depressed about my form - is this normal?

[Kaitain(UK)]

Last night I had a really good training session in terms of pushing hands, but an awful time of it with my form

The only way I can describe it would be to compare it to a deaf and blind man suddenly regaining his senses in the middle of a nightclub.

Suddenly I am so aware of every fault I have, of every nuance I am failing to put into my form. It's very disheartening because I feel completely overwhelmed by the amount that I need to improve.

I used to train what my instructor told me too as I wasn't aware of what was wrong/missing beyond the fact that it didn't look the same as his. Then I went through a period of working the ten essential points into the form - at a crude level.

Last night I finally realised that my spine was not right - I needed to push my sacrum down and in. By doing that I was actually holding the correct spine shape for the first time - I thought I was straight before but suddenly I realised what straight really was.

That changed my whole form - steps didn't work the same way anymore (my root has shifted slightly). All my hand positions seemed to be fighting my spine. My sacrum felt like a horizontal yo-yo - everytime I stopped thinking about keeping it tucked it pooped out again. My head position felt wrong. Sequences like Grasp Sparrows felt disjointed and crap - my arms were no longer linked to my waist.

I'm hoping that this is a natural stage we all go through - a realisation that what I believed I was achieving by tucking my cocix (sp?) in was not the same as what is achieved by pushing the sacrum down and in.

I feel like I'm really seeing my form for what it is and I'm conscious of how much needs to be done.

Am I alone?

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[brassmonkey]

"Am I alone?"
Yes. I'm glad I'm not you. haha, just playing at least your aware of these things now.

[HuangKaiVun]

One of Yang Cheng Fu's students (I THINK it was Yang) was complaining that after a really hot start, he couldn't do ANYTHING right.

Yang beamed and said "Now you're getting GOOD".

[dedalus]

That YCF story's nice - simple and true :-)

Kaitain,

I've had a similar thing happen to my bagua formwork of late. About a month or so ago I became aware of some principles I should be better exemplifying in my practise, and as I began to integrate these changes and adjust my form it stopped running fast and smooth and become stilted and uncomfortable. The worst part about it was that when I tried to revert to the more basic level so that I could at least enjoy the old way - it was gone! I just can't go back there. I've been comforting myself with the fact that I can feel technical improvments in many postures and movements, even though I can't string it all together or perform consistently.

It does feel daunting to realise that learning a sequence is still light years away from mastering a form... but on the other hand, it testifies to the depth of the internal arts which is reassuring and wonderous in itself.

I think this is where one's personal understanding begins to really grow and mature... now you get to (begin to!) own your knowledge.

[GLW]

The first step to fixing something is knowing it is broken.

[Wongsifu]

believe it or not kaitan is actually getting to a higher level of training, ive noticed this occurs when the student starts forhimself to rediscover the principles of taiji, not just go by what people say,
you may have tried for 1 year 5 years to actually tilt the sacrum forward, buto ne day, your body will start to speak to oy and fine tune you by saying, hey fool fuse the hips with the rest of th ebody, tilt that sacrum in , have you forgotten thouse yongchuan pooints in your feet !!!!

such is life

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[Sum Guye]

getting a higher level of training... someone suggesting you tuck your tail bone under...that restricts the movement of the hips and slows the entire body. (all those eons of evolution developed that curve in your spine for a reason).

No true Master of IMA tucks their tail bone under.
Look at any photos of the IMA old timers- Yang family, the Sun family... Tai Ji, Ba Gua... none tuck the bum... that's a misunderstanding of the art.

The head is being pulled up from the center, the spine hangs down naturally.... it isn't natural to tuck. Do you think a Cheetah could run faster if they straighten out the curve in their back?
(ever watched a great ice skater, gymnast or swimmer?.... the curve is always there in good body mechanics.

In answer to the original question, no it's not unusual to get depressed during your struggle for improvement... but beyond that, you may be getting depressed because your body well understands what your mind is trying to unteach it.

Peace love and fuzzy socks,
Sum Guye

[Nexus]

Sum Guye, how many years in the internal arts do you have?

- Nexus

[Sum Guye]

Off and on, almost 10 years.

I studied Yang Style Tai Ji (large frame)
[inconsistently] for 3 years under a very good
teacher who only taught forms and Chi Gung.

Then, I met an even better teacher who turned me on to the combat side of Tai Ji. I studied Yang Large frame & Small Circle with him for 3 years... (three days a week).

During that period I had the fortune of attending a 4 day seminar under Yang Zenduo (son of Yang Chenfu) where he spoke at length about the wide-spread misunderstanding of "the back being straight". He even had the audacity to say tucking the tailbone under was detrimental to body alignment which is detrimental to power.

I then began studying Sun Style Ba Gua under Tim Cartmell for a little over 3 years now. I've
also studied Yi Chuan with Tim, also BJJ, some Gao Style Bagua and a smidgen of Hsing-Yi. (during my years with Tim I've attended several seminars held by renown Internal Martial Arts teachers visiting from China.. each very respected for their fighting and teaching abilities. All of them say the same (some even chuckle) when asked about the butt tucking.)

And again, if you look at pictures of Yang Chenfu, Sun Lu-Tang etc.... their backs are straight yet their butts are not the least bit tucked.

The best way to test this is to have someone behind you place their hands on your hips (palms right above your butt) and (gently at first) push in the direction of your navel (forward and slightly down)... you should feel the pressure from the push going into your feet... then, try with your butt tucked under.

I'm not trying to say I'm the best or any better than you... but I am saying that the originators of these styles did not butt-tuck and never suggested their students should.
(and if you're going to reply some nonsense about how Chin Wei-Ming got his tail tucking ideas from Yang ChenFu; Yang Chenfu's son tells a whole different version of their student/teacher history and relationship).

I'm just trying to help clear up confusion when I can.. and I'm going on some solid sources.

Peace Love and Apple Cobbler
Sum Guye

[bamboo_ leaf]

depends on the teacher and style I suppose.

i studied the,
Yang style as taught but the Tung family, and Chen Man-Ching style. Both are very different in their approach to what is straight among many other things.

The CMC style is all that I play now.

I also watch and train with many people here in Golden Gate Park. Looking at the many differnt TC styles. Each seems to have their way and outlook on why it works, or what is wrong with yours.

In the end I think the only way is by self-experience and keeping an open mind. I personally just relax and slightly tuck. This tends to make the lower back straight; the upper back has a slight roundness to it. It leaves me really relaxed and sunk.

If I may offer another way to understand and check.

Stand relaxed, head suspended. Have some one gently push you from the front back and L-R sides. Adjust as needed to find your root with out resisting the push. Once you can feel this. Try it with some of your postures and see what works for you. If still in doubt ask your teacher to help explain things.

I too, have been training for a while but always remain open to correction, and ideas to make my understanding deeper and art grow.

luck in your training

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[Kaitain(UK)]

I push the spine down at the base - I don't change the angle of my hips at all, my Kua points can still be opened and closed without hindrance (which you can't do if you angle your hips upwards).

When I sink the base of my spine down my whole posture feels right - it is different to tucking

We test all postures from every direction and I'm more solid than before - especially when someone pushes me from my back - it now goes straight through my feet as opposed to me needing to adjust to root.

That said, I have been taught it is a slight adjustment, not a complete shape change. There was definitely a 'kink' in my lower back before that meant I didn't root everything that came in - some energy was always leaking backwards and pushing me to my heel (eventually).

The change in what I was doing and what I am doing is probably less than a centimetre (it may even be nothing) - I think most of the change comes from mentally forcing my spine to push down. It's like raising the top of the head - you don't shove your head upwards but the feeling is there because of the pulling in of the chin - it's more like a stretch than anything.

To give you a picture of how the change feels - as I surge forwards into Brush Knee I now feel that my centre is leading the way/is being fired forwards. Previously I was just sort of drifting forwards.

Thank you for the advice though.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[toddbringewatt]

Kaitain,

The reason you are overwhelmed is you are lacking a single stable datum.

Here's what I mean. Train yourself the way you would coach someone else. You wouldn't point out twelve things that were the matter with the form and then tell him to work on them all at once. No, you'd take up one thing at a time and coach that single thing until he had it down, then move on to the next fault, and so on and so on until everything had been corrected and the student was doing well with everything.

Treat yourself the same way. You discovered something new about your form, something you corrected? Great! Take the win! Drill that until you've got it and don't worry about any of the other aspects. Then when that's down move on to the next most important thing and get that in while still keeping in what you mastered before it. Take this nice easy, stable gradient approach and you'll have a blast and win win win.

Good luck. :)

may the force be with you

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think your interpetation of actualy tucking the tail bone in may be a little off.
What I mean is as you practice tai chi you should be aware of points in the body one such point is the (mingmen)when you stand you contrict this point naturally with the curve of the lumbar vertabres when you play tai chi you should open this point along with focus on the lower dantien and fuzhongchin center of the body.
A way to explain how to open the mingmen point is tuck tail bone/sacrum in or tip your pelvis.
this does not mean to exaggerate the movement but be aware of it mentally to stimulate proper chi movment through the spine.just wanted to help clear up the confusion

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

Nope.

"Mingmen" translate to the English term: (pardon my spelling) 'Perrineum' (the point between your anus and scrotum). During internal forms training it is sometimes taught to 'pull up the perrineum slightly'... which does keep one's mind on the pelvis but has absolutely nothing to do with the hips or tail bone.

The hips (pelvis) should be thought of as a bowl full of water... you do not want to spill the water (don't tilt the bowl).

You call it 'Chi' I call it'energy' (tomato,tomAto)...weakening my structural stability will not promote better energy flow. I've been there, tried that... and then I found better teachers.

Peace, love and nipples
Sum Guye

[Kaitain(UK)]

I know that the hips floating about and not being parallel with the floor is a fault - I'm not doing that. I'm keeping my hips level but I'm mentally pushing down - I'm pushing my sacrum/perineum/ringpiece DOWN and then very slightly in. My hips are level because otherwise I wouldn't be able to open and close my Kua points in the form. I also wouldn't be able to sink and place my steps.

People are clearly saying that it's more awareness and stretching than trying to chew a walnut with your butt cheeks :) - perineum, sacrum, lower back or ar.sehole - it doesn't matter as long as you are aware of what it's doing. Give other students some credit - there are a few good teachers around and other people aside from yourself train with them. My explanation did sound like I was butt-munching - but I've clarified that twice now...

Bruce Leroy - I know that's what I'm doing - unfortunately you can't take away awareness once you've gained it can you? I'm working on one or two things at a time in the form - but I can feel what the other areas are doing. I'm feeling better today because my form feels better - the change is beginning to incorporate itself into my form

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[toddbringewatt]

"Bruce Leroy - I know that's what I'm doing - unfortunately you can't take away awareness once you've gained it can you?"

Perhaps you can't but that isn't the issue. What you CAN do is FOCUS your attention. Don't let it drift onto what you're not currently drilling. You CAN control where you put your attention. If this is difficult for you, email me and I'll give you some exercises you can do to improve this.

"I'm working on one or two things at a time in the form - but I can feel what the other areas are doing."

Try working on ONLY ONE at a time. Stop paying attention to what the other aspects are doing. It may come into your awareness but just don't put any attention on it and keep working out the aspect you're currently on.

"I'm feeling better today because my form feels better - the change is beginning to incorporate itself into my form"

That's great. If you've got it all figured out and are doing well now I wouldn't bother with anybody's advice about it too much -- including mine.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

Because they already know it all. Haven't you noticed?


:)

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

[Dietmar]

Someone have to be carefull of pushing the sacrum
down and in. This way you might lock your hip and
you will be not able to sink and relax.
Folding the hip and relaxing (opening the but /kai)will leed to a proper posture. Hold your head upright as pulled by a string this all will
let your spine opening up and downward.
Best regards
Dietmar

[PlasticSquirrel]

the mingmen located on your lower back.

i've always heard that you should tuck the tailbone forward slightly

[Wongsifu]

to end disputes

the ming men is the point between the two kidneys.
also known as the door of life , its NOT your perineum

the spine should be naturally straight , with the bottom part straight ...
take a book or a piece of wood and put it so that the last of your spinal discs all straighten up.... thats how to do it , its got nothing to do with your ass , you may have a big ass or a small ass or whatever , what counts is havign your last discs aligned, after a while though, when energy flow is strong enough it realignes your spine for you how it should be , you wil feel that the structure has changed .... and you will know the structure is correct.
I have seen people stick theri ass out , stick it in but in all cases the bottom vertebrae are perfectly straight as if your back is on the wall.

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[MaFuYee]

obsessive desire for attention points to deep seated emotional issues.

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[Kaitain(UK)]

please explain.

edit time

Actually - I think it's clear that you're making some petty swipe at me for seeking reassurance over my learning path.

All power to you - I'm not confident enough in myself to blithely push ahead in the face of adversity. I sought solace in the opinions of my Kung-fu colleagues. Some of the advice I didn't like, some I did. It all gave me food for thought and enabled me to be more objective.

Thanks for your usual constructive contributions - I often search out your posts for their fulfilling and informative approach.

What a sad existence you lead

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[This message was edited by Kaitain(UK) on 10-10-01 at 09:29 AM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

NOPE....

sorry to point out that you are wrong again but you make me laugh when you said you trained internal kung fu for 10 years and then you say something like this?

"Mingmen translate to the English term: (pardon my spelling) 'Perrineum' (the point between your anus and scrotum). During internal forms training it is sometimes taught to 'pull up the perrineum slightly'... which does keep one's mind on the pelvis but has absolutely nothing to do with the hips or tail bone".

To correct you , the point that YOU are reffering to is called (huiyin) it is the point between the anus and scrotum, in accupunture the tip of the governing vessel (tu mo)
this is not what we are talking about,when I mentioned the ming men point that you so quickly reponded NOPE on page 1

but just to explain again the mingemen which is located "as WONGSIFU said between the kidneys"
when you practice tai chi you should be aware of points in the body one such point is the (mingmen)when you stand you constrict this point naturally with the curve of the lumbar vertabres when you play tai chi you should open this point along with focus on the lower dantien and fuzhongchin center of the body.
A way to explain how to open the mingmen point is tuck tail bone/sacrum in or tip your pelvis forward slightly.
this does not mean to exaggerate the movement but be aware of it mentally to stimulate proper chi movment through the spine.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Hmm, I have to say that ming-men is definitely not the perineum. However I agree with Sum Guye's take on "butt tucking."

This is something I've been working on explaining lately. Usually I can simply demonstrate it but I'll try it in text form.

The pelvis can be rotated (in this context) three ways. From the top (superior iliac ridge), the centre (superior aspect of the acetabulum) or the base (tip of the coccyx).

When rotated from the top, this means the top is fixed in place and the bottom moves forward, you get a pelvic thrust. This is clearly wrong for good internal structure.

When rotated in the middle, the top of the pelvis moves back and the base moves forward. This is the usual "tuck the buttocks" posture most people end up with. This posture still causes tension in the abdominal interior, particularly the iliopsoas group. Tension in this muscle group is a major compromise of internal power.

The last way to rotate the pelvis is with the coccyx held in a static place while the top of the pelvis rocks back. This allows the low back to open, especially mingmen, and doesn't require tension in the iliopsoas group. To the casual or untrained observer this looks like the buttocks are tucked in, when it is actually the low back that opens.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Kumkuat]

It's kinda late, but yeah, I'm always depressed at my form.