Just signed up my 30th student.

[Oso]

I actually have 30 active, participating students between adult, women's and youth classes.

8 Youth
4 Women's
18 Adult (including 3 women)

[rogue]

Congrats Oso!:)

[Vash]

Congrats!

Congrats again, because my post-fu is weaker than your kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

cool, that should cover your rent and facilities. Now you need anoter 30 so you can draw some sort of pay outta this. :)

[Oso]

Thanks guys. I still need 5 more to break even but this is a heck of a lot closer than 2 months ago.

[rogue]

You want a few more students, advertise that you have Fitness Pole Dancing (http://www.fitnesspoledancing.com/) at your school. Chaching and shwing!

Just make sure it isn't this (http://www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music/dance/) Pole Dancing.

[Oso]

LOL...just when i think i've seen everything. Training for strippers...


coincidentally, when we were in the rec center we used to follow a 'garland dancing' group on wednesday nights. a bunch of women walking in circles w/ hoops over their heads.

[Shaolinlueb]

congrats man, im about to break 50 soon. when i do it will be nice.

[rogue]

LOL...just when i think i've seen everything. Training for strippers...

Think about it Stripper Pole Training...
# Burns lots of calories
# Tone your abs
# Define your arms and shoulders
# Tone Legs
# Makes you more flexible
# Teaches you to Dance
# Builds confidence and self- esteem
# You will be the envy of EVERYONE
# Its so enjoyable and fun!!
# Will pull every lonely Bruce Lee wanna be living in his mother basement right into your school.

Just make sure you get them to sign long term contracts before they find out that there is no Stripper Pole Training at your school.

[Oso]

SL: Thanks and congrats on hitting 50. Once I hit 35 and stop paying out of pocket, i'll be much much happier.






{just shakes his head at rogue}

right, and then the next level will be my own specialized Parkour training where we go up on the roof and I throw you off and you see how well you can land....

[rogue]

I know you mean well, but I'd rather practice putting dollar bills in g-strings at the stripper pole class.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

****in nice dude.

you're still doin a 9-5 for the time being right? if so maybe that could change in the next 2 years.

[Oso]

yea, still doing that.

i'm going to try not to hope too much that that can change but it would be nice

[kidswarrior]

Congratulations! I know from building a business that the first few are the hardest, then they give a little momentum, then the small growth leads to faster momentum, and so on. I believe you'll be surprised later how fast 50 gets here.

[Shaolinlueb]

SL: Thanks and congrats on hitting 50. Once I hit 35 and stop paying out of pocket, i'll be much much happier.

{just shakes his head at rogue}

right, and then the next level will be my own specialized Parkour training where we go up on the roof and I throw you off and you see how well you can land....

35 will come soon man. just keep up the good work.

[Chief Fox]

So what was your plan on getting to 30? What worked? What didn't? How are you attracting new students now?

Just curious. And congratulations!

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, I am curious too. I will be starting up a class soon in an art studio (A really cool place). They want a Tai Chi class. I am trying to do what I am calling a "Primordial Tai Chi" class, so I can teach Tai Tzu Changquan. I figure calling it that keeps it honest, gives them the Tai Chi buzz word for the marketing, and I get to work my basics in a really cool setting once a week year round.

I cannot do any self defense stuff though :( just the form. But once a week of doing the core form really slow and soft will refine my mechanics quite a bit I think.

[Mas Judt]

Good luck OSO. I just got ahold of an old classmate of mine. He has a school in Rockford IL., - great martial artist. But he's part-time too with a commercial location. A hard row to hoe. He's asked me for advice, but other than some obvious stuff, I'm not sure HOW to grow a part-time thing. - I've always run classes, but never with that kind of overhead & expenses.

Best of luck to you. It's a real challenge.

[Oso]

i'm not really sure there is an answer to what has worked and what hasn't.

'old school-no pain no gain-pain is just weakness leaving the body' has definitely not worked. It's been very tough recognizing that a commercial school in this town isn't going to be based on a 'fighting' format.

the funny thing is, i don't know where anyone is going who wants to train for fighting, sport or otherwise, is going. There's a BJJ school about 45 minutes away but from what I understand, they don't do any stand up training. Other than that, there is no 'mma' type thing going on anywhere unless it's underground/basement/backyard.

I went ahead and dropped class time from 2 hours to 1 hour. So, beginners are 6:30-7:30 monday~thursday. Most students say that it works better for them. Driving in this town sucks considering it's relative size. So, a 2 hour class really meant a 3 hour commitment. If they are really gung ho, they can come to 4 classes a week plus a 5 hour run on saturdays.

The saturday schedule has definitely seemed popular with the newest students, mostly male college guys.

10am Strength/Conditioning
11am Open Floor
12noon Weapons
1pm-3pm Sparring

so, there are 4 days that are not real demanding in duration and 1 day a week that the gung ho students can get a long session in.

and finally, I made the curriculum less demanding. which is essentially 'watering it down.' but, to get into the specifics of that would mostly be a debate on a) how many forms does a 'black sash' need b) how many throws.... c) how many kicks... d) how much chin na...

one of the things that people had the hardest time with was the ba shi. the whole set was on the first level along with the first two roads of tan tui (as pong lai does them, with a ling side). so, now they just start with 'er shi': horse and hill climbing. I add in the others once they have those two down. in one way it makes sense to have them spend more overall time on just the two basic stances but, you know, I didn't really think it should be all that hard to get the 8 down.

I've also stopped teaching the ling side of the forms on the same sash level. Only a couple of them are 'folded' so learning the ling side was just like learning a second entire form...and I had like 16 forms on the list for black sash, including weapons. I took weapons out altogether and cut the list down to 8 empty hand sets.

so...basically, made it easier to 'succeed faster':rolleyes:

what I've told the couple of guys that have stated an interest in fighting is that the conditioning and sparring time on saturdays should not be missed. the rest of it will set a foundation for body awareness and then they need to work hard at getting better conditioned and be willing to get hit during sparring.

so, basically, the plan is to keep working on creating a class during the week where the people in love with 'kung fu' can learn forms and drills and basic application so they don't look too shabby at a demo...and gradually build up the group of folks that want to learn to fight...so I don't go nuts in the process.

one thing that is happening now that I have 12+ people on the floor during the main class time and on saturdays is that people walking by will stop and look longer because it looks like more is happening. No matter how hard 3-6 people are working it just doesn't look like much in a 20x60 room.

[Black Jack II]

I wish you luck, running a school seems to be a pretty hard business.

I only know of two in my neck of the woods which make any serious cash.

The first is a massive mcdojo in Carol Stream which my 9 year old niece of all things belongs to. $100 a month to start on a two year contract, then they raked my stupid as dirt sister in law into something called the black belt club which tacks on another $100 a month to that total for a nine year old.

Now they are asking her to put the kid in a weapons class which is guess what....another $100 a month.:rolleyes:

The second is a JKD Concepts school which charges pretty high rates, no contract commitment, but and I give the guy credit for this, he is a excellent marketing man. Just gets out on feet and hussles for business.

[Mas Judt]

Who is the JKD guy?

[Royal Dragon]

Black Jack,

There are plenty of schools in the Chicago area that make tall cash. Most are TKD/Karate schools though.

[Oso]

yea, the black belt club thing is a total scam. people are stupid though. I've said before somewhere here that the mcdojo's are marketing the things that have always been a byproduct/side effect of any physical endeavor practiced over time...but without the real attainment of actually getting good at whatever the endeavor is.

in this town, the gymnastics and dance schools are getting on the afterschool pickup/babysitting scheme and taking a little bit more of the pie. it's really a side effect of the society we've created where both parents have to work and $150 a month for afterschool child care is a deal when compared to a real day care. and THAT is what's going to bite them in the ass one day when something bad happens and someone finally points out that they are really running unlicensed day care centers.

[steps off soapbox]

right now i don't intend on charging extra for the weapons or sparring class. they need to buy the arnis sticks or staff/sword/spear or whatever but i'm including those classes as part of the 'package'.


that's something else that i've managed to get up over the last 2 months. My january retail sales have almost hit $500.

[Black Jack II]

There are plenty of schools in the Chicago area that make tall cash. Most are TKD/Karate schools though.-

True, places like Changs and stuff. Forgot to mention those. A few of those TKD places are very well put together in terms of location so I can see some of the above average Naperville rates.;)

Mas,

Its not Degerberg, though I am sure he makes some good cash, nor Halleck in Libertyville, its EDS in Roselle which also has a small school in Rockford.

Nothing big in terms of size, actually a small sized school, but he markets hard in the old school way, gets out and hits the colleges, hits the police stations, does some black belt articles, does the cd thing and has a good personality which I think goes a long way to some of his success, be it mild maybe to some others point of view.

The teachers name is Matthew Numrich I believe. Student of Paul Vunacks.

[rogue]

Oso, Sounds like you're being realistic about what people are want and how they can work for it. A friend of mine cut his class hours down to an hour and got a nice bump in students showing up. A good number were people who had to drop out because they no longer had 2 hours a night to put into doing any martial art, but they could spare an hour once or twice a week. He did have to restructure how the class had been done for about 10 which means not everything gets done in a single night. Now his problem is cutting the number of classes because it wearing him out even with 4 assistant instructors. To have his troubles, right?

Another thing he's done is that every other Saturday he has a JKD guy come in and teach the regular class. The JKD guy gets some exposure and a real place to train, the karate students get some different material to keep the classes fresh and my friend gets to take a weekend off and be a student. So far it's been a win/win situation.

[Shaolinlueb]

my first sifu makes decent money with black belt and an extra 2-3000 a month on afterschool. is it commercial, yes. but does the training suffer for the adults? no its still a good school.

[Oso]

rogue: i've got two assistants now. both teach the kids class and the women's class. I've still monitor and assist them as they are just a bit over 2 year students themselves. They are only teaching white sash stuff now and can handle conveying the material fine but don't have the experience in other areas. they do fine and I couldn't do it with out them.

One thing I'm still trying to hold on to is a teacher/youth ratio of 1/4. This means that in my space I'd cap the kids class at 12 because there isn't enough room to break out in to more than 4 groups. I could pack 18-20 in there if I were to adopt a different method but I think that the kids benefit and actually learn the information.


SL: Black belt club and kids classes don't mean the training has to be bad or anything. It just does more often than not. I'm trying to figure out a way to work a program in like that that generates more money for the school but has a real honest gain for the student as well. I'm probably going to work a package that includes a private lesson a month and a discount on uniforms and weapons. I don't want to call it something cheesy though...maybe "Package B" :D

[racerX]

Great job Oso, happy to hear things are turning around for you. For a few extra students try bring a friend night,training with a friend brings motovatation(sp?)
Good luck:)

[MasterKiller]

Oso,
Since you cut the class times in half, maybe you could offer a Level 1 class and a Level 2 class.

Level 1 would be what you are doing now, and Level 2 would be for people that want more contact. That way, the people who don't want to hit hard can go home after 1 hour, and the people that do want to hit hard can stick around for another hour and train more.

[BoulderDawg]

Pricing

I like a school that's up front with their pricing. You are charged a set amount and there are no other charges. You can participate in all activities at the school at that price.

The school I'm at now charges $25 a month. However, that's just the beginning. There are, on average, two festivals a month costing around $50 each. Also there are always charges for testing. Plus the Shao-lin store which keeps a full supply of weapons available(we've just got in a supply of straight swords..hurry up and get yours today).

I remember as a lower belt moving up though the ranks and being pushed by the Masters to test.

"What? You say You're not ready. Take a pretest and see."

Of course if you passed the pretest (and I know of no one that failed one) you were presented your belt along with a bill for $40, $50, $60 or $75!

[Royal Dragon]

I allways charged by the hour.

$10.00 per hour..if they took 3 hours a week, I did it for $8.00...5 hours I did it for $7.00 and hour and so on.

[Mas Judt]

There is a fine line between making a living at this and being a scumbag.

I'm partial to the hourly rate model. Currently I run a small class (stable at about 5 core folks, total attendance around 10). I don't really advertise or promote the class, it has all been word of mouth.

About half my students pay for two private lessons a month, and get all the group classes for free. The others pay $10 a class for 1-1/2 hour classes.

I'm too busy to deal with the tax reporting on supplies, so I just point them to the web to buy. What I would make is certainly not worth my time.

I'm not sure if you CAN be profitable anymore without running a daycare center, or teaching so delicately it can barely be called a martial art. If I could find a way, I would do it.

[Oso]

racerx: thanks.


Oso,
Since you cut the class times in half, maybe you could offer a Level 1 class and a Level 2 class.

Level 1 would be what you are doing now, and Level 2 would be for people that want more contact. That way, the people who don't want to hit hard can go home after 1 hour, and the people that do want to hit hard can stick around for another hour and train more.

well, what I've done is cut it into 'beginner's' at 6:30 and 'intermediate/advanced' at 7:30 where I did have just one big class time. The first 5 sash levels are 'beginners' and consist of just the tan tui's, BaBu Lian Hua and Shi Ba Shou (including two person), some basic chin na, a couple of throws and a few kicks. a total of 8 of the infamous Pong Lai arm drills and a few kick drills. After the 5th sash level, the mantis forms start and student transfers mainly into the later class though they can come for both hours if they want.

as far as contact, I'm keeping the beginner class light and letting anyone come in to sparring class as soon as they want. since i'm mostly trying to run a sanda type format, a large 'technique' base isn't needed and they can watch some to see if they think they want the contact and then jump in if they wish. most of the college guys are in and doing well. we're using 12oz. gloves and wearing headgear.

I'm not even trying to really include arm or shin conditioning in the beginners class. I definitely have lost students who didn't want to wear bruises on their arms.


BoulderDawg: that's basically what I'm trying to do. I'd thought about adding an extra charge for weapons and sparring but am settling for garnering the retail income on the gear.


I'm not sure if you CAN be profitable anymore without running a daycare center, or teaching so delicately it can barely be called a martial art. If I could find a way, I would do it.

I'm not sure either. When I moved to this town 5 1/2 years ago, i was sure I could go full time by the 5th year....:rolleyes:

I surely blame myself for not realising sooner that i could not teach the way I learned. I also did not fully examine the market before deciding to move here. Had I realized that there were 25+ schools in this county I probably would have moved elsewhere...heh, who am I kidding...I followed a girl here :o :rolleyes:

but anyway, I am probably still being foolish in that I do think I can outlast the mcdojo's and at least get to a point where I'm only working part time elsewhere within the next two years without turning into a mcdojo myself.

lol, that just made me think of this:


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.


so, i wonder if the mods will let this stand as a blog of sorts????

we are going to do an open house for Chinese New Years on the 17th. Just got a banner done to hang on the building above the sign and will have some of the traditional candies and moon pies and hot tea. I'm going to have a raffle with 3 separate drawings for a free month of classes. Hopefully I will get enough names and emails to start some sort of mailing list...with permission of course.

oh, the other thing I've capitulated on is the shirts...just had some black ones printed up w/ bright green ink. i soooo wanted to stay away from the 'black on black' thing that I think is pretentious as hell. the do look cool but...

anyway, need to finish printing a couple new handbooks and talk to the women's class about participating in the open house and then start adults.

[racerX]

Oso,sounds good on what your doing,I have found out you must cater to your clientele,give them what they want.keep your hardcore students in a more private class.Yes it's hard not to have that selling out feel but were talking about your future,family,needs.2 yrs. is along time to meet some of your goals,when your compition is takeing your income.Go full force enroll all types of students kids,adults,develop a program on who is most interested.Remember if you love to teach it does'nt matter who your teaching,gratification comes from teaching and watching your students grow.You can enroll 35 students in 60 days if you want, just go and get them. :)

[Oso]

This weeks stats:

Lost: 3

#1 - moving
#2 - thinks 'neija' is more his speed
#3 - college class load too heavy

Gained: 1

8 year old who experienced some sort of martial arts via a school program.

Inquiry: 1

a mother who's daughter has been doing TKD but the mother isn't impressed and wants to find a school with a more 'focused interest in learning'

I thought that interesting to hear. Kinda shows what I've been saying about mcdojo's selling the side effects of good training w/o the training.

She's supposed to bring her daughter in to observe class tomorrow.

[The Xia]

a mother who's daughter has been doing TKD but the mother isn't impressed and wants to find a school with a more 'focused interest in learning'
Sounds like a fancy way of saying "school that actually trains its students" to me.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

This weeks stats:

Lost: 3

#1 - moving
#2 - thinks 'neija' is more his speed
#3 - college class load too heavy

Gained: 1

8 year old who experienced some sort of martial arts via a school program.

Inquiry: 1

a mother who's daughter has been doing TKD but the mother isn't impressed and wants to find a school with a more 'focused interest in learning'

I thought that interesting to hear. Kinda shows what I've been saying about mcdojo's selling the side effects of good training w/o the training.

She's supposed to bring her daughter in to observe class tomorrow.

When people quit, they will come up with all kinds of excuses. Don't listen to them.

The fact is; You got FIRED. Don't listen to the excuses, but listen to your statistics. If you are losing more than you enroll, you'r landlord is destined to have the big ole "FOR RENT" sign in your place in no time.

You have to find the proper medium of what you WANT to teach and what your customers/students WANT to learn. This way everyone is happy.

I suggest you make friends with someone who is doing what you would LIKE to do. Take on a mentor. Don't waste your time running around blind, trying to 'figure it out.' It's already been 'figured out.' Just find a good person or two to learn from and you'll be set.

You are now a business owner (I assumed you recently opened the school), and as a business owner, you must again become a student. You must learn about marketing yourself and your studio. You will have to become a master in finance, sales, reseach and development (that's where a mentor can come in, and if possible and industry association - NAPMA, MAIA, etc) Operations, Management, etc.

The MA business is the best. I've run professional CMA schools for almost 16 years, and I wouldn't ever do anything else for a living. If you do it right, you can produce great students, touch and affect 1000's of families, become an upstanding citizen in your community and earn well in excess of $100,000 per year (per studio!!!!). You can retire in your 50's, and teach for the fun of it. You can build a few schools and leave behind a legacy.

Like I said, I wouldn't do anything else in the world, no matter what.

[yutyeesam]

Amen to what Sifu Parella said.

And also, if you are really serious about the growth of your martial arts school business, get involved with Champions Way. I just recently started with them and am kicking myself for not using their products and services earlier. I haven't even been using them for more than 2 months and already I'm seeing improvements in retention and leads.

But again, it's only if you're serious about taking it to the next level. Taking things to the next level requires us to step out of a penny pinching mindset, which many of have a hard time doing (I did, and now am kicking myself for being that way).

-123

[Oso]

Sounds like a fancy way of saying "school that actually trains its students" to me.

yep. it was not the first time i've heard this lately.

[Oso]

When people quit, they will come up with all kinds of excuses. Don't listen to them.

I don't. I believe I know why each of them quit. And, I don't believe that I would keep any of them no matter what I changed about the classes.

The fact is; You got FIRED. Don't listen to the excuses, but listen to your statistics. If you are losing more than you enroll, you'r landlord is destined to have the big ole "FOR RENT" sign in your place in no time.

I realize that I got fired as you put it. But, I'm not going to keep every single student who walks through the door. Statistically, I've increased enrollment by 50% in the last 3 months.

You have to find the proper medium of what you WANT to teach and what your customers/students WANT to learn. This way everyone is happy.

Agreed. Pretty much already talked about that upthread.

I suggest you make friends with someone who is doing what you would LIKE to do. Take on a mentor. Don't waste your time running around blind, trying to 'figure it out.' It's already been 'figured out.' Just find a good person or two to learn from and you'll be set.

I did that a bit over three years ago. He's been teaching in this town for over 25 years and been involved in martial arts, and commercial martial arts, since the early 60's. But, guess what? His enrollment is down. I don't feel bad that I'm not raking in the money that the ATA and ATF and SDA schools in this town are because, AFAIK, none of them are supporting their owners full time either. The only full time school owner in town happens to be the guy who has become a mentor to me. We meet at least monthly. He's watched me teach, and watched my students train on their own. He's made suggestions and I've listened to them.

You are now a business owner (I assumed you recently opened the school), and as a business owner, you must again become a student. You must learn about marketing yourself and your studio. You will have to become a master in finance, sales, reseach and development (that's where a mentor can come in, and if possible and industry association - NAPMA, MAIA, etc) Operations, Management, etc.

Understood. However, for the time being, I'm going to reinvent the wheel. I just simply don't like the taste of what those big marketing companies say.

The MA business is the best. I've run professional CMA schools for almost 16 years, and I wouldn't ever do anything else for a living. If you do it right, you can produce great students, touch and affect 1000's of families, become an upstanding citizen in your community and earn well in excess of $100,000 per year (per studio!!!!). You can retire in your 50's, and teach for the fun of it. You can build a few schools and leave behind a legacy.

Like I said, I wouldn't do anything else in the world, no matter what.

this market is different. sure, it's the same as a lot of others but there is something different about this market and Shihan (my mentor) and I have talked about it and we both feel it's changing...for the better. In the last two years, one of the biggest babysitter schools closed. i keep hearing what this mother said several times over the last year or so. the marketing image I'm trying to put out there is one of 'hard work over time'. it's not going to capture everyone, but that's ok.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

this market is different. sure, it's the same as a lot of others but there is something different about this market and Shihan (my mentor) and I have talked about it and we both feel it's changing...for the better. In the last two years, one of the biggest babysitter schools closed. i keep hearing what this mother said several times over the last year or so. the marketing image I'm trying to put out there is one of 'hard work over time'. it's not going to capture everyone, but that's ok.


IMHO, you couldn't be more wrong about this first statement. People are the same, all over the country. They want the same things. If I had a nickel for everyone who has ever told me, "No, you don't understand, people in my town are different..." I'd have..... a lot of nickels!

And as far as the
"what those big marketing companies say", How you market your school is up to you! If you are refering to ad campaigns that you may have seen from other schools, I suggest you get first hand information from these companies you mention. THEN, make a qualified decision.

Also, learn the difference between advertising and marketing...they are not the same. From your above statement it is clear to me that you may be misinformed about the two and what some companies offer.


Understood. However, for the time being, I'm going to reinvent the wheel.

Please take offense, PERSONALLY, to my next statement:

REIVENTING THE WHEEL IS ABOUT THE DUMBEST, STUPIDEST, MOST FOOLISH THING YOU CAN DO.

Did I get you upset? I hope so. This is a fool's attitude. I hope you have 30 years and very deep pockets for this venture. It will be a long journey.

Do I come off abrasive? I certainly hope so. But I speak from experience. I've been running professional CMA schools for over 15 years, been teaching for 20 and been training for 25. I have had some great mentors in this business, that I WISHED I HAD LISTED TO MORE, WHEN I WAS A FLEDGLING SCHOOL OWNER. I paid quite a bit for those mistakes.

You have/had a martial arts teacher, right? Why bother? Why not just reinvent the wheel there too? Why not learn to fight by picking fights with people, getting pummelled and then trying to learn from your mistakes while you heal and recover from your injuries. Why not do all this on your own without any guidance. Why not let your students fight without teaching them anything.

I'm making fun now, but you can understand the parrallels, right?

Do a good thing for yourself, your family and your students. Learn how to be a professional martial arts instructor and a solid business owner. Go to seminars, conventions, learn CPR. Invest in yourself and your business. Be a professional and help elevate the industry. If you don't, without knowing it, you will be hurting it.

Now, these are just my opinions and you are more than welcomed to disagree with them and knock 'em. But the wheel and fire have already been invented. I don't have to be a super-professional (which I am :) ) to see that.

I wish you luck and I hope that I have made even the smallest impact upon you.

MP

[Joe Mantis]

oops. I've been lurking but not posting forever.

Oso - big shout out. Glad that you are working your MA business.

I enjoy reading all the talk about "selling out" and Mcdojo's and whatnot (on other threads).

One point that arises is that there seems to be a consenus that Mcdojo's don't teach QUALITY martial arts.

After owning my MA business for 7 years (and only treating it like a business for the last 12 months), I realize that the term "quality" is very subjective.

I think that at first we try to find and force students to take their training as seriously as we did and to want to be the "best" as we did.
However, our clients/students/customers all come to train for different reasons.
If we meet those reasons/"needs" is that "selling out?"

Discuss

[racerX]

NO
Give them WHAT they want.It's a business,like Joe said everybody trains for a different reason.

[Oso]

lol...thanks MP. You certainly have 'impacted' me. ;)


Joe, thanks. Hopefully I'll be back in Tampa before too much longer.

Quality IS subjective. I'm going to keep produce students that conform to my standard of quality martial arts.

Why else bother teaching them at all if you let them set the standard? If they are coming to you for instruction on a subject they are agreeing to try to learn what you have to teach them.


I think that at first we try to find and force students to take their training as seriously as we did and to want to be the "best" as we did.
However, our clients/students/customers all come to train for different reasons.
If we meet those reasons/"needs" is that "selling out?"

no it's not. but, not every school is going to be for every student because each teacher has their own personality that will be reflected in their teaching style. I don't force my students to spar if they don't want to. But, irrelevent of whether they are there for fitness, self-defense or for 'arts' sake...each student still has to meet the same criteria to advance and learn more.

I do work with each student very personally...hell, i don't have that many so it's not difficult at this point to do so. I have one student of 2 years who just can't do a forward roll correctly...I've worked with her one on one many times in an attempt to help her figure it out. I'm not going to hold her back from moving forward in the rest of the material just because she can't figure out how to roll w/o breaking her neck.

gotta go fix more hot tubs....

[lunghushan]

I have one student of 2 years who just can't do a forward roll correctly...I've worked with her one on one many times in an attempt to help her figure it out. I'm not going to hold her back from moving forward in the rest of the material just because she can't figure out how to roll w/o breaking her neck.


One teacher did this with a student who couldn't learn to roll. Get down on his knees and the student on their knees, each side by side, link one arm with one of the student arms, and roll with them.

But honestly I have to agree with Parella for about the first time. He's obviously running a successful school, and while the talk I've been told from 'the street' is that enrollment is down all over, it probably wouldn't hurt to get some tips from somebody like him.

Although I really think that there is a difference between where he is and Asheville in that Asheville has a much more itinerant population with the school and all, and less of an established community base. The community base that is there is probably a lot smaller in relationship to the itinerant community compared to where Parella is.

If I were running a school in Asheville, I'd be focused on keeping a base from within the community, but also signing up as many incoming college students as possible, and then trying to find as many ways as possible to keep them as long as possible.

One of the schools I went to, the Aikido teacher taught on campus, and also ran a school in town. That seemed to be a way to touch both bases.

[Oso]

One teacher did this with a student who couldn't learn to roll. Get down on his knees and the student on their knees, each side by side, link one arm with one of the student arms, and roll with them.

i've done that several times with her. she'll get it ok then but lose it two nights later. she does not have a great sense of where the individual parts of her body are...kinda odd.

But honestly I have to agree with Parella for about the first time. He's obviously running a successful school, and while the talk I've been told from 'the street' is that enrollment is down all over, it probably wouldn't hurt to get some tips from somebody like him.

...and as I said, i do...a veteran martial artist of over 40 years training and over 25 years of teaching in this town i talk with him on the phone regularly and buy him lunch as often as our schedules allow. i'm not knocking Michael's success at all. When I first met Shihan, he laughed and wished me luck and told me no matter what approach I used, it would be a long hard road.

Although I really think that there is a difference between where he is and Asheville in that Asheville has a much more itinerant population with the school and all, and less of an established community base. The community base that is there is probably a lot smaller in relationship to the itinerant community compared to where Parella is.

that's true...but it's also a town of beatnik hippies, working class and then a huge group of middle upper class and upper class. the hippies don't want to learn anything that isn't peaceful tai chi/qigong. the working class has a hard time making ends meet so extra stuff like martial arts isn't an option. the middle upper class wants their kids to be succesful...aquired skill being irrelevent, imo.



If I were running a school in Asheville, I'd be focused on keeping a base from within the community, but also signing up as many incoming college students as possible, and then trying to find as many ways as possible to keep them as long as possible.

that's where my base is from and the recent surge of enrollment has been from the college. I offer a college specific discount as well as a good rate on a semester long enrollment package.

One of the schools I went to, the Aikido teacher taught on campus, and also ran a school in town. That seemed to be a way to touch both bases.

yep, Shihan has been running a program at UNC-A for years. there is also a tai chi guy who's been teaching there for quite a while. it's a bit crowded not to mention what I consider a respect issue of working in what I consider someone else's territory.

[Joe Mantis]

Lama Pai Sifu

I'm very interested in how your curriculum is laid out.
How often do your students test? Do they learn forms? If so how many?
Weapon sets? if so how many? Drills? Self defense? how many?
Do you use a rotation curriculum?

Of course this would be for the regular student and not someone who is in the instructor course.

OSO

I've broken down my classes by programs.
The beginners are level 1 program which is all basics all the time.
We have 5 "self defense" moves. but no forms.
This is a 6 month program.

Level 2 starts forms, combos, drills....but these students take level 1 and stay for extra time....
It's really nice, because I have everyone doing basics and then the beginning students leave and I can teach more advaced stuff to the level 2's....

give me a call if you want more info.

I've had to scale back my curriculum over the years so that my students will have a solid foundation lie a TKD or Karate school.

Kung fu has so much material that it is very easy for a student to know a lot so stuff but to have "mastered" very little material.


Joe Mantis

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Lama Pai Sifu

I've broken down my classes by programs.
The beginners are level 1 program which is all basics all the time.
We have 5 "self defense" moves. but no forms.
This is a 6 month program.

Level 2 starts forms, combos, drills....but these students take level 1 and stay for extra time....
It's really nice, because I have everyone doing basics and then the beginning students leave and I can teach more advaced stuff to the level 2's....



Sounds like you have the right idea. :)

We dont' start forms for a bit longer though.

Before forms, we focus on Drills, some Self Defense and San Da basics.

Next level programs are onto Combat Weapons Training (Actionflex.com equipement) and we are going to be installing a basic BJJ program at that level.

After that, THEN, Hand and Weapon Forms.

[Oso]

OSO

I've broken down my classes by programs.
The beginners are level 1 program which is all basics all the time.
We have 5 "self defense" moves. but no forms.
This is a 6 month program.

I have a beginner's class and then an 'advanced' class. The beginners class consists of 4 sash levels...the first two levels take about 3 months each and then the next two could take 4-6 months each depending on the student. The first two levels hold no forms just drills and basic stances, punching, kicking, chin na, falling and throwing. The 3rd and 4th level just hold one form between the two levels. The solo version at 3rd level and the two person at the 4th. The 'advanced' students come in for the beginners class to help set the example and keep up with the basics...then we work on the more directly related mantis material



Level 2 starts forms, combos, drills....but these students take level 1 and stay for extra time....

ditto

It's really nice, because I have everyone doing basics and then the beginning students leave and I can teach more advaced stuff to the level 2's....

ditto

plus, while mon-wed is somewhat split by sash level: each group working on specific material...i always take thursday as the 'big-finish-everyone-drills-together' day.

give me a call if you want more info.

I've had to scale back my curriculum over the years so that my students will have a solid foundation lie a TKD or Karate school.

i've scaled back as well. my first four levels used to be my first two....the average 'hobbyist-twice-a-weeker' just wasn't able to get everything down. ironically, once I did that...i got 5 new students that don't conform to that...so, they are learning the material much faster and will be passing some older students.

Kung fu has so much material that it is very easy for a student to know a lot so stuff but to have "mastered" very little material.


Joe Mantis

I agree with the last. But, the Pong Lai standard is not the standard needed for a commercial school...K and J both teach very fast...and no wonder as Shiye teaches just as fast.

a bit of a conundrum...

[kungfuyou]

but I have some questions in this area and I'm sure you guys can answer.

So when you open your schools, or start to think about this, do you already have students to teach? Or do you open doors with no students, and then market/advertise to bring in new students?

How long does it take for new students to start walking through the door's once open?

Do you start with your own money to open a school? Or do you get an SBA loan? Or a private money loan?

What amount would you suggest to start a school with? I've heard minimum of $10k, but $50k is ideal.

:)

Thanks

[Royal Dragon]

I would want to have a core group built up, at least enough to cover the rent and utilities first.

[Joe Mantis]

Building up a core group is a great way to start.

I started teaching in a gymnastic center, and a rec center.

Yes, 50K is terrific. Once you get your curriculum hammered out and everything you offer - basically "your product," then market, market, market.
Don't wait for people to come in the door. Go out and get them.

Joe

[Oso]

I taught for a bit over 2 years in both a gym where i was paid by the hour ($20) and a rec center where I did a 70(me)/30(rec ctr) split. When I found my first building I only did it because I could cover the rent w/ the students I had.

before signing the first lease I met with my students and parents to let them know my plan and to ensure their continued support. I was basically guaranteed that everyone was going to stick with me during the move. Within 2 months I'd lost 25% of them for one reason or another.

the same thing happened last summer when we moved to a larger space but not quite to the same degree...only about 15% loss.

simply put, change is bad. so, if you think about starting in the rec center/gym route with plans to go 'commercial' later, anticipate that loss with any move.

[Oso]

finally got to some of the vids taken at our open house on the 17th.

just have one uploaded so far.

this is two of my kids. both are almost 8 (whups, just informed they are 8 and 9) and have been training for just over a year and this is their second time sparring.

there's lots of background noise so you might turn the volume down a bit first.

also, I'm surprised at the vid quality given that it was shot with a 3.2 megapixel camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D79qRTyXWmM

[Oso]

New pics from our open house up now.

http://www.ashevillemartialarts.com/Photos.htm

I have some vids from the day but it will be a while before I can get them edited and up.

[PangQuan]

nice space man. looks like you have plenty of room and smiling faces.

grats :D

[Oso]

t'anks :)

.....

[Oso]

posting this here to continue the blog of sorts...


went to the GLT this weekend...we did ok. All of my students competed in the beginner division as all of them but the woman have just been training with me since December. Two of them, the heavy and the 165 have had some karate/tkd as kids/teens and the 165 has had some boxing training...but no prior full contact experience.

S (the woman) won her only fight but her opponent should not have been in the ring. pretty sad and from what I heard, her boyfriend prompted her to fight with basically no training for full contact. she was crying after the first round. not dissing her...totally dissing her boyfriend/coach: he was completely irresponsible in his actions.

A(heavy) only one other beginner heavy. He won through better striking but learned what a single leg takedown was all about.

J(165) lost his first match. He got taken down a couple of times and taken out of the ring as well w/ takedowns resulting in ring outs which decided the loss.

F(135) won his first and lost his second resulting in 2nd place. Hard to say specifically why except the other guy was better. F did well all around but could have had more speed.

J and F lost to guys from the same team...TAMA I think but not sure.

Anyone out there from TAMA? You're guys are good and you show good sportsmanship as well. We look forward to seeing you guys again. : )


soo...back to practice...more drilling takedown defense. my folks had the cardio side covered well enough for beginner division but could really use more practice against folks outside our school...that's tough to find down here but I'm working on it. Our Kempo friends have been by a couple times and will hopefully be more regular visitors in the future.

we didn't take many stills at all. we have the fights on vid and will get them ready for web as soon as we can.

here is one of everyone but me post tourney

the second is one taken when we stopped at Lake Erie for a bit of sight seeing on the way back today...kinda cheesy posey but, hey, we look good :D

[Oso]

months back I had entered us in a local radio stations pool for 'business of the week'

we got drawn for this week. we get some free stuff from Sam's and Kinko's and daily mention on the radio station this week. We will also have a chance (25%) to win a $1000 advertising package from the radio station if drawn this coming friday.

also, I sent the local newspaper our results from the GLT this past weekend and the sports editor emailed me back and said he'll run something about it this week.

:)

[xcakid]

J(165) lost his first match. He got taken down a couple of times and taken out of the ring as well w/ takedowns resulting in ring outs which decided the loss.




"ring outs" wat dat mean? :confused:


You look like you have a good group there.

[Oso]

if you move or get pushed/kicked/punched out of bounds then it's 3 points for your opponent and if it happens twice in a round, they win the round.


thanks...they're doing alright...all of them but the woman have just been training with me since December/January.

[xcakid]

if you move or get pushed/kicked/punched out of bounds then it's 3 points for your opponent and if it happens twice in a round, they win the round.





Ahhh....that's a new terminology for me. :o I know you got penalized for running out of the ring. But getting penalized for being hit out of the ring is new to me. I never fought full contact(SanDa/SanShou) Ya learn something new everyday.

[Oso]

'ring out' may be my term and not the general term

passivity is a separate issue.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Yeah, I fell victim to the ring out rule myself. In these rules you need to know where you are on the mat at all times. Was a good tournament and fun was had by all. Congrats again Matt to all your guys. I'll post my fight on here as soon as I get everything changed over.

[Oso]

sorry I missed seeing your fight.

with all the kfm peeps in the Akron area, i'd a thought we'd a seen a bunch more people from here.

we'll definitely be there next year.