Shaolin in America

[hasayfu]

All the different posts about monks and buddhism as well as the christianity thread has inspired me to start a new thread.

What is/should Shaolin Temple Kung Fu training be like in the US?

Do people really train at the US Shaolin schools because they are taught by monks or because they are taught by instructors that were put through the rigorous training that makes up modern day Shaolin Kung Fu? No other TCMA has the virtuous monikor held over them (though some try to imply it).

In China, it is clear that only a select few at Shaolin are monks and that many of the monks don't do kung fu. Why is it so different here?

OK, I understand the early marketing of the first wave. Let's leave them aside for the moment. My kids are training with what Gene calls the third wave from Shaolin. They are very clear that they are not monks. Just trained at Shaolin. In fact some have tried to get them to have more buddhism in their school but they keep that seperate. As a practicing Christian, I feel no conflict here and not pushing the monk aspect hasn't seem to hurt "the business"

How do other Shaolin schools (Texas, Houston, etc) treat the monk issue?
How does the community feel about learning from a "non-monk"

Just curious

[The Xia]

I could really care less if a sifu is a monk or not. What I look for is if he is a good teacher with good Kung Fu. Period.
But I know that some people would prefer a monk because of the "coolness" factor associated with Shaolin monks due to legends, movies, TV shows, video games, etc.

[GeneChing]

Actually, hasayfu, I called Chen Fei a 2nd waver. See Shaolin’s Second Wave - Two Shaolin Disciples Found A Silicon Valley Start-Up in our 2004 January/February issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=436). His brethren at Shaolin Kung Fu Chan are more what I defined as 3rd wavers. It's a delicate distinction, I confess, but it was really more of an homage to Toffler (and a confession that I can't keep track of all the immigrant monks anymore). A major distinction I was making with my Shaolin Third Wave piece (in our 2007 Shaolin special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=687)) was that many Shaolin wuseng aren't wearing robes anymore - they aren't marketing that they're from Shaolin at all. The second wave de-emphasized Shaolin training. Some of the third wave don't even acknowledge it unless asked. I think that's a natural result of the rise in the biaoyanseng.

[hasayfu]

As you point out, Chen Fei blurs the distinction. He is clearly the 2nd wave based on when he arrived but he is in the fore front of what you define as the 3rd wave movement. He was also one of the youngest of the 2nd wavers.

As an example, it is very common for the Shaolin Kung Fu Chan bunch to get together and help each other out at a moments notice for shows or teaching even though they are not financially tied to each other. I really do like the brotherhood they've exhibited. From the outside, I think Chen Fei is one of the driving forces behind that cooperation.

[GeneChing]

...but you're right. That was another major point I was making with the third wave - the cooperation heretofore unseen with the Shaolin brotherhood.

We'll see if Chen Fei makes it into the fourth wave. I think I know what the fourth wave will be, and I'm not sure he'll qualify. Then again, Toffler only went to three, so I may abandon the concept entirely. ;)

[Li Ma-Keh]

To answer another part of the question,..I think that the 'monk' image as a selling point is BAD for business, as a long term projection. Too many people are buying 'robes & beads', claiming 'Monk-hood', and dirtying-up the name of Shao-Lin! Most people ,(the media driven public), don't even know that the words mean 'small - forest',...LOL'! Since 'most' American students don't speak Chinese,..I think it's kind of funny/sad that they chant Buddhist sayings, light & bow with incense,...etc.' Sort of' like the hip-hop/Rap kids' that aren't from the American Afro-American culture, getting all 'jiggy wit' it up in da hood',...yikes! Now, I'm not saying you have to be Chinese only, but if you are Seriuos about it, then learn how to speak Chinese,..learn what the cultural influences are to and behind such actions/rituals as; lighting incense and bowing three times,..or before you put a picture of the 'Kitchen God' (Tsoa Chun),in your house, understand why,..learn his name,..put it in the 'proper' place. Don't just take some Fung-Shuai practicioner's word for it. (But, that's just my opinion) I remember my Si-Fu travelling to China and being disalusioned' by the Non-Shao Lin appearence of the 'Coaches',...cigerette hanging from his lip,..old' American 80s' T-Shirt that said; Disco-Fever,..or something just as campy',..but Si-Fu said this Teacher/Coach was Excellent!! Look for the 'goods' not the cover'. Gong Xi, Li Ma-Keh

[Lokhopkuen]

I could really care less if a sifu is a monk or not. What I look for is if he is a good teacher with good Kung Fu. Period.
But I know that some people would prefer a monk because of the "coolness" factor associated with Shaolin monks due to legends, movies, TV shows, video games, etc.

Well said brother. Well said.

[Songshan]

hasayfu,

I train at Shi Xing Hao's school in Houston. I been there for a few years now. One of the main factors I started training there was yes because he was a "monk" (using the term loosely). I also researched the shaolin monks which peeked my interest before I started training there. I was already in martial arts (karate) when I found a Shaolin monk school. I started training Shaolin when Xing Hao was with Shi Deshan and there was only one shaolin school in Houston. For reasons that be, there are now four shaolin schools (led by four different monks) within close proximity of one another here in the China town area.

The Training

When I joined Shaolin here in Houston, I got a reality check. Here I was a karate student of two years learning kung fu. So I thought to myself "no problem" I can do this....even when it came to sparring. After my first week, I never experienced such intensity, hard work or sweat during training. Every part of my body literally hurt and was sore. "San Da" was basically our sparring at the monks school. Shi Deshan is a awesome sand da coach. Every karate technique I threw out there was countered by a take down and suddenly I was flat on my back...lots of times. It was something totally unexpected because take downs were not "legal" in karate sparring. I been hooked ever since. So I stayed with the school, learned shaolin, realized I didnt need a gym membership because I got a good complete packaged work out training at a Shaolin school.

I can't begin to tell you what a difference there was when I was training at a Western martial arts school compared to a TCMA school. The quality was different. It made me question the validity of some of these so called martial arts schools that exist around here.


The Monk Issue

As far as the monk issue goes....I get the feeling that the chinese community here in Houston recognizes the "monks" as Wuseng from Shaolin, nothing more. Houston is home to a very large and growing chinese community. Its Chinatown is nationally known for being one of its largest (aside from Ny and Ca). The Chinese community recognizes the "monks" as coming from Shaolin but focuses mainly on the martial arts/kung fu aspect.....not the monks as being these ordained religious monks. So there is a understanding of this here in Houston and for the most part the real vs fake monk debate is left alone. The majority of the student base here for the shaolin schools are Chinese.

As far as Xing Hao is concerned the monk issue is not "forced". Students are not required to shave their heads, wear robes or have to study Buddhism. The focus is more on Kung Fu and training. I know there are students of the other monks that post around here so they may give you insight about their school.

The Bottom Line

I hope this answered some of the questions you had. There are slim pickings here for TCMA schools in Houston. I can't help to get a chuckle out of those that flame shaolin and say its all wushu, fake, etc. They just don't have a clue. I think too many people focus on the wrong issues of the monks rather than what they have to offer.

[hasayfu]

Thanks songshan, that was well said and informative.

You mentioned 4 other shaolin schools in the area. Do they get along, keep to themselves or something else?

[Songshan]

Hasayfu,

For the most part every school mainly keep to themselves. However, some of the older students who have been training shaolin for a few years know each other and we exchange greetings when we see each other in passing. I think every monk has something special to offer and each have their own "specialty". It just depends on the student and what they want to learn.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

hi songshan
=)
just exchanging greeting to an old shaolin brother =)

[Songshan]

Hey PK!!!

How are ya? Where ya been !?! Hope all is well.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

im good songshan
just busy with school and work now
how about your self??
=D
ok no more spamming now...hahaha
back on topic

[zhangxihuan]

i'm of the feeling if you can't speak some chinese well, then you should NOT be able to teach kung fu. I know that may sound "cruel" or "unusual" but I think to maintain cultural integrity a "white person" who wants to teach should at least know the language properly. I think its sad when people who know little about chinese culture or language run a school. Usually the school lacks discipline, and the teacher doesn't have respect either for the students or the art itself. Chinese is NOT hard to learn (at least basic pre-school level)... Its rather pathetic when a teacher can't even count properly in Chinese (as my first "sifu" butchered the language)...


I think the whole "monk" thing is ok...just depends. I think if Americans have respect for the art they will respect their students and treat them as good as a foreign teacher would. The problem is many people lack basic respect. I'm not biased for or against "monks," since I dont personally know any. A lot of people say monks only train in wushu, or that wushu is crap, which is false by any standard. Many people who train in modern wushu also do traditional and know applications to the moves.

Wearing orange uniforms is a bit odd, but if that is what the owner wants, thenthats that.

I feel though that if you do not know basic Chinese history, language, or culture you should not be allowed to teach something as historically and cuturally important as Shaolin-kung fu.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

A lot of people say monks only train in wushu, or that wushu is crap, which is false by any standard. Many people who train in modern wushu also do traditional and know applications to the moves.




wow someone who know what he is talking about right there ^

[David Jamieson]

i'm of the feeling if you can't speak some chinese well, then you should NOT be able to teach kung fu. I know that may sound "cruel" or "unusual" but I think to maintain cultural integrity a "white person" who wants to teach should at least know the language properly. I think its sad when people who know little about chinese culture or language run a school. Usually the school lacks discipline, and the teacher doesn't have respect either for the students or the art itself. Chinese is NOT hard to learn (at least basic pre-school level)... Its rather pathetic when a teacher can't even count properly in Chinese (as my first "sifu" butchered the language)...


I think the whole "monk" thing is ok...just depends. I think if Americans have respect for the art they will respect their students and treat them as good as a foreign teacher would. The problem is many people lack basic respect. I'm not biased for or against "monks," since I dont personally know any. A lot of people say monks only train in wushu, or that wushu is crap, which is false by any standard. Many people who train in modern wushu also do traditional and know applications to the moves.

Wearing orange uniforms is a bit odd, but if that is what the owner wants, thenthats that.

I feel though that if you do not know basic Chinese history, language, or culture you should not be allowed to teach something as historically and cuturally important as Shaolin-kung fu.


wow. lol. A punch in the Face and kick in the Crotch knows no language.

How did the Chinese ever learn Buddhism? Did they have to all learn sanskrit? Pali? Hindi?

I agree that if one is gonna make attempts at uttering in another language , then they should know it, but I also know first hand that language is no barrier to learning martial arts. You can get good training without ever speaking a word.

As for monks...well, people gravitate to that, they wanna feel like they're somewhere doing something that fits their own preconception. Are they really for real? People still debate that. Is the training of any use? Sure it is, it is useful if that is what you want and that's all that matters isn't it?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I find the suggestion ZangXe posed to be quite laughable.

Did you know that many, if not most, monks can't read? And if they can, can only do so on an elementary level?

Also, as an English student, tutor, and professor-in-training, I can tell you that the most "educated" are not necessarily the best teachers. You have to have the ability to relate something the student does not know to that student. I wouldn't reinforce Tolstoy with Isaac Berlin to someone new to Tolstoy. I'd relate Tolstoy to various movies the student might have reference to. Why reference something they don't know to something else they don't know?

When I help show someone a high-block/clear, I tell them to wipe sweat off of their brow. It gives them a reference to a motion they know...gets them to rotate their forearm so that the top clears to the inside and the fist rotates out (most of us wipe sweat from our foreheads wit hthe tops of our forearms)........I don't stress the martial application until they get the wiping sweat motion.

[David Jamieson]

I'd relate Tolstoy to various movies the student might have reference to.

War and Peace is like in every movie, tv show, cartoon, etc etc ever made. It's almost too easy to find Tolstoy references in the culturally iconic stuff of the west.

[zhangxihuan]

then again we are not talking about "monks" but AMERICAN teachers. So what monks can't speak English? they can speak Chinese.....

true a kick or punch doesn't speak a language...but its pathetic to hear Chinese butchered so much as it is by "sifus" who are "white."

I guess its because American students in general are LAZY and dont want to put time in to learn anything other than what is minimally required for a martial art. (true- I've seen this at several "schools").

People who want to teach could at least listen to something as mundane as "Chinesepod" (which is free) to pronounce things correctly. Also how can one claim to have a full understanding of a culture or cultural martial art such as kung fu without a basic level in the language?

I know there are some non-chinese teachers who know a great deal, but, something is lost.

it would be the equivalent of attempting to learn to do Chinese calligraphy without knowing Chinese. sure you can write the character, you might be able to tell me what it means, or it may look good, but if you can't tell me the cultural context something about it will diminish along the way.....that is my point..

[David Jamieson]

while it is true that one cannot claim tio have experience and knowledge unless they actually have experience and knowledge, you tend to mix taht idea with general racist undertones.

ultimately, people aren't going to see your point, they will only see your racist remarks and it's on that which you will be judged.

when the only medium you have is the written word, such as here, you have to choose carefully what it is you are going to say if you want to say something that is gonna be taken seriously.

what about black people who use sun toys and wear court robes? how about native americans who do the same? and so on? why are "whites" the problem to you? How about indonesians who do japanese karate and call it shaolin? is that a problem?

see what I'm sayin? :)

[Shaolin Wookie]

How about indonesians who do japanese karate and call it shaolin? is that a problem?



:D DJ, you slippery tongued devil......

[Shaolin Wookie]

Look, Zhangxi......people in America don't even speak in the same vernacular. I moved from Detroit to Atlanta in '94......and I didn't understand at least 25 words and phrases tossed out regularly by locals (even other migrants). "My bad..." wasn't in northern use at the time, "fixin'" had me stumped.......things change with geographic shifts. It's not a bad thing. It's just different.

BTW, I'm white, and I don't speak chinese. I plan on learning it soon, and I butcher it when I speak it. I try.....

Really, though....languages describe things. What's more important? The language or the thing it describes?

[zhangxihuan]

well I am WHITE... does than answer your question? and I can speak CHINESE.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Many of us speak other languages as well. I speak four. The head of my system speaks something like 7.

I could probably speak to an ancient roman better than you:rolleyes: (very useful, I know:D ).......it's not integral to studying classics and ancient history, but it can be nice, at times. Although, I do think many English translations are far better than the originals.....:eek:

[Songshan]

well, to clear things up a little.....the USA is not a land that is exclusively english as its language. The melting pot of the world is versed in all different kinds of languages. If you come down to Houston and tour its china town, you will see street signs in english and written in chinese....even in some parts of downtown Houston.

I can remember when the first shaolin school hosted by two monks opened its doors in Houston. Niether spoke the english language. Grant it the student base of the shaolin schools are mainly chinese but as a "white" person in a chinese school it was interesting. Years later the monks learned english and we began studying chinese/mandarin. The point is language is not the issue. The issue is how bad you want to learn and how bad do you want it. Language is just another hurdle in the road.