More youtube of me to be shot at lol!

[tjwingchun]

Just some links to more youtube links covering 3 forms, dummy in brief and Siu Lim Tao in some detail. Simply looking for views and criticism. Something I put together a few years ago and though small bits have changed slightly, mainly still my thoughts.

Quality not the best but it is from camera to video to disc to PC and then reduced to fit for youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLLy_ZGinHM for Siu Lim Tao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nusDpchP_zw for Chum Kiu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fb0Z4X_8Uk Biu Gee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYNSdypm5NY Dummy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDt2oCpOZcQ Stance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s463lV5kGKE 1st third SLT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_oPrxuhW60 2nd third SLT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HbV2uMyUwA last third SLT

[leung jam]

Just some links to more youtube links covering 3 forms, dummy in brief and Siu Lim Tao in some detail. Simply looking for views and criticism. Something I put together a few years ago and though small bits have changed slightly, mainly still my thoughts.

Quality not the best but it is from camera to video to disc to PC and then reduced to fit for youtube!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nusDpchP_zw for Chum Kiu



HI there, just had a quick look at your ck form havent checked other links yet but a couple of things i noticed which seem different to the wc i learn -

1)When you do the 3 palms- your arm which is retracting into wu sau appears to be too low to be of any use as a secondary line of defence.

2)When you kick you the kick doesnt go straight to (imaginary) target you seem to camber it, try kicking a bag or wall like that and you will bounce backwards!

3)The tan saus to low bong sau's stepping your stance appears to get too narrow ie) not shoulder width/slightly more than shoulder width.

Hope this helps, dont take it wrong way, for all i know these points may not be a problem in your wc family.

peace ,
LJam

[tjwingchun]

HI there, just had a quick look at your ck form havent checked other links yet but a couple of things i noticed which seem different to the wc i learn -

1)When you do the 3 palms- your arm which is retracting into wu sau appears to be too low to be of any use as a secondary line of defence.

Thanks for taking the time to have a look.

I always use body reference points so that a student can correct themselves, with the Wu Sau I use the solar plexus as the point and a 'one fist distance' infront of it as the definitive placement in the form, application is another thing where it is level with the elbow of the Man Sau.


2)When you kick you the kick doesnt go straight to (imaginary) target you seem to camber it, try kicking a bag or wall like that and you will bounce backwards!

The second kick is a driving kick for when you are moving into an opponent and so have forward energy to prevent being effected by the reactant energy, the first 'lifting kick' from the second section can be applied when stationary without any chambering. Both use a stamping energy but the difference is in when they are relevant.


3)The tan saus to low bong sau's stepping your stance appears to get too narrow ie) not shoulder width/slightly more than shoulder width.

In this section I concentrate on getting the student to understand the 'driving' twitch energy off the back leg, throughout Chum Kiu I maintain stances to a very precise position that are exaggerated and abstract as an extention of the basic stance that I have detailed on youtube, heels on the same line with the feet parallel, so that they teach new ways of being AWARE of how the legs can be used as well as developing strength.


Hope this helps, dont take it wrong way, for all i know these points may not be a problem in your wc family.

peace ,
LJam

The whole idea of 'TJ Wing Chun' is that it is MY way of explaining how I understand the forms, so that I can get others to understand THEMSELVES how THEY can use their bodies, it is very much 'MY family way' and differs from the teaching methods of my Sifu and Sigung, though the sequence and movements are not that different, what I have endeavoured to do over the years is to have a precise reason for the practice of EVERY movement of ALL the forms, not applications but understanding various directional energies that can be created by the different parts of the body, in isolation and in combinations.

Once more thanks for taking the time it is appreciated, I expect to get a lot more flak, though not necessarily from this forum but others that I go into, but my view is that if I cannot defend MY methods then I should not be teaching them.

[Liddel]

Hey mate,
I too have noticed some differences in your form to the VT i learn, ill only comment on the things i see as being similar because your differences are just your way - could be we have a differnt purpose with those actions......

First i notice when opening the form, your horse is the same as the YGKYM in SLT. IMHO it should be wider apart, you look high and therefore not 'AS' stable as you could be with a slightly lower horse. This also has an effect on the horse power you can add to your actions.

Secondly - its a bit robot like, it should be more natural and flowing IMO.

Finally, the Dai Bong's in the third section are totally devoid of Yu Ma Lik. You put out the Dai Bong then after applying the action, you step foward.
IMO this is too late. In other words there is a moment where the bong is not supported.

Now if you were to use this against a comming action, when your Bong Connected with the attack it would be without body/horse force at the point of contact, which is IMO the most important time for any action to have body support.

Just for comparison, i step my front foot foward a half pace and as i apply my double Dai Bong i step up with the back foot adding support and force in the hands. The work together. Now combined with the turning/tourqe like action of the Bongs forearm, you can generate much more power to disolve any action you connect with.



1)When you do the 3 palms- your arm which is retracting into wu sau appears to be too low to be of any use as a secondary line of defence.


I personally have my Wu Sao lower at this point also.
IMHO there are two ways to look at this LJ -

One - When retracting an action at a lower level while putting an attack out you cover the lower gate with the retrieting elbow/forearm similar to the Chain Punch.
Height is really only relevant to the height of the opponent your pretending to face anyway.

Two - (which is the idea supporting my action) The effect of Sip Sao.
My wusau is not static, it does not stay in the same position as i hold it when an action comes.
Instead as its lower on my center, for actions aimed at the sternum or higher, it has to rise giving it dynamic (moving) energy from arm and horse. Conversly it can travel downwards utilising gravity for lower actions perhaps turning to Gum for front kicks or Guarn for hooks to the body etc....

This action for me comes from the first dummy action... i hold out my Wu Sao (Bi Jong) and when the punch comes (in my head cause the dummy is just wood) i raise my Wu to intercept and gain the touch ( Sip Sao ) now from there the action turns to the grappling hand and neck pull......etc etc... you know the rest.

Not saying anyone is right or wrong the only important thing with having differences is having a reason why you do it the way you do and what that adds to the action. :D

Why do you have it higher, what does it add to your Wusao that having it lower would not ? :rolleyes:

[leung jam]

Hi liddel just a quick reply ,



I personally have my Wu Sao lower at this point also.
IMHO there are two ways to look at this LJ -

One - When retracting an action at a lower level while putting an attack out you cover the lower gate with the retrieting elbow/forearm similar to the Chain Punch.
Height is really only relevant to the height of the opponent your pretending to face anyway.

Two - (which is the idea supporting my action) The effect of Sip Sao.
My wusau is not static, it does not stay in the same position as i hold it when an action comes.
Instead as its lower on my center, for actions aimed at the sternum or higher, it has to rise giving it dynamic (moving) energy from arm and horse. Conversly it can travel downwards utilising gravity for lower actions perhaps turning to Gum for front kicks or Guarn for hooks to the body etc....


I prefer reason '2' and altho i can see your point(s) i would personally still rather take a punch to the body than a punch to the head, by having wu sau lower than i need i would not be using the most efficient path to divert attack, ie straight. In snt, does your wu sau drop as you retract in 1st section? or does it remain at same level, does fook rise as it goes forward or stay level? , surely snt is still our guide mobile or static? -- and undoubtably the reason for family differences in all other forms.



This action for me comes from the first dummy action... i hold out my Wu Sao (Bi Jong) and when the punch comes (in my head cause the dummy is just wood) i raise my Wu to intercept and gain the touch ( Sip Sao ) now from there the action turns to the grappling hand and neck pull......etc etc... you know the rest.

Not saying anyone is right or wrong the only important thing with having differences is having a reason why you do it the way you do and what that adds to the action. :D

Why do you have it higher, what does it add to your Wusao that having it lower would not ? :rolleyes:

Above is same point made b4, i begin with tan for dummy- reason why same as previous reason, the idea of bridging with wu ,feeling direction of force etc then changing to most efficient shape to offset/dispel that force is a nice idea and can work nicely in chi sau but in sparring/no initial contact position
its too much of a gamble for me :) anyway i totally agree with you that if the student can understand what their doing and why and these things conform with the key principles of wc then thats all that matters ..

lj

[tjwingchun]

First i notice when opening the form, your horse is the same as the YGKYM in SLT. IMHO it should be wider apart, you look high and therefore not 'AS' stable as you could be with a slightly lower horse. This also has an effect on the horse power you can add to your actions.

I use a precise position of heel width to define my stance for both SLT and CK, that is the width of the shoulders to the inside of the heels of the stance, it relates to the position of the centre on gravity and the ability to push off the heel, in Biu Gee the stance is more relaxed and natural.

Stances in my view are simply there to understand how you can use the legs and to become aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the structures that you form when using energy from the point of contact to the floor.

How I apply knowledge of the legs is different from the strict nature of the developing understanding of the legs, to be dynamic with the legs you first have to become aware of how they operate.


Secondly - its a bit robot like, it should be more natural and flowing IMO.

I agree, but what I try to do is de-personalise the forms, to make them more mechanical so that any individual can see exact positions and movements from one technique to another, I leave it to the student to personalise the forms for themselves.

My intention is to create a skeleton of structure and function that each individual adds their own flesh. I see the forms as having two main purposes, first as a catalogue of movements to help a student remember them all and how the energies can be applied (not strictly from the form as if you try to apply techniques as they appear in the form they do not work!) and secondly so that the teacher can observe and see that the student has understood what they have been taught.


Finally, the Dai Bong's in the third section are totally devoid of Yu Ma Lik. You put out the Dai Bong then after applying the action, you step foward.
IMO this is too late. In other words there is a moment where the bong is not supported.

I see the most important energy from this section as understanding the straight driving twitch energy of the leg which I relate to the Biu Ma, rather than the turning twitch energy, Huen Ma, of the first section, by separating the arms from the legs the student can become aware of this muscle action and practice its use rather than remain 'hand/arm orientated', once learned it then links to becomes a natural part of every technique.


Now if you were to use this against a comming action, when your Bong Connected with the attack it would be without body/horse force at the point of contact, which is IMO the most important time for any action to have body support.

Just for comparison, i step my front foot foward a half pace and as i apply my double Dai Bong i step up with the back foot adding support and force in the hands. The work together. Now combined with the turning/tourqe like action of the Bongs forearm, you can generate much more power to disolve any action you connect with.


When talking application rather than form I again agree with you but what I try to achieve in the forms is the isolation of the various muscle groups that generate energy, understand their use and develop awareness of them individually and learn via chi sau and application how they come together through experience in contact with an opponent.

I understand what you are saying as well as appreciate the comments, I take on board your views, this video (chopped for youtube) was done simply for my students some years ago, when I get around to producing 'professional' footage I will attempt to address many more issues while keeping it as staightforward as possible.

[k gledhill]

Questions...? Other than it looks similar to everyone but for personal variation....

1/2] why do you X your arms in the begining of each form ? thinking ?

1] What are you trying to develop doing SLT ? what is your thinking ?

2] Vusao , where is it placed ? wrist on c-line or hand? why ?

3] Why are your Bongsao's done low together in Chum kil ?

4] Dummy , what is the thinking ?

5] When you fight using the concepts, what guides you tacticaly ?

6] have you done the weapons or had them explained ?



:D

[couch]

I use a precise position of heel width to define my stance for both SLT and CK, that is the width of the shoulders to the inside of the heels of the stance, it relates to the position of the centre on gravity and the ability to push off the heel, in Biu Gee the stance is more relaxed and natural.

Stances in my view are simply there to understand how you can use the legs and to become aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the structures that you form when using energy from the point of contact to the floor.

How I apply knowledge of the legs is different from the strict nature of the developing understanding of the legs, to be dynamic with the legs you first have to become aware of how they operate.



I agree with Liddel here. I know that the width you feel is right, however - due to your tall stature - I think that possibly slightly wider might benefit the balance.

Even moreso would be you sinking into your stance. Sink low until there is a tennis-ball width between your knees...don't squeeze them together, but really sit down.

That's all I would suggest about the stance.

Also...in your CK and BJ, it seems that when your arm is to your side that your hand leads the motion back to the centre instead of your elbow. Can you please explain why?

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[tjwingchun]

k gledhill and couch, I will reply later in detail to the questions but it may be a while as I am moving to Majorca and flying Monday morning and still loads of packing to do rather than be infront of the computer, ;)

So depending on getting either the PC online asap out there or going to a internet cafe I will be restricted in the short term replying.

[anerlich]

My lineage's forms are way different in many ways. Very hard to comment, but ...

Dude, get a friggin' HAIRCUT!

[Matrix]

Dude, get a friggin' HAIRCUT!This from a man who quotes Marilyn Manson. :rolleyes:

[Liddel]

Hi liddel just a quick reply ,
I prefer reason '2' and altho i can see your point(s) i would personally still rather take a punch to the body than a punch to the head

If given the choice, im with you. But Just to clarify, I do not let any action given below my WuSau just simply hit me with no reaction.



, by having wu sau lower than i need i would not be using the most efficient path to divert attack, ie straight.

Two things come to mind that i must mention ok.
1) a vertical line ( Traveling DOWN or UP) is still STRAIGHT right.
So we have to disagree on that point because i still think its efficient, but perhaps you are more efficent in terms of distance taken however minute IMO. Which then brings me to my next point...

2) I sacrifice your more efficent line, for having a virtical slide line on My Wu as a result of traveling slightly up and or down (situation dependent).

Bong Tan Jut Jum Guarn - All these actions create certain angles which when energy is applied to these angles (an attack) the energy is coerced by gravity to travel away from your center.(other forces like my horse and muscles put aside)
The action Sip Sau (having Wu rise) generates this same effect creating a slide line of the energy down your forearm and away from your body - which subsequently IME makes a easier situation to then turn that Wu into another action like Tan or Bong.

So in my mind yes i have sacrificed the MOST efficent path (by inches), but in doing so i have added worth... or a dynamic structure to the action.



In snt, does your wu sau drop as you retract in 1st section?or does it remain at same level

Yes it reamins horizontal, at the same level...



does fook rise as it goes forward or stay level?
Again Level, but my Wu as previously stated is lower than yours...



Surely snt is still our guide mobile or static? lj

Yes it is a guide.
For me its a guide for my body to become familiar with how to preform/ hold actions, and the energies involved inside my body.....
But when outside forces are introduced (an opponent) and your horse (because SLT is devoid of stepping and turning) the actions from SLT at least for ME, take on attributes not learnt in SLT...

I hope my pov gets across ive been up all night with friends and im trying stay awake till 4 pm to watch UFC 67, go Cro Cop and Rampage, knockout city !!!

[Mr Punch]

2)When you kick you the kick doesnt go straight to (imaginary) target you seem to camber it, try kicking a bag or wall like that and you will bounce backwards!I've trained with a lot of karate-ka, and seen a lot who can kick through you with a chambered kick like a mule and they never go bouncing backwards. Maybe you only have experience of wing chun?

I prefer a straight wing chun kick, but we do have 'chambered' ones too (eg. from the bong gerk position - you know, turn your knee over and inside into the centre line to control someone's kicking leg or try a knee strike before you kick out?).

I'll get back to you TJ on your vids... (hang on, didn't I say that on some other thread...? :o ), but they seem OK to me so far (though of course a little different to my line).

[leung jam]

I've trained with a lot of karate-ka, and seen a lot who can kick through you with a chambered kick like a mule and they never go bouncing backwards. Maybe you only have experience of wing chun?


Hi mr punch, well actually i did train a few other arts before vt but only ever stayed longterm with vt.
What we are talking about though is the vt forms,i stand by my point that in vt stance cambering kick will loose you power, i agree tho that some styles which use other stances can land powerful kicks etc etc but whats that got to do with vt forms & structure?



I prefer a straight wing chun kick, but we do have 'chambered' ones too (eg. from the bong gerk position - you know, turn your knee over and inside into the centre line to control someone's kicking leg or try a knee strike before you kick out?).

I'll get back to you TJ on your vids... (hang on, didn't I say that on some other thread...? :o ), but they seem OK to me so far (though of course a little different to my line).

Yep i know what you mean Mp think most branches have kicking from bong gerk/yap gerk- (sometimes called facade kick) positions and of course the knee stamps etc, but when do you use these kicks not when advancing but when you in contact already and ideally are using opponent for balance.
Surely what the kicks (save last turning/side kick of ck) are teaching us in chum kui is advancing into opponent thus we are stepping, hence why imho the heel kick is more appropiate to this form, perhaps you have other ideas ?
Reguards,
LJ

[Mr Punch]

What we are talking about though is the vt forms,i stand by my point that in vt stance cambering kick will loose you power, i agree tho that some styles which use other stances can land powerful kicks etc etc but whats that got to do with vt forms & structure?Fair enough. The bit I quoted was a criticism of chambered kicking's effectiveness rather than a reference to its place in the form though.

Now you're saying that other MAs have chambered kicking and it's effective, but I still think that with some WC stances the WC 'chambered' kick can be so too, and I have seen some lines include it in the forms, as TJ's obviously does.


Yep i know what you mean Mp think most branches have kicking from bong gerk/yap gerk- (sometimes called facade kick) positions and of course the knee stamps etc, but when do you use these kicks not when advancing but when you in contact already and ideally are using opponent for balance.Yeah, that's one use, but I've successfully used a WC chambered stamping front kick like Thai boxers use teeps to kick somebody out of the standard range or to close range before too. I don't think it's ideal but it can be done easily enough within the framework of the WC I've learnt.


Surely what the kicks (save last turning/side kick of ck) are teaching us in chum kui is advancing into opponent thus we are stepping, hence why imho the heel kick is more appropiate to this form, perhaps you have other ideas ?
Reguards,
LJI like the heel kick there too, and my line uses it. My sifu did teach us a chambered stamping front kick there too as an alternative though, and we practised that way too, but mostly by a long way the heel kick. The chambered stamping one leaves your front leg more vulnerable to the sweep, but if you practice it there's no reason why it should be telegraphed. And as you can see, as with kyokushin and Thai, there's little stopping a good, well-placed, well-timed one, and the momentum from the stamp brings a lot of power into your next combo.

[Liddel]

Guys i understand the idea of chambering kicks and poeples different P'sOV on them. However i dont understand how you see it present in TJ's CK.

The font kick in my CK is chambered with reason.
I raise my leg which is bent at the knee and as the knee becomes straight my ankle changes its angle promoting the heel out as the touch point (toes at 45 not 90) through which my kicks force is exherted.
The power is mostly generated from the joints of my body... why....
Because in CK im static, facing in one direction while doing the kick, so my joints ( knee, ankle and hip) are isolated from my turning horse or step.

In a fight of course i can do what i want - stepping and turning as well as pulling or pushing the opponent while executing my kick means my foot can travel from where it is to the target in a straighter line having less need to be chambered.

In TJ's form he raises the leg straight up (vertically) from its floor position at least from what i can see. In a realistic confrontation it "LOOKS" more akin to a front kick to the groin (force coming from up to down) rather than a front kick thrusting foward ?
This is mainly due to fact his knee remains bent at the same angle as he raises his leg.

So maybe our use for this kick is different -

Perhaps im missing something but i didnt think it was chambered at all, could you explain a little more your POV ?

[Matrix]

Guys i understand the idea of chambering kicks and poeples different P'sOV on them. However i dont understand how you see it present in TJ's CK.Not to butt into the conversation, but I noticed 2 different kicks in the form. The kick at 1:21 and 1:31 are not chambered, the kicks at 1:43 and 1:53 are.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

[leung jam]

Hi again Mr punch,


Fair enough. The bit I quoted was a criticism of chambered kicking's effectiveness rather than a reference to its place in the form though.

Now you're saying that other MAs have chambered kicking and it's effective, but I still think that with some WC stances the WC 'chambered' kick can be so too, and I have seen some lines include it in the forms, as TJ's obviously does.

Yep i agree the chambered kick can be used ,as i mentioned before, but personally i would only use it when usin opponent for balance, for example
booting opponent from inside/indoor whilst holding their arms.



Yeah, that's one use, but I've successfully used a WC chambered stamping front kick like Thai boxers use teeps to kick somebody out of the standard range or to close range before too. I don't think it's ideal but it can be done easily enough within the framework of the WC I've learnt.


Thats cool, im not doubting anyone's ability to use chambered kicks or anything else that works when fightin, but this thread was originally discussing the wc forms.
Surely the forms teach us the 'framework' as u mention and we then experiment with these ideas +make wc are own. I may have a blinding back fist which has served me well but does that mean i should add it to snt?
perhaps bui gee would be more appropiate being the apparent open ended form .
What im saying is i have watched many wc people deviate from snt/ck shapes &structure when sparring,throw in something wild and it works, but usually being they are wc people the safest bet is to return to your framewrk what you are familiar with soon as.



I like the heel kick there too, and my line uses it. My sifu did teach us a chambered stamping front kick there too as an alternative though, and we practised that way too, but mostly by a long way the heel kick. The chambered stamping one leaves your front leg more vulnerable to the sweep, but if you practice it there's no reason why it should be telegraphed. And as you can see, as with kyokushin and Thai, there's little stopping a good, well-placed, well-timed one, and the momentum from the stamp brings a lot of power into your next combo.

Yep agree thai & some karate have very powerful attacks and many wc'ers could learn a thing or two by looking at how thai boxers deliver elbows.
I think were on a similar wavelength here mr punch and you sound as if you been training for a while so its easy to forget how beginners have to learn and how the forms serve them, we know ultimate goal is to be free of any restrictions :)

reguards,
LJam

[nschmelzer]

It is the low kicks of wing chun that I value the most. They distract, they punish, they stop, they break structure, they confuse... they come down the center and use the heel as the striking point. They are hard to see, they are fast... they do not require rotation of the hip, and permit protection of the center and full utilization of the arms. For whatever it is worth, here is an example of how I like to use them (ignore the hands):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQtKklTPt9U

I use these kicks frequently in sparring and competition (to the extent permitted).

[Tom Kagan]

I give you big Kudos for posting these and opening yourself up to critique, ridicule, and dumb comments from anonymous morons like myself. Of course, all comments should always be taken with a grain of salt. However, your reactions to the peanut gallery are encouraging in that it gives me the impression you don't have much vanity vested in these videos. (I hope you don't get a swelled head based upon a perceived *lack* of criticism in any given area, either. :) )


To a certain extent, I understand a video of SNT as just being a a walk through. It would be unreasonable to post a 20 to 40 minute video of this form being done as it should be. No one wants to watch you determine how much dust can collect on your body during that time frame. :) And, frankly, there isn't a tremendous amount of substantial material in SNT for another person to examine and critique as to a practitioner's mechanics, anyway - at least not without getting to know that person firsthand, IMO.

However, the CK, BJ and MYJ: Why did you mail those in? There are enough "sparks" in the videos you posted for me to give you the benefit of the doubt on your mechanics. But, you probably know how to do these forms A LOT better, IMO. These videos aren't substantial enough, otherwise. Beyond just looking at the stylistic variation of the sequencing of your forms to spot the flairs which different teachers put in as tweaks and signatures, I'm not sure what your reasoning is for posting these *specific* examples of these forms.


Normally, I don't go through videos like these and pick them apart. There is one point in the BJ video I would like to comment on though. IMO, you did manage to catch this on the video: I won't get into specifics, but I will suggest if you might want to put a more conscious thought into the retreating arm - especially on your QuaiJan (the downward cutting elbow). I feel it is the retreating arm which holds the key to recovery from these motions. While you don't need to keep your back "ramrod" straight to maintain body unity, you do seem to lose it at this point in the video. I feel it is because you are forgetting to use the interrelation of the arms to your advantage while trying to put some power into those swings, thus overcompensating.

(My $2.22, adjusted for inflation. Take it for what it is. ;) )


P.S.: Since it is your lineage, it is curious why you don't follow Ip Chun's sequencing in CK - not that it's particularly important. Perhaps it might be an interesting diversion in discussion, though.