Efficiency and Effectiveness

[Fu-Pow]

Every single debate that you will see on this board is usually about efficiency vs effectiveness.

Effiency are synonyms but there is a slight difference in meaning:

EFFECTIVE stresses the actual production of or the power to produce an effect <an effective rebuttal>.

EFFICIENT suggests an acting or a potential for action or use in such a way as to avoid loss or waste of energy in effecting, producing, or functioning <an efficient small car>.

On one extreme...internal martial arts...yes..its very efficient but is it effective? How do you know?

On the other extreme MMA...yes its effective but is it efficient as it could be?

External is somewhere in the middle in this argument.

Like Siddharta Gautama I think the answer is somewhere in the middle......that is internal martial arts that you pressure test.

efficiently effective.

[FuXnDajenariht]

didn't we have this exact same discussion before? im pretty sure we did.

[SPJ]

efficiency and effectiveness/efficacy.

if the move is simple/straightforward, then it is "easy" to move the energy/qi around toward a general direction (Fa Jin)--

if the move is several submoves in a sequence temporally, then it is more difficult to shuffle your qi and jin around.

Tai Chi uses circular moves all over the joints and max the efficiency and efficacy or move Qi and Jin around "easier".
and yet there is still a general direction toward (Fa Jin).

you contact, merge/stick and redirect/guide the opponent's Jin with your little peng Jin/outward and then you Fa Jin with your own Jin.

the theory of the circle, wheel, ball etc etc.

Ba Gua called the circular outward Yuan Cheng Jin. your posture is circled or wrapped/ coiled, you suddenly uncoil outward.

Xing Yi has unwinding spiral jin around the wrist and forearm with similar ideas.

the standing posture practice is to get your structure right before and after Fa Jin.

and accumulate Qi --

--

[SPJ]

I was talking about techniques and practice.

we all know that no pressure test against resistent opponent or fight in a ring.

how do you your technique are any good?

the long story of arguement short;

spar or fight to know the effectiveness or efficacy of your training and techniques?

the counter argument is that

if the technique is worked out before with many generations of practitioners, do we have to pressure test it again to prove it works?

or just to prove that you suck at them?

-

[Knifefighter]

Effectiveness and efficiency are inexorably intertwined. Training in a live, resisting manner, such as is done in MMA wil develop both.

[Knifefighter]

if the technique is worked out before with many generations of practitioners, do we have to pressure test it again to prove it works?
or just to prove that you suck at them?
Yes... because the the person doing the techniques is part and parcel of techniques themselves. A person who has never pressure techniques will not be very good at them because pressure testing is part of developing the ability to apply the techniques.

[Eddie]

knifefighter,
if you really want to learn how to survive the streets, why not then just buy an AK47 and carry that along with you all the time. Probably the most effective way to self defence. Much better than MMA.

I promise you, MMA as most people see it, isnt all they think it is. If you keep training, and you're fighting fit ALL the time, it would help, but reality is, someone will attack you when you feel at your worst. I dont think Rickson Gracy gets attacked in the street all that often. Predators select their targets, just as in nature.

I agree with fu pow. One need to seek the middle path. Whats more, one need to think why exactly we want to do martial arts. I have met some real bad ass people in my life (most of them were ex rebel soldiers whos killed people since before they have reached their teens) and very few of them have had any formal martial arts training. Most of those guys will take you on and be successful in their attack, without following structure.

Actually, its pointless arguing this to someone who lives in the luxuary of modern 1st world environment. The point is, we all have different reasons why we play the martial arts we do. If its all defence you want, I can go out my front door and probably walk half a mile in any direction and get an AK47 for less than $50.

[Eddie]

Also,
I dont know about your country, but down here you are more likely to get attacked by someone who is physically fit and strong. Usually someone who sleeps in a tin shack, who does physical labor, and who comes from a ruthless culture where they have little compassion and regards life as a luxuary. Usually these guys would have been shot before, probably been stabbed a few times, and most certainly been beaten to a pulp on more than a dozen occations. Most of these people will kill their own mothers if she disrespects them, so how do you prepare for that? What MMA technique will help you in that situation?

One need to think long term. If you see MMA as a sport, fine. Its probably very realistic combat sport. Self defence, sure its realistic to a point. Take it for what it is.

CMA is an holistic approach to combat. Its all about sustainability (of your body and mind). If you see it in that context, over long period of time, I am almost certain that CMA gets a higher score on both of fu pow's listings than MMA.

This past weekend I spend time again training with my shaolin teacher, Master Wong guan quan. He is in his 60's and by far still the best fighting coach I have ever met. Not only that, he is fast as lightning, and strong as an ox. His mind is sharp and his responses are better than any 30 odd year old MMA person I have ever met. He also doesnt look a day over 35 either. When I look at this, I realise that there is more to martial arts than just becomming the best fighter (now).

Mohammed Ali was a good boxer when he was younger. Today, hes a wreck. Perhaps if concidered fu pows model, things would have been different.

[Knifefighter]

knifefighter,
if you really want to learn how to survive the streets, why not then just buy an AK47 and carry that along with you all the time.
In CA, we can't do that.
If we could, I would.
I carry what I can carry here.
Whatever you carry should be trained in as realistic a manner as is possible.


[/QUOTE]Much better than MMA. [/QUOTE]
Not if your goal is to be able to defend yourself while unarmed.


I have met some real bad ass people in my life (most of them were ex rebel soldiers whos killed people since before they have reached their teens) and very few of them have had any formal martial arts training.
And with training, they would be even more bad ass.


If its all defence you want, I can go out my front door and probably walk half a mile in any direction and get an AK47 for less than $50.
That's great. If you can do that, you should.

[SifuAbel]

For once, I'm not going to auto-flame Knifey. You do need to pressure test YOURSELF.

Its the person that needs testing more than anything else. What SPJ was getting at was that techniques that have been tested for millennia need not be treated like some new machine. That its usually the person not making the technique work. The techniques themselves are actually quite simple if you took a clear look at them. Punches, blocks, kicks, throws, footwork. Etc etc. Its usually a lack of coordination and understanding of context that people have the most trouble with.

[SPJ]

the max effectiveness and efficacy would be one strike and end it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G-dyrBtcyQ

it is proved that your fist is faster than the snake.

talking about evolution of million's years for the snake

and evolution of Kung Fu since Dharma visited Shaolin some thousand years ago.

some thing to think about!

--

edit:

it is an entertaining post.

:D

[Knifefighter]

Also,
I dont know about your country, but down here you are more likely to get attacked by someone who is physically fit and strong. Usually someone who sleeps in a tin shack, who does physical labor, and who comes from a ruthless culture where they have little compassion and regards life as a luxuary. Usually these guys would have been shot before, probably been stabbed a few times, and most certainly been beaten to a pulp on more than a dozen occations. Most of these people will kill their own mothers if she disrespects them, so how do you prepare for that? What MMA technique will help you in that situation?
MMA would prepare you better than the way most CMA trains.


This past weekend I spend time again training with my shaolin teacher, Master Wong guan quan. He is in his 60's and by far still the best fighting coach I have ever met. Not only that, he is fast as lightning, and strong as an ox. His mind is sharp and his responses are better than any 30 odd year old MMA person I have ever met. He also doesnt look a day over 35 either. When I look at this, I realise that there is more to martial arts than just becomming the best fighter (now).
Mohammed Ali was a good boxer when he was younger. Today, hes a wreck. Perhaps if concidered fu pows model, things would have been different.
Training at the highest end of any physical activity increases your risk of injury... that definitely goes with the territory.

However, there are many examples of full-contact fighters who are old and spry. Helio Gracie in his eighties would probably lay waste to just about any CMA "master" in his sixties.

[Eddie]

Perhaps we look at combat training in two very different ways.

Tell me honestly, how long can you keep up with MMA training? Im sure not as long as you can doing 'traditional' CMA (or any MA for that matter).

Point is, your least likely to become a victom of violent crime when you are fighting fit (I said least likely). We buy retirement insurance and health insurance, maybe we should look at combat and self defence in the same way.

[Knifefighter]

You do need to pressure test YOURSELF. Its the person that needs testing more than anything else. What SPJ was getting at was that techniques that have been tested for millennia need not be treated like some new machine. That its usually the person not making the technique work. The techniques themselves are actually quite simple if you took a clear look at them.

Exactly...
For once in his posting lifetime, Able makes an intelligent point.

[SifuAbel]

MMA would prepare you better than the way most CMA trains.



Some CMAists don't train like CMA, if that makes any sense. Whats Ironic is that CMA trained properly has most of the same traits as what some of the higher level MMAers train.

[Eddie]

However, there are many examples of full-contact fighters who are old and spry. Helio Gracie in his eighties would probably lay waste to just about any CMA "master" in his sixties.

Didnt helio gracie do some traditional jiujutsu or something too?

I'm sure for every 'old' MMA fighter that are still physically capable in their 60's, there are hordes of ... lets say 'holistic' fighters in their 60's who can still pack out like people half their age.

Thats pretty much my arguement. Not sure if I convey myself correctly in this medium. Hope you understand what Im trying to get at.

[SifuAbel]

Exactly...
For once in his posting lifetime, Able makes an intelligent point.


Ok, now its your turn. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Tell me honestly, how long can you keep up with MMA training? Im sure not as long as you can doing 'traditional' CMA (or any MA for that matter).
Tell that to Helio's 60 some years of training.
I've been training for 30 years.

BTW, it's not like there are a ton of old CMA guys out there doing much training. Most old CMA "practitioners" don't do much training... those who do train or teach spend much more standing around talking about techniques than actually doing them.

[Eddie]

Some CMAists don't train like CMA, if that makes any sense. Whats Ironic is that CMA trained properly has most of the same traits as what some of the higher level MMAers train.

thanks for that. Exactly what I was trying to say. :cool:

[Fu-Pow]

knifefighter,
if you really want to learn how to survive the streets, why not then just buy an AK47 and carry that along with you all the time. Probably the most effective way to self defence. Much better than MMA.

Ok...so that would actually be the most effective...haha....but I'm thinking specifically in terms of hand to hand or weapon to weapon combat...what we think of when we think of martial arts.

I agree with Knifefighter that efficiency and effectiveness are interlinked,efficiency is not efficiency if it isn't effective.

So the point is that maybe you start out working only on effectiveness (ie the external approach) or you start only working on efficiency which is the Internal Martial Arts approach. But at some point those paths need to meet or you end up with MMA Roid Beasts killing themselves in the gym (very inefficient, very effective) or Tofu Internal Chi Blasters who have never tested hands (very ineffective, maybe efficient but at what?.)

Those are the extremes and I seriously doubt anybody actually lives in those extremes.....as we move toward the middle we reach the ideal. That is somebody that is very effective but in the most efficient manner possible, without breaking a sweat....and there is higher potential there as well because as you increase efficiency of movement, techniques that are effective become more so. As you use less energy you have more energy to use in an altercation. As the Taiji saying goes, "move 1000 lbs with 4 ounces."

So you can't move to greater efficiency until you know that you're techniques are effective. That is the problem with traditional arts. We take it on FAITH that were are becoming efficient at something that is already effective. But if you never work to greater efficiency then you are wasteful. People that only spar, hit the gym hard and never work on structure or form, are forbidable but very wasteful in their movement and expenditure of energy. So you really can't have one without the other and both approaches are needed.


If its all defence you want, I can go out my front door and probably walk half a mile in any direction and get an AK47 for less than $50.

That's scary but you live in South Africa so it makes sense...keep your head down!

FP

[Knifefighter]

the max effectiveness and efficacy would be one strike and end it all.
Maximum effectiveness and efficiency also includes blocking, parrying, or evading that strike.

[Eddie]

BTW, it's not like there are a ton of old CMA guys out there doing much training. Most old CMA "practitioners" don't do much training... those who do train or teach spend much more standing around talking about techniques than actually doing them.


I agree, but I know allot of MMA guys who probably do the same. You can train, and you can train. Its probably the 'intend' that seperates the wannabees from the rest.

I think maybe you just need to start looking at real good CMA fighters. Maybe you have lost confidence in CMA players and are now generalising.

Dont get me wrong, I think MMA is great, but I think TCMA done correctly, is probably better.

[lkfmdc]

A friend of mine is a personal trainer, studying a lot of cutting edge material and research on training, fitness, etc,,,,, very smart guy, able to undertsand stuff I have no clue about, I was talking to him, and hte overwhelming trend is that people are exercising much later into life, start early, keep going... liek KF said, Helio is still VERY ACTIVE for his age

[Knifefighter]

I think maybe you just need to start looking at real good CMA fighters.
think MMA is great, but I think TCMA done correctly, is probably better.
Where are these CMA fighters that are better than MMA fighters?

[Fu-Pow]

Also,

Efficacy means something a little different:

EFFICACIOUS suggests possession of a special quality or virtue that gives effective power <a detergent that is efficacious in removing grease>.

[Fu-Pow]

Maximum effectiveness and efficiency also includes blocking, parrying, or evading that strike.

I think that the argument is not over the effective end result which is a block, a parry or an evade, but over how you do it....with what efficiency?

Is it always important to be efficient? Maybe not always but the accumulation of small ineffiencies leads to a big inefficiency.

Maybe we need to examine this in context of time as well....Eddie is looking over a lifetime.....KF is looking over a fighting career.

FP

[Eddie]

Where are these CMA fighters that are better than MMA fighters?

you live in the USA, I'm sure there are some good TCMA fighters around. I have met a few of them, and I live in the azz side of the world.

[Knifefighter]

you live in the USA, I'm sure there are some good TCMA fighters around. I have met a few of them, and I live in the azz side of the world.
I'm not claiming there are no good TCMA fighters.
I am claiming that there are probably many more good MMA fighters than there are good TCMA fighters.

You are stating that TCMA training is better than MMA training. I am asking you to give evidence of TCMA fighters being better than MMA fighters.

[lkfmdc]

a good CMA fighter and a good MMA figher should be virtually impossible to differentiate, both would have to have well rounded skills, reaction, conditioning etc

[Knifefighter]

Maybe we need to examine this in context of time as well....Eddie is looking over a lifetime.....KF is looking over a fighting career.
From 20-something to 80-something is not a lifetime?

[SPJ]

Maximum effectiveness and efficiency also includes blocking, parrying, or evading that strike.

yes, tell that to the snake that has no limbs and crawls on the tummie.

:D

[Eddie]

Im not really saying a good CMA fighter is better than a good MMA fighter. Im saying CMA training and approach over the long term is probably better than MMA training approach. I also agree with Mr Ross (and I suppose you, but seems like you have little or no faith in cma).

My arguement is about training methods mostly.

I think most martial arts are only as effective as the player, or I should add, its only as effective as how the player feels at that moment.

But as I always say, a real fighter should also always know and remember his own weaknesses and inabilities. You then compensate for that.

[Knifefighter]

yes, tell that to the snake that has no limbs and crawls on the tummie.

People are not snakes.

Anyone who thinks they can fight like a snake really has no clue about anything related to fighting.

[Eddie]

From 20-something to 80-something is not a lifetime?

how many 80 year old MMA fighters are there out there?

The reality of it, and this is somehting we like to sweep under the carpert, as with most professional sports, there are also a high level of drug abuse amongst fighters. Not only steriods, but even narcotics. The turn over ratio of good fighters are pretty high. Sure there are some who stand the test of time, but those guys are in the minority. Im sure for those guys, it probably wouldnt matter what style of MA they were doing, they all have fighting in their blood.

This site is dedicated to CMA. Perhaps allot of us has lost the plot along the lines, but i strongly feel that CMA can still be as effective as any other style of MA.

[SPJ]

People are not snakes.

Anyone who thinks they can fight like a snake really has no clue about anything related to fighting.

yes. there is the snake style.

and many moves/postures mimicking the snake.

I wonder why?

:D

[Knifefighter]

yes. there is the snake style.
and many moves/postures mimicking the snake.
I wonder why?

Same reason there is so much other B.S. in CMA.

Because the people doing this cr@p aren't out there doing any pressure testing.

[SPJ]

au contraire my friend;

we agreed about the need to pressure test etc.

My snake analog posts are about

we would use whatever we have or are good at to develop a most efficient and effective way for us to fight.

what is max for me, may not be for you.

a snake with no limbs and crawls may develop a way to strike, bite and inject venom etc. it is the max for the snake after million's years of evolution.

so what is max for you is dependent on

your physical attributes and many other factors.

--

training protocol or regime would be varied for each person.

--

etc etc

:)

[SPJ]

Same reason there is so much other B.S. in CMA.

Because the people doing this cr@p aren't out there doing any pressure testing.

please list all the BS about CMA

I like to know.

[Knifefighter]

please list all the BS about CMA

I like to know.

I'll list one-

The fact that there are CMA people who are not snakes thinking they can fight like snakes and fooling their students into thinking the same, while there is not a shred of evidence of anyone ever actaully fighting this way.

[Eddie]

I'll list one-

The fact that there are CMA people who are not snakes think they can fight like snakes and fooling their students into thinking the same, while there is not a shred of evidence of anyone ever actaully fighting this way.

surely you are not that ignorant KF? You must be toying with SPJ. If you undertand 'fighting' the way you say you do, you would understand exactly wjhy that statement makes you look like a total fool. No insult intended

[SPJ]

it's all good.

:D

[Knifefighter]

surely you are not that ignorant KF? You must be toying with SPJ. If you undertand 'fighting' the way you say you do, you would understand exactly wjhy that statement makes you look like a total fool. No insult intended

Really, why is that?
Enlighten me.

[Ronin maximus]

I'll list one-

The fact that there are CMA people who are not snakes thinking they can fight like snakes and fooling their students into thinking the same, while there is not a shred of evidence of anyone ever actaully fighting this way.


Ever heard of a headlock or arm bar?....


Snake techniques:D

[Eddie]

fighting is not about shapes and structure. I doubt anyone what plays snake style actually think they are actualyl immitating the snake, are they?
the strategy, theory and intend might be what they are looking for.

[Knifefighter]

Ever heard of a headlock or arm bar?....
Snake techniques


yes, tell that to the snake that has no limbs and crawls on the tummie.
My post was directed at that.
How does an arm bar or headlock have anything to do with crawling on your stomach and not having any limbs?

[Knifefighter]

The reality of it, and this is somehting we like to sweep under the carpert, as with most professional sports, there are also a high level of drug abuse amongst fighters. Not only steriods, but even narcotics. The turn over ratio of good fighters are pretty high. Sure there are some who stand the test of time, but those guys are in the minority. Im sure for those guys, it probably wouldnt matter what style of MA they were doing, they all have fighting in their blood.
Speaking of ignorance... the majority of MMA practitioners are not pro fighters.
Most train, have full time jobs and do not use drugs.
Most train, compete a few times, and then just train from then on out.

[rogue]

MMA would prepare you better than the way most CMA trains.

While I think you would execute techniques better with MMA, it will not prepare you much better than TMA for what happens on the street. One of the few times I disagree with you Dale.

[Ronin maximus]

My post was directed at that.
How does an arm bar or headlock have anything to do with crawling on your stomach and not having any limbs?


Watch the coiling moves more closely. Those moves include head locks and arm bars amongst other tehniques you have deemed "ineffective"

What snake style crawls on their stomach?

[Knifefighter]

While I think you would execute techniques better with MMA, it will not prepare you much better than TMA for what happens on the street. One of the few times I disagree with you Dale.
Really?
You don't think going hard against a fully resisting opponents who are trying as hard has they can to take you out prepares you better than doing light sparring and pretending to fight against mutliple opponents and defend their weapons when they are really not going anything at close to full-force?

[Knifefighter]

Watch the coiling moves more closely. Those moves include head locks and arm bars amongst other tehniques you have deemed "ineffective"

LOL @ taking head locks and arm bars and trying to extrapolate those from anything a snake would do.

A perfect example of CMA total B.S nonsense.

Why not just make up a style based on predator fish movements? It wouldn't be any more stupid.

I can see it now "Tuna Kung Fu".... bhwahahahahaha!!!!

[Black Jack II]

I don't think that was what Rogue was stating. Just guessing and not speaking for him at all.

it will not prepare you much better than TMA for what happens on the street.-

I agree with this is certain terms as well.

You don't think going hard against a fully resisting opponents who are trying as hard has they can to take you out-

Going hard is great man, I love mma, but that statement is just not true. The guy is not fully resisting and is not trying as hard as he can to take you out when you compare it to a determined career street criminal. Just by the nature of the two different enviroments they are in, you can see the logic in that.

One is fighting and the other is combat. I am using Marc MacYoungs personal discriptions of how they are different from each other in that statement.

[rogue]

Really?
You don't think going hard against a fully resisting opponents who are trying as hard has they can to take you out prepares you better than doing light sparring and pretending to fight against mutliple opponents and defend their weapons when they are really not going anything at close to full-force?

I think that is a great thing about MMA but amongst other things it still doesn't teach common sense, tell tales of if someone is carrying or deploying a weapon and many other things that may matter in a street altercation. Of course MMA schools don't usually claim to teach such things but that doesn't make them much better than the run of the mill TMA school for such things.

Right on the money Black Jack.

[Knifefighter]

fighting is not about shapes and structure.
I think most of your CMA brethren would take issue with you about fighting not being about structure.

[Knifefighter]

Going hard is great man, I love mma, but that statement is just not true. The guy is not fully resisting and is not trying as hard as he can to take you out when you compare it to a determined career street criminal. Just by the nature of the two different enviroments they are in, you can see the logic in that.

One is fighting and the other is combat. I am using Marc MacYoungs personal discriptions of how they are different from each other in that statement.

Have you fought a well-trained MMA fighter in an MMA bout?
If not, then you probably don't have a clue about how much the other guy is trying to take you out and what his abilities are to do so.

[Knifefighter]

I think that is a great thing about MMA but amongst other things it still doesn't teach common sense, tell tales of if someone is carrying or deploying a weapon and many other things that may matter in a street altercation. Of course MMA schools don't usually claim to teach such things but that doesn't make them much better than the run of the mill TMA school for such things.
As many street oriented MMA training programs are showing, all you have to do is take the same MMA training model, make a couple of modifications and you've got something much better than TMA "street" training.

[rogue]

Maybe better but still falls short of the mark. Here's what we're talking about Dale. Tell us how MMA prepares you for this? Where I live I have to assume that the other person is carrying concealed.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44813

[Ronin maximus]

LOL @ taking head locks and arm bars and trying to extrapolate those from anything a snake would do.

A perfect example of CMA total B.S nonsense.

Why not just make up a style based on predator fish movements? It wouldn't be any more stupid.

I can see it now "Tuna Kung Fu".... bhwahahahahaha!!!!

Don't snakes choke their prey? Have you ever even seen a snake form? If you have , your eyesight is worse than your sense of humor.

I HAVE defended myself, successfully, using TMA techniques and not in any pressure test (that is still a controlled envirornment) but on the STREET.

As for your Tuna style comment, you are a child poking fun at what you will never understand...... until you are 70 years old and can no longer "roll".

And then you will wish you had something you could still practice..

I agree w/ your view of "reality" training, but you are still practicing in a controlled environment.


Now I am going so insert your silly comment now........:D

[Knifefighter]

Maybe better but still falls short of the mark. Here's what we're talking about Dale. Tell us how MMA prepares you for this? Where I live I have to assume that the other person is carrying concealed.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44813

That post is referencing use of force for law enforecement or someone who is using a firearm (not defending empty-handed against one) to defend himself.

Of course MMA does not prepare you for using a firearm.

However, if one ends up in a hand-to hand struggle for control of the firearm, the guy with MMA training is going to have an advantage over the CMA trained guy who is not used to doing full force grappling.

[Knifefighter]

Don't snakes choke their prey? Have you ever even seen a snake form? If you have , your eyesight is worse than your sense of humor.

LOL @ thinking a snake wraps itself around the neck of its prey.
WHOSE eyesight is bad?
Bwhahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!

Snakes do not choke their prey. Snakes that kill their prey by constriction, do so by suffocation. They wrap their entire bodies around the torso of their prey, so that the animal cannot breath, causing suffocation.

What's even more ridiculous is trying to extrapolate a snake's suffocation technique to a human's carotoid artery constriction technique... a perfect recipe for developing techniques that don't work.

[yutyeesam]

KF-
Just curious to know if you or other serious MMA practitioners practice anything like Tai Chi, Yoga, meditation or something internal at all, to enable faster healing?

Typically, it seems like great athletes have some form of meditative practice.

-123

[Knifefighter]

As for your Tuna style comment, you are a child poking fun at what you will never understand...... until you are 70 years old and can no longer "roll".
How old are you?
What makes you think you have a clue about what someone can or cannot do when he gets older?

[Ronin maximus]

have you started this same debate to say the same things you always say?

I think you enjoy firing people up and derive some kind of sick pleasure from it.

Whatever I, or anyone else say you will always make fun of .
As I said in the "Chi Vampirism" thread (which you should read)
there are 2 sides to every coin.

ANYONE who tries to debate with you is a fool (myself included, 'cause I fell into your trap again) 'cause you're like a born again Christian or a Jehovah's witness who can only see one way.
And then you cover your ears and go "LALALALALA, I can't hear you!"



PLEASE, everyone, ignore this guy when he starts this crap again!!!!
'cause he's like a broken record and will just keep steering the conversations to his own satisfaction.

[rogue]

That post is referencing use of force for law enforecement or someone who is using a firearm (not defending empty-handed against one) to defend himself.

Of course MMA does not prepare you for using a firearm.

However, if one ends up in a hand-to hand struggle for control of the firearm, the guy with MMA training is going to have an advantage over the CMA trained guy who is not used to doing full force grappling.

No it's not aimed at LEOs, it is aimed at the civilian and is similar to what I've been taught. Like I said, here where I live I have to assume that the other person can be carrying concealed.

When it comes to weapons retention there are a lot of things that a MMA may do out of habit that will get him killed. Sorry but the MMA fairy can't wave his magic wand and give you skills, habits and knowledge for things that you have not trained. You also have to ask what happened that you are now in a struggle for control of your weapon. It happens but did you do something super stupid?

[Ronin maximus]

How old are you?
What makes you think you have a clue about what someone can or cannot do when he gets older?


I'm 40 and about to have double hip replacement, so "rolling" is over for me already.

[Knifefighter]

I'm 40 and about to have double hip replacement, so "rolling" is over for me already.

Don't you find it hypocritical that, as CMA guy at age 40, you are already having to have double hip replacement and are going on about what MMA guys are going to do at 70 when they can no longer roll?

[Black Jack II]

Knife,

You said-

Have you fought a well-trained MMA fighter in an MMA bout?

If not, then you probably don't have a clue about how much the other guy is trying to take you out and what his abilities are to do so.-

To answer your question bro, no I have not. But its not the same man. The attacker is still not fully resisting as he is limited to certain concepts, viewpoints and tools once he is in the ring. In MMA you have rules, you have towl men, you have refs, you have medics, you are choosing to be in that situation. That makes the enviroment a different issue and by enviroment its not just the physical enviroment which is different but its the emotional enviroment as well.

I am not saying the difference is not better by alive training. I think alive training is really-really important. Its just that the guy in the mma ring can not be compared in a couple of issues to the career criminal or crazed skell on the street trying to break into your house.

[Knifefighter]

When it comes to weapons retention there are a lot of things that a MMA may do out of habit that will get him killed. Sorry but the MMA fairy can't wave his magic wand and give you skills, habits and knowledge for things that you have not trained.
Exactly... and that is what the MMA model is all about. Specificity of training. Take the same model and apply it to self-defense and weapons retention/usage.


You also have to ask what happened that you are now in a struggle for control of your weapon. It happens but did you do something super stupid?
I'm guessing it means you didn't have your weapon with you and the struggle is for his weapon.

[Black Jack II]

exactly... and that is what the MMA model is all about. Specificity of training. Take the same model and apply it to self-defense and weapons retention/usage-

This makes perfect sense. You don't have to be combative sport MMA to do this though. A number of jkd/combative style schools take that viewpoint in practice.

[Knifefighter]

I am not saying the difference is not better by alive training. I think alive training is really-really important. Its just that the guy in the mma ring can not be compared in a couple of issues to the career criminal or crazed skell on the street or the one breaking into your house.
Sure they are different.

In some respects the MMA fighter is tougher to beat. The MMA fighter is almost always fully conditioned, technically knowledgeable, strong, and prepared for a long battle.

There are also rules and a ref to limit what you can do to him. You are not allowed to use weapons against him... you cannot bite him... you have to let him go if he taps... you cannot kill him.

[Black Jack II]

In some respects the MMA fighter is tougher to beat. The MMA fighter is almost always fully conditioned, technically knowledgeable, strong, and prepared for a long battle.-

If I may knife, here is a difference from the other side.

The criminal may not be full conditioned because and here is the point. He does not want a long battle nor does he plan for one. He plans for a short, brutal, to the point confrontation, which ever way gets him to his goal the fastest.

As for technically knowledeable, you can't say that, as its a different type of knowledge due to a different type of enviroment, its not about arm bars or ring strategy to this guy, this guy may be a dumb ass in a lot of respects but in this section he may be a genius in setting people up. To this type of charater its about putting himself in the best position to take out his target with the least risk to himself due to jail.

[Charles T Rose]

Just a note on Helio Gracie...any training he has done in the last 60 yrs has been playing with his sons and family,not grinding it out on the mat down at the local dojo with the 20somethings.

[Knifefighter]

Just a note on Helio Gracie...any training he has done in the last 60 yrs has been playing with his sons and family,not grinding it out on the mat down at the local dojo with the 20somethings.

Just a note for people who post about Helio, but really don't have a clue about what he has done...

When I was training at the Torrance Gracie academy, he was in his late 70's.

Most of the guys that he was handling with ease were in their 20's.

[rogue]

I'm guessing it means you didn't have your weapon with you and the struggle is for his weapon.

Could be or I couldn't get to it, and that opens up the same can of worms with weapons retention but just in reverse.

[Fu-Pow]

Wow what a tangent....I especially liked the snake argument...not!

[msg]

people that are bringing up pulling a gun are pretty dumb .it takes a weak and scared person afraid to get beat up to pull a gun anybody can pull a trigger all it takes is fear it take no training thats the most weakest thing anybody can do so even talking about it is pretty lame

[rogue]

people that are bringing up pulling a gun are pretty dumb .it takes a weak and scared person afraid to get beat up to pull a gun anybody can pull a trigger all it takes is fear it take no training thats the most weakest thing anybody can do so even talking about it is pretty lame

I'd rather be considered weak, dumb and scared but still alive. While it may not take any training to pull a trigger it does take training to draw the gun, properly react with the gun, get over the recoil, get used to low light conditions, know how to clear a jam, know what to do if you don't have time to clear a jam and many, many other little things.

So go eat some granola, and hug a tree in your fantasy world where the worst you have to worry about is getting beat up.

[Charles T Rose]

Knifefighter

Yeah I am sure a frail 130lb elderly man was handling 20 yr olds with ease...OOOOk...I am sure they roll with him just like they would everyone else.
Who is in a fantasy world again?
I have trained BJJ off and on for over 10 years so I know a little about that though I never got tossed around by Helio himself,I got choked by Royce does that count?
I do know that he is a big proponent of the self defense aspect of BJJ which is pure basic traditional JJJ.This part is basicaly ignored now which is a shame because sd techniques combined with the alive training aspect are great.

[Black Jack II]

people that are bringing up pulling a gun are pretty dumb .it takes a weak and scared person afraid to get beat up to pull a gun anybody can pull a trigger all it takes is fear it take no training thats the most weakest thing anybody can do so even talking about it is pretty lame-msn

To that above absurdity, I think my man Dr. Seuss says it best.

like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do- Dr. Seuss

[SPJ]

agreed with FP some posts back.

we always do stuff to see if it works. if it does, it is then effective.

after that we start to make it more efficient or least amount of effort and max results/effectiveness.

so how do you define the efficacy/effectiveness?

if no definition of efficacy, how can one improve on that?

1. neutralization of the opponent's force/powere/jin. or guide it away from you so that it may not harm you.

2. countermove.

3. positioning

4. timing.

5. manevure/steps.

6 rules of engagement/ tactics/strategy or do's and don/ts

--

[Eddie]

people that are bringing up pulling a gun are pretty dumb .it takes a weak and scared person afraid to get beat up to pull a gun anybody can pull a trigger all it takes is fear it take no training thats the most weakest thing anybody can do so even talking about it is pretty lame

I would agree, but in real life thats what happens. They pull out guns. Kill rape murder.

We arent talking about your saturday night pub brawl behind the local supermarket. I think we were talking self defense. :eek:

[Shaolinlueb]

its kinda ironic that every styles techniques are too deadly to be used without hurting your opponent. so we cant really tell ;) :D

[Knifefighter]

one example;
use the force in a circular way is better than in a linear way.
if you do a straigh punch, it is a stop and go. you have to pull your fist back before you may extend it again.
if you do a circle, you may keep going and any point in the circle may be your stop/go point.
that is better efficiency wise?
if I swing my fist in a vertical circle, I may hit your temple. if miss, I may keep swing the fist downward to hit your ribside, hip or kicking leg etc,
another example;
using 2 hands at the same time is better using one hand in a sequence etc.

Based on that BS, I doubt you are doing anything close to pressure testing your techs.



we always do stuff to see if it works. if it does, it is then effective.

However, I'm always willing to be proven wrong.
I see you have a bunch of videos showing forms.
How about posting a single video showing the stufff actually being done "to see if it works" to test its effectiveness?

[Knifefighter]

how so?
you can tell something from an example.
bring it on any time any place.


Are you willing to pressure test your stuff?
Any place, any time?


no. not really.
:D

Looks like I could tell a lot from your example.

I rest my case.

[msg]

to rogue and anyone else that agress with him. this is a kung fu forum, this is not a gang forum. where talking about hand to hand combat that, the point of this whole site. anyone can pull a gun on someone that's why the gangs shoot people while they drive by and keep going cause there scared to fight one on one. do anyone of guys know anything about fighting, lame us people got nothing better to do then come on these forums and type, that's your guy's skill is to type. what ever

[rogue]

May I suggest that you first go to a spelling forum before hurting our eyes here.


do anyone of guys know anything about fighting,
Yes, I know a little. But it is enough to know that in the real world it is not something that I look forward to.


where talking about hand to hand combat that, the point of this whole site.
I have to inquire, what is your definition of hand to hand combat?


anyone can pull a gun on someone that's why the gangs shoot people while they drive by and keep going cause there scared to fight one on one.
But it's hard to hit the guy you're trying to shoot from a moving car. And they are smart to be afraid to fight one on one. I notice that you do kuntao silat, if you are in a one on one fight for your life would you or wouldn't you pull a blade?