Bajiquan & Muay Thai

[CrazyDan]

A couple days ago I saw on another thread were someone said something like "Bajiquan combined with Muay Thai conditioning would be the PERFECT kung fu style, and would be able to stand up to Muay Thai if not defeat it" I dont know a whole lot about either style really, anyone care to comment on Baji vs Muay Thai?

[Zhin]

I have a good friend who learned muay thai in Thailand. He later took up western boxing to improve his punches.

He's currently doing bajiquan, but he does not believe in mixing styles, as such. He's practicing baji because he likes the infighting aspects of it. He's pretty much abandoned muay thai technique. He feels that baji is a complete art, and there's no need to layer.

I've seen him in a fight recently, and he was strict baji, didn't revert at all.

[RAF]

We teach both baji and pigua (close fighting and long range fighting). But please be advised, there is no magic to the systems. Baji training is very systematic and you spend hours upon hours simply punching and you can do two man moving punching (B side lets A hit the shoulder). Lots of people simply get bored doing this. Later, when you add the da qiang (simple punching exercises) it adds even more to the punches. You spend a lot of time learning to use the body. Besides punching we use also a lot of Kao (lean) shoulder strikes. In addition to this, you have to have a strong root so we hold stances in the xiao baji form. It really isn't fun and it seems like an eternity before you feel something.

If you take up baji, try not to be too disappointed. Its a good 3 years of consistent training before something blossoms.

I always recommend to students who desire to learn to fight quickly that they take up praying mantis. Although we do holding stances in praying mantis, the two man fighting is quick and applications are very clear. Lots of 45 degree steps and quick puncing to eyes, side of head, throat, groin etc.. Lots of kicking too and we use some of the 18 luohan qigong for conditioning.
(I no longer do mantis).

Muay Thai fighters are really, really tough. I saw one young skinny guy go up against a russian fighter (from NY) who had knocked out a couple of guys in the previous matches. The Russian won but couldn't knock out the muay thai fighter and the muay thai fighter gave the russian a real run for his money. However, after the match, the muay thai fighter could barely walk (not because of the russian) because he seemed to overuse the knee and elbow strikes. One of our students went on to train with the muay thai fighter's group and said it was brutal conditioning but worked well.

[lloyd]

I have seen an article with photos about muai thai vs. everything else. There are several photos of taiji and karate stylists against muai thai fighters.
http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index.html
The fact that these CMA guys never won and most of them got wasted, doesn't mean Chinese MA can't be compared with muai thai.

[Kumkuat]

I'm sure Hong Kong holds China's finest taiji players.

[Xebsball]

That guy on the site seems to have some problem. He trains Baji and says Muay Thai is the ultimate bla bla bla bla.
Why dont he just train Muay Thai then?

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[baji-fist]

Like what RAF mentioned earlier, it takes at least 3 consistent years to acquire the fa jing in Bajiquan. It is a very good in-fighting system, but I don'think mixing styles is a good thing. Muy Thai is a very good combat MA, but the flavor of Muy Thai and Baji are different. I believe if a person spends sufficient time on one style, then he can acquire the necessary power for fighting. Our grandmaster, GM Liu Yun Qiao, once said, "Gathering styles is like gathering twigs, no matter how many twigs you have, it will never form a tree." Spend the time on one art and learn everything about it. Instead of wasting time gathering systems.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Stranger]

Aren't there quite a few styles taught within the Wu-Tan organization (longfist, preying mantis, baji, piqua, Hebei hsing-i, Yin pakua, Chen taiji, etc.)?

I don't understand the logical connection between the statement that one should learn one style and then structure a curriculum wherein students are encouraged to explore several. I am not flaming or suggesting there is "no logic", it is just not apparent to me (an unknowing beginner). I have nothing but deep respect for all of the Wu-Tan people I have communicated with, so this question is in no way a knock on this system, its instructor, its students, its founder, etc.

Just a sincere question from an admirer of your lineage.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[baji-fist]

Stranger,

I can respect your question and it is not the first time I encountered a question like that. So no hard feelings here. In Wu-Tan, there are many styles that are taught. Actually, the goal of Wu-Tan is to promote all Chinese Martial Arts. The meaning of Wu-Tan is "Martial Alter." Although there are many styles taught within the Wu-Tan lineage, we usually "major" in one or at the most 3 styles. Everybody has their specialties that they can pick from.

Then again, those who are accepted as disciple learn Bajiquan/Piquazhang since this is our trademark style. Most students who come to us typically in the long run wants to learn the Bajiquan. Also the reason why we have so many styles in our system is to preserve these treasures. But we do encourage students to pick a style to focus on rather than learn everything Wu-Tan has to offer.

I myself concentrate primarily on Bajiquan and Seven Star Mantis. I also like Chen Stylke Taiji since the fa jing is much like that of Bajiquan. Hope this explanation makes things clear. If you would like to know more about Wu-Tan RAF or Count are the perfect to ask.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Stranger]

Thanks for the quick response. I communicate with Count via email at times and always enjoy the info he shares with me. I guess my confusion was stemming from one of the Wu-Tan websites, I believe it was a NJ based school, wherein the curriculum options are listed for the students. It seemed like there were many styles to learn if one wanted, but now that you have made it clear that typically a student will only focus on one or a few, things are clearer.

Wu-Tan is held in the highest regard by me from what I understand about CMA. Their efforts in systematically preserving and passing on quality traditional CMA of legit lineage should be applauded by the entire CMA community.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Stranger]

I just realized who your sifu is. That's funny because I have held onto the July 2001 IKF for the sole reason of his article on Baji.

:)

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[RAF]

GM Liu also had another saying: "Styles of Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all sons of the same mother."

GM Liu learned many martial arts at a very young age. Tai Zu Quan and Mi Zong were taught to him before he met Lu Su Wen, Master of Liu He spear and baji/pi gua. Again, he studied 10 solid years with Lu Su Wen before he even did another style. Li Su Wen was boarded at his household so it is very difficult to compare the training of yesterday with that of today. I do not know anyone who has trained like that. He later went on to learn and master Liu He tanglang quang and Yin Fu style bagua but his foundation was incredible. He was also well versed in understanding Chen's taiji and he had some close relationship with a zhaobao master during the 1940s but he never discussed (or told my teacher) the specific nature of that relationship. He sent most of his disciples to Du Ye Ze, who learned from Chen Fake's father, to learn the old style of Chen's taiji. His Yang's taiji, sword, dao, and push hands came from his senior kungfu brother Warlord Zhang Xiang Wu.

Most of his praying mantis was taught to his disciples by Master Su Yu Chang who served more or less as a screen. Either way you couldn't loose. Long fist, miao dao, and san cai jian came from Adam Hsu who learned for Han Ching Tang.


For Xing Yi he sent my teacher to someone who was staying at the Wu Tang Center and from him he learned Xing Yi forms, training, and Xing Yi da qiang.

GM Liu did not believe in mixing southern and northern systems, although may do and seem to do it successfully.

IMHO, some basic jings exist in all norhtern martial systems and the systems vary in the way you train to develop them and in the way you deliver them.

[count]

For crazydan, If you want to know how Baji fares against Muhy Thai, check this out. (I love to post this again :))
http://privacyplease.net/images/kfmt.jpg

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


http://kabooom.com/af.gif

[baji-fist]

Stranger,

I am glad that you have read our article. I am Paolo, the co-author of the article. Also I am the one getting pounded on by sifu Wong...hehehehehe! I also recommend reading the two part article that RAF wrote in Journal of Asian Martial Arts. It is a very good article and covers a lot on the basic training for both Baji and Piqua. I was also wondering if you wanted to exchange emails? Please feel free to email me anytime.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[RAF]

Thanks Count and Guo Bao Lo:

We will miss you this year, Guo Bao Lo. However, we finally got caught up a bit on our website and here is some highlights from our summer trips to China.

Perhaps you and your new upcoming bride could join us this summer. Qingdao would be a wonderful place for a honeymoon. Taiwan might also be in the cards.

Count, perhaps you or others might consider it.
We really have a lot of fun and usually Master Ma Long also goes on the trips (along with his students. New Yorkers really know how to have fun compared to us slow-paced midwesterners. Just kidding). Him commentary and energy really make it worthwhile.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/1998Trip/Shandong.html
http://www.wutangcenter.com/2000Trip/China2000.html

Back to the board:

Here is a roughly translated piece form GM Liu's Kun Wu Sword Book. His Da baji book, with Jason Tsou, is also available in paperback somewhere in SAn Francisco. Bad news, its in Chinese but Count you might want to check into it.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/Liu.html

[popsider]

My experience is that Wutan schools do try and teach too much. It isn't just Tai Chi but several different types of tai chi, mixed with Hsing I and Pa Kua, plus there are the external styles, wing chun, mantis etc. I'm not saying they all mix them up but some certainly do. I think that is a mistake unless you are able to learn full time it is far better to learn one or two styles. However I notice that their top man in Malaysia (on his web site) thinks that too so obviously this is not a universal thing.

Also I should balance my criticism by saying that their organisation contains some top martial artists, if you are looking for the real thing then you will find it IF you are willing to stay with Wutan and train hard you will not be wasting your time.

[count]

I'd like to here more about your experiences with Wutang'ers. In our school, we have ONE guy, out of about 35 who is doing more than one style at a time. He is mixing his Bagua with Mantis. IMO, this is a difficult thing to do. When I started Bagua, I set mantis aside. (except for fun) :)

in my time with my teacher, I have had the opportunity to study several different styles, but not really more than one at a time. There was about a one year period where I was learning both Longfist and Praying Mantis simultaneously and about a one year period where I was learning both Praying Mantis and Tai Chi Chuan at the same time. But these were only brief overlaps and for the most part it is always one style at a time.

I have never heard of anyone from Wu Tang practicing or teaching Wing Chung. Is that done at the UK branch? Is that where you study/studied?u

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


http://kabooom.com/af.gif

[Stumblefist]

RAF, why did you drop mantis? Your article in Journal of Asian Martial Arts, is it online?

Kumquat: Hong Kong? No way, What supports this?. Where ever else it's not there. Best taiji fighters in the world are in Wenxiang County or exported from there as far as i know.

Perhaps GM Liu's comment was regarding attitude and commitment, rather than final result.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[Kumkuat]

I was being sarcastic since that article shows hong kong taiji guys getting beat up by Muay Thai guys.

[RAF]

Stumblefist:

Unfortunately the articles are not on line.

Tony Yang did not open a school up until 1998. Only small groups were taught and baji/pigua was only available to disciples (I was not a disciple until 1994 or so). So everyone learned praying mantis: all the kicks, two man fighting exercises, stance work, seven hand, lots of basic 8 step praying mantis, a little meihua hand and meihua lu, 7 star praying mantis, si lu ben da, xiao hu yan, and qi qing zhai yao (actually placed 2nd in a tournament with that form). My heart was never in it. I have not practiced any mantis for a good 5 or 6 years but have great respect for it and enjoy watching the younger guys eat it up. I managed to tape most of the stuff and could review and get it back in a couple of months but I feel my time has passed regarding that system and style.

Now, most of my time is spent in bagua basics and on alternative days xiao baji, da qiang and kun wu /baji taiji; bagua sword and deerhorn knives.
Forms are not that important to me but training in the basics is where I like to stay.

Regarding the UK, don't know much about them. Never had any correpondence with them. You can go to our website and see our curriculum. Students make the choice as to where they want to be. Thats the difficulty of running a martial arts business and trying to maintain some level of traditional training. Our philosophy is classes are for learning and you train on your own. Many people like to dabble in the arts and feel good about training in a named style. At first I resented them but now I now understand (they help pay the "rent") and they aren't bad people. After you have been in the game for awhile, you can tell talks the walk and who really walks the walk.

I think it is hard for most people to stay interested traditional training. GM Liu, as conveyed to me by my teacher, told him you experience a breakthrough in power and then it fades. You train harder and harder and maybe the second breakthrough comes in a year or two and then it fades. You train again for a year or two and then the power appears again and stays. From that point on refinement becomes the game and that never ends. Advances forms and techniques are useless until you reach that stage.

But look at the number of years you tie up (8-10 years of serious basic training) and without a good teacher to guide and encourage you, traditional training is all but dead. Luckily I watched one of my older kung fu brothers train 9 years in xiao baji and da qiang. Once he had his permanent breakthrough just about anything he plays comes out good. Many of the masters and visitors from Taiwan were amazed that a Westerner could reach that level. So I just keep plugging along, training and learning. Oh yeah, my kungfu brother doesn't levitate but his block hurt like punches. He has the steel wrapped in cotton and not much can stop his punch. But again, that came from years of hard training.

[RAF]

Let me clarify a point or so. Tony Yang had been teaching since 1980 but on a very informal basis. It was in 1998 that he began to formally teach public.

It was not until GM Liu died in 1992 did many of us become aware of what Tony Yang had to offer. As his long time students, we are trying to make sure that some of the traditional training and systems remain viable and relatively public. Its an experiment and I am not sure it will work.

[popsider]

Yes I studied in the UK. They did and still do teach sil lim tao as part of the syllabus. I should say my comments are based on my limited personal experiences. I hesitated to voice that criticism because overall my experience was positive and I left because of practical difficulties rather than anything to do with the training.

[RAF]

Popsider:

I didn't take your comments as criticism just as observations and I am sorry to hear of your experience. There really is no unified curriculum among Wu Tang schools other than baji/pigua and bagua. Some schools under the Wu Tang name teach Yoga and stretch and others seldom, if ever, teach baji or the bagua while others may start you right into baji.

In response to Stumblefist, I just wanted to share some of my experiences in the Wu Tang(or Wu Tan). When I first went to Tony Yang in 1988, I had studied Jou Tsung Hwa's version of the Heng, Haaa breathing (qi gong form) and tried to show and engage Tony in a conversation about, actually trying to impress him with the form. He told me he never heard of it even though there stood, in front of me, two pieces of caligraphy by GM Liu describing these breathes as found in the baji system. About 5 years later, when he felt comfortable, he told me about the breaths and the translation of the caligraphy.

Many Wu Tang schools do not teach the 3 abstractions of Chen's taiji taught by GM Liu. They start with a linking form and then go into lao jia nnd pao tui. I spent many years in the first level of the abstracted form and thought it was bogus (it is played with no fajing and as slow in tempo as the Yang's form). Few people paid attention to GM Liu's knowledge of Yang style of taiji (other than his abstrcted form), yet his sword with its two man exercises and A & B fighting sides is outstanding. One teacher went as far as to deny GM Liu knew any Yang's taiji but most people never came to Wu Tang for Yang's taiji so it was never shown or discussed. Actually I didn't know about it until 1997 when I read a Taiwan magazine article (written in 1978) which described in a sentence or two GM Liu Yang shadow boxing along with his knife and sword.

Other teachers, like that of Count's and Guo Bao Lo's, are much more open, partly because of philosophy and partly because of command of the English language (my teacher initially was unable to speak English but does a pretty good job now and is much more open and comfortable explaining material).

In a closing note, there is a wide variety of arts sold under the Wu Tang banner and the buyer must beware. Even among GM Liu's 1st and 2nd generations disciples, a wide variety of teaching philosophies and forms exist. For example, my teacher knows over 12 xiao baji forms alone(regardless, learning the training principle overrides which form you get). A lot of older masters had spent considerable time in other systems before they entered into their final system (you find this among the old bagua masters), My teacher's old philosophy was you could spend a good 4 or 5 years in mantis before moving on. He reasoned that the conditioning and fighting wouldn't hurt you and also wanted to see how serious you were about the training. It would also prepare you for other Northern systems. Others do this with longfist. That only works well if you aren't doing martial arts for a living.

Good luck in your search Popsider. ;)