Weijia vs. Neijia .....yes, again!!!!

[Fu-Pow]

This was a response I posted to the Weijia vs. Neijia article on cyberkwoon. You can read it there if you like. I thought the article was totally off...anyways here's my response I thought it might be of benefit to some of you other neijia/weijia players.

I think that this article misses some important points. The point of internal arts is that they teach you to strip away uneccessary muscle movement from day one. This is why the internal arts are practiced slowly at first because if you are exerting more muscle tension than necessary it becomes painfully obvious. You should be able to stop at any point in the movement should feel as though you are standing in "Wuji" stance. A natural consequence of this removal of muscle tension (ie sung) is a feeling of "peng" or internal connection. It is a kind of warm buoyant feeling. Once you have achieved this feeling throughout the form, you can increase the speed of the movements and as a consequence the "power". In the internal arts if one parts move all parts move. Movement begins from the center. This is a natural consequence of being relaxed.

By contrast, external arts utilize more muscle tension. They are less concerned (although not totally unconcerned!) with relaxation/peng and more concerned with the execution of correct technique. In the muscular sense, Choy Lay Fut is more relaxed than an art like karate. But unlike Taiji it would be difficult for us to stop at any point in the form with out using localized muscles to hold our arm or leg in position. In Choy Lay Fut we rely on "centrifugal force" in our movements. This outward force allows us to relax the arm and shoulders in the movement but if we are not moving then it becomes difficult. In addition, it requires some muscular force to get the intial intertia going. Then we are relaxed throught the movement. And we tense slightly at the end of the movment to stop it. It would be very difficult to stop the movement once it was started. That is, if I start to execute a Sao Choy it would be very difficult for me to stop the movement mid flight and hold my arm out straight.

Again, in contrast, in Taiji I should be able to stop at any point in the form and I should be relaxed...as if in Wuji.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[RAF]

Check this out and any other potential links:

http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/neijia.htm

[Fu-Pow]

Chi-Shmi

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[PlasticSquirrel]

"external" and "internal" are very poor ways of describing the systems we have today. many external stylists have far more internal power than many internal stylists. the fundamental difference is how qi is controlled (using mind or slight tension). besides that, in internal styles, you learn to control qi right away. in external styles, this is not taught right away. in the advanced stages, though, both sides are very complex.

it's a shame that "external" stylists, which have in the past been famous for being able to strike a person without touching him, making their bodies light, or resisting blades, have a generation that is viewed as being a group of dumb jocks.

all styles are internal and external. it's just when you are taught each part in training, to what degree, and in what manner.

look at tid kiu sam. one of the greatest boxers in china's history. one of the ten tigers. he practiced a style that he learned from a monk that used tension, relaxation, and sounds to control qi. it's a pity that he's looked down upon by people who think that their styles are high and mighty. did i mention his "1000 pound horse stance"? an excellent example of his levels of accomplishment.

everything from stance keeping, xiao zhoutian, da zhoutian, fajin. all of these "internal" buzzwords are in shaolin as well. in china sometimes they say that the energy of taijiquan is like water, xingyiquan is like fire, baguazhang is like a tornado, and shaolin is like lightning. of these, the jin from shaolin is implied to be the most direct and strongest. how can this be if it uses "stupid" strength, or using the muscles is considered to be a poor way of training?

:rolleyes:

it seems that we're too mature to still believe that there is such a difference in the styles we deem "internal, and the ones deemed "external."

[Fu-Pow]

Chi is a real crappy word because it can mean so many things. I think it often used to describe things when there is not a better word.

External arts are not inferior as far as fighting capability goes. In fact, they are easier to learn and apply. But the fact is that as you age your muscles degenerate. Sad but true. So you have two choices. Either find a way to fight relying very little on muscle power or get your butt kicked by younger, stronger opponents.

Internal arts and exernal arts end up in similar places. That is... relaxed and relatively tension free. Look at most martial arts and you'll find that at the higher levels things become more circular and relaxed, taking advantage of coiling movements. In addition the higher forms concentrate on hitting precision targets that inflict a lot of pain and damage as opposed to just battering your opponent.

It is just that Taiji start learning to relax first, then add power and speed. Not only that, but they have developed relaxation to the nth degree throught the concept of "peng."

The Chi concept as used by Tit Kiu Sam is totally different than the concept in Taiji. Iron Wire or Iron Shirt is a combination of breathing and flexing that excites the muscles to higher state of energy. It also closes you off to pressure point attacks. It basically teaches you how to withstand a blow. It would be useless for Taiji because so little muscle is really ever used.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

This thread has reminded me. It seems like cyberkwoon is plagarizing a whole lot of articles for it's site. Which wouldn't be so bad, except that they DO run it as a profit-making business. This has bothered me since the first time I went there, but I haven't said anything about it.

Am I crazy, or has someone else noticed this? Do you think it's appropriate to say anything?

[PlasticSquirrel]

just wanted to try to dispel any notions about some topics before we get a big tangled mess of stuff on the thread.

i don't say that either side is better. in fact, i don't really believe in sides, but under the presumption that there are, neither is better in my opinion. the timing of getting "good" at your style is totally different between styles, though.

i agree that qi is used pretty abstractly. i try to use it in a bit of a more narrow way, but it's tough sometimes. things like luck, presence, liveliness, body temperature, jin, etc. i don't consider qi. i usually think of qi as being strictly the bioelectromagnetic energy that manifests itself with different sensations to us. the only standard way that i've found of sensing it is a sensation of substance. you feel as if something is there, like where your yi is, that area is full and substantial. i've felt all sorts of stuff, though, including the shower of qi i got during meditation that opened most every part of me. like my whole body filled with electricity. :)

[Fu-Pow]

Just a side note. When we think of Yi we think of "mind". When we think of mind we think of "brain." But to the old chinese the "mind" actually resided in the heart. Therefore, are we really talking about the same thing? Or does the heart lead the mind? If it is the heart. Then alot of martial arts are lead by the heart.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Felipe Bido]

Yi is more applied to "Intention"..or will to do something. Not the process of thinking what you would do, but the feeling or intention to do it.

Un ratón no pone su confianza en un solo hoyo.

[dedalus]

It's interesting when people claim to practise traditional styles that are both internal and external. I know what that's meant to mean - that there are internal and external characteristics. Strictly speakin, though, internal arts are of a taoist origin, and external arts are of a buddhist origin. I can't think of many lineages that blend the two historical sources coherently.

Incidentall, I like your characterisations, Fu Pow - I've not considered some of those points before.

I wonder if I might put a slightly more controversial topic to the board - in terms of characteristics rather than origins, do you think that someone who was encountering it for the first time think that Chen style taiji was internal or external?

[HuangKaiVun]

To my knowledge, traditional Chen Taiji has both a tremendous amount of "internal" training as well as "external" stuff.

Doesn't the traditional Chen style (as practiced by Chen Xiaowang) feature a lot of the body-hardening exercises similar to those contained in the "Iron Wire" set of Tit Kiu Sam?


As stated above, "internal" and "external" are very poor ways of describing kung fu styles - especially old ones like baji and Seng Men and tongbei and fanzi whose roots go centuries back beyond Choy Li Fut or Taijiquan.

Younger faster opponents are ALWAYS a problem - regardless of who the master or what the style is. And it is simply incorrect to assume that an external master could not take out a younger opponent, particularly since "younger" doesn't necessarily mean "stronger" in the context of the TCMAs.

That stopping the move in the middle is a characteristic not just of Taiji, but many other old styles as well.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I wonder if I might put a slightly more controversial topic to the board - in terms of characteristics rather than origins, do you think that someone who was encountering it for the first time think that Chen style taiji was internal or external?
[/quote]

Depends on how you define encountering. If someone was to watch chen taiji performed they would think it was external, flowery and probably not very useful. However, if they got hit full force by a Chen Taiji practitioner they might have a little bit different story. There is a lot of stuff going on "inside" the Chen form (ie body mechanics) that is not readily observable...internal "mechanations" ...that gives it an "unseen" power. These internal mechanations result from attempting to keep the muscles relaxed. You have to find another way to move.

Choy Lay Fut on the other hand is like a system of spinning weights and levers. There is not a lot that is unseen. Choy Lay Fut is in a sense, fluid, but it is more like an overpowering wave. Once it starts it is hard to stop. It crashes down on you with its own momentum.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Doesn't the traditional Chen style (as practiced by Chen Xiaowang) feature a lot of the body-hardening exercises similar to those contained in the "Iron Wire" set of Tit Kiu Sam?

[/quote]

I don't think so. But I'm not an expert by anymeans. This kind of training seems like it might be kind of antithetical to Taiji. Force vs. Force I mean.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As stated above, "internal" and "external" are very poor ways of describing kung fu styles - especially old ones like baji and Seng Men and tongbei and fanzi whose roots go centuries back beyond Choy Li Fut or Taijiquan.
[/quote]

I don't know alot about other styles only the ones that I've practiced which are Tae kwon do, a little aikido, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut and Chen Taiji. These are just differences that I've noticed between CLF and Taiji. They have been classified as external and internal by somebody else. There are differences. I have heard that arts like Tongbei are somewhere in between. Maybe more muscle tension than Taiji but less than Choy Lay Fut. Or something like that.

There are movements that we do in CLF that would be considered an "error" in Taiji. Mainly because they rely on muscle. I could theoretically modify my CLF forms to conform to the principles of Taiji, but it would probably end up looking something like Taiji (ie I would no longer be doing CLF.) Rest assured I have no intention of doing that.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[illusionfist]

First and foremost, Iron Wire and Iron Shirt are two totally different things. Iron Wire is nei gung oriented. Iron shirt (ala golden bell, etc) is a means to an end. When we practice iron wire, we do not practice for iron shirt ability, we practice it for internal cultivation.

As for stopping in mid move and going back to wu chi, that is only within the context of the form. Try and perform the move in real life in a dynamic situation, you wont be able to stop it either. That is the distinction between "external" really. Most "external" systems have fighting forms which are performed at fighting speed. For an "internal" example of this, check out the Wu style fast form.

Peace :D

[bamboo_ leaf]

IMHO,

The speed of something, softness, fluidness. Doesn’t matter much. Although some types of training may tend to emphasize the development of LI (strength) is this bad? I think only when a person uses LI and says this is internal strength.

We seem to want to be able to define things into a very ridged fixed state. From my experience CMA is not so neatly divided. It seems that we tend to focus on the part that we can see and label it. With out really having a common understanding.

Very hard to do in this medium, I think this is an understanding that can only be arrived at by experience and practice. Some may never, be able to really use this type of energy, why? There are many reasons but I think the most basic one is that they don’t believe it and have no direct experience with someone who can do it.

Most CMA talk about Shen(sprit) YI(mind) and CHI(inner engery) these are very high level concepts, I believe that they can only be addressed by direct experience. Only those that have had this experience can really appreciate the difficulty in addressing this idea in this format. I feel that many here really believe they have this experience but find it difficult to express.

Dose one make you better then the other seems to be the real unspoken question. My own answer would be what can you really do. This is called searching for the far, and missing the near. What you can do and understand will be the way your training takes you.

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[HuangKaiVun]

Chen Taijiquan DEFINITELY has its hard elements, Fu-Pow.

The traditional Chen style as practiced today by Chen Xiaowang and Ren Guanyi are filled with powerful fa-jing throughout the sets.

I don't see why practicing powerful fa-jing and resistance to body blows are antithetical to Taijiquan, particularly because those two aspects are HALLMARKS of not just Chen, but Yang and Wu styles. Just look at Nigel Sutton's book "Applied Tai Chi Chuan" to see this in practice.

"Force vs. force" is often necessary, especially in the context of a real fight. Taijiquan practitioners retain the ability to sink their qi to resist being forced out of their root by opponents.


Then there are arts like HsingYiQuan that are called "internal" but have obvious "external" traits.

This is why the "internal" vs. "external" thing can never be resolved.

[bamboo_ leaf]

This is why the "internal" vs. "external" thing can never be resolved.

What is there to resolve? Those that really know it have nothing to resolve.
Those that do not, cannot understand it except by direct experience. Even then they may never be able to do it,they seek the far overlooking the near. Or some might say the result with out the real practice.

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[illusionfist]

There is nothing to resolve. You can't have one without the other. Separate and you stagnate.

Peace :D

[Kumkuat]

What are some of those "external traits" in Xingyiquan, HuangKaiVun?

[Fu-Pow]

I can see that once again that this has been reduced to a "you can't define internal/external" argument. Well, I completely disagree and say that you can. Why? Because I've been studying 2 different arts. One is categorized as internal the other external. They are very different. How many of you guys seriously study arts that are placed in both categories? I know Illusionfist is a Hung Ga player. What experience do you have in "internal arts"?

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Kumkuat]

I also have studied in both categories, and I feel that there is a difference. External arts can claim that they are relaxed, but some of them are not "relaxed" as in the internal arts. They probably have some area of tension that they're not aware of. Or they actually tense up at the point of contact, thus losing the peng path.

They also claim that they use the ground when in effect it's more like external stylist use the ground for support or to push off of to get the power of the strikes and not actually use the ground (or actually "be" the ground as Yan GaoFei puts it).

[Fu-Pow]

I'm glad we're on the same wavelength Kumkuat.
Good point about "pushing off the ground" and "being the ground." Pushing implies muscular effort, whereas being implies a connection but one that is "un-muscular" in nature.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[illusionfist]

Well, i learned Sun lineage tai chi, hsing yi, and bagua before hung gar. I only practice the tai chi now, but i do have experience with the other two.

I also have a good amount of experience with Chen style (both Lau Jia and Xin Jia) because that was my tai chi teachers mother system.

Of course on a tactile, crust level the arts are gonna look different. When i examine anything i do, i focus on the energies involved with the faht. I find a lot of similarities between faht played in hsing yi (and subsequently sun tai chi) and hung gar actually. The ging is what i'm looking at primarily.

If you look at some of the examples in Chen (which i think you do Fu Pow), they are very much a kin to some moves found in Hung Gar, and also performed with the same energy. I believe this is due in part to Chen having Shaolin roots. Moves such as Hu Hsin Choi (chen) (guarding heart punch) and our (hung gar's) black tiger fist have the exact same energy (and for the most part physical shape). Bian Pao (firecracker) is exactly the same as our gold splitting fist technique (in shape and energy).

Peace :D

[illusionfist]

As for the ground reference, its the same in Hung Gar as well. We always "borrow energy from the ground." The thousand pound horse stance has nothing to do with weight, it deals with rooting.

A lot of the internal/external stuff just shows a a practitioners depth of understanding. As the practitioner grows, the "internal" becomes more evident. The more you know, the more you can use.

Peace :D

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for stopping in mid move and going back to wu chi, that is only within the context of the form. [/quote]

You don't get it. Every move IS wu chi!!!! There should be no more muscle tension than when you are standing in wuji!!! Seems impossible, but this is one of the major goals of Taiji.

I think that people that say there is no difference either are getting crappy instruction or they don't study on both ends of the spectrum.
It's totally ludicrous.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[bamboo_ leaf]

No you don’t get it.

How can you expect any one to understand things that they can’t do or have no access to?

To insist that my way or anyone else’s way is the only way seems not very TC like. To much force.

Pointing directly to the way, show us the emptiness you speak of.

yes what you speak of is possible, really relax, don't use force.

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[Lost_Disciple]

Man, there's some Mo Duk for yah...

Sh*t I should keep my mouth shut.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[illusionfist]

Well frankly Fu Pow, that shows you dont understand the first two postures of your form then. You CANT have wu chi in every posture cuz you are "empty" and "full" which is the embodiment of Tai Chi. Analysis of Gung Chi and Yau Chi is the key. Wu Chi would denote absence my friend- void. Wu Chi is the goal of the player, but we start from it as well. Paradox is a funny thing in CMA.

Peace :D

[Braden]

Philosophically speaking, wuji should be present in taiji, despite the fact that they seem to be mutually exclusive. This is inherent in the nature of a holistic cosmology.

How much your martial practice reflects this, well... I guess you've both allready discussed that. ;)

[HuangKaiVun]

Kumkuat, it depends on what people term "external".

Traditional Hsing I is a very powerful striking art that relies a lot on a rooted posture (especially the older Hsing I styles) and strong qi control.

illusionfist (who's studied the REAL kung fu, based on his concrete definitions of technique) could definitely tell you better than I can, but Hsing I is as strong an art as there is out there (particularly the "5 Elements", which once constituted the entire Hsing I style). That's not to say that it isn't soft either.


Similarly, baguazhang's higher levels have plenty of muscular energy discharge that emanate from the jing release of twisted hip energy accumulated in the Single and Double palm changes.


As for external arts that are "not relaxed", it depends on who's practicing it and what one means.

One can be relaxed AND muscular at the same time. Just look at Chen Xiaowang, who issues jings that require the use of muscular force as well as qi manipulation.

[dedalus]

HuangKaiVun...

How much power do you think could continue to be drawn from such strikes in bagua and xingyi at the hands of an elderly practitioner?

I agree that they require a degree of muscularity, but it's sort of indirect so far as vectors and whatnot go, isn't it? Twisting the body around the waist and other axes of the body is a differnt way to use muscle force compared to the striking mechanics of many styles...

Incidentally, what style do you practice? I looked up your profile but I'm unfamiliar with Seng Men (and it didn't turn up on a web search)

[HuangKaiVun]

dedalus, A LOT OF POWER.

Ever see Li Zhi Min (80+ year old chairman of Red China's National Bagua Association)? If that guy hit you, it would HURT.

Bagua utilizes all of that "indirect stuff" that you mentioned. So does Hsing Yi and my native style, "Seng Men" (Monk Fist).

I also believe there is something to be said for the joint stiffening that happens with age. Though old men are obviously not as powerful as they were when they were younger, the fibrosis that takes place in the muscles and joints can generate a DIFFERENT kind of power than that younger guys can produce. David Carradine's book (actually written by Sifu Kam Yuen) calls these "old man techniques".


You won't find anything on my Seng Men style, at least NOT YET (am thinking of putting stuff out down the line).

There have been a few articles written in China on this VERY OLD style, according to my sifu who didn't write them himself. It is a style known among old-timers for its power and mobility.

So far, my sifu has yet to meet another Seng Men practitioner that wasn't a direct disciple of HIS sifu.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One can be relaxed AND muscular at the same time. Just look at Chen Xiaowang, who issues jings that require the use of muscular force as well as qi manipulation.

[/quote]


I think that you might be confused. The tension comes at the end of the movement when you must stop the arm (I'm talking about a punch) . You are essentially putting on the brakes.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>David Carradine's book (actually written by Sifu Kam Yuen) calls these "old man techniques".
[/quote]

The fact that you are quoting David Carradine has me concerned. The guy was an ACTOR!!!!

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> that shows you dont understand the first two postures of your form then. You CANT have wu chi in every posture cuz you are "empty" and "full" which is the embodiment of Tai Chi. [/quote]

Every posture being Wuji means that every posture should be as easy to hold as Wuji posture. And every point within the movement should be as easy to maintain as Wuji. I'm not making this up, this is straight from the lips of Feng Zhiquiang himself. This was the point that he stressed again and again in the seminar I attended this summer. I think it has to do with structural integrity. If you can't maintain the structure then you have to resort to external muscle power. Another way to call the structure would be the "frame."

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[wujidude]

You obviously have been out of touch with the bagua community for a while.

>Ever see Li Zhi Min (80+ year old chairman of Red China's National Bagua Association)? If that guy hit you, it would HURT.<

Li Ziming died in 1993 at about 91 years of age. He was quite stiff, weakened and frail of mind in his last decade, not at all able to hit or fend much for himself. The chances are that any hitting on his behalf would have been handled by Zhao Dayuan, Ma Chuanxu or other senior students.

Fibrosis as a source of power?? That's a new one, even for the classics of the internal arts.

You guys may be confusing internal power/strength with skill born of heightened sensitivity and tactical wisdom. Internal power as expressed in, say, fa jing is very real but declines after a certain age. Even as robust a master as Feng Zhiqiang says that he's felt its decline since about age sixty (he's 76 now). But this can be compensated for with increased sensitivity and awareness, and ability to move/focus all of your internal strength at the optimum point/angle. Being able to read/anticipate your opponent and respond more quickly with more focusing of your power is something one can cultivate even as one ages.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Every posture being Wuji means that every posture should be as easy to hold as Wuji posture. And every point within the movement should be as easy to maintain as Wuji. “

Reading this I can see that what he said is not what he meant. You misunderstood.

Wuji as I understand it means emptiness or stillness. Tai Chi is produced by the interaction of full and empty, or stillness and action.

Each contains elements of the other, for me TC is about working with this balance.

To achieve a state of Wuji, you have to completely relax all thoughts and tension in the body. Totally empty. Totally relaxed. The idea of TC begins with the intention of movement. The YI (mind) directs this intention the Chi follows (inner energy) and the body moves.

This is very hard to do, and hard to describe you really have to see and feel it. Many people here talk of a slight tension or something like that. This I think is incorrect also but it’s hard to say. The common question of ‘how do I move if I don’t use muscle LI (force). The mind intent is what really moves the CHI and your body will follow. Your hands seem to be floating, actions directed totally by the YI.

Again very, very hard to really do. Many don’t believe it so they never achieve the real thing.
Not believing, and following the correct way is why I think it takes awhile to get it, but once understood and felt it’s very apparent

If I may make a suggestion. Just work with the opening movement. Work with it until you can really make your hands raise with out using force LI. Once you can do this then you can work with the rest of the form.


I am sorry about my earlier post.

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[Fu-Pow]

Apology accepted.

I'm not really arguing with you. I'm just trying to put things in a physcial context.

Philosophically speaking, Wuji contains Taiji. So if you think about physically the frame could be considered Wuji and all the internal stuff going on inside, opening and closing, could be considered Taiji.

Just a thought. I'm kind of thinking out loud here as I try to figure some things out.

Thanks everyone for the input. Even if you don't agree with me.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[HuangKaiVun]

Carradine may be an actor, but his sifu Kam Yuen had a tremendous input on the book and actually intended to write the book himself before putting Carradine's name on it. Carradine says so himself in his intro.

Besides, Carradine is a legitimate martial artist in my book. If you practice kung fu, take lessons, and enjoy the training, you're a legitimate martial artist 100% and nobody can take that away from you.

The 2nd part of Carradine's book is great stuff. Anybody who chooses not to read it just because Carradine is an actor is not worthy of that mind-improving material anyhow.


I saw some video footage of Li Zhi Min when he was in his 80s, which is why I mentioned 80+.

Sure he couldn't move the way he once could, but he had OBVIOUS power and definitely knew exactly what he was doing.


There are many more ways of issuing power than you've been taught, Fu-Pow.

The power generation you described above is typical of YOUR style, but there are many other external styles (e.g. Baji with its rolling continous linking attacks) that don't stop the jing at the end of the strike.


What illusionfist and I are basically saying is that there are techniques that you haven't been exposed to yet.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What illusionfist and I are basically saying is that there are techniques that you haven't been exposed to yet.
[/quote]

Well....La ti da.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[yin lion]

not sure how to spell his name but hes the head guy in the yin fu style bagua sence the dr. retired.

anyway he was saying anyone who trys to tell you to be completely soft has no clue what hes talking about and should not be listed to (weather this is true or not I'm not sure I'm unclear on tai chi training methods). This sounded strange at first then he explained that in china everyone and his brother does tai chi but not real tai chi. they want to push hands with him and when he finds and moves their center they fall and get up saying that he is using to much force.
He said it is not softness alone because you would not be standing if you were the softest you could be. infact he said it's the combining of hard and soft that make a art worth your while.

I just want to note that we worked on forms or changes and postures they are very hard to hold not easy to relax into. that is sort of an example of combining of internal and external, hard and soft: you are externaly hard and internaly soft. although externaly hard is not always muscle tention; in the dragon system most of the strength comes from the tendons being used. ;)

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

[Braden]

Internal:External != Soft:Hard

[Fu-Pow]

Internal=More movement on the inside than the outside

External=More movement on the outside than the inside

Internal=Soft on the outside, hard on the inside

External=Hard on the outside, soft on the inside

Internal=Very relaxed muscles

External=Lightly tense muscles

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

:D

[PlasticSquirrel]

in external styles, however you move externally is also manifest internally. this is because the slight tension leads qi into the muscles a bit.

much more importantly than that, though, the areas between the the muscles where the main channels (i use this as a generic term that could mean vessels, meridians, or channels) that qi passes through are filled, because the qi is constricted from being in the muscles too strongly. displacement, i guess.

whenever you're real relaxed, qi moves wherever it wants to (i.e. both deep into the arm and at the surface). when you're constricting your muscles, it can better run through the larger channels and stuff, because they are located where muscles are not (at least in between them). this is why they say that the jin of shaolin quan is like lightning, while the jin of taijiquan is like water.

so, there is just as much internal movement as external in both "internal" and "external" styles. it's just where the movement is located and directed.

just my stab at it. ;)

[bamboo_ leaf]

can you do this?
is this what you feel?


Just wondering. Please excuse.

These are very high-level things to talk of and question.

I think the level of the answer should reflect your experience and understanding.
Other wise it’s pointless to say my teacher said, this book said.

We are talking and helping each other to understand some rather difficult things.
not about being right or wrong.

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> whenever you're real relaxed, qi moves wherever it wants to (i.e. both deep into the arm and at the surface). when you're constricting your muscles, it can better run through the larger channels and stuff, because they are located where muscles are not (at least in between them). this is why they say that the jin of shaolin quan is like lightning, while the jin of taijiquan is like water.
[/quote]

Hmmm...you are implying a connection between Traditional Chinese Medicine and Martial arts. I tend to think this connection is wishful thinking
at best. There are a lot of books out there that try to make this connection but, again, I think it is wishful thinking. Instead of thinking about Chi as some sort of bioelectric energy, I think of if more as a sensation that is a result of proper movement. For example the feeling of "peng" could be considered a result of proper body alignment and getting rid of localized tension. However, it feels like your body is warm and buoyant and full of "Chi."

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I usually try to avoid these threads but I just can't restrain myself. *Sigh,* another weakness to resolve.

Fu-Pow, I have to say that you are quite mistaken to think there is no connection between Chinese martial arts and Chinese medicine. Its called physical-culture, and the connection is as close as it is between Bio-medicine and modern sport. Central to Chinese martial arts, especially the "internal" styles, are the concepts of the nature of physical, psychological and emotional existence. These are part of the Chinese world-view and so are unavoidable if you want to go deeply into the arts.

Certainly these things can be ignored if all you desire is pragmatic boxing skills. Even done mechanically the potential of structure, connection and short power will overcome most leaping-about styles. Just look at how prevalent the "don't philosophize just train" school of thought has become.

There is something else, however, and it cannot be reached with pragmatism alone. When does sensation become awareness and mobilization become movement? What is the real nature of human agression condensed into movement? What is the difference between tactical tricks and natural instinct? Its possible to reach into very high levels of martial skill that are beyond simple physics and are about the integration of conscious awareness in the physical motility of the body tissue. The basis of this understanding is in Chinese medicine.

In Chinese medicine Qi is not bio-electric energy, wrong paradigm. Qi is the interaction of some aspect of Yin and some aspect of Yang. It is a typical layman's mistake (common to many Taijiquan teachers, even/especially Chinese ones) to miss the point that Qi can only be discussed within the context of what it is the interaction between. What is the interaction of your physical limbs and your capacity for proprioception? With positive alignment and relaxed tissue the awareness potential is vastly increased, and the sensation is heightened = you feel the Qi.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[PlasticSquirrel]

i tend to agree with kevin on the issue of the connection between traditional chinese medicine and gongfu. just look at the sup ying kuen or the tid sin kuen of hung gar. very advanced and sophisticated, showing clear connections between traditional chinese medicine and gongfu (the sounds that resonate and stimulate the internal organs to energize them comes to mind). monks were known as they are in the west as having medical knowledge. wong feihung, the most influential orchestrator of modern hung gar, was a doctor of tcm, and showed it quite clearly in his sup ying kuen and his love of the tid sin kuen.

yes, bamboo leaf, this is what i feel. not just empty theorizing. this is what i've mostly been working on lately. just observations, i guess. about the high-level things, these are pretty low-level compared to talking about things like golden bell cover (something i probably couldn't even begin to do) or even something like fajin, which everyone seems to talk about, but i haven't the slightest clue about. i guess i just need more practice. anyways, the tension has been making the central channels more full, and so maybe the energy will transfer outward soon. who knows. everything comes through time, i guess.

[Fu-Pow]

Well I guess my opinion stems from the fact that I think TCM is kind of B.S. and can be explained biophysically. Traditional Chinese Medicine was sophisticated for the time of its conception. But it is based on a kind of pseudo-science. Some of its practices may stand up to the rigors of modern science. But I think alot of it is hocus-pocus and its benefits can be explained as placebo effect.

Having said that. I do practice Taiji/Soft Chi Gung and have had some exposure to the hard Chi Gung breathing excercises of Hung Gar. In both cases I felt unexplainable sensations in my body.
Is that Chi? Well, I don't know if it was or not. But my teacher told me to do this certain excercise and it produced a certain sensation. Now, we can try to explain this as Chi and explain via TCM theory. Or we can try to explain these from the Western anatomical and scientific perspective. I don't really think it matters much. But on one hand we "Chi" on the other hand we just have physically explainable sensations.

So you might say the Taiji practice produces Chi that flows down this Channel and blah da blah da blah. And I might say that the sensation is a result of muscle relaxation and the gentle pushing and pulling of the tendons.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

"TCM is kind of B.S. and can be explained biophysically."

It can't though. Consider acupuncture, for example. There have been several attempts to explain it reductively to western biochemistry and physiology. I believe these attempts have been fruitfull, as they've increased our understanding of the discipline. However, they've as of yet not been entirely successfull.

"But it is based on a kind of pseudo-science."

Lots of things in this world arise from something other than the western empirical tradition, yet nonetheless hold validity.

"alot of it is hocus-pocus and its benefits can be explained as placebo effect."

Science itself has proven you wrong. Unless you've got some argument suggesting animal models are just as susceptible to the placebo effect as human models.

"I felt unexplainable sensations in my body. Is that Chi?"

No.

"on the other hand we just have physically explainable sensations."

I think you're confused about western science. Western science is not a field which encompases all statements that any given individual finds not to be mystical. (As being suggested here: 'I'm not using chi to explain it, therefore it's western science.') In the contrary, to be considered technically part of the western scientific domain a number of very specific qualifications must be met.

[Fu-Pow]

In another thread you stated that acupuncture can be used on animals. Could you please refer me to peer reviewed journal articles (and I mean peer reviewed by epidemiologists, not acupuncturists) that prove this to be true. Are we talking about one article, 2 articles , 10. Is there a significant body of evidence supporting this? Just curious, I'm not saying there isn't. I feel at a distinct disadvantage if you possess the article and I don't.

Secondly, I'm not stating that because something hasn't been proven by science that it doesn't exist. That's ludicrous. But people use the terms like meridians, Chi, channels very loosely. Yet no two people can even agree what Chi is. All we have is some mystical old books and some studies conducted by some very biased people. Namely, acupuncturists. They would have a great deal to lose if it was found that Chi was a punch of B.S.


Gotta go, but back soon.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

Acupuncture has become an accepted practice in the western medical community. This implies quite a bit concerned what testing has been done. And indeed, there is a relatively large literature body on the topic, by a variety of professionals and researchers.

I feel a little silly doing medline and literature searches for people, as I'm not more able to do them than anyone else, particularly on as accesible a topic as this; but I'll make a point of jotting down some references next time I'm in the library.

[PlasticSquirrel]

i saw acupuncture on a cat once. pretty funny-looking. the cat seemed happy enough, though. usually cats are always afraid of everything.

chinese have had many, many successful tests to find out what qi is. qigong masters were asked to transmit qi into different objects. every test has been positive. it is a combination of many different types of bioelectromagnetic energy, some of which can not be identified. other tests proved that qigong masters could change the molecular arrangement of objects. very interesting results.

remember that while western medicine was still using leeches and blood-letting 300 years ago, the chinese had an extremely advanced medical knowledge. thousands of years ago, chinese doctors discovered the circulatory system and distinguished between light and dark blood. europeans didn't find out about it until the 1600's. traditional chinese medicine has always been medical, and not alchemical. daoists practiced alchemy, but they were seperate.

p.s. as for the funny feelings, it could be qi, but we'd have to know what the sensations are first. usually signs are typically feelings of heat, coolness, water, electricity, or especially tingling. that isn't to say that if you get those sensations that it is qi, though.

[Braden]

Western medicine still uses leeches and blood letting.

[PlasticSquirrel]

*shivers at western medicine* :eek:

man, if qi turns out to be fake, then i've spent my whole summer standing around for nothing! ;)

[hasayfu]

I've also stayed out of this thread because it always ends in a you gotta be shown but Fu Pow has possibly shed some light for me.

He said "I think TCM is kind of B.S. and can be explained biophysically."

With this attitude, all styles will be different. Why? Becuase it takes the western root cause perspective. If the root of how you get somewhere defines where you are, then they will be different. The "root cause" of what so-called "External" and "Internal" styles produce are different. Dissecting these things will only highlight the differences.

Chinese culture in general takes a more holistic approach. The details of how the ends are reached is less important (not insignificant). So we know that the fire element affects the heart. Exactly how? There are differing theories and none of them adhere to the exacting methods of western science yet we know from empirical data it definitely does. Also, does it matter that Hung Gar and Hsing-I (just to name two styles I know) express fire differently on a physical level? No. The concept is the same.

On the otherhand, there are many TCM theories that western science has yet to find a model for. I don't believe it's just a matter of time. Even Einstein concluded in his later years that the Universe could not be modeled.

Back to Internal vs. External. Maybe you don't see the similarity because you are looking at the methods and only at the beginning stages. You can't fathom how the two can meet in the mature stages. In itself, that's ok. Trying to mix the two paths too early will defeat the purpose. The problem lies when you think you have reached high level before you have.

Conversely, by embracing the fact that they do meet, then looking at how the methods get you there and how it doesn't will improve your overall kung fu or at least guide you in the right direction.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Fu Pow, You dismiss the placebo effect as if its not at the heart of healing. A narrow prejudice that completely ignores the fact that minds and bodies are not actually seperated. A shorthand that has been useful for some deep biological understanding, but one that is rapidly losing its central place in bio-medicine.

I'm not going to do your research for you, opening your mind is not a responsibility I care to take on. Suffice to say that there are thousands of articles on veterenary acupuncture, how are your Chinese literacy skills? I believe that the International Veterenary Acupuncture Society has a website (www.ivas.org?) (http://www.ivas.org?)).
To dismiss Chinese medicine because of some folk misundersatndings is like dismissing science because most people believe that the moon is larger closer to the horizon. Clinical science is weak in the west because it is so young (pharmaceutical medicine didn't begin until the Flexner Report of 1910 and the subsequent melding of business and medical education), therefore experimental science rules. However, if your clinical investigation takes place over 2500 years you can eliminate most errors of conception through experience.

More importantly, if you try to understand internal martial arts only through the bio-medical paradigm you will inevitably make errors in conception. Some things are translatable from one worldview through another worldview but ultimatly precision will be lost at some point and the actual context of the information will be gone. How much are you willing to limit your ability to go to high level? Dong Haichuan, Yang Luchan, Ji Longfeng, and so on, all followed the Chinese model of physical existence, yet they were not hampered by being "unscientific."

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[illusionfist]

4000 years- thats one helluva placebo effect!!