Intergrating the Loop

[Black Jack II]

Anyone intergrate the OODA concept into there training?

I was thinking about a post a few down which was addressing Chuck Liddels unorthodox striking style, and on thinking about that thread, I thought it may be interesting to bring up the OODA Loop.

OODA is an acronym which stands for Observe-Orient-Decide-Act.

Basically the OODA Loop is a model of the way our brain works. Its becoming more and more popular in certain sectors of the self defense world, such as police and military training, in respect to interpersonal conflict.

How does this help in a situation regarding self protection and how can you incorporate it into training? Easy, by using either mental or physical obscurement or disorientation you can get a better understanding of how better to reset the other persons OODA cycle before it can get to the Decide and Act part of the loop.

Observe-using obscurement you bring the it back to this point again.
Orient-using disorientation you bring it back to this point again.

Examples can be physical such as using footwork and a non chambered position to help obscure your strikes or a odd phrase used to mentally disorient someone for a brief second to use a sucker punch, entry or escape. It's all about breaking and reseting that loop before it gets to the point where he is committed to the decision of acting.

Here is a brief article by wikipedia if any are interested.:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop

[Royal Dragon]

Any good fighter already does this...

[Black Jack II]

Not really. Its not about good physical technique fighters Royal.

It's about learning to read the enviroment correctly.Good fighters get mugged, ripped off, scammed just like normal people do. I was using physical technique descriptions to just showcase.

In a self-defense situation, this mean you must be alert and observe everything happening around you, orientate and analyze this data, make a decision based upon the data, and take an appropriate action. You must complete this cycle quickly; quicker than your opponent can compete it during combat, more slowly in other times, but you must always follow the loop.

Sounds uber simple and intutitive right? But its really not, its a trainable way to look at the interval between threat recognition and effective retaliation.:)

The Air Force would not of committed the resources to studying it if it would not help there pilots in dogfight.



.

[Royal Dragon]

Sure it helps and all, but I just think it's a fancy name for what we already do in the first place.

[Black Jack II]

I agree, military acronym's always seem to sound fancy but whats nice about this model is how simple the breakdown is. If you wanted to look at it from a more soft science based perspective, to really comprehend what it is that you may be doing, it provides a breakdown.

I don't really agree though that pre-fight conflict psychology is covered a lot in traditional CMA's on the average, sounds more like guesswork and intution to me. However I do believe its covered by good teachers in the martial arts but "systems" themselves don't address how to spot this weakness.

OODA is also used in big business, sports, military, so there is something there to learn.

[Golden Arms]

Yep, I do train using OODA, Systema actually uses OODA a lot too. And some good FIGHTERS may have OODA concepts ingrained, but that doesnt mean they use it, or know how to pass it on. OODA is one of the best training devices I know of, but you have to be smart about how you integrate and create the drills that utilize it.

[Black Jack II]

I find that OODA seems to fuse well with the use of Hick's Law. That the more choices a person has, the slower they will be to react. Some people think that one-step sparring or two person drills are based on OODA but all that gives you, and I am not saying its a bad thing, some of that work is needed, is a automatic response to a by-rote attack. I see that as a very limited view of how OODA works.

I heard Systema to get around this, uses a lot of relaxed, soft style training when looking at OODA??

[Golden Arms]

I am not a Systema player, but have done a lot of parallel research to some of the stuff they base their system off of over the years. You are correct, 1 and 2 step drills are not the way to using it, except maybe at the first or base level. I dont think training ONLY OODA is viable in hand to hand combat, but I find it worked in heavily with a good set of basic skills to be invaluable.

I have a feeling though that you are not going to run into too many CMA that know about OODA or how to use it unfortunately. Maybe people will dig into it more over time, one can only hope. It definately takes some understanding of fighting to implement correctly, or else you get exactly what you are tlkaing about, people thinking 1 or 2 step drills to pre set techniques are correct OODA training.

[David Jamieson]

I think adding slick terms and business speak to martial arts doesn't really mean much. Lot's of this stuff is obvious, already in there, not necessarily in the order of the acronyms given etc etc.

yes it's good to have structure in your training, goals and objectives, but knowing a slick new term doesn't mean anything as far as what's in or not in you. :)


I would also add that one's ability to intellectually grasp what is happening has little to do with ones ability to actually do it in a physical sense.

not trying to be negative, just pointing out that it is impotant to not fall into a trap of thinking you can do because you can intellectualize something.

fighting is a very simple thing. Training methods that work well are pretty simple too in many ways. Some of them are odd, but most if not all can be done by anyone with even rudimentary intellect.

[Oso]

mnemonics are used in every type of education

ROY G BIV for instance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic

and traditional kung fu has been doing it for years. what, with all the poems and what not

a good example from Kevin Brazier's site

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/rising%20and%20falling.htm

while the english translation probably isn't much of a real mnemonic to us, i'd be willing to bet the chinese might be.





an OODA type principle is what I talk about when discussing 'self defense' with students in that the 'SD; part of the situation is in the assesment of a situation as early as possible and reacting appropriately as quickly as possible with the best bet being to beat feet if possible. once you get to physical responses to a threat, you are fighting...like it or not, and I've had people walk on me because they still believe that there are super duper once punch answers to every thing. :rolleyes:

now I have something to call it.

i likes it.

i's gonna steal it. :D

thanks

[SifuAbel]

Pft, lets see video of BLACK JACK IN ACTION. :rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

OODA is way too simple and unsophisticated.

You obviously haven't heard of the OODA enhancements that people have been making recently.

For example, there's NOODLE. Navigate Observe Orient Decide Loop Enhance. Your OODA doesn't have the enhancement built into the feedback loop, and you need to first Navigate to a safe distance before you can Observe.

However, most people find NOODLE is rather slow. When NOODLE fails, you can try RAMEN. Restrain, Attack, Mutilate, Eliminate and Nullify. Most successful MMA fighters obviously follow RAMEN rather than NOODLE.

[Oso]

that was actually kinda of funny.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, it was...and the theory works too! ;)

[Black Jack II]

Your such a cranky old man Abel.:rolleyes:

Maybe once, you might want to contribute a actual post, instead of spending your time trying to cajole strange men home for dinner. I can see it now, a scene out of Hannibal, some poor homeless guy tied up in a chair, being forced to listen to Abel talk about his illegal federal tax conspiracies, while Abel dances about the room like a dervish clad in his mom's nightgown.

PUT THE LOTION IN THE BASKET OR YOU GET THE HOSE!

[Fu-Pow]

Actually, if you have to think about what you're going to next in hand to hand combat....then .....boom...you just got hit.

Fighting is more instinct and less mental machinations.

[Black Jack II]

A few people seem to be looking at this totally wrong, its not a menu you roll over in your head before a confrontation. Its not a by-rote one..two..three kinda thing. Maybe the misunderstanding is my fault for not addressing this more clear.

You use the science behind how the OODA cycle works to better understand how drills fall apart. Here is a good article on it from a self defense point of view.

http://www.realfighting.com/issue6/aldridge.html

[Golden Arms]

Yeah, OODA is more a way to hardwire reaction to types of events into the body so that there is no thought....like dropping to the ground at the sound of a gunshot for instance...Military conditioning uses it quite a bit.

[SifuAbel]

Your such a cranky old man Abel.:rolleyes:

Maybe once, you might want to contribute a actual post, instead of spending your time trying to cajole strange men home for dinner. I can see it now, a scene out of Hannibal, some poor homeless guy tied up in a chair, being forced to listen to Abel talk about his illegal federal tax conspiracies, while Abel dances about the room like a dervish clad in his mom's nightgown.

PUT THE LOTION IN THE BASKET OR YOU GET THE HOSE!

Sooooooooooooooooooooo, no video of you?

And you don't look like an old clunky paramilitary dweeb? :rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

And you don't look like an old clunky paramilitary dweeb?


Dude, that is so lame. I don't even own camo. But I would wager you own a bunch of chinese silk pjs.:rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

This is all slick mumbo jumbo created in response to the "frozen man" "slapfest" you see in a lot of strip mall 1st gen soke point fighting krotty places. If that is the way you train then this is usefull info. At least until you get into a competant school.

So they throw the baby out with the bath water, AGAIN. Clouding the use and training of a drill. Which is for teaching the rudiments of a technique. When is that ever covered in these Bullethead training sessions? There never seems to be an explanation for that. Sounds familiar.

Many of these psychological steps can be covered in hard contact fighting.

The biggest BS in all these systems is the bullet guy training in general.

http://www.realfighting.com/issue6/images/aldrige.jpg

If anything THIS is just as unrealistic as any slap tag played in point schools.

[SifuAbel]

Dude, that is so lame. I don't even own camo. But I would wager you own a bunch of chinese silk pjs.:rolleyes:

Nope.

So, no video? Pictures? Anything?

[lunghushan]

The biggest BS in all these systems is the bullet guy training in general.

http://www.realfighting.com/issue6/images/aldrige.jpg

If anything THIS is just as unrealistic as any slap tag played in point schools.

It's just a way to sell stuff. Some guy with some pedigree comes up with some 'new' idea to sell to naive martial arts people.

The point behind NOODLE and RAMEN was to show that it is just so much silliness.

But the interesting thing behind these concepts is you find knuckleheads who buy into the B.S. and packaging.

Hell, maybe I should start selling NOODLE and RAMEN DVDs. I'll get some guy like Couture to sign into it for $ since he had to retire from the UFC, and make some dough off of the idiots.

But I'll have to change the terms because of course nobody will take NOODLE and RAMEN seriously. I'll have to change it to MAREN or NOLDOE or something.

Or not. :rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

Many of these psychological steps can be covered in hard contact fighting.

Ah, no they really cant, but you can always pretend they can.:)

[lunghushan]

Ah, no they really cant, but you can always pretend they can.:)

Yeah because in actual hard contact fighting you don't have time to play with dressed up dummies or lecture for hours.

These kind of concepts can only be covered in seminars with dummies and instructors who talk a lot and take your $.

[lunghushan]

Yeah because in actual hard contact fighting you don't have time to play with dressed up dummies or lecture for hours.

These kind of concepts can only be covered in seminars with dummies and instructors who talk a lot and take your $.

In fact, you should change the name to YOODA

Yack ... etc.

[SifuAbel]

Yeah, like the uber super ninja technique of standing with your eyes closed next to a wall, humming like a retard so you can't hear them coming, so Mr. bullet man can come up behind you to play peek-a-boo. I guess if people fall for OYD, they'll fall for this too. Maybe they just need it to feel competant. They suck at fighting otherwise so they'll pay top dollar for these brain **** seminars.

[SifuAbel]

Ah, no they really cant, but you can always pretend they can.:)

Do you do any hard contact fighting? You know, where the person you're fighting isn't wearing 1000 dollars of duct tape and he hits you equally as hard? Video?

[Black Jack II]

LOL,

The article is about OODA principles applied to drills yet you guys focus on the handmade bullet man in the back of the picture. Way to stay focused, but I know its hard when some of you are stuck with the white-guys verison of Chinese fever, totally missing the point.

Stay stuck in the past. It's where I like to keep you.:rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

LOL,

The article is about OODA principles applied to drills yet you guys focus on the handmade bullet man in the back of the picture. Way to stay focused, but I know its hard when some of you are stuck with the white-guys verison of Chinese fever, totally missing the point.

Stay stuck in the past. It's where I like to keep you.:rolleyes:

Bullet Man is the guy in the article that looks like a bullet, isn't it? That he's doing 'drills' with?

Bottom line is people have been doing bare-handed and weapons fighting for how long now in human history? Do you really think there's anything new?

These so-called 'new fighting systems' are just a load of B.S. that people make up for $. Usually people who never stuck around long enough to really learn the martial art, so they think they need to make up for its 'shortcomings'.

The author in the drills article makes the point that there's no negative feedback loop built into most drills.

Well, drills are not for unscripted fighting. That's why they call them drills. SPARRING is for unscripted fighting. Negative feedback is built INTO SPARRING.

Anyways, whatever.

[SifuAbel]

LOL,

The article is about OODA principles applied to drills yet you guys focus on the handmade bullet man in the back of the picture. Way to stay focused, but I know its hard when some of you are stuck with the white-guys verison of Chinese fever, totally missing the point.

Stay stuck in the past. It's where I like to keep you.:rolleyes:

Pft, the only thing you are keeping is your shlong in your hand. as usual.

Apart from your racially motivated hate speak which will get a cap in your ass one day. Let me be clear that while the method's ideology is somewhat of an overglorified way of doing drills correctly. The execution of such is what is lacking.

[SifuAbel]

Do you do any hard contact fighting? You know, where the person you're fighting isn't wearing 1000 dollars of duct tape and he hits you equally as hard? Video?

Well? Do you?

[Black Jack II]

Cap in my ass.....LMAO.

Chinese fever is what I nickname those white kungfu dudes who have watched way...way...way...to much Kungfu Theater on the weekends and forget about the real world around them. Not my fault you may fit into that category dude.



Let me be clear that while the method's ideology is somewhat of an overglorified way of doing drills correctly. The execution of such is what is lacking.

Lacking in execution how? What basis?

Your a nut who believes that the plane over the pentagon was some freakin conspiracy. That alone should point out how skewed you may be to everything around you. Including your questions about my personal training which very much have fallen into the hard contact label.

[SifuAbel]

Don't cross the beams there, sparky.

Those are other issues.

Answer my question please. The more you delay. The more you become yet another slapfest dweeb.

[Black Jack II]

Ok, I will bite. I am not sure what you are judging hard contact on but man I know I have been there.

Lets see. Here are some basics

Green Dragon Fighting Society- Yes (Ill)
Eriks Boxing Club- Yes (Ill)
Filipino systems under Guro Gavin Griggs-moderate (Il)
Mels House of Thunder- Yes (San Diego)
JKD Concepts and Core Boxing-Yes (San Diego)
Silat Seni Gayong- moderate(Il)

A bunch of other stuff thrown in along the way, a ton of seminars and clinics, personal research on western combatives, firearms training, but now I mostly focus on RBSD as I train more contextual than I once used to and yes when I do group up it can range from hard sparring to soft style work.

Oh and if you want to see a picture of me, go to Borders Bookstore and pick up a copy of the Malay Art of Self Defense by Sheikh Shamsuddin. One of the pictures is on page 215 I believe, bottom left corner, second from the right.:)

And You???

[SifuAbel]

Green Dragon Fighting Society- Yes (Ill)
Eriks Boxing Club- Yes (Ill)
Filipino systems under Guro Gavin Griggs-moderate (Il)
Mels House of Thunder- Yes (San Diego)
JKD Concepts and Core Boxing-Yes (San Diego)
Silat Seni Gayong- moderate(Il)




Count Dante?!?!?!? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[SifuAbel]

Oh and if you want to see a picture of me, go to Borders Bookstore and pick up a copy of the Malay Art of Self Defense by Sheikh Shamsuddin. One of the pictures is on page 215 I believe, bottom left corner, second from the right...............




....................Holding a tray of towels in the mens room in the back. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Golden Arms]

Man I hate being on the CMA side of things so often....

First of all, I might be mistaken, but I thought Dante was the Black Dragon Society?

And second of all, I think I understand why most of the people on this board that have trained for a while either mainly lurk, or poke fun at the other members, its just ridiculous what people think about some of this stuff. OODA is like a gold mine for any martial arts person taht doesnt use it, and instead a bunch of people that seem to have no real concept of what it is or how to implement it are shooting it down. I notice none of them are the same ones that are competitors in San Shou or something similar with heavy contact either.

[lunghushan]

Man I hate being on the CMA side of things so often....

First of all, I might be mistaken, but I thought Dante was the Black Dragon Society?

And second of all, I think I understand why most of the people on this board that have trained for a while either mainly lurk, or poke fun at the other members, its just ridiculous what people think about some of this stuff. OODA is like a gold mine for any martial arts person taht doesnt use it, and instead a bunch of people that seem to have no real concept of what it is or how to implement it are shooting it down. I notice none of them are the same ones that are competitors in San Shou or something similar with heavy contact either.

Yeah of course because we don't believe in OODA, we are stupid and dumb ... there never was a great fighter in all the thousands of years of martial arts history who used OODA. It is the next best innovation since sliced bread. You have to be a competitor in San Shou to believe in OODA.

Bottom line is this conversation is more stupid than arguing about some religious book that people made up 2000 years ago.

[SifuAbel]

I notice none of them are the same ones that are competitors in San Shou or something similar with heavy contact either.

Uh, Speak for yourself. :rolleyes: I was sparring hard before you were toilet trained.

[SifuAbel]

First of all, I might be mistaken, but I thought Dante was the Black Dragon Society?


My bad. It must be these guys.
http://www.greendragonsociety.com/new/info/articles/articles.html

I guess he had chinese fever too.

Which he attained a rank of............???????????????????

Then he meandered through here and there a little bit, buffet style.

[Black Jack II]

Heh,

Green Dragon is not count dante, not even close man, that was the black dragon karate group, no connection at all except for the name and a now infamous incident which happened in the early 1970's concerning a stabbing at one of the temple halls in downtown chicago.

That's the thing with guys like Abel, your sooo stuck in the past, rank this and rank that, like you have any idea what I do or do not have. Your stuck still thinking that spending 30 years in a single martial art makes any differences at all in the real world, you think all the knowledge exists in a static foreign methodology from hundreds of years ago, that you don't need to look at anything else and its the main reason a good amount of people would get better self defense knowledge out of a YWCA rape seminar than taking kung fu from such people.

World is filled with fools.

btw. I gave you a freebie, I answered your question, but you did not answer mine???

Whats your background and tell me about your uber duber hardcontact?

[SifuAbel]

Its numbnutz quotes like this that set off my BS meter.

"For complex martial arts styles, with hundreds of techniques, you can imagine the "overload" which can occur in the processing of this information! "

Sorry, I don't need to read through my "manual' to find an appropriate technique. This is beyond numbsckullery.

Translated into english: "Our technical knowledge is limited so we prop it up with talk."

[David Jamieson]

wikipedia is an unreliable source for information.

it's an idealists hole of 1 step forward, 2 steps back for the most part.

like forrest gumps box of chocolates that site is.

you just never know who is messing with what there. Better to use a real encyclopedia. :-)

[SifuAbel]

\
That's the thing with guys like Abel, your sooo stuck in the past, rank this and rank that, like you have any idea what I do or do not have.

And we will never know at this rate. What DO you have? Show us.

As for me? My experience? I've only been fighting since 1982. I've only had 25 years experience in various CMA styles. We've only had 10 thousand students, including people from every style, come into our school over the years. Hint: we never point sparred.

So I guess by your definition, not much. :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

\ the main reason a good amount of people would get better self defense knowledge out of a YWCA rape seminar than taking kung fu from such people.


Oops , credibility meter dropping.

English translation: " I never stuck to anything and got my ass handed to me while at the green dragon school. So I'm going to lay haterade all over CMA forums."

[lunghushan]

That's the thing with guys like Abel, your sooo stuck in the past, rank this and rank that, like you have any idea what I do or do not have. Your stuck still thinking that spending 30 years in a single martial art makes any differences at all in the real world, you think all the knowledge exists in a static foreign methodology from hundreds of years ago, that you don't need to look at anything else and its the main reason a good amount of people would get better self defense knowledge out of a YWCA rape seminar than taking kung fu from such people.

World is filled with fools.


Oh, brother ... bottom line here is ... whatever. You really think you can simplify training methodologies into a bunch of buzzwords? When it's obvious you don't even understand the training methodology to begin with?

Women goes to rape prevention class vs. kung fu class, she's probably not going to be able to prevent the rape in either case because the guy will outmass her and out-muscle her and knock her silly no matter what she does.

But when you invent buzzwords then you can copyright it and take credit for it and make yourself feel special and charge hundreds of dollars for seminars and make $$$ off of stupid people.

Bottom line is ... a ton of people on here seem to be promoting an agenda. I was a bit confused at this. But it's obvious that a lot of you are in business and are promoting a business agenda. It used to be boards were more about verbal sparring and discussing things not having to do with $.

But MA now just seems to be about business. I guess the Tracys mentality has taken over everywhere or maybe I just didn't notice it before.

[SifuAbel]

Bottom line is ... a ton of people on here seem to be promoting an agenda. I was a bit confused at this. But it's obvious that a lot of you are in business and are promoting a business agenda. It used to be boards were more about verbal sparring and discussing things not having to do with $.


Well, at least the MMA/SAN DA-Shou/ etc people are promoting fighting skill in some way or another instead of this "techniqueless" BS. Where the student just magically attains reaction time, accuracy and power from humming at a wall.

[Black Jack II]

Not falling for your retarded antics anymore Abel. Despite my better judgement I answered, well knowing anything I feed a troll he will eat.

But where is your answer?

Come on tool, let have it. Tell us about this magical hard contact, your ancient training methods to your students which provide the above stated methodology, give us some of your background? :rolleyes:

btw, humming at a wall. christ you are stupid, where did I even mention that, or anyone for that matter?

[SifuAbel]

I did already, tweaker.

[SifuAbel]

No, your link had then humming at awall. Or do you not read what you post.

http://www.realfighting.com/issue6/aldridge.html

[Knifefighter]

Black Jack-

I remember reading an article on the fighter pilot who originally came up with this concept.

Do you have any information or references to the specific ways the OODA loop was applied into pilot training?

[SifuAbel]

BJtoo has a wiki link on page one. now go away , you smell of old fish.

[Knifefighter]

Sounds pretty much like what live, hard contact training does.

Abel is right (dammmit, I hate to admit that). "Scenario" training is too acted. I dont think there is really a way to simulate real world attacks and the adrenaline dumps that interfere with the OODA loop. I think the closest you can come is full-contact competitions and challenge matches.

As far as the bullet man, both guys with gear is much better than one guy in a giant bullet-head suit pretending to assault the other one.

[SifuAbel]

Welcome to the family. LOL!!!

[Black Jack II]

I did already, tweaker

Ah, no you didn't.



Come on tool, let have it. Tell us about this magical hard contact, your ancient training methods to your students which provide the above stated methodology, give us some of your background?

I am waiting for your answer you walking uterus. What, you got Korsakoff's Syndrome or something?

You need me to ask the question over and over because you have a cognitive deficit or you just hiding your background of video tape training?????

Knife,


Scenario" training is too acted

True, its supposed to be acted. I did not say just practice scenario training anywhere in this post. Abel just has the delusion that I did. But if you look at how OODA principles work you can make the adjustments to scenario training to make them a little bit better.

I think the best approach is a combo of scenario based training and free sparring.


As far as the bullet man, both guys with gear is much better than one guy in a giant bullet-head suit pretending to assault the other one

I agree, I never even mentioned that guy in the gaint helment. Two guys in redman suits is much better. Abel and his family of idiot boy toys focus on that one picture instead of what the article actually states about drills.

It's what people do who don't understand the subject matter.:cool:

[SifuAbel]

Actually, no, the picture is just funny. Your drills are dumb.

My focus is on the link you provided.

And, no mention is made of where exactly a student acquires the skills necessary to meet the attacker after humming at a wall while your neighbor student ignores the fact that the wayward linebacker came out of nowhere to pick him/her for the pretend slapfest. Do these students get hit? No.

[Black Jack II]

Your drills are dumb.

I did not mention any drills so I don't know what you are calling dumb. I mentioned a scientific principle called OODA. Make the adjustment or not.


Tell us about this magical hard contact, your ancient training methods to your students which provide the above stated methodology, give us some of your background?

Still waiting on that question to be answered? Come on Abel the clock is ticking?:rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

And we will never know at this rate. What DO you have? Show us.

As for me? My experience? I've only been fighting since 1982. I've only had 25 years experience in various CMA styles. We've only had 10 thousand students, including people from every style, come into our school over the years. Hint: we never point sparred.

So I guess by your definition, not much. :rolleyes:

I guess you missed it. :rolleyes:

[Golden Arms]

OODA doesnt have to have anything to do with redman suits. Its a concept, and its something alot of hard contact training already does, but if you know the concept, you can sort of organize it better and pass it along easier. Its in essence recoding your responses to various stimulus in a systematic fashion, and its a great tool. I am not here to sell anything, I dont even think I will bother posting on this thread again, unless it takes a pretty big swing for the better.

[SifuAbel]

, and its a great tool.

If you have skills. One of the tennents of this is that you think and react faster than your opponenet. This can't be sold. This can't be taught intellectually. You either ARE faster than your opponent, or not. Your reaction time and your follow through is going to be determined by how ingrained your skills are.

The tennet that if you have too many choices you will have a slower reaction time screams to me that their idea of skill is based on huge constructs of superfluous techniques instead of solid rudimetary skills that get put together abstactly as needed. I don't have to think about how to block, punch, kick, throw, grab, move, it's automatic.

[Black Jack II]

As for me? My experience? I've only been fighting since 1982. I've only had 25 years experience in various CMA styles. We've only had 10 thousand students, including people from every style, come into our school over the years. Hint: we never point sparred.

So I guess by your definition, not much.

Let's take a look at this one first. How does one know this? Where is the proof and what does this showcase at all? Which school and what website? This is a very general statement a 6th grader could make. I asked what is your background and you gave me no specifics to what I asked, except for your training start date.


If you have skills. One of the tennents of this is that you think and react faster than your opponenet. This can't be sold. This can't be taught intellectually. You either ARE faster than your opponent, or not.

1. This cant be sold- I bet your school is selling it.:rolleyes:
2. This can't be taught intellectually- Part wrong. You don't put any intellectual thought into your sparring or training. Then what is the point of you doing anything to better prepare yourself.
3. You either ARE faster than your opponent, or not- Well duh. But that depends on what we are talking about. I am talking about self defense. You seem to be talking about sparring where you have much better control of your options.


The tennet that if you have too many choices you will have a slower reaction time screams to me that their idea of skill is based on huge constructs of superfluous techniques instead of solid rudimetary skills that get put together abstactly as needed. I don't have to think about how to block, punch, kick, throw, grab, move, it's automatic.

1. The tennet that if you have too many choices you will have a slower reaction time screams to me that their idea of skill is based on huge constructs of superfluous techniques instead of solid rudimetary skills that get put together abstactly as needed. - 110 percent agreement and that is the point, you dont need a huge construct of techniques but rudimetary gross motor skills, practiced over and over again under stressor conditions. A huge construct of techniques only gets in the way of reaction time. Hick's Law states this as does common sense.

2. I don't have to think about how to block, punch, kick, throw, grab, move, it's automatic.- As does everyone on earth. Join the club. OODA is not about thinking about doing anything. Its how to break down drills to better include aspects of the unknown in a attempt for a person to gleen something more from the drill.

[lunghushan]

Its how to break down drills to better include aspects of the unknown in a attempt for a person to gleen something more from the drill.

Yeah but it's a drill. It's not supposed to be unknown. What do you think they invented sparring for?

[SifuAbel]

Oh boy,:rolleyes: like googleing me wouldn't answer all your questions about me.

[Black Jack II]

Yeah but it's a drill. It's not supposed to be unknown. What do you think they invented sparring for?

There, I will change the paragraph so it may be easier.

Its how to break down drills from a instructors point of view to better include a aspect of the unknown in a attempt for a person to gleen something more from the drill.

It's just a framework really and one that works well with creative players. People may be doing it and not calling it by its technical name but this gives those people a written framework. To me it can help people emphasize decision making and the process used to determine actions, not just the actions themselves.

Sparring is all about the unknown and skill testing. Thats why I like sparring but you can also take the essence of sparring hard and put it into creative drills to let people use there decision making in a different context for growth.

But Golden is right, this is getting very repetitive, my best advice is go find a place that works with OODA drills, a sports team or training school that uses it and do your own research instead of talking premature.

[Black Jack II]

You mean the obese guy on the cover is you?? This is the wack job conspiracy nut I am listening to??

If that is you, christ man, for the love of money put down the hotdog.

http://www.abelsmartialarts.com/

[Black Jack II]

Wait, holy ****, now I remeber you.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30392

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!

CONVERSATION OVER! LMAO!!!!

[SifuAbel]

1. This cant be sold- I bet your school is selling it.:rolleyes:
2. This can't be taught intellectually- Part wrong. You don't put any intellectual thought into your sparring or training. Then what is the point of you doing anything to better prepare yourself.
3. You either ARE faster than your opponent, or not- Well duh. But that depends on what we are talking about. I am talking about self defense. You seem to be talking about sparring where you have much better control of your options.


1. My school doesn't sell BS spin in lieu of hard training. There is a nebulous connection between your method of surprise in attack and your method of attaining rudimentary skills. It has to start somewhere . I have news for you, if you don't start out practicing how each rudimentary skill is done formally you will not be able to progress to using it abstractly. Its a progression. From known technique done robotically step by step, to known technique done with broken timing(surprise factor), to known technique done at different speeds(timing factor), to known technique done with ever increasing power AND target reach, to known technique followed by unknown, to feeling for alternate follow thoughs, to using techniques gleaned to answer fully unknown attack ( to free sparring), etc etc. All this is missing in your approach.

2. You can only allude to a body reaction intellectually. The body itself must learn how to perform the action. Without the above, playing peek a boo with the student won't amount to a hill of beans.

3. self defense against whom? An alien with giant duct tape head or an alien with red body armor, neither of which are hitting the student. All of which are impervious to your strikes. Is the student sucker punched? Tackled? All that is suggested here is to have a pretend sparring match where the student pretends he has no eyes, ears or sense of prescence at all. That he's busy at the supermarket while being broadsided by the wayward linebacker. Its ready, set , go, slapfest.

So in hard sparring you know what your opponenet is going to do? No. You have to confront, act and react to someone who is truely hitting you. Adrenal dump, plenty.

[SifuAbel]

You mean the obese guy on the cover is you?? This is the wack job conspiracy nut I am listening to??

If that is you, christ man, for the love of money put down the hotdog.

http://www.abelsmartialarts.com/


Uhhhh No........ Hint: Abel isn't my first name, Dumb ass.

[SifuAbel]

Please, using, or being affiliated to, a numbskull website that prides itself on changing people's posts and making giant crusades that lead nowhere and make no sense because they get their panties in a twist looks worse for you than for me.

You could at least post a thread where half the people aren't defending me. LOL!!!

BTW, is there video of YOU at a throwdown? ROFL!!!

[lunghushan]

Please, using, or being affiliated to, a numbskull website that prides itself on changing people's posts and making giant crusades that lead nowhere and make no sense because they get their panties in a twist looks worse for you than for me.

You mean that even with all the race war and cap your ass stuff, Sifu Abel isn't some big huge black guy that does monkey style and will mess us all up?

That he's actually a fat white guy who spends all his time posting on the Internet?

**** ... Gene is right again, we should not pierce the veil of anonymity. You've totally ruined it for me now.

[SifuAbel]

As oppposed to some anonymous germophobe wanker that doesn't spar for fear of contracting lepresy? Yeah stay anonymous, we already think your persona is pathetic enough. adding face to the name is just overkill.

Do i look fat in this picture?

http://politiquote.com/henry/rudy6.jpg :rolleyes:

are there pictures of neal we can poke fun at? anybody?

[lunghushan]

As oppposed to some anonymous germophobe wanker that doesn't spar for fear of contracting lepresy? Yeah stay anonymous, we already think your persona is pathetic enough. adding face to the name is just overkill.

Do i look fat in this picture?

http://politiquote.com/henry/rudy6.jpg :rolleyes:

Nobody's got pics of me. And yes, you do look a little overweight. Like me. Except your cheeks are puffier.

**** ... why'd Black Jack II have to post that link... why did I have to follow it? It was so much more fun that you were a big huge black monkey kung fu guy that would mess us all up.

[SifuAbel]

My cheecks will always be puffy. It the spanish genes.

I suspect you are more than "a little" overweight. :rolleyes:

"big black"?!?!? Hey, don't pore your **** erotic fantasies here.

[SifuAbel]

Let's take a look at this one first. How does one know this? Where is the proof and what does this showcase at all? Which school and what website? This is a very general statement a 6th grader could make. I asked what is your background and you gave me no specifics to what I asked, except for your training start date.


Pft and double pft,you posted this as your experience.

Green Dragon Fighting Society- Yes (Ill)
Eriks Boxing Club- Yes (Ill)
Filipino systems under Guro Gavin Griggs-moderate (Il)
Mels House of Thunder- Yes (San Diego)
JKD Concepts and Core Boxing-Yes (San Diego)
Silat Seni Gayong- moderate(Il)

From when to when? How long? A day? What did you acheive? Can you prove it? Get off your spiked heels, Ms. Missy Teflon.

[lunghushan]

My cheecks will always be puffy. It the spanish genes.

I suspect you are more than "a little" overweight. :rolleyes:

"big black"?!?!? Hey, don't pore your **** erotic fantasies here.

Excuses, excuses. Puffy cheeks and chin ... you're overweight. Fat on top of muscle.

[SifuAbel]

Uh............. so??????????

Its kind of a non iissue. I'll never be anorexic. :rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

As oppposed to some anonymous germophobe wanker that doesn't spar for fear of contracting lepresy

That is funny. Got to give credit where credit is due.

Second, since this thread is way out in left field now and its time to move on.


All this is missing in your approach

God, I never said that was my sole approach at any point. I just said it was a approach and that OODA is a really good tool when addressed correctly. You know Abel, if you were to stop adding thought-prints where people never really stated them it would help in your own debates.

Third,

You look a bit like ManCow Muller.

www.mancow.com

[unkokusai]

Please, using, or being affiliated to, a numbskull website that prides itself on changing people's posts and making giant crusades that lead nowhere and make no sense because they get their panties in a twist looks worse for you than for me.!!!



Such anger. I thought you fat guys were supposed to be jolly.

[David Jamieson]

I gotta say that the bullet head guy training is utterly useless and will teach you less about defending yourself than say, eating a softboiled egg with toast.

as for resorting to calling someone names? wtf? have i been transported through time to the playground in kindergarten. come on guys, take it easy. lol

[Knifefighter]

Scenario based training does have one valuable application for applying the OODA loop in that it allows one to already have decided what he is going to do in a variety of situations at the very beginning of a confrontation. If one knows he is going to throw a hard punch and immediately tie the guy up as soon as he brings his hand down to possibly access a weapon, he is way ahead on the loop.

Same thing if you already know what you are going to when someone asks you where you are from, approaches you with a verbal barrage, or any variety of "pre-fight" set ups.

If you have done the situational drills (and sparred them), you will be faster in the observation and orientation phases and lighting fast in the decision because that has been made beforehand... and all that allows one to act much faster.

[David Jamieson]

situational training has one huge and glaring problem.

It is assumptive.

which in turn renders it as moot as over compliance or continuing over compliance in intermediate to advanced levels of training.

safety is cool and all and gear is a good idea, but free flow is where one learns wtf it is that they need to brush up oin their shakespeare with.

competitive fighting is ok too as far as Im concerned, but even there, there is an element of safety in the mind that comes from knowing you are in an environment were some assumptions can be made. IE: no one is gonna pull a weapon, you will only fight the guy that's on your card, you are both bound by rules, the tap is respected and so on.

in reality, you either will or will not be able to come out unscathed. Training scenarios has very minimal usage in that context. More free flow and incorporating suprise and even, if agreed upon using pain as a teacher is more valid in my opinion.

[Knifefighter]

situational training has one huge and glaring problem.

It is assumptive.
Yeah, but it also gives you the chance to train to recognize movements and pre-decide what your reaction will be (i.e. what is your decision if he reaches towards his pocket vs. reaching towards you; what is your decision if his hands are up vs. down; what, if any, is the point where you will make a pre-emtive strike; which situations have you decided to grapple vs. strike; etc)

[Yao Sing]

What happened over the years with most arts is that society became more civilized and people stopped fighting on a regular basis. The only reason there's a need for 'live training' and 'stress testing' is because modern day fighters are not surrounded by physical violence like the fighters of old.

Their stress testing was done in real life or death situations and was probably more a part of life than it is today. Since it was a gradual change over the years most didn't notice the change. With that element missing today it's been replaced during training with what some consider new concepts.

This OODA loop is just a way to describe and understand a concept that came natural to guys that had to fight for real on a regular basis whether they could verbalize it or not.

This hasn't been lost completely as I've mentioned on another thread some of the drills I was exposed to earlier in my training. Drills like one guy in the middle of a circle not knowing when, where or what type of attack will come. Another was a free-for-all where 5 or 6 guys continually attack until exhaustion.

So with the real fighting element missing in modern life what is everyone using to replace this aspect of martial arts?

[SifuAbel]

Yeah, but it also gives you the chance to train to recognize movements and pre-decide what your reaction will be (i.e. what is your decision if he reaches towards his pocket vs. reaching towards you; what is your decision if his hands are up vs. down; what, if any, is the point where you will make a pre-emtive strike; which situations have you decided to grapple vs. strike; etc)


This is an example of being afraid of your own shadow.

Reaching toward you in what way? Handsake? Hug from a stranger? Reaching to your pocket is a way different body motion. And thats the way I see it. Its a body motion. I respond to body motion. I don't attach assumptions that takes too much time and distraction. If it is an attack it will read as such. It just plain common sense not to let your guard down with a total stanger and surrender your proximity.

This stuff is for the sheltered. :rolleyes: