Free your mind......

[leejunfan]

"Have you ever had the experience where you get a new car and then wherever you go, you car seems to be everywhere? Of if someone close to you is pregnant (or yourself), then you seem to see pregnant women everywhere? This heightened awareness is the result of the workings of a part of the brain near the brainstem called the Reticular Activating System, of RAS."
Guru Kevin Seaman & Sifu Jim Brault from the book The Winning Mind Set

They go on to describe something else of interest.....


"Have you ever had an experience like this? Your mom asks you to get the ketchup. You reply, "We don't have any ketchup, I used up the last bottle," to which she says that there is indeed ketchupand to please get it. So you hump over to where it is "supposed" to be, give a perfunctory look around, and proudly proclaim in your best I-told-you-so voice, "There isn't any." With perhaps some firm and rapid steps she comes right up behind you, reaches forward, and grabs a obottle of ketchup that just "magically" appeared before your very eyes and says "What is this?"

"Oh, ketchup ... I thought you said ..."

Its happened to us all. In fact, you may be happy to know that it happens so often tha there is even a psychological term for it. It's called a scotoma(which sounds infinitely better than stupid).

A scotoma is when your brain does not allow you to perceive someting that you do not believe exists. What you believe determines what you perceive, again linked to the RAS we talked about before."
Now why did I go through the trouble of typing this out for you... my kung fu brothers and sisters? To share in the wisdom of these words. You see...... in our family... the Wing Chun family..... there is a lot of bickering about who is right...who is wrong... what the true history is... and what is isn't, and after a while (quite quickly in fact) people are not listening to eachother completely. They are not truly "hearing" and "understanding" what the other has to say. This works to the detriment of our family and gives more power to those who would see us fail.

So I say this to you all: Open your mind and free yourselves of your Wing Chun ego's. Embrace everything Wing Chun.... good or bad... provide proof of your skills or lineage instead of resorting to the same old " 'cause Sifu said " excuses. Lip service does nothing to nurture our beloved WCK.

Amitabha

[couch]

Guru Kevin Seaman & Sifu Jim Brault from the book The Winning Mind Set

They go on to describe something else of interest.....


Now why did I go through the trouble of typing this out for you... my kung fu brothers and sisters? To share in the wisdom of these words. You see...... in our family... the Wing Chun family..... there is a lot of bickering about who is right...who is wrong... what the true history is... and what is isn't, and after a while (quite quickly in fact) people are not listening to eachother completely. They are not truly "hearing" and "understanding" what the other has to say. This works to the detriment of our family and gives more power to those who would see us fail.

So I say this to you all: Open your mind and free yourselves of your Wing Chun ego's. Embrace everything Wing Chun.... good or bad... provide proof of your skills or lineage instead of resorting to the same old " 'cause Sifu said " excuses. Lip service does nothing to nurture our beloved WCK.

Amitabha

But what if we lived in a world of fake lineage, fake video and fake photos?

Would all I see is fake Wing Chun?

Hmmmm.....

:)

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[leejunfan]

But what if we lived in a world of fake lineage, fake video and fake photos?

Would all I see is fake Wing Chun?

Hmmmm.....

:)

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

This is the type of negative thinking I am talking about. People will see only what they wish to see instead of comprehending this quote: "provide proof of your skills or lineage instead of resorting to the same old " 'cause Sifu said " excuses. Lip service does nothing to nurture our beloved WCK." A scotoma at work......

What does this mean?... this means to "prove" your skills and lineage with physical evidence to support your claims.... not just "sifu said". Faked photo's..... can be easily debunked, fake skills.... even easier to debunk. Again... open your mind to the world of WCK... the entire WCK family, and beautiful things can from from it.

Like I always say.... look for the bad... get the bad... look for the good.... get the good. If all one does is spend his time argueing this and that with everyone, they waste time they could have spent perfecting their WCK ;)

I've had the pleasure of training with some great people... legends so to speak.... but I did not go there thinking I had to prove something or "show off my skills". That kind of behavior is for the insecure and not very conducive to learning. Instead... I shut my mouth and listened intently to what the honored guest was saying. I have never been disappointed and made friends along the way :)

[drleungjohn]

-and I agree with everything you say-but let me give you some proof for the Yin side--

1-A humming bird and bumble bee is not suppose to be able to fly-based on experts
2-The one inch punch is not suppose to work-on paper
3-Medical Drs have admitted that cough syrup does nothing-but it's still sold
4-Experts said the world was flat
5-How many times have you taken in your car with complaints that something wsas wrong-when it was-and the expert told you there was nothing wrong?
6How many times have you gone to an MD and been told there is nothing you can do about it,that you'll have to live with it-then go down the street to a chirpractor,massage person,etc and get it fixed?

Beautiful Music is wasted on the deaf and wisdom is wasted on the unwise

or in wing chun speak-"A closed fist has no manners"

[anerlich]

Something of a corollary to all of the above from Marc "Animal" MacYoung:

"If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid".

[Tom Kagan]

-and I agree with everything you say-but let me give you some proof for the Yin side--

1-A humming bird and bumble bee is not suppose to be able to fly-based on experts
2-The one inch punch is not suppose to work-on paper
3-Medical Drs have admitted that cough syrup does nothing-but it's still sold
4-Experts said the world was flat
5-How many times have you taken in your car with complaints that something wsas wrong-when it was-and the expert told you there was nothing wrong?
6How many times have you gone to an MD and been told there is nothing you can do about it,that you'll have to live with it-then go down the street to a chirpractor,massage person,etc and get it fixed?

Beautiful Music is wasted on the deaf and wisdom is wasted on the unwise

or in wing chun speak-"A closed fist has no manners"


#1: Myth. Aeronautical Engineers have been able to explain why the Bumble Bee flies almost since the dawn of aviation as a field of study.

#2: Says who? I've never heard this one. I am skeptical the numbers have been crunched on this notion. Do you have a reference?

#3: False. Cough syrups are drugs with proven efficacy over placebo.

#4: False. Religious "experts" imposed this view. The real experts (the mathematicians) were able to show the earth was round almost since the dawn of mathematics as a field of study.

#5: What's the point? How is this any different than asking about the times you thought something was wrong but there really wasn't anything?

#6: While this may or may not happen (it hasn't for me), there seems to be a far larger problem of shysters in chiropractics than in medicine. So, another question could be relevant here: How many times have you been taken by someone selling false hope and/or placebo and you never even knew it?





If you want me to have an "open mind", I don't think it's wise to have a mind so open my brain falls out.

;)

[leejunfan]

uh oh... I see where this is headed....lol:cool:

moral of the story.... a closed mind has blind spots, an open mind learns something new everyday.

[Tom Kagan]

uh oh... I see where this is headed....lol:cool:

moral of the story.... a closed mind has blind spots, an open mind learns something new everyday.


An "open mind" ???

Open to what? Nazism? Creationism? Female genital mutilation? Binge drinking?

An open mind is the denial that absolute knowledge exists. It is a refuge for the mentally lazy. The goal of the person who tells you to "keep an open mind" is to undercut your certainty in your beliefs without having to refute them or justify his or her own. It is an intellectual dead end (just as a closed mind is, also).

While the open mind claims to be the antidote to the dogmatism of the closed mind, it merely clings to the dogma that no knowledge is possible ... except, of course, the knowledge that one should keep an open mind. Both the open and closed minds fail because they are intellectually passive. Neither involves a critical examination of ideas. The open vs. closed mind is a false duality.

Do you want to discern meaningful dualities? The true dualities here are: "active vs. passive" and "objective vs. subjective".

To "learn something new each day" without "blind spots" as you suggest, a person needs an active, objective mind.

You can keep your inherently passive and subjective mind, whether it be "open" or "closed" (or swinging back and forth on a hinge). I don't want any part of it.

:cool:


(And a little FYI: Scotoma isn't what Seaman & Brault say it is in that passage.)

[PaulH]

Tom,

You freaks me out! I wonder what does your active and objective mind consider is more numerous - the dead or the living? :D

[drleungjohn]

Hope you are well-

It's easy to nitpick and refute everything anyone says-but I think you are over analyzing a bit-as to my refereneces,they were more as objects of discussion to illustrate points-but-

1-The dawn of aviation had more to worry about then bumble bees
2-The one inch punch was done by my students in various physics and biomechanics classes in colleges throughout the years as part of research and experiments various WCK people had come up with over time-no nothing was ever published-nor was it written-they were class projects I had them do for our education
3-That info was published in peer reviewed journals about it's lack of efficacy-recently-it was even on the 'net -you gotta start reading medical peer reviewed journals-which unfortunately I have to as a Doctor-just becuase you didn't hear about it doesn't make it false-or true-until you do the research-
4-Don't forget-the church were the experts in those days-they had all the educated knowledge-science was considered the devil's work-and even if it works on paper-until Columbus did it-it was a theory- that no one believed-
5-that is the point-
6-Oh Tom please-=I am in the health profession-shysters in Chiropractic-you are not around medical people enough I believe-no need to take a swipe at Chiropractic-I can say there are more shysters in Plumbing and Autorepair-that's not the point- as to the second part of your question-we all have I would guess-to some degree-but even the placebo effect is might powerful-

nice talking to you again--

[Liddel]

4-Experts said the world was flat


LOL ;) Reminds me of an old story about an astronomer giving a speech related to his belieif that the wrold was round and not flat. Near the end of his speech a lady in the back scoffs and says, no sir you are wrong, the world is a flat plate resting on the back of a tortise shell, the astronmer thought for a moment and replied, ok then what is holding the tortise up madame ? you are very smart young man said the women, but its tortises the whole way down !

I think i read this in Stephen Hawkings Brief History of Time, and it reminds me of some peoples POV towards the martial arts....:cool:

[Tom Kagan]

6-Oh Tom please-=I am in the health profession-shysters in Chiropractic-you are not around medical people enough I believe-no need to take a swipe at Chiropractic-I can say there are more shysters in Plumbing and Autorepair-that's not the point- as to the second part of your question-we all have I would guess-to some degree-but even the placebo effect is might powerful-


I know you are in "the medical profession." What do you know of me?

I did not take a "swipe" at chiropractors. If my words are, indeed, a "swipe" at anyone, they are a swipe instead at shysters who call themselves chiropractors. I trust you see the difference. So, don't get bent out of shape by my words just because happen to be a chiropractor and you read "shyster" and "chiropractor" in the same sentence. (If you were not a chiropractor, but rather a shyster who calls himself a chiropractor, only then could I reasonably see why you'd be upset. Regardless, introducing what are ultimately the red herrings of plumbing and autorepair are irrelevant.)


You know what I'm really getting at? This:


Argument.
Conflict.
Fighting.

These are three of many pillars which make up the basis of civilized society.


"SAY WHAT???????"

Without ...

argument,
conflict,
fighting,

...you never have the necessary chances to resolve differences. It is, in fact, the alternative of avoidance and ignoring which causes problems to grow until they erupt into truly intractable quagmires.

Argument, conflict, and fighting do not work "to the detriment of our family" and do not give "more power to those who would see us fail", as suggested by the OP. So while this thread is a "why can't we all get along?" Rodney King-esque plea, do you know what I think really hurts the style?


Avoidance.
Ignoring.
No fighting.


Food for thought:

IMO, polite smiling and nodding is the very essence of "what sifu said" - the very thing the OP portends to decry. Misplaced unity - the "you're with us or against us" mentality - is far more corrosive to the pillars of whatever cause celebre de jour than any minor bickering. Stop worrying about what others think of these so called "problems." We shouldn't be concerned about image because, when it's about Martial Arts, performance is what is important.

So, I suggest that, instead of us sticking our head in the sand and/or sweeping things under the rug, we make a tub of popcorn and enjoy the show while we argue, have conflicts, and yes, fight in our attempts to find those chances to resolve differences. This stuff happens everywhere in MA. Ving Tsun should be no different.

[leejunfan]

OP? who is OP?

[leejunfan]

What do you know of me?


Absolutely nothing Tom... why don't you tell us a little about yourself. Let us get to know the real you


anyway... Tom... I hear what you're saying and I don't want this to turn into a competition. I totally agree... in the end.... skills prevail, but my original post was not about skill... it's about keeping an open mind and LISTENING to what others have to say. Now I didn't say BELIEVE everything you hear.... that would be silly. But not listening at all...or having selective hearing (blind spots ala reading or hearing) is equally damaging. Anyone who has ever read any or my posts know I'm all about being able to do what you say you can do, I'm not much for martial arts history or politics.... but what I am about is bettering myself, and to me... to me... bettering myself has always been about listening with an open mind, analyze the data, and see what good can come from it. If it's bad?..... I put it aside... discard it.... no skin off my back. THAT is the message I'm trying to get across.

So you pick an online "fight" if you wish... I won't have any part of it. But if you want to tone it down a bit and communicate on a level of mutual respect then hey.... that is great.

Anyway, all I hope is that wing chun and every other martial art torn apart by inner feuds... can put ego's aside and help eachother to become great...... instead of marketing the "One True Wing Chun" :rolleyes:

[imperialtaichi]

..... there is a lot of bickering about who is right...who is wrong... what the true history is... and what is isn't, and after a while (quite quickly in fact) people are not listening to eachother completely....

...good or bad... provide proof of your skills or lineage instead of resorting to the same old " 'cause Sifu said " excuses



Hello leejunfan,

Gee, the thread had really moved sideways..... :)

Anyway, I hear you.

This problem is not only associated with WC, but other martial art styles too.

Frankly, I don't care much about lineage. As long as the martial art is good, I don't care who invented it, or how old it is. MA styles are always evolving anyway.

So, judge the style by it's suitability to your specific needs, and nothing more.

Cheers,
John

[Tom Kagan]

Absolutely nothing Tom... why don't you tell us a little about yourself. Let us get to know the real you


anyway... Tom... I hear what you're saying and I don't want this to turn into a competition. I totally agree... in the end.... skills prevail, but my original post was not about skill... it's about keeping an open mind and LISTENING to what others have to say. Now I didn't say BELIEVE everything you hear.... that would be silly. But not listening at all...or having selective hearing (blind spots ala reading or hearing) is equally damaging. Anyone who has ever read any or my posts know I'm all about being able to do what you say you can do, I'm not much for martial arts history or politics.... but what I am about is bettering myself, and to me... to me... bettering myself has always been about listening with an open mind, analyze the data, and see what good can come from it. If it's bad?..... I put it aside... discard it.... no skin off my back. THAT is the message I'm trying to get across.

So you pick an online "fight" if you wish... I won't have any part of it. But if you want to tone it down a bit and communicate on a level of mutual respect then hey.... that is great.

Anyway, all I hope is that wing chun and every other martial art torn apart by inner feuds... can put ego's aside and help eachother to become great...... instead of marketing the "One True Wing Chun" :rolleyes:

OP = Original Poster.


Suppose, for a moment, someone invited you to a lecture given by the Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters.

Now, before you could say anything, they also suggest you "keep an open mind. You don't have to BELIEVE everything. Just come and listen."

What would your reaction be?


A veneer of politeness does not mean "mutual respect." In fact, in some societies - such as the one where this style originated - one way to show great disrespect is to become so overly polite as to almost a point of absurdity.

You offered your opinion in a forum of public review. I strongly disagree with many tenets of what you suggest. And, I refuted them by offering my own passionate opinion in their place. (I'll admit it took me three posts to meander through the complete thoughts I was mulling over, and I started with a response to a tangental post. :) ) However, now you appear to believe that somehow I've managed to show a lack of "mutual respect" because I've done this in a strong fashion; you think I'm picking an online fight.

Nothing could be further from the truth. (And, if that was your impression, then my apologies you feel that way.)

If I did not have "mutual respect" for your post, I wouldn't have bothered to respond at all. I would have kept my refutations to myself. It would have been much easier for me to ignore you. But I didn't.

Why didn't I? Because I felt it was important to express an alternative viewpoint to yours. I did not want to avoid or ignore the "issue": that you think this style is "torn apart by inner feuds." Well, I don't feel that way. What you see as a problem barely registers on my scale above background noise. In fact, in many ways, I consider what transpires from time to time a healthy outlet.

I have no problem if you wish to continue looking at things your way. You may or may not believe me when I say I understand where your viewpoint comes from. However, if you discount my alternative viewpoint out of hand as you appear to have done, what does that action say with regards to your viewpoint about keeping an open mind?

[leejunfan]

Tom Tom Tom..... come come now!!! you are comparing having an open mind in martial arts to a "Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters"?!?!?!

Don't you think you are taking my post waaaaaaay out to left field? Like I said before... I understand where you are coming from. You don't HAVE t listen to everyone... heck... 90% of the postsw here I pay absolutely no mind to... especially when I see the bickering start. I'm glad that you understand what i was getting at and we'll leave it at that..... but try not to take it in a direction so extreme.....ok? wow:rolleyes:

I don't understand why you disagree with me... I thought my post was simple and to the point but let me put it another way. THIS forum has a habit of constant flame wars. I read the posts and think to myself "WOW... these guys just aren't listenng to eachother." Hence the reason why I try hard (but don't always succeed) not to get involved with such nonsense. I think a lot gets lost in the translation over the cold world of the internet. I'm sure.... if everyone on this forum were to meet face to face the "tone" of the conversations would be much different.

Anyway..... thanks for participating and I truly appreciate your views. It does give one some food for thought, Thanks.

[NJM]

OP = Original Poster.


Suppose, for a moment, someone invited you to a lecture given by the Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters.

Now, before you could say anything, they also suggest you "keep an open mind. You don't have to BELIEVE everything. Just come and listen."



Hey, I'd here them out.

[tjwingchun]

Hey, I'd here them out.While poring petrol over them and applying a lighted match!:D

[tjwingchun]

Now why did I go through the trouble of typing this out for you... my kung fu brothers and sisters? To share in the wisdom of these words. You see...... in our family... the Wing Chun family..... there is a lot of bickering about who is right...who is wrong... what the true history is... and what is isn't, and after a while (quite quickly in fact) people are not listening to eachother completely. They are not truly "hearing" and "understanding" what the other has to say. This works to the detriment of our family and gives more power to those who would see us fail.

So I say this to you all: Open your mind and free yourselves of your Wing Chun ego's. Embrace everything Wing Chun.... good or bad... provide proof of your skills or lineage instead of resorting to the same old " 'cause Sifu said " excuses. Lip service does nothing to nurture our beloved WCK.

AmitabhaI hear your words and understand the sentiment as I have been saying much the same for many years, however it is not "Wing Chun ego" that is the problem, simply EGO.

Until people are comfortable and believe in themselves they will always put others down to make them feel superior, hence bigotry, prejudice and bullying.

Knowledge is power, ignorance a blight that can be healed with patience and time.

[drleungjohn]

No harm,no foul-it just doesn't read that way to me,the way you wrote it-no biggie-

take care

[Tom Kagan]

No harm,no foul-it just doesn't read that way to me,the way you wrote it-no biggie-

take care

No problem. Chiropractors get a bad rap at times. I understand why a chiropractor might be a bit sensitive about the "image" which can get portrayed.

Regardless, If you had said the reverse, I would have discussed whatever situation with M.D.s and D.O.s I could think of instead. Your tangential post was just the impetuous I used as a pretext to hash out some of my thoughts publicly. They have very little to do with chiropractics at all.




Tom Tom Tom..... come come now!!! you are comparing having an open mind in martial arts to a "Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesters"?!?!?!

So, you are closed minded about this issue? ;) Do you think it would have been a better example if I suggested the "Society of Neo-Nazi Misogynistic Child Molesting Martial Artists" instead? :D


Don't you think you are taking my post waaaaaaay out to left field? Like I said before... I understand where you are coming from. You don't HAVE t listen to everyone... heck... 90% of the postsw here I pay absolutely no mind to... especially when I see the bickering start. I'm glad that you understand what i was getting at and we'll leave it at that..... but try not to take it in a direction so extreme.....ok? wow:rolleyes:

Taking an argument to an extreme in order to better illustrate the logical flaws inherent in an argument is perfectly valid. Sorry, but the example you consider extreme is, in reality, very far from the logical conclusion of what constitutes an "open mind."

The very idea of having an "open mind" - the notion where all ideas and viewpoints are equally valid - is a 2,000 year old Sophist argument (read: "invalid"). Did you really expect to get away with that without someone calling you on it with a 2,000 year old Socratic argument as a rebuttal? :)


"People are always talking to you about truth. Everybody always knows what the truth is, like it was toilet paper or something and they got a supply in the closet. But what you learn as you get older is that there ain't no truth. All there is, is Bullsh1t, layers of it. One layer of Bullsh1t layered on top of another. And what you do in life, like as you get older, is you pick the layer of Bullsh1t you prefer, and it's your Bullsh1t, so to speak."

-- Bernie LaPlante

[leejunfan]

wow Tom.... nevermind man..... you keep living your life and I'll live mine... I'm happy that the others that contributed to this thread understand where I'm coming from at least.

peace.....

[Tom Kagan]

wow Tom.... nevermind man..... you keep living your life and I'll live mine... I'm happy that the others that contributed to this thread understand where I'm coming from at least.

peace.....


But I do understand where you are coming from. I'm just wondering: can you honestly say the same for my case? Why does it seem I am the only one who also contributed and also understands where you are coming from does not also make you happy?

Do you think perhaps a major part of that reason is because I don't agree with "what sifu [you] said" ?
















Okay, the last question was me tweaking/trolling in good ol'fashioned internet fun. I'm not really serious on that one. :)

It would be nice if you could if you could attempt to clarify why I should be concerned with those threads in the same fashion as you which prompted you to start this thread, though. I tend to get involved in threads which I believe I can reasonably discuss over the internet. If you look at my posting history, you'll see my choices of threads in which to participate lean very much towards ones like this one you started. (The "how do I hold my TanSao?" type threads are beyond my abilities to discuss sufficiently in solely an online forum via the written word.)

[PaulH]

Well, without further ado, I think Tom's arguments against the perils of open mindedness are in line with Benjamin Franklin's witty remark - something like love thy neighbors but don't pull down the hedges. That said, objectivity when done in an uncaring spirit or cold professionalism often disconnect and alienate people. This separation from life around us and within us in the name of objectivity is a poor trade-off for simple humanity and compassion in my opinion.

[lonewolf]

while people like to argue about what is "true" and what isn't what should be important is if the style really works these days as it was intended. lineage can be kept intact for the purpose of the art form itself but when it comes to the self defense properties of the art that can only be determined by sparring. in the end the reason that these arts were developed to begin with was self defense purposes. is lineage and right and wrong really important when its the effectiveness that needs to be tested.

[shaolinsky]

I would have to agree to that last.

[Matrix]

This separation from life around us and within us in the name of objectivity is a poor trade-off for simple humanity and compassion in my opinion.
Well said Paul.:cool:

[PaulH]

Thanks, Bill. It remains to be seen whether this indeed can be well done. :D

[Matrix]

It remains to be seen whether this indeed can be well done. :DWe can always hope. :)
Peace.