Fook Sao

[drleungjohn]

Where in kung fu do we see same or similar Fook Sao hand positions-NOT INCLUDING SOUTHERN SHORTHAND SYSTEMS like White Crane,Southern Dragon,etc...

Tan and Bong "shapes" are easily found in Hung Kuen and others--but fook sao-kinda curious...

[Shaolin Fist]

Excluding the Southern Shorthand Systems ? So are you looking for similar Fok Sau positions within the Northern kf styles ?

Also just curious what systems do you include in the 'others' ?
found in Hung Kuen and othersas i always thought most Southern systems used Fok Sau...even though their application might vary......but then i might be mistaken !

[Dan_chi_sau]

i have a friend who lives in oz who trains koyokshin karate, he visited last summer. We sparred a little, and discussed forms/kata for a while. I showed him a fuk sau and he commented that they have the same thing. We discussed it a bit in terms of application and it was similar in some respects. There were a few similarities in form that day, was interesting.

[drleungjohn]

Northern Mantis uses a similar shape,some Karate,CLF also similar shapes

[Hendrik]

what is fok sau? or another way to put it what is the shape and the function of fok sau?

[Shaolin Fist]

'drleungjohn'

Yes agreed Northern Mantis does use the Fok Sau and in my opinion one of the styles which expresses the Fok in its multitude of uses.

Karate borrowed its Fok from White Crane and CLF if i am not mistaken is another Southern style.

Fok Sau expression can be used for : Opening, anti Chi Na, Deflecting strikes, controlling inside and outside flank arm position,Breaking structure, Pressing, Striking, basically it is in my opinion the most flexible tool used in Bridge control....................

[Paul T England]

The shape does not Fook ' ing matter!

On a serious note, the concept of subdue, control, retain, sense and bridge are found in most martial arts I think.

Paul

[Shaolin Fist]

The shape does not Fook ' ing matter!

Couldn't have put it better myself :D

The Fok is just a reference for teaching just like the term Kick and like all gereral teaching methods we start with a Shape.

[leejunfan]

Fook'em if they can't take a Jut :p

[Shaolin Fist]

If their elbow is out Fook'em..............If their Jong is in your way Fook'em.............If your wrists are grabbed Fook'em.................If someone opens your arms up Fook'em

So it really doesn't matter what the Fook they do :D Just Fook everything :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

IMHO,
The language has evolved...

IMHO,

what today was called fook in the old time say 1850's is a few different things.

1, Kaam, or cover,
2, On, or cover and press down
3, Koong, or push forward with the back of the knockle /palm.


Same with Tan, Tan is the palm up with a high of the most is shoulder high.
Tan which is higher then shoulder or Today's high Tan is called Chao. different mechanism for operation...



so, there actually 5 different type of technics using two names currently. IMHO

[byond1]

Hmmmm, what is a fook???

Do you mean the Horizontally Held hand found in H.K WCK??? Or the dogs Paw from TWC? Or the Darp from YKS? Or Gung Sao?
Are we talking Shape??? Or are we talking about Jing, these are differant.

Are you using the term fook, as a name for the Hand position, or is Fook an energy or is fook a concept. Both; None.

IMO we have Physical Structures that are independent of the Jing, though 1 physical structure may exemplify a particular Concept and Jing Pattern, but in no way should be limited to that.
So If we say Fook i see...controling energy.
And that controling energy can be applied from any structure, but would be exemplfied in YKS darp. IE Join than Control

Someone states Fook appears in other arts. Which fook?? Structure.??..energy?? Both. Neither.
Many of the Old style WCK systems contain Fook, that can be found in White crane. But many of the modern physical structures that are used as Fook, are modern and not found in other arts, as they were pioneered by WCKers.

B

[Shaolin Fist]

Personally from what i have seem there are many more uses for the Fok expression outside of WC in other Southern systems, but as mentioned before maybe that is due to name change.

And i am sure even some instructors dont know what the Fook is used for and whenever they cant think of a good answer they inevitable say its to 'Develop Chi' But its the only part except the punching that is repeated 3 times so it must be Damm important expression or tool for it to be repeated that many times :confused:

[k gledhill]

What is fook sao...?
fook sao is only to recover the elbow if you are bridged , to me : example if someone raises their arm as bong/ block /raising arm as you strike them and my punch is interupted . When we do chisao the fook sao is doing this to become second nature elbow control/ recovery...ie, we fight in freeflow without pre contact...I hit someone who happens to raise their arm under mine...from the training I hold my position/elbow low but not rigidly and let them raise the arm too much and strike underneath or maintain a trap , but never leaving my centered position so in essence letting the guy move and showing me how my structure can enter his ...no obstructions and we hit...common errors in scenarios are to leave an extended arm /punch too long in a long lever to be controlled at the elbow by joint locks etc......in dan chisao after punching and the partner responds by doing bong sao, we drop the elbow into fook to recover the elbow position as part of the 'checklist'....then add the 2 arms in chisao our fook being a 'punch' that becomes a bridege on /neutral arm position that has been blocked ....it can become 'whatever ' through everyones individual chisao levels...thats how i think anyway...:D also because the partner doing correct bong height gives us a sense of positional awarenes to elbow height good bad /to high / off line..moving away moving forwards......if the guy overturns his position and 'gives' us a trap we are there already from position not a thought of recovering the position , leaving it too late perhaps to take advantage.

I hit, you block , i dont let my elbow stay extended [fook] and keep attacking...

no chi invloved just sound knowledge/control of shoulder girdle muscle group & body/leg structure.


by the way this action in realtime takes a nano second [ nano ? ] so all the chisao is giving us this elbow control feeling of being lifted /recovery etc.. in a split second allowing us to blitz and flow like water crashing onto rocks ...

[TenTigers]

yeppers like peppers-fook is within Hung-Kuen. In fact every shape found in WC will be found in Hung Kuen's Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen and other pillar sets, due to common roots. Application depends on energy given-could be fook, gum, moor,Hok Yik,ad nauseum.

[Hatsuyuki]

One of my training partners is a Karate guy. He uses a Fook hand shape. Difference is it's an upward block, raising his hand up the centerline, and defecting with the wrist.

[k gledhill]

The bottom line is every martial art in the world only has to hold up an 'arm' and it might look like fook sao to us ...BUT the thinking behind it can be a myriad of uses..gojukarate [hard/soft karate roots in white crane] has similarities to vt in simultaneous impact deflection aka linsil di da , but only done low across low line strikes ,because their elbow structure/position, wont allow the same SLT concept to work on a high line as vt does , they use fook-sao~ ish 'looking' actions, but done to intercept in short bridge methods underneath , before double finger pokes etc...1-2 actions .... from the same mother but a distant relative. Similarities, because we all have 2 arms and 2 legs...but get below the surface beyond 'skin & hair' and they reveal themselves, not being similar at all !

[Todai]

The bottom line is every martial art in the world only has to hold up an 'arm' and it might look like fook sao to us ...BUT the thinking behind it can be a myriad of uses.

Exactly how i would answer. And your decription in your previous post was a great visualization as well. My sifu always pressed the importance of intention over mechanics. Todai asks, "Sifu why does your fook look different?" Sifu would respond that his fook is where he needs it to be because of his skill level. The beginning student performs the fook as it is in the first form in order to train proper intention, but as you progress there may be little difference in appearance b/w a fook and gong and a biu.

[k gledhill]

....one other thing about the repetition 3x, it signifies importance in the system. The fook 'hand' is not the focus but the path the elbow/wrist takes from vusao out and back ...very important concept of sweeping the center from the rear attacking hand [vu ] and taking the wrist across and the elbow touching the center/central line... back to the hitting zone .[ we x our sternum/chest but hit the nose ] ie the vu is not on the center the wrist is. The elbow being the key player ...the only time we do 'elbows in' during our daily life is when ? ;) SLT. slowly to develop endurance of this simple concept...3 x's for as long as you can [ guidelines I have been given , to move so slowly it doesnt look like its moving] ;
doing [ non maximal ] dynamic isotonic [ moving & same tension ], pec major contractions to control the position of fook / tan/ jum etc.. elbow. But 'when' to apply the alternative elbow 'retaining' force is relative only to an incoming line of force on our forearms [ inside gate or outside ] both still hitting a->b , is learnt as we do dan chi ...etc.
FOOK !! ...its more than just an arm in the air ! but so simple when its working .:D