from time to time. And a common theme right now in Christian television is that Christianity is under attack in the United States.

Well, it is NOT under attack. What is under attack is your promoting your religion and trying to pass laws upon other people based upon your religion, outlawing abortion, trying to outlaw gay marriage based upon your religion.

You are promoting your religion as law for the secular world, and THAT is what people don't like. Your religion is NOT under attack. Islam is NOT under attack. What people don't like and are fighting against is you trying to force your religion down their throats by making it the law of the land. The 10 commandments on a public building, Christmas trees in public buildings where there are no other displays from other religions, prayers in school where they don't have prayers for other religions ... all of this is promoting your religion above others.

Even the Army has Chaplains from multiple major religions. That's what people want is separation from Church and State. This is because it is unfair to have one religion being put into priority above other religions. You wouldn't like it as a Christian if there was Muslim law, would you? Muslims don't like Christian law.

Therefore, we have to have a system that has secular law and doesn't put one religion above another.

[lunghushan]

I mean, basically I just don't get it. There is NO proof for your religion. There is no video tape of any of it, nothing but a written account that could easily have been fabricated or doctored especially since it has been shown historically to date many years after the supposed life of the person you are writing about.

So if you want to practice or believe something there is no proof for, then why would you promote it over something else there is no proof for? Why would Christians promote their religions over Islam? It is totally irrational.

So in our society we have a separation of church and state, so that there is no promotion of one religion over another so you are free to practice your religion. Otherwise, you could just as easily be persecuted if, say, Islam became the dominant religion. Get it?

So if you promote your religion, call others the enemy, say abortionists are promoting murder and gay marriage is sinful and should be outlawed, and others fight that.

It is not that they are attacking your religion. They are attacking your promoting your religion above others. They are fighting against your trying to break the separation between church and state. They are fighting against you trying to break everything that people have been working for in the modern world.

Which, ironically, is something YOU want too. Would you like there to be Sharia law and to be persecuted so you couldn't read your Bible? No, you would not.

Therefore, and this is even a quote from the Bible, "All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them."

Therefore, unless you want people to start labeling you evil and the enemy, then perhaps you should not label them evil and the enemy.

If you do not want to be attacked, then perhaps you should not attack. The crap you spew on your website about pagans is nonsense. There might be some pagans who do bad things, but just because some do doesn't mean they all do.

[Dim Wit Mak]

I have to say that honestly, I dislike Christians as much as Muslims. Same thing, only a different flavor. Why can't you just keep your religion to yourself?

It's kindof like coming onto a kung fu board and saying that Northern Shaolin is the best and everybody else are the enemy and wolves, etc ... bottom line is you are somehow thinking your are special when in fact you are just another human.

It is a fact that we are all just human beings. I have never believed I was superior or inferior to anyone else. I am just a sinner who came to Jesus for salvation.

[lunghushan]

It is a fact that we are all just human beings. I have never believed I was superior or inferior to anyone else. I am just a sinner who came to Jesus for salvation.

The bottom line here is that Jesus came to the Jews. He preached against intolerance. He preached against persecution. He said, "let he who has not sinned throw the first stone." "All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them." "do not pluck the mote from another’s eye, but to look to the beam in your own." (paraphrasing)

Did he say, "Go around judging everybody as evil and satanic if they're not Christian?"

Did he say, "Go around and make sure all the laws of the land are Christian laws because no other religion is any good?"

Did he say, "Find fault in everyone but overlook the faults in yourself?"

No, he didn't say those things. Therefore, I think that is the problem here. Christians aren't even following their own religion. At least you can't accuse the Islamic people of hypocrisy. Terrorism yes, but hipocrisy no.

[lunghushan]

Anyways, I told you that you shouldn't get me started... I had to endure years of this hypocritical crap growing up.

But at least if you want to be preaching religion you better follow your own fricking religion.

[Ravenshaw]

I dont have to agree with your views..but they dont anger or annoy me. Have you considered my earlier post asking WHY the mention of Jesus, the God of the Bible is so offensive, when tolerance is the battle cry of the day? Why is it OK to be anything...OTHER than a Christian ???? We havnt blown up buildings, declared that Israel should be wiped off the Map, made our women 3rd class citizens and trained our Youth to hate an entire race of people ?????

Their mention isn't offensive. It's when they are used to justify intolerance that people get irate. For example, the people who harass planned parenthood employees and clients in the name of god. Or when people harass gays in the name of god. Etc...

And Christians have committed many crimes of hate and war in the past and today that don't need to be recounted.

I don't think all Christians are bad. I just don't think you've been fed correct information regarding the "occult" of CMA. Check sources and do research. The Christian Coalition and Christian newsletters, etc. are too biased to be trusted without strong facts backing them up.

[Dim Wit Mak]

The bottom line here is that Jesus came to the Jews. He preached against intolerance. He preached against persecution. He said, "let he who has not sinned throw the first stone." "All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them." "do not pluck the mote from another’s eye, but to look to the beam in your own." (paraphrasing)

Did he say, "Go around judging everybody as evil and satanic if they're not Christian?"

Did he say, "Go around and make sure all the laws of the land are Christian laws because no other religion is any good?"

Did he say, "Find fault in everyone but overlook the faults in yourself?"

No, he didn't say those things. Therefore, I think that is the problem here. Christians aren't even following their own religion. At least you can't accuse the Islamic people of hypocrisy. Terrorism yes, but hipocrisy no.

Your points are well taken. We Christians need to examine ourselves often. Sometimes I have received better treatment from people who have no pretext of religion than from some so called "Christians".

[MasterKiller]

We havnt blown up buildings
You just blew up Iraq.


declared that Israel should be wiped off the Map
That's because X-tains CREATED the map.


made our women 3rd class citizens
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Timothy 2:11-14).

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their husbands in every thing" (Ephesians 5:22-24). "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God" (1 Corinthians 11:3). "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord" (Colossians 3:18).

"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the Lord by thy estimation. And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary. And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above, if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female, ten shekels" (Leviticus 27:1-7)

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out onto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city . . . But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die . . . For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her" (Deuteronomy 22:23-27).


and trained our Youth to hate an entire race of people ?????
Right. They are trained to hate everyone who isn't X-tain. That's a lot better. (Jesus Camp, anyone?)

[qiphlow]

buddha said: work out your own salvation with diligence
*****************
jesus cannot "save" anyone--the individual has to initiate the "salvation" process
*****************
i cannot erase anyone's karma, i can only work for my own benefit or harm
*****************
all the preachers in the world cannot do anything to influence what happens to another human being after that human being passes from this life. the individual's own actions only will determine his or her fate.
*****************

[MasterKiller]

http://www.eveningservice.com/Video

[splinter]

http://www.eveningservice.com/Video

OMG. Is that a joke? From the video alone, I might've thought it was tongue in cheek, but the rest of the sight looks legit.

[The Willow Sword]

Oh boy a christian martial arts union. I have visions of Tent revivals where boys between 18-23 are breaking boards for tha lord. I also have visions of the "Power team", Remember those guys? They came to Austin once and i think they were laughed right out of town. They were these steroid hopped up junkie gym rats who would rip apart phone books and break ice over their head and other things and shout out things like " the power of the lord the power of the word, etc etc etc.
To combine martial arts with christianity like it is some decent amalgamation is really quite suprising to me. Christianity has this message of "Turn the other cheek" and then goes to say " and eye for an eye"(great contradiction there dont ya think?) Jesus teaches love and basically loving your enemy and then John the baptist is all hell fire and brimstone.

There are many glaring contradictions to a persons religious life and their normal everday life and it seems to me that when you profess to be a good christian and wear that faith on your sleeve for everyone to see and THEN you mix in fighting arts to further your hypocracy,LOL,it just makes one look more like a fool and i have to sit back and chuckle at it all.
Yes you have a right to start whatever organization you wish and go forth with it in any manner you choose. But please people lets throw some common sense in to the mix here and make the religious part of your life a private one and not wear it on your sleeve for all to see. I would think that if you are a hardcore martial artist and you profess to be a christian then i think you are cheating christianty. Of course who really follows their faith to a "T"? anyone anyone?

are you part of an organization of religion because you really have a deep level faith or are you just like most who blindly follow something because that is what everyone else follows, or maybe you had it shoved down your throat at an early age and you are imprisioned within the context of your own upbringing? Or maybe its the "Cool" thing to say that "Hey i love god and love Jesus". Who are you kidding?
So can you really mix a faith and a religion such as christianity with that of chinese taoist or japanese zen fighting arts? seems to me that you are also cheating the art you study by only utilizing the parts in fighting that you like to suit yourself, just as you might utilize the parts of the religion you follow and discard everything else.

Peace,TWS

[Anthony]

"........if an impostor was crucified and the original was pardoned"

Well, now I know what the next movie will be.


"I dont have to agree with your views..but they dont anger or annoy me. Have you considered my earlier post asking WHY the mention of Jesus, the God of the Bible is so offensive, when tolerance is the battle cry of the day? Why is it OK to be anything...OTHER than a Christian ???? "

In general, in my experience, people who are not religious have some sort of vendetta against it. I mean, if I don't like ice cream, for instance, I don't necessarily hate it. For non-believers, religion is usually a conspiracy, mind control, evil, a hoax.....etc. But I agree with you that Christianity is picked on more than the other religions.

"There is no video tape of any of it, nothing but a written account that could easily have been fabricated or doctored especially since it has been shown historically to date many years after the supposed life of the person you are writing about."

I was taught that the Apostles did not write the gospels until they were in their old age probably because of the realization that the second coming was not going to happen anytime soon and therefore the "news" had to be recorded and passed down. And, I know for a fact that they didn't have video cameras back then :)

"I had to endure years of this hypocritical crap growing up."

Look, I wouldn't blame any religion based on the misrepresentation of it by men throughout history up until today. That's a superficial reason to me. Like judging Islam by a few terrorists. Men will corrupt organizations, parents can be hipocrites, priests can sin. I think you have to look past that.

Also, I wanna say thanx to those who responded to my questions above.

[lunghushan]

Look, I wouldn't blame any religion based on the misrepresentation of it by men throughout history up until today. That's a superficial reason to me. Like judging Islam by a few terrorists. Men will corrupt organizations, parents can be hipocrites, priests can sin. I think you have to look past that.


Last I checked, nowhere in nature or the universe is there written a Bible. Religion is a complete and utter fabrication by men, for men, of men, used by men, etc.

So I'm sorry if I label people who claim to follow a religion hypocrites if they don't actually follow it, but that label fits pretty well. There is no 'pure' religion. It's a fabrication of people.

And I've only met a couple of Christians who even seem to make an attempt at following the Gospels. Therefore, I think that the majority of Christians are hypocrites.

[NJM]

enabling of solid theologically conservative Christians to associate themselves with a truly Christ exalting martial arts organization without being yoked together with unbelievers and unbelieving philosophies.

That's from GMAU.org, the website you first listed, JKD. Tell me, how is that not trying to act superior? Get this; the only purpose of the quoted sentence is so that other people view you as a christian right off the bat, and won't "yoke you together" with "unbelievers." Well, despite the total arrogance of this, why would any true Christian care what other people think? God knows you're a Christian, right? Or are you really just trying to prove your faith to other mortals...

[lunghushan]

That's from GMAU.org, the website you first listed, JKD. Tell me, how is that not trying to act superior? Get this; the only purpose of the quoted sentence is so that other people view you as a christian right off the bat, and won't "yoke you together" with "unbelievers." Well, despite the total arrogance of this, why would any true Christian care what other people think? God knows you're a Christian, right? Or are you really just trying to prove your faith to other mortals...

He wants to feel 'special' and he's in the 'ministry' so he has to gain followers (that's what the ministry is, is trying to brainwash other people).

If he kept to himself he wouldn't be 'ministering'.

[Anthony]

Lungushan, I don't have any problem with what you believe....you don't have to be sorry.

My only point was not to let superficial reasons cloud your (or anyone's) viewpoint because you'd be doing yourself a disservice. There are tons of A-holes in martial arts are there not.


"He wants to feel 'special' and he's in the 'ministry' so he has to gain followers (that's what the ministry is, is trying to brainwash other people)."

If this discussion doesn't stay civil then it will become pointless and you'll all be wasting your time.

[lunghushan]

Lungushan, I don't have any problem with what you believe....you don't have to be sorry.

My only point was not to let superficial reasons cloud your (or anyone's) viewpoint because you'd be doing yourself a disservice. There are tons of A-holes in martial arts are there not.


"He wants to feel 'special' and he's in the 'ministry' so he has to gain followers (that's what the ministry is, is trying to brainwash other people)."

If this discussion doesn't stay civil then it will become pointless and you'll all be wasting your time.

It's not superficial or being uncivil. Given the evidence, one can only assume that the reason JDK brought this discussion on here was to recruit others or somehow put down CMA. Otherwise he wouldn't have brought the stuff of 'the enemy', etc., up here.

Given the fact that he's in the 'ministry' as he put it, one can only assume that he is recruiting.

I'd say the same thing to people putting up pro military propaganda. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that rogue is likely a military recruiter but unfortunately there's not enough evidence to pin him to it yet -- unlike JDK he has not posted a website.

[wiz cool c]

Christian Martial Arts Union is for ****s plain and simple.

[Dim Wit Mak]

"The Enemy" is a proper noun for Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, the fallen archangel of the worship angels who wants to bring about the destruction of mankind. For someone who doesn't believe in him, the whole notion is ridiculous.

For those who do believe that he exists, the conviction is deeply held and unshakable.

Even for those who despise Christians, to understand them, that other person must perceive that the Christian hates what Lucifer tries to do to them and to other people. A true Christian desires that others life a life free of the horrible things that Satan doess. It is a form of love.

It is good to understand the beliefs and motivations of those who disagree with us. This understanding can lead to a more productive dialogue.

[SevenStar]

buddha said: work out your own salvation with diligence
*****************
jesus cannot "save" anyone--the individual has to initiate the "salvation" process
*****************
i cannot erase anyone's karma, i can only work for my own benefit or harm
*****************
all the preachers in the world cannot do anything to influence what happens to another human being after that human being passes from this life. the individual's own actions only will determine his or her fate.
*****************

Technically, jesus does do the saving. the only initiation process is asking him to save you. Once that is done, you are forgiven for everything. Provided that you repent, you are also forgiven of all future deeds as well. The bible has several people who engaged in very sinful activity, yet the bible says they died as holy men. One of them was sleeping with his daughter, if I remember right.

[AJM]

I was hoping for vids of whip the money changers fu.

[SevenStar]

That's from GMAU.org, the website you first listed, JKD. Tell me, how is that not trying to act superior? Get this; the only purpose of the quoted sentence is so that other people view you as a christian right off the bat, and won't "yoke you together" with "unbelievers." Well, despite the total arrogance of this, why would any true Christian care what other people think? God knows you're a Christian, right? Or are you really just trying to prove your faith to other mortals...

I can't remember, but I think I touched on this elsewhere. Christians are not supposed to put themselves in a position to associate with "worldy" people, particularly within marriage - "be ye not equally yoked in the spirit." I guess in a sense you can look at it as superiority complex, as christians are supposed to associate with fellow christians, and hopefully convert non-christians to christianity. It's not so much about caring what others think, but protection of the soul. If you are in pursuit of a holy life, living by the Word, what benefit do you get from hanging around atheists? None. They cannot help you live a more godly lifestyle. They may be more inclined to engage in activities that a christian should not. THAT is why there is a delineation.

[lunghushan]

"The Enemy" is a proper noun for Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, the fallen archangel of the worship angels who wants to bring about the destruction of mankind. For someone who doesn't believe in him, the whole notion is ridiculous.

For those who do believe that he exists, the conviction is deeply held and unshakable.

Even for those who despise Christians, to understand them, that other person must perceive that the Christian hates what Lucifer tries to do to them and to other people. A true Christian desires that others life a life free of the horrible things that Satan doess. It is a form of love.


No, I was raised Christian and we never used the Evengelical 'the enemy'. It wasn't like that. There was Satan and he was the deceiver, but not 'the enemy'. Evangelicals use a different thing, and they're much more into labeling others as evil to gain followers. That, IMHO, is hate speech.

I've worked on a lot of teams at work that raise morale by calling others 'the enemy' and lowering them to subhumans. It's pretty typical human behavior and what they use to get people to kill others in war.

[SevenStar]

Lol hypocrite.

Response: how is that hypocritical? I was just saying that I would pray for them and I never said I was better than them!

Rebuttal: But the fact that you need to pray for anyone, in your sense, implies that they are somehow lost to something that you understand. This is rude.

Why do you think that the devil will attack you through CMA? Who told you this? If god is always protecting you, why the heck do you NEED A UNION FOR CHRISTIAN MARTIAL ARTISTS???!??! If you're a christian, you're already protected, right? At least MORE protected. So do you not trust enough in the power of your individual humanity to resist evil? I just don't get why you can't stay out of how your western view has so innacurrately deemed "the spiritual aspects of CMA and Qigong." WTF? You obviously don't get the Chinese religious mentality. Just explain why you need to make a Christian Martial Arts union if all of the members were going to be Christians already?!??!?!

Why do alcoholics join AA? Why do people join fraternities, become masons, etc? The collective. there is strength in numbers. A christian fellowshipping with other christians in whatever environment is less prone to any outside temptaion, whatever it may be.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't know why you're pretending to be an authority on something you're not. I don't know why, when confronted with this fact, you just retreat deeper into this pretension. It seems rather silly.

Thank you.

I always consider it a compliment when Christians call me pretentious and silly.:D

[laugarkuen]

Thank you.

I always consider it a compliment when Christians call me pretentious and silly.:D

I'm not a christian but I'm happy to call you pretentious and silly if you want ;)

[SevenStar]

Why is it OK to be anything...OTHER than a Christian ???? We havnt blown up buildings, declared that Israel should be wiped off the Map, made our women 3rd class citizens and trained our Youth to hate an entire race of people ?????


dude... christians have been among the BIGGEST killers of mankind. During the crusades, they slew hundreds, maybe thousands of muslims - the defenseless women and children as well.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you had studied the field you'd be able to provide references from which each of your statements are coming.

I'm not really responding to your challenge of my qualifications. Technically speaking, I'm not qualified to make these statements, because I don't work in the field of biblical archaeology.

But I am able to formulate my own opinions.

Some of my favorite books on this subject (not ranked, just listed):

1. The Holy Babble.....uh, I mean Bible.:p One needs nothing more to prove the logical, historical, moral fallacies of Christianity than this piece of remarkable.....well, I don't know what the **** it is. I didn't need anything more than this remarkable piece of..........to decide to overturn its entire theology and morality. Its history? Well, I always loved the Crusades, and anything on the Albigensian Crusade.....or anything involving the Languedoc during hte pivotal periods of heresy and heresy-suppression. My investigations into the matter of religion through research was a byproduct of this decision.....simply to find out why other people left, why anyone in their right mind might believe in it (besides the whole brainwashing thing), and how it has survived.

2. [I]James, the Brother of Jesus--Robert Eisenman (I'm only going to list this one book by Eisenman, but they're all top-notch in my opinion.....thanks to him we have access to the Dead Sea Scrolls:cool: ). It's a mammoth tome filled with historical analyses, based on contemporary sectarian movements and contemporary historical analysis. It especially focuses in on the whole James "half-brother" relation to Christianity. Plus, he, more than anyone, gives a picture of the chaotic political climate of the times.

3. Elaine Pagels....again, any of her books. I think they're okay...not quite "great." But informative nonetheless.

4. Caesar's Messiah. This book is pure propaganda with a completely ridiculous conclusion, and really should never be taken seriously...and yet, I loooooove it. I find it hilarious, and it only goes to show that the Babble's "history" can be used to prove anything. Still, some of his points are very valid--others are out there, man. That thing about "fishers of men" and the battle at Galilee where Jews were drawn from the waters and beheaded---that had me laughing for days.

5. Josephus.....how can you not like Josephus? He called the Romans infidels, but quickly turned coat and deified Vespasian when threatened with death. Sabbatai Zevi, anyone? (:p )...if you don't know ole Sabbatai...do some research. I'm sure you'll find it interesting.:D There are Jesuses in his histories....but they're political rebels (terrorists)....no mention of the Christ cult, though.

6. Dead Sea Scrolls.....and all the Gnostic gospels. They're strange, mystical, and representative of many different schools of thought in the early years of Christianity. My fav. when I was Christian was the Gospel of St. Thomas. Now I don't really like any of them...but they are certainly informative.

7. The Cheese and the Worms. Okay, this isn't a religious book, in a sense. But it give a picture of what religion meant to the layman 500 years ago in Italy. Which was.....really friggin' WEIRD!!!!

8. Tribus Impostoribus....Traite des Trois Imposteurs. I had to search to high heaven to find a copy of this....then hit the motherload at the UGA library 2 years ago, found 3 different folios from three different eras in the original french (I read just enough French/Picard to slog through 'em), and an English translation. Photocopied them all for my own personal collection. :D Cannot be ignored, as this was the seminal text in biblical potshotting (my made up word) throughout history. It was destroyed every time it popped back up, and has been attributed to countless authors (its later manifestation attributed notably to Spinoza).

9. THomas Paine, Age of Reason. Read it. Learn it. Love it.

10. Celsus. On the True Doctrine. The first and greatest critique of Christianity. Also the reason I refer to Christians as barbarians.:D :p

11. Spinoza. I looooooovvve Spinoza. Yeah, I'm an atheist, and some called him one (wrongly, as he was more agnostic), but his analysis of religion was remarkable. One of those guys that paved the way for bibilical deconstruction.

12. Fuerbach. The Essence of Christianity. Fantastic examination of Christianity.

13. NIETZSCHE!!!!!!! He's crazy, angry, and fed up with backwards Christian morality. I never used to consider him an authority on religion because of his tone. But I've come around to it since. "Will to Power" and "The Anti-Christ" were truly great books......:cool:

14. BRITTO!!! (a.k.a. Pelagius). A guy I admired during that period of serious questioning in matters of religion. I managed to track down a rare examination he had executed on St. Paul.....which was rare back then. Nowadays you can find many books published based solely on Pelagius and his writings. I own many of them.:o

15. Averroes. Tahafut al-Tahafut (Incoherence of the Incoherence). Not a Christian critique...but a muslim one of Islaam. One of the great religious philsophers taking on al-Ghazali's evisceration of the Greeks/esp. Aristotle.


These are just a few of my favorites. I couldn't possibly list them all in one post, and I'm sure nobody is interested. But for those who are, including yourself, they're some good books to read, in my opinion.

But as I said: you don't need anything more than the Holy Babble to decide to give up religion on intellectual and historical grounds. I didn't, anyways.

[Shaolin Wookie]

WHY the mention of Jesus, the God of the Bible is so offensive, when tolerance is the battle cry of the day? Why is it OK to be anything...OTHER than a Christian ???? We havnt blown up buildings, declared that Israel should be wiped off the Map, made our women 3rd class citizens and trained our Youth to hate an entire race of people ?????


In short:

WHY the mention of Jesus, the God of the Bible is so offensive, when tolerance is the battle cry of the day?

But not the battle cry of the past (up until the twentieth century or so, so we're basing this on the "believe or die" credo, recently rehashed in shape and form by Puff Daddy and his "vote or die"):D . And most of us don't like the fact that this "toleration" includes public condemnation of non-christian personas, the outright denial of scientific endeavor (or, assimilation to it [which is more offensive] while restructuring it.....Kansas, for instance), the brainwashing of little children, and the whole concept of Hell (Very much the icon of Toleration, don't you think?). How 'bout toleration for abortion? How 'bout toleration for suicide? The "tolerance" you speak of is "tolerance" of things "permitted" by a very "intolerant" and morally closeminded group.

Why is it OK to be anything...OTHER than a Christian ????

B/c according to Christians, it's not okay to be anything other than a Christian.....at least in the long run. Just remember JDK....you were born an atheist, and had to be edumacated in the Christian ways.

We havnt blown up buildings....

Oklahoma, silly.
The Murrah Federal Building...if I remember correctly.

...declared that Israel should be wiped off the Map...

No, but as for the inhabitants of said country.....:o (note: should be your expression).

...made our women 3rd class citizens... :confused: :eek: :D

This is friggin' ridiculous. Read it again. Then again. Then again. Seriously, dude.....:D You're beating the Muslims by a whopping 87 years on this one.

...trained our Youth to hate an entire race of people...

Hmmmm.....how 'bout the human race?

[NJM]

I can't remember, but I think I touched on this elsewhere. Christians are not supposed to put themselves in a position to associate with "worldy" people, particularly within marriage - "be ye not equally yoked in the spirit." I guess in a sense you can look at it as superiority complex, as christians are supposed to associate with fellow christians, and hopefully convert non-christians to christianity. It's not so much about caring what others think, but protection of the soul. If you are in pursuit of a holy life, living by the Word, what benefit do you get from hanging around atheists? None. They cannot help you live a more godly lifestyle. They may be more inclined to engage in activities that a christian should not. THAT is why there is a delineation.

I defy this notion on the grounds that it is completely immoral and stagnant.

[BlueTravesty]

so much vitriole it was posted twice... :rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

I can't remember, but I think I touched on this elsewhere. Christians are not supposed to put themselves in a position to associate with "worldy" people, particularly within marriage - "be ye not equally yoked in the spirit."

Actually, Paul pretty much says Christians shouldn't get married at all, unless they can't control themselves, in which case it is better to be married than fornicate.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians7.htm

This quote is one of the best in the entire Bible, IMHO:

"Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that."

I used to use it every time my parents bothered me about getting married.

[JDK]

dude... christians have been among the BIGGEST killers of mankind. During the crusades, they slew hundreds, maybe thousands of muslims - the defenseless women and children as well.

I stated this once before..what you are refering to is The Roman Catholic Church/Institution "convret or die Crusades. ( Slaughters)

They have nothing to do with Biblical Christianity

Here iare some truth and facts very few people want to talk about:

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/

[lunghushan]

I stated this once before..what you are refering to is The Roman Catholic Church/Institution "convret or die Crusades. ( Slaughters)

They have nothing to do with Biblical Christianity

Here iare some truth and facts very few people want to talk about:

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/

Dude, bottom line is nobody really follows 'Biblical Christianity'. Certainly not Christians. Why do you think I quit the church? Because they don't practice what they preach.

You can't say that Catholics aren't Christians. Pretty much every denomination denounces every other denomination. Just because you say Catholics aren't Christians doesn't make it so.

[unkokusai]

Why do you think I left the church? .



They kicked you out 'cause they, like everyone else, couldn't stand you.

[Li Kao]

Christianity Cliff Notes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNN19b0Ufoc ;)

[JDK]

Dude, bottom line is nobody really follows 'Biblical Christianity'. Certainly not Christians. Why do you think I quit the church? Because they don't practice what they preach.

You can't say that Catholics aren't Christians. Pretty much every denomination denounces every other denomination. Just because you say Catholics aren't Christians doesn't make it so.

I agree.
Hypocrisy in the church hs run amok.:(

Most pick up their coat of christianity at the church door on their way in...and then hang it back up till next week on the wayout. Sad..but true.

However...............

There are some who DO practice what they preach...and whiley no means anywhere near perfect, we try our best to obey God and live good clean moral lives, and to love our neighbor as ourselves, which is according to Jesus Himself,,,
The Most Impotant Commandment of all.

There are phonies and hypocrites everywhere...just ignore them, and have a personal one on one realtionship with our Creator....and that's all you need to do:)

Just try it...ask the God of the Universe to reveal Himself to you in Jesus name.. I will pray for you..and let me know in a few days, or weeks when He makes himself know to you in an unmistakable way.

What have you got to loose???????????

JDK

[rogue]

JDK,
I was going to support your views until your linked to Chick Publications. You're on your own.

PS Guys, The Christians didn't have a corner on mass murder over the last 2 thousands years, and it looks like the Muslim world is currently going for the record.

[Dim Wit Mak]

Matthew Chapter 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus tells us the fate of these kind of "Christians". He calls us to a life of love and service. Anyone who stands before Him at the White Throne Judgement and claims they couldn't accept the sacrifice of Jesus because of hypocrits, will have that argument rejected.

When we look at people, we will be angry and disappointed. When we look to Jesus we will see what holiness is all about.

[The Willow Sword]

OH for FUK SAKE People lets keep the Holy Rolling quoting of scripture out of the discussion.

It always sends waves of nausea over me when there is a discussion,ANY discussion, and then there is the typical "Well, JESUS says........"

im reminded of the EF Hutton insurance commercials where there is a superficial discussion going on and then out of the blue the other guy says "Well E. F. Hutton says" and then the whole resteraunt stops what they are doing to listen:rolleyes: "when EF Hutton Talks, People Listen".


Maybe GENE can set some rules about religious prosalitizing here on the forum???

Peace,TWS

[JDK]

OH for FUK SAKE People lets keep the Holy Rolling quoting of scripture out of the discussion.

It always sends waves of nausea over me when there is a discussion,ANY discussion, and then there is the typical "Well, JESUS says........"

im reminded of the EF Hutton insurance commercials where there is a superficial discussion going on and then out of the blue the other guy says "Well E. F. Hutton says" and then the whole resteraunt stops what they are doing to listen:rolleyes: "when EF Hutton Talks, People Listen".


Maybe GENE can set some rules about religious prosalitizing here on the forum???

Peace,TWS

Again..it OK to quote Buddah, Confusious,Lao.....but the name of Jesus is reacted to with anger and a request to ban it ????? Why? :confused:
I am not prosalitizing ANYONE on this site.
I am trying to figure things out becaue of a conflict in my mind concerning something I love and the God I serve.

Why do you feel nausea at the mention of "Jesus Says".... no one is forcing you to believe or adhere to His teachings.

Most Oriental Priests, Monks, and Masters agree that Jesus was at least a great teacher.

Maybe look within to find WHY this name bothers you so much...and IF you feel like it...lets have a rational . brief discussion on what has caused you to feel this way. THEN we can get back to Talking Martial Arts! :D

Thats why I am here~

Sincerely JDK
Seeker Of Truth.......................

[JDK]

JDK,
I was going to support your views until your linked to Chick Publications. You're on your own.

PS Guys, The Christians didn't have a corner on mass murder over the last 2 thousands years, and it looks like the Muslim world is currently going for the record.

I am sorry rogue that you disagree with Jack Chick.
His is just one opinion, from his perspective.

My main point in my threads was to make sure to point out a difference between the first Century Disciples...and the coming to power of the Roman Catholic Church in about 325 AD.

Christianity as a State Religion ordered by Constintine...had little in common with the teachings and practices of Jesus, the 12 Disciples after his ressurection and the First Century Church

Most Catholics I know are good people...who up until 1957 were NEVER encouraged to read the Bilbe for themselves...and had MASS recited to them in Latin while the Priest Turned his back to them.:confused: :confused:

[b]I lay the blame at the Vatican's Door....not the millions of catholics who are only doing what they are taught. The Pope's and Vatican have mislead their followers in my opinion..and are as much a Political Force as a Relgion.

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION...which combined with 75 cents...will get you a cup if Coffee.:D

JDK

[The Willow Sword]

Why do you feel nausea at the mention of "Jesus Says".... no one is forcing you to believe or adhere to His teachings.

I have an issue with ANY religion that pontificates and prosalitizes its rhetoric in a self riteous indignant way. It gets shoved right in your face in this country and i am sick and fuking tired of it(as im sure many others are as well). Plus when ever i hear the "well Jesus says..." comment in discussions it makes me think that the person saying it has no real thought of his/her own. Its like they are allowing scripture to do the thinking for them, just like FASCISM and COMMUNISM and even CAPITLIST idealism has done the thinking for many in the past and present.


I am trying to figure things out becaue of a conflict in my mind concerning something I love and the God I serve.

Well then why bring the religious rantings HERE where you are going to get the perverbial smackdown because we are all tired of hearing it. why not just seek counsel from your minister since it is he/she that would be able to better give advice. Just seems like it is another feeble attempt at the religious rite to "spread the BS...uhh excuse me WORD".


Most Oriental Priests, Monks, and Masters agree that Jesus was at least a great teacher.

And they say that to get the christians off their BACKS. They acknowledge in a humble way that yes yes Jesus was a great teacher, they acknowledge the influence the teachings has had on people(positive AND Negative mind you) and then they Move on.


Maybe look within to find WHY this name bothers you so much...and IF you feel like it...lets have a rational . brief discussion on what has caused you to feel this way. THEN we can get back to Talking Martial Arts!

Thats why I am here~

It is Obvious that the Thread you started was a Bait tactic for you to start spouting and touting,and you got a couple of others here to join the bandwagon. Its like you could not just start a thread on religion because they have started in these forums before and the dialogue winds up the same everytime(like the SD threads). This thread isnt any different. If you want to get back to talking MARTIAL ARTS then Talk Martial ARTS. Leave the religion out of it.
There are connected philosophical issues regarding martial arts that DO NOT encroach the boundaries of ones own personal spiritual views and ideals and we discuss them here and in other sections of this website.
Look i got no truck with what a man believes in his heart regarding matters of the spirit, SO AS LONG AS I DONT HAVE TO HAVE IT PUSHED IN MY FACE. I keep my spirituality very PRIVATE and WITHIN(where i feel it needs to be, because THAT is where it has the most benefit to MYSELF AND OTHERS). There you have it.

Peace,TWS

[Black Jack II]

Maybe GENE can set some rules about religious prosalitizing here on the forum???

Wow, if that is not the perfect example of what the far left is all about. You don't like what you read, it may offend someone, so you want the big government to step in and protect your eyes.:rolleyes:

Don't worry Jesus loves you.:D

[The Willow Sword]

Its called seperation of church and state. Deal with it BJ.:p TWS

[SevenStar]

OH for FUK SAKE People lets keep the Holy Rolling quoting of scripture out of the discussion.

why? if it's relevant to the discussion, it should be here, and perhaps you shouldn't be.


It always sends waves of nausea over me when there is a discussion,ANY discussion, and then there is the typical "Well, JESUS says........"

see above response about relevance.

[SevenStar]

It is Obvious that the Thread you started was a Bait tactic for you to start spouting and touting,and you got a couple of others here to join the bandwagon. Its like you could not just start a thread on religion because they have started in these forums before and the dialogue winds up the same everytime(like the SD threads). This thread isnt any different. If you want to get back to talking MARTIAL ARTS then Talk Martial ARTS. Leave the religion out of it.


it this thread was indeed bait, you sure as h3ll took it, hook, line and sinker...

[MasterKiller]

Maybe look within to find WHY this name bothers you so much...and IF you feel like it...lets have a rational .


Your God's name is all over my money.
I have to mention your God when I recite the pledge of allegiance to my country.
I have to spend 6 weeks every year (between X-Mas, Easter, Good Friday, Lint, Ash Wednesday) observing your God.
Every time I attend a school function, they force a prayer to your God (even though A) that violates separation of Church and State and B) I'm allowed to pray quietly to my own God if I choose :rolleyes: )
My tax money funds exclusionary programs like Fellowship of Xtian Athletes.
Lawsuits have to be continually filed to keep your God's presence minimized in publically-funded schools and court houses
I can't buy liquor on Sundays or holidays because you think no one should be allowed to drink on your God's rest day
Stores open late and close early on Sunday because that's your God's day of rest.


That's a partial list, and I didn't even mention firebombing abortion clinics. :eek:

I can continue if you'd like.

[SevenStar]

Actually, Paul pretty much says Christians shouldn't get married at all, unless they can't control themselves, in which case it is better to be married than fornicate.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians7.htm

This quote is one of the best in the entire Bible, IMHO:

"Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that."

I used to use it every time my parents bothered me about getting married.


He's not saying don't marry. He's saying that you shouldn't marry if you know you aren't ready for it. Also, christians are told not to seek a partner. God will send one to you. seeking one is may be the reason divorce rate is so high.

the bible also says that he who finds a good woman has found a joyous thing. In addition, the 7th and 10th commandments pertain to marriage.

[SevenStar]

Your God's name is all over my money.
I have to mention your God when I recite the pledge of allegiance to my country.
I have to spend 6 weeks every year (between X-Mas, Easter, Good Friday, Lint, Ash Wednesday) observing your God.
Every time I attend a school function, they force a prayer to your God (even though A) that violates separation of Church and State and B) I'm allowed to pray quietly to my own God if I choose :rolleyes: )
Lawsuits have to be continually filed to keep your God's presence minimized in publically-funded schools and court houses
I can't buy liquor on Sundays or holidays because you think no one should be allowed to drink on your God's rest day
Stores open late and close early on Sunday because that's your God's day of rest.


That's a partial list, and I didn't even mention firebombing abortion clinics. :eek:

I can continue if you'd like.

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayum. Not too much more to say here, other than:























0wn3d!

[SevenStar]

I defy this notion on the grounds that it is completely immoral and stagnant.

I understand what you're saying here, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate - immoral to whom? Here you have a group of people with a common goal - making it to their heaven. If talking you you is counterproductive to that, as you are a satanist, then why should they associate with you? Prejudice can be considered immoral, but they do have a reason for this "immorality"

[The Willow Sword]

if this thread was indeed bait, you sure as h3ll took it, hook, line and sinker...

Well the big fish that they think they are reeling in is just another Tire at the bottom of the lake that will eventually break their line. ;)

Peace,TWS

[JDK]

I have an issue with ANY religion that pontificates and prosalitizes its rhetoric in a self riteous indignant way. It gets shoved right in your face in this country and i am sick and fuking tired of it(as im sure many others are as well). Plus when ever i hear the "well Jesus says..." comment in discussions it makes me think that the person saying it has no real thought of his/her own. Its like they are allowing scripture to do the thinking for them, just like FASCISM and COMMUNISM and even CAPITLIST idealism has done the thinking for many in the past and present.



Well then why bring the religious rantings HERE where you are going to get the perverbial smackdown because we are all tired of hearing it. why not just seek counsel from your minister since it is he/she that would be able to better give advice. Just seems like it is another feeble attempt at the religious rite to "spread the BS...uhh excuse me WORD".



And they say that to get the christians off their BACKS. They acknowledge in a humble way that yes yes Jesus was a great teacher, they acknowledge the influence the teachings has had on people(positive AND Negative mind you) and then they Move on.



It is Obvious that the Thread you started was a Bait tactic for you to start spouting and touting,and you got a couple of others here to join the bandwagon. Its like you could not just start a thread on religion because they have started in these forums before and the dialogue winds up the same everytime(like the SD threads). This thread isnt any different. If you want to get back to talking MARTIAL ARTS then Talk Martial ARTS. Leave the religion out of it.
There are connected philosophical issues regarding martial arts that DO NOT encroach the boundaries of ones own personal spiritual views and ideals and we discuss them here and in other sections of this website.
Look i got no truck with what a man believes in his heart regarding matters of the spirit, SO AS LONG AS I DONT HAVE TO HAVE IT PUSHED IN MY FACE. I keep my spirituality very PRIVATE and WITHIN(where i feel it needs to be, because THAT is where it has the most benefit to MYSELF AND OTHERS). There you have it.

Peace,TWS

I dont bait topics and I dont waste my time playing mind games for fun.

You obvioulsy have an issue with the christian faith.
I have looked over your other threads and dont find you coming down so hard on those that quote other various masters dead and living..why is that?

Why single out my God?

In fairness you should go back and chastise everyone else who quotes ( some I have seen extensively) from past dead masters.

In any event..I will stay on the Martial Arts topic from now on...


JDK

[lunghushan]

He's not saying don't marry. He's saying that you shouldn't marry if you know you aren't ready for it. Also, christians are told not to seek a partner. God will send one to you. seeking one is may be the reason divorce rate is so high.

the bible also says that he who finds a good woman has found a joyous thing. In addition, the 7th and 10th commandments pertain to marriage.

Maybe I flunked reading comprehension, but:

Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do,
but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

Anyhoo ... whatever.

[SevenStar]

1. As stated, the unmarried should not look for a man - God will send one to them. In the meantime, they are supposed to devote their entire lives to God. Obviously, being married will prevent that, which could be part of why they are told not to look in the first place.

2. their should be only one marriage. Once you are widowed or divorced, the bible states that you should not re-marry. In addition, it also states somewhere that adultery is the only viable reason for divorce.

[lunghushan]

1. As stated, the unmarried should not look for a man - God will send one to them. In the meantime, they are supposed to devote their entire lives to God. Obviously, being married will prevent that, which could be part of why they are told not to look in the first place.

2. their should be only one marriage. Once you are widowed or divorced, the bible states that you should not re-marry. In addition, it also states somewhere that adultery is the only viable reason for divorce.

It doesn't say God will send one to them. It says, "but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire."

[Dim Wit Mak]

Its called seperation of church and state. Deal with it BJ.:p TWS

This coutry has always been about freedom of religion and not freedom from religion. What does this forum have to do with "state" even if "separation of church and state" were an issue?

Also, for those who might be offended about Jesus' quote concerning the fate of hypocrits, please inform me of any sane and rational religious founder that winked at hypocrisy.

[SevenStar]

Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:6
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

Genesis 2:18
It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but *****mongers and adulterers God will judge.

I can go on for days.

As for what you quoted, you are taking them out of context. they are basically saying that marriage is honorable, as is celibacy. However, if you are not strong enough to remain celibate, then you definitely need to marry, so you are not sinfully fornicating.

You also took another passage out of context. here is more of it:

1 Corinthians
7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
7:26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.
7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

being bound by marriage takes away from the time you can devote to God, obviously. However, He does not in any way frown on marriage.

[lunghushan]

Right, but you have to figure that Christ said he was the new covenant. Christians aren't bound by traditional Jewish laws from the old testament. So throw out the Genesis and Hebrew part.

I mean, when they were stoning the adulterer, Jesus stopped them. He picked crops on the Sabbath ... he broke the Hebrew laws.

So you have like you said before that Christians aren't supposed to divorce from Matthew. But it says by Paul that you shouldn't marry unless you can't control yourselves.

":27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. "

Anyways, I think we are agreeing here, as you said:

"However, if you are not strong enough to remain celibate, then you definitely need to marry, so you are not sinfully fornicating."

[Anthony]

I think the non-Christians are forgetting about the days off from work they get because of our holidays. They should be a little more appreciative. Master Killer- how would you like to have to work every Sunday buddy?.........I thought so. So you'll stay sober and shut the !@#% up.

[Dim Wit Mak]

I think the non-Christians are forgetting about the days off from work they get because of our holidays. They should be a little more appreciative. Master Killer- how would you like to have to work every Sunday buddy?.........I thought so. So you'll stay sober and shut the !@#&#37; up.

In the school districts, "Winter Recess" was originally Christmas, and "Spring Break" was originally Easter. Does anyone really think government would have given us any of this time off at all if it wasn't religious first? No way!!!!

[Dim Wit Mak]

"Maybe GENE can set some rules about religious prosalitizing here on the forum???"

Gene is a pretty classy guy who believes in reasonable freedom of speech. I don't believe he thinks the title of moderator includes wearing a "Religion Police" hat.

[SevenStar]

Right, but you have to figure that Christ said he was the new covenant. Christians aren't bound by traditional Jewish laws from the old testament. So throw out the Genesis and Hebrew part.

regardless, the quote from genesis is repeated verbatim in matthew. corinthians is in the new testament, and peter has several verses about marriage in his preaching to the corinthians.

and there is Ephesians 5:28
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

you can't debate it, dude. God favors marriage. He also favors celibacy. period.



I mean, when they were stoning the adulterer, Jesus stopped them. He picked crops on the Sabbath ... he broke the Hebrew laws.

Though it is said that the old testament is void as it's jewish law, the 10 commandments are by no means void.


Anyways, I think we are agreeing here

for all practical purposes we do, we're just debating two sides of the same coin.

[SevenStar]

I think the non-Christians are forgetting about the days off from work they get because of our holidays. They should be a little more appreciative. Master Killer- how would you like to have to work every Sunday buddy?.........I thought so. So you'll stay sober and shut the !@#% up.

Actually, I'd put money on it that even if we did have to work sundays, we would get another off day, just from labor laws that would have devloped. Heck, FWIW, I work sunday mornings on my 2nd job, because the club doesn't close until sunday morning. Some sunday nights I am there as well. Many establishments run on sundays.

And, now that I think about it, by the jewish calendar, isn't the sabbath SATURDAY?? Isn't that also why our own weeks BEGIN on sunday? And here you are telling MK to shut the eff up...


Matthew 5:21
You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

James 1:26
Do any of you think you are religious? If you do not control your tongue, your religion is worthless and you deceive yourselves.

oops...

[SevenStar]

Right, but you have to figure that Christ said he was the new covenant. Christians aren't bound by traditional Jewish laws from the old testament. So throw out the Genesis and Hebrew part.

I mean, when they were stoning the adulterer, Jesus stopped them. He picked crops on the Sabbath ... he broke the Hebrew laws.


I didn't think about this till now, but no, he didn't.

1. HOW did he stop them? "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - and nobody is without sin. the pharises knew that, so none of them were able to throw the stone. They were trying to either discredit jesus or put him to death (if he stopped the stoning, then he woulda been put to death. had he just let her go, he woulda broken the law.) But he turned the tables on them. None of the people who accused her were able to throw a stone. consequently, she had no accusers, making her a free woman. The power of conviction is technically what freed mary, not jesus letting her go.

2. WHY did jesus pick crops? What did he DO with them? Did he sell them, eat them, or use them to feed others? SELLING is work and would be against the law. picking them to eat is simply what you must do to live.

He broke no law in either case you mentioned. LOL, loopholes are the shiznit.

[lunghushan]

1. HOW did he stop them? "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - and nobody is without sin. the pharises knew that, so none of them were able to throw the stone. They were trying to either discredit jesus or put him to death (if he stopped the stoning, then he woulda been put to death. had he just let her go, he woulda broken the law.) But he turned the tables on them. None of the people who accused her were able to throw a stone. consequently, she had no accusers, making her a free woman. The power of conviction is technically what freed mary, not jesus letting her go.

2. WHY did jesus pick crops? What did he DO with them? Did he sell them, eat them, or use them to feed others? SELLING is work and would be against the law. picking them to eat is simply what you must do to live.


Hmmm ... interesting. That's more in line with what the supposed 'Saint Issa' story says, that when the Sanhedrin quizzed him, they found him blameless, and it was Pontius Pilate who actually decided to go ahead and crucify him.

Anyways ... whatever.

[Li Kao]

Your God's name is all over my money.
I have to mention your God when I recite the pledge of allegiance to my country.
I have to spend 6 weeks every year (between X-Mas, Easter, Good Friday, Lint, Ash Wednesday) observing your God.
Every time I attend a school function, they force a prayer to your God (even though A) that violates separation of Church and State and B) I'm allowed to pray quietly to my own God if I choose :rolleyes: )
My tax money funds exclusionary programs like Fellowship of Xtian Athletes.
Lawsuits have to be continually filed to keep your God's presence minimized in publically-funded schools and court houses
I can't buy liquor on Sundays or holidays because you think no one should be allowed to drink on your God's rest day
Stores open late and close early on Sunday because that's your God's day of rest.



MK,

No one has a gun to your head making you recite the Pledge of Allegiance and you can spend the 6 weeks of holiday vacation however you choose -- there is no requirement that you have to observe God. I don't know about you, maybe I'm just lazy/selfish, but if my company want to pay me for sitting at home, then I'm all for it!

There seems to be a growing majority of people that favor elimination of any religious symbolism. Obviously, this has to be done legislatively, and if it truly is the will of the majority of people, then I'm sure it will eventually happen, though maybe not in our lifetimes. If it's something you deem important, I guess the thing to do would become a participant in a vehicle for change. Myself, I tend to be very tolerant and most of the complaints/injustices you mentioned are things I personally don't care enough about to get up in arms about. (I guess you can add apathy to my list of faults). Still, history bears out the fact that much of America's culture/tradition is steeped in Judeo-Christian ideals -- it's part of our past, like it or not. Things like putting "In God We Trust" on money were enacted by Congressional approval, and have to overturned through legal process.

Bummer that you are stuck in a state that hasn't overturned the oppressive Prohibition Laws -- I think most states have repealed the Sunday ban on sales, in some degree or another. Liquor laws are pretty strange from state to state or even county to county. I think the only universal law is that the minimum purchase age is 21. Here is a partial list to show you what I mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state




That's a partial list, and I didn't even mention firebombing abortion clinics. :eek:

I can continue if you'd like

[SevenStar]

MK,

No one has a gun to your head making you recite the Pledge of Allegiance and you can spend the 6 weeks of holiday vacation however you choose -- there is no requirement that you have to observe God.

while that is true, people aren't stupid. it's CHRISTMAS break. EASTER break, etc. Even if you do choose not to observe God, you still know what the holiday was intended for, just as we know what the moment of silence in public schools was intended for. KKK members with jobs (certain jobs, anyway) are still off on Dr. martin luther king jr.'s birthday, whether they choose to reflect on his life or not.



Still, history bears out the fact that much of America's culture/tradition is steeped in Judeo-Christian ideals -- it's part of our past, like it or not.

just as paganism has its place within the history christianity, like it or not.

[Li Kao]

SevenStar -- not sure if we are in agreement or not -- I guess I was just trying to say, why not just be happy/grateful if you are lucky enough to get a paid holiday off, regardless of the reason behind it?

I understand the efforts being made to make the world politically correct, so that noone is ever excluded, offended, or discriminated against for their religion, sexual preference, race, weight, height, etc. and while it's a lofty ideal, I'm more of a realist in that I don't think life will *ever* be fair and there is no way to satisfy everyone.

[lunghushan]

MK,

No one has a gun to your head making you recite the Pledge of Allegiance and you can spend the 6 weeks of holiday vacation however you choose -- there is no requirement that you have to observe God. I don't know about you, maybe I'm just lazy/selfish, but if my company want to pay me for sitting at home, then I'm all for it!

Li Kao makes a good point. Maybe instead of getting rid of religious days off, we should instead honor more religions.

So we could, for example, take Ramadan off ... the BaHai faith has a similar period in the spring, I think. We could take off the Jewish holidays, such as Yom Kippur, Pesach, etc, ... there are some Hindu days off like Diwali and Holi that we could take as well....

So add to that the Christian sabbath, which is on Sunday with Jewish Sabbath on Friday evening/Saturday, and make those mandatory days off.

That would be a good start, don't you think?

[MasterKiller]

Li Kao makes a good point. Maybe instead of getting rid of religious days off, we should instead honor more religions.

So we could, for example, take Ramadan off ... the BaHai faith has a similar period in the spring, I think. We could take off the Jewish holidays, such as Yom Kippur, Pesach, etc, ... there are some Hindu days off like Diwali and Holi that we could take as well....

So add to that the Christian sabbath, which is on Sunday with Jewish Sabbath on Friday evening/Saturday, and make those mandatory days off.

That would be a good start, don't you think?

Word.

sdadasdas

[Anthony]

"just as paganism has its place within the history christianity, like it or not."

I actually do like this subject. I've been to Europe many summers and was always intrigued by the weird symbolism that seems to adorn many old cathedrals. Carvings of weird faces, skulls, naked people, etc. Things you wouldn't expect. Apparently workers were sometimes pagan and were given license to incorporate whatever symbolism they wanted into the Churches they were building......or so I was told. Some Cathedrals are architecturally amazing. Just another of many subjects I would delve deeper into If I had more time off from work.


It would be great if companies were forced to acknowledge other religious holidays by law. But we'd probably get screwed elsewhere. We're a country of forced workaholics much to our detriment.

[laugarkuen]

while that is true, people aren't stupid. it's CHRISTMAS break. EASTER break, etc. Even if you do choose not to observe God, you still know what the holiday was intended for, .....




just as paganism has its place within the history christianity, like it or not.

"VERNAL EQUINOX March 20 / 21:
The celebration of the Vernal (Spring) Equinox. Day & Night are equal length. It is a time for planting and celebrating the first signs of fertility and rebirth. Symbols of Ostara like eggs, chicks, and rabbits have been adopted by Christians in their Easter holiday. The word, Easter is from the goddess Eostra, Ishtar or Astarte. "

Lazy posting I know but I thought this summed it up well. Chrisianity has a habit of smothering other celebrations/events/ceremonies with it's own.

This is often seen as a way of killing off older religions and is quite offensive whilst funny at the same time. We can't convert you so we'll just pretend you're joining in....

[lunghushan]

"VERNAL EQUINOX March 20 / 21:
The celebration of the Vernal (Spring) Equinox. Day & Night are equal length. It is a time for planting and celebrating the first signs of fertility and rebirth. Symbols of Ostara like eggs, chicks, and rabbits have been adopted by Christians in their Easter holiday. The word, Easter is from the goddess Eostra, Ishtar or Astarte. "

Lazy posting I know but I thought this summed it up well. Chrisianity has a habit of smothering other celebrations/events/ceremonies with it's own.

This is often seen as a way of killing off older religions and is quite offensive whilst funny at the same time. We can't convert you so we'll just pretend you're joining in....

Yeah, or how about All Hallows Eve / All Saints Day / All Souls Day ...

People think that Microsoft invented embrace/extend/exterminate but Christians were doing it long ago.

[FuXnDajenariht]

well they only got that from ancient empires. Greece, Rome, Persia, China. they just filled the void afterwards.

[laugarkuen]

Then there is the whole christmas tree thing. Which is yet another pagan tradition. OK, pagan may be the wrong word as that ties it just to paganism when there were alot of ancient religions that brought the forest into the home at midwinter or other times.

[JDK]

To All,

I have been doing some thinking...and I guess in my enthusiasm I came on
much too strong with my personal beliefs. I don’t have all the answers and AM
still in search of Truth....I have so much to learn, like all of us.

Please forgive.

I want to talk Martial Arts from now on...so I will restrict my posts
To that Subject. Anything else...feel free to send me a Private Message

Again...sorry to have stirred up so much hostility and controversy...that was
never my intention

JDK
Eliom12@sbcglobal.net

[Wong Ying Home]

Finally the penny dropped....well done

Apology accepted and look forward to discussing CMA with you in the future;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can't buy liquor on Sundays or holidays because you think no one should be allowed to drink on your God's rest day


MK, where are you located?

I thought Georgia was the only state with this ridiculous law?

[Shaolin Wookie]

This coutry has always been about freedom of religion and not freedom from religion. What does this forum have to do with "state" even if "separation of church and state" were an issue?

Also, for those who might be offended about Jesus' quote concerning the fate of hypocrits, please inform me of any sane and rational religious founder that winked at hypocrisy.

Ephesians 6:2 " Honor thy father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise."

Matthew 8:22" And another of his disciples said to him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said to him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

(That's Jesus winking at hypocrisy......)

[laugarkuen]

Forgiven. It's so easy to come on strong about something you have a passion for.

It's much harder to apologise.

[lunghushan]

[B]To All,

I have been doing some thinking...and I guess in my enthusiasm I came on
much too strong with my personal beliefs. I don’t have all the answers and AM
still in search of Truth....I have so much to learn, like all of us.

Please forgive.


No worries. Everybody was just as hard on Juna, and they're just as hard on kung fu cults, so don't feel bad.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFBF_Fa04_Y&eurl=

[lunghushan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFBF_Fa04_Y&eurl=

Wow, that's like the old rap from Oakland and other hoods before they got all into all the bling-bling and that crap. Not bad at all.

Or in other words, this guy's not gonna make any money until he starts with the bling-bling and hos and all that crap. LOL

[Shaolin Wookie]

Christ was the original gangsta rapper.:p

He had a ho.:p
He even had an entourage.:D
As for the bling.....well, the wise men rigged him up.:cool:

[FuXnDajenariht]

MK, where are you located?

I thought Georgia was the only state with this ridiculous law?

us New Yawkers can't either. believe me i've tried.

[Anthony]

"I want to talk Martial Arts from now on...so I will restrict my posts
To that Subject. Anything else...feel free to send me a Private Message"

I, for one, am surprised that you don't think a Kung-fu forum is a good place to discuss theology.

Seriously, youre right and I agree. JKD you don't owe anyone here any apology especially to people who mis-represent facts and spread lies to try to debunk your religion (where's their apology? where's the "I'm sorry for lying" from them). It's just the truth. Funny how they have no problem accepting your apology though.

"Again...sorry to have stirred up so much hostility and controversy...that was"

Don't kid yourself. The hostility was already there and you know it. The same people who bash Christianity wouldn't dare open their mouths about any other faith. I admire you for calming the thread down and realising that the debate is pointless.


"MK, where are you located?

I thought Georgia was the only state with this ridiculous law."

For those who cant wait til' afternoon to get drunk on a Sun :eek: I have a unique idea.....try buying youre booze on a Sat night. It's not like we don't live in the age of 24 hour stores on every corner. Or maybe a few days earlier. I don't think liquor is gonna go bad by Sun. morning if you buy it a week before. If you need any other help understanding that concept please let me know.

[lunghushan]

"I want to talk Martial Arts from now on...so I will restrict my posts
To that Subject. Anything else...feel free to send me a Private Message"

I, for one, am surprised that you don't think a Kung-fu forum is a good place to discuss theology.

Seriously, youre right and I agree. JKD you don't owe anyone here any apology especially to people who mis-represent facts and spread lies to try to debunk your religion (where's their apology? where's the "I'm sorry for lying" from them). It's just the truth. Funny how they have no problem accepting your apology though.

A) Who is lying ... B) He doesn't have to apologize ... that's throwing in the towel, bottom line.

I've done the same thing on other threads, "You win." It just means he got tired of arguing is all.

[MasterKiller]

For those who cant wait til' afternoon to get drunk on a Sun :eek: I have a unique idea.....try buying youre booze on a Sat night. It's not like we don't live in the age of 24 hour stores on every corner. Or maybe a few days earlier. I don't think liquor is gonna go bad by Sun. morning if you buy it a week before. If you need any other help understanding that concept please let me know.

In Oklahoma,

You cannot buy wine or liquor after 9 PM.
You cannot buy beer after 2 am.
Bars cannot serve beer after 2 AM.
Bars must close before 4 AM.
Grocers and convenience stores can only sell 3.0&#37; beer.
You cannot buy liquor on a Sunday, or legal holiday.



Hell, tattoo parlors were JUST LEGALIZED in November...tattoo parlors were legally considered "immoral."

The point is, in a free country, I should be free to buy liquor whenever I want, or cover my whole freakin body with tattoos of dolphins raping porcupines for that matter. But the X-Tian lobby thinks otherwise, and they have lots of money to spend...

[lunghushan]

In Oklahoma,

You cannot buy wine or liquor after 9 PM.
You cannot buy beer after 2 am.
Bars cannot serve beer after 2 AM.
Bars must close before 4 AM.
Grocers and convenience stores can only sell 3.0% beer.
You cannot buy liquor on a Sunday, or legal holiday.



Not all of that is on moral grounds, though. Some of that is due to the fact that when people drink after a certain hour, there are more accidents. The same reason they have legal age of drinking laws.


Hell, tattoo parlors were JUST LEGALIZED in November...tattoo parlors were legally considered "immoral."


Well, I for one don't think tattoos are immoral, but it is kindof sad seeing all the people around Seattle who have to cover up their tattoos at work because they are a huge distraction.

People are kindof going nutso these days with tattoos and piercings, and I've known enough people who needed surgery for scar revision due to elongated earlobes and other kinds of piercings, that it isn't such a bad idea to limit such things a bit, just to save people from themselves.

But yeah, banning it on so-called 'moral' grounds isn't so great. Humans underneath their clothes are just animals after all, and without sex there wouldn't be any people, so what's wrong with that? Nothing ... except religion made people think it's bad.

Although, given the state of a lot of people's bodies these days, it's better they keep some clothes on, especially as they get older, just so everybody else doesn't have to vomit all day.

[MasterKiller]

Not all of that is on moral grounds, though. Some of that is due to the fact that when people drink after a certain hour, there are more accidents. The same reason they have legal age of drinking laws.

I understand that, but nevertheless...If an 18 year old can die for his country, he should be able to buy a beer first.

[lunghushan]

I understand that, but nevertheless...If an 18 year old can die for his country, he should be able to buy a beer first.

No, because you have to understand something. They've done studies that the brain's risk mechanism isn't fully developed at 18, in fact not until 21 or something, which accounts for the risk taking behavior before 21.

So that's very bad for people drinking and driving, because it causes a lot of accidents.

However, it is GREAT for soldiers because they won't be so worried about going and getting shot up or doing something stupid like signing a long term contract into the military.

So bottom line is ... 18 is fine for getting shot up. Not so fine for legal drinking.

[Anthony]

"Originally Posted by MasterKiller
In Oklahoma,
You cannot buy wine or liquor after 9 PM.
You cannot buy beer after 2 am.
Bars cannot serve beer after 2 AM.
Bars must close before 4 AM.
Grocers and convenience stores can only sell 3.0% beer.
You cannot buy liquor on a Sunday, or legal holiday."

The last part of my post was intended more as humor than political commentary (keep in mind I'm in NY and may not realise how bad it is elsewhere).

I would hate that myself. It's like you have to keep a schedule on when you can buy liquor. Point taken. Here you wouldn't think that there were any liquor laws in place at all. Anyone can buy it anytime. I ran into the supermarket (no liquor before noon) rule once. In all honesty I do think it's stupid. I was on my way to someones house and was annoyed as he.ll that I couldn't bring liquor as a gift......and it was almost noon as I remember. The sun. morning rule goes back to people showing up drunk to Church. Probably a few hundred years ago. Totally irrelevant today. There's nothing safer that I can see about not being able to buy alcolol on Sun morning as opposed to any other time of the week.

[mantis108]

True that he need not apologize for having faith in his religion teachings.

Well, I think JDK spreads himself too thin arguing for his faith on 3 different threads. BTW, I don't believe his "apology" is sincere anyway. Beside why would he think people are upset with him on a public forum? I have always believe that there's nothing personal in debating on a public forum such as this one. I offered a rebuttal on his claim about the "unique" and divineness of Jesus and he bailed ( I think he burned out trying to get his bearings on 3 different threads). Good for him to take the easy route out.

Here's my rebuttal:


Quote:
<<<Let it simply be said the we know more about the details of the hours immediately before and the actual death of Jesus, in and near Jerusalem, than we know about the death of any other one man in all the ancient world" (Page 360).>>>

The exact same "truth" (circumstances and all) can be said about General Guan/Kwan whom btw was reportedly saw both by his enemies and many common folks after he was executed by his enemy. So why is General Guan's worship is considered cult thing and the Jesus cult isn't? Why the GD double standard?

Everything that has been presented are no more than circumstantial evidence at best and pure speculations and conjectures in reality. But you have the right to have faith and believe whatever the heck you want. The only thing is that don't hold the GD holier than thou double standard attitude and claiming circumstantial evidences as proofs and facts. Becareful of what kind of water you are walking on, it can drown you just as quickly as it can float you.

Oh one more thing, to say that your God is the only true GOD means that you MUST acknowledge the existence of other Gods first. It's all relative - Yin Yang. Otherwise there is no need for that kind of a statement.

Mantis108

BTW, the same can also be true for Taiwanese Dog temple. No offense to the Christian faith but People saw the loyal dog (supposedly resurrected) and help other people then they build temples for it. Now I wonder what the theology savvy folks can correct and enlighten me about the difference their faith holds? If there is a reasonable arguement of it, I will accept.

Personally, I have nothing again Christian theology but please don't be biased and apply double standard when arguing for your faith.

Anyhoo, I think looking out for one of your brothers is one thing but bending backward to back him up is another. If this is a debate on other faiths or cult (ie Falungung), the original poster would be teared to pieces by the Christian believers inside or outside this kind of forum. I just have no stomach for that kind of hypocracy (no offense just expressing my feelings).

Mantis108

[Ben Gash]

well they only got that from ancient empires. Greece, Rome, Persia, China. they just filled the void afterwards.

Actually it's a direct effect of the spread of the Christian church through the Roman empire. A large part of the success of the Roman empire was down to their smooth assimilation of conquered peoples. A large part of this was a slight restructuring of their faith and culture to fit within the roman model. Rather than sweeping away the old practices, they just made them Roman, so the classic British example is that the goddess Sulis became Sulis-Minerva.
The Roman Church followed this successful example, rather than upsetting people and saying "no, you can't have a festival anymore", they said "here, have a slightly different festival at the same sort of time"
It always makes me laugh when people go "Easter was a pagan festival" like it's some big secret or somehow significant. It's eminently practical, swap one festival of renewal for another.
When it comes to absorbing folk beliefs into Christianity, yes there is some of it, but to be honest most of it has faded away now and only really survived in little festival idiosyncrasies and cultural superstitions (which most practising Christians frown upon anyway), whereas integrated folk beliefs are highly significant in some branches of Islam and Buddhism.

[golden arhat]

In Oklahoma,

You cannot buy wine or liquor after 9 PM.
You cannot buy beer after 2 am.
Bars cannot serve beer after 2 AM.
Bars must close before 4 AM.
Grocers and convenience stores can only sell 3.0% beer.
You cannot buy liquor on a Sunday, or legal holiday.



Hell, tattoo parlors were JUST LEGALIZED in November...tattoo parlors were legally considered "immoral."

The point is, in a free country, I should be free to buy liquor whenever I want, or cover my whole freakin body with tattoos of dolphins raping porcupines for that matter. But the X-Tian lobby thinks otherwise, and they have lots of money to spend...


ineurope and some places here in the uk
24 hour drinking is allowed from 18 and it is shown to cause less problems as people dont have to scramble to get drunk before last orders (11pm)

[Ben Gash]

Tell you what Fred, come and spend a Friday or Saturday night at work with me and learn the truth of that :rolleyes:

[golden arhat]

suppose it varies form pace to place

things have gotten quite a bit better up here

i'l give u the benefit of the doubt tho

[golden arhat]

well I like to believe that humans were genetically engineered by a race of aliens from sirius--just read chariots of the gods and you will see the light...

Reply]
Agreed. Although, we may be an early colony of thiers, and not know it too. That would explain how early civilisations had such knowledge, and understanding of herbal medicine accupunture and accupressure.

I mean, how did a technically primitave society figure out accupunture anyway? It had to have been taught to them by a superior intelect, or a more advanced civalisation, someone with the advanced (even beyond our current) technology to plot and map the human nervious system, and also had the technical means to identify all the acupunture points and study their effects in a discaplined and scientific way to created a functional medicinal system.

Think about it. Back in ancient time, there was no mass comminucation, so the disvoveries of a point, and it's use could not be shared on a wide spread scale, yet somehow a really deep and inclusive system of accupuncture and herbal healing developed under those condititons?

Look what it takes to get a modern drug to the market, all the clinical testing and such, and the amount of science it takes to figure it all out. It's on a scale that is absolutly geometric compared to what the Chinese had 10,000 years ago.


i reckon accupuncture like most inventions
probably cam out of early humans trying to figure out new ways of killing each other

[lunghushan]

ineurope and some places here in the uk
24 hour drinking is allowed from 18 and it is shown to cause less problems as people dont have to scramble to get drunk before last orders (11pm)

People don't drive as much in the UK and Europe as in the U.S. The distances between places also isn't as great and there's much better mass transit. Also I would venture people are taught to be a little more mature in Europe. Not in Britain of course where people still get into fistfights and stuff all the time. LOL

[golden arhat]

People don't drive as much in the UK and Europe as in the U.S. The distances between places also isn't as great and there's much better mass transit. Also I would venture people are taught to be a little more mature in Europe. Not in Britain of course where people still get into fistfights and stuff all the time. LOL

thats true people here in manchester are nice but really (and i mean really) violent

and u know the strange thing
traditional wepons training is completely valid here as loads of people own katanas and broadswords and what not

[Anthony]

By Mantis:

Well, I think JDK spreads himself too thin arguing for his faith on 3 different threads. ...........he bailed ( I think he burned out trying to get his bearings on 3 different threads). Good for him to take the easy route out.


In my opinion it was the intelligent way out. At what point do you realise that a debate is a waste of time-especially with people you don't know and who aren't exactly authorities on the subject. To me faith, by it's very nature, is not debatable.


By Mantis:

"Oh one more thing, to say that your God is the only true GOD means that you MUST acknowledge the existence of other Gods first. It's all relative - Yin Yang. Otherwise there is no need for that kind of a statement."


Wrong. It only means that you acknowledge that the belief in false gods exists. Like if youre worshiping a head of lettuce and I believe it's not a real god.

[Shaolin Wookie]

"I want to talk Martial Arts from now on...so I will restrict my posts
To that Subject. Anything else...feel free to send me a Private Message"

I, for one, am surprised that you don't think a Kung-fu forum is a good place to discuss theology.

Seriously, youre right and I agree. JKD you don't owe anyone here any apology especially to people who mis-represent facts and spread lies to try to debunk your religion (where's their apology? where's the "I'm sorry for lying" from them). It's just the truth. Funny how they have no problem accepting your apology though.

"Again...sorry to have stirred up so much hostility and controversy...that was"

Don't kid yourself. The hostility was already there and you know it. The same people who bash Christianity wouldn't dare open their mouths about any other faith. I admire you for calming the thread down and realising that the debate is pointless.


"MK, where are you located?

I thought Georgia was the only state with this ridiculous law."

For those who cant wait til' afternoon to get drunk on a Sun :eek: I have a unique idea.....try buying youre booze on a Sat night. It's not like we don't live in the age of 24 hour stores on every corner. Or maybe a few days earlier. I don't think liquor is gonna go bad by Sun. morning if you buy it a week before. If you need any other help understanding that concept please let me know.

I don't drink....every couple of months I have a glass of wine. Alcohol can take your training down by weeks, even months, when you're in peak condition....plus, I think it turns people into animals. Sorry guys....;) Tea is much, much better. But I dont' see why somebody shouldn't be able to buy it on Sunday if they can buy it every other day. Why not Sunday? Oh, Sunday is God's day......well, as for separation of church and state---there's a contradiction in LAW....AMERICAN LAW...or don't you think the constition should be upheld? Or, upheld only in benefit to Christian dogma?

I don't owe Christianity an apology, and it doesn't owe me one. But I have full right to kick its ****ing azz every time I encounter it. I didn't choose religion. My parents and their parents, and the church pushed me into it. Parents do have major sway over children, and the church knows it, so they condition children in Christian traditions, philosophy, and mores. I contended with these my entire life. they made me miserable and made me hate humanity. I still (eight years out of the church) have to deal with these issues (hence--it's not going overboard to call it brainwashing).

So **** Christianity. I'll berate it till I die. I don't hate Christians, but I do hate their M.O.---make everyone like us. Salvation is not one size fits all. And some of us don't believe in salvation. Enlightenment, more like it. And I do think Islam is a sham, as well as judiaism, as well as religious Buddhism (fanatical theolgoical buddhism), and religious Taoism (w/ a pantheon of gods and the focus on immortality). As for philosophical Buddhism and Taoism....I agree 100%. Like MA, relgion is best when stripped of superstition, gods, and all that ethereal bull****.

IF relgion were soooo true, it would be self-evident. But Christianity is not. it has to be taught. The essence of its philsophy is self-evident. but it's theology, morality, and history is not.

Hence, it is not true. Truths are self-evident. They are demonstrable. Christianity cannot be demonstrated. Kindness can. Charity can. But they're not exclusive to Christianity. I'm an atheist, and I'm kind, and I'm charitable. Religion made me miserable. Atheism stripped away those illusions and helped me become a better person.

Funny how that works. People are people now, not possible converts, or ****ed for eternity heathens.

[Anthony]

Wookie.........Youre entitled to your opinion, that's all I can say. So Good Luck with all that.

If I had all the free time in the world I wouldn't debate it extensively. There are better things to do. Like I said above.....

"In my opinion it was the intelligent way out. At what point do you realise that a debate is a waste of time-especially with people you don't know and who aren't exactly authorities on the subject. To me faith, by it's very nature, is not debatable. "

[Shaolin Wookie]

True......but sometimes talking about our own religious experiences is therapeutic for ourselves, as well. I think I derive the most benefit from my needless ranting :D (oh, and I know I'm out of line half the time:eek: ):o . I never get the opportunity to talk constructively with people. My family is uber-religoius, with two pastors in it, my girlfriend's catholic......whenever I want to talk religion, people just roll their eyes....like, oh man, here come's the bull....:rolleyes: Here, on a web-board, it's less personal.

And since this is the thread where we're airing out our religious grievances....

What's everyone's take on this?

http://www.leftbehindgames.com/


I saw that part while I was in Best Buy:

"Conduct physical & spiritual warfare : using the power of prayer to strengthen your troops in combat and wield modern military weaponry throughout the game world. "

WTF????!!!!

I thought it was hilarious. The whole "Left Behind" phenomenon is extraordinarily popular in the religious community (the pastors in my family read them vigorously...but my attempts to get them to read Twain's "Captain Stormfield's visit to Heaven" were met with....I don't know what you might call it...maybe...amusement). To be honest though, I've never read the Left Behind books. My cousins forced me to watch the movie (They actually tackled me and held me down [and some of them are rather weighty, if you get my drift] when I tried to turn it off three times or so.) It was baaaaaad. Really bad.

That Left Behind crap supernaturalizes religion worse than anything. It, more than any other production, seems to take religion into the realm of evangelical malarkey than any other.....

But it would be cool to use prayer to slay the Demon Horde, utilizing modern military weaponry when it didn't do anything to stop the Demons from spreading their evil germ, that is......:D

"Conduct warfare using the power of PRAYER and WORSHIP as more powerful weapons than guns." (But not more powerful than my kung fu, beeyatch!!!)

"Control more than 30 units types - from Prayer Warrior and Worship Leaders to Spies, Special Forces and Battle Tanks!"

"Play multiplayer games with the Tribulation Forces or the AntiChrist's Global Community Peacekeepers with up to eight players via LAN or over the Internet!"

Hell, I'd pick the AntiChrist's Global Comm. Peacekeepers (sounds more likeable than Tribulation Forces anyways, plus I'm sure they have cooler abilities and powers, and cooler demon summoning) just to **** with these kids.

I feel sorry for these kids. They can't play cooler online games? Parents lament the needless violence in shooters/RPG's......but isn't this spiritually-engendered violence in video games even worse? Violence with a message? The only game I ever learned anything from a game was Metal Gear Solid: sons of liberty....and it was after I broke 50,000 necks as a government spook. It made a strange leap into metaphysics that got me thinking about Descartes. At least it didn't tell me I was breaking necks to forward the cause for Christ....

If we're going to give kids something cool to play with, why not a Salem Sims: World of Witchcraft? Hell, they could join the NeoInquisition and "extrapolate" information from witches and the Demonic forces of the Enemy by means of "prayer"....or modern military weaponry.....whichever does the deed?

[JDK]

Shaolin Wookie..oyu asked for opinions.....:D

And since this is the thread where we're airing out our religious grievances....

What's everyone's take on this?

http://www.leftbehindgames.com/

There are 3 main schools of thought and interpretation on the Second Coming of Jesus.

1)Intpretation #1 and most popular The Lord will supernaturally take away all true born-again christians from the planet...just prior to a seven year Period the Bible calls The Great Trbulation
This intepretaton states that Jesus comes invisbley in the air and his children are
taken up to Heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4 is the most popular "proof text for this position
[i]4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are dead, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are dead.

4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4:18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words



2)Intepretation #2, less popular The true believers will have to go through the first 3/12 years of the Tribulation..THEN be raptured ( taken to Heaven suddenly)

Re 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Re 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


3) Intepretation # 3...waaaaay less Popular.. True Believers go through the entire seven year Great Tribulation Period under the Global Dominance of the Anti-Christ ( called the Beast in the Bible) and most are killed for their refusal to recant their faith in Christ.

Daniel 7:25
And he( the AntiChrist) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered (5681) after the beast.

13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

13:6
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

JDK

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.eternalforces.com/characters.aspx

1st guy: "Do NOT alienate them – and for heaven’s sake – do not attack them. Things will likely get crazy on the streets really fast – be careful, and mindful of your goal. " HAHAHA....sounds like this forum.

Special Abilities: None

That's friggin' cold, dude. No special abilities? How about the power of disbelief? Can't even **** and light it on fire?

"Doctor (Level 3 Healer)

Special Abilities: Pray, Heal, Emergency, Cure Disease

Doctors are superb medical experts, ready to heal any physical injuries and cure disease caused by a lack of food. "

They've got all these spiritual warriors....WTF do they need a doctor for????!!!:D

"Influencer (Level 2 Recruiter)

Special Abilities: Swear, Recruit, Super Sight, Set Rally

The Influencer can call upon limited, local GC resources to provide details on the neighborhood – finding enemy & Neutral forces, as well as viewing the entire map briefly. "


Well, swearing is pretty cool, but I didn't know it was a special ability......I just thought it was...well, swearing.:o Little did I know I was a Lvl. 1 Influencer.

"Band Member (Level 2 Musician)

Special Abilities: Swear, Play

Band Members and Recording Artists are always willing to play their latest hit for you, even if you don’t want to hear it. "

I swear to you, I'm not making this **** up.....this is priceless!!!!:D Man, **** it!!! I'm buying this ****!!!!!!