I wanna shift ol' school

[couch]

Hey everyone,

So I've been shifting on my heel for some time and am interested in shifting on the K1.

I'm an Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor, therefore I understand the principles behind the shift.

However...can someone (or everyone) describe to me how to do it? When I try to shift just behind the ball of the foot...I either DO shift on the ball or I feel like my knees are going to blow out due to the weird pressure.

Thanks in advance!

Kenton Sefcik

[Todai]

There isnt a simple fix, it will take some training time as i find bad stance habits harder to break than sloppy hands. It sounds like weight distribution is a playing a role here. Try sinking in your stance while practicing shifting in order to force proper wieght distribution. You weight shouldnt be so far back as to shift on the heel or too foward such that you are on the toes or ball of the foot. The other exorcise i find useful in stance problems is practicing Huen Ma from the Bil Jee form.

[anerlich]

"I'm an Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor, therefore I understand the principles behind the shift."

Could you explain these to a layman with some experience in TCM (see the link below)? And why this is preferable to a purely mechanistic/kinesiological approach?

Sincere questions, not a challenge.

TIA

[couch]

"I'm an Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor, therefore I understand the principles behind the shift."

Could you explain these to a layman with some experience in TCM (see the link below)? And why this is preferable to a purely mechanistic/kinesiological approach?

Sincere questions, not a challenge.

TIA

I honestly don't know about the latter. That's why I'm experimenting with the K1 now. I'm a proud heel shifter (I teach this method)! I love the mobility, etc. I love how I can lean forward, backward, etc, move...with the heel shifting. Just playing around with it.

However, from a TCM background, the most plausible explanation is the connection to the ground. It is the acupuncture point which connects "man" between heaven and earth - while Du20 http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=GV20&meridian=Governing%20Vessel is what connects us with the Big Dipper/Heaven.

How do you shift Andrew? Anywho...either way we shift...I'll be sure to kick a55!!!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[anerlich]

However, from a TCM background, the most plausible explanation is the connection to the ground. It is the acupuncture point which connects "man" between heaven and earth - while Du20 http://images.google.ca/images?clien...earch+Imag es is what connects us with the Big Dipper/Heaven.

I figured it was something like that. Don't see the relevance of the link though (index of thumbnails of YM and BL?)

In TWC we try to shift using small steps, rather than just pivoting on the balls or heels. I've alway been told the balls of the foot are most important, but in practice I've found I use both significantly.

TCM principles aside, I'd be a bit wary - if you're knees are saying "This hurts", it's prabably a bad idea. Having to get you technique millimeter correct to avoid knee damage to adhere to a principle whose real-world value is unclear doesn't seem like a good idea to me.


Anywho...either way we shift...I'll be sure to kick a55!!!

And that HAS to be the untimate yardstick of effectiveness and correctness.

[Alan Orr]

Hi couch

It is correct to use K1. The heels lack control of power when you receive force.

You may use the whole foot at times when loading weight, but to issue forward pressure you must transfer weight from the whole foot to K1.

This is from one of my articles:

Ging Chong Gwut Gun Faat, Lik Chong Gerk Jang Sheng - Power comes from bones and tendons, strength originates from the heels

Often people describe power in Wing Chun being delivered by bone power or bone alignment. Unfortunately, what you often see is locking out of the joints, i.e. the main punching arm will be extended at the elbow and shoulder. This is a very limited source of power development and more importantly causes severe damage in the long term to the elbow and to the rotor-cuff of the shoulder. (As a practitioner of Chinese medicine, I can confirm that I have often had to treat this problem with new students). Now, locking the joints out on impact does produce a release of power but this is only a small amount compared to the power that can be produced with the whole body structure via kinetic linking to the ground. One of the main benefits of this type of body connection alignment is that not only can you issue power in this manner due to the “spring” nature of the body but you can also absorb power through the body into the ground without taking undue pressure into the joints. If you align your body in this correct manner the joints will absorb pressure and redirect the pressure without effort into the ground and the tendons will twist and strengthen and become stronger with this practice. Therefore when we talk about strength originating from the heels this is really talking about absorbing pressure and rooting therefore explaining the nature of the body in its spring position.

"Power originates from the heels, travels up the ankle and knee joints, is in conjunction with the waist, issues forth from the body and rib cage, travels down the shoulders, to the elbow, to the wrist and manifests from the hands". -Robert Chu Sigung

Let me sort out the missing links for you. Kinetic linking is a term which describes how to correctly load gravitational forces in your body.

Generating maximum mass is achieved through the alignment of the ankle, knee, hip, shoulder and elbow. These are the kinetic links in which power is generated and transferred. Should one of these links be out of alignment, its ability to transfer power from the rest of the body is reduced. To issue power using these mechanics you push your body forward and upward, making sure the three dan tian are moving in sequence, from bottom to top (Qi Hai > Tan Zhong > Yin Tang). Your three dan tian points are located approximately at the same positions as your segmented centers of gravity. So what you’re doing is pushing your entire mass forward and upward using all the aligned kinetic links (joints) in your body. Whether stepping or stationary, the principles remain the same. This is what is meant by using power from the ground up. Naturally, rooting power into the ground is done using the same mechanics.

The problem you will have in combat if you are locking out your joints is that you have committed your striking power. Therefore if you have actually missed your target you will find yourself exposed and also will have no stored power available. When I think of this I would say it is like having only one arrow, once you’ve shot that arrow you’ll have none left. If you generate your power from the ground you’ll have an endless source of ammunition. So now you have an automatic machine-gun! Therefore if you punch and miss you can then readjust and re-fire much more quickly and much more effectively because you haven’t over-committed your arm position. The fact is, the body alignment and body position are the important factors in generating power.


Go to www.alanorr.com for the full article.

My best

Alan

[couch]

Hi couch

It is correct to use K1. The heels lack control of power when you receive force.

You may use the whole foot at times when loading weight, but to issue forward pressure you must transfer weight from the whole foot to K1.

This is from one of my articles:

Ging Chong Gwut Gun Faat, Lik Chong Gerk Jang Sheng - Power comes from bones and tendons, strength originates from the heels

Often people describe power in Wing Chun being delivered by bone power or bone alignment. Unfortunately, what you often see is locking out of the joints, i.e. the main punching arm will be extended at the elbow and shoulder. This is a very limited source of power development and more importantly causes severe damage in the long term to the elbow and to the rotor-cuff of the shoulder. (As a practitioner of Chinese medicine, I can confirm that I have often had to treat this problem with new students). Now, locking the joints out on impact does produce a release of power but this is only a small amount compared to the power that can be produced with the whole body structure via kinetic linking to the ground. One of the main benefits of this type of body connection alignment is that not only can you issue power in this manner due to the “spring” nature of the body but you can also absorb power through the body into the ground without taking undue pressure into the joints. If you align your body in this correct manner the joints will absorb pressure and redirect the pressure without effort into the ground and the tendons will twist and strengthen and become stronger with this practice. Therefore when we talk about strength originating from the heels this is really talking about absorbing pressure and rooting therefore explaining the nature of the body in its spring position.

"Power originates from the heels, travels up the ankle and knee joints, is in conjunction with the waist, issues forth from the body and rib cage, travels down the shoulders, to the elbow, to the wrist and manifests from the hands". -Robert Chu Sigung

Let me sort out the missing links for you. Kinetic linking is a term which describes how to correctly load gravitational forces in your body.

Generating maximum mass is achieved through the alignment of the ankle, knee, hip, shoulder and elbow. These are the kinetic links in which power is generated and transferred. Should one of these links be out of alignment, its ability to transfer power from the rest of the body is reduced. To issue power using these mechanics you push your body forward and upward, making sure the three dan tian are moving in sequence, from bottom to top (Qi Hai > Tan Zhong > Yin Tang). Your three dan tian points are located approximately at the same positions as your segmented centers of gravity. So what you’re doing is pushing your entire mass forward and upward using all the aligned kinetic links (joints) in your body. Whether stepping or stationary, the principles remain the same. This is what is meant by using power from the ground up. Naturally, rooting power into the ground is done using the same mechanics.

The problem you will have in combat if you are locking out your joints is that you have committed your striking power. Therefore if you have actually missed your target you will find yourself exposed and also will have no stored power available. When I think of this I would say it is like having only one arrow, once you’ve shot that arrow you’ll have none left. If you generate your power from the ground you’ll have an endless source of ammunition. So now you have an automatic machine-gun! Therefore if you punch and miss you can then readjust and re-fire much more quickly and much more effectively because you haven’t over-committed your arm position. The fact is, the body alignment and body position are the important factors in generating power.


Go to www.alanorr.com for the full article.

My best

Alan


Thanks for sharing, Alan. Can you please explain to me how YOU teach someone to shift on this point? Do you instruct people to shift initially like the LT guys do it (one foot at a time) and then together, etc? Just playing around with this shift.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Alan Orr]

Hi Kenton

No problem. Most of it is in the article as such. Its all to do with how you use your weight, hips and kenetic power which you store in your stance.

You should centre your weight and turn from your hips on the balls of both feet. You hip should press forward and up as you turn. This is a very small movement. You do not turn your hips out you must know how to delink your joints to gain power in the turn and not over turn the hip ( which is what most people do).

You must know how to make your body light and when to make it heavy.

Hard to show on an email. I am going to post some clips from my video series very soon. I will show this on the clips, as I think it is one thing we do very differently in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[couch]

Hi Kenton

No problem. Most of it is in the article as such. Its all to do with how you use your weight, hips and kenetic power which you store in your stance.

You should centre your weight and turn from your hips on the balls of both feet. You hip should press forward and up as you turn. This is a very small movement. You do not turn your hips out you must know how to delink your joints to gain power in the turn and not over turn the hip ( which is what most people do).

You must know how to make your body light and when to make it heavy.

Hard to show on an email. I am going to post some clips from my video series very soon. I will show this on the clips, as I think it is one thing we do very differently in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com


Maybe I'm missing something here.

In TCM, the K1 is in the middle of the width of the foot, anterior 1/3 (not including the toes). This I feel is mighty close to the arch. Is this not where your K1 lies, as you are talking about the BALLS of your feet?

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=KI1&meridian=Kidney

Thanks for the discussion,
Kenton Sefcik

[Alan Orr]

Hi Kenton

RE:

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Alan: I think you are, but thats because my method is maybe new to you. Again it not so easy to write about it and fully understand it.


RE:

In TCM, the K1 is in the middle of the width of the foot, anterior 1/3 (not including the toes). This I feel is mighty close to the arch. Is this not where your K1 lies, as you are talking about the BALLS of your feet?

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPicture...eridian=Kidney



Alan: You are correct on where K1 is. But to know where the point is does not activate it. Wing Chun power comes from the heal - ie when you are standing on your whole feet you transfer weight forward away from the heal to the ball of the feet which in turn activates and pumps K1. The point is at the base of the ball of the foot, I don't mean on your toes as such.

It order to do this you did to learn how to sink and rise your stand correctly. This moves the Chi and teaches the muscles to link and delink.

I hope that helps

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

Alan

[couch]

Hi Kenton

RE:

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Alan: I think you are, but thats because my method is maybe new to you. Again it not so easy to write about it and fully understand it.


RE:

In TCM, the K1 is in the middle of the width of the foot, anterior 1/3 (not including the toes). This I feel is mighty close to the arch. Is this not where your K1 lies, as you are talking about the BALLS of your feet?

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPicture...eridian=Kidney



Alan: You are correct on where K1 is. But to know where the point is does not activate it. Wing Chun power comes from the heal - ie when you are standing on your whole feet you transfer weight forward away from the heal to the ball of the feet which in turn activates and pumps K1. The point is at the base of the ball of the foot, I don't mean on your toes as such.

It order to do this you did to learn how to sink and rise your stand correctly. This moves the Chi and teaches the muscles to link and delink.

I hope that helps

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

Alan


That TOTALLY helps. You instruct well over the internet!

When I was first learning to shift on the heels, my instructor got me to push off of the foot to exaggerate the motion, but this linking/de-linking idea works well for getting the K1 to activate and now I can use it to shift.

I also did some punching with this new forward pressure and I can really feel a difference! I feel more solid and whatever I hit is taking more of the impact of the punch. It actually feels like the Ging that I've been "forcing" through excess shoulder movement.

Thank you very much!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Alan Orr]

Hi Kenton

Thanks for your feedback

That's no problem.

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[guy b.]

Alan, does your method have anything to do with the TSK form from HG?

[stricker]

nice info on here :)

couch,

this is totally off topic but its williams not roper ;)

[couch]

nice info on here :)

couch,

this is totally off topic but its williams not roper ;)

Nice to know people read sig's!!!

Thanks much. Williams...played by Jim Kelly!

http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/jim-kelly.htm

Will fix soon.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guy b

RE:

Alan, does your method have anything to do with the TSK form from HG?


Alan:

Sorry Guy, I'm not sure who you mean. My system is Chu Su Lei Wing Chun. You can read the articles on my web site www.alanorr.com. But when you have time do come down and see what we do. I'm sure you will enjoyed the training.

Body Structure is the key to wing chun.

My best

Alan

[CFT]

Alan, does your method have anything to do with the TSK form from HG?Alan - Tit Seen Kuen (Iron Wire Boxing form) from Hung Gar.

[guy b.]

Reason I ask is that Tid sin kuen is the foundational "power" set in hung gar, and i believe that Robert Chu knows it. It is very effective from what I have heard. The set has been grafted into other short systems before (eg Tony Leung's steelwire mantis from chow gar in the 1980's). Wing chun would seem like a prime candidate for inclusion of this set.

[t_niehoff]

Reason I ask is that Tid sin kuen is the foundational "power" set in hung gar, and i believe that Robert Chu knows it. It is very effective from what I have heard. The set has been grafted into other short systems before (eg Tony Leung's steelwire mantis from chow gar in the 1980's). Wing chun would seem like a prime candidate for inclusion of this set.

Robert's body structure methods come from Hawkins Cheung, his teacher (if you look at them both, they use their bodies in the same general way). Hawkins does not (to my knowledge) know or practice Hung Ga or TSK. Hawkins/Robert's body structure is simply *a way* (not the only way) of taking those things that are in WCK and making them functional. WCK has its own methods for generating/receiving power and they are "integrated" into its techniques; trying to add a different means of generating power (using the body) won't integrate (try using karate body with boxing hands -- it won't work because the hands and body need to work together as an integrated unit).

Just my view of course.

Terence

[guy b.]

Hung gar method will integrate, since wing chun is contained within hung gar.

[CFT]

Hung gar method will integrate, since wing chun is contained within hung gar.Doh! This is over-generalization! Similarities between Southern Chinese MA systems do not mean that one is the sub-set of the other.

[t_niehoff]

Doh! This is over-generalization! Similarities between Southern Chinese MA systems do not mean that one is the sub-set of the other.

Good point.

Moreover, I don't understand the desire some have to bring anything other than WCK into WCK discussions. WCK has *its* methods. Hawkins/Robert's body structure is one of those methods. We don't need to look outside of WCK to develop our WCK (just as boxing doesn't need to look outside boxing to develop their boxing).

Terence

[guy b.]

Re the desire to bring things into wing chun: the reason is simple, many people have non-functional wing chun. Hence the massive interest in things like Robert Chu's body structure method which promise to correct the deficiency. Now I'm sure I'll be bombarded with "MY wing chun is great and has no such deficiency" comments, and this is great for you, but on the wider scale there is obviously an issue...the problem keeps on coming up. Alan Orr himself talks about it on his web site.

Hung gar's Tid sin kuen is a well known southern chinese form dealing with general power production mechanics; hung gar is very diverse..the short bridge stuff easily encompasses wing chun, although it is not nearly so refined; and TSK has a history of being added to the refined short arts (eg tong long) to aid power production and give extra oomph. Many sifu in short styles, or at least those who make them work, have a history of hung gar and TSK which is interesting. Since I heard that Robert Chu knows the form, I wondered if it had anything to do with his body structure method. Just curious really.

I don't understand the need to find solutions from within wing chun. Wing chun should work for you, not you for it. If you can't find what you need then get it elsewhere IMO. I'm not really interested in preservation of things that could be done better. Cross training is the way to go for usable skills and I don't feel any tribal attachment to wing chun.

[t_niehoff]

Re the desire to bring things into wing chun: the reason is simple, many people have non-functional wing chun.


Yes, but the main reason so many have non-functional WCK is because of *how* they train. If a person doesn't train like a fighter, their WCK won't be functional in fighting.



Hence the massive interest in things like Robert Chu's body structure method which promise to correct the deficiency.


Hawkins/Robert's body structure is not a panacea, and won't in and of itself make one's WCK functional. How a person trains will make their WCK functional. Robert's body structure is one way. But there are other valid ways too. (And many that aren't valid). Regardless of the way or how good it is, without the proper training, it will make no difference in terms of functionality.

Still, one doesn't need to look outside WCK for how to make WCK functional. Robert's body structure is already present in WCK. The real strength of Robert's approach is in how he teaches it and focuses on it.



Now I'm sure I'll be bombarded with "MY wing chun is great and has no such deficiency" comments, and this is great for you, but on the wider scale there is obviously an issue...the problem keeps on coming up. Alan Orr himself talks about it on his web site.


Believe me, I'm on board with that most people won't be able to make their WCK work. ;)



Hung gar's Tid sin kuen is a well known southern chinese form dealing with general power production mechanics; hung gar is very diverse..the short bridge stuff easily encompasses wing chun, although it is not nearly so refined; and TSK has a history of being added to the refined short arts (eg tong long) to aid power production and give extra oomph. Many sifu in short styles, or at least those who make them work, have a history of hung gar and TSK which is interesting. Since I heard that Robert Chu knows the form, I wondered if it had anything to do with his body structure method. Just curious really.


The TSK stuff I've seen is mostly nonsense, and I've yet to see anyone really make their Hung Ga functional (where are the Hung Ga NHB fighters?). WCK methods are not Hung Ga's methods.



I don't understand the need to find solutions from within wing chun. Wing chun should work for you, not you for it. If you can't find what you need then get it elsewhere IMO. I'm not really interested in preservation of things that could be done better. Cross training is the way to go for usable skills and I don't feel any tribal attachment to wing chun.

It has nothing to do with preserving anything -- it's just that the answer (how to use the body) is already there, so why look anywhere else? If you can't find the answer to how to make your WCK work within WCK, what makes you believe you can find it in some other art (which doesn't use/follow WCK's methods)? I cross-train but that's not to make my WCK functional. Doing BJJ doesn't increase your boxing skills. ;)

Terence

[couch]

Re the desire to bring things into wing chun: the reason is simple, many people have non-functional wing chun. Hence the massive interest in things like Robert Chu's body structure method which promise to correct the deficiency. Now I'm sure I'll be bombarded with "MY wing chun is great and has no such deficiency" comments, and this is great for you, but on the wider scale there is obviously an issue...the problem keeps on coming up. Alan Orr himself talks about it on his web site.

Hung gar's Tid sin kuen is a well known southern chinese form dealing with general power production mechanics; hung gar is very diverse..the short bridge stuff easily encompasses wing chun, although it is not nearly so refined; and TSK has a history of being added to the refined short arts (eg tong long) to aid power production and give extra oomph. Many sifu in short styles, or at least those who make them work, have a history of hung gar and TSK which is interesting. Since I heard that Robert Chu knows the form, I wondered if it had anything to do with his body structure method. Just curious really.

I don't understand the need to find solutions from within wing chun. Wing chun should work for you, not you for it. If you can't find what you need then get it elsewhere IMO. I'm not really interested in preservation of things that could be done better. Cross training is the way to go for usable skills and I don't feel any tribal attachment to wing chun.

No-one should every feel attached to a MA. That happens when there's politics and brainwashing.

However, I personally like WC and want my WC to be as thoroughly close to the "original" or "old family" as I can in my life time...in hopes that the next bloke takes when he/she has and does the same.

If you can't find it in WC, then take it from somewhere else - but keep looking within your own system.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[guy b.]

Hi t_niehoff, I completely agree that the most important thing is the training. All people who want to learn how to fight need to do full contact standup on a regular basis, along with ground and wrestling/clinch. These also need to be integrated properly. The most important thing is to train against a fully resisting opponent. Chi sao, forms etc are just foundations.

Now the reason I stick with wing chun is that I believe it offers a good way of approaching certain types of situations. To borrow a bjj term, I think that it brings a higher level of "technique" to a standup striking situation not explicitly taught in many other MA. However it does suffer from the "wing chun has everything" syndrome. Basically I think this is rubbish. We don't see wing chun people winning many fighting events and when a wing chun person comes to train MMA with us they usually get pasted until they learn what to do and what not to do. The answers to everything are blatantly not in wing chun. The number one problem I see is lack of striking power.

People like Alan Orr offer a method to remedy this situation and so naturally I'm interested in finding out what they teach. As most southern chinese MA are very similar in terms of power production I'm wondering if it is lifted from another art (eg Hung gar).

As an aside, the TSK you are likely to have seen will be the public consumption made-up rubbish. HG is not taught openly and TSK is strictly in-door only. Its purpose is to entrain the neural pathways involved in punching mechanics. You could get a similar effect from olympic lifts I guess.

[Nick Forrer]

Guy,

come to the class in maida vale when you have time and all will be revealed;)

BTW, where does your experience in SCM come from? Paul Whitrod or Jim Uglow?

[guy b.]

Nick, I will come along soon, this is an interesting topic for me.

Do you mean SPM? If so my experience comes from neither of those two people. Jim Unglow only teaches hung gar I think, don't know about Paul Whitrod..I thought mainly chow gar SPM and hsing yi..wouldn't be suprised if PW knows TSK though.

[t_niehoff]

Nick,

Have you trained with Steve Morris? I've only read his stuff and seen some of his DVDs but he has a very interesting perspective.

Terence

[t_niehoff]

Hi t_niehoff, I completely agree that the most important thing is the training. All people who want to learn how to fight need to do full contact standup on a regular basis, along with ground and wrestling/clinch. These also need to be integrated properly. The most important thing is to train against a fully resisting opponent. Chi sao, forms etc are just foundations.

Now the reason I stick with wing chun is that I believe it offers a good way of approaching certain types of situations. To borrow a bjj term, I think that it brings a higher level of "technique" to a standup striking situation not explicitly taught in many other MA. However it does suffer from the "wing chun has everything" syndrome. Basically I think this is rubbish.


I agree with you: WCK certainly doesn't have everything and doesn't prepare you for everything (like the ground). It's like boxing or muay thai or wrestling or BJJ -- it gives you a subset of the total fighting "package", but that subset is fairly well self-contained and has the "ingredients" necessary to make that method work.



We don't see wing chun people winning many fighting events and when a wing chun person comes to train MMA with us they usually get pasted until they learn what to do and what not to do. The answers to everything are blatantly not in wing chun. The number one problem I see is lack of striking power.


WCK people aren't winning many fighting events because they are not training properly. How many WCK people are going and fighting with MMAists as part of their training (hint: Alan is). It doesn't matter what your "style", if you are not doing this sort of training (fighting against skilled people), you're not going to have much of a chance beating skilled people!

And, I'm not saying the "answers to everything" are in WCK. I'm saying the answers to how to make WCK work are within WCK. Hawkins/Robert's body structure methods are within WCK -- they didn't come from "outside" the method. And I agree that power is a huge problem for many (I even wrote an article about it, btw).



People like Alan Orr offer a method to remedy this situation and so naturally I'm interested in finding out what they teach. As most southern chinese MA are very similar in terms of power production I'm wondering if it is lifted from another art (eg Hung gar).


Since I too trained with Robert, I am familiar with his body structure methods. If you are interested in them, then you should visit Alan. My point is that Robert's body strucutre is not the only way to develop power in WCK. There are other methods (I've seen them firsthand). The problem is finding people who know them. ;) People can't teach what they can't do. So if you want to learn how to generate power in WCK, you need to find someone with real functional (they can make it work in fighting) power. Going to someone without functional power to learn how to develop your power is a waste of time. (Someone being able to "demonstrate" it doesn't mean it is functional power).

As most TCMA and Southern fist is not very fucntional, it hardly makes a lot of sense to "lift" one of their methods. ;)



As an aside, the TSK you are likely to have seen will be the public consumption made-up rubbish. HG is not taught openly and TSK is strictly in-door only. Its purpose is to entrain the neural pathways involved in punching mechanics. You could get a similar effect from olympic lifts I guess.

I've seen it and in my view, it won't develop "functional" power (it develops what I call "demo power"). Olympic lifts won't teach you how to use your body for WCK fighting. It's sort of like having power in boxing; it has more to do with kinetic chains, timing, etc. (*the motor program*) than gross muscularity (although muscular strength does play a role). One way to think about it is like driving a golf ball -- while strength is involved, the motor program of your swing is primary (and magnifies your strength).

Terence

[Nick Forrer]

Nick,

Have you trained with Steve Morris? I've only read his stuff and seen some of his DVDs but he has a very interesting perspective.

Terence

Hi Terence

Yes I've trained with him for a little over a year. He holds monthly seminars that run for about 4 hours. They are not so much about training as they are about learning how to train yourself. I dont know about his ground game but his clinch and striking are first rate. He also has a very very deep knowledge of body mechanics. The DVD to watch is NHB1 if you can get hold of it. If you want to ask me anything specifically about my experiences with Steve I will do my best to answer.

[anerlich]

Olympic lifts won't teach you how to use your body for WCK fighting. It's sort of like having power in boxing; it has more to do with kinetic chains, timing, etc. (*the motor program*) than gross muscularity (although muscular strength does play a role). One way to think about it is like driving a golf ball -- while strength is involved, the motor program of your swing is primary (and magnifies your strength).


Olympic lifts are more about kinetic chains, timing, etc. than gross muscularity. An effective snatch or C&J is about properly applied strength through sound technique.

You could argue that the OL technique doesn't apply to WCK fighting (or hitting hard); it's probably at least as relevant as the golf swing analogy, however, IMO.

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guy b

Thank you for your interest.

RE

Now the reason I stick with wing chun is that I believe it offers a good way of approaching certain types of situations. To borrow a bjj term, I think that it brings a higher level of "technique" to a standup striking situation not explicitly taught in many other MA. However it does suffer from the "wing chun has everything" syndrome. Basically I think this is rubbish. We don't see wing chun people winning many fighting events and when a wing chun person comes to train MMA with us they usually get pasted until they learn what to do and what not to do. The answers to everything are blatantly not in wing chun. The number one problem I see is lack of striking power.

Alan: Many of the points you are bring up are correct if you look around at what is currently thought of as 'wing chun', but the Chu Sau Lei system in my mind holds what is missing in most wing chun. Without the correct structural understanding you can never progress your own level. Its like teaching submissions only with no rolling time and no position training. You might have just idea of what you would like to do but you will never get it to work on your terms.

Structure as the Chu Sau Lei system sees it gives you control.

A lot wing chun that is taught is a style ie what someone taught them is what they teach you. A system is about why it works, when its works and how is works.

Then you know and you do it.

In terms of fighting, the chu sau lei system is battle testing in NHB/MMA and the main thing that has been seen is the power we can use in our striking. I, as you see this a a weakness in a lot of wing chun, but thats because the structure is wrong. When its right Wing Chun is very powerfull.


RE

People like Alan Orr offer a method to remedy this situation and so naturally I'm interested in finding out what they teach. As most southern chinese MA are very similar in terms of power production I'm wondering if it is lifted from another art (eg Hung gar).

Alan: It not lifted from any other art. It is the skill that some do have and don't know why, how, when. We do, so we can teach the deeper level of skill. Thats just my opinion of course. AS I said some do have it, but not many at all and I have never seen it taught until I started training with my teacher Robert Chu.

I look forward to meeting you Guy, maybe after we meet you can post your feedback.

My best

Alan


www.alanorr.com

[t_niehoff]

Hi Terence

Yes I've trained with him for a little over a year. He holds monthly seminars that run for about 4 hours. They are not so much about training as they are about learning how to train yourself. I dont know about his ground game but his clinch and striking are first rate. He also has a very very deep knowledge of body mechanics. The DVD to watch is NHB1 if you can get hold of it. If you want to ask me anything specifically about my experiences with Steve I will do my best to answer.

Nick,

Can you send me a PM with an email address, so we can talk about this off forum?

Thanks,

Terence

[stricker]

Hi Terence

Yes I've trained with him for a little over a year. He holds monthly seminars that run for about 4 hours. They are not so much about training as they are about learning how to train yourself. I dont know about his ground game but his clinch and striking are first rate. He also has a very very deep knowledge of body mechanics. The DVD to watch is NHB1 if you can get hold of it. If you want to ask me anything specifically about my experiences with Steve I will do my best to answer.Ive also been to one of steves monthly seminars [but missed nick :rolleyes:] i didn't really get enough of an impression to say much useful about him, but he's definitely got a lot of interesting ideas and training methods.